Let's talk about the BIPOC board. March 20, 2025 2:33 AM Subscribe
I've been interested in the BIPOC board since they were an idea here in metatalk about three or four years ago. I've read all their minutes. I don't see much evidence of their continued existence and I'd like to know what people here think about that.
There is a link at the bottom of every metafilter page that links to the BIPOC board page, where their minutes are.
There was a meeting scheduled for Feb 22 2025. This meeting happened.
They haven't approved minutes for more than a year now. The One Year Anniversary was about three weeks ago. I'm not the first person to notice this- A brief history.
The reason given for them not approving minutes is that Everyone has full lives and there are international members.
They get paid $50 per meeting.
I couldn't tell you what this board does. I've been holding onto this post, because I keep thinking "Well, the minutes will show up tomorrow" but I have been wrong. I'm curious about what happened to this board and I'm curious about what else we could be doing to be inclusive.
There was a meeting scheduled for Feb 22 2025. This meeting happened.
They haven't approved minutes for more than a year now. The One Year Anniversary was about three weeks ago. I'm not the first person to notice this- A brief history.
The reason given for them not approving minutes is that Everyone has full lives and there are international members.
They get paid $50 per meeting.
I couldn't tell you what this board does. I've been holding onto this post, because I keep thinking "Well, the minutes will show up tomorrow" but I have been wrong. I'm curious about what happened to this board and I'm curious about what else we could be doing to be inclusive.
And I might suggest that rather than coming in here with excuses, any mod on duty might more profitably spend the next few hours actually tracking down the minutes and posting them.
Supposedly they are approved through at least December 2024 and have been ready for about three months, so the best and really the only thing staff can do here is to... publish them.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:54 AM on March 20 [7 favorites]
Supposedly they are approved through at least December 2024 and have been ready for about three months, so the best and really the only thing staff can do here is to... publish them.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:54 AM on March 20 [7 favorites]
MiraK's comment about the substance of the board's work is worth pasting here in full:
I used to be in the BIPOC board until shortly after this incident with n-p, and it was the direct precursor to me exiting the BIPOC board. That thread and its aftermath were a wake up call to me personally on how much of the work of the BIPOC board is theater, the fact that it exists just for the sake of existing "look, we have a BIPOC board!" - and how the board lacks both power and any semblance of an agenda.posted by Klipspringer at 6:58 AM on March 20 [18 favorites]
As far as I know there has been no BIPOC board acknowledgement or steps taken or any kind of movement from the board towards making the community better. What is the point of the board? Damned if I know. I was in it for over a year and I have no idea what we did during that time. There was such a vast gulf between the ability of the moderators who were members of the board vs. the non-moderators who were members of the board, specifically in our capacity to DO anything on the site, affect policy or effect change, hold anyone accountable, etc. that the non-moderator members might as well have not existed, not been on the board.
There was no way for the BIPOC board to address the harms to the community (let alone to individual MeFites like n-p) in the days and weeks following. The mods are not answerable to the BIPOC board. The BIPOC board has no effect on moderator decisions or policy. When n-p left, this became more clear to me than it had ever been.
Since I wasn't able to see any way to work to change policy to prevent what happened to n-p from happening again, I bowed out of the BIPOC board, and also been away from Metafilter since then. It's difficult for me to feel like a part of this community now.
MiraK's comment reposted above was the third strike in a series of mod events that shifted me from "these are but hapless good hearted people" to "leadership here is a farce and needs to go."
posted by phunniemee at 7:03 AM on March 20 [22 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 7:03 AM on March 20 [22 favorites]
Only strictly on the minutes, they are ready now but the lag has been trying to get approval from those attending including those no longer with the board. Only recently the board decided to have a final round of approval review/request with deadline attached (went with a generous timeline as this was a new instruction after all, and didn't want people to feel like they're forced to review something in a short period of turnaround), for those who haven't responded despite a few more followups. There's been some changes to what goes into the public minutes - the length that they used to be in contributed a lot to most of the runtime of previous meetings (and the email chains in between meetings) before December 2024 being spent on going over them. (Edit: to be clear, that left little time for other items) The new change has been in place since this year but not able to be posted owing to the approval pending mentioned above.
posted by cendawanita at 7:36 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:36 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
The staff’s failure to support the board or do even the most minimal work for them was the beginning of my realization that no one working for MetaFilter actually cared about MetaFilter as anything other than a paycheck. Which is fine, but at least do the work you’re paid to do, yeah? Over the time since that linked comment, I’ve hoped to be given a reason to reinstate my donation, but they’ve never given me one. MiraK’s comment (and the realization that the BIPOC board was 50% mods for much of its life) should have been a wake up call to everyone who wasn’t already aware that its mostly a grift at this point
posted by donnagirl at 7:45 AM on March 20 [13 favorites]
posted by donnagirl at 7:45 AM on March 20 [13 favorites]
I think even if the minutes were posted today that would not be enough to justify continuing this broken process. What would happen if we stop doing this and think of something else to do?
posted by Vatnesine at 7:59 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
posted by Vatnesine at 7:59 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
I would suggest to the Board that wanting to get a consensus approval is understandable, but not necessary and particularly in the case of people who have resigned from the Board -- I don't think it makes sense. You can pretty much assume that they have no real issues with the minutes if they haven't responded. It's even a little unfair to try to make them review the minutes given that they have, you know, resigned.
Obviously a lot of this is because regular order (minutes sent out with time for members to review before the next meeting, and a brief review/approval of minutes at the beginning of the subsequent meeting) hasn't happened. (As far as I or anyone else who's not staff or on the board knows, since... well, we haven't seen minutes.)
Unfortunately, if BIPOC wants to be effective it needs to step up and run its meetings independently, including the clerical work. You cannot depend on staff to provide the administrative work at this time, since they've repeatedly demonstrated their unwillingness or inability to do so.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:03 AM on March 20 [14 favorites]
Obviously a lot of this is because regular order (minutes sent out with time for members to review before the next meeting, and a brief review/approval of minutes at the beginning of the subsequent meeting) hasn't happened. (As far as I or anyone else who's not staff or on the board knows, since... well, we haven't seen minutes.)
Unfortunately, if BIPOC wants to be effective it needs to step up and run its meetings independently, including the clerical work. You cannot depend on staff to provide the administrative work at this time, since they've repeatedly demonstrated their unwillingness or inability to do so.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:03 AM on March 20 [14 favorites]
If I understand the regular order definition, yes that's definitely something that was done. (Edit: so not hearing back from attendees began even from that stage) In terms of last year's timeliness, there was a number of unplanned-due-to-IRL departures, that did impact the capacity of the board itself doing much of that admin work (which it did do).
The remaining members weren't those invited in who could do that, including MiraK, and myself, and I assume a main part of why she made her observations was because we're the cohort who wasn't part of the initial inception, and by the time we're in, those meeting minutes seem to dominate most of the runtime. I was on work travel for a number of meetings during the short season Brandon was part of the board, so I can't speak much as to what happened during then though, but MiraK can/could. I would say the makeup of the board being half mods happened in that short interval when I wasn't around. It used to be, when I joined, myself + 4 more members and meetings I were in was joined by Loup. For my experience, it's only recently that travelingthyme took back the role (I think related to their work schedule and the personal reasons, but I can't comment on that), and we've done quite a bit of work to resume what the board should be.
What would happen if we stop doing this and think of something else to do?
Sure, let's talk about it. Fwiw, the remaining board members don't actually check Talk or any other subsite but the Blue and sometimes Ask (me for example). We've been discussing on where to take this forward with that in mind.
posted by cendawanita at 8:17 AM on March 20 [6 favorites]
The remaining members weren't those invited in who could do that, including MiraK, and myself, and I assume a main part of why she made her observations was because we're the cohort who wasn't part of the initial inception, and by the time we're in, those meeting minutes seem to dominate most of the runtime. I was on work travel for a number of meetings during the short season Brandon was part of the board, so I can't speak much as to what happened during then though, but MiraK can/could. I would say the makeup of the board being half mods happened in that short interval when I wasn't around. It used to be, when I joined, myself + 4 more members and meetings I were in was joined by Loup. For my experience, it's only recently that travelingthyme took back the role (I think related to their work schedule and the personal reasons, but I can't comment on that), and we've done quite a bit of work to resume what the board should be.
What would happen if we stop doing this and think of something else to do?
Sure, let's talk about it. Fwiw, the remaining board members don't actually check Talk or any other subsite but the Blue and sometimes Ask (me for example). We've been discussing on where to take this forward with that in mind.
posted by cendawanita at 8:17 AM on March 20 [6 favorites]
I'm a clerk myself (for my church's vestry) and it's a pain in the ass to do the scut work but once you get into the rhythm of it it's fine. I think the board probably needs a designated secretary to take the notes and write up minutes if you don't have one already (it sounds like a staff person has been responsible for that in the past and possibly still is?)
I would also advise this for the governing board once it gets up and running.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:24 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
I would also advise this for the governing board once it gets up and running.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:24 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
it sounds like a staff person has been responsible for that in the past and possibly still is?
Oh no, before Nov 2024, that was a board member volunteering to do so (edit: apologies for the recall issue, there were 2). Now thyme has taken over, and they're actually ready, except for the pending approval bit as mentioned. Ironically I think the deadline to comment for a couple of those minutes just lapsed and those minutes would be up according to the site update schedule (unfortunately not something I have cared to know, so that's on me, if the explanation seems thin).
posted by cendawanita at 8:29 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
Oh no, before Nov 2024, that was a board member volunteering to do so (edit: apologies for the recall issue, there were 2). Now thyme has taken over, and they're actually ready, except for the pending approval bit as mentioned. Ironically I think the deadline to comment for a couple of those minutes just lapsed and those minutes would be up according to the site update schedule (unfortunately not something I have cared to know, so that's on me, if the explanation seems thin).
posted by cendawanita at 8:29 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
I feel we should perhaps worry less about the minutes in particular and more about the wider issue of the whole exercise being a waste of time.
posted by Phanx at 8:42 AM on March 20 [12 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 8:42 AM on March 20 [12 favorites]
Keep going. I do need to sleep though.
posted by cendawanita at 8:55 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 8:55 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
My mind is blown by reading justifications of the current state of affairs. The only sensible response to it taking thirteen months and counting to produce a read-out of a meeting is "yes we recognise this is obviously ludicrous".
How can anyone have confidence a group does anything of substance if it can't output a page of bullet points once a month?
The primary purpose of a board is to oversee actions. The primary purpose of minutes is to record agreed actions. At some point (approximately 12 months ago...) someone should have realised that any actions agreed at the February 2024 meeting have either been undertaken, so the minutes don't matter, or enough time has passed that the actions will realistically never be undertaken, in which case the minutes also don't matter. And instituted a rational process going forward which reliably outputs the absolute bare minimum of any board.
posted by Klipspringer at 8:58 AM on March 20 [22 favorites]
How can anyone have confidence a group does anything of substance if it can't output a page of bullet points once a month?
The primary purpose of a board is to oversee actions. The primary purpose of minutes is to record agreed actions. At some point (approximately 12 months ago...) someone should have realised that any actions agreed at the February 2024 meeting have either been undertaken, so the minutes don't matter, or enough time has passed that the actions will realistically never be undertaken, in which case the minutes also don't matter. And instituted a rational process going forward which reliably outputs the absolute bare minimum of any board.
posted by Klipspringer at 8:58 AM on March 20 [22 favorites]
Please post the minutes without approvals as they are a distraction from a larger problem. And then we can talk about what this board is supposed to be doing vs what they’ve done.
posted by Vatnesine at 9:01 AM on March 20 [15 favorites]
posted by Vatnesine at 9:01 AM on March 20 [15 favorites]
My confusion about this approval process is this: How realistic is it to expect people can accurately remember the details of a single meeting that happened more than a year ago?
If we want to be able to move past this kind of thing and get to real discussions about the purpose of the board, then posting them with notes of who has and has not approved them seems like the way to go for all of the missing minutes. Many people have said that approvals should be agenda item #1 at the next meeting. Again, seems like a good process.
posted by soelo at 9:47 AM on March 20 [9 favorites]
If we want to be able to move past this kind of thing and get to real discussions about the purpose of the board, then posting them with notes of who has and has not approved them seems like the way to go for all of the missing minutes. Many people have said that approvals should be agenda item #1 at the next meeting. Again, seems like a good process.
posted by soelo at 9:47 AM on March 20 [9 favorites]
Hold up. This is chock full of information.
The minutes are ready.
There was an approval deadline.
That deadline has passed.
There is a site update schedule, according to which the minutes should already be posted.
But they’re not up and people just don’t care?
This is actually worse than I thought.
posted by Vatnesine at 9:52 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
The minutes are ready.
There was an approval deadline.
That deadline has passed.
There is a site update schedule, according to which the minutes should already be posted.
But they’re not up and people just don’t care?
This is actually worse than I thought.
posted by Vatnesine at 9:52 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
Pick a trusted board secretary. They are a non voting member. Send the minutes out with a short time limit for response. Change the bylaws so you can post draft minutes. Post them. If any board member has an objection, the minutes can be changed and posted as amended with the change noted.
posted by mygothlaundry at 10:11 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
posted by mygothlaundry at 10:11 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
Can anyone involved with this board post a very brief introduction to what the board has done in the last couple years? It is difficult for anyone here to understand what the board does when the only output we've seen over the last year or so was the weird rice cooker post, which it turns out wasn't actually approved by the board.
Fundamentally, the political power to either put this board on haitus until we can figure out what to do about it or to push for change seems to rest with the site's interim board. And since that board doesn't seem to be able or willing to set a timeline for elections, the members here appear to have little power to change anything.
posted by ssg at 10:38 AM on March 20 [17 favorites]
Fundamentally, the political power to either put this board on haitus until we can figure out what to do about it or to push for change seems to rest with the site's interim board. And since that board doesn't seem to be able or willing to set a timeline for elections, the members here appear to have little power to change anything.
posted by ssg at 10:38 AM on March 20 [17 favorites]
Yeah, the two boards I am on receive the minutes after each meeting, and vote to amend/accept them at the next monthly meeting -- then they are finalized and recorded. Done and dusted.
Former members are gone, so they have no vote on the contents.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:56 PM on March 20 [8 favorites]
Former members are gone, so they have no vote on the contents.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:56 PM on March 20 [8 favorites]
Can anyone involved with this board post a very brief introduction to what the board has done in the last couple years?
It's just as important to ask what the BIPOC Board is actually empowered to do. The Board was established after several posts on the blue went wildly, racist-ly sideways in 2019 (?), but has never had the authority to actually enact change (much less to advise mods to reword racist rice cooker posts, or to change their moderation approach). Yes, it's important to hold advisory committees like the BIPOC Board accountable, but it's equally important that those committees are empowered to actually do things — not just to wokewash actions of the proverbial "white moderate" and their allies who maintain the status quo. After a few years of this, it's no wonder that the BIPOC Board isn't especially engaged, and that formerly active members have stepped down.
I agree with those who are concerned about the Board's lack of track record — but rather than playing into the hands of the current political climate, we need to be discussing how to make the BIPOC Board more effective without losing sight of 1) Its mission, and 2) The constraints imposed upon it that limit, or enable, that mission. Without that, we're not seeing the forest for the trees.
posted by knucklebones at 1:18 PM on March 20 [20 favorites]
It's just as important to ask what the BIPOC Board is actually empowered to do. The Board was established after several posts on the blue went wildly, racist-ly sideways in 2019 (?), but has never had the authority to actually enact change (much less to advise mods to reword racist rice cooker posts, or to change their moderation approach). Yes, it's important to hold advisory committees like the BIPOC Board accountable, but it's equally important that those committees are empowered to actually do things — not just to wokewash actions of the proverbial "white moderate" and their allies who maintain the status quo. After a few years of this, it's no wonder that the BIPOC Board isn't especially engaged, and that formerly active members have stepped down.
I agree with those who are concerned about the Board's lack of track record — but rather than playing into the hands of the current political climate, we need to be discussing how to make the BIPOC Board more effective without losing sight of 1) Its mission, and 2) The constraints imposed upon it that limit, or enable, that mission. Without that, we're not seeing the forest for the trees.
posted by knucklebones at 1:18 PM on March 20 [20 favorites]
Yeah I chair a couple of boards and everyone gets draft minutes as soon as possible after the meetings, with a deadline of a couple of weeks to make any changes or corrections. We then circulate the revised versions at least a week before the next meeting and we vote to approve them in session. If you don't speak up you are deemed to have accepted the text.
In the rare instance that somebody raises a substantive issue with the draft for approval, we amend the document at the meeting. It's even more rare that someone is still is unhappy with something that is or isn't recorded after the rest of the group reaches consensus, we can put a note to the effect of "Member X asked that point Y be put on the record [despite contrary views from the rest of those present]."
It's ridiculous that minutes would be held up for months for things like this, but it's a symptom of much larger issues. The place needs proper management and governance ASAP. None of these things are rocket science but if they don't happen, we're going to keep having the same discussions over and over again.
posted by rpfields at 1:25 PM on March 20 [14 favorites]
In the rare instance that somebody raises a substantive issue with the draft for approval, we amend the document at the meeting. It's even more rare that someone is still is unhappy with something that is or isn't recorded after the rest of the group reaches consensus, we can put a note to the effect of "Member X asked that point Y be put on the record [despite contrary views from the rest of those present]."
It's ridiculous that minutes would be held up for months for things like this, but it's a symptom of much larger issues. The place needs proper management and governance ASAP. None of these things are rocket science but if they don't happen, we're going to keep having the same discussions over and over again.
posted by rpfields at 1:25 PM on March 20 [14 favorites]
There’s no processes in place to “fix things” so I don’t necessarily hold it against the BIPOC board that they didn’t fix anything. But they could have made posts or commented on various topics or just been **visible** in the past three years since they were created and they have not even done that. The last minutes I saw they were still figuring out what to do, after existing for 2-3 years.
I’m still working on why this bugs me so much.
posted by Vatnesine at 2:31 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
I’m still working on why this bugs me so much.
posted by Vatnesine at 2:31 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
Beyond tired of every MeTa turning into a "Let's attack the mods" post. You're attacking them because you want them to fix racism. What makes you think they can fix racism when the entire world can't? They can't make the whole world unicorns and puppies any more than you or I can.
posted by Melismata at 2:57 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 2:57 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
That's not why anyone is criticizing the BIPOC minutes situation. Go reread the thread.
posted by Bugbread at 3:18 PM on March 20 [27 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 3:18 PM on March 20 [27 favorites]
You're wrong.
posted by Diskeater at 3:19 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
posted by Diskeater at 3:19 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
I'm thinking the idea of having one page with all the committees, the elections, the boards. perhaps this is coded into the new interface but we need something.
posted by clavdivs at 3:31 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 3:31 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
Mod note: I'm thinking the idea of having one page with all the committees, the elections, the boards.
I am working today on a General Information page that does things like this, it'll be mentioned in the Site Update, which is running a little late (should have been posted this week but waiting on some information)
The site update should happen by Wednesday of next week at the very latest. If it doesn't, mods will make a post a MeTa explaining the delay.]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:44 PM on March 20
I am working today on a General Information page that does things like this, it'll be mentioned in the Site Update, which is running a little late (should have been posted this week but waiting on some information)
The site update should happen by Wednesday of next week at the very latest. If it doesn't, mods will make a post a MeTa explaining the delay.]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:44 PM on March 20
Clarifying just one part of this discussion as someone who was on the board from inception (Sep 19, 2020) until Oct 19, 2024, to help fill in some information gaps:
tivalasvegas asked
I think the board probably needs a designated secretary to take the notes and write up minutes if you don't have one already (it sounds like a staff person has been responsible for that in the past and possibly still is?)
cendawanita responded
Oh no, before Nov 2024, that was a board member volunteering to do so (edit: apologies for the recall issue, there were 2).
This wasn't quite the case. From inception in 2020 until April/May 2023, a staff person was responsible for taking notes and writing minutes, with other members and attendees welcome to comment and suggest edits. The final meeting minutes published were reviewed and approved by all attendees of the respective meetings. There was no other designated or default secretary/notetaker besides the staff person.
Around April 2023, the staff person requested additional support from board members for compiling the minutes, and the board was in agreement that the minutes workflow should be revamped. The board decided that meeting minutes should be taken and compiled collaboratively by all members, with members filling in notes during the meeting and making edits in the week after. (The new workflow was detailed in April 2023's minutes - item 7.) There were no specifically-designated members for minute-taking (or rather no members for whom minute-taking was a mandatory task): with varying schedules and capacities for notetaking and asynchronous work, members would contribute what they could on a meeting-to-meeting basis, although some were able to help more often and more consistently. The final meeting minutes published continued to be reviewed and approved by all attendees of the respective meetings.
When I left the board in Oct last year this was more or less still the official policy and workflow at that time, although I know the board was also keen to make more adjustments and improvements to the workflow. I appreciate the current board's efforts to figure this out, especially in light of the personnel changes that have taken place over the past year or so.
posted by aielen at 3:45 PM on March 20 [8 favorites]
tivalasvegas asked
I think the board probably needs a designated secretary to take the notes and write up minutes if you don't have one already (it sounds like a staff person has been responsible for that in the past and possibly still is?)
cendawanita responded
Oh no, before Nov 2024, that was a board member volunteering to do so (edit: apologies for the recall issue, there were 2).
This wasn't quite the case. From inception in 2020 until April/May 2023, a staff person was responsible for taking notes and writing minutes, with other members and attendees welcome to comment and suggest edits. The final meeting minutes published were reviewed and approved by all attendees of the respective meetings. There was no other designated or default secretary/notetaker besides the staff person.
Around April 2023, the staff person requested additional support from board members for compiling the minutes, and the board was in agreement that the minutes workflow should be revamped. The board decided that meeting minutes should be taken and compiled collaboratively by all members, with members filling in notes during the meeting and making edits in the week after. (The new workflow was detailed in April 2023's minutes - item 7.) There were no specifically-designated members for minute-taking (or rather no members for whom minute-taking was a mandatory task): with varying schedules and capacities for notetaking and asynchronous work, members would contribute what they could on a meeting-to-meeting basis, although some were able to help more often and more consistently. The final meeting minutes published continued to be reviewed and approved by all attendees of the respective meetings.
When I left the board in Oct last year this was more or less still the official policy and workflow at that time, although I know the board was also keen to make more adjustments and improvements to the workflow. I appreciate the current board's efforts to figure this out, especially in light of the personnel changes that have taken place over the past year or so.
posted by aielen at 3:45 PM on March 20 [8 favorites]
There is a list of staff and committees, though it's kind of hidden in the FAQ. There should be a staff page, with a link in the footer. Which by the way still has a link to the defunct Steering Committee.
posted by zompist at 3:58 PM on March 20 [1 favorite]
posted by zompist at 3:58 PM on March 20 [1 favorite]
Mod note: There is a list of staff and committees...
That's the page I mentioned a few comments ago and since it's publicly visible now, just gonna leave it so. Was waiting for confirmation on who is currently on the BiPOC committee, which I got about 30 minutes ago.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:06 PM on March 20
That's the page I mentioned a few comments ago and since it's publicly visible now, just gonna leave it so. Was waiting for confirmation on who is currently on the BiPOC committee, which I got about 30 minutes ago.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:06 PM on March 20
Does the BIPOC board report to the interim board? Have they ever done so? Or does the BIPOC board report to staff and if so, how do they report to staff? How does the output of their meetings effect change on the site, in other words?
posted by ssg at 4:22 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
posted by ssg at 4:22 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
I wish I was surprised that this is the state of affairs with the BIPOC board, but... it's increasingly obvious that all the past "we're going to do better" talk was just that: talk, designed to get the troublesome folks (meaning non-white, non-cis folks) to shut up and accept whatever crumbs might happen to fall their way.
posted by maryellenreads at 4:27 PM on March 20 [10 favorites]
posted by maryellenreads at 4:27 PM on March 20 [10 favorites]
Beyond tired of every MeTa turning into a "Let's attack the mods" post. You're attacking them because you want them to fix racism. What makes you think they can fix racism when the entire world can't? They can't make the whole world unicorns and puppies any more than you or I can.
Well, that's certainly a take.
posted by maryellenreads at 4:31 PM on March 20 [13 favorites]
Well, that's certainly a take.
posted by maryellenreads at 4:31 PM on March 20 [13 favorites]
(still speaking for myself)
Does the BIPOC board report to the interim board?
Not as far as I know.
I appreciate the call to be more present. I know I have personally pointed out that I don't hang out anywhere else but the main site (the Blue) when invited to join the board + I'm not a Western-residing minority just a global southie, but I did in the end decided to stay on (and take aielen's recollection as fact as I joined much later in 2023). I don't behave as though I'm representing any body though, but I would say my contributions there as a commenter/member have been heavy on representing a non-western viewpoint. For reasons due to site culture (a greater issue than the mods) however, the remaining board members inc myself have opted to further reduce our participation here - this has been what's on my mind when it comes to being more aware of what's going on, talking about the same things/dynamics which's led us to reduce participation here in the first place.
posted by cendawanita at 4:42 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
Does the BIPOC board report to the interim board?
Not as far as I know.
I appreciate the call to be more present. I know I have personally pointed out that I don't hang out anywhere else but the main site (the Blue) when invited to join the board + I'm not a Western-residing minority just a global southie, but I did in the end decided to stay on (and take aielen's recollection as fact as I joined much later in 2023). I don't behave as though I'm representing any body though, but I would say my contributions there as a commenter/member have been heavy on representing a non-western viewpoint. For reasons due to site culture (a greater issue than the mods) however, the remaining board members inc myself have opted to further reduce our participation here - this has been what's on my mind when it comes to being more aware of what's going on, talking about the same things/dynamics which's led us to reduce participation here in the first place.
posted by cendawanita at 4:42 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
You're attacking them because you want them to fix racism.
Always a hot take with this one
posted by donnagirl at 5:14 PM on March 20 [13 favorites]
Always a hot take with this one
posted by donnagirl at 5:14 PM on March 20 [13 favorites]
Cendawanita, can you clarify: when you say the remaining board members inc myself have opted to further reduce our participation here does “here” mean MetaTalk or Metafilter in general?
posted by Vatnesine at 5:27 PM on March 20
posted by Vatnesine at 5:27 PM on March 20
Either way, that seems exactly like the sort of scenario where the board should make a recommendation to ameliorate that, and the mods should respond to it. Hard to say if that in fact happened in the absence of minutes, though.
posted by sagc at 5:31 PM on March 20
posted by sagc at 5:31 PM on March 20
Mefi in general.
posted by cendawanita at 5:44 PM on March 20
posted by cendawanita at 5:44 PM on March 20
This is MeFi's loss, I'm sorry to hear it
posted by ginger.beef at 6:29 PM on March 20 [11 favorites]
posted by ginger.beef at 6:29 PM on March 20 [11 favorites]
It is MeFi's loss, but it's important to note that the loss happened a long time ago, and was very quiet.
If the BIPOC board members are souring on Metafilter...
and they don't care enough to post minutes...
and they haven't done anything...
... what if we stopped doing it? Let's stop.
posted by Vatnesine at 8:09 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
If the BIPOC board members are souring on Metafilter...
and they don't care enough to post minutes...
and they haven't done anything...
... what if we stopped doing it? Let's stop.
posted by Vatnesine at 8:09 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
I don't think they don't care enough and I don't think they haven't done anything, but I think the overall point is worth considering if the current structure is just causing burnout among BIPOC board members without a lot of forward progress (for whatever reason).
Maybe it does make sense to dissolve it for now and reconstitute something that better meets the needs that were identified in the creation of the BIPOC board. At this point, I don't have an opinion one way or the other, but it's worth thinking about.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:16 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
Maybe it does make sense to dissolve it for now and reconstitute something that better meets the needs that were identified in the creation of the BIPOC board. At this point, I don't have an opinion one way or the other, but it's worth thinking about.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:16 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
Appreciate the concern but the board isn't why I'm gearing down. Should I retype my comments? Did I indicate people didn't care enough to post minutes? I did say site culture. I did also say I don't make a habit of checking Talk. I did say that if I'm active it's on the Blue. For the record I'm just a holdout at this point when it comes to dealing with Westerners' casually validating the point of view of a genocidal state across random threads while staying well out of the ones where the crimes are documented.
posted by cendawanita at 8:34 PM on March 20 [17 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:34 PM on March 20 [17 favorites]
I didn't realize participating in the board is to be the class prefect. I say that sarcastically but I'm also literal-minded enough to ask if that's really what people want, because sure, let's talk about it.
posted by cendawanita at 8:38 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:38 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
Let's go back to the first "Hearing from our members of color" thread on MetaTalk. That thread came about as a result of jj's.mama buttoning because her post about an incident of racism was deleted for being "outragefilter" (MetaTalk thread). cortex acknowledged it was a bad decision and apologised to jj's.mama for "the crappy experience."
In many ways, this echoes the recent deletion of nouvelle-personne's comments, which also resulted in an apology. Both deletions happened because a mod was oversensitive to reading about racism experienced by Black people, especially when written without a special regard for non-Black people's comfort.
Ok, back to 2019. In that thread, divabat shared links to discussions of racism going back to 2001. There was wide acknowledgment that the MetaFilter community had problems with racism. Many of us believed that the moderators failed to address racism or, sometimes, actively perpetuated it. We had three more BIPOC-only threads (two, three, four).
Somewhere in that first POC-only thread, Brandon Blatcher (before he was a moderator) proposed on a whim that "mefites of color organize themselves into a small board/group/whatever and present a bi-monthly/quarterly report to the mods via MeTa on how PoC issues on the site are going" and also mentioned "If a PoC mod is hired at some point, [...]".
After the first POC-only thread, cortex decided to hire a POC mod and eventually hired travelingthyme part-time, who created the BIPOC board "as an intentional space and tool for addressing the ongoing concerns of the site."
Acknowledging the problem is the first step toward accountability.
posted by ftrtts at 6:39 AM on March 21 [19 favorites]
In many ways, this echoes the recent deletion of nouvelle-personne's comments, which also resulted in an apology. Both deletions happened because a mod was oversensitive to reading about racism experienced by Black people, especially when written without a special regard for non-Black people's comfort.
Ok, back to 2019. In that thread, divabat shared links to discussions of racism going back to 2001. There was wide acknowledgment that the MetaFilter community had problems with racism. Many of us believed that the moderators failed to address racism or, sometimes, actively perpetuated it. We had three more BIPOC-only threads (two, three, four).
Somewhere in that first POC-only thread, Brandon Blatcher (before he was a moderator) proposed on a whim that "mefites of color organize themselves into a small board/group/whatever and present a bi-monthly/quarterly report to the mods via MeTa on how PoC issues on the site are going" and also mentioned "If a PoC mod is hired at some point, [...]".
After the first POC-only thread, cortex decided to hire a POC mod and eventually hired travelingthyme part-time, who created the BIPOC board "as an intentional space and tool for addressing the ongoing concerns of the site."
I wish I was surprised that this is the state of affairs with the BIPOC board, but... it's increasingly obvious that all the past "we're going to do better" talk was just that: talk, designed to get the troublesome folks (meaning non-white, non-cis folks) to shut up and accept whatever crumbs might happen to fall their way.The BIPOC board always seemed like an attempt to address the problems of people of color without reckoning with racism. The original BIPOC board announcement doesn't mention racism. It only mentions race in the context of the members of the board. It promised "tangible and sustainable results." To what end? It's the bureaucratic equivalent of trying to moderate racism without making white people uncomfortable.
Acknowledging the problem is the first step toward accountability.
posted by ftrtts at 6:39 AM on March 21 [19 favorites]
I didn't realize participating in the board is to be the class prefect. I say that sarcastically but I'm also literal-minded enough to ask if that's really what people want, because sure, let's talk about it.
Speaking for myself, here's what I'd like to see: a workable and effective strategy to address ongoing issues that have been or will be identified by BIPOC MeFites.
I don't have a problem making the assumption that the establishment of the BIPOC committee was a good-faith attempt to address this. That being said, there have been serious problems with how that has worked out; I think pretty much everyone would agree that we haven't seen the results that we had been hoping for from this. Assigning fault or blame is probably not particularly helpful here, but we do need to look dispassionately at what the problems are and how they can be addressed.
I would add to the above list that I'd like to see a situation where BIPOC people who volunteer for the board don't get burnt out. Almost by definition these are the people who have demonstrated the highest commitment to addressing this issue, and while the committee may or may not have made every decision perfectly, the fact that burnout and stepping-back or resigning is an ongoing issue for them is not good and needs to be addressed as well.
BIPOC committee members shouldn't have to feel like they are "prefects" or like they need to spend a bunch of time monitoring contentious MeTas to explain or defend stuff. So part of the solution is figuring out how to build and maintain regular and workable/sustainable lines of communication between the community and the committee, whether it continues to exist in the general current format or changes in some way.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:06 AM on March 21 [5 favorites]
Speaking for myself, here's what I'd like to see: a workable and effective strategy to address ongoing issues that have been or will be identified by BIPOC MeFites.
I don't have a problem making the assumption that the establishment of the BIPOC committee was a good-faith attempt to address this. That being said, there have been serious problems with how that has worked out; I think pretty much everyone would agree that we haven't seen the results that we had been hoping for from this. Assigning fault or blame is probably not particularly helpful here, but we do need to look dispassionately at what the problems are and how they can be addressed.
I would add to the above list that I'd like to see a situation where BIPOC people who volunteer for the board don't get burnt out. Almost by definition these are the people who have demonstrated the highest commitment to addressing this issue, and while the committee may or may not have made every decision perfectly, the fact that burnout and stepping-back or resigning is an ongoing issue for them is not good and needs to be addressed as well.
BIPOC committee members shouldn't have to feel like they are "prefects" or like they need to spend a bunch of time monitoring contentious MeTas to explain or defend stuff. So part of the solution is figuring out how to build and maintain regular and workable/sustainable lines of communication between the community and the committee, whether it continues to exist in the general current format or changes in some way.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:06 AM on March 21 [5 favorites]
Clarification note: when people talk about being a “prefect”, I think this means that they feel as if they are being role models / held to a higher standard.
It’s not a common American word, let me know if I’m misunderstanding.
posted by Vatnesine at 7:24 AM on March 21 [1 favorite]
It’s not a common American word, let me know if I’m misunderstanding.
posted by Vatnesine at 7:24 AM on March 21 [1 favorite]
hello, artist formerly known as divabat here
Man, looking back at that PoC only thread is a trip. I fought so hard for there to be PoC mods. Willing to burn everything down for it too. And look, we have PoC mods now!
But did that actually bring about any of the changes I was predicting would happen? Not really. Now there's just threads upon threads about how the mods are failing Metafilter somehow, then this one, and it doesn't seem like PoC members are feeling any more comfortable posting here even with greater representation within the mod base.
Wonder why that is tbh :( I did button divabat and take a break from Mefi for a couple of years before returning, looks like a lot happened in between.
posted by creatrixtiara at 7:39 AM on March 21 [13 favorites]
Man, looking back at that PoC only thread is a trip. I fought so hard for there to be PoC mods. Willing to burn everything down for it too. And look, we have PoC mods now!
But did that actually bring about any of the changes I was predicting would happen? Not really. Now there's just threads upon threads about how the mods are failing Metafilter somehow, then this one, and it doesn't seem like PoC members are feeling any more comfortable posting here even with greater representation within the mod base.
Wonder why that is tbh :( I did button divabat and take a break from Mefi for a couple of years before returning, looks like a lot happened in between.
posted by creatrixtiara at 7:39 AM on March 21 [13 favorites]
A prefect at my school was a student elected by their house who headed up the house and also came to talk to you if your bad behaviour was resulting in losing too many house points, because everyone wanted to win the House Cup at the end of the year. It was an internally-prestigious but really a pain in the butt role.
(Wasn't Hogwarts, no.)
(I was in Cody in case anyone from my high school is lurking. :))
posted by warriorqueen at 7:42 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
(Wasn't Hogwarts, no.)
(I was in Cody in case anyone from my high school is lurking. :))
posted by warriorqueen at 7:42 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
I didn't realize participating in the board is to be the class prefect. I say that sarcastically but I'm also literal-minded enough to ask if that's really what people want, because sure, let's talk about it.
posted by cendawanita
I think I understand this, you do feel like as a person with direct knowledge of a situation, that you become the focus of the conversation. You wanted to provide facts and now people expect you to provide answers to things that are outside of your experience or about things that happened before you even joined. I see that pattern a lot with interim board members and people like kirkaracha when they speak up in meta. They're trying to help out but have to deal with a lot of overlapping frustrations from people, which are usually justified frustrations but not always useful in the specific conversation being had.
As always, it is not even clear who can make a decision here. Who is empowered to do so, who is ethically right in doing so, and who will actually do so. It is just a spiral of increasing decisions - should this decision be made before the board elections or after?
posted by soelo at 7:52 AM on March 21 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita
I think I understand this, you do feel like as a person with direct knowledge of a situation, that you become the focus of the conversation. You wanted to provide facts and now people expect you to provide answers to things that are outside of your experience or about things that happened before you even joined. I see that pattern a lot with interim board members and people like kirkaracha when they speak up in meta. They're trying to help out but have to deal with a lot of overlapping frustrations from people, which are usually justified frustrations but not always useful in the specific conversation being had.
As always, it is not even clear who can make a decision here. Who is empowered to do so, who is ethically right in doing so, and who will actually do so. It is just a spiral of increasing decisions - should this decision be made before the board elections or after?
posted by soelo at 7:52 AM on March 21 [4 favorites]
Somewhere in that first POC-only thread, Brandon Blatcher (before he was a moderator) proposed on a whim that...
Ok, here's my current ideas based on the years since then and being a mod and being a person who doesn't like meetings, though realizes they are important:
Find several people to work on BIPOC issues. This is critical, 'cause in my experience of doing things on MeFi and watching things be done, having several people helps to keep the project moving forward or make the inevitable stalls short ('cause volunteering on MeFi tends to take up more time than people originally guess).
Start tracking on site racist issues/incidents via a Google Sheet. Set up an email that people can report incidents to and keep tracking them. Do this for several months to get an idea of the current situation regarding BIPOC issue.
Or publish a report of the incidents every month, via MeTa to educate people or at least illustrate what the issues are. 'Cause not every POC may have the same thoughts about a particular incident and Non-POC people are blind to most of these incidents. If going this route, have a firm deadline, like every third Monday of the month and stick to it religiously, no matter what. Consistency is important. It's ok to leave things out to meet the deadline. Having a report with only one
It may be tempting to start with solution, like the BIPOC board should do X, but I think having incidents that illustrate what's going would be more helpful to start with and from there people can formulate what an end or ongoing goal is. "Stopping racism on the site" is a good goal, but impossible. "Pointing out incidents of racism to those who do them and the community itself" is more attainable goal because it's specific.
I loved Jessamyn's cooter clock and have often thought something similar should be adopted for BIPOC issues.
I would keep meetings to a minimum, because they take time, always go longer than you think, are notoriously difficult to coordinate with people from around the globe, and time is a limited resource when you're volunteering.
As always, it is not even clear who can make a decision here. Who is empowered to do so, who is ethically right in doing so, and who will actually do so. It is just a spiral of increasing decisions - should this decision be made before the board elections or after?
I'd recommend deciding on a course of action, talk with the current BIPOD members about it and move forward. No need to wait for moderators or Board members.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:22 AM on March 21
Ok, here's my current ideas based on the years since then and being a mod and being a person who doesn't like meetings, though realizes they are important:
Find several people to work on BIPOC issues. This is critical, 'cause in my experience of doing things on MeFi and watching things be done, having several people helps to keep the project moving forward or make the inevitable stalls short ('cause volunteering on MeFi tends to take up more time than people originally guess).
Start tracking on site racist issues/incidents via a Google Sheet. Set up an email that people can report incidents to and keep tracking them. Do this for several months to get an idea of the current situation regarding BIPOC issue.
Or publish a report of the incidents every month, via MeTa to educate people or at least illustrate what the issues are. 'Cause not every POC may have the same thoughts about a particular incident and Non-POC people are blind to most of these incidents. If going this route, have a firm deadline, like every third Monday of the month and stick to it religiously, no matter what. Consistency is important. It's ok to leave things out to meet the deadline. Having a report with only one
It may be tempting to start with solution, like the BIPOC board should do X, but I think having incidents that illustrate what's going would be more helpful to start with and from there people can formulate what an end or ongoing goal is. "Stopping racism on the site" is a good goal, but impossible. "Pointing out incidents of racism to those who do them and the community itself" is more attainable goal because it's specific.
I loved Jessamyn's cooter clock and have often thought something similar should be adopted for BIPOC issues.
I would keep meetings to a minimum, because they take time, always go longer than you think, are notoriously difficult to coordinate with people from around the globe, and time is a limited resource when you're volunteering.
As always, it is not even clear who can make a decision here. Who is empowered to do so, who is ethically right in doing so, and who will actually do so. It is just a spiral of increasing decisions - should this decision be made before the board elections or after?
I'd recommend deciding on a course of action, talk with the current BIPOD members about it and move forward. No need to wait for moderators or Board members.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:22 AM on March 21
Eh I'm not a fan of the "report on racist incidents for education" idea. We already have that in the form of Metatalk threads, and as one of my divabat-era comments shows, we've had more than enough opportunity for education.
The issue here is systemic change, especially from leadership. That's why the board was formed to begin with. The Incidents are symptoms. Doing a report without actually making any structural meaningful change is just busywork.
Also there's something very cop-like about it that doesn't sit right with me.
posted by creatrixtiara at 8:49 AM on March 21 [9 favorites]
The issue here is systemic change, especially from leadership. That's why the board was formed to begin with. The Incidents are symptoms. Doing a report without actually making any structural meaningful change is just busywork.
Also there's something very cop-like about it that doesn't sit right with me.
posted by creatrixtiara at 8:49 AM on March 21 [9 favorites]
Also there's something very cop-like about it that doesn't sit right with me.
Part of my work involves working on racial equity projects and culture change, and one of the other equity managers and I were talking about how we don't want to be "the racism police." It's not helpful to the culture, because it makes everyone defensive and anxious about being called out, and as creatrixitiara says, it doesn't create meaningful change.
What authority would a BIPOC board (committee?) have/do they have now? It seems like there should be structures and policies in place about what they have jurisdiction over and how they're interacting with the Board and moderators. It didn't seem like the mods or owner was listening to them previously. Given that we're still waiting on the Board taking any real authority, I don't think there's much possibility for creating structures of authority right now. Absent that, they're basically stuck playing an activist/advocacy role and trying to convince other people to do things. Which is fine and useful, if that's what they want to do, but that doesn't seem like the site should benefit from the illusion that it has a "board" guiding its way around racism on the site.
posted by lapis at 9:12 AM on March 21 [7 favorites]
Part of my work involves working on racial equity projects and culture change, and one of the other equity managers and I were talking about how we don't want to be "the racism police." It's not helpful to the culture, because it makes everyone defensive and anxious about being called out, and as creatrixitiara says, it doesn't create meaningful change.
What authority would a BIPOC board (committee?) have/do they have now? It seems like there should be structures and policies in place about what they have jurisdiction over and how they're interacting with the Board and moderators. It didn't seem like the mods or owner was listening to them previously. Given that we're still waiting on the Board taking any real authority, I don't think there's much possibility for creating structures of authority right now. Absent that, they're basically stuck playing an activist/advocacy role and trying to convince other people to do things. Which is fine and useful, if that's what they want to do, but that doesn't seem like the site should benefit from the illusion that it has a "board" guiding its way around racism on the site.
posted by lapis at 9:12 AM on March 21 [7 favorites]
Absent that, they're basically stuck playing an activist/advocacy role and trying to convince other people to do things.
Unless I've missed something, the BIPOC board is definitely not playing an activist/advocacy role (because that would be visible on the site). So unless the board is giving feedback to mods via travelingthyme, it's not entirely clear what they are doing.
posted by ssg at 9:57 AM on March 21
Unless I've missed something, the BIPOC board is definitely not playing an activist/advocacy role (because that would be visible on the site). So unless the board is giving feedback to mods via travelingthyme, it's not entirely clear what they are doing.
posted by ssg at 9:57 AM on March 21
Regarding "cooter clock"----Do people not know that cooter is a slang euphemism for a woman's genitalia? Wow. Metafilter is so embarrassing.
posted by mxjudyliza at 10:05 AM on March 21
posted by mxjudyliza at 10:05 AM on March 21
Regarding "cooter clock"----Do people not know that cooter is a slang euphemism for a woman's genitalia? Wow. Metafilter is so embarrassing.
Yes, I think that was Jessamyn's point.
posted by kbanas at 10:17 AM on March 21 [23 favorites]
Yes, I think that was Jessamyn's point.
posted by kbanas at 10:17 AM on March 21 [23 favorites]
I guess my question is, if the staff believe that anti-racism work is a high priority, what are staff wanting and willing to do differently? I had forgotten that the committee was initiated by a mod actually.
I admit that after the now-removed-from-easy-viewing and comments-deleted post about the n-p situation in MetaTalk, as well as the whole original situation and the two other incidents around that time, I do not know what to think about anti-racism activities on the site as a whole.
In any case once we get the moderation second-look process in place (delay is on me due to my organizational capacities being temporarily blown out by palliative care arrangements, in-patient arrangements and work) we'll definitely look for patterns and insights and recommendations.
Anti-racism work is everyone's work.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:35 AM on March 21 [11 favorites]
I admit that after the now-removed-from-easy-viewing and comments-deleted post about the n-p situation in MetaTalk, as well as the whole original situation and the two other incidents around that time, I do not know what to think about anti-racism activities on the site as a whole.
In any case once we get the moderation second-look process in place (delay is on me due to my organizational capacities being temporarily blown out by palliative care arrangements, in-patient arrangements and work) we'll definitely look for patterns and insights and recommendations.
Anti-racism work is everyone's work.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:35 AM on March 21 [11 favorites]
The anotherpanacea thread was a fucking disaster, and it's an embarrassment to Metafilter that his horrifically shitty, mask off, increasingly explicitly racist comments in that thread were all memory holed--not by mod action for removing shitty content that broke guidelines and disrespected our non white userbase, but because anotherpanacea dirty deleted and fucked off.
Everything about that thread is proof that the staff are maintaining the status quo.
That thread should either have been better moderated and called out for being gross immediately upon becoming gross, or left to stand as an example of what every POC has been telling this community for YEARS, that we've got problems with racism. Instead the harm was allowed to be done and the rude ass white boy was allowed to scarper off with his dignity sanitized.
posted by phunniemee at 10:53 AM on March 21 [17 favorites]
Everything about that thread is proof that the staff are maintaining the status quo.
That thread should either have been better moderated and called out for being gross immediately upon becoming gross, or left to stand as an example of what every POC has been telling this community for YEARS, that we've got problems with racism. Instead the harm was allowed to be done and the rude ass white boy was allowed to scarper off with his dignity sanitized.
posted by phunniemee at 10:53 AM on March 21 [17 favorites]
Agreed, it was that thread that really planted the seed in my head for this post. The issues there were exactly the reason the BIPOC board was created, and they were completely invisible. I’d read the minutes to see if anyone thought to say anything to them about it, or if they had anything to say about it but, you know…
posted by Vatnesine at 11:50 AM on March 21 [4 favorites]
posted by Vatnesine at 11:50 AM on March 21 [4 favorites]
Unless I've missed something, the BIPOC board is definitely not playing an activist/advocacy role (because that would be visible on the site).
Yes, sorry, I agree. My verb tenses were confusing. I meant that that pleading with the mods but not having any authority would be the only real role available to them, which is no different from any other user. Not that they had chosen to play that role (which is understandable). Having fake authority is worse than not having authority, because people blame you for stuff that you can't fix, and the people who can fix it avoid accountability by blaming you. It's a no-win situation.
posted by lapis at 12:49 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
Yes, sorry, I agree. My verb tenses were confusing. I meant that that pleading with the mods but not having any authority would be the only real role available to them, which is no different from any other user. Not that they had chosen to play that role (which is understandable). Having fake authority is worse than not having authority, because people blame you for stuff that you can't fix, and the people who can fix it avoid accountability by blaming you. It's a no-win situation.
posted by lapis at 12:49 PM on March 21 [5 favorites]
My understanding was that the BIPOC Board was intended to provide a place for users to be heard if they were feeling unheard on the site itself. That is, to serve at least part of the time in an ombuds or intermediary role for the complainant, as well as possibly an advisory role for the site.
In the Board's published minutes, however, there is extensive detail on Loup's repeated promises to complete a task, but then failing to do so. I believe this is at least part of what led to them having an accountability partner. From the vantage point of reader, rather than participant, this seemed to be repeatedly blocking Board progress.
In the last published set of minutes, it's mentioned that Aielen served as informal ombudsperson in two instances.
If I got any of this wrong, members should feel free to correct me. I always thought an intermediary/advisory Board always seemed like a good idea, and I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on what went wrong, and how it could be made right.
posted by Violet Blue at 1:24 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
In the Board's published minutes, however, there is extensive detail on Loup's repeated promises to complete a task, but then failing to do so. I believe this is at least part of what led to them having an accountability partner. From the vantage point of reader, rather than participant, this seemed to be repeatedly blocking Board progress.
In the last published set of minutes, it's mentioned that Aielen served as informal ombudsperson in two instances.
If I got any of this wrong, members should feel free to correct me. I always thought an intermediary/advisory Board always seemed like a good idea, and I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on what went wrong, and how it could be made right.
posted by Violet Blue at 1:24 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
I guess my question is, if the staff believe that anti-racism work is a high priority, what are staff wanting and willing to do differently?
Loup's off this weekend, and Travelingthyme is off today, so I'll just chime in and say we're open to offering help and support. My person suggestions are above, so willing to help with setting up a form, tracking data, participating in discussions and reviews. Always available for questions and advice.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:02 AM on March 22
Loup's off this weekend, and Travelingthyme is off today, so I'll just chime in and say we're open to offering help and support. My person suggestions are above, so willing to help with setting up a form, tracking data, participating in discussions and reviews. Always available for questions and advice.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:02 AM on March 22
The site/foundation are not functional enough to really have a productive BIPOC board, in my opinion. Who would they report their findings to? Who would implement recommended changes? The site has had a complete leadership vacuum for years and the current interim board intends to perpetuate that for months (years?) before the election of a real board or hiring someone to lead the foundation. It is totally unlikely that even a perfectly functioning BIPOC board could actually do anything given the overall situation.
posted by snofoam at 10:40 AM on March 22 [12 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 10:40 AM on March 22 [12 favorites]
I have just two very general suggestions:
1. Staff members should not be voting members of any boards or committees, etc. Staff members as voting members detracts from being community run.
2. Any minutes should be a simple affair, indicating general discussion topics but specifics of any motions and votes. A staff member should take the minutes. they should go out before the next meeting, and amendments are made at the meeting, and they are voted on and finalized then.
posted by NotLost at 11:23 AM on March 22 [10 favorites]
1. Staff members should not be voting members of any boards or committees, etc. Staff members as voting members detracts from being community run.
2. Any minutes should be a simple affair, indicating general discussion topics but specifics of any motions and votes. A staff member should take the minutes. they should go out before the next meeting, and amendments are made at the meeting, and they are voted on and finalized then.
posted by NotLost at 11:23 AM on March 22 [10 favorites]
My person suggestions are above, so willing to help with setting up a form, tracking data, participating in discussions and reviews.
Did you catch the part where I and lapis said the Racism Tracker was not a good idea? Or are you more attached to your idea because you proposed it and therefore will not consider any other feedback?
Who is in charge? Where is the board? This requires systemic change - ok so where are the people running the system who will be the people responsible for implementing this change?
posted by creatrixtiara at 2:56 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
Did you catch the part where I and lapis said the Racism Tracker was not a good idea? Or are you more attached to your idea because you proposed it and therefore will not consider any other feedback?
Who is in charge? Where is the board? This requires systemic change - ok so where are the people running the system who will be the people responsible for implementing this change?
posted by creatrixtiara at 2:56 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
No one’s doing anything, creatrixtiara.
posted by Vatnesine at 3:56 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by Vatnesine at 3:56 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
Or are you more attached to your idea because you proposed it and therefore will not consider any other feedback?
It’s this. It’s always been this.
posted by donnagirl at 5:10 PM on March 22 [8 favorites]
It’s this. It’s always been this.
posted by donnagirl at 5:10 PM on March 22 [8 favorites]
MetaFilter's history of handling minority issues is abysmal. Be they BIPOC, trans or Jewish (I recently attempted to post on the Grey about antisemitism, and the entire post was "disappeared" with nary a word), the mods repeatedly fail to take action or provide support despite a monthly four-mod cost of about $20k.
From that vantage point, the embarrassing failure of the BIPOC Board is to be expected.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:39 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
From that vantage point, the embarrassing failure of the BIPOC Board is to be expected.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:39 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
No one’s doing anything, creatrixtiara.
See this is where I am confused.
The point of a board - BIPOC or otherwise - is to govern over and advise the leadership of a particular organization.
Who is the leadership currently?
I know there's an interim board happening but who are they managing? Has anyone been appointed Director - not Director of the Board, but Director of Metafilter the organization? Who are the mods reporting to? Who is the BIPOC board advising?
This is not meant to be a slight on the mods but I'm trying to figure out the balance of power here. It feels a bit like the mods are the directors here, with Brandon as Head Mod? And also somehow defacto Metafilter Director because he's been the most proactive, whether or not we agree with his actions?
Maybe the mods have more agency than I realized to set up their own projects and plans, which is fine, but who are they reporting to? What's the hierarchy like?
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:51 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
See this is where I am confused.
The point of a board - BIPOC or otherwise - is to govern over and advise the leadership of a particular organization.
Who is the leadership currently?
I know there's an interim board happening but who are they managing? Has anyone been appointed Director - not Director of the Board, but Director of Metafilter the organization? Who are the mods reporting to? Who is the BIPOC board advising?
This is not meant to be a slight on the mods but I'm trying to figure out the balance of power here. It feels a bit like the mods are the directors here, with Brandon as Head Mod? And also somehow defacto Metafilter Director because he's been the most proactive, whether or not we agree with his actions?
Maybe the mods have more agency than I realized to set up their own projects and plans, which is fine, but who are they reporting to? What's the hierarchy like?
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:51 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
I thought posts on MeTa weren't supposed to be getting disappeared out of the queue without posting anymore? But it sounds like yet another one has been?
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:12 PM on March 22
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:12 PM on March 22
This is not meant to be a slight on the mods but I'm trying to figure out the balance of power here. It feels a bit like the mods are the directors here, with Brandon as Head Mod? And also somehow defacto Metafilter Director because he's been the most proactive, whether or not we agree with his actions?
I have been asking similar questions for quite a while and have come to the same conclusion. There's an interim board but the moderators don't seem to be reporting to them. The interim board says they don't want to do anything other than maintain the status quo because they weren't elected, so we need to wait for an elected board, but they are the only ones, legally, who can establish conditions for board elections (because those conditions need to be in the bylaws) and they seem to be just not doing anything with that, or if they are, it's not being communicated to anyone. Brandon says he speaks for the moderators. So yeah, as far as I can tell, Brandon is de facto in charge.
Which is not, as far as I can tell, what anyone (probably also including Brandon) wants, but no one who has the actual ability to change that seems to be doing anything to change it.
posted by lapis at 7:40 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
I have been asking similar questions for quite a while and have come to the same conclusion. There's an interim board but the moderators don't seem to be reporting to them. The interim board says they don't want to do anything other than maintain the status quo because they weren't elected, so we need to wait for an elected board, but they are the only ones, legally, who can establish conditions for board elections (because those conditions need to be in the bylaws) and they seem to be just not doing anything with that, or if they are, it's not being communicated to anyone. Brandon says he speaks for the moderators. So yeah, as far as I can tell, Brandon is de facto in charge.
Which is not, as far as I can tell, what anyone (probably also including Brandon) wants, but no one who has the actual ability to change that seems to be doing anything to change it.
posted by lapis at 7:40 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
So if I'm understanding lapis right:
[Chairperson of the Board]
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[Board(s)]
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[Director of Metafilter, currently non existent, previously would have been occupied by jessamyn/cortex/mathowie if MF was an NFP back then]
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[Head Mod Brandon Blatcher, semi-official designation?]
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[Other Mods, other staff like kirkaracha]
But due to the power vacuum that is the lack of the Metafilter Director, Brandon is now in charge?
posted by creatrixtiara at 8:36 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
[Chairperson of the Board]
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[Board(s)]
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[Director of Metafilter, currently non existent, previously would have been occupied by jessamyn/cortex/mathowie if MF was an NFP back then]
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[Head Mod Brandon Blatcher, semi-official designation?]
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[Other Mods, other staff like kirkaracha]
But due to the power vacuum that is the lack of the Metafilter Director, Brandon is now in charge?
posted by creatrixtiara at 8:36 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
Is Brandon really the head mod? My understanding was the he is the face of the mods but that loup is the admin mod. But possibly I missed a change.
posted by NotLost at 8:50 PM on March 22
posted by NotLost at 8:50 PM on March 22
NotLost: according to lapis: "Brandon says he speaks for the moderators."
which is why I've put him in Head Mod level
But I might be wrong! Which is why I want to Khloe what the governance structure actually is.
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:13 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
which is why I've put him in Head Mod level
But I might be wrong! Which is why I want to Khloe what the governance structure actually is.
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:13 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
*know not Khloe, autocorrect plus tired brain is a terrible combo
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:20 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 9:20 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
This page says loup does management and Brandon does communications.
posted by NotLost at 9:21 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
posted by NotLost at 9:21 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
Is loup making decisions?
By "de facto in charge," I mean the person who can say "yes" or "no." This came up in the thread about ending the MeTa queue. If the entire userbase (hypothetically) wants something, and Brandon says "no," then what happens? What if Brandon wants something that no one else wants? If Brandon is the last word, then he's in charge.
If loup is making decisions, that's not being communicated in any formal way. Brandon has certainly been presenting himself as the decider. Or when he (or the other mods) say it's not their decision, there's not any follow up that would indicate that someone else could actually enact any decision. Like with the queue -- staff on the site are the only people who can actually change that. Which means, absent any mechanisms by which anyone other than the board can direct the staff to do things, and given that the board refuses to direct anyone, the staff is in charge.
And creatrixtiara, I think it's more just "Board --> Mods/Staff." There aren't any directors or chairs. The idea of user-run was that the Board would be elected, but for now, it's just three (I think?) volunteers.
posted by lapis at 9:43 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
By "de facto in charge," I mean the person who can say "yes" or "no." This came up in the thread about ending the MeTa queue. If the entire userbase (hypothetically) wants something, and Brandon says "no," then what happens? What if Brandon wants something that no one else wants? If Brandon is the last word, then he's in charge.
If loup is making decisions, that's not being communicated in any formal way. Brandon has certainly been presenting himself as the decider. Or when he (or the other mods) say it's not their decision, there's not any follow up that would indicate that someone else could actually enact any decision. Like with the queue -- staff on the site are the only people who can actually change that. Which means, absent any mechanisms by which anyone other than the board can direct the staff to do things, and given that the board refuses to direct anyone, the staff is in charge.
And creatrixtiara, I think it's more just "Board --> Mods/Staff." There aren't any directors or chairs. The idea of user-run was that the Board would be elected, but for now, it's just three (I think?) volunteers.
posted by lapis at 9:43 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
Just because Brandon is the mouthpiece, that doesn't mean he's the decider.
posted by NotLost at 10:04 PM on March 22
posted by NotLost at 10:04 PM on March 22
But it doesn't bode well that we even need to be trying to figure this out.
posted by NotLost at 10:04 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
posted by NotLost at 10:04 PM on March 22 [4 favorites]
Mod note: This page says loup does management and Brandon does communications.
Yep and loup reports to the board, which is currently the Interim Board. All the mods and developers have access to their Slack channel and can bring things up to them.
Creatrixtiara, if there's something in particular you think the staff should do or being in terms of the BiPOC, I'd recommend asking for that thing to be done publicly, like here in this thread. If there's specific tasks you think the Board needs done and you think a mod can assist with, just shoot us an email or make a MeTa with the ask
General purpose goals or discussion might better formal meetings, but that's y'all's call. The bottom line is that staff can and is willing to help, it's just a matter of defining that sort of help the BIPOC board wants
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:43 PM on March 22
Yep and loup reports to the board, which is currently the Interim Board. All the mods and developers have access to their Slack channel and can bring things up to them.
Creatrixtiara, if there's something in particular you think the staff should do or being in terms of the BiPOC, I'd recommend asking for that thing to be done publicly, like here in this thread. If there's specific tasks you think the Board needs done and you think a mod can assist with, just shoot us an email or make a MeTa with the ask
General purpose goals or discussion might better formal meetings, but that's y'all's call. The bottom line is that staff can and is willing to help, it's just a matter of defining that sort of help the BIPOC board wants
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:43 PM on March 22
Maybe The Closer is in charge. At work they're full-time LARPing a covert assassin that is also a ghost from a 90s rom-com set in an office in, like, Topeka or Gainesville, but the character they're LARPing as hasn't ever actually had an office job before going undercover for this one, and that's why they run this place like Steve Martin putting novocaine on his hands while trying to pass as a surgeon in the OR in The Jerk.
On preview: Oops, guess mot.
posted by knucklebones at 10:53 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
On preview: Oops, guess mot.
posted by knucklebones at 10:53 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
To my earlier point about the mods not being responsive to issues related to minorities: I posted a thread on antisemitism tonight, with something like 10 links and multiple paragraphs about a surge in US antisemitism thanks to the Trump administration, and with the help of podcasters like Joe Rogan and Theo Von.
The first comment was all about how the conservative Anti-Defamation League (ADL) position on the Palestinian protesters was not helping antisemitism. Nearly every subsequent comment of 24 and counting was about the evils of the ADL, or how wrong I was to criticize the first post. I was not supporting the ADL in the thread. The post was not about the ADL. In fact, it never mentioned it. Yet I got taken to task by one commenter for trying to point out that the comment was verging on anti-semitic and by another for not reading up on the ADL. As in every other thread I've been in — or posted — that's even peripherally about the Palestinians, the pro-Palestinian contingent saw fit to turn the thread into a referendum on matters Palestinian from a point of view that completely and utterly obliterates any other perspective that doesn't whole heartedly agree with them and renders all other Jewish issues unimportant. If that isn't fucking antisemitic I don't know what is. The mods, who ignored a plea for intervention, as usual, should be ashamed.
posted by Violet Blue at 10:56 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
The first comment was all about how the conservative Anti-Defamation League (ADL) position on the Palestinian protesters was not helping antisemitism. Nearly every subsequent comment of 24 and counting was about the evils of the ADL, or how wrong I was to criticize the first post. I was not supporting the ADL in the thread. The post was not about the ADL. In fact, it never mentioned it. Yet I got taken to task by one commenter for trying to point out that the comment was verging on anti-semitic and by another for not reading up on the ADL. As in every other thread I've been in — or posted — that's even peripherally about the Palestinians, the pro-Palestinian contingent saw fit to turn the thread into a referendum on matters Palestinian from a point of view that completely and utterly obliterates any other perspective that doesn't whole heartedly agree with them and renders all other Jewish issues unimportant. If that isn't fucking antisemitic I don't know what is. The mods, who ignored a plea for intervention, as usual, should be ashamed.
posted by Violet Blue at 10:56 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
Can members of the BIPOC Board get a special-just-for-them button for downvoting comments?
posted by knucklebones at 11:02 PM on March 22
posted by knucklebones at 11:02 PM on March 22
Creatrixtiara, if there's something in particular you think the staff should do or being in terms of the BiPOC, I'd recommend asking for that thing to be done publicly, like here in this thread. If there's specific tasks you think the Board needs done and you think a mod can assist with, just shoot us an email or make a MeTa with the ask
I'm not on the BIPOC board. I think I got offered a spot at one point, during my hiatus? But I'm not on the board and never have been, so I don't think it's my place to speak for them.
I believe that the BIPOC board was set up to address some significant systemic issues with how PoC and non-Americans were treated here in Metafilter, as a result of some intense discussions circa 2019, of which I was an active participant as divabat. For anything they come up with to take effect, they would need to talk to The Person In Charge of Metafilter, who can then actually set some plans in motion.
My concern, which seems to be what this thread is about, is that the BIPOC board seems to be doing nothing. Not necessarily because the board members aren't doing anything of note, but because there is no mechanism for any of their suggestions or concerns to be actioned by Metafilter staff. But also, it's not clear what sort of things they can do. Be an ombudsman figure? Mediate between staff and PoC members if any of them have direct issues with staff? Look at overall trends around PoC in online spaces (esp given the anti-DEI push in politics right now) and come up with ways that Metafilter should be engaging with those current issues?
Or are they just some kind of rubber stamp theatre for Metafilter to say "ok yup see we care about PoC!!" but do nothing else? Like how some people hire sensitivity readers just so they can say they hired sensitivity readers but take in none of their advice (I have been in that situation a few times)?
I keep saying systemic change because the changes Metafilter needs to put in to be more effective with marginalised member bases are deeper than just actions the mods can spin up. It's looking at moderation policy. It's looking at hiring practices. It's looking at how rules around queues or self-linking or whatever affect marginalised groups (sometimes the effects are negligible, but it's worth considering). It would have to be part of the bylaws and constitution created by the Metafilter Foundation.
Are the mods the main staff members tasked with those kinds of systemic decisions then? Should they be?
My last job was in a situation where technically I was meant to report to the Directors and they report to the Board, but there was only 3 of us as staff so all my meetings were with the board and directors anyway and I had a lot of direct interaction with the board Chair. And perhaps Mefi is small enough that this structure makes sense. But it still feels like there is a layer of accountability missing.
So yeah, I'm kinda hesitant to suggest anything the BIPOC board should be doing or what the staff should be doing for the Board because I'm not sure how empowered the BIPOC Board is to be doing much of anything.
posted by creatrixtiara at 11:14 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
I'm not on the BIPOC board. I think I got offered a spot at one point, during my hiatus? But I'm not on the board and never have been, so I don't think it's my place to speak for them.
I believe that the BIPOC board was set up to address some significant systemic issues with how PoC and non-Americans were treated here in Metafilter, as a result of some intense discussions circa 2019, of which I was an active participant as divabat. For anything they come up with to take effect, they would need to talk to The Person In Charge of Metafilter, who can then actually set some plans in motion.
My concern, which seems to be what this thread is about, is that the BIPOC board seems to be doing nothing. Not necessarily because the board members aren't doing anything of note, but because there is no mechanism for any of their suggestions or concerns to be actioned by Metafilter staff. But also, it's not clear what sort of things they can do. Be an ombudsman figure? Mediate between staff and PoC members if any of them have direct issues with staff? Look at overall trends around PoC in online spaces (esp given the anti-DEI push in politics right now) and come up with ways that Metafilter should be engaging with those current issues?
Or are they just some kind of rubber stamp theatre for Metafilter to say "ok yup see we care about PoC!!" but do nothing else? Like how some people hire sensitivity readers just so they can say they hired sensitivity readers but take in none of their advice (I have been in that situation a few times)?
I keep saying systemic change because the changes Metafilter needs to put in to be more effective with marginalised member bases are deeper than just actions the mods can spin up. It's looking at moderation policy. It's looking at hiring practices. It's looking at how rules around queues or self-linking or whatever affect marginalised groups (sometimes the effects are negligible, but it's worth considering). It would have to be part of the bylaws and constitution created by the Metafilter Foundation.
Are the mods the main staff members tasked with those kinds of systemic decisions then? Should they be?
My last job was in a situation where technically I was meant to report to the Directors and they report to the Board, but there was only 3 of us as staff so all my meetings were with the board and directors anyway and I had a lot of direct interaction with the board Chair. And perhaps Mefi is small enough that this structure makes sense. But it still feels like there is a layer of accountability missing.
So yeah, I'm kinda hesitant to suggest anything the BIPOC board should be doing or what the staff should be doing for the Board because I'm not sure how empowered the BIPOC Board is to be doing much of anything.
posted by creatrixtiara at 11:14 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
This is the comment is at the start of the thread on antisemitism mentioned above.
When I balked at the implicit argument in the comment, I was rebuked by a commenter. He got 13 likes.
Someone else wrote:
That's how it always goes with the pro Palestinian contingent. They pile on the likes. It's one of the ways they win their arguments. MFM has speculated whether folks like these are big donors. How else to explain the way they are allowed to enter, derail and functionally troll threads on antisemitism by complaining about an organization solely because they don't like how it is impacting pro Palestinian protesters.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:52 PM on March 22
"It's not helping that ADL is fully abdicating its role, to prioritize targeting anti genocide protestors and crush Columbia rather than stand up to the Musk and CPAC."ADL's political values are *very* relevant to the pro-Palestinian contingent, and not particular relevant to the average Jewish person who will likely have no influence over their actions anyway, though some may actively dislike them. The comment got 27 favorites and counting, but all but silenced everything on antisemitism that came before it.
When I balked at the implicit argument in the comment, I was rebuked by a commenter. He got 13 likes.
Someone else wrote:
I am Jewish and will say with absolute certainty that the ADL has lost all credibility in my eyes. Fuck that phony ass organization and fuck Jonathan Greenblatt, and Abe Foxman before him. They don't just fail to meet their mandate, they expressly suck and contribute to the problem by trying to spread dangerous right wing nonsense about how anti-Israel speech is antisemitism. Not only does it not help, it deliberately harms. They can eat shit.They got 27 likes too. Hmm, I wonder from whom.
That's how it always goes with the pro Palestinian contingent. They pile on the likes. It's one of the ways they win their arguments. MFM has speculated whether folks like these are big donors. How else to explain the way they are allowed to enter, derail and functionally troll threads on antisemitism by complaining about an organization solely because they don't like how it is impacting pro Palestinian protesters.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:52 PM on March 22
And now, let's see.
posted by cendawanita at 11:59 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:59 PM on March 22 [3 favorites]
Violet Blue, I'm sorry that your original Metatalk post got removed, but this feels like a derail.
posted by creatrixtiara at 12:00 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 12:00 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
Yes, that's what happened to my thread too!
posted by Violet Blue at 12:02 AM on March 23
posted by Violet Blue at 12:02 AM on March 23
I would just like to state for the record that i have never given any money to MetaFilter beyond my $5 signup fee, and in fact i have no fucking money whatsoever, being both underemployed and the sole earner for a household of two people and two cats.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:12 AM on March 23
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:12 AM on March 23
Sometimes an old post comes in quite handy.
posted by knucklebones at 12:22 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
posted by knucklebones at 12:22 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
And sometimes it's just an asshole move.
posted by Violet Blue at 1:49 AM on March 23
posted by Violet Blue at 1:49 AM on March 23
I'm sorry, what is the asshole move here? To say that a comment about how pro-Palestine members are "trolling" threads about anti-Semitism, with some bizarre claims about how they're able to get away with it because they're "big donors" (to who? Metafilter? The site that famously would not allow posts about I/P until the last couple of years because "we don't do it well"?), is derailing a thread about whether the BIPOC Board has actually been effective in its goals?
Like again, I'm sorry that your initial attempt to make a Metatalk thread about it didn't go so well and I'm not sure why that happened. But I don't think this thread is the avenue for it.
It feels especially egregious because there has been a pattern (everywhere, not pointing this at Metafilter in the specific) where pro-Palestine PoC in general have been accused of being "antisemitic pro-terrorists" to a degree that White pro-Palestine folk do not get, especially if they present as vaguely Muslim or Middle Eastern, because suddenly we're all for radical Islam or some shit. I'm not saying the PoC userbase here or even the BIPOC Board are all pro-Palestine, nor are they all necessarily good around antisemitism (I'm originally from a country that has anti-Semitism baked into its core so I get that there's plenty to judge). But posting this in this specific thread, especially with insinuations that those of us who are pro Palestine somehow paid off the moderators to be able to "derail and troll threads" and farm likes in the process, feels like a ton of dogwhistles going off at once.
posted by creatrixtiara at 2:26 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
Like again, I'm sorry that your initial attempt to make a Metatalk thread about it didn't go so well and I'm not sure why that happened. But I don't think this thread is the avenue for it.
It feels especially egregious because there has been a pattern (everywhere, not pointing this at Metafilter in the specific) where pro-Palestine PoC in general have been accused of being "antisemitic pro-terrorists" to a degree that White pro-Palestine folk do not get, especially if they present as vaguely Muslim or Middle Eastern, because suddenly we're all for radical Islam or some shit. I'm not saying the PoC userbase here or even the BIPOC Board are all pro-Palestine, nor are they all necessarily good around antisemitism (I'm originally from a country that has anti-Semitism baked into its core so I get that there's plenty to judge). But posting this in this specific thread, especially with insinuations that those of us who are pro Palestine somehow paid off the moderators to be able to "derail and troll threads" and farm likes in the process, feels like a ton of dogwhistles going off at once.
posted by creatrixtiara at 2:26 AM on March 23 [2 favorites]
For the avoidance of doubt, "pro-Palestinian" and "Jewish" are not disjoint sets.
Also I'm pretty sure that at least three of the commenters who are criticizing the ADL in that thread are Jewish.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:32 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
Also I'm pretty sure that at least three of the commenters who are criticizing the ADL in that thread are Jewish.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:32 AM on March 23 [3 favorites]
There is no thread for it. That's the point.
posted by Violet Blue at 2:48 AM on March 23
posted by Violet Blue at 2:48 AM on March 23
This poster has a track record of speaking for (and over) marginalized groups they don't belong to, then positioning themself and their allyship as the Real Victim Here as soon as actual members of those groups point out how that behavior isn't cool.
Not unrelatedly, there are many antizionist, pro-Palestinian Jews (in the US media their voices are platformed speaking out against genocide nearly as frequently as Palestinians are), but perhaps the Chief Rabbinate of Metafilter has determined we are not really Jewish.
posted by knucklebones at 2:49 AM on March 23
Not unrelatedly, there are many antizionist, pro-Palestinian Jews (in the US media their voices are platformed speaking out against genocide nearly as frequently as Palestinians are), but perhaps the Chief Rabbinate of Metafilter has determined we are not really Jewish.
posted by knucklebones at 2:49 AM on March 23
There is no thread for it. That's the point.
Ok, so why post about it in this thread in particular? Again, that your original post got removed sucks, but I don't see why this thread should now be the avenue for that discussion, especially with this insinuation about "big donors". It feels targeted.
posted by creatrixtiara at 2:55 AM on March 23
Ok, so why post about it in this thread in particular? Again, that your original post got removed sucks, but I don't see why this thread should now be the avenue for that discussion, especially with this insinuation about "big donors". It feels targeted.
posted by creatrixtiara at 2:55 AM on March 23
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posted by tivalasvegas at 6:38 AM on March 20 [2 favorites]