having a "point" is a step towards chaos

April 25, 2003 4:20 PM

Actually, posts with "points" are often the ones in most danger of inciting flamefests and being less than appropriate.
posted by Su to Etiquette/Policy at 4:20 PM (22 comments total)

It's a small step from point to agenda. Nobody should be particularly trying to prove anything here. It's a place for sharing things you've found. The straw man accusation ended up being a straw man itself. Funny.
posted by Su at 4:20 PM on April 25, 2003

good point Su. it was a humorous, lighthearted, agendaless link on a difficult subject IMO, and it's kinda sad to see some people take it to heart. reminds me of some of the responses to this post.
posted by poopy at 4:42 PM on April 25, 2003

It's a small step from point to agenda. Nobody should be particularly trying to prove anything here. It's a place for sharing things you've found.

Very true, but those days are long gone. Metafilter has become exactly that.
posted by Dennis Murphy at 8:20 PM on April 25, 2003

You're quite right, Su. A post should offer a link and if it does suggest a discussion, keep it open. The poster should comment alongside fellow members in the thread - preferably, according to rcade's informal law, after comment no.7.

I mention this because in my literary posts I've been guilty of wearing my heart on my sleeve, which skews discussions. It was only in my last one that Shane politely but aptly pointed it out to me.

It doesn't matter what the post is about - i.e., the fact that it isn't politics shouldn't give one carte blanche. One should always, democratically, confine one's own opinion and editorializing to the thread itself.

The added advantage: one can go wild then, instead of trying to sound faux-objectif in the post.

[Thanks Shane!]
posted by MiguelCardoso at 8:37 PM on April 25, 2003

One should always ...

No matter how that sentence finishes, it will be a joke.
posted by mischief at 9:30 PM on April 25, 2003

I'm aware of the Prince Charles overtones. It's just that "you or we should always" sounds didactic and patronising, Mischief. It's not my fault I can't speak proper English! ;)
posted by MiguelCardoso at 9:42 PM on April 25, 2003

So many users see it as completely natural that a post should be like the announcement of the season's debate team topic: then all that's left is to do your research and line up pro or anti. Agonistic culture - people don't see a point to an activity without a winner or loser.
posted by crunchburger at 11:37 PM on April 25, 2003

My dear Miguel,

'Tis not your choice of pronoun, nay,
but the piety of your '... should always ...'.

- luv m . ;-P
posted by mischief at 12:38 AM on April 26, 2003

Oh, one sees! Dammit, you're absolutely right and one is embarrassed. What I really meant, of course, was "No one should ever..." Shit, same problem, right? Oh well, thanks anyway, mischief! :)
posted by MiguelCardoso at 1:38 AM on April 26, 2003

Agonistic culture - people don't see a point to an activity without a winner or loser.

I think I've mentioned this before, somewhere, but that' is something that's come up and surprised the crap out of me a couple of times recently - the seemingly ingrained and unquestioned idea amongst (some?/many?/most?) here (and presumably elsewhere around the traps) that to talk about one's opinions or beliefs is exactly equivalent to trying to convince the reader to change theirs to match. Discourse as conflict rather than collaboration, or simple performance for the joy of it.

I honestly never realized that people thought this way, and I wonder where it comes from.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:55 AM on April 26, 2003

I honestly never realized that people thought this way, and I wonder where it comes from.

you're wrong. no, you're wrong!
posted by eddydamascene at 2:48 AM on April 26, 2003

MC: De nada, and please allow me to compliment your appropriate usage of English curses. ;-P
posted by mischief at 2:49 AM on April 26, 2003

whoops... ...[/tinalouise]
posted by eddydamascene at 2:50 AM on April 26, 2003

Your comment is interesting, stavros - because I've often been one to comment that "arguing is pointless as you won't change anyone's opinion". I guess you're right - conflict/debate can be it's own reward. However, too many posts go beyond simply encouraging argument, and head directly for petty point-scoring.
posted by Jimbob at 3:03 AM on April 26, 2003

[Thanks Shane!]
Holy Flock! Hell has freezed over! Just kidding. I wasn't trying to be snarky, Miguel--it just got pounded into me at some point that "I think" should always be avoided. Mefi is informal, and I do it too, as in "This is my favorite," "I like this," etc. But the average Miguel post is much more formal than the norm, so the interjection of first-person opinion seems incongruous.

Some Good Posting Advice:

And I'm not kidding on this one. I learned this the hard way, by falling flat on my face when I posted a link to the site of someone I respect who has since become a good friend.

Su is absolutely right. Even if (and especially if) your post has a point:

Don't declare the point. Just word the post in a neutral manner.

E.G. If you're posting a link to something that naturally makes a case for/against abortion, just post the link with as little description as is necessary. The link itself will make your point; you don't have to.

Same thing if you're posting something you think is great (my mistake). Don't say "this is great, this guy is sooo talented." Just post the link with some neutral description.

Mefi is stroppy and rebellious and argumentative, and as soon as you say "This is great" or "This makes [such and such] point," people will jump in to prove you wrong. Sure as shite, every time. A controversial post will always garner some discussion/argument, but wording the post with opinion/bias will push it to a flamefest that much more quickly (immediately?).

I'm not trying to be sagely or egotistical, but this is something I've observed (and learned the best way possible, by walking right into the brick wall).
posted by Shane at 8:35 AM on April 26, 2003

I think S & W say it better.
posted by Shane at 8:43 AM on April 26, 2003

Pfft! Of course, I used "I" all over my first comment above. But it's a comment, not a post. Still, it would have been more convincing if I only cited examples...
posted by Shane at 8:48 AM on April 26, 2003

people will jump in to prove you wrong

Nuh-uhhhhhhh! ;-P
posted by mischief at 3:14 PM on April 26, 2003

;-p == ~wink~ == o<
posted by eyeballkid at 5:18 PM on April 26, 2003

MetaFilter: Here's a whip. Here's a dead horse. Enjoy.
posted by ZachsMind at 8:04 PM on April 26, 2003

A whip? A dead horse? WooHoo! Looks like another fabulous weekend! Who's bringing the beer?
posted by bradth27 at 3:07 AM on April 27, 2003

MetaFilter: Here's a whip. Here's a dead horse. Enjoy.

the best tagline, no ifs, ands, or buts.
posted by deborah at 8:18 PM on April 27, 2003