agenda-filter August 27, 2003 4:58 PM   Subscribe

This is so lame. I've gotten used to flames on MeFi; its part of what passes for discourse anymore. But this entire post was a predominace of flaming meta-poo. I understand the calls of Agenda-filter, but if people are going to post stuff like "It seems I must speak in language you understand . Go fuck yourself you ill-bred shit." then I think its time we up the ante. If you're going to Meta-bitch, then take it MetaTalk. More importantly, if you're going to Metaflame, do it with half an ounce of couth and style. That appears to be where MetaFilter is headed, so please keep up. (slightly more inside)
posted by Wulfgar! to Etiquette/Policy at 4:58 PM (57 comments total)

Deepest apologies to a Mr. Wonder Chicken who predicted the direction of MetaFilter earlier, and I was too stupid to listen. Like a dude named Anakin said while dying, you were right, and I was wrong. We've not only become like Fark, we've become wimpy in our ability to insult and forward our own agendas, precisely because positing an agenda of another is considered "BAD".
posted by Wulfgar! at 5:02 PM on August 27, 2003


we've become wimpy in our ability to insult and forward our own agendas


I don't get it... you wish we were stronger in our ability to insult and forward our own agendas?
posted by jonson at 5:08 PM on August 27, 2003


I'm going to weed out that thread and remove every post that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 5:08 PM on August 27, 2003


Never mind, it would appear that the post is back on track.
posted by Wulfgar! at 5:09 PM on August 27, 2003


Ok. So I've been a member since last fall, though lurking has been my weapon of choice. Well, I suddenly have a *lot* of free time on my hands, and think, 'hmm, maybe I'll start postin' to the Mefi'. The problem? Every other fucking post, someone's crying 'troll' or 'agenda' or 'beat that horse, bubba!'. At this point, I'm actually afraid to get involved in the conversations, and my few timid attemps have been weak. What the hell's my point, you ask?

It makes me want to cry, 's all.
posted by item at 5:09 PM on August 27, 2003


Sorry to hear it, item. You know how it goes, the loudest ones set the tone. But I would recommend non-political posts if you really want to dive into the fray. Some of us are nice and will even thank you for posting, if you're lucky.
posted by beth at 5:15 PM on August 27, 2003


post your stuff. revel in the noise of my horse beating agenda troll colleagues. here is a secret of the universe: if you do stuff, people will say bad things about you. if you don't do things, people will say bad stuff about you. and in soviet russia, it's just the opposite.
posted by quonsar at 5:19 PM on August 27, 2003


quonsar, that's the second time today you've written something that makes a lot of sense to me. One of us must be undergoing some sort of metamorphous.
posted by timeistight at 5:25 PM on August 27, 2003


One of us must be undergoing some sort of metamorphous.

If you don't smell like elephant piss, it's probably him.
posted by yerfatma at 5:33 PM on August 27, 2003


ok...'k...'k... i gotta good FPP... today, a CNN-USA Today-Gallup poll found that only 1 in 5 americans supported the court's decision to remove the ten commandments. as a liberal i could easily provide many links supporting the reasoning behind the court's decision, and i'm quite sure that the community here would back me up. u would, right? i mean, come on! we're all in this together!!!!
posted by poopy at 6:31 PM on August 27, 2003


(meta-)poopy: The separation of "church and court" should be a no-brainer. ;-P
posted by mischief at 7:02 PM on August 27, 2003


Gotta admit that this kind of unofficial "go for the jugular" policy in the long run weeds out a lot of bad posts. (I can think of many times that I was going to post something, but didn't out of fear of getting my ass handed to me.)

In the long run I think the ratio of good discourse to bad discourse is tipped consistently to the good. Mefi is GOOD. I like it. I come here a lot. People should stop trying to predict its demise into Farkhood, we aren't even close. I have lurked here since the "good old days," and I still think that Metafilter is as consistently good as it ever was.
posted by Quartermass at 8:26 PM on August 27, 2003


Maybe part of the problem around here, Quartermass, is that some people have too-thick skins. They're happy to post bollocks. And insults stick to them like water to a duck's back. They just don't get it when people complain about their posting habits. Often it has nothing what-so-ever to do with biased political missions, and everything to do with completely misunderstanding what people want to see on the front page. Just remember folks; you can't polish a turd.

But I guess you're right, it isn't all that bad on the whole. Maybe the crap posts help spur on decent posters, determined to make an effort and shine through the muck.
posted by Jimbob at 8:46 PM on August 27, 2003


Quartermass, I still think that MetaFilter can be good as well. However, far too often we see those comments that just speak to cowardice. "This person has an agenda", "this person believes something I don't". And if you call someone on that kind of meta-kevetch, they try to flame you, usually in the weakest form of wrapping themselves in common-knowledge community. Please.

If you're gonna flame, do it straight up. I'm beginning to believe that the "jugular" attack is the only effective method of disagreement round these parts, because agenda-bashing is the safe little panacea of the online community. In the thread in question (before mathowie's efficient pruning) the attacks weren't about the post, nor even the poster, save that it was bad because he had (OH MY) an agenda (cue dramatic music). My god, how lame. I pointed out that fact, and then the truly weak poo flinging began. Laughable!

I just think that if any want to claim that poster X is hurting the community for meta[Y] reason, then take it to MetaTalk and spare us the weak attempts at ego boost. If you really have a problem with what that poster (or commenter) has done then be creative and forceful about it. For criminy's sake, I don't like half of quonsar's comment, but I damn well respect him for offering them in the face of possible banishment or ridicule. Having temper tantrums after someone calls you on a weak misdirection ploy is just ... icky. And it happens far too often, of late.

On preview, Jimbob, why would any of us care about what "people" (desperate plee to authority that it is) want to see on the front page? If you don't want to see it, don't look. If its innapropriate, say so ... in the right venue. If the site suffers for it, then mathowie will take care of that little issue. Complain all you want, but don't expect to get taken seriously, by the poster or those who disagree with you. That's what "community" is all about.
posted by Wulfgar! at 9:13 PM on August 27, 2003


only 1 in 5 americans supported the court's decision to remove the ten commandments.

What do you think?
posted by homunculus at 9:29 PM on August 27, 2003


Yeah Wulf, I agree with you. One of the things that makes MeFi so good is that we have people like you in our community who care enough to call people on their shit, that we have MetaTalk which is here so that we can make this community as good as we can.

I don't read all the posts, and I comment on even fewer (and I post my own even fewer than that), but I keep coming back. Why? Well, like most others in who have similar patterns (see Item above), I would say that MeFi is often entertaining simply for its strides in self monitoring and self correcting (coupled with Matt, the omniscient demigod to whose benevolent rule we all live under). Why else would a mostly silent MeFi'er come to MeTa? Because MeFi, the community, has its own laws and norms, and sometimes, it is fun to see the law and norms being broken because that is when they become so visible.

The community members, their personalities (and their personality conflicts) say as much about this community as the things being FPP'd and the beefs dragged to MeTa.

It may not be perfect, but I like the fact that it tries to be (more often than not)
posted by Quartermass at 9:52 PM on August 27, 2003


Ahh, did the nasty man swear at you wulf? The way I think about these internet chats is that I never type anything that I wouldn't say to a persons face. I considered it deeply insulting to have you suggest I was"whining" and "bitching" and somehow lacking. I don't believe you would have the nerve to say that to me in person, and if you did you would consider yourself lucky if I only swore at you. Big deal, I felt you insulted me and I returned the compliment. Is it OK to be insulting as long as it's not "crude"? Thing is I left it at that and you run weeping to Metatalk. Feh.
posted by Joeforking at 1:04 AM on August 28, 2003


But joeforking, that's exactly what metatalk is for. Same as email. In a perfect world, if you have a problem with somebody, metatalk and email are supposed to be what you use to work them out. On a face to face level, your disdain for the mechanics of the system leaves me cold, and your willingness to accuse wulfgar of being a baby as well as the implied threat of bodily harm shows that you are just as much of a baby as anybody else.
posted by ashbury at 1:21 AM on August 28, 2003


only 1 in 5 americans supported the court's decision to remove the ten commandments.


The madman sheepishly extinguishes his morning latern and goes back to sleep.
posted by The God Complex at 1:44 AM on August 28, 2003


Oh, and I don't think flaming somebody is really very useful. Instead, why not point out the hideous ignorance in what they said (if it's that bad). It would probably work better if you're somewhat tactful and don't attempt to make a prick of yourself, but at times it's hard to pass up a particularly strong one-line zinger.

and if you did you would consider yourself lucky if I only swore at you.

Right on! I think that's what Wulfgar is going for: we should, if at all possible, descend into the virtual madness that is adolescent threatening--"Yeah, fuck you, I'd kick your ass, mother fucker. I got big muscles; I bet you're fat and sitting on the computer in your mom's basement. Fuck you, I'd fuck your mom, fuckhead. If I met you I'd beat you up because I know Tae Bo and have one of those electric ab machines."
posted by The God Complex at 1:50 AM on August 28, 2003


Just remember folks; you can't polish a turd.

you can if it's bronzed.
posted by t r a c y at 2:05 AM on August 28, 2003


I still maintain that the problem here is endemic to the Interwhatzitweb en toto. Most posters (myself included) when writing a post listen to their internal voice as a guide in regards to tone. What many fail to realize is that in IRL communication, the nonverbal aspect of it is huge. So, Poster X puts up his/her/it/quonsar's point of view forgetting that sarcasm and some of the most simple word play is simply lost and is misinterpreted. Flame wars ensue.

Also, posting on here is a lesser form of playacting. I, for one, have been a member of another board and when I actually met some of the people in a bar for some Hail-Well-Met-Young-Fellow beers, I was told that I am more polite in the flesh. Posting on here with a nom de plume (or guerre as some of the discussions has shown) allows us to express how we really feel with a lessened chance of any real repercussion (DoS attacked and spamming of personal pages nonwithstanding). I would grant that a majority of the members here, regardless of politics, have a modicum of manners. This 'typing' thingy we all engage in, especially when joined with the immediacy posting provides and the quick turnaround of responses due to the rather global nature of the Mes (MeFi and MeTa), gives a quick emotive response to those that feel that this is their chance to tell those Star-Bellied Sneetches what's what and then watch them twist in the breeze.

Manners, maturity and an ability to coherently write out one's thoughts are what is needed here. Alas, none of these can be enforced (save the intervention of The Divine matthowie) and so all we can do is count on the churn rate. Most of the rabid curs will drift away but not as quickly as we might want.
posted by Dagobert at 3:03 AM on August 28, 2003


"Yeah, fuck you, I'd kick your ass, mother fucker. I got big muscles; I bet you're fat and sitting on the computer in your mom's basement. Fuck you, I'd fuck your mom, fuckhead. If I met you I'd beat you up because I know Tae Bo and have one of those electric ab machines."
Who said that? Not me, my response to wulf was crude yes, but is that the worst thing that will happen today?
And what disdain for the system? One couple of lousy comments? I would never imply that someone was a turd in Metatalk, that is disdain for the system, it weakens the whole concept of this as a place to sort things out.
If anyone was upset my my swearing I apologise, however I stand by my assertion that wulf is a crybaby for bringing this issue here. And as such that is merely my opinion and worth little.
posted by Joeforking at 3:07 AM on August 28, 2003


Who said that?

yeah, who? I'm curious. you know, I missed that particular train wreck...
posted by matteo at 3:12 AM on August 28, 2003


I stand by my assertion that wulf is a crybaby for bringing this issue here.

Your courage doesn't extend to your profile. Where else was he going to take it?
posted by rcade at 4:09 AM on August 28, 2003


Matt deleted Joeforking's childish littlle rant in the MeFi thread.

Joeforking: you need to chill out and stop cursing at people. Sure your little tirade isn't the worst thing that will happen today, but it's sure not helping.

I've known a lot of turds, and you, sir, are quite definitely a turd.
posted by bshort at 5:14 AM on August 28, 2003


rcade what point is there in emailing me? It was a one off intemperate outburst and that's all. I had no intention of starting a full scale war like son of sam or whatever he was called. I have apologised and as far as I am concerned the matter is over.
bshort you do not know me, I have plainly chilled out, and your calculatedly childish behaviour further reinforces my point about weakening the usefulness of MeTa as a medium for resolving disputes. Now go away of I'll swear at you.
posted by Joeforking at 5:31 AM on August 28, 2003


Joeforking: you're right, I don't know you. All I know about you are your now deleted comments in the environmentalism thread and your comments here.

You're a turd. Or at least your MeFi persona is.

<sarcasm>
And yeah, I'm being childish. That's the problem here.
</sarcasm>

Don't forget: MeTa is all about the crapping.
posted by bshort at 5:35 AM on August 28, 2003


"I don't believe you would have the nerve to say that to me in person, and if you did you would consider yourself lucky if I only swore at you."

As someone who's known Wulgar! for close to 25 years now, I can assure you you're doubly wrong about that. He would be the last person to talk trash on-line that he wouldn't say in real life. And he's a gentle bear, but still a bear.

Wulfgar!: "Since we can't stop being dickheads, can't we at least be a bit less juvenile about it?"

Joeforking: "Fuck you chicken shit. I'll kick you ass."

He's kicking your ass dude. You just don't get it.
posted by y6y6y6 at 6:10 AM on August 28, 2003


I had no intention of starting a full scale war like son of sam or whatever he was called.

I am soooo willing to bet the dog's full name was Harvey q. Carr.
posted by trondant at 7:11 AM on August 28, 2003


Just remember folks; you can't polish a turd.

you can if it's bronzed.


Screw that. Bake it and varnish it. Simple and cost-effective.
posted by walrus at 8:05 AM on August 28, 2003


I have apologised and as far as I am concerned the matter is over.

And what an apology it was:
If anyone was upset my my swearing I apologise, however I stand by my assertion that wulf is a crybaby for bringing this issue here.
Between the threats of physical violence, all the crybaby name-calling, and the apology, you're not in much position to offer advise on dispute resolution. Quit while you're behind.
posted by rcade at 8:27 AM on August 28, 2003


In the now mathowie-scrubbed post, I actually recommended the agenda-slamming hissy fit be taken to MetaTalk, and although that didn't keep me from putting my foot in it, too (note that my post no longer appears; there's a reason) I still stand with Wulfgar! that this is the place for the discussion.

Joeforking, your language is inappropriate -- cut that shit out.
posted by me3dia at 8:44 AM on August 28, 2003


This thread stinks.
posted by konolia at 8:45 AM on August 28, 2003


konolia - maybe it's all the crap and turds floating around in it?
posted by tr33hggr at 9:01 AM on August 28, 2003


I don't believe you would have the nerve to say that to me in person, and if you did you would consider yourself lucky if I only swore at you.

like what, cut off your right hand?
posted by quonsar at 10:42 AM on August 28, 2003


OK, quonsar... eeeeeeasy does it...
posted by soyjoy at 10:55 AM on August 28, 2003


No, go on quonsar.
posted by ashbury at 11:02 AM on August 28, 2003


One can only hope that this will all end with interesting reading, followed by permanent bannings.
posted by thirteen at 11:30 AM on August 28, 2003


The Chinaman is not the issue here, Dude.
posted by xmutex at 12:42 PM on August 28, 2003


One can only hope that this will all end with interesting reading, followed by permanent bannings.

Schadenfreude, darling, schadenfreude,
Thank you for all the joy and pain.
Though we go on our separate ways,
Still the mem'ry stays, for always,
My heart says, schadenfreude. Schadenfreude, auf weidershein, Schadenfreude.
posted by timeistight at 12:48 PM on August 28, 2003


Dude, Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 1:27 PM on August 28, 2003


I always liked Oriental, like a rug or the Avenue.
posted by Stan Chin at 1:57 PM on August 28, 2003


This is not a guy who built the railroads, here.
posted by yerfatma at 2:29 PM on August 28, 2003


I always liked Oriental, like a rug or the Avenue

Ya know, that rug really tied the room together.
posted by jonson at 3:10 PM on August 28, 2003


Finally have a moment to catch up on this, and I have a few things to clarify. Anyone who's read more than 10 of my comments in the blue knows full well that I don't have a problem with swearing. So dismiss that little goblin right now, shall we?
This isn't about the use of profanity. It's about laziness. There's a whole lotta people who think this is some kind of discussion board, and agenda posting is anti-discussion. Uhhh ... no and no. This is about the cool stuff found on the web. But we've almost gotten so "community" oriented that we forget that the web itself is dynamic and presentive, rife with the radical, the offensive, and the just plain stupid. Some people are going to mine those veins of the web, and brag about the ore they find right here on MetaFilter. Claiming they have an agenda is a) duh now, and b) claiming that that stuff isn't worthy of the web, or at least "our" part of it. Does that strike anybody else as just wrong? The Web is what it is. MetaFilter finds it (piano playing penii, horrible relational break-ups, crazy animal antics, and significant world movements, all in one handy Christmas gift-pack). If we talk about it, fine. But it's about the finding, not the flapping our gums (winging our fingers).

Strangely enough, sometimes people in our community disagree with what we find. They want to object, they want to block it out, they want to attack us for offending their sense of virtue. Great, that's gonna happen, no problem. But I, for one, hate when they get lazy about the attack, and rely on some kind of insular community consciousness to do the dirty work. Agenda-filter, what a goofy concept. Hey, really, no-shit. People have agendas. What the hell is wrong with that? Are they being mean to your beliefs? Are they forcing you to look at the variety of the Web when you just want to see kittens? Are they trolling? Really, I just want to see some honest smack-down highbrow sarcasm if you're going to flame somebody for violating your meta-space. If there's an honest gripe, make it here in the grey. If you want to say "you're making me uncomfortable with your post" then say it all balsy like, with an argument and creative jabs. For pitys sake, don't rely on some misguided idea of community to do your work for you. Quit being lazy.

I guess, for me, it boils down to this. If you can't attack the one who offends you, at least give them something interesting and amusing to read, and the rest of us too, 'cause that really is what we're here for. "Go fuck yourself" just doesn't make the grade.

A private aside to Joeforking, you will notice that the admin here 'bouts deleted my comment as well as yours. That's because they belonged over here, not in the blue. You don't like me posting to MetaTalk? Tough. You felt I insulted you and hurt your feels? Good. Ya see, you don't know me, either. All we've got between us is the blue and the grey. Remember, MetaTalk ain't about resolving disputes. It's about community ... you know ... the real kind. Not that fake stuff that comes in a bottle (or comment).
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:25 PM on August 28, 2003


Schadenfreude, darling, schadenfreude,
Thank you for all the joy and pain...


Now where have I heard that before?
posted by y2karl at 7:16 PM on August 28, 2003


Oww!! I've plagiarized y2karl! Damn my larcenous subconscious mind. Well, there's nothing to do but turn over all my royalties to you, y2karl.

Really, I'm sorry. I thought I thought of it myself.
posted by timeistight at 9:56 PM on August 28, 2003


but, TIT yours was to the tune of Edelweiss, no? It's an entirely different thing.
posted by jonson at 10:30 PM on August 28, 2003


No, wait, upon review, you're clearly doing Danke Schoen. Well, then, to hell with you. Karl, unleash your lawyers!
posted by jonson at 10:30 PM on August 28, 2003


Really, I'm sorry. I thought I thought of it myself.

Sure, that's what George Harrison said, too.

We should do a proper MetaWeird Al Yankovic Contest on this.
We've got the theme: Schadenfreude. Flames. Ad hominem attacks. Swearing. Cursing. Profanity. Saying Poop in front of the Ladies Auxiliary. Threats. Tantrums. Peanut gallery. Konolia Non Sequiteria. The Big Lebowski. Viking Warriors. Cute Kitties.
Cute Kitties Dressed As Viking Warriors, and so forth...

And naturally all our copyright will belong to us.
Take that, Le Show.

Here are the lyrics of the original:

Danke Schoen, darling Danke Schoen.
Thank you for all the joy and pain.
Picture shows, second balcony,
was the place we'd meet,
second seat,
go Dutch treat,
you were sweet.

Danke Schoen, darling Danke Schoen.
Thank you for walks down lovers lane.
I can see, hearts carved on a tree,
letters inter-twined,
for all time,
yours and mine,
that was fine.

Danke Schoen, darling Danke Scheon.
Thank you for funny cards from Spain.
I recall, Central Park in fall,
how you tore your dress,
what a mess,
I confess,
thats not all.

Danke Schoen, darling Danke Schoen.
Thank you for seeing me again.
Though we go, on our separate ways,
still the memory stays,
for always,
my heart says,
Danke Schoen.

Danke Schoen, Auf Wiedersehn, Danke Schoen.


Ladies, Gentlemen and chronically masturbating teenage libertarian boys, you may start your keyboards now.
posted by y2karl at 11:18 PM on August 28, 2003


o, y2karl! sometimes i love u!!!
posted by taz at 5:08 AM on August 29, 2003


I'll try to whip one up tonight after work. It'll be my penance.
posted by timeistight at 9:36 AM on August 29, 2003


Just one thing y2karl - "Ladies Auxiliary"? As in an addendum, an afterthought, a not-fully fledged MeFi member? Sir, I must protest!
posted by Lynsey at 12:08 PM on August 29, 2003


It's a figure of speech--not a reference.
posted by y2karl at 12:16 PM on August 29, 2003


Konolia Non Sequiteria

Huh?


I'll take Cute Kitties for one hundred, Alex...
posted by konolia at 12:45 PM on August 29, 2003


Try rug-peeing Chinamen for $800
posted by trondant at 2:26 AM on August 30, 2003


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