Is Metafilter more gay-friendly than other sites like it? September 8, 2004 9:40 PM Subscribe
Are gay MeFites more comfortable making themselves known as such here than in other general-interest forums? If so, is it the anonymity or the community? Or something else?
IMHO it's the community. Here it's more of a "so you're gay, so what" as opposed to another board I frequent where there is enough homophobic commentary to keep it in the closet, even though the majority doesn't care. Here it seems more of a recognition/acceptance that being gay is part of who the person is, as opposed to all of who he/she is. Sort of like moving beyond the novelty & difference and regarding it simply as a community of varied, contributing individuals.
posted by yoga at 4:48 AM on September 9, 2004
posted by yoga at 4:48 AM on September 9, 2004
It is much better here than elsewhere; but there's still a sense that the out Mefites are tokens to a degree. Too often, the out Mefites are put in the position of being spokespeople for gays and lesbians. That's really not fair to them. But this is true of female Mefites, too (with regard to their sex).
The antigay cultural conservatives here often complain that MeFi, as a whole, averages to being something of an advocacy community for homosexuals. I think that's an overstatement. Nevertheless, there's so many places on the web—perhaps the majority—where intensely hateful antigay rhetoric is the norm that it's hard for me to take that complaint seriously, even if it were true.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:59 AM on September 9, 2004
The antigay cultural conservatives here often complain that MeFi, as a whole, averages to being something of an advocacy community for homosexuals. I think that's an overstatement. Nevertheless, there's so many places on the web—perhaps the majority—where intensely hateful antigay rhetoric is the norm that it's hard for me to take that complaint seriously, even if it were true.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:59 AM on September 9, 2004
If anyone didn't feel comfortable outing themselves on MeFi, would they participate in this thread? Seems like you're bound to get a skewed response.
posted by scarabic at 12:43 PM on September 9, 2004
posted by scarabic at 12:43 PM on September 9, 2004
I'm just out everywhere because I'm lazy and not smart enough to keep my lies straight. (So to speak) That said, I come out a lot faster wherever my paycheck has no chance of being impacted negatively, and where there is a conversation which might lead me to need to come out. If nobody's talking about their wives around the virtual water cooler, I don't talk about mine either.
posted by pomegranate at 1:27 PM on September 9, 2004
posted by pomegranate at 1:27 PM on September 9, 2004
I was thinking the same thing, scarabic...
To answer the original question, no, I'm not personally more "out" on MetaFilter than I am in other online venues -and surely not more than in real life, for that matter but in neither online nor offline life would I think of being gay as "who I am," so I can't see that it matters, anyway. If my sexual preference is relevant to a given discussion, I may have cause to refer to the fact, but in the same way that I'd bring to a discussion of, say, how big oil companies are evil incarnate my own experience as the unrepentant owner of an SUV. It's a really big world, and some people don't like people who are gay, and they may decide not to like me because I'm gay - but, well, that's their issue, not mine...
posted by JollyWanker at 1:32 PM on September 9, 2004
To answer the original question, no, I'm not personally more "out" on MetaFilter than I am in other online venues -and surely not more than in real life, for that matter but in neither online nor offline life would I think of being gay as "who I am," so I can't see that it matters, anyway. If my sexual preference is relevant to a given discussion, I may have cause to refer to the fact, but in the same way that I'd bring to a discussion of, say, how big oil companies are evil incarnate my own experience as the unrepentant owner of an SUV. It's a really big world, and some people don't like people who are gay, and they may decide not to like me because I'm gay - but, well, that's their issue, not mine...
posted by JollyWanker at 1:32 PM on September 9, 2004
Not everyone has always thought that MeFi was particularly gay-friendly.
That was an eye-opening thread for me. (Also because it contains one of Matt's funnier moments, which occasionally resounds in my head: "I'm all about the gay!")
posted by gleuschk at 2:04 PM on September 9, 2004
That was an eye-opening thread for me. (Also because it contains one of Matt's funnier moments, which occasionally resounds in my head: "I'm all about the gay!")
posted by gleuschk at 2:04 PM on September 9, 2004
I wouldn't know--I've never been in the closet, at least not on the Internet. Almost from the time I got my first post-BBS account (Prodigy! yay!) around age 13, I was chatting up girls. :-)
(It took a little longer to warm up to guys, too, no doubt because of the wild variance in maturity levels between teenage boys and teenage girls. And I was out IRL at 18-19.)
So, the idea of being closeted on the web, of all places, is just bizarre to me. I mean, what kind of "general-interest forums" are you talking about? Because if I'm on a BB for, say, a gaming community, I don't see how or why my orientation would enter into the discussion. But if it comes up in other specific-interest BB's or forums (like, say, genealogy) I have no problems asking questions about queer issues (i.e. how can we denote same-sex marriages in current family tree programs which were coded to require opposite sex members of a marriage?), although they don't necessarily apply to me, per se, just my gay relatives or other people's gay relatives.
Oddly enough, there's one area on Metafilter where I don't always feel comfortable mentioning my sexuality: the omnipresent "gay Republicans are stoopid"/"all Republicans are homophobes" threads. I just don't want to get continually involved in justifying my existence as both openly queer and mostly-right-wing. The hostility and hatred in those threads just turns me off, so I usually just skip over them. I've never ever had a problem being Out at the few politics-related events, clubs, forums, or sites I've participated in (and yes, that includes the very rare post to sites like Free Republic), and yet I'm very wary of being Out about my political views at pro-gay websites, because of the shit that will almost certainly get piled upon my poor head. Hell, the first death threat I ever got was for the crime of re-posting an Andrew Sullivan article (about gay issues in the 2000 Election) to my college Queer Students Association listserve--and getting replies of "no offense, but I think all conservatives should be killed" and things like that, because Sullivan and I were (*gasp!*) leaning towards voting for Bush that year.
(Obligatory justification-of-my-existence that I now feel forced to put into this thread: I'm not voting for Bush this year--specifically because of his ugly support for the Federal Marriage Amendment.)
And for the record, I do really appreciate how open and blase we all are on MeFi about our sexuality (or lack thereof)--but even if it weren't that way, I don't know that I'd act or write any differently.
posted by Asparagirl at 2:22 PM on September 9, 2004
(It took a little longer to warm up to guys, too, no doubt because of the wild variance in maturity levels between teenage boys and teenage girls. And I was out IRL at 18-19.)
So, the idea of being closeted on the web, of all places, is just bizarre to me. I mean, what kind of "general-interest forums" are you talking about? Because if I'm on a BB for, say, a gaming community, I don't see how or why my orientation would enter into the discussion. But if it comes up in other specific-interest BB's or forums (like, say, genealogy) I have no problems asking questions about queer issues (i.e. how can we denote same-sex marriages in current family tree programs which were coded to require opposite sex members of a marriage?), although they don't necessarily apply to me, per se, just my gay relatives or other people's gay relatives.
Oddly enough, there's one area on Metafilter where I don't always feel comfortable mentioning my sexuality: the omnipresent "gay Republicans are stoopid"/"all Republicans are homophobes" threads. I just don't want to get continually involved in justifying my existence as both openly queer and mostly-right-wing. The hostility and hatred in those threads just turns me off, so I usually just skip over them. I've never ever had a problem being Out at the few politics-related events, clubs, forums, or sites I've participated in (and yes, that includes the very rare post to sites like Free Republic), and yet I'm very wary of being Out about my political views at pro-gay websites, because of the shit that will almost certainly get piled upon my poor head. Hell, the first death threat I ever got was for the crime of re-posting an Andrew Sullivan article (about gay issues in the 2000 Election) to my college Queer Students Association listserve--and getting replies of "no offense, but I think all conservatives should be killed" and things like that, because Sullivan and I were (*gasp!*) leaning towards voting for Bush that year.
(Obligatory justification-of-my-existence that I now feel forced to put into this thread: I'm not voting for Bush this year--specifically because of his ugly support for the Federal Marriage Amendment.)
And for the record, I do really appreciate how open and blase we all are on MeFi about our sexuality (or lack thereof)--but even if it weren't that way, I don't know that I'd act or write any differently.
posted by Asparagirl at 2:22 PM on September 9, 2004
Are gay MeFites more comfortable making themselves known as such here than in other general-interest forums? - NortonDC.
It _is_ much better here than elsewhere - Ethereal Bligh.
Please don't take this the wrong way, EB, but - are you speaking for the gay community there? You're not actually a member of that community, are you? How would you know?
posted by dash_slot- at 2:44 PM on September 9, 2004
It _is_ much better here than elsewhere - Ethereal Bligh.
Please don't take this the wrong way, EB, but - are you speaking for the gay community there? You're not actually a member of that community, are you? How would you know?
posted by dash_slot- at 2:44 PM on September 9, 2004
The message boards on which I participate most are music-related and my bisexuality there has been irrelevant (so far).
The nature of MeFi however is all about 'fuck and be fucked'. So, there you go. ;-P
posted by mischief at 3:49 PM on September 9, 2004
The nature of MeFi however is all about 'fuck and be fucked'. So, there you go. ;-P
posted by mischief at 3:49 PM on September 9, 2004
Well, I can tell you that racism is worse in Texas than in many other places and I'm not black.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:13 PM on September 9, 2004
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 4:13 PM on September 9, 2004
Shame, Asparagirl. Think of the blown "Lesbians For Bush" bumper sticker opportunities.
posted by jonson at 4:32 PM on September 9, 2004
posted by jonson at 4:32 PM on September 9, 2004
It is much better here than elsewhere; but there's still a sense that the out Mefites are tokens to a degree. Too often, the out Mefites are put in the position of being spokespeople for gays and lesbians. That's really not fair to them. But this is true of female Mefites, too (with regard to their sex).
Jesus shit.
The more I try to make sense of that the crappier it looks. It reveals that you think that there is a sense that we are tokens, 'to a degree'. That tells me a lot about you, EB, and not a fucking thing about how comfortable gay mefites are here.
Well, I can tell you that racism is worse in Texas than in many other places and I'm not black.
Well, you could tell me that: but if the black community were asked, "Is Detroit more friendly than LA? If so, is it because of 'X' or is it because of 'Y'" - would you jump in and say what your assessment of life, as a black guy, in those places was?
Personally, I'd rather not have openly straight guys speak up for me, and tell me that the gay guys 'n' gals are tokens, as are the straight gals, and that it's really quite nice here for 'them'.
Not to dismss the supportive comments you went on to make in that post, but you are not entitled to make the assessment. Shut up about it please.
Norton:
this is the only place I would call myself comfortable in, on the net. It's the only place I am truly a member of. I would, if I belonged anywhere else [don't belong at other community blogs], also be out. It's both anonymity AND community, plus the fact that some straights here - quite a few, indeed - effortlessly support homosexuals because they see us as sisters & brothers. I am frequently moved by this.
Asparagirl:
there are issues that you and I have a great deal of agreement on, and so I listen when you speak. It's the difficulty I have in plucking my feathers, making cranberry sauce and voting for Christmas that makes me reconsider my true Turkey destiny. Agree-to-differ time, I guess: but I'd love to see you in those Log Cabin threads - you don't post enough here.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:15 PM on September 9, 2004
Jesus shit.
The more I try to make sense of that the crappier it looks. It reveals that you think that there is a sense that we are tokens, 'to a degree'. That tells me a lot about you, EB, and not a fucking thing about how comfortable gay mefites are here.
Well, I can tell you that racism is worse in Texas than in many other places and I'm not black.
Well, you could tell me that: but if the black community were asked, "Is Detroit more friendly than LA? If so, is it because of 'X' or is it because of 'Y'" - would you jump in and say what your assessment of life, as a black guy, in those places was?
Personally, I'd rather not have openly straight guys speak up for me, and tell me that the gay guys 'n' gals are tokens, as are the straight gals, and that it's really quite nice here for 'them'.
Not to dismss the supportive comments you went on to make in that post, but you are not entitled to make the assessment. Shut up about it please.
Norton:
this is the only place I would call myself comfortable in, on the net. It's the only place I am truly a member of. I would, if I belonged anywhere else [don't belong at other community blogs], also be out. It's both anonymity AND community, plus the fact that some straights here - quite a few, indeed - effortlessly support homosexuals because they see us as sisters & brothers. I am frequently moved by this.
Asparagirl:
there are issues that you and I have a great deal of agreement on, and so I listen when you speak. It's the difficulty I have in plucking my feathers, making cranberry sauce and voting for Christmas that makes me reconsider my true Turkey destiny. Agree-to-differ time, I guess: but I'd love to see you in those Log Cabin threads - you don't post enough here.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:15 PM on September 9, 2004
Like Asparagirl, I've never considered being closeted online. In fact, before coming out to my parents about 10 years ago, I sought answers and encouragement in a usenet group.
I came to MeFi for the links, but I stayed for the liberalism. ;-) It's not so much that it's an actively supportive community per se for glbt's - it's more a matter of "hey! here are some pretty bright, funny people who share a lot of interests and outlooks with me." Would I stay if the predominant attitude were conservative/bigoted? No. But given that it's not full of bigots, matters of sexual orientation tend not to occupy much mental space while I'm here. It's a luxury one doesn't always have IRL.
Confidential to Witty: how dare you make a list of notable cocksuckers and assholes, and forget to include me!
posted by stonerose at 5:53 PM on September 9, 2004
I came to MeFi for the links, but I stayed for the liberalism. ;-) It's not so much that it's an actively supportive community per se for glbt's - it's more a matter of "hey! here are some pretty bright, funny people who share a lot of interests and outlooks with me." Would I stay if the predominant attitude were conservative/bigoted? No. But given that it's not full of bigots, matters of sexual orientation tend not to occupy much mental space while I'm here. It's a luxury one doesn't always have IRL.
Confidential to Witty: how dare you make a list of notable cocksuckers and assholes, and forget to include me!
posted by stonerose at 5:53 PM on September 9, 2004
dash_slot, I think you're being unfair to EB here. His first paragraph is supported by the very existence of this thread. His second paragraph seems like purely the observations of an outsider. He's not claiming insight into the gay Mefite experience, just speculating from a sympathetic perspective, which seems very much in the spirit of what NortonDC was asking. Or do you think that heterosexuals should not be allowed to comment in this thread?
posted by Songdog at 6:10 PM on September 9, 2004
posted by Songdog at 6:10 PM on September 9, 2004
Shame, Asparagirl. Think of the blown "Lesbians For Bush" bumper sticker opportunities.
Yes, I know. What's more, I'm bisexual, so I could have therefore supported both Bush and Dick. [sigh]
But I'm also a newlywed in a very happy (opposite-sex) marriage and can't imagine denying this kind of bliss to...well, me, had my hunny-bunny been of the same gender, which could just as easily have happened, 50-50 chance and all that.
So no one who votes/voted for the FMA will get my vote, end of story. And certainly not the asshat who proposed it in the first place.
posted by Asparagirl at 6:15 PM on September 9, 2004
Yes, I know. What's more, I'm bisexual, so I could have therefore supported both Bush and Dick. [sigh]
But I'm also a newlywed in a very happy (opposite-sex) marriage and can't imagine denying this kind of bliss to...well, me, had my hunny-bunny been of the same gender, which could just as easily have happened, 50-50 chance and all that.
So no one who votes/voted for the FMA will get my vote, end of story. And certainly not the asshat who proposed it in the first place.
posted by Asparagirl at 6:15 PM on September 9, 2004
Ah, identity politics. Aren't they fun? I was making an observation which, I think, is self-evidently true. MeFi is better than most other web sites. For the record, unless I preface a statement with "Speaking as an X", I'm not acting or pretending to act as a spokesperson for any group.
On the other hand, I subscribe to the radical notion that even though I'm not female, I can be aware of and assess the prevalance of sexism; even though I'm not gay, I can be aware of and assess the prevelance of antigay bigotry; even though I'm not overweight, I can be aware of and assess the prevelance of, well, whatever you call it; even though I'm not a racial minority, I can be aware of and asess the prevelance of racism. Additionally, even though I'm a USAian, I have the magical ability to be aware of and assess the prevelance of USA chauvinism here on MeFi.
Amazing, huh?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:21 PM on September 9, 2004
On the other hand, I subscribe to the radical notion that even though I'm not female, I can be aware of and assess the prevalance of sexism; even though I'm not gay, I can be aware of and assess the prevelance of antigay bigotry; even though I'm not overweight, I can be aware of and assess the prevelance of, well, whatever you call it; even though I'm not a racial minority, I can be aware of and asess the prevelance of racism. Additionally, even though I'm a USAian, I have the magical ability to be aware of and assess the prevelance of USA chauvinism here on MeFi.
Amazing, huh?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:21 PM on September 9, 2004
Pre MetaTalk post, I was mulling why the gaiety (heh) of conversation participants seems so much more breezily shared here than other fora I've read, such as Fark, some movie sites, Slashdot, etc. I considered both anonymity and community as likely influences, but was intrigued by the apparent conflict between those two elements, and decided to ask how those countervaling forces interplayed for the folks that prompted my original ruminations.
That's the train of thought that led to the question.
posted by NortonDC at 6:32 PM on September 9, 2004
That's the train of thought that led to the question.
posted by NortonDC at 6:32 PM on September 9, 2004
"It is much better here than elsewhere"
songdog:
Speculating? That would be pronouncing, not tentatively offering one's musings.
I am not NortonDC, I'd like to know whether he was expecting
- answers from gay Mefites + comments from others, or
- answers from straights + comments from gays, or what. Maybe he can clarify. I would definitely interpret the question as being targetted at gay Mefites, and am astonished that someone outside that group would answer so definitively.
On the other hand, I subscribe to the radical notion that even though I'm not female, I can be aware of and assess the prevalance of sexism; even though I'm not gay, I can be aware of and assess the prevelance of antigay bigotry; even though I'm not overweight, I can be aware of and assess the prevelance of, well, whatever you call it; even though I'm not a racial minority, I can be aware of and asess the prevelance of racism. Additionally, even though I'm a USAian, I have the magical ability to be aware of and assess the prevelance of USA chauvinism here on MeFi.
Really? That's fucking amazing, ma-a-an. Aware of... assess.... prevalence... then pronounce....patronise...prattle on about your talents, which are prodigious and pure, and are without end.
The difference between your perception and the reality is where do you feel it when 111 or hama7 [to take 2 of several homophobes here] shits on you: in the pit of your stomach, in the front of your brain.
Do not assess the comfort I have here on my behalf: you don't have the capacity.
Leave it out. Keep schtum. Zip it.
Please.
posted by dash_slot- at 6:54 PM on September 9, 2004
songdog:
Speculating? That would be pronouncing, not tentatively offering one's musings.
I am not NortonDC, I'd like to know whether he was expecting
- answers from gay Mefites + comments from others, or
- answers from straights + comments from gays, or what. Maybe he can clarify. I would definitely interpret the question as being targetted at gay Mefites, and am astonished that someone outside that group would answer so definitively.
On the other hand, I subscribe to the radical notion that even though I'm not female, I can be aware of and assess the prevalance of sexism; even though I'm not gay, I can be aware of and assess the prevelance of antigay bigotry; even though I'm not overweight, I can be aware of and assess the prevelance of, well, whatever you call it; even though I'm not a racial minority, I can be aware of and asess the prevelance of racism. Additionally, even though I'm a USAian, I have the magical ability to be aware of and assess the prevelance of USA chauvinism here on MeFi.
Really? That's fucking amazing, ma-a-an. Aware of... assess.... prevalence... then pronounce....patronise...prattle on about your talents, which are prodigious and pure, and are without end.
The difference between your perception and the reality is where do you feel it when 111 or hama7 [to take 2 of several homophobes here] shits on you: in the pit of your stomach, in the front of your brain.
Do not assess the comfort I have here on my behalf: you don't have the capacity.
Leave it out. Keep schtum. Zip it.
Please.
posted by dash_slot- at 6:54 PM on September 9, 2004
Amazing, huh?
I don't really want to jump into this ugliness, but perhaps what you mean is that you can perceive persecution well enough, whether it's directed at you or not. I tend to agree that you can tell quite easily when a place is *hostile*to a certain group. For one thing, the hostile folks try to get you in on the fun as soon as you show up. To claim that whites can't sense racism is equivalent to saying that we're not offended by it, which is itself offensive and idiotic.
However, making a definitive call on the *comfort* of a group (to which you doesn't belong) is a little more delicate, and difficult. There's active hostility, and then there's comfort, active hapiness, a positive sense of welcome. As a male whose straightness is a little shy of 100%, I'd say I feel less pressure to affect 100% heterosexuality here than other places. But, that being only a small part of me, my opinion on the subject is of small weight in the discussion.
It's a simple enough point, boys. You're both right. Let it go.
posted by scarabic at 7:08 PM on September 9, 2004
Clearling, the gooding speakery of Englishes is a group to which I doesn't belong, neither.
posted by scarabic at 7:10 PM on September 9, 2004
posted by scarabic at 7:10 PM on September 9, 2004
scarabic: I agree. Of course I get offended by others racism, but I would look to the discriminated minority for the an accurate description of the state of play in a location. Thats because a lot of prejudice is subtle, below the radar stuff, and I'm not calibrated for it.
You got it right, imho - at 7:08, I mean (",)
posted by dash_slot- at 7:23 PM on September 9, 2004
You got it right, imho - at 7:08, I mean (",)
posted by dash_slot- at 7:23 PM on September 9, 2004
I've tried to mix gay and straight friends only to hear complaints afterward that the crowd was "too straight" or "too gay." This is all in a friendly atmosphere, with absolutely no question of violence or persecution of any kind. But for some gays, an otherwise nice party can be just too exclusively straight to enjoy. Conversely, some straight folks feel too out of their element at a gay club. It's not necessarily that they hate gays or feel their asses burning or whatever, they just can't pick up the vibe, relax, and have fun. They feel conspicuous, out of place, they order the wrong beer, they're dressed like shit for it, etc.
There's a huge difference between being accepted and having a good time. I think part of NortonDC's question might be: if you tell a queer joke, does anybody in the room laugh (let alone bash your head in)?
posted by scarabic at 7:46 PM on September 9, 2004
There's a huge difference between being accepted and having a good time. I think part of NortonDC's question might be: if you tell a queer joke, does anybody in the room laugh (let alone bash your head in)?
posted by scarabic at 7:46 PM on September 9, 2004
Does anybody mind if I just go ahead and not give a shit who is and is not gay?
posted by majick at 10:05 PM on September 9, 2004
posted by majick at 10:05 PM on September 9, 2004
You'd better not shit anywhere until we figure out if this is that kind of orgy.
posted by scarabic at 10:29 PM on September 9, 2004
posted by scarabic at 10:29 PM on September 9, 2004
There is a difference between being smart and being wise. I suggest that at least one participant in this thread might do well to deeply ponder that idea.
My experience of MF has been one of general trust: trust that my voice will be respected so long as I'm speak and listen well and trust that I will not be pre-judged between threads.
It's in that atmosphere that I have shared things that I do not share with co-workers and acquaintances, and even some f2f friends.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:41 PM on September 9, 2004
My experience of MF has been one of general trust: trust that my voice will be respected so long as I'm speak and listen well and trust that I will not be pre-judged between threads.
It's in that atmosphere that I have shared things that I do not share with co-workers and acquaintances, and even some f2f friends.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:41 PM on September 9, 2004
"Here it seems more of a recognition/acceptance that being gay is part of who the person is, as opposed to all of who he/she is."
I may not be gay, but that is exactly how I look at it.
posted by Keyser Soze at 12:16 AM on September 10, 2004
I may not be gay, but that is exactly how I look at it.
posted by Keyser Soze at 12:16 AM on September 10, 2004
There is a difference between being smart and being wise.
True. Only of those gives you extra ranks and bonus spells as a Sorceror/Wizard.
posted by Danelope at 12:56 AM on September 10, 2004
True. Only of those gives you extra ranks and bonus spells as a Sorceror/Wizard.
posted by Danelope at 12:56 AM on September 10, 2004
I subscribe to the radical notion that even though I'm not female, I can be aware of and assess the prevalance of sexism
EB, do you realise that your statement is actually sexist itself?
Does anybody mind if I just go ahead and not give a shit who is and is not gay?
majick, I'll not give a shit along with you.
How about this people, the old internet cliche:-
"On the net, we're all equal. We can talk about inequalities in the real world, but on the net, we're all equal."
posted by SpaceCadet at 1:24 AM on September 10, 2004
EB, do you realise that your statement is actually sexist itself?
Does anybody mind if I just go ahead and not give a shit who is and is not gay?
majick, I'll not give a shit along with you.
How about this people, the old internet cliche:-
"On the net, we're all equal. We can talk about inequalities in the real world, but on the net, we're all equal."
posted by SpaceCadet at 1:24 AM on September 10, 2004
I make concerted efforts to not treat people based on a label I might assign them or a label that they assign themselves. I have trouble with all labeling of persons or peoples because it necessarily reduces them to a stereotype. 'This person exhibits these traits, period.' Instead I go for the 'This person exhibits these traits, and probably some other stuff that I don't know anything about.' Since I don't have all the information available, who am I to judge?
I am also quite callous and could care less about what individuals choose to not do or do in regard to their own lives.
What was the question again?
posted by sciurus at 6:39 AM on September 10, 2004
I am also quite callous and could care less about what individuals choose to not do or do in regard to their own lives.
What was the question again?
posted by sciurus at 6:39 AM on September 10, 2004
I'm with Asparagirl on two things. First, I had an 8-bit Prodigy account myself. And I've pretty much never not been out. Like pomegranate, it's too confusing! Hell, my gender is listed as dyke. How much more out can I get?
posted by etoile at 7:21 AM on September 10, 2004
posted by etoile at 7:21 AM on September 10, 2004
I'm not gay, female, or part of a recognized racial/ethnic minority (where are the half-Norwegian pride groups, dammit?), and while I sympathize strongly with the efforts of all those groups to achieve equality and I despise the bigotry that's still all too prevalent, I would never dream of assessing the comfort level any of them might feel here or anywhere else. The Greeks had a word for that.
posted by languagehat at 7:26 AM on September 10, 2004
posted by languagehat at 7:26 AM on September 10, 2004
This post.
That post.
Magical abilities, indeed.
posted by dash_slot- at 7:49 AM on September 10, 2004
That post.
Magical abilities, indeed.
posted by dash_slot- at 7:49 AM on September 10, 2004
It's all about the juices.
Which is pretty weird, when you think about it.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:50 AM on September 10, 2004
Which is pretty weird, when you think about it.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:50 AM on September 10, 2004
Ha, Jon, that's exactly what I thought reading EB's post.
posted by astruc at 9:14 AM on September 10, 2004
posted by astruc at 9:14 AM on September 10, 2004
YES! Another glaring self-contradiction NAILED to the wall! Ice cream!
posted by scarabic at 3:26 PM on September 10, 2004
posted by scarabic at 3:26 PM on September 10, 2004
My best and by far closest friend of 13 years and current roommate (until I move in a few weeks) is a gay man. I asked him to look over this thread and tell me "where I went wrong". After we had discussed it for a while, he told me to feel free to invoke his name if I wanted to post another comment. I said, "Nah, it's pretty lame to do the whole 'my gay friend said...' thing." "No, no", he said, "I, as a gay man, delegate you to speak on my behalf where I am otherwise unable to speak. Abd who are you to question my delegation? You're straight."
Well, he didn't take any offense at all from my comment and it wouldn't even have occured to him to take offense. For my part, after looking the thread over and talking about it, I realized that where I went wrong was in my sarcastic and defensive response. He said, well it was understandable. I said, well, it was understandable that dash_slot might be unusually sensitive. And, he mentioned that it would have been better if I had waited until later in the thread to jump in.
I'm very sensitive to patronisation and condescension toward people that poses as "enlightened" concern. If you read what I write here, in this context, and elsewhere, you'll see that I don't presume to speak for other people in this context—and when I speak out about anything, I'm not doing so for their benefit. Long ago, however, I decided that in these sorts of matters, whether I or anyone else likes it or not, it does involve me. I'm part of a sexist, racist, homophobic society. As a white, straight, male, I'm even more than most complicit if I pretend that "it doesn't involve me". Racism, sexism, homophobia offend and hurt me by their nature. I don't know and don't claim to know what it's like to personally be the target of these things. But I'm very aware of their existence, and they bother me...a lot. I notice them. I've especially noticed in many places online a very virulent, shocking, casual antigay bigotry—my experience in the Yahoo! Financial boards was in mind when I wrote my comment. I don't think there's any doubt that MeFi is a much nicer place than many, and generally nicer than most. I assume that this means it's more comfortable for gays here, but if you read my comment, I didn't say that. I only commented on the atmosphere here, which I do have direct experience of, even if I'm not a target.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:02 PM on September 10, 2004
Well, he didn't take any offense at all from my comment and it wouldn't even have occured to him to take offense. For my part, after looking the thread over and talking about it, I realized that where I went wrong was in my sarcastic and defensive response. He said, well it was understandable. I said, well, it was understandable that dash_slot might be unusually sensitive. And, he mentioned that it would have been better if I had waited until later in the thread to jump in.
I'm very sensitive to patronisation and condescension toward people that poses as "enlightened" concern. If you read what I write here, in this context, and elsewhere, you'll see that I don't presume to speak for other people in this context—and when I speak out about anything, I'm not doing so for their benefit. Long ago, however, I decided that in these sorts of matters, whether I or anyone else likes it or not, it does involve me. I'm part of a sexist, racist, homophobic society. As a white, straight, male, I'm even more than most complicit if I pretend that "it doesn't involve me". Racism, sexism, homophobia offend and hurt me by their nature. I don't know and don't claim to know what it's like to personally be the target of these things. But I'm very aware of their existence, and they bother me...a lot. I notice them. I've especially noticed in many places online a very virulent, shocking, casual antigay bigotry—my experience in the Yahoo! Financial boards was in mind when I wrote my comment. I don't think there's any doubt that MeFi is a much nicer place than many, and generally nicer than most. I assume that this means it's more comfortable for gays here, but if you read my comment, I didn't say that. I only commented on the atmosphere here, which I do have direct experience of, even if I'm not a target.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:02 PM on September 10, 2004
The scene opens on a city street corner at noon.
Well-Meaning White Guy: "Howdy! I'm just a white guy but I'm pretty much down with the people."
Minority Group: "How DARE you presume? Burn the self-important heretic!"
Truly Evil White Guy: [at home, sticking minority group's toothbrushes up his ass] "Hahahaha!"
curtain
posted by scarabic at 5:58 PM on September 10, 2004
Well-Meaning White Guy: "Howdy! I'm just a white guy but I'm pretty much down with the people."
Minority Group: "How DARE you presume? Burn the self-important heretic!"
Truly Evil White Guy: [at home, sticking minority group's toothbrushes up his ass] "Hahahaha!"
curtain
posted by scarabic at 5:58 PM on September 10, 2004
Toothbrushes up his ass?
He's a member of the oppressed ano-dental hygeine fetish community. I'm shocked at your lack of sensitivity, scarabic.
posted by jonmc at 8:58 PM on September 10, 2004
He's a member of the oppressed ano-dental hygeine fetish community. I'm shocked at your lack of sensitivity, scarabic.
posted by jonmc at 8:58 PM on September 10, 2004
Dang! Sorry. But hey, just because *I* don't have a toothbrush up my ass doesn't mean I wouldn't appreciate having one up yours.
posted by scarabic at 9:07 PM on September 10, 2004
posted by scarabic at 9:07 PM on September 10, 2004
I'm gay everywhere. Savoir Faire is everywhere. Coincidence?
posted by WolfDaddy at 4:10 AM on September 11, 2004
posted by WolfDaddy at 4:10 AM on September 11, 2004
NortonDC: Interesting question that seems to have created a tempest in a teapot which is a shame, in my opinion, as I saw it as a simple attempt of gathering information to facilitate understanding.
For what it's worth, on Metafilter, I will denote my orientation if it is relevant to the topic at hand. Otherwise, I perceive it to be a non-issue. With other forums, I have noted a reluctance to participate in the "Who's Gay?" threads or comment in a definitive manner when queried about whether or not I have a boyfriend/husband.
So, more comfy with the out factor at MeFi? Absolutely.
Side note: What is the deal with the EB pile-on? Seems like I can't read a thread blue or gray without this taking place.
posted by sillygit at 7:01 PM on September 11, 2004
For what it's worth, on Metafilter, I will denote my orientation if it is relevant to the topic at hand. Otherwise, I perceive it to be a non-issue. With other forums, I have noted a reluctance to participate in the "Who's Gay?" threads or comment in a definitive manner when queried about whether or not I have a boyfriend/husband.
So, more comfy with the out factor at MeFi? Absolutely.
Side note: What is the deal with the EB pile-on? Seems like I can't read a thread blue or gray without this taking place.
posted by sillygit at 7:01 PM on September 11, 2004
I'm gay everywhere. Savoir Faire is everywhere. Coincidence?
me too : >
Stop picking on EB, all of you--it's unworthy of the (mostly)enlightened and cool attitudes that prevail here. Wordy straight boys deserve the same respect us fags and dykes (and bi republicans) get.
Seanyboy made a crack before i went to the UK that i was "the only gay on Metafilter" (from a skit on british tv) and it warms my heart and soul that there are so many of us here. The rare occasions here (a la 111, etc), are just that, rare, and i hope, noticed and called out. I love it that every new gay thread on the front page seems to bring another quieter member "out" about something in their lives.
So, what would be a tipping point for the straight folks? 20 percent gay membership? 30? When would this really be seen as a "gay" place, in all senses of the word?
posted by amberglow at 7:46 AM on September 16, 2004
me too : >
Stop picking on EB, all of you--it's unworthy of the (mostly)enlightened and cool attitudes that prevail here. Wordy straight boys deserve the same respect us fags and dykes (and bi republicans) get.
Seanyboy made a crack before i went to the UK that i was "the only gay on Metafilter" (from a skit on british tv) and it warms my heart and soul that there are so many of us here. The rare occasions here (a la 111, etc), are just that, rare, and i hope, noticed and called out. I love it that every new gay thread on the front page seems to bring another quieter member "out" about something in their lives.
So, what would be a tipping point for the straight folks? 20 percent gay membership? 30? When would this really be seen as a "gay" place, in all senses of the word?
posted by amberglow at 7:46 AM on September 16, 2004
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
NortonDC, maybe you can lure them in with Maplethorpe photos.
posted by namespan at 1:35 AM on September 9, 2004