Are silly threads allowed now?

November 16, 2005 12:42 PM

Has there been a slight shift in policy?

The silly personality quiz and the infamous Mushroom post are both things I would have thought would have been flagged copiously and deleted, but they remain.
I am not having a hissy fit, and am perfectly willing to skip over or add to the stillness as I see fit.
This is just seeking some clarification as to if anything different is happening and can we expect more of the same.
posted by edgeways to etiquette/policy at 12:42 PM (46 comments total)

incidentally I did check and it seems evident Matt has been online and active a number of hours since the last one went up, so I don't think I'm jumping any guns with the question.

Is content or discussion more important, and what is the new criteria if there is one?
posted by edgeways at 12:43 PM on November 16, 2005

Seriously, wtf? "Flag it and move on" is no longer meaninfgul if Flagging It doesn't lead to a well-deserved deletion.
posted by rxrfrx at 12:53 PM on November 16, 2005

obligatory link to never-deleted, never-explained insane rant
posted by selfnoise at 12:55 PM on November 16, 2005

Here's how I see it: MetaFilter provides the "Best of the Web." Certainly, not all FPPed links qualify, but sometimes the resulting MeFi conversation derived from a mediocre linked site really is the best of the web. I know that's why I stick around, and I'm sure it's true for others. So basically, try not to be the person posting crappy sites, and don't make FPPs just to see what discussions will arise (that's what MeCha is for), but if something seems to be getting ridiculous, feel free to jump in and have fun. Just don't be a party-pooper for the rest of us.

And on preview, one person's well-deserved deletion may well be another's heavy-handed administrative railroading. If Matt doesn't want to delete a thread because he thinks it's funny, who are you to argue with him?
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:56 PM on November 16, 2005

Amen. Meanwhile this was deleted -- and while it may have been a self-link (evidence?), it had generated substantive discussion, as opposed to a bunch of idiots posting their results from some LiveJournal quiz. "Best of the web." Hmph.

If Matt doesn't want to delete a thread because he thinks it's funny, who are you to argue with him?

People who paid five bucks? Folks who feel like exercising the explicit reason MeTa exists? Seriously, do we have to have this argument every time a MeTa thread questions Matt's judgment, with some brown-nose leaping forward to shout, "If you don't like it, GO HOME!!" We choose to speak up because that's how problems get solved; and if you haven't seen Matt change his mind as a result of MeTa discussion, then you must be new. Sit down.
posted by cribcage at 1:04 PM on November 16, 2005

If Matt doesn't want to delete a thread because he thinks it's funny, who are you to argue with him?

I think there's a good lot of us who would like to call him a dummy if he thinks it's worthwhile to post "What X are you" type "quizzes" on his website.
posted by rxrfrx at 1:10 PM on November 16, 2005

I didn't see the silly quiz. I'll delete it. As for the book post, the writer is a NYT writer and the post was made from the NYT network, so he either did it himself or asked a coworker to do it.
posted by mathowie at 1:11 PM on November 16, 2005

Today was a sad day on Metafilter all around, goodbye.
posted by Mr T at 1:11 PM on November 16, 2005

I agree, it's confusing and disappointing. Worse, last night Matt linked to crunchland's excellent profile page with posting advice. Matt, if you agree with him, why are there more crap posts creeping by? Are people not flagging or are you not seeing or wha?

On preview...
posted by dobbs at 1:11 PM on November 16, 2005

Thanks Matt, I tried not to jump the gun, but may have.
posted by edgeways at 1:16 PM on November 16, 2005

you must be new. Sit down

Erm... we joined on the same day. Look, I'm not saying that Haughey is some omniscient, infallible Spaghetti Monster; of course he makes mistakes and errors in judgment. But the fact remains that he's the founder of the site and the primary moderator, and I think that gives him a certain measure of authority regarding MeFi's overall tone and direction. He trusted jessamyn and her judgment enough to give her moderation and deletion powers as well. Did he give these powers to me? No. To you? No. If we think things should be different, well, I see nothing wrong with asking nicely, instead of implying that Matt is changing his own policies without telling anybody.

On preview, I need to stop getting so worked up on MeTa. Matt, I love MetaFilter and I think you're providing a great public service and doing a terrific job running the place. If that makes me a brown-noser, so be it.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:18 PM on November 16, 2005

I agree, it's confusing and disappointing. Worse, last night Matt linked to crunchland's excellent profile page with posting advice. Matt, if you agree with him, why are there more crap posts creeping by? Are people not flagging or are you not seeing or wha?

I never get why people get soo worked up about crap posts. I mean, probably about 10% of the linked articles intrest me, so a 10% noise ratio of crap links only lowers my enjoyment of metafilter by 1 bias point.
posted by delmoi at 1:19 PM on November 16, 2005

He trusted jessamyn and her judgment enough to give her moderation and deletion powers as well. Did he give these powers to me? No. To you? No. If we think things should be different, well, I see nothing wrong with asking nicely, instead of implying that Matt is changing his own policies without telling anybody.

I agree. Metafilter could have ended up like Slashdot or kuro5hin, but it didn't. And that means matt is doing at least a possible job.

I'm hardly one to give deffrence to authority, but matt is doing a good job and I'm willing to bet mob rule would be worse. It's entirely possible that each individual person may be wrong in what they think is best for the site, but matt's rule has general worked out well, so evidence suggests that leaving decisions up to him is a good policy.

I don't think paying $5 alone gives you the right to second guess him.

But what do I know? I never paid for this account. (or if I did I forgot about it, it wasn't until the 14k'ers that people had to pay, right?)
posted by delmoi at 1:24 PM on November 16, 2005

delmoi : "matt is doing at least a possible job."

I assume this was just a spelling slip, but on the odd chance that you picked this phrase up aurally, instead of seeing it in print, it's "a passable job". (Note: any time I point out something grammatical, languagehat comes up and points out that I was wrong, and the original post right, so I'd wait at least 5 hours before considering my comment to be correct)
posted by Bugbread at 1:41 PM on November 16, 2005

it wasn't until the 14k'ers that people had to pay, right?

Nah, that came some time later. I'm a 16k'er, and my account was free, though I do recall having to lurk for quite awhile before I could get it. (There was that period where new signups were frozen, then they were unfrozen but limited somehow... I forget the exact mechanism.)
posted by scody at 1:42 PM on November 16, 2005

Never seek clarification.
posted by LarryC at 1:42 PM on November 16, 2005

Never seek clarification.

Why not, LarryC?
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:48 PM on November 16, 2005

I paid for an account on the first day they were available, and my number's 17648.
posted by selfnoise at 2:00 PM on November 16, 2005

Blargh. This is a total non-issue. There are a lot of rubbish posts that don't get the can and getting hung up over any individual post that *wasn't* deleted is pointless: we can all find examples of our own pet gripe. I, for one, am not interested in anti-quiz intellectualism. I bet that link got a higher click-through rate than any other post today. Find a negative *trend* occuring on the blue and you've got yourself a MeTa thread.
posted by nthdegx at 2:03 PM on November 16, 2005

he's the founder of the site and the primary moderator, and I think that gives him a certain measure of authority regarding MeFi's overall tone and direction.

Fantastic. Are there any other obvious truths that were never in dispute that you'd like to discuss?

If not, I'll say again: My understanding of MetaTalk is that it exists exactly so that users can raise issues of etiquette, policy, whether posts or comments should be deleted, and generally question the judgments of other members...including Matt.

If we think things should be different, well, I see nothing wrong with asking nicely...

Ah, but that isn't what you said, is it? Here, I'll refresh your memory:

If Matt doesn't want to delete a thread because he thinks it's funny, who are you to argue with him?

Yeah. Was there anything else?
posted by cribcage at 2:03 PM on November 16, 2005

if you haven't seen Matt change his mind as a result of MeTa discussion

Actually I'm not sure I ever have, oh wise one. He took down the SuicideGirls ad because of a popular revolt, but that was more of a "take action" in response to a MeTa thread, not so much of a "mind-change." And it's the only example I can think of. Probably Matt's one saving grace is that he generally sticks to his guns. MeTa threads are not, historically, effective ways to make him change his mind on anything.
posted by scarabic at 2:22 PM on November 16, 2005

I've seen him change his mind a few times. Not "Black becomes white" levels of change, but "I left it up because I thought it was iffy, but you guys are right, on second glance, the post should go" levels of change. 60% grey to 40% grey issues. No examples come to mind, because for the most part they were about 60% grey type issues, and his mind changed fast, so there was no forumpocalypse.
posted by Bugbread at 2:27 PM on November 16, 2005

Faint of Butt writes "Erm... we joined on the same day."

Erm, it's a joke. Someone implied quonsar was new here yesterday.

delmoi writes "Metafilter could have ended up like Slashdot or kuro5hin, but it didn't."

To be fair /. and K5 didn't go completely to shit until Rusty and Rob and the boys started making serious bank from the sites. Let's see how the next six months go. It's looking pretty good though as we seem to have weathered the $5 newbie storm much better than I expected.
posted by Mitheral at 2:31 PM on November 16, 2005

Quality is dipping on the blue, bullshit, personal vendettas and callouts rising on the grey.
posted by fire&wings at 2:33 PM on November 16, 2005

bugbread writes "No examples come to mind, because for the most part they were about 60% grey type issues, and his mind changed fast, so there was no forumpocalypse."

Not for a deletion but my metatalk post on excessive FPP length got a couple massive FPPs converted to [MI]
posted by Mitheral at 2:33 PM on November 16, 2005

I never get why people get soo worked up about crap posts.

I don't think I'm worked up. I just agree it should be pointed out that letting obviously crap posts like those mentioned in this MeTa post stick lower the standards for the future.

People said the same thing when the occasional newsfilter post slipped through. They were called whiners, then. Oops.
posted by dobbs at 2:34 PM on November 16, 2005

"Actually I'm not sure I ever have, oh wise one."
posted by cribcage at 2:37 PM on November 16, 2005

To be fair /. and K5 didn't go completely to shit until Rusty and Rob and the boys started making serious bank from the sites.

That's a fair point. It's one thing to run a tight ship when it's your hobby, but when it's your main source of income, you have to look at the bottom line. Just about anything not blatantly awful stays on metafilter now. But with over 28,000 members, something is always interesting to someone. The community is huge, and everyone think metafilter is something different. If matt chooses to X out a certain crowd, metafilter loses that group of people. So metafilter becomes a huge machine with a little something for everyone, with only a few longing for the good old days leaving.

With new publicity and more members, it's only going to get worse I fear.
posted by justgary at 2:41 PM on November 16, 2005

I assume this was just a spelling slip, but on the odd chance that you picked this phrase up aurally, instead of seeing it in print, it's "a passable job". (Note: any time I point out something grammatical, languagehat comes up and points out that I was wrong, and the original post right, so I'd wait at least 5 hours before considering my comment to be correct)

You're wrong! Actually, you're probably right, but I didn't want to disappoint you. There is, however, the chance that delmoi meant "a possible job." I'm not altogether sure the job is possible, but mathowie does seem to be doing it. I know I couldn't.
posted by languagehat at 2:54 PM on November 16, 2005

Faint of Butt: Because we rarely get clarification!

We are a right-brained bunch around here and like our site rules hard and fast. Hence the most common genres of MeTa post: "What is the rule regarding X?" The rule seems to be that Matt follows his instincts. If people hammer him hard enough afterwards he will come up with an explanation of why. But he goes right on following his instincts.
posted by LarryC at 2:54 PM on November 16, 2005

People have been saying the sky is falling on Metafilter since at least 2001. I have long ceased to be too concerned about it.
posted by konolia at 2:55 PM on November 16, 2005

Same thing happened on Usenet and then the September that Never Ended happened and the sky really did fall.
posted by Mitheral at 3:00 PM on November 16, 2005

In your example, cribcage, Matt's decision seems to have been based on people's behavior in that AskMe thread. The MeTa post was more a notification mechanism than a persuasion device. I don't see any mind-changing going on there.
posted by scarabic at 3:03 PM on November 16, 2005

There's a link on MeFi that is a goddamned picture of a portabello mushroom? And it's still up?


*head explodes*
posted by xmutex at 3:16 PM on November 16, 2005

Oh, I see. It's become one of those threads.
posted by xmutex at 3:21 PM on November 16, 2005

scarabic: You're mistaken, but that's understandable because the relevant information has been removed: that anonymous question originally identified a specific person, first and last name, along with a specific address.

Bugbread had already answered, and I usually avoid digging through archives to press small points; but since that particular link (obviously) was easy to find, I felt like snarking back. ;-)
posted by cribcage at 3:23 PM on November 16, 2005

If not, I'll say again: My understanding of MetaTalk is that it exists exactly so that users can raise issues of etiquette, policy, whether posts or comments should be deleted, and generally question the judgments of other members...including Matt.


Yeah, but there's a cost in every MeTa callout. Other then something like this or outing a self-linker you're going to find a ton people who A) Disagree with you or B) disagree that it's worth a callout. Unless you think it's a really pressing issue, you shouldn't post.

Just flag it and forget it. I wish more people would do that.

Actually, you're probably right, but I didn't want to disappoint you. There is, however, the chance that delmoi meant "a possible job." I'm not altogether sure the job is possible, but mathowie does seem to be doing it. I know I couldn't.

Whoa, you guys were talking about me!? I read bugbread's comment and thought "Ha! what kind of idiot would write possible for passable?" Yes, it was a spelling error that was amplified by my spell checker, rather then corrected. I should probably do a bit more proof reading. My monitor is screwed up right now, and it's hard to see what I'm typing.

what's even odder is that you actually pasted in my name, so I should have noticed it, but didn't.
posted by delmoi at 4:07 PM on November 16, 2005

Yeah, I got that. I think we're splitting hairs at this point but anyway I accept your basic point that MeTa is the appropriate place for questioning a choice Matt has made.

I just think you were exaggerating about how often threads here cause Matt to change his style/policy/opinion. I'll maintain that frequency is in fact quite low (and that's not a bad thing).

I didn't mean to snark. Just pointing out that you were making a sweeping statement in a rather haughty way which I dont think is necessarily true. But nevermind that.
posted by scarabic at 4:11 PM on November 16, 2005

Cripes. He said that he hadn't seen it, and then he deleted it.

In that lame thread, matildaben said, " Clicked flag a couple hours ago; no response yet; Matt must be sleeping in". At 8:17 am. So I looked up his profile, and discovered that he lives in Portland, the Pacific Time Zone. I also understand that he has a new baby.

Those members who believe that the admins sit glued to their key-boards 24/7, reading every single post to protect their sensitive eyes from the slightest transgression seriously need to get a grip.
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 4:40 PM on November 16, 2005

Sometimes the best of the web is someone going crazy over a silly little FPP on Metafilter. It's not the FPP that's the best, but the ensuing madness.... space madness...
posted by blue_beetle at 5:45 PM on November 16, 2005

Quality is dipping on the blue, bullshit, personal vendettas and callouts rising on the grey.

It's like 2001 all over again!

Or like comment 261879
posted by mrgrimm at 5:53 PM on November 16, 2005

i can't believe people are freaking out over this! the mushroom thread was a lovely piece of frolic and serendipity...the confluence of factors that made it so much fun could not be repeated if one tried! people laughed and had a good time...the lions lay down with the lambs...regular snarkers were sweet, and regular sweeites were saints...

...this isn't some cold online journal subject to strict rules and high formality...if you want that, go have a conversation with a search engine...this is a community of people trading perspectives--our humanity and humor included....
posted by troybob at 8:29 PM on November 16, 2005

Those members who believe that the admins sit glued to their key-boards 24/7, reading every single post to protect their sensitive eyes from the slightest transgression seriously need to get a grip.

hear hear!

Sometimes the best of the web is someone going crazy over a silly little FPP on Metafilter.

hear hear!
posted by shmegegge at 10:32 PM on November 16, 2005

... a well-deserved deletion.

So, if any of us ever flag anything, it deserves to be deleted?

RFPony: What might be helpful is to post a score for the article. Not for comments -- just for the FPPs. It could start by just listing the flags that have been applied. Maybe then show the number of times applied. Small type would be fine. That would take away the excuse to complain address some of hte concerns about inconsistency amongst posters.

... because, I have a suspition that when things like the "silly personality quiz" (which I found a welcome respite after the dhoyt thread, fwiw) got some positive flags....
posted by lodurr at 4:42 AM on November 17, 2005

faint of butt: Look, I'm not saying that Haughey is some omniscient, infallible Spaghetti Monster; of course he makes mistakes and errors in judgment. But the fact remains that he's the founder of the site and the primary moderator, and I think that gives him a certain measure of authority regarding MeFi's overall tone and direction.

I look on it as a bar. Matt owns the bar. Like any bar owner, he has to tread a line between pleasing the patrons and doing what he wants with his own place.

We don't like it, we don't have to drink here. (For the $5 Bob!bies, the applicable analogy is paying for the booze...) This being Teh Intarnet, we expect to be able to voice our opinions about Matt, and many of us do. (Though, having crossed the line in the past with another bit-site-owner, I try now not to get personal about it.) (Never crossed a bar-owner, though. I know where my drinks come from.)
posted by lodurr at 4:49 AM on November 17, 2005

Metatalk: I am not having a hissy fit

(Really I'm not, really! And it's about something of vital importance, I swear!)

And lodurr, I prefer to buy bottles and drink at home. Then only my "SO" can put cyanide in my Boone's Farm.
posted by davy at 6:36 AM on November 17, 2005