To Assume is to make an ass out of u and me

March 15, 2006 8:08 PM

What is wrong with people who make their own determination of the gender of a person mentioned in an AskMe question even though that person's gender is clearly stated?

This seems to happen a lot with short and mostly useless hit and run answers. I guess people don't read the more inside, or just skim the question. Is this "male answer syndrome" at work? Why do some people answer the question they wish had been written, regardless of the actual question?

As seen today here, by majick and here, by DakotaPaul
posted by crabintheocean to Etiquette/Policy at 8:08 PM (47 comments total)

DakotaPaul even seems to have read a previous response that referred to the harasser as "she", but ignored the subtle clues it was sending him.
posted by crabintheocean at 8:11 PM on March 15, 2006

Yes, DakotaPauline is clearly not paying attention.
posted by matthewr at 8:14 PM on March 15, 2006

Why do you hate men?

or

Maybe majick's a poor typist?

or

Maybe DakotaPaul was confused by the oddly edited question? Because ChasPaul's answer is odd. Most people don't advocate beating the shiz out of a woman.

or

Are those the only two example you have or just the recent ones?
posted by ?! at 8:19 PM on March 15, 2006

This happens at least a couple of times a week. I don't particularly care to search for more examples.
posted by crabintheocean at 8:23 PM on March 15, 2006

Someone's getting nominated for Worst Supporting Callout.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 8:27 PM on March 15, 2006

Why, damn it, why? What's wrong with people? *sobs into hankie*

There is no why. People are people.

(I'm feeling gnomic today.)
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:34 PM on March 15, 2006

I've noticed this, pretty regularly. It's only one symptom of the real problem -- answerers not actually reading the question. I've asked questions where I take great pains to specify the situation, and people just shoot from the hip anyway. They might as well not answer, in most cases.

That said, I don't think calling attention to it here is going to accomplish anything.
posted by knave at 8:52 PM on March 15, 2006

I'm a poor typist. I'm usually better about genders, but, hey, typos occasioanasnlly
posted by majick at 9:02 PM on March 15, 2006

Careless reading. We've all done it, it's embarrassing, try to stop, did this really need a MeTa thread, etc.
posted by mediareport at 9:19 PM on March 15, 2006

Can we just start using he as a gender-neutral pronoun again? Please? We all signed off on "guys" being gender-neutral, right? It's not sexism, I just can't take "they" being singular anymore.
posted by danb at 9:24 PM on March 15, 2006

did this really need a MeTa thread

Maybe, but it didn't need a self-righteous and melodramatic one..
posted by Chuckles at 9:25 PM on March 15, 2006

I think it's legitimate, although the supporting comments are not so hot. How's this: I've been referred to as he. That bugged me because it was an obvious case of someone just assuming that all Mefites are male. If you don't get it, check my name. I also remember a link on the blue about a teenaged girl (her name was quite feminine) who started a pro-animal testing protest, and in the discussion someone referred to her as he. It's just people not paying attention and assuming that everyone is male.

And no, we can't go back to using "he" as gender neutral. How about we start using "she" as gender neutral? But that would just be weird, right? I mean, not all of us are women and it would be derogatory to call a man "she."
posted by arcticwoman at 9:34 PM on March 15, 2006

Like we can believe what anyone says on the internet. If so, then I'm a 7 year old girl.
posted by blue_beetle at 10:03 PM on March 15, 2006

Big freaking deal.
Chalk it up to inattention and move on.
While it is indicative of a larger issue, a gender mix-up is probably the most innocuous result of someone commenting without paying full attention to what's being discussed, or proofreading their comment before posting it. Almost everyone's done it at least once, and there ain't a whole lot that can be done to prevent it from happening again.

My real name is somewhat hermaphroditic, which leads to people some misunderstandings, both on the internet and in real life. I don't find it derogatory or embarassing. If you get all worked up about it, I suggest you stop acting like a little girl.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:20 PM on March 15, 2006

See? I didn't proofread that comment.
And I'll probably not do it again!!!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:22 PM on March 15, 2006

Everyone knows there are no girls on teh intarweb, just boys pretending to be girls.
posted by rhapsodie at 10:29 PM on March 15, 2006

Can somebody bust out one of the urls that tediously explain how english needs a 3rd person gender neutral pronoun?
posted by boo_radley at 10:59 PM on March 15, 2006

arcticwoman, I remember the protest girl you mention, and I have to say that the name was totally masculine to me. On search: Laurie. I can see how it's feminine, but I came across it as a guy first so it sounds more like a guy to me. I don't think there's anything special about that example - still just people not paying attention.
posted by jacalata at 3:00 AM on March 16, 2006

I have a bigger problem with answers completely ignoring a section of the question. Ie: this question asking how to modify a work PC so that it annoys co-workers using it. The questioner specifically already mentions switching to Dvorak keyboard layout, yet kindall suggests the very same thing 6 minutes later. It's not like it was hidden within some huge paragraph, it was a pretty clear bullet point! And it happens all the time. That offends me much more than someone mistaking a he for a she (or vice versa, which I've also seen).
posted by antifuse at 4:19 AM on March 16, 2006

i'm just offended period.
posted by quonsar at 4:23 AM on March 16, 2006

I've been referred to as "he" numerous times here. I wonder why.
posted by leftcoastbob at 6:02 AM on March 16, 2006

Do you leave the seat up?
posted by NinjaPirate at 6:05 AM on March 16, 2006

how english needs a 3rd person gender neutral pronoun?

There is one, although the other day I ran into someone and they didn't like it, so I punched them in the face.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:15 AM on March 16, 2006

C'mon. No self-respecting lady would call themselves "leftcoast".
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:16 AM on March 16, 2006

I just can't take "they" being singular anymore.

It's been around for a long time. It's not a new feminist thing — heck, Jane Austen used it as a singular 3rd person pronoun too. You can take "you" being singular just fine without crying a river about "thou" being lost. English changes, it's okay.
posted by heatherann at 6:29 AM on March 16, 2006

The gender assumption bothered me in this recent thread, especially because the poster took such pains not to specify.

It's easy to chalk it up to just careless reading, and some large percentage of the time, that's probably all it is. But there is an ingrained bias that's quite real. Many people are projecting their own 'default' gender on individuals whose gender is so far ambiguous, and the default is most often 'male.' The ingrained assumption that male is standard, and female must be specified, is one of the subtlest and hardest-to-eradicate forms of sexism. It's also a prevalent concern in studies of racial bias as well; white people tend to assume an individual's whiteness when presented with ambiguous data, and change that assumption only when presented with specific information to the contrary.

I say this not in an attempt to lay blame. It's a residual of milennia of entrenched sexism to assume maleness; it doesn't have much to do with the internet, except that gender identity is naturally more ambiguous here due to lack of reliable visual cues. I just want to support the argument that there's more going on than just sloppy reading. If we weren't beginning the reading with some prior assumptions in place, we wouldn't arrive at the same default option so often.
posted by Miko at 6:44 AM on March 16, 2006

I think that crabintheocean's original point, which is also supported by antifuse's comment, isn't immaterial at all. Whatever with the inherent institutionalized sexism--I'm not sure it's even worth trying to "enlighten" the guilty menfolk around here--the whole "male answer syndrome" (for lack of a less sexist term, lest the smartasses decide to decry it) thing is really, really, really annoying.

People don't read the question thoroughly before answering.

People don't read other people's responses before answering.

I've noticed a discouraging trend, promulgated by a select few mefites, of "first post" champing at the bit, where they don't even offer any helpful advice at all. In fact, they often qualify their reply with "Well, I have no personal experience with this, but..." Why are you bothering? Why?

Yes, these are picayune annoyances and are easy to ignore. But AskMe is "as helpful as you make it." And this is the opposite of helpful.
posted by veronica sawyer at 7:32 AM on March 16, 2006

Now, if crabintheocean gave a name other than "A.C." and/or indicated a gender in his profile, he wouldn't have to undergo the annoyance of being referred to as "he." I kid, of course, and I take the point about sloppy reading (though it wasn't worth a callout), but a lot of people do hide their gender, and unfair as it is, sexism is deeply ingrained in us and we do tend to assume "male" unless otherwise indicated, so I imagine a fair number of the fair sex get referred to as "he" around here. Such is life. Until we all get used to "they." Speaking of which, thanks for saving me the trouble, heatherann.
posted by languagehat at 7:43 AM on March 16, 2006

What heatherann said. That guy is spot on.
posted by cortex at 7:44 AM on March 16, 2006

It's possible that some of the gender-bending comments are written by people whose native language has no gender pronouns. For those people, he and she are a big speed bump in spoken conversation, and a lot of the time, they just assign one or the other at random. It wouldn't surprise me if they did the same when writing. The odds of guessing right aren't that bad, after all.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 8:24 AM on March 16, 2006

It's possible that some of the gender-bending comments are written by people whose native language has no gender pronouns.

I'm not sure if I should treat that as a serious comment, but if it is, can you link to some information about languages that have no gender pronouns? I'm not aware of any language that makes no distinction between males and females.

There are languages (like English) in which nouns aren't gendered, but I've never heard of one in which the only pronoun would be equivalent to "human."
posted by Miko at 8:48 AM on March 16, 2006

This happens at least a couple of times a week. I don't particularly care to search for more examples.

If this is the case, next time don't particularly care to post the goddamn MeTa.

(This is weak.)
posted by rollbiz at 9:09 AM on March 16, 2006

arcticwoman writes "How's this: I've been referred to as he. That bugged me because it was an obvious case of someone just assuming that all Mefites are male. If you don't get it, check my name."

Many (most?) handles aren't self descriptive. No one thinks stavros is a chicken. Your handle could also refer to some one who like arctic women, a song with the lyric arctic woman, or some other random reference to pop culture, history, literature or whatever. Expecting someone to figure out gender from a handle is unrealistic.
posted by Mitheral at 9:47 AM on March 16, 2006

C'mon. No self-respecting lady would call themselves "leftcoast".
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane

Good point, but we're talking gender, of which mine is not "male;" not status, of which mine is not "lady."

Leave the seat up? Hell, I don't even put the seat up.
posted by leftcoastbob at 10:16 AM on March 16, 2006

Miko: Gender-neutral pronoun.

In American Sign Language, all pronouns are gender-neutral.

In modern Chinese, there is no gender distinction in pronouns in the spoken language

Like other Finno-Ugric languages, Finnish pronouns make no distinction between male and female. The Finnish third-person singular personal pronoun (he/she) is hän.

Since Hungarian does not have any grammatical gender, all personal pronouns (the third person singular being ő, which stands for both the English he and she, as well as it) are gender-neutral.

Tagalog has no gender distinction in grammar, so the third person pronoun siya can mean either he or she

And so on. It's not all that common, but it's not all that rare either.
posted by languagehat at 10:18 AM on March 16, 2006

Expecting someone to figure out gender from a handle is unrealistic.

Well, for handles that give no suggestion, sure. Your point that many (yes, I think most) handles are abstract is fair, but that doesn't mean a person can't look and guess.

("arcticwoman" isn't necessarily a woman, but there's better reason to think she is than, say, "languagehat" or "cortex" or "leftcoastbob". By the same token, "leftcoastbob" is more male-ish, given the bob in the string. Though, yes, bob could be a reference to flotation, or bobcats, or nickname for someone named Roberta, or an homage to a female-user's friend/idol/enemy Bob, and so on. But one can at least make a guess, where the context suggests it.)
posted by cortex at 10:24 AM on March 16, 2006

I'd say the fact that spoken Mandarin (and that is what I was thinking of) has no gender pronouns makes it more than somewhat common. Unless you're saying not that many languages have the quality. I wouldn't argue with that, because I'd be talking through my hat.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:54 AM on March 16, 2006

Thank you; I'm schooled. (Though of course, speakers of ASL still write in standard English). I still think it's a stretch to say that it's Finns, Hungarians, and Mandarin and Tagalog speakers who are making all the gender assumptions, though.
posted by Miko at 11:14 AM on March 16, 2006

Why is this a problem? I'm being serious. In many cases, it is a result of the answerer not reading closely enough (or making assumptions from a username), and can be dismissed as merely annoying. Hell, I get called "Jen" all the time, especially on IRC; it irritates me, but it's a conclusion that is easily jumped to considering the username I have chosen. You know, majick's HORRIBLE AFFRONT is probably a typo. I really don't understand why this warrants such a backlash, and I don't see what "male answer syndrome" has to do with it.
posted by jenovus at 11:44 AM on March 16, 2006

this amused me.
posted by modofo at 1:03 PM on March 16, 2006

I still think it's a stretch to say that it's Finns, Hungarians, and Mandarin and Tagalog speakers who are making all the gender assumptions, though.

Why yes, that would be a stretch. Good thing for me that I wrote "It's possible that some of the gender-bending comments are written by people whose native language has no gender pronouns." I don't stretch as far as I used to.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 1:10 PM on March 16, 2006

Unless you're saying not that many languages have the quality.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. One language, one vote in the LH Republic.

Though of course, speakers of ASL still write in standard English

But it's not their primary language. Lots of Chinese-speakers write in standard English, too.
posted by languagehat at 1:26 PM on March 16, 2006

And even when writing, those pronouns (not to mention articles) are a challenge for them.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 1:57 PM on March 16, 2006

Yes; I've taught deaf kids, I know. I'm just saying that the language argument is a bit of a red herring. I doubt it has anything much to do with the gender bias.
posted by Miko at 2:05 PM on March 16, 2006

I'm sure you're right.
posted by languagehat at 3:32 PM on March 16, 2006

Leave the seat up? Hell, I don't even put the seat up.

Ha. touché, dear sir.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:11 PM on March 16, 2006

"Though of course, speakers of ASL still write in standard English..."

I'm puzzled by the "of course". It's highly likely that a native signer of ASL would know English, but there's no reason they must.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:10 PM on March 18, 2006