Join 3,433 readers in helping fund MetaFilter (Hide)

NWY -> STP (nc)
November 17, 2008 6:56 AM   Subscribe

I sense MeFi has a few hardcore Diplomacy players. Any interest in starting a game?

Perusing this hijacked thread about Risk Diplomacy, I see we have a number of Diplomacy advocates. If we can gather seven members together for a play-by-email or PHP game, then the fun cannot be halted.

Anyone interested in playing, or even learning? I'll set something up if there is enough interest.
posted by spamguy to MetaFilter Gatherings at 6:56 AM (423 comments total) 14 users marked this as a favorite

Every thread about RISK is just a thread about Diplomacy waiting to happen. And yes.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:57 AM on November 17, 2008 [4 favorites]


I am not yet a hardcore Diplomacy player but I wish to be so.

Your back. Let me stab it.
posted by Wolfdog at 7:06 AM on November 17, 2008


I'm more of a risk junkie, but i'm open to playing some Diplomacy. Keep me posted.
posted by schyler523 at 7:11 AM on November 17, 2008


I think I've only ever played once or twice, but I'd love to play (maybe as part of a team with a more experienced player, if that is possible?).
posted by Rock Steady at 7:16 AM on November 17, 2008


That looks like a lot of fun, but I should read more of the rules before committing. If you need some easy pickings to round out the group, count me in.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:17 AM on November 17, 2008


I sense some excellent MetaMeFi flamewars upcoming.
posted by DU at 7:29 AM on November 17, 2008 [1 favorite]


You know who else was a hardcore Diplomacy player?

Henry Kissinger.
posted by Plutor at 7:38 AM on November 17, 2008 [1 favorite]


I'm in. My next DPJudge game is stalled waiting for more players to join.
posted by cmonkey at 7:39 AM on November 17, 2008


I am so in! But I haven't played since that last game in college when someone tried to staple my hand to the table. So I'm a bit rusty- I love the idea of teaming up with more experienced players, if everyone's up for that.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 7:42 AM on November 17, 2008


I would like to note my interest, but sadly too busy to join a game right now. Keep me in mind in future though.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:42 AM on November 17, 2008


I would be pleased to enter firm, unshakable alliances with any and all inexperienced new players.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:49 AM on November 17, 2008 [16 favorites]


...someone tried to staple my hand to the table. So I'm a bit rusty...

Indeed.
posted by DU at 7:53 AM on November 17, 2008 [3 favorites]


A bit off topic, but to this day I still have a peculiar tattoo on the side of my right hand where a kid named "Rusty" stabbed me with a pencil in second grade.
posted by Wolfdog at 7:54 AM on November 17, 2008


cortex: "I would be pleased to enter firm, unshakable alliances with any and all inexperienced new players."

Cortex is lying to you. The only person you can trust is me, your friend, Italy. Really. I'll even give you Tyrolia. Go ahead. Take it.
posted by Plutor at 7:58 AM on November 17, 2008


Oh! Two more hours, you fool, two more hours and it would have been 48 hours without a MeTa post!
posted by evilcolonel at 8:00 AM on November 17, 2008


I have an upside down tooth imprint (it looks kind of like the Unreal symbol) on the pointer finger of my left hand from where I threw my hand over my shoulder during a basketball game in seventh grade and hit a guy name "Stephen" in the tooth.
posted by ND¢ at 8:00 AM on November 17, 2008


Interested.
posted by arimathea at 8:02 AM on November 17, 2008


Oh! Two more hours, you fool, two more hours and it would have been 48 hours without a MeTa post!

Technically this isn't so much a metatalk post as it is a killing floor.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:08 AM on November 17, 2008 [2 favorites]


Glad to see such a response. We may even end up with enough people for multiple games.

AFAIK it's not directly possible to pair people up as one country, though it'd be a great idea. One can always submit orders via a throwaway Gmail address mutually checked by two players, I suppose.

Here's what might work if we get enough people: we have two games, one for the diehards and one for those looking to have fun and learn. The former would have stricter press(1), probably gunboat(2), and shorter deadlines; the latter would have lax deadlines and press options.

In such a case, MeFites might be sieved as follows. Feel free to suggest alternatives.
Normal: cortex, cmonkey, arimathea, Plutor
Easy: Wolfdog, schyler523, Rock Steady, Alvy Ampersand, Dormant Gorilla

(1) press = communication between players
(2) gunboat = game option in which players are anonymous until conclusion
posted by spamguy at 8:10 AM on November 17, 2008


The great thing about Diplomacy is that many times the game is won by the newbie. The experienced players are too busy attacking each other, sometimes trying to settle old grudges and meanwhile setting aside the new guy as a 'minor threat.' that nobody notices them slowly acquiring land....until its too late.
posted by vacapinta at 8:14 AM on November 17, 2008


This sounds like something up my alley. Keep me posted as well.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 8:15 AM on November 17, 2008


Ahhh, Dipsy. A housemate & I tried once to set up a game among the Math Department in our undergrad.

Protip: Playing this game with people who give you grades/jobs/recommendation letters is a seriously bad idea.

I'd love to play, probably in the easy camp (I've played like 3 games of it ever).
posted by Lemurrhea at 8:26 AM on November 17, 2008


dammit, I don't have time to backstab all of you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:27 AM on November 17, 2008


spamguy, are you suggesting anonymous in the "honor system no telling but press is okay" sense or in the blind No Damn Press sense?
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:30 AM on November 17, 2008


I'm in. I don't hate enough people around here yet.
posted by scabrous at 8:33 AM on November 17, 2008


We once had an office game in my last place of employment. Until someone refused to go to another participants meeting because they belonged to the wrong alliance.
posted by wavering at 8:37 AM on November 17, 2008


I'm suggesting anonymous, no-telling, 'Hello, I'm Archduke Ferdinand, no, really'-style press. Unless No Damn Press is preferable.

With scabrous and Lemurrhea, I believe we have an easy map ready to go. Further games can be created to accommodate any other people. I'll set stuff up and send out mailings after work.

Anyone have preferences for PHP vs. play-by-email?
posted by spamguy at 8:50 AM on November 17, 2008


I had a 3 month experience of playing Diplomacy regularly with a group of friends that ended with us not wanting to play games of any sort with each other ever again. There's something about being lied to with a straight face, over and over again, by people you are supposed to be friends with.
posted by empath at 8:53 AM on November 17, 2008


I would like to play.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:53 AM on November 17, 2008


On reconsideration, play-by-email is probably best. The USDP judge provides pretty much all the UI one needs.

Also, to those who want to sign up: please state what level of game you would like to join, so I don't accidentally throw you in with a barrel of ravenous badgers.
posted by spamguy at 8:58 AM on November 17, 2008


Ooh, I'll sign up for the easy division if there's still room. (Never played before, but I've been meaning to try it for a while...) I'd vote PHP.
posted by equalpants at 9:00 AM on November 17, 2008


I like the idea of two-tiered games. Might be easier than coordinating two people as one country. Not least because in the heat of the moment I would probably try to find a way to screw over even the person who was on my team.

I wonder if you can play Illuminati over email...
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 9:23 AM on November 17, 2008


I'm in if there are still slots open, probably in the Normal game, although I'll probably get crushed.

I haven't played in over twenty years and the last game I played ended up shouting, crying and almost a fist fight. Much beer and tequila had to be administered before friendships were patched.
posted by octothorpe at 9:26 AM on November 17, 2008


Oh, and count me in on the Easy team.
Depending on how long this goes on for, I'd love to play easy for a while till I get back into the swing, and then join the Normal game, if that's ok with y'all.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 9:26 AM on November 17, 2008


I'll try the easy team, but will go for normal if there is no room
posted by KokuRyu at 9:29 AM on November 17, 2008


Anyone have preferences for PHP vs. play-by-email?

PBEM is perfect with the USDP judge. Fancy maps and a non-intrusive e-mail based order system.
posted by cmonkey at 9:29 AM on November 17, 2008


Back in the day, I spent about ten years averaging a Dip game a week (or more). Face to face games, email games, however I could find them. Back then there were only four or five "judges" running the email games, so I set up another: USNM, "the New Mexico judge". That judge grew to the point where it accounted for a flood of email equal to the rest of NMT's email traffic combined.

Anyway, in 1997 I packed up my bags and prepared to leave Socorro for my current home of Athens, GA. Two days before I drove away, I spent one last night drinking with friends at a local watering hole. At one in the morning, a fellow I hadn't seen in a couple years came into the bar. He was a semi-regular Dip player before he dropped out of my circle. He comes up to me and tells me he'd actually still been in the area teaching, but we'd just not crossed paths in a while. He asked if I still played Dip (I was), and proceeded to tell me about this group of his students he'd been playing with. For the last year or so, he told me, he'd been teaching them, playing game after game, developing their skills. Finally, he said, he felt they were finally ready to play me. When could I sit down for a game with them, he asked. Now, I'm not the best player (I could hold my own and win often enough), and I was a bit tipsy, but I think I just stared and blinked at him. I explained I was leaving in two days, and tomorrow was full of last-second errands, and there was just no way. He seemed really let down about the whole thing.

I never did find out the whole story, but I'm sure he was just pulling my leg. Gave me a great going-away memory, though. And sadly, I haven't played a face to face game since then, and only a handful of email games. I do miss the time when I could just call out, "anyone up for a quick game of Diplomacy?" and have no trouble filling a table.

I guess all of this was just to say yeah, I'm in.
posted by ewagoner at 9:29 AM on November 17, 2008 [1 favorite]


I haven't played in a few years, but used to get in a game every once in a while on the dpjudge. I would be down for a game, absolutely. I'd be down for any game at all, except I'm a law student and finals start in around 3 weeks. Something with a somewhat longer deadline might be better for me, therefore. What sort of deadline are you looking at for the "pro" game?
posted by Inkoate at 9:32 AM on November 17, 2008


I wonder if you can play Illuminati over email...

For what it's worth, a game that requires dice-rolling and actively encourages
ne'er-do-welling and low-level cheating would be a hilarious, but bad, game
over email.

Running it server-side could work, though.
Dunno.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:35 AM on November 17, 2008


I'm in for as ravenous as it gets.
posted by scabrous at 9:37 AM on November 17, 2008


A(Con) – Bul
A(Smy) – Arm
F(Ank) – Bla

Better drink your vodka fast, fucker.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:37 AM on November 17, 2008


Phew, I'm gonna have to keep track of this on paper.

Also, what's Illuminati?

For the record, my fave variant remains Goofy. I played in a round once; a shiny nickel to the person who can identify which power I played as.
posted by spamguy at 9:45 AM on November 17, 2008


Illuminati
posted by empath at 9:50 AM on November 17, 2008


Sign me up for the easy game, too.
posted by empath at 9:51 AM on November 17, 2008


Illuminati.

You just absolutely couldn't play it over email considering it would be nothing but a SOLID WALL OF LIES, but it would almost be worth it for the hilarity.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 9:53 AM on November 17, 2008


I once played an online RPG of some sort where each player took on the role of a country in pre-WWI Europe. It was hella fun, with each player doing research into their own country to use their findings to fuel their arguments.

I've often wanted to do something similar, but want there to be more of a rules mechanic skeleton to hang the game off of rather than grandiose pronouncements and online research. I had looked at using the OGL to try and make something, but it became overly complex over time. Maybe GURPS?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:07 AM on November 17, 2008


Ooh. I don't play myself, but I could forward this link to my brother, in case he is interested. I'd love to learn to play at one point, though, so keep me in mind for a future easy game.
posted by tickingclock at 10:16 AM on November 17, 2008


robocop is bleeding, what is it with you and reminding me of games for which I am nostalgic? My wife wants you to quit it.
posted by Plutor at 10:31 AM on November 17, 2008


Like KokoRyu, I'd be interested in an easy game but will take the normal/difficult one if there's no more room. Either Web- or email- based is fine with me.
posted by xbonesgt at 10:56 AM on November 17, 2008


For what it's worth, my capacity for shit-talking and doomsaying exceeds my strategic facilities by a long shot. I'm comfortable being in the normal game, but pretty much no one else in that game will likely be uncomfortable with me being there by the time I get snuffed by Italy in 1903.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:00 AM on November 17, 2008


Diplomacy is actually a really easy game to learn how to play. It's no more complicated than Monopoly or Risk or Clue.
posted by empath at 11:02 AM on November 17, 2008


If the Easy game is also the noob game, sign me up. Never played but am always interested in new games.
posted by jeversol at 11:26 AM on November 17, 2008


robocop is bleeding, what is it with you and reminding me of games for which I am nostalgic? My wife wants you to quit it.

Duck Hunt.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:28 AM on November 17, 2008


This is the structure I've outlined. We will have either three or four (!) games running. If I left out your name, or placed you in the wrong list, tell me!

Normal: 36 hr deadlines, anonymous partial press
  1. cortex
  2. cmonkey
  3. arimathea
  4. Plutor
  5. scabruous
  6. octothorpe
  7. ewagoner
Easy 1: 72 hr deadlines, normal (email-signed) partial press
  1. Wolfdog
  2. schyler523
  3. Rock Steady
  4. Alvy Ampersand
  5. Dormant Gorilla
  6. Mastercheddar
  7. Lemurrhea
Easy 2: 72 hr deadlines, normal (email-signed) partial press
  1. KokuRyu
  2. equalpants
  3. empath
  4. xbonesgt
  5. jeversol
  6. [robocop is bleeding?]
  7. [Inkoate?]
robocop is bleeding: Unless a surge in demand calls for a second normal game (and none of normals #1-7 withdraw), I can't fit you in. Would you feel out of place in an easy game?

Inkoate: There's room for you in Easy 2. Keep in mind that Diplomacy games can stretch on forever and a half. Even in a normal game we may run into your finals schedule (unless you get bumped off early). You're welcome to play, but if you foresee conflicts, it would be polite to find a replacement.

Woo, my longest MeFi post evar!
posted by spamguy at 11:40 AM on November 17, 2008


What is partial press? I've never played an email game before.
posted by empath at 11:50 AM on November 17, 2008


Can I still get in on an easy game?
posted by adamdschneider at 11:55 AM on November 17, 2008


I'll explain it all when I send out messages and stuff, but basically there are many flavours of talking between players. Partial press means players can communicate privately; X can send a message to A,B,C, or just A, or everyone in the game (called broadcasting). Its opposite (impartial? dunno what it's called) means that whatever you want to say, you have to broadcast.

There are all sorts of kooky things PBEM allows, like being able to forge press authorship (X sends a message to Y under the guise of Z).

Again, I'll outline it all when I set it up.
posted by spamguy at 11:58 AM on November 17, 2008


On revision: the MeFi games won't allow said kooky things, just saying it's a flexible system.

adamdschneider: We'll see what other people show interest or drop out of current games.
posted by spamguy at 12:01 PM on November 17, 2008


spamguy: I'm in. Even during finals I'll want a break at least every 3 days to spend a little while on press/moves.
posted by Inkoate at 12:08 PM on November 17, 2008


In college, I took a History course that was Europe, pre-WWI. As part of the once/week, three hour class, we took 30 minutes at the end of each class playing Diplomacy. It was hugely fun - partly because my team (England) won. But also because I'm a big fan of games. I have tried on and off for many years to get others to play, with no luck.

That said... I'd like to play, but I only played the one time, so I am basically a newb (college was ~1980). And I have questions/concerns. Like; how are disputes handled? As I recall, our prof held our hands the first couple rounds. And how are moves handled? By email? Is there a deadline for submittal? I've never played any game via email.

But I'm interested.
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 12:23 PM on November 17, 2008


Better drink your vodka fast, fucker.

In pre-soviet Russia, stab backs you.
posted by juv3nal at 12:24 PM on November 17, 2008 [3 favorites]


Another n00b here, looking to get in on the easy game if it's still possible. I've wanted to play Diplomacy since I read about it in Bimbos of the Death Sun.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 12:32 PM on November 17, 2008


This is great, spamguy- thanks for setting this up! I am smiling a perfectly trustworthy and innocent smile at you with absolutely no ulterior motives whatsoever.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 12:33 PM on November 17, 2008


I'm happy to play in any capacity. I've only played Diplomacy a handful of times and that was years ago.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:52 PM on November 17, 2008


BTW, I'd love to play a game if there turns out to be an Easy 3 or Normal 2. If someone would like to manage this theoretical game, I'll pencil myself in as a player.

Dormant Gorilla: glad to do it. I love watching Dip negotiating more than I like actually playing. *slowly reaches for butterfly knife*
posted by spamguy at 1:09 PM on November 17, 2008


This thing behind my back is a flower. A pretty flower. I brought you this flower because I am your friend and I would never ever betray you. Observe my small, unthreatening button nose and earnest eyes. Absolutely nothing is going on in Bohemia. Nothing at all.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 1:24 PM on November 17, 2008


I'll play if there's a third easy game or if a bunch of people drop out.
posted by burnmp3s at 1:55 PM on November 17, 2008


Can't wait, sounds fun. I'm glad my post spurred this on in the first place.
posted by schyler523 at 2:02 PM on November 17, 2008


If a second normal game happens, I will play
posted by rakish_yet_centered at 2:13 PM on November 17, 2008


Count me in as another n00b for an easy game if you get enough to have Easy3.
posted by weebil at 3:08 PM on November 17, 2008


For anyone who's new or returning to the game and needs a refresher, I present to you The Diplomacy Bible.
posted by scabrous at 3:27 PM on November 17, 2008


Spamguy, thanks for doing this. What's the follow-up? MeMail? Is there anything we can do to make it easier for you to collect email address?
posted by KokuRyu at 3:37 PM on November 17, 2008


Lemurrhea:
noun
An overwhelming concentration of lemurs

How can you not love us? We are so cute, so innocent. Even John Cleese prefers having a species named after him than a knighthood!

That knife we're holding in our prehensile tail? It's to defend ourselves against all those who would do us harm. Not by striking first, either. We would not do such a thing.
posted by Lemurrhea at 3:53 PM on November 17, 2008


hi, sign me up for the doofus league, too.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 4:49 PM on November 17, 2008


Yes yes yes yes. Yes.

Green players league, please.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 5:20 PM on November 17, 2008


I'd also like to join an Easy game if there's room.
posted by pravit at 5:31 PM on November 17, 2008


I can't commit to anything right now, but this sounds like sick fun. Consider doing another post if you start a second round of games, please.
posted by Bookhouse at 6:47 PM on November 17, 2008


Sounds like we're having an Easy 3, then. (Sounds like the name of a cocktail, don't it?)

Games and MeFi mails going out soon.
posted by spamguy at 6:58 PM on November 17, 2008


I've never played but if it's only half an hour every three days then I'm in for a give noobs a chance game.
posted by Mitheral at 7:09 PM on November 17, 2008


Easy game for me too, if there is space.
posted by ssg at 8:39 PM on November 17, 2008


Damn, am I too late to get into an easy game? I've never played, but had a housemate in college who always promised to bring his Diplomacy board up, but never did, and I've wanted to play ever since. In retrospect, it's probably good that I never played with people I lived with, but I still want to play.
posted by Caduceus at 8:49 PM on November 17, 2008


The logistics of large numbers of new folks are such that we might end up with some alternates action within a turn or two if a couple folks end up (a) distracted badly by life or (b) finding out that, in fact, they hate this game once they try it. Hopefully will bowl a strike and that won't happen, but it's something to keep in mind for latecomers if we don't end up filling up an extra game, for example.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:59 PM on November 17, 2008


Deployment is going very slowly. I'm still working on Normal, and then sending MeFi mails out one-by-one. (Is there any way for me to mass-mail these things?)

I can't say offhand whether another extension game is feasible at the moment, only because my sheet of notes is at work. But anyone who wants to see a possible Easy 4, keep showing interest!

Also, I encourage newbies to observe the normal MeFi game:
  1. Register at the judge. You're gonna have to do this if you're playing anyway, so might as well get it over with.
  2. Send an email to the judge with this snippet: OBSERVE [username]@norm_mefi [password] wendell SIGNOFF ...where [username] and [password] are of your choosing. 'wendell' is the game's secret keyword, to keep it private-ish.

posted by spamguy at 9:06 PM on November 17, 2008


cortex: Setting up games between strangers or loosely grouped cliques will always have that problem. I would actually expect these games to have a lower dropout rate than games started via the game tracker, just because the tracker is wild country.
posted by spamguy at 9:16 PM on November 17, 2008


Ah, fond memories of being locked in virtual antipathy and hatred with a college buddy as we warred across the boards of Diplomacy, Supremacy, Family Business, Advanced Third Reich, etc... It got to the point where we felt victorious even if we lost the game just behind the other as long as they went down first.

Still, not that into play by email, especially without alternates.
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:19 PM on November 17, 2008


it won't let me observe, or log into the judge, or register... oh well.
posted by empath at 9:26 PM on November 17, 2008


empath: PM me the details and I'll see what's up.
posted by spamguy at 9:32 PM on November 17, 2008


it just tells me my name has already been used, but hit ok to continue, i hit okay. and then it takes me to a judge screen. But I can't login with the email address and password i just used, and if i try to observe, it tells me my email address isn't registered.
posted by empath at 9:46 PM on November 17, 2008


nm, i just added an initial and it worked.
posted by empath at 9:48 PM on November 17, 2008


In case anyone else runs into this bug:

When you register, you set a password. They email you with this password. However, internally they truncate this password to 26 characters. This is NOT reflected in the email, and you can type more than 26 characters in the login screen, giving you an error.

e.g. if your chosen password was "I joined this game, because of metafilter", they would email you saying that this was your password, but it really needs to be "I joined this game, becaus".
posted by Lemurrhea at 10:15 PM on November 17, 2008


Ooh, count me in for an Easy 4, if that's what the count's at. Nice follow-on from my Eurasian politics class...

Is there a way to follow along with the Normal game?
posted by foodmapper at 11:23 PM on November 17, 2008


Wow, that judge-thingy is as intense as all hell. I'm going to have to legally change my name to A. Ampersand now, aren't I?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:23 PM on November 17, 2008


DPJUDGE WILL COME TO YOUR HOUSE AND CUT YOUR FACE UP REAL GOOD IF YOU TRY TO CHEAT

Agree? Y/N

SERIOUSLY, DPJUDGE IS NOT FUCKING AROUND HERE. IT HAD BEEN SHARPENING ITS KNIVES AND ITS WIFE JUST LEFT IT, SO IT IS ITCHING FOR A FIGHT. DON'T TEST IT.

Agree? Y/N

DID YOU JUST SAY SOMETHING?

Agree? Y/N

BECAUSE I FEEL THAT YOU SAID SOMETHING. WHAT DID I JUST SAY ABOUT FUCKING WITH DPJUDGE? IS IT GOING TO HAVE TO GET INTO ITS CAR AND DRIVE OVER? BECAUSE IT'S GETTING INTO ITS CAR RIGHT NOW.

Agree? Y/N

THAT'S IT. DPJUDGE IS ON ITS WAY. PREPARE YOURSELF FOR A LIFETIME OF HIDEOUS SCARS.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:23 AM on November 18, 2008 [9 favorites]


So, I'm a little confused by the "Your Name" field. The rules say "Every user of the DPjudge must register their full, true, and correct name with the DPjudge Player Database (DPPD)." So I can't use octothorpe and have to use "Firstname Lastname"? Can it have internal white space? And then will the parsing of something like "OBSERVE [username]@norm_mefi [password] wendell" work when username has internal white space? Or is "username" different than "Your Name"?

I'm starting to think that I should have joined the newbees game since I don't quite understand the mechanics of Play-by-email.
posted by octothorpe at 6:01 AM on November 18, 2008


Nothing like a series of long, threatening text dumps to welcome a new player.

Or is "username" different than "Your Name"?

I think you make up the username and password specific to that game. I did and it worked. But the DPJudge death squad may be on it's way to my house to "correct my mistake" for all I know.

Also, if anyone asks, my full legal name is Burn Empeethrees.
posted by burnmp3s at 6:05 AM on November 18, 2008


When you register, use your real, human name. When you sign on to observe, use whatever ya want.

The judge uses usernames to distinguish observers for some reason. When you sign on to actually play a game you will not have to deal with that crap.
posted by spamguy at 6:31 AM on November 18, 2008


Ah, glad I wasn't the only one put off by the thinly veiled threats.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 6:34 AM on November 18, 2008


The judge's hunger for your name is spawned not from a natural predatory instinct but from a past history of scheming, anything-to-win players willing to prevaricate their way into multiple hands in one game and other such hijinks. So the Your Real Name thing is mostly a matter of security theater, targeted more at hard-core long-timer game-a-week addicts than folks signing up now.

Imagine if Mefi greeted new users with blinking 36-pt red text that said "ARE YOU A FUCKING SPAMMER? ARE YOU? BECAUSE YOU CAN JUST TURN THE FUCK AROUND RIGHT NOW IF YOU ARE, WE WILL DELETE YOUR POST AND STICK AN AWL UP YOUR ASS BEFORE YOU KNOW WHAT IS WHAT SO DON'T WASTE OUR TIME, SHITHEEL" and you can sort of see the dynamic from which they're coming, though it comes off as bizarrely overwrought to, you know, almost everybody who signs up as a casual newb.

Just give it a plausible name and don't pull hijinks on anybody and you'll be fine.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:38 AM on November 18, 2008 [1 favorite]


When you register, use your real, human name.

Kind of Homosapien-normative of you, isn't that? Some of us don't HAVE human names.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 6:55 AM on November 18, 2008


octothorpe writes "So I can't use octothorpe and have to use 'Firstname Lastname'?"

Whaa? You mean you name isn't Octo T. Horpe? Apparently I've been doing this handle thing wrong.
posted by Mitheral at 6:55 AM on November 18, 2008


The judge's hunger for your name is spawned ... from a past history of scheming, anything-to-win players willing to prevaricate their way into multiple hands in one game and other such hijinks.

As a former judge keeper, I can certainly vouch for this. Back then (early to late 90s) there wasn't a web registration and everything was done through email and the newsgroups. About a quarter of rec.diplomacy traffic was discussion of general strategy, a quarter was gloating over recent moves, and a half was allegations of cheating. And this was before eternal September!

It may seem like overkill for a new casual group of players like us, but we're using a carefully crafted system created and used by the giants in the Diplomacy world. If Kasparov has created a play by email chess system, he wouldn't want to put up with the troublemakers, either.

Now get off my lawn! What do you think Tyrolia is, a public park?
posted by ewagoner at 7:05 AM on November 18, 2008


Oh shit, ewagoner is experienced and is either Italy or Austria. Either way, he's already claiming lands. Such aggression!

Despair! We must organize now!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:11 AM on November 18, 2008


Wait a sec, is this thing starting? Or has only the normal game started?
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 7:17 AM on November 18, 2008


And yeah, I signed on to observe the normal game but am not sure how to follow along. Just figuring out the brute mechanics of how to do this via email is going to take a while. But it will be worth it when I destroy you all.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 7:19 AM on November 18, 2008


It's the Tyrolian Feint, you fool. He's clearly playing England and trying to kill a budding Anschluss in the cradle.

It may seem like overkill for a new casual group of players like us, but we're using a carefully crafted system created and used by the giants in the Diplomacy world.

Yeah, exactly; it's not meant to scare us, it's meant to scare the guys for whom this is an all-consuming passion. Joe Public doesn't care if he gets barred from Clown College, but a guy working on his Masters of Seltzering would be devastated, and it's that guy that the "you MUST register your official shoe-size" signage is aimed.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:22 AM on November 18, 2008


That is so like an Englishman, what with their beards and all. They stroke them lovingly, staring at their maps and planning evil upon all the peoples of the world.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:27 AM on November 18, 2008


Can't access the judge site from work. Grrr. Will try again at home.

Oh, and "Masters of Seltzering" would be a great name for a band.
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 7:44 AM on November 18, 2008


Can't access the judge site from work. Grrr.

I used to have the same problem. The bright side is that you can do all the play and press via normal email, and you can likewise instruct the judge to send you gifs and pdfs of current-state and previous-state game maps.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:53 AM on November 18, 2008


I was just flipping through the diplomacy bible, and jesus, was this thing written in 1947?

"a stooge being a player who has no intention of winning, perhaps because he knows he isn’t good enough and lacks the moral courage to break an alliance...I hardly like to mention it, but almost all female diplomats are stooges".

I politely implore you to bite my shiny metal ass, sir. That is, if you have the moral courage to do so.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 8:06 AM on November 18, 2008


Imagine if Mefi greeted new users with blinking 36-pt red text that said "ARE YOU A FUCKING SPAMMER? ARE YOU? BECAUSE YOU CAN JUST TURN THE FUCK AROUND RIGHT NOW IF YOU ARE, WE WILL DELETE YOUR POST AND STICK AN AWL UP YOUR ASS BEFORE YOU KNOW WHAT IS WHAT SO DON'T WASTE OUR TIME, SHITHEEL

You have just described the dating scene in early 90's midwestern Canada.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:40 AM on November 18, 2008


Joe Public doesn't care if he gets barred from Clown College

Well this Joe Public does, since it's his intention to do a bit of clowning around/pwning ass.

Hey former judge ewagoner -- are us average Joes going to be kicked out for using our MeFi names or variants thereof? Just because this was designed for the hardcore player/cheater doesn't mean it won't be applied to us. And I'd like to play.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:45 AM on November 18, 2008


Eeeeeexcellent. One more dude needs to sign in for the normal game, and they can get started. I haven't even touched the Easy games yet, only because my poor sick kitteh went to the vet today and I'm off to work in a sec.

BTW, I'm going to try sending signon info by email for the Easy games, because 28 individual MeFi mails = ouch. If you're playing in an Easy game, I would appreciate knowing your email address, either through your profile or by private message. (I know: sending your email address to a dude named spamguy...that'll end well.) If I don't get your addy, it's OK, but you'll be last to know when the game starts.

I honestly forgot USDP made such a fuss about legitimate info, so I was wondering what all the cracks about USDP fucking me up in my sleep with a broken 40 bottle were about. Heh.
posted by spamguy at 9:08 AM on November 18, 2008


I used to play quite a bit, but don't really have time for it now. England was my favorite country to play, even though my only solo win was with Germany. Happy stabbing, all!
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:10 AM on November 18, 2008


email is in my profile.
posted by Wolfdog at 9:30 AM on November 18, 2008


Durn Bronzefist: If you're certain that this is going to be the only game you play, don't worry about it too much. But if you think there's even a chance you might play other games in the future, give them your real info. Reputation is essential, and this is really the only way to establish it. There's nothing worse than having a casual game ruined by a fuckwad, and many games, even casual ones, are only open to players with a good reputation behind their account.
posted by ewagoner at 9:36 AM on November 18, 2008


Email in the profile. Looking forward to many years of peaceful relations with the many various nations of Europe. Also, stabbing.
posted by Inkoate at 9:36 AM on November 18, 2008


If I submitted an observation request, does that mean I can't log in to the game? How do I observe it?
posted by solipsophistocracy at 11:36 AM on November 18, 2008


Okay, my email's visible in my profile now. Don't make me regret that.
posted by Caduceus at 12:13 PM on November 18, 2008


solipsophistocracy: For any given game you can either observe (see snippet above) or play. As an observer you receive processed results and broadcasted press. You're not playing in norm_mefi, but feel free to observe.
posted by spamguy at 12:31 PM on November 18, 2008


So it's not necessary to log in to observe, and there just haven't been any results or press posted yet?
posted by solipsophistocracy at 12:53 PM on November 18, 2008


You need to sign up via the command above, of course. After that, I believe you do not have to log in again. Press and results are both emailed to you. Visiting the game's page without explicitly signing in will give you the benefit of result history and a visualisation of moves and outcomes. For observers, signing in has no major benefit except the ability to stop observing.
posted by spamguy at 1:06 PM on November 18, 2008


Spamguy, you are fully awesome. Still taking names for Easy 4?
posted by Westringia F. at 1:42 PM on November 18, 2008


Why yes, I am awesome, how did you know? :)

I haven't even considered the roster for Easy 4 yet. I'm watching Normal like a hawk, waiting for the last person to sign in (WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE). The judge is being so pokey that I've heard nothing from it an hour after submitting creation orders for Easy 1. Sorry for the delay.
posted by spamguy at 2:05 PM on November 18, 2008


Correction: ez1_mefi is ready, and players have been notified. Observers welcome to join via the above snippet. 'wendell' keyword still applies.
posted by spamguy at 2:15 PM on November 18, 2008


ewagoner: thanks. I meant to respond some time ago, but for some reason, my workplace firewall decided to censor my own comment preview as I quipped that my roomie Hitler T. Christ would never be able to participate.

The T is for Tiberius, of course.

I shall register forthwith.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:39 PM on November 18, 2008


and email in the profile.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:39 PM on November 18, 2008


Awesome, all signed up. Many thanks for putting this together!

My cat's middle name is Tiberius.
posted by equalpants at 12:02 AM on November 19, 2008


spamguy, is there any room for someone who bought Diplomacy in 1997 as a senior in high school and read the rules than and then put it away because he couldn't find anyone to play?

So, is there maybe roiom in easy 4?
posted by Snyder at 12:50 AM on November 19, 2008


I know it doesn't bode well that I'm being this stupid, but shouldn't the join command for easy1 be JOIN ez1_mefi [mypassword] wendell ? I sent that and got a message back that the order was "unprocessed". Erp.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 6:16 AM on November 19, 2008


I think you have to put SIGNOFF on the next line.

Or you might need to put the game title in the email subject. I don't know if that's required, but the mailto: link on the site had that, so I left it in.
posted by equalpants at 6:36 AM on November 19, 2008


No worries about the subject line; I left mine blank, and I don't think the judge pays any attention to it under normal circumstances.

And yeah, drop a SIGNOFF after your actual commands. The way the email processor works, it goes through your email line by line trying to process orders until it reaches either SIGNOFF or EOF.

I'd guess (but haven't checked) that it deals with EOF gracefully enough in theory as implicit SIGNOFF, but you've probably got, like most folks, a .sig in there; and that .sig is full of a few lines of text that are manifestly unprocessable dpjudge directives. Heh.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:57 AM on November 19, 2008


(That is, the literal end of file, not the string "EOF".)
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:58 AM on November 19, 2008


spamguy: "I'm watching Normal like a hawk, waiting for the last person to sign in (WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE)."

If this is a reference to me, I sent you a MeMail the other day indicating that I'm a distrustworthy know-nothing who doesn't deserve to run a country. I've withdrawn my name from consideration for this honor, although I am humbled and other things.

*walks to helicopter, accompanied by Hail to the Chief*
posted by Plutor at 7:32 AM on November 19, 2008


Huh, so I sent the same string with SIGNOFF at the end and the response email from the judge was:

Expected SIGNON, JOIN, CREATE, RESIGN, TAKEOVER, SUMMARY, HISTORY, or LIST,
or a valid non-map-power join command (e.g., OBSERVE playerName@gameName).
Unprocessed portion of message follows:

*JOIN ez1_mefi [password] wendell
SIGNOFF*
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 7:44 AM on November 19, 2008


is there any room for someone who bought Diplomacy in 1997 as a senior in high school and read the rules than and then put it away because he couldn't find anyone to play?

Who doesn't that describe?

If you check the wiki, there is rampant speculation about when the first game of Diplomacy may actually take place. My money is on 2028.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:36 AM on November 19, 2008


Plutor: nope, you're cleared. I'm only mostly certain who the culprit is.
posted by spamguy at 11:01 AM on November 19, 2008


Dormant Gorilla, apparently you need to format the username and game name like an email address:

JOIN yourusername@gamename gameviewingpassword wendell

In my case it was:
OBSERVE foodmapper@ez1_mefi password wendell

Hope this helps! I didn't bother with a signoff, as there was no more text in the body.
posted by foodmapper at 9:24 PM on November 19, 2008


Woof! I am now Power#5 in game ez1_mefi.
posted by Wolfdog at 4:06 AM on November 20, 2008


Thanks foodmapper- but I thought when you were joining a game (as opposed to observing) you didn't specify a username, because it will assign you one based on the country you get. So what should I put before the @?

And sorry guys- if I'm the only one yet to join easy1, please feel free to give my spot to someone else. I don't know why the judge hates me but I keep trying to join to no avail, and I don't want to hold everyone else up. I guess I could always keep trying and eventually join a later game.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 6:43 AM on November 20, 2008


norm_mefi seems to be habitually short one player. Anyone want to fill in? Visit http://www.floc.net/dpjudge/?game=norm_mefi and follow signup instructions.

Even if you're not that experienced, give it a shot. The 'normal' vs 'easy' is a slight misnomer: there are actually no differences except normal deadlines are only 36 hours, and I'm letting players choose powers (if they wish) in normal. If you know the game rules (going into the game, you should anyway), you're mostly set.
posted by spamguy at 8:52 AM on November 20, 2008


Dormant Gorilla, you're correct in thinking that you don't specify a username.

I sent to the judge:

JOIN ez1_mefi [password] wendell

No subject line, no signoff, no signature.
Are you perhaps sending from a cellphone/etc? They've got some special instructions on how to do things in that case.
posted by Lemurrhea at 1:15 PM on November 20, 2008


Norm seems to have started-- can we get a play by play and color commentary in the thread here after each turn?
posted by empath at 2:59 PM on November 20, 2008


Can I get on the waitlist for one of the easy games? I see they haven't started yet; if anyone's dropped, I'll gladly jump in.
posted by kaibutsu at 4:52 PM on November 20, 2008


Norm seems to have started-- can we get a play by play and color commentary in the thread here after each turn?

If I understand the gunboat notion correctly, it'd be best if participants in the normal game refrain from most of that themselves, at least if we're taking anonymity seriously. Many a game-with-friends has gone from being anonymous to being not remotely anonymous by early 1902 after our attempts to coyly discuss the game incognito in IRC was reduced to "coyly" claiming to be or not be England (OR IS HE?!?!?) to just kind of yelling at whoever finally unambiguously betrays their position and everyone collectively abandoning the pretense of anonymity entirely.

Which is fun in its own way, granted, but does seem a bit off from the spirit of the thing. So it'd be better if we stayed away from specifics ourselves and let the spectators do most of the chewing, maybe.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:46 PM on November 20, 2008


In fact, it got to the point where we reduced "OR AM I" to just OAI (and "OR ARE YOU" to OAY, "OR IS HE" to OIH, etc) just to save keystrokes. Maybe we were just really uniquely bad at keeping it under wraps.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:48 PM on November 20, 2008


Cortex is right, it's much better to stay quiet and anonymous. But after the game is over, it would be nice to know who played what, so we can nurse our grudges congratulate the victor publicly.
posted by cmonkey at 10:01 PM on November 20, 2008


So, in the easy games, is there a choice in home country or is it prechosen by order of joining?
Oh, and good luck Ez1_Mefi!

stab stab stab
posted by schyler523 at 10:04 PM on November 20, 2008


Lemurrhea- thanks! I'm not sending from a phone though. I re-sent the string and got the same error. I have no idea why but am going to do some research. In the meantime-

Spamguy- please give my spot in ez1 to the first person who's waiting. I just don't want to hold you guys up. I'm going to try and figure out why the hell I can't join and hopefully will have sorted it out by the time the first game ends, and would love to get in on the next one (assuming that people are going to want to play more than once)....
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 7:09 AM on November 21, 2008


we still need two more folks in ez2...
posted by xbonesgt at 7:26 AM on November 21, 2008


Does anyone mind if I just snag the one of the two open spots in Ez1 or Ez2? They've been open for a while...
posted by pravit at 9:30 AM on November 21, 2008


Yeah, go for it.

Sorry it didn't work out, DG.
posted by spamguy at 10:16 AM on November 21, 2008


Can I take the last EZ1 spot?
posted by burnmp3s at 12:34 PM on November 21, 2008


Can I get in for one of the spots on ez2?
posted by Snyder at 5:35 PM on November 21, 2008


AFAIC, people were given their chances to join. Anyone who wants to join ez1 and ez2 can. Let me know who you are so I don't try to assign you to upcoming ez3.
posted by spamguy at 8:51 PM on November 21, 2008


I joined ez1, so good luck fellow n00bz.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:21 PM on November 21, 2008


And we're off!
posted by pravit at 10:21 PM on November 21, 2008


I just took the last spot in ez2, so that one has kicked off as well now.
posted by ssg at 12:26 PM on November 22, 2008


I'm probably going to get crushed by the fourth move but I'm really enjoying this. What a great game.
posted by octothorpe at 8:33 AM on November 25, 2008


The suspense is terrible. I hope it'll last.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:56 AM on November 25, 2008


Man, no action till friday on ez1 and 2? I was hoping for some distraction from the constant twitching norm seems to have triggered in me. Interesting board so far, and it's kind of killing me not to chatter about it in detail.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:46 AM on November 25, 2008


Yeah, despite spending most of the weekend panicking and obsessing over not knowing what the hell I was doing, I'm sort of champing at the bit to get things moving.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:53 AM on November 25, 2008


To those waiting for word on ez3 and possibly ez4, sorry about the silence. Now that norm and ez1/2 are rolling along, I'm catching my breath. For the first two days of setup the ratio of real work to Diplomacy work was a little concerning. :)

Man, if the action in norm is picking up already, the next few years are going to be intense. I look forward to it.

Random idea for a future Dip MeFi game: everyone at once on Imperial or Chaos. Fuck yeah.
posted by spamguy at 10:21 AM on November 26, 2008 [1 favorite]


Thanks for the work you've put into this spamguy, as well as the link to the jDip program, that was enormously helpful!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:50 AM on November 26, 2008


spamguy: I'd be happy to master a game if you want to join in on one.
posted by cmonkey at 10:55 AM on November 26, 2008


Imperial seems kind of wanky to me, but I'd love to see a game of Chaos some time, yeah.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:25 AM on November 26, 2008


The back-and-forth press in the ez game I am in has been fascinating so far -- the action just hasn't hit the map yet.

I was fascinated with all the variants listed on the DP Judge, and Imperial (and some of the other larger maps) seems really cool. Count me in for that or Chaos.
posted by Rock Steady at 1:58 PM on November 26, 2008


I've pretty much been reading variants and EOG reports on old games since that last comment. Dang it, norm_mefi, happen faster!
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:15 PM on November 26, 2008


Hey guys! I am interested in watching... is there an online place where visitors can see the boards turn by turn?
posted by Meatbomb at 11:34 PM on November 26, 2008


You can check out turn-by-turn histories of games from the splash page for said games. norm is here; the ez1, ez2 etc games are the same thing but with that prefix instead of "norm" in the url.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:18 AM on November 27, 2008


So if you click the "Wait for deadline before processing" button, does that mean that you can send updated moves before the deadline? I don't know if I'll be in internet range again before my moves are due so I just sent in my moves a day early but I might want to change my move based on any presses that I get before the timeout.
posted by octothorpe at 9:07 AM on November 27, 2008


Yes octo, you can update. I did so already in the game I am in.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:48 AM on November 27, 2008


"Wait for deadline" just prevents the game from ticking early; if no one selects that, the processing window gets triggered as soon as all players have submitted moves.

Of course, that can be a good thing if everyone has settled on their strategy for the turn and is okay with the game just getting going, but the wait flag is handy for anyone who wants the extra diplomacy time to think or to accommodate a national holiday, etc.

So if you put in your best moves now, wait flag 'em, and happen to get back to a computer after everyone has their moves in but before deadline and you find that someone has (accidentally? OR IS IT?!) mis-sent press to you that was actually supposed to go to your or-so-you-thought ally, you'll have a chance to revise your plans, yeah.

I don't think I've ever been in a waitable game where there's been a term that didn't last the full interval due to one or more wait flags. A bit silly, that, but I guess it's nice to have the option of playing faster turns even if it never seems to actually happen.

Note that submitting with a wait flag is much, much better behavior than just not submitting and overstepping the deadline. I tend to put in a conservative move immediately when a new turn comes around, waitflag it, and then put in revised orders from scratch after actual diplomatic exchanges have taken place.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:51 AM on November 27, 2008


I'm sorry I missed this. Looks quite interesting. Don't suppose there are enough left over people for an ez3...
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:24 PM on November 27, 2008


Heh, or I coulda just scrolled up. Sorry about that. Yes, please count me in for ez3 when and if it gets assembled.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:51 PM on November 27, 2008


Oh, and ironically enough, I think Turkey has dropped off the face of the Earth in EZ1.
posted by schyler523 at 8:34 AM on November 28, 2008


More like Jive Turkey, amirite?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:48 AM on November 28, 2008


So do we have to wait indefinitely until Turkey submits his move, or is there some additional deadline after the first deadline?
posted by pravit at 1:35 PM on November 28, 2008


(which apparently has no use other than highlighting who was late)?
posted by pravit at 1:35 PM on November 28, 2008


Yeah, all I know is that I'm way out of my league. You know the guy with the bowtie who is pretty good at playing pool with his friends? That's me. I'm all smiling from getting a bank shot on the 8 after the 3rd try. Everyone else has slicked back hair and toothpicks in their grinning mouths.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:34 PM on November 28, 2008


I don't recognise the person playing as Turkey. Either his MeFi email address is very, very different from the self-titled one he uses for Diplomacy, or he's some dude that wandered in from the cold internets and decided to stay.

If he doesn't respond to my threat I'll bring in someone else. Sorry, all.
posted by spamguy at 7:38 PM on November 28, 2008


Yay, ez2 action!

Interesting (but not super surprising, I guess) to see nearly the same friendly-looking EF opening as we had in norm. But no action in the Black Sea! And Russia moving south in force while Austria pulls a kind of baffling turtle.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:20 PM on November 28, 2008


I'm just copying my counterpart in the game where they know what they're doing.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:20 PM on November 28, 2008 [1 favorite]


The first deadline for the ez1 game was last night, but when I log in, it says it is still processing. Is this Turkey's fault? I got indignant letters expressing dismay and outrage at the mendacity of my neighbors to draft, but without knowing who to address them to I can't add that personal tinge of nationalist chauvinism that makes my letters such fun to write, dammit.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:01 PM on November 29, 2008


Turkey got smoked, yo.

Does this mean I have to re-send my disinformation and chicanery vital intelligence reports, or will whoever ends up playing New Turkey get any messages I sent to Old Turkey?
posted by Rock Steady at 11:48 AM on November 30, 2008


I'm pretty sure that the dpjudge doesn't keep copies of messages, so you'll need to resend, Rock Steady.
posted by cmonkey at 8:14 AM on December 1, 2008


Though if spamguy set it up with the EAVESDROP command, he would have copies; but he didn't mention doing so, and regardless that might be a pile of work for him to corral.

You'll probably want to start over with New Turkey anyway. Possibly by explaining in detail the favorable alliance to which Old Turkey had sworn a blood oath.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:56 AM on December 1, 2008 [1 favorite]


I actually am running EAVESDROP. I rarely get time or motivation to read what people send each other, so usually it goes straight to the trash.

Rock Steady, if you would like your press to Old Turkey, it may still be sitting on my HD. Honestly, though, I wouldn't recommend a flat-out resending of everything to New Turkey. A single piece of press with pre-chewed current events is good enough.

If you're curious, this is the guy (with great certainty) that played as Old Turkey. If you see him walking past you, kick him in the nuts for me.
posted by spamguy at 2:29 PM on December 1, 2008


So who's New Turkey?
posted by pravit at 3:28 PM on December 1, 2008


Rock Steady, if you would like your press to Old Turkey, it may still be sitting on my HD.

Enh, I guess I've got it in Sent Mail, for that matter. Can't wait for this game to get started.
posted by Rock Steady at 3:44 PM on December 1, 2008


If nobody's been found yet, I'll gladly take over for Turkey.

I'm just doing my part to aid my fellow Mefites, of course..
posted by Lemurrhea at 4:39 PM on December 1, 2008


I am highly enjoying the game I am in so far and looking forward to future games already.
posted by adamdschneider at 9:38 PM on December 2, 2008


I'm not sure if I'm enjoying this or if it's driving me crazy.
posted by octothorpe at 11:50 AM on December 3, 2008


I think that means you're doing it right, octothorpe. Diplomacy is so weird.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:02 PM on December 3, 2008


I don't know about the other newbs, but I feel like I'm flaying about, directing this army to go there and this fleet to go here while getting e-mails from half the other players telling me things like "Germany agreed to let England into Holland in exchange for me letting England think they're taking over Greece, but in fact, I'm going to crush them from 5 sides in one move in fall 1907."

I don't think I have the mental power required to do this right.
posted by jeversol at 9:40 PM on December 3, 2008


I'm fairly sure that everyone is plotting against me.
posted by empath at 5:05 PM on December 4, 2008


So are we going to see some movement in EZ1 this time? The deadline's tonight, and "one or more powers have not yet submitted orders."
posted by pravit at 5:32 PM on December 4, 2008


FINALLY some action!
posted by pravit at 10:02 PM on December 4, 2008


Ha! Another E & F, Sitting In A Tree opening. And I don't think there's been a VEN/TRI bounce in any of the game either. We should start calling this set of moves "The Metafilter".

That double-bounce for Russia has to be a little annoying, but what do you do.

Anyway, nice to see the ez1 action kick off. Fun opening so far.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:30 PM on December 4, 2008


ez2, I salute your collective fiestiness.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:34 PM on December 5, 2008


I'm just copying my counterpart in the game where they know what they're doing.

Oh crap I hope we're not playing as the same power
posted by xbonesgt at 3:07 PM on December 5, 2008


I am interested in reading cortex's extended thoughts on ez2 :) Because I have no idea who is winning.
posted by empath at 4:53 PM on December 5, 2008


I'm not great at reading a game state, though I get a little better every time I play, but a few things that do jump out at me (and keep in mind that this is pretty damned early in the game, too, and no one looks doomed):

- Austria could be in better shape, but it's not really his fault tactically. And Austria in bad shape usually means Russia and Turkey in good shape, which is how it looks to me. That's gonna be interesting to see those three deal with the Balkans.

- Russia in particular is looking good; holding Rumania with a bounce while grabbing the Black Sea; cooperation from England into Sweden suggest some diplomatic promise between those two, and with the German ouster of Belgium etc. it might be a good thing for England to firm that friendship up some.

- The double-strength Channel bounce doesn't speak to great EF relations at this point, either, and with the move to the Irish Sea there's no question of England taking the Channel in the Fall if he wants it bad enough, so that might keep going downhill.

- In which case: France + Germany? It's not a gimme, but with a potential ER alliance and England with good position in the water, FG might have something to talk about.

- That Italian/Turkish bounce in Greece had to suck, for both of them but for Italy in particular. It's risky to go for anything but sure-thing Tunisia in '01, and Italy got dicked out of his build because of it. Oh to be a fly on the wall of those negotiations—were they lying to each other, or did they just plain butt heads?

- And Turkey's three-ply push into Greece in Spring 02 here suggests he didn't trust Austria not to support an Italian do-over (or Italy to support an Austrian attempt from Serbia). With Italy and Austria politely ignoring each other on their claustrophobic border, that's maybe not paranoia so much as just conservative play. But then, no support for Bulgaria from sitting-on-its-hands Constantinople? Either Turkey was pretty damn sure that Austria and Russia wouldn't collaborate to push him out, or that was reckless play. OR IS IT? Heh.

Anyway, like I said, no one seems to be losing yet. Italy is off to a slow start but has been unmolested by his neighbors so far, so that zero-build first year didn't hurt him much. Russia I think is off to a strong start, but he's staring at three potential fronts so diplomacy is going to be pretty important here. Four-fleet England is in good shape to assert a lot of control over northern waters, so that should be interesting to watch. All in all, like I said, feisty. Looks like a fun game so far.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:29 PM on December 5, 2008


Also, I feel like diplo chatter has a certain Heisenbergian thing going on with it—pointing something out almost by definition calls into question whether it's something you then want to pursue, because now everybody knows you're thinking about it, right? So maybe that alliance isn't such a good idea after all! But, that's just what they'll be thinking too!

It's like the battle of wits from Princess Bride, except with seven characters and you have no idea who the protagonist is supposed to be. It's a wonderful part of the game. At the end of the day, careful tactical play and sensible, loyal short-term alliances can take a lot of the guesswork out of it and make these head-twisters a bit more tractable, but since everybody is trying to take over Europe, it never really goes away.

posted by cortex (staff) at 5:44 PM on December 5, 2008


ez2 is interesting with one of England's armies stranded in Burgundy. He has the capability to be annoying, if not dangerous, with that position.
posted by cmonkey at 12:41 PM on December 7, 2008


i think the fact that there are multiple newbies playing in EZ2 is obvious by some of the weird moves this turn.
posted by empath at 3:06 PM on December 8, 2008


Yeah, it sort of went wobbly in the middle there. I want to give Italy a hug and explain how the Winter adjustment phase works and why you can't just pop into Tunisa in the Spring and hop back out to Apulia in the fall again.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:18 PM on December 8, 2008


what's the advantage to logging in as an observer? From what I can tell, I have access to the same information as an observer (of the norm game, in my case), a player (in ez2), and not logged in at all (ez1). Obviously I can't give orders in the games I'm not playing in, but is that the only difference? Is this how all judges/websites are, or just the one we're using?
posted by xbonesgt at 4:26 PM on December 8, 2008


If you are logged in as an observer, I believe you receive game updates via email, as well as comminques that are broadcast to all players in the game.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:37 PM on December 8, 2008


yeah, you get emails when moves happen and broadcast press.
posted by empath at 5:30 PM on December 8, 2008


Turkey is the Sick Man of norm_mefi
posted by empath at 9:59 PM on December 8, 2008


Yeah, Turkey is gone as of the end of '04, unless he has some sort of bizarre deal worked out with Austria or Russia.

I think France can keep Brest and Portugal through the end of the year no matter what; and I don't think he can do anything to keep Paris unless he can make a deal with Italy. I'm not sure Spain is worth mentioning.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:19 PM on December 8, 2008


What do you think about EZ1, cortex?
posted by schyler523 at 7:48 AM on December 9, 2008


I mean, other than that we are slow...
posted by schyler523 at 7:49 AM on December 9, 2008


I think that that triple-bounce in Greece was hilarious, mostly. Nobody got destroyed, which is always a good sign if you're somebody who was worried about being destroyed.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:02 AM on December 9, 2008


interesting that england kept its army on the continent and disbanded a fleet in ez2
posted by empath at 2:02 PM on December 9, 2008


Poor Italy, in both the EZ games!

One of my favorite variants is Chromatic, with Italy all the way 'round.
posted by ewagoner at 11:25 AM on December 10, 2008


YIPE! I went away for Thanksgiving and managed to forget about this entirely. Sorry for bitching up the works for ez1. I hope I can get in next time
posted by Wolfdog at 7:08 AM on December 11, 2008


At long last, my long Turkish nightmare is over.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:24 AM on December 11, 2008


Is the Master able to post some of the better communications from these games after they're concluded? Or is this just not cool?
posted by darksofa at 3:49 PM on December 11, 2008


I'd love to see a post-game digest of the press, yeah. I suppose whether or not it's cool is sort of a question for the players in a given game as much as anything.
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:25 PM on December 11, 2008


So does this mean I should stop insulting the honour of the families of people not privy to the communications I'm sending? Or I guess it's too late, might as well keep it up.

I'd been down for the press - I want to see what my "allies" had been saying.
posted by Lemurrhea at 4:50 PM on December 11, 2008


if everyone else in ez2 agrees (and if it's possible to do), then I'd love to see a press digest too.
posted by xbonesgt at 5:55 PM on December 11, 2008


I'm finding in the game that I'm playing that there just isn't a lot of press (or actual diplomacy) happening.
posted by KokuRyu at 3:09 AM on December 12, 2008


A press digest would be a badass idea, yes. Unfortunately I read maybe 5% of what's sent and delete the rest without thinking. If I had known from the start I woulda saved everything.

Maybe an incomplete digest, starting this second?
posted by spamguy at 7:09 AM on December 12, 2008


I'd be willing to provide copies of all my outgoing press if other folks in norm are willing to do the same.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:26 AM on December 12, 2008


I'm finding in the game that I'm playing that there just isn't a lot of press (or actual diplomacy) happening.

If no one is talking to you in a game of diplomacy, you're probably in trouble.
posted by empath at 7:51 AM on December 12, 2008


I've saved all the press I've received...I'd be willing to share.
posted by schyler523 at 9:23 AM on December 12, 2008


If no one is talking to you in a game of diplomacy, you're probably in trouble.

Oh crap.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:32 AM on December 12, 2008


I talked a lot but it hasn't done me much good.
posted by octothorpe at 11:45 AM on December 12, 2008


He wasn't talking to you, Alvy.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:49 AM on December 12, 2008


Whew!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:56 AM on December 12, 2008


I'd be willing to provide copies of all my outgoing press if other folks in norm are willing to do the same.

I've saved all of the press I've sent or received in norm_mefi, and I'll be happy to provide it as well if everyone else is cool with that.
posted by cmonkey at 12:19 PM on December 12, 2008


Ditto for me.
posted by ewagoner at 1:02 PM on December 12, 2008


Aww, what happened to Austria and Italy in ez2? I hope they come back; it was just getting interesting...
posted by equalpants at 1:51 PM on December 15, 2008


how long is the grace period before the judge decides that they're in civil disorder?
posted by xbonesgt at 2:04 PM on December 15, 2008


And so the juggernaut begins, in ez2.
Russia got lucky in St. Petersburg, though. Wow.
posted by Lemurrhea at 2:46 PM on December 15, 2008


Wow! Yeah, that StP bounce made me laugh. Good defense by Germany in the lowlands, too, though if France and England could have come to some accord one of them would be in Belgium right now.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:57 PM on December 15, 2008


I would say that England could have been in Belgium right now anyways, accord or not. But the self-bounce was nice. I feel bad for whoever Austria was - although they weren't in the best of positions, they were in no way dead. Now, they are.

What's the consensus on how ez1 is going? Finally two years have passed.
posted by Lemurrhea at 4:23 PM on December 15, 2008


While we're waiting for ez3, I'd like to put in some props for phpdiplomacy.net as well. It looks less hardcore than dpjudge by far, but for brand new people like me, that can be a plus.

I've been playing there for practice (mostly taking already doomed players that have been abandoned - which I don't really recommend, as I think I learned a lot less that way than I would by starting a game or two from the beginning,) but I think it makes it a bit easier to really see how the game works, which i think should make it a bit easier to figure out ez3 when it starts.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 4:31 PM on December 15, 2008


Anybody want to take on Austria in EZ2?
posted by empath at 5:10 PM on December 15, 2008


If we've got 7 people wanting to play ez3, I can master it.
posted by Lemurrhea at 9:31 AM on December 16, 2008


I'm waiting for EZ3.
posted by Mitheral at 3:12 PM on December 16, 2008


I'll see if I can get ez3 messages sent out today.
posted by spamguy at 6:41 AM on December 17, 2008


A couple of questions:

1. Can someone explain movement in and around Denmark to me in normal English? SKA does not border HEL, right? Does HEL border BAL? There are not two coasts in KIE, right?

2. I'm still not sure how the deadline thingy works, but is it possible to have the games pause from Thursday through Sunday of next week, in the spirit of Christmas? We can all imagine our troops coming out of their foxholes and playing soccer or something.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:45 AM on December 18, 2008


I wouldn't complain if there was a pause in hostilities, my brave troops deserve a rest from the carnage.

And my parents don't have internet.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:50 AM on December 18, 2008


Can someone explain movement in and around Denmark to me in normal English? SKA does not border HEL, right? Does HEL border BAL? There are not two coasts in KIE, right?

This map makes it a little more clear I think. As far as I know, SKA doesn't border HEL, HEL doesn't border BAL, and KIE doesn't have two coasts. When in doubt, check it out in jDip before you assume anything.

I don't need a break for the holidays but if anyone else wants one I have no problem with it.
posted by burnmp3s at 12:05 PM on December 18, 2008


Fleets in KIE can go to HOL, BER, DEN, HEL, or BAL. No coastal worries.
Fleets in HEL can go to HOL, KIE, DEN, or NTH. Not to the Baltic, not to Skagos
Fleets in SKA can go to NTH, NWY, SWE, DEN. Not to Helgolland, not to the Baltic
Fleets in DEN can go to KIE, HEL, NTH, SKA, SWE, BAL.
Fleets in BAL can go to DEN, KIE, SWE (and ber, pru, lyn, but that's obvious). Not SKA
Armies in DEN can go to KIE or SWE.
Fleets in DEN cannot convoy, even though it looks like water. So no NWY - SKA - DEN - BAl - BER.

But yeah, test it in Jdip and you should be fine.

Assuming my Mexican vacation lets my phone work, I can keep playing. If not, I'll talk a friend of mine into taking over for a week. So either way.
posted by Lemurrhea at 1:19 PM on December 18, 2008


This map is made of rectangles and is topologically equivalent to the real one. Easiest way to tell if things are connected.
posted by Lemurrhea at 1:21 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]


This map is made of rectangles

Ooh, I like that -- Robot Diplomacy! Are there any AI Diplomacy bots out there? It would be fun to set seven of them up and just watch them play.
posted by Rock Steady at 4:54 PM on December 18, 2008


Here's some resources from the folks behind what looks like the most promising venture in diplo AI.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:35 PM on December 18, 2008 [1 favorite]


Roster for ez3_mefi:
  1. ObscureReferenceMan
  2. solipsophistocracy
  3. weebil
  4. fantabulous
  5. Durn Bronzefist
  6. pravit
  7. Mitheral
Mailings have been sent out. Selections based on FC,FS, so if I left your name out, holla at me!
posted by spamguy at 1:19 PM on December 19, 2008

Selections based on FC,FS, so if I left your name out, holla at me!
I don't know what "FC,FS" means, but *ahem* (sigh)
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 5:06 PM on December 19, 2008


Oh, for the love of. NOW I get what FC, FS means. I feel a right prat now. Sorry.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 5:08 PM on December 19, 2008


Football Club, File System
posted by burnmp3s at 5:28 PM on December 19, 2008


France Conquers, FIN-STP
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:35 PM on December 19, 2008


I'm wondering if there will be an "ez4_mefi". If there is, can I play?
posted by KokuRyu at 10:48 PM on December 19, 2008


Didn't get enough the first time, KokuRyu?

I imagine there'll be an ez4. As JKFisher discovered, there are still a lot of people left unaccommodated by ez3.
posted by spamguy at 11:01 PM on December 19, 2008


Sign me up for ez4 when it opens since I'm no longer extant in normal.
posted by octothorpe at 6:31 AM on December 20, 2008


Heh. Yeah, if folks keep their interest up, it shouldn't be too hard to keep rolling the ez games along as folks get knocked out of priors. We may have a little more trouble keeping the norms going, but I suppose after a few iterations of ez we may see the two start to converge.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:43 AM on December 20, 2008


Possibly dopey question, but is there some way to import DPJudge results into the JDip simulator?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:45 AM on December 20, 2008


There might be a smarter way, but I've just been copying and pasting the orders from the DPJudge emails into the Multiple Orders window in jDip.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:43 AM on December 20, 2008


There's also an option to import them from the DPJudge site but I always get an error when I try that method.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:44 AM on December 20, 2008


D'oh, thanks, burnmp3s!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:24 PM on December 20, 2008


I just went to fiddle with jDip for the first time, and I'm running into the same thing. I think the error on "Import Game from floc.net..." is actually correct, based on our games being listed as private rather than open. I tried a couple of open games listed on the judge and those imported perfectly.

I don't know if it's possible to make them not-private after the fact, or if there's any other way to massage this functionality into working, but I'd love it if it were doable because the one-click functionality is pretty sweet.

My workaround is different than burnmp3s: I'm getting a gamestate listing from floc by sending an email to dpjudge@diplom.org with this no subject line and this content:

LIST norm_mefi
SIGNOFF

You'll get a game listing back via email. Copy everything in that into a text file, save that, and then use the "Import Judge File..." menu option and select the text file. It'll read that all and give you the current game state of the board.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:06 AM on December 21, 2008


The downside of this vs. the import-from-floc method is that you don't have any previous game state to review. If anybody figures out a way to get a judge file provided by floc that actually contains start-to-current info that jDip will read, spill it, but barring that the PDF of history plus the current gamestate in jDip seems like a workable compromise.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:09 AM on December 21, 2008


I didn't think 36 hour turns would feel long, but I'm snowed in here in Portland and staring at my watch.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:07 AM on December 22, 2008


I'd just like to say in Normal that I fucking despise Austria.

PS, love from Italy.
posted by arimathea at 12:25 PM on December 22, 2008


cortex and burnmp3s, I was able to import the ez game I am in into jDip with no problem, but norm is not working for me either. Also, I am so excited to find out that there is Discworld Diplomacy: Octarine.
posted by Rock Steady at 1:47 PM on December 22, 2008


Huh. Yeah, ez1 and ez2 both work fine. Maybe there's some difference in how spamguy configured norm.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:15 PM on December 22, 2008


arimathea: "I'd just like to say in Normal that I fucking despise Austria.

PS, love from Italy.
"

Hah, Italy deserves everything it gets. :P
posted by octothorpe at 2:34 PM on December 22, 2008


octothorpe: "Hah, Italy deserves everything it gets. :P"

Were you France? :)
posted by arimathea at 2:48 PM on December 22, 2008


Gentle reminder: norm_mefi is, in principle, anonymous, so we should probably try and keep it that way as best we can until the game is over.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:50 PM on December 22, 2008


Sorry about that, cortex, and didn't read through all the comments in this abysmally long thread. You can go ahead and delete mine if you want.
posted by arimathea at 4:11 PM on December 22, 2008


Nah, no biggie, just trying to make sure we don't break out into full-on chattermonkey mode. (Much as I would like to—not jabbering about the game is driving me a little crazy.)
posted by cortex (staff) at 4:14 PM on December 22, 2008


Feel free to jabber about the other two games, though. I think EZ2 has gotten interesting. Though austria's non-move seems to have ruined a lot fo people's plans.
posted by empath at 5:05 PM on December 22, 2008


What ez2 has gotten is totally juggernauty, yeah. That white-and-yellow united front isn't good news for anybody else.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:27 PM on December 22, 2008


How long is the grace period on Normal?
posted by arimathea at 12:59 PM on December 23, 2008


Not sure. I sent press to Master to inquire.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:24 PM on December 23, 2008


I'm gonna be a total n00b and admit I have no idea what the grace period is. It's whatever the default is, but there's no documentation giving that a value.

cortex: I either missed your mail or didn't get it at all. I'm in EAVESDROP mode, so everything comes to me as 'Press from X'. Pretty boneheaded of USDP.

So, a note for everyone here: even though I said earlier to send all Dip-related communique through USDP press, forget I ever said that. Send me a MeFi mail instead. It'll get lost otherwise.
posted by spamguy at 9:40 AM on December 26, 2008


Well that's it for norm_mefi. Congratulations, Austria - thanks for making me laugh even while making your final stab. Well played.

When is the next normal game?

Love,
Germany
posted by cmonkey at 3:47 AM on December 30, 2008


Despite being the third power out, I had a lot of fun. Man, it had been a while! I'm ready for the next one too.

Yours,
Nick (Former Czar of Russia)
posted by ewagoner at 5:27 AM on December 30, 2008


See what happens when you don't write back to the Turks?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:37 AM on December 30, 2008


Man, that was fun. I feel like an evil son of a bitch, but in a good way. That was my first solo, and I feel like every thing that bit me on the ass or burnt me in the previous games I've played I managed to turn around and apply toward my success in this one, which was pretty satisfying.

A lot of things went my way to make this happen—I tried to rely on tactical luck as little as possible, mostly making fairly conservative, well-reinforced moves instead of gambles where I wasn't fairly certain what other players were going to do, which is a lot of restraint for me historically speaking and which I think paid off here significantly. Slow, unstoppable progress can beat dynamic but erratic tactics.

There were a couple points where I guessed anyway, out of either want or need, and those worked out pretty well in my favor most of the time (keeping Russia sequestered in the Black Sea near the end without tying up my Aegean fleet [for all the good that did me with the bottleneck at ION, yes], getting into Naples in S07 on a coinflip decisions to seal the deal on Italy).

I have a hard time analyzing diplomatic competence and success, so I don't know if I played people well on the whole or if I was just lucky about most of the decisions people ended up making for reasons that had little to do with my diplomatic arguments. There were definitely a few small coups where I think I made the best of my simultaneous communications with more than one power, and I'm willing to notch those up as good work on my part at least.

The main thing I took from this as a metagaming lesson is that there's a lot of value in recognizing someone getting too much momentum and stopping that, which didn't happen here. The moment I hit 14 at the end of 1906, I was positive I'd see the collective fury of at least Italy and Germany turn upon me in an effort to seal up the stalemate line and hold me to a draw at 17.

It didn't happen, though, and I was allowed far too much freedom along my front line in the final year and even in the year before that while I was ballooning up, to the point where stopping me was pretty much out of the question. Whether with a quicker defense I would have still gotten the solo, I don't know—I think I had a fairly solid friend in England by the end, and that's a big hole in any potential defensive plan, and I think Germany and Italy were in less than fantastic shape with one another diplomatically (something I'd like to think I can take some credit for), so it may have been more a matter of '08 or '09 than an actual draw.

And of course a draw would have required two or probably three players to all of a sudden drop their international grievances and trust one another completely and work in perfect lockstep, which is tough stuff. Where I only had to trust myself and keep on plotting.

Really, really interesting stuff, and I enjoyed it a great deal. Thanks for the lively becrushening, folks. I've really come to like the End Of Game statements some folks on the public servers write up, and I'm working on a lengthy EOG for norm that I'll put up later today probably, talking through what was going on in my head turn-by-turn. I'd encourage anyone who has the energy to do the same. Doesn't need to be long or exhaustive, but even just noting what you thought going in vs. coming out, some of the things that you think you did well vs. things that went badly for you, moments that stood out, that sort of thing. It adds a nice per-player dimension to a game where being honest about that stuff during might be suicide.

I'd like to see norm2 get started too, though I think I'm starting into a game with some friends in a week or so and I'd rather not play two games at once—even just dealing with Austria by the end of this one was enough to overload my tactical sense and fray my nerves—so if spamguy would like to play or would just prefer a break from GMing, I'd be happy to take on mastering duty. I've never done that before either, and I think I might enjoy it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:58 AM on December 30, 2008


This game was interesting for me because it gave me the chance to try two things: play as honestly as possible, and see what happens with an AIG alliance of sorts. Italy was a bit slow with communications up until the mid-game, so it wasn't exactly an alliance, but he & I at least stayed on friendly terms the entire game, so I'll count it.

The AIG combination was interesting, as it both kept Italy and myself in the game until the end, but I think that without Italian pressure on Austria, Austria got too strong too quickly. The next time I play Germany I'll probably try the same Anschluss strategy with Austria in the beginning, but work with Italy to stab Austria as soon as Turkey or Russia is taken out.

Other than that, I regret not working with Russia against England from the beginning, as I just got mired in back and forth battles in the north that didn't lead anywhere particularly productive. ewagoner, you were right, I was wrong, I will admit it.

I think Italy & I were in OK shape diplomatically at the end, but real life got pretty busy in the last few weeks so I didn't pursue working with him as much as I should have. I know he was distrustful of me, and I can't blame him, but I think if we'd had another year or two we could have made a good team.

Take away lessons, new players: You don't need to lie as much as you think you do, don't let any power -friendly or not- get too powerful, keep in constant contact with everyone you hope to work with in the future.
posted by cmonkey at 7:50 AM on December 30, 2008


Also, I'd like to thank whomever played Turkey for their roleplaying - I didn't communicate much with you for obvious reasons, but I appreciated the storylines I saw.
posted by cmonkey at 7:58 AM on December 30, 2008


Problem with playing Turkey was that I got more wrapped up in the roleplaying and letter writing than I did in the actual, uh, tactical and strategic end of things.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:25 AM on December 30, 2008


Yeah, I was worried that might do you in, robocop. I too enjoyed the hell out of your RP and wish you'd been in the game longer and had a chance to keep it flying.

That I fucked you mercilessly makes me feel partially responsible, but if you'd gotten over the Grecian grab I really would have worked with you against Russia.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:44 AM on December 30, 2008


thanks for the explanations and revelations, norm_mefi.

also, placeholder comment
posted by xbonesgt at 8:50 AM on December 30, 2008


It just goes to show how important communication is. I was much more likely to be swayed by people who wrote frequently and in character, even if they were talking me in to cutting my own throat.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:52 AM on December 30, 2008


I shoulda been in the easy game. This was my first time playing diplomacy and I was woefully confused 90% of the time on the convoying process, otherwise I would have had a larger early lead. I did trust Austria too much and that was my mistake, although I had intended to concede to Austria if the olive branch was offered. I have some more comments on my (Italy's) strategy, but they'll have to wait.

Thanks all for an enjoyable game.
posted by arimathea at 8:58 AM on December 30, 2008


Here's my initial thoughts as Russia. I'll go back through my correspondence later on and amend as needed.

I spent the first year making relatively safe moves and feeling out the neighborhood. I guessed sometime that year that Austria was played by Cortex (sorry... but you've got a bit of a distinct writing style), and that (admittedly) unfairly biased my against Turkey. I've played many successful A-R alliances in the past, and wanted to test out Cortex's abilities some, given his comments here before the game started.

Anyway, the containment of Turkey and his quick elimination was my first goal. Naturally, Austria agreed to this, and we were off. Turkey and I exchanged few letters, and I largely brushed him off.

It's essential as Russia in an A-R alliance to have some success in the North, and my failures there were my downfall. In fact, when Germany bounced me out of Sweden that first fall, my fate was largely sealed (Germany had agreed to let me in there, and I was hoping to set up a unified front to contain England). From there, my hope was that Italy would turn against Austria at some point to keep me from being the little guy to Austria's behemoth, but that didn't happen either.

England and I talked a few times near the end, and I tried to bait him into leaving St. Pete and the far north vulnerable so I could hang on a little longer, but he didn't bite. When Austria did eventually turn on me, all I could do was hope to distract him just long enough for Germany and Italy to coordinate a defense against him. I tried to tie up as many units as I could with my one or two final units as long as I could, but that only lasted a year. This was why I jumped out of my last SC into the Black Sea, so that I would threaten five SCs with a single unit. I should have broadcast my intentions to I & G, but a last minute visit from my family and then a trip to the in-laws for the holidays distracted me enough that I even missed my final deadline.

Anyway, I had a lot of fun, and I enjoyed cooperating with Austria, even though to observers it may have looked like he was leading a lamb to the slaughter. It ended up being a very quick game, by Diplomacy standards.
posted by ewagoner at 9:09 AM on December 30, 2008


Well, it's good to hear I didn't have much of a chance anyways.

Cortex, if you wish to apologize for being the reason for poor Sumru's death, I suggest you do so through song:

No moves today
Or build updates
No promises of support to your fleet in Norway
No moves in Spring
For you, I think
In fact it looks like you're about to go away
Bounced from Ukraine
And Moscow too
I'll roll up the rest of your supply centers soon
But what this is
Is something true
Made up these three words that I must say to you:

I just called to say I stabbed you
I just called to say you should beware
I just called to say I stabbed you
And you'll know it from the dagger in your heart

Don't even try
To get allies
They will delete your cries for help 'gainst me on sight
No forlorn hope
Will cut the rope
Or slacken the noose that's wound tight about your neck
Don't call the Hun
Or English King
Because they will soon be joining you next Spring
But what it is
Though old so new
To stab your back like no three words could ever do.

I just called to say I stabbed you
I just called to say you should beware
I just called to say I stabbed you
And you'll know it from the dagger in your heart

I just called to say I stabbed you
I just called to say you should beware
I just called to say I stabbed you
And you'll know it from the dagger in your heart

In your heart
In your heart

posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:22 AM on December 30, 2008 [5 favorites]


arimathea, I thought you played well, and I'm surprised it was your first time. You made some moves that made me think "Oh shit, this guy knows what he's doing, I'd better be wary."

In fact, when Germany bounced me out of Sweden that first fall, my fate was largely sealed (Germany had agreed to let me in there, and I was hoping to set up a unified front to contain England)

In looking back on the game, that was my biggest mistake - I should have let you take Sweden. But I was more concerned with a strong Russia than I was a one-on-one fight with England, so I changed my orders at the last minute.
posted by cmonkey at 9:38 AM on December 30, 2008


In looking back on the game, that was my biggest mistake - I should have let you take Sweden.

Well, to be fair, in an A-R alliance, after Turkey, Germany is the traditional next target. So don't feel too bad.
posted by ewagoner at 9:45 AM on December 30, 2008


Bravo to all, especially cortex for the epic win. I likely wouldn't have been able to single out specific players if I didn't have access to the roster...I haven't been here long enough, I guess.

I'd of course love to see a norm2 at some point. I'll probably start a fresh thread on MeTa, because this one's getting, erm, hefty. Also, there are many people who put themselves in a waiting queue for ez3 and then crapped out when their moment of duty came, so a fresh queue would be best.

As I mentioned earlier, I'd also enjoy seeing a game on a larger scale, like Chaos or Youngstown.
posted by spamguy at 9:47 AM on December 30, 2008


Well, at least I wasn't first out. I pretty much sucked though and was really outclassed in the norm level of play. I seem to remember being pretty good years ago but I'm really rusty on the strategies and even screwed up on some of the rules. For instance, I totally forgot about having to specify which coast to move your fleet to and couldn't get my move from MAO -> POR to be accepted by the system. So stupidly, instead of figuring out the right syntax, I punted and moved elsewhere.

For the most part, I failed miserably to get anyone to align with me and ended up fighting on my own for most of the game. I was away from the internet right at the beginning of the game due to traveling for the holidays for a while and lost some diplomatic momentum that I assume the other players took advantage of.

I've only played the game in person, not through these new-fangled intertubes, and was surprised by the Edwardian role playing that you all did to one degree or another. It was fun once I got into the spirit of it. I did figure out who was Cortex pretty early on though.
posted by octothorpe at 11:28 AM on December 30, 2008


Here is my full EOG report. If you were curious whether I was lying to you when or why, it's probably in there.

Agreed that a new post for the new year and kicking things off for a second round of queuing is probably a good plan. Maybe we can start doing a little bit of informal off-site organizing at that point too, put together a roster of interested players.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:51 AM on December 30, 2008


As I mentioned earlier, I'd also enjoy seeing a game on a larger scale, like Chaos or Youngstown.

Me too. Is there any way to do a partial game of Chaos if there aren't 34 people ready to play?
posted by burnmp3s at 12:27 PM on December 30, 2008


Nice report, cortex. I added a comment about another press mis-send you apparently didn't notice that tipped your hand about your stab a year ahead of time. I tried to talk you out of it while scrambling for better footing in the north to head you off or at least slow you down. But even with a year's notice, I just couldn't do much about it :)
posted by ewagoner at 12:29 PM on December 30, 2008


Yeah, ouch. I had no idea. Heh.

The funny thing is, I wasn't all that committed to stabbing you at that point—as much as anything I was trying to get Germany to tell me what he was up to, and making a point of not liking Russia was a sound framing in which to place such a prod.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:42 PM on December 30, 2008


wow, EOG reports are fantastic. I'll definitely be doing one of those for my EZ (though it'll just make it obvious how incompetent I am)
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 1:14 PM on December 30, 2008


I'm up for chaos.
posted by schyler523 at 1:22 PM on December 30, 2008


I could be up for another go around, but given the tearful "I doan wanna pway no mo!" email I sent spamguy, I should be far down the ez list.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:03 PM on December 30, 2008


I Just Called To Say I'll Stab You
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:45 PM on December 30, 2008


The coolest thing about Diplomacy games played in person is that EOG analyses go on well past the game's end. Weeks and months after a game, I still had player-friends commenting on what they should've done, or expressing resentment at a stab.

Maybe I could whip up a quick PHP-MySQL thingy for the next wave of games. It would be good to know that there would be ongoing interest in future Dip games before going that far.

Also, holy crap, cortex.
posted by spamguy at 3:27 PM on December 30, 2008


Awesome. If this starts a precedent that last player standing must perform for the first out, then I'm all for it.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:25 PM on December 30, 2008


I'm up for Chaos, too. I can try and recruit people, too, if bringing in non-MeFites to pad out the ranks is OK. I'd love to see some kind of MePlomacy wiki or forum spring up so we can more centrally organize this thing. I am really having fun with this -- it was always hell to try and get 7 Diplo-minded people together in person that I think I only played one or two games back in HS/college. Thanks, spamguy!
posted by Rock Steady at 4:30 PM on December 30, 2008


For those of us waiting, Feel free to join me for practice on phpDiplomacy. I set up a game called MetafilterUnofficial, with a password of mefidip (or this link should work to join it)

It's a lot less fullfeatured than what the official ones are using, but it seems as good a way to get the feel for the game as any, and I can't be the only impatient one.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 5:51 PM on December 30, 2008


just joined MetafilterUnofficial since there were plenty of spots left, but I'll gladly drop out if anyone else wants in since I'm currently in ez2 as well.
posted by xbonesgt at 11:38 AM on December 31, 2008


Does anyone want to join in ez3? The caveat is, you have to be England -- the person leaving the spot admitted he found ez3 on USDP's 'Forming Games' list, and not through MeFi. The good news is that there has literally been no correspondence in this game, so the game is basically virgin.

First, check that the spot hasn't been taken.
Then send this to the judge:

TAKEOVER E@ez3_mefi [choose a password] wendell
SIGNOFF
posted by spamguy at 10:57 PM on December 31, 2008


Erm, check that the spot hasn't been taken.
posted by spamguy at 10:57 PM on December 31, 2008


Well, That phpdip one I set up failed - insufficient people I guess. So that link above can be disrgarded. Thanks to the two who did join though :-)
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 6:23 PM on January 1, 2009


Damn, now ez3 needs to replace England and Russia?

I'd sign up for one of them but I think a 72 hour deadline would drive me crazy.
posted by cmonkey at 6:12 AM on January 2, 2009


Even though it saved my bacon once before, I'm kind of getting peeved at the deadlines for entering orders that aren't really deadlines.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:04 AM on January 2, 2009


Yeah, England in ez1 needs to step up and do something...
posted by schyler523 at 8:16 AM on January 2, 2009


Still waiting for a Russia in ez3... Who doesn't want to be a Czar for a little while?
posted by Rock Steady at 7:25 AM on January 4, 2009


I'll take over Russia in ex3 if no one else is interested.
posted by octothorpe at 7:53 AM on January 4, 2009


Don't let on if you sign up, octo -- our Diplo identities are supposed to be sekrit, to prevent... Well, I'm not sure what it is supposed to prevent, actually, but that's apparently how it's done.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:58 AM on January 4, 2009


With the late join of people into ez3, I wonder if the first deadline can be pushed a few days to allow for, well, diplomacy?
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 11:06 AM on January 4, 2009


We've got until 3 on Wednesday, that should be plenty for people who don't know what they are doing.
posted by Mitheral at 7:18 PM on January 4, 2009


The deadline for the first orders is Monday 5 January 2009 23:20 CST.

You sure???
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:50 PM on January 5, 2009


I guess that has been superseded by the wed? Happy to hear it if so.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:51 PM on January 5, 2009


Why do they have deadlines if they don't really matter?
posted by empath at 3:29 PM on January 5, 2009


There's an optional CIVIL DISORDER flag you can set at game creation time that will force over-deadline powers to autosubmit hold moves (and a SMART CD flag that makes those hold moves turn into supports where possible), which is one way to deal with the deadline issue as a hard limit.

I don't know if those can be set after the game is in progress, though. Guessing no.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:34 PM on January 5, 2009


Nope, you can do it mid stream, i just changed it in a game i'm mastering.
posted by empath at 4:52 PM on January 5, 2009


Awesome.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:57 PM on January 5, 2009


I wasn't sure if that was a good solution, but I'm thinking it would be ideal for our group now. I'm willing to be a little soft for a few days in case England is on vacation, but then I'm setting SMART_CD.
posted by spamguy at 5:58 PM on January 5, 2009


Don't forget EZ2!

*glares at Austria*
posted by empath at 6:17 PM on January 5, 2009


Can we get someone to do something about EZ2? We're stuck.
posted by empath at 12:51 PM on January 6, 2009


Austria seems to be a hard luck country. They missed our deadline too, even though it's 72 FUCKING HOURS.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 1:22 PM on January 7, 2009


Congratulations to Austria in Normal. That's actually the first time I've seen Austria come out on top.
posted by darksofa at 9:07 AM on January 10, 2009


As penance for that victory, I'm getting pushed around as Russia in a game with some friends now. There is no justice!
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:50 AM on January 10, 2009


Actually, if you're now getting pushed around instead of pushing... would that not *be* justice? You know, for everyone else?
posted by darksofa at 12:28 AM on January 11, 2009


Not when I'm clearly the last best hope for pre-WWI European unification. Why can't they understand?!
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:42 AM on January 11, 2009


So more than half of the players in ez3 missed our deadline. If you folks don't want to play, why sign up? I honestly would have preferred that the total lack of response to any of my press was a vile conspiracy rather than apathy.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 1:43 PM on January 12, 2009


Man, looking at the other games right now: ez1 is just about the nuttiest thing I have ever seen. A lot of forward play there. Italians trouping around in Germany is a fun sight, but four different powers with fleets in England is just amazing. I need to go read back a few turns on that and see what the hell is going on.

ez2 looking great for Russia/Turkey—I'm busy getting pummeled by players hollering Juggernaut! at each other in my own game, so I'm going to enjoy yours vicariously if you don't mind. Love that flying-V action last turn, Russia. I hope Italy knows something I don't, because that move to looks like a big Take My SCs, Please! to Turkey from here.

Sorry to hear ez3 is getting off to such a rocky start. Hope folks get their poop together.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:25 PM on January 12, 2009


So more than half of the players in ez3 missed our deadline. If you folks don't want to play, why sign up? I honestly would have preferred that the total lack of response to any of my press was a vile conspiracy rather than apathy.

<Newmar> Ha! Our plan to mislead you is working purrrrrrfectly. </Newmar>
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 3:01 PM on January 12, 2009


So more than half of the players in ez3 missed our deadline. If you folks don't want to play, why sign up?

ez3 is for beginners. Sometimes it's a little difficult to figure out how to interact with the DPJudge interface, and then figure out how to create valid orders. Also, DPJudge lists all deadlines for CST or whatever (I'm in the Pacific time zone). It can be a little confusing, especially if you're playing while at work.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:09 AM on January 13, 2009


ez1 is gonna be going on for a looooooooong time. I'm just glad world history didn't reflect this game. Grab your popcorn.

DPJudge lists all deadlines for CST

If I had left it in default, times woulda been in GMT. You're welcome.
posted by spamguy at 1:52 PM on January 13, 2009


Thank you. It wasn't meant as a criticism, BTW.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:29 PM on January 13, 2009


Sorry for bitching, everybody. I'm just antsy about my eminent demise...
posted by solipsophistocracy at 11:02 AM on January 14, 2009


ez1 is gonna be going on for a looooooooong time

Not if my secret plot comes to fruition!
And cortex, if you do figure out what's going on in ez1, lemme know, because I'm pretty confused as to what I should be doing.
posted by Lemurrhea at 1:01 PM on January 14, 2009


I've created a MeFi wiki page for Diplomacy. It is largely content-free at this point, but it lists the current games and the people who have expressed interest in playing. Please add to it - I specifically think some simple instructions about signing up for DP Judge games would be useful to have there.

Happy stabbing!
posted by Rock Steady at 8:42 PM on January 18, 2009


Italy is super-duper late in ez3.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:23 PM on January 19, 2009


Ez3 does seem to have a consistent lateness issue.
posted by octothorpe at 11:36 AM on January 23, 2009


EZ2 got real interesting the last couple of seasons.
posted by empath at 3:39 PM on February 2, 2009


On EZ3 I think part of the problem is it's too drawn out. I needed to do one move in the last week, hard to keep it in mind.

Also is there any way to skip a turn, fill out an all hold or send orders in advance? I'm going to be away from net access for a week and I don't want to hold the game up.
posted by Mitheral at 4:12 PM on February 2, 2009


EZ2 got real interesting the last couple of seasons.

Hey, yeah it did. Too soon though? It's going to be tricky for Turkey to get those last few SCs with the rest of the world allied against it.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:48 PM on February 2, 2009


Also is there any way to skip a turn, fill out an all hold or send orders in advance?

I bet you can contact spamguy about that.

I agree that ez3 is moving way too slowly. Maybe we can get a consensus to make the deadline shorter, if that's possible.

Also, does anyone know how to import the results to jDip? I can't seem to import the game from floc.net.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 6:11 PM on February 2, 2009


Maybe we can get a consensus to make the deadline shorter, if that's possible.

Also, does anyone know how to import the results to jDip? I can't seem to import the game from floc.net.


I don't have a problem with a shorter deadline, personally. I'm not sure what the problem is with jDip. ez1 and ez2 work fine. Norm-mefi was having the same problem though. Don't know if they ever resolved it.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:55 PM on February 2, 2009


I think EZ2 is shaping up to be a 4-way draw :(
posted by empath at 8:47 PM on February 12, 2009


Ez2 is officially a four way draw now. (or at least will be, once everyone sets their goal to it, I guess)

Anybody want to talk about how the game went? :)

I was France.
posted by empath at 8:25 AM on February 17, 2009


I thought I was doomed until Turkey backstabbed Russia (I don't know if my prodding was what pushed him to do it, or whether he was going to do it anyway.)
posted by empath at 8:27 AM on February 17, 2009


I (Italy) thought I was doomed long, long ago (and I deserved to be wiped off the map, since I messed up more than once due to a poor understanding of the rules). As luck would have it, France seemed to need me around to bulk up his numbers (and his stabbing attempt was aborted), so I managed to hang on, doing little of anything, to the bitter end.
posted by ssg at 8:38 AM on February 17, 2009


My stabbing attempt was aborted because Austria abandoned the game :(
posted by empath at 8:42 AM on February 17, 2009


I was Russia. First time player. Definitely an interesting game. I thought Turkey and I were going to be able to run the table for a 2 way draw. Alas, he had other ambitions. :)

Thanks to empath (france) for guidance and assistance, since I was a total noob.

(btw: that bounce between England and Germany into STP in Fall 03... that was orchestrated )
posted by jeversol at 8:43 AM on February 17, 2009


I didn't actually really need you around, btw, but I was busy trying to take out England and couldn't spare the armies. I had been planning on killing you as soon as convenient, but it just never was.
posted by empath at 8:43 AM on February 17, 2009


jeversol -- I thought you were heading to a two way draw, or a solo Russia win, which was why I told Turkey that he should probably attack you. :) I'm curious to know whether he as going to do it anyway, though.
posted by empath at 8:45 AM on February 17, 2009


It would be great to take some of the post-game discussion to the wiki Diplo page for future reference. EZ1 seems to be approaching endgame as well, so perhaps we should try and set up another new game or two once it ends. I'd love to see one of the variant games set up. There was some discussion about Chaos above...
posted by Rock Steady at 8:53 AM on February 17, 2009


howdy guys, Turkey here. I thought I had it in the bag until Russia put an army in STP to reinforce MOS (I miscounted the number of supply centers you held - d'oh!), and again until France didn't reinforce MUN the last turn of the game.

jeversol, I felt really bad about stabbing you, but France and Germany helped convince me to give it a try. Didn't quite turn out like I was hoping though!

So, uh, did you all think I was a bastard the last few years of the game and stop sending me press altogether, or was there just a general slowdown in communication?
posted by xbonesgt at 8:54 AM on February 17, 2009


After you stabbed Russia, the game was Let's All Stop Turkey From Getting 18 Supply Centers.

I was terrified that you were going to talk Italy into handing you Marseilles, honestly.
posted by empath at 9:00 AM on February 17, 2009


If Germany is reading this thread, I was sincerely hoping to ally with Germany, but it seemed like he couldn't make up his mind what he wanted to do. I really wanted to go all out with an attack on England from the beginning, but Germany kept moving against Russia in the north, instead of against England. So I was in a stalemate vs England, and Germany was getting steamrolled by Russia. I couldn't do anything to help Germany vs Russia, who was free to concentrate 100% of his power on Germany. And with Austria AFK, Turkey was also advancing unopposed.

And then Italy's frantic run westward totally screwed my chances of actually winning the game, after that I was just playing for a draw.

My only hope was that I could get Turkey and Russia fighting so Russia would be forced to ally with me rather than steam roll through germany and england for a victory, which is where I think things were going before Turkey's stab.
posted by empath at 9:08 AM on February 17, 2009


Once you (Turkey) stabbed me, I sent a press asking, basically "wtf." You didn't respond... There was no point in talking to you after that. :) France and I discussed a lot after the stab in an attempt to keep you from getting 18. I don't think I ever communicated with Austria or Italy.
posted by jeversol at 9:21 AM on February 17, 2009


After you stabbed Russia, the game was Let's All Stop Turkey From Getting 18 Supply Centers.

Kudos on y'all getting that together. I just skimmed through the last few years and I was pretty much writing the game off as Turkey's by '08.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:30 AM on February 17, 2009


I had allied with Russia before the first turn was submitted; I think the agreement was Russia would get the Black Sea and Rumania in exchange for Bulgaria, a non-aggression pact, and some help against Austria. I thought Italy and Austria were allies until Italy tried an end-around and attempted to capture Greece in Fall 1901. Not quite knowing what was going on, I figured I'd concentrate on Austria for the time being. I tried to turn Italy against Austria, and there was some press that went back and forth which I enjoyed, but to no avail. With some luck, and some Russian aid, I was able to pick up the Austrian supply centers and keep expanding westward.

After capturing the Italian peninsula, I was in pretty good shape and thinking about where to go next; Russia looked overextended directly to my north, and after a little urging from France and Germany I decided to go for it. I was hoping Germany could hold on for a few more turns since between the two of us we could've taken out a lot of Russia's ground forces in central Europe, but it didn't work out. I didn't know where to go next; I should've gone after France, but I thought he was fighting Russia and Italy (I held off attacking the Italian units in Spain and Portugal due to some of his press!) and was only going to ally with Russia if I attacked Marseilles. Then French reinforcements helped Russia hold onto Munich, and I figured that was that.
posted by xbonesgt at 9:43 AM on February 17, 2009


I was stunned when you didn't build 2 fleets on your last build. You definitely could have pulled off a win if you had attacked me right away. I wasn't ready for it at all.
posted by empath at 10:03 AM on February 17, 2009


Is it possible in DP Judge games to declare a joint victory? I seem to remember in the few live games I have played that two or more powers with +18 SCs amongst them could agree to a joint victory, even if there were other active players remaining.
posted by Rock Steady at 11:52 AM on February 17, 2009


Rock Steady: That's a variant. The official Diplomacy rule, as printed, is that all surviving players share equally in a draw. The idea is that a player who has only one or a few centers late in the game still has a specific, achievable goal of his own, whereas in many other games a player far behind near the end of the game has no chance of winning and is reduced to playing kingmaker, at best.

There is an option on Judge games ("NoDIAS," where DIAS=Draw Includes All Survivors) to allows draws which do not necessarily include all surviving players, but even then all surviving players must agree to the draw; a subset of players cannot impose such a draw against the will of other players, regardless of the number of centers they control. See pp. 33-35 and p. 48 of the Diplomacy Judge User's Manual. Although it's not achievable on the judge by technological means alone, you could do it by social means, i.e., NoDIAS + mutual agreement of all players to play that way.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:43 PM on February 17, 2009


Hey, good game, everyone. And thanks to spamguy for setting it up.

I was England. I can't think of anything interesting to say, though; I was pretty much just trying not to get killed. I was pretty sure France and Germany were both after me, which is why I helped Russia against Germany--figured my only hope was to get Russia to invade Germany by land. I wish I'd let Germany take St. Petersburg, though; I didn't realize that Russia and Turkey were allied until after that turn...

BTW, France, I totally would've gone along with a truce if you'd sent your second fleet to Italy.
posted by equalpants at 6:31 PM on February 17, 2009


I never would have gone along with a truce. I had to pick a target at the beginning, and Germany seemed like a slightly better ally for me. I honestly probably made the wrong choice. Most of the game I was encouraging Russia to attack both you and Germany, while encouraging Germany to attack you and ignore Russia. Germany kept ignoring England and attacking Russia, which was endlessly frustrating for me.

Actually I spent most of the game encouraging everyone to attack everyone else other than me, now that I think about it. I was encouraging Austria to attack Italy, and Russia and Turkey to attack each other for most of the game, too.

Also, that english army wandering around the continent for a few years basically ruined any chance of Germany and I getting anything accomplished, though the knife was basically put in by Italy retreating from the Turkish horde through my unguarded south, which completely took me by surprise. I'd have prefered that he stay in Italy, I'd even have backed him up, had he asked.
posted by empath at 7:26 PM on February 17, 2009


empath, I certainly would have stayed in Italy had I been thinking a little more clearly. You had just tried to wipe me out though, so I wasn't too eager to rely on you at that point.
posted by ssg at 8:16 PM on February 17, 2009


Quick question for anyone who's done some mastering.

The game I'm mastering has reached the deadline and everyone has submitted orders. However, it hasn't, so far, resolved the orders though it says the expected:

"All Orders Have Now Been Submitted
-- Processing Will Occur Soon --
Make Any Changes Now"

But it's said that for 3 days now. The game state is currently 'Waiting'. I don't want to mess with it because it says it's processing, but the delay seems odd. Should I set the state to 'Active' and hope for the best?
posted by darksofa at 9:24 PM on February 26, 2009


Well, ez1 is over and I (Germany) won. Apologies to England (pravit) for stabbing you early in the game. You had a pact with France (Alvy Ampersand) to stay out of the English Channel and that was enough to convince me not to let you onto the mainland. Other than that, I played it pretty much the opposite of cortex's Machiavellian style; nearly all of the press I sent was pretty straight-forward with a minimum of subterfuge.

Also, thanks Russia (Lemurrhea) for helping me out for almost the entire game. Considering all of my other diplomatic efforts failed horribly, I literally couldn't have won without you. And thanks to spamguy for setting the whole thing up. It was my first time playing and I had a good time plotting my schemes to take over Europe for the last few months.
posted by burnmp3s at 4:16 PM on March 10, 2009


nearly all of the press I sent was pretty straight-forward with a minimum of subterfuge.

As fun as it is to lie through one's teeth and get away with it, that's really the smarter bet in general, I think. Be compelling and wherever possible honest and you will reduce significantly the number of reasons for someone to arbitrary get stabby or ignore you.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:25 PM on March 10, 2009


Yeah, gg EZ1ers. I was Italy, and I really enjoyed the game. As you may have noticed, I kind of played up the role-playing aspect (I was particularly proud of my "I, for one, welcome our new German overlords" final message to Austria) which gave me more pleasure than it probably should have. I thought Austria and I worked really well together (until his mini-stab of '09), and if it wasn't for that mini-stab and France's laying down for Russia's naval incursion into the Mediterranean, I think we could have held the barbarians off.

Anyone up for another game? Chaos?
posted by Rock Steady at 6:41 PM on March 10, 2009


LAYING DOWN?! EXCUSEZ MOI FOR NEEDING UN PETIT PEUT SUPPORT!!!

Thanks for the game, guys, and apologies for my occasional engaging in ethnic stereotypes in the correspondence and my drop in communication after the seventh week or so.

Rock Steady, your letters were awesome and worth the price of admission, if there had been one. burnmp3s, how did you know it was me?!?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:02 PM on March 10, 2009


burnmp3s, how did you know it was me?!?

The game summary page on DPJudge lists who everyone was.
posted by burnmp3s at 4:02 AM on March 11, 2009


Oh.

*Less creeped out, but slightly disappointed*
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:20 AM on March 11, 2009


By the way, get some rest Alvy. You look tired.

* lowers sniper rifle *
posted by burnmp3s at 8:41 AM on March 11, 2009 [3 favorites]


Rock Steady, your letters were awesome and worth the price of admission, if there had been one.

Hey, thanks for saying that. It was fun. I'm playing another game now and I'm not really in character, and it's kind of boring. I was just going through my correspondence for the game, and I was reminded of a subplot I was trying to establish early, but let die out as the action intensified. I was trying to imply that the Italian Prime Minister was having torrid affairs with all the wives of the various heads of state. It was going to allow me to justify whatever offensive actions I might need to take during the course of the game. Oh well, maybe next time.
posted by Rock Steady at 3:34 PM on March 11, 2009


I've created a wiki page for EZ_1 and added a EOG, with a selection of my press.
posted by Rock Steady at 4:35 PM on March 11, 2009


I can't understand why anyone would play this game gunboat. Where's the fun in that?
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 9:31 PM on March 12, 2009


I was Austria. I had quite a bit of fun. There were some accidental stabs due to mis-communication and unfamiliarity with the game, and for those I apologize.

I liked the press that I sent to all where I screwed up the our overlords line...

I wouldn't mind playing another.
posted by schyler523 at 7:35 AM on March 13, 2009


Anyone up for another game? Chaos?

I'd love that - but would we have enough people?
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 11:28 AM on March 13, 2009


So...anyone up for another Normal game?
posted by cmonkey at 3:32 PM on March 15, 2009


I'm up for another normal or ez game. Maybe we should start a new thread to announce it?
posted by empath at 5:06 PM on March 15, 2009


I'll in for another game, hopefully ez. I still suck but I'm having fun anyway.
posted by octothorpe at 6:13 AM on March 23, 2009


I added some line charts to the wiki for the completed games, and one for the one in progress.

Cause I'm unemployed now and bored.

Norm_mefi
ez1_mefi
ez2_mefi
ez3_mefi
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 5:13 PM on March 30, 2009


Nice! That's totally slick.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:22 PM on March 30, 2009


Why did the order submission time for ez3 get bumped up to 5PM? The "You didn't submit orders yet!" message totally caught me off guard at work on Friday.
posted by pravit at 12:53 PM on April 4, 2009


My guess is one time we didn't make it wait til time ran out and that skewed the whole thing. I wonder, and hope, if that can be overridden to lock it into the way it was before. I think three of the five of us missed the window.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 4:04 PM on April 4, 2009


I'm going to miss today's deadline because I don't have email or dpjudge access at work. Is there anyway to get it moved back?
posted by octothorpe at 11:05 AM on April 6, 2009


Err, I don't necessarily mean today's deadline. I knew about it and should have posted my order before I went to work but can we change it for future moves? Or are we stuck with it now?
posted by octothorpe at 2:29 PM on April 6, 2009


I didn't realize this is where you hung out to get into the next game. I thought linking myself on the wiki would have been enough.

...waits
posted by rakish_yet_centered at 3:51 PM on April 7, 2009


You may not have missed any, rakish. There hasn't been a new one started in a bit. I suspect that a new round will start once ez3 ends? I suppose no reason it needs to wait til then, but, well, I'm IN ez3, for now at least, so maybe that's just wishful thinking :-)
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 7:27 AM on April 8, 2009


I'm up for a new game too. I would suggest that someone should do a new MetaTalk post to get people's attention and drum up some interest. This one is going to be locked pretty soon due to the six month meetup thread limit anyway.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:15 AM on April 8, 2009


Yeah, I was just saying that in another thread. Could be fun :-)
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 10:22 AM on April 8, 2009


EZ3 is over! I was Turkey. Great game everybody, and congratulations to Germany.
posted by pravit at 10:06 PM on April 23, 2009


Good job Germany. I was Russia and I'm not sure what the hell I was thinking on some of my moves. I probably need to keep notes in future games so that I can keep a more consistant strategy going.
posted by octothorpe at 5:10 AM on April 24, 2009


I was England in EZ3 and was quite enjoying it until I was stabbed by Germany. I guess since the Kaiser won it was the right thing to do, but at the time it seemed awfully premature. I thought it wouldn't get him enough SCs to win, and would tighten the resolve of the remaining nations against him. Oh well.

With all of the original series of games (EZ1-3 and NORM1) ended and this thread getting close to closure, we really do need a new MeTa post to keep our momentum going.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:13 AM on April 24, 2009


I'm definitely up for a new game.
posted by octothorpe at 5:34 AM on April 24, 2009


ez3_Mefi just ended, and it was, frankly, teh awesome. I played as Germany, and while I "won," at the very end Italy and I were working together so closely, I'd really consider it FAR more accurate to say Italy and Germany won.

I really hope all players do an after-action-report and put it on the wiki.

Here's the first part of mine. I should have taken notes on the way, so I'll try to remember what I was thinking early on. Also, the nature of the game makes these time breakdowns a bit flexible, but it should be about rightish if you see it as a loose timeline and not a strict one.

PDF map to follow along.

Pre-Game

I wasn't part of the initial selections, but was slotted in as Germany before the game started. At this point, my vague plan was mainly to work with Austria, as my reading said that was pretty standard for Germany to do, but I didn't really have an "enemy" yet. Most of the other players seemed to write "in character," with my favorite at this point being from England: "You see, HRH has a inordinate fondness for waffles, and would love to get a foothold in Belgium. Of course, this advance into the low countries would be no threat to your glorious nation, but it would serve me well if the French get a bit stroppy (as I suspect they will)." Russia told me that she wanted my help in attacking Austria. I told Russia I would not help at this time, but that if Russia DID move, I wold ignore it if I had Scandanavia. I then told Austria about Russia's plans. I was hoping that hoping Austria would then move in a way so as to keep Russia from trying, so I could keep working with both.

Towards the end of pregame though, I began to worry. I hadn't yet heard anything concrete from Austria, and Italy referred to Austria having unspecified war plans. I still don't know how legit that was, but it did make me wary.

Spring 01ish

Austria's moves, and communiques made me feel better. England and I began to coordinate on moves more closely, with him offering to help me take Sweden later if I helped him into Belgium. I wasn't sure if I would want Sweden that way, but I agreed so he owed me a favor.

Austria forwarded me a mail from Italy (which could have been faked, but I doubt it), in which Italy asked to move into Tyrolia to attack me if I kept moving north. Austria replied to Italy saying no, and rather tersely. I remember thinking that replying that way might make Austria Italy's next target.

Fall 1901ish

There wasn't a lot of intrigue in this turn, but I remember looking at the board and thinking that Austria was making a mistake by going into both Italy and heading way way south towards Greece, leaving Budapest wide open, as Russia was clearly coming into it. France looked somewhat vulnerable, as England was making inroads, which turned out to be correct, but I also should note that at this point I was sure Turkey was in serious trouble. While he had as many supply centers as anyone else, it just looked to me like Russia and Austria were putting him on the back burner. That turned out to be spectacularly wrong, and even now looking at the board I see it wasn't nearly as dire as I thought at the time. This thinking didn't really affect any of my moves, as Turkey was too far away to really worry about, but still.

Spring 1902ish

In ths turn, I don't think I did much other than to move into Burgandy.

fall 1902-fall 1903ish

Around here was interesting, and around where my midgame strategy really came together in my head. A few things going on. I'll start in the West, where Russia began seriously moving in to my turf and to Austria's, concerning me greatly. I asked Russia to explain herself, and I messaged Austria with "I see we have a Russia problem. Thoughts?". Austria replied with "Well, I have an Italy + Russia + Turkey problem. Italy had originally wanted to march into Munich, and I said no, so here we are. Turkey and Russia, after scrapping a little, seem to be cooperating to remove me from the game. I'm not sure if there is an easy answer to your problems at this point, and I'm pretty sure I will be out of the game soon." After that mail I realized that a full out coordinated counter attack would be no good, and when Russia replied, with "My deepest apologies, I have no interest in your empire, I'm just trying to apply leverage to the Austrian Empire.  We owe you one, we should have asked for permission first." I was much relieved, though, of course, I couldn't just take his word for it, but I was able to convince him to give me Sweden, if he took Norway. He agreed, probably because he knew he'd bounce with England -- but I knew he wouldn't, as England had told me it would be left open. Arguably, I didn't need Russia's approval here at all, but I figured that, with his permission, it wouldn't be seen as an invasion which would buy me more time.

Meanwhile, let's go back to the west. England and I arranged to split France, where I got BEL, PAR, and MARS, and he got BRE, POR, SPA. What's amusing as hell to me now, is I realize, I agreed to this plan, and never did take Paris from England once it was his. I could easily have told England "so I'll just slide into Paris as agreed", but it just never occurred to me. I wonder if England realized I just forgot that part of the arrangement. If so, smart move just not mentioning it again. France asked me to coordinate against England, and I asked for more information, though I had little intent to do so. This was one of my favorite moments, where I arranged with England to push him out of Belgium, making it look as though I was on France's side. England was a bit wary of my intents (for once, they were sincere), but agreed. The cool part was when immediately after, France asked me to invade Belgium to prove I was on his side. I giggled.

Fall 1903ish

Yeah, these time stamps are totally arbitrary. So that strategy I came up with was essentially to simply grow by helping everyone else around me. The strategy was, essentially - If I help England get, say, 2 SCs, he'll help ME get 2 SCs. If I then help, say, Russia get 2, Russia will help me get 2. And at the end of that, I'm up 4, and did it without betraying or misleading anyone. Making them trust me and owe me one. The problem there is when England and Russia get into conflict. England now asked me to support him into Norway, and really, there was no way I could agree to that, particularly with Russia still deep in my territory, and Austria down to a shell. It would be way too easy for Russia to just turn and crush me. England replied with asking me to cut MAR's support instead then, which I agreed with, and told me that he thought I could negotiate with Russia for Scandanavia by helping him against Austria and Italy. Around then, Russia asked me for an alliance against Italy and Turkey, to which I sort of quasi-agreed, by pointing out that I was concerned to head south with Russia still north. I knew Russia would disagree with moving out of there, but it gave me an excuse to not fully support his plans.

To be continued....
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:22 AM on April 24, 2009


I was England in EZ3 and was quite enjoying it until I was stabbed by Germany. I guess since the Kaiser won it was the right thing to do, but at the time it seemed awfully premature. I thought it wouldn't get him enough SCs to win, and would tighten the resolve of the remaining nations against him. Oh well.

I didn't get up to that point in my review of my notes and maps, but I think it was one of those points where, basically, my forces where in the right place to go in, and yours weren't in the right place to defend, and pretty much, I need to go SOMEWHERE, and while I didn't really want to screw you, Italy and Turkey were occupied with each other, and getting in the middle of that just seemed like it would be far less lucrative, especially since I'd constantly be afraid of committing south with you at my back.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:26 AM on April 24, 2009


oh, and before I get caught in minutiae and forget, I really had a lot of fun too and can't wait to do it again
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:27 AM on April 24, 2009


Well I was playing France and it should be obvious I had no clue what I was doing. Not only that I was away from the internet for a couple weeks shortly after the game finally got started which made executing a coherent stratagy difficult. I couldn't seem to get forces to reinforce each other properly so the battles went poorly.
posted by Mitheral at 9:19 AM on April 24, 2009


Oh, man. I just got back from out of town to discover I missed the end of the game. I was Italy. It's gracious of Germany to say we won it together, but that's not really true.

I tried to get a vicious stab against Germany together, having wormed my way into his good graces, but to no avail.

I had a great time, and would definitely play again, but the 72 hour deadlines were killer. It'd definitely be better to move every day at a regular time.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 9:37 AM on April 24, 2009


It'd definitely be better to move every day at a regular time.

Yeah, the normal game had shorter rounds and that seems better. It was nice to have some extra time at the beginning of the game when nobody knew what they were doing and there was a lot of press going back and forth, but by the end of ez1 everyone was mostly just sitting around waiting for the deadline for most of the time.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:47 AM on April 24, 2009


Here's my AAR:

As Turkey, you begin isolated in the lower-right corner of the map. I felt I had a risk of getting stuck in the corner and overrun if I didn't expand aggressively enough early on. As your only neighbors Austria and Russia are your obvious expansion targets, I felt that diplomacy would be somewhat useless, especially since there aren't many opportunities to help one against the other early on.

I have to admit that I ignored the goings-on in the rest of Europe for most of the game - I barely noticed when France and then England got taken out!

Standard opening for Turkey. Thankfully, Russia did not bounce with me in BLA, allowing me to push him out of BUL later. Seeing that I would be encircled by Austria if I attempted to move into SER, I made Austria the offer of uncontested movement into SER if he would let me have GRE. It was a long shot, but surprisingly, he accepted! Austria may have wanted to consolidate his forces, but in my opinion his position in GRE was definitely tenable. This rearrangement of forces allowed me to push him out of SER, and a convenient landing by Italy removed Austrian forces from the Balkans altogether.

The Italian fleet in ALB was an annoying thorn in my side, but I ignored it for the time being since there isn't any centre there and I regarded his position in the Balkans as somewhat weak anyway. My next expansion target was Russia. I attempted to move into SEV with my army in ARM, using the fleet in RUM as support. Looking back, this was a major mistake; I should have moved in with RUM and supported with ARM to avoid getting my support cut.

In Spring 1905, I felt that I wasn't able to make any more progress in the Balkans and decided to rearrange my forces, sending my fleets to the Mediterranean and moving my armies into the front lines instead. This cost me a lot of time, but I was able to take NAP and TUN. At the same time Russia was forced to remove a lot of its forces, allowing me back into BLA and finally into SEV.

At this point (Fall 1909) Germany and I agreed to start bouncing each other MOS - SEV to give the appearance that we were fighting. Since Italy was allied with Germany and I had little contact with England and Russia's lone remaining army, I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of this was, but I was in no position to take on Germany at the time anyway. We agreed to keep UKR as a DMZ, which probably benefited me much more than Germany.

Around this point, there was talk between me, England and Italy of cooperation against Germany, but nothing ever came through. I wasn't about to give up my new Italian centres, especially after losing Serbia, and England was too far away for me to coordinate anything with. Looking at the moves now, I guess Italy and England weren't able to work any anti-German alliance out either.

Fall 1909 brought an unexpected Italian withdrawal from Trieste. At the time I hinted to Germany that it was because of a secret anti-German alliance, although I guess he was just trying to reinforce his home centres.

I had been eyeing the largely undefended Russian north and Scandinavia for a while now. In Spring 1911 I made my move. I had intended to move my army into UKR and ferry troops into SEV, allowing me to take MOS, but made a big blunder in not supporting those troops into SEV, choosing to attack BUD instead. In retrospect, this probably cost me the game. By the time I had my troops ready for an attack on MOS, the Germans had moved in support and reinforced Scandinavia.

It was a lot of fun and I look forward to the next one!
posted by pravit at 10:19 AM on April 24, 2009


It might be best to organize games depending on what time of day people can move.
posted by rakish_yet_centered at 10:38 AM on April 24, 2009


Yeah, I'm too lazy right now to finish my above level of detail, though I'll still continue later on the wiki. In the meantime:

Since Italy was allied with Germany and I had little contact with England and Russia's lone remaining army, I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of this was, but I was in no position to take on Germany at the time anyway. We agreed to keep UKR as a DMZ, which probably benefited me much more than Germany.

My thinking on the bounce wasn't so much to make it look like we were fighting, but to just keep that unit of yours occupied. I THINK (I'd have to check) that at that point I just wanted to be able to keep from fighting you so I could focus on England. I was hoping you and Italy would keep scrapping yourselves up until I was done with England and ready to pivot in (probably towards you, maybe to Italy, ) though in practice all it did was build you up at Italy's expense.

It's gracious of Germany to say we won it together, but that's not really true. I tried to get a vicious stab against Germany together, having wormed my way into his good graces, but to no avail.

Well, in that case.... while I'm not surprised that Italy was playing multiple sides, I am a bit surprised at how MUCH he seems to have been doing so. Which is kinda neat to find out. At the end of the day, Italy is probably the only one I kept my word to. :-) My thinking towards the end was that, well, Italy very likely wasn't going to "win". He had to know that. And if it were me, I'd be coming up with alternate levels of "victory" for myself. I might say I wanted to survive with as many zones as I could, or have been part of it. This is the point that I started to say "If you help me here, I'll be happy to announce that we I consider it a joint victory." Now, in the context of the game that's meaningless, but to me, and remember this in the future if you play against me, if I'm doomed, I want to at least survive, or so. That's one of the reasons I kept that last Russia piece supported for so long - both to give me a buffer, but also to keep a good player in the game at the end if possible.

Not that I would have been offended if he betrayed me, but that was the thinking behind my endgame press to Italy.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 10:46 AM on April 24, 2009


My goal toward the end was just to have some sort of impact on the game. As malicious as it sounds, I really just wanted to pull off a sweet stab of any kind.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 10:50 AM on April 24, 2009


What I would love to know, Italy, is whether that pullout of Portugal just before ownership change really WAS an accident or not. It just seemed so suspicious to me, and I was sure there was coordination between you and England about it, but then you moved right back in and that coordinated attack never came. I can't tell you how much that messed with my head for a while.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 10:55 AM on April 24, 2009


That was a total accident. I got mixed up on seasons, and thought I'd been there long enough to snag a supply center, so I started moving back home to deal with Turkey.

It's cool that it had unintended consequences though.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 11:17 AM on April 24, 2009


So are we going to have a new game? I'll promise to keep a journal so that I can keep a consistent strategy and have something to fill in the Wiki at the end.
posted by octothorpe at 7:00 AM on May 7, 2009


It'd be my pleasure to start a few more games soon. Could I trouble someone to be GM for a game so I could play in it?
posted by spamguy at 10:19 AM on May 8, 2009


I hadn't realized a GM was required.
posted by rakish_yet_centered at 4:26 PM on May 8, 2009


spamguy, what does GMing entail?
posted by Rock Steady at 4:30 PM on May 8, 2009


This about sums responsibilities up. You can ignore details about email commands. This article was written with email-only transactions in mind. This article describes GM-specific commands.
posted by spamguy at 11:27 PM on May 10, 2009


I'd be willing to GM a game. We probably should do another MeTa post announcing it to see how much demand there is at this point. I don't think I could handle multiple games, so if there are a bunch of people who want to play again we will need other GM volunteers.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:03 AM on May 11, 2009


I GM'd a game I played with some (trusting) friends and resigned early due to a disastrous first few seasons. I set it to smart-cd and never had to deal with the game again.
posted by empath at 8:20 AM on May 11, 2009


I could GM possibly but ez1 was the first game of diplomacy that I've ever played so it would be a blind leading the blind kind of situation. Also I'm sure we could get enough people together for at least two games with a new MeTa post. It's been almost six months since the first set of games so there are a lot of new people around in MeTa these days, and it seems like a lot of the people who played in the last set would be up for another one.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:09 AM on May 11, 2009


I can't really GM at this point in my life since my office blocks both email and the dpjudge website and trying to run things through my Env2 phone would be an exercise in pain.
posted by octothorpe at 9:28 AM on May 11, 2009


I started a new thread.
posted by empath at 1:37 PM on May 11, 2009


« Older Why doesn't the Metafilter sea...  |  Happy birthday to us - four ye... Newer »

You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments