distinctions April 13, 2009 12:21 PM Subscribe

the difference between "answering" and "replying".

i used to talk about this with a friend of mine frequently. i don't think the distinction is recongized enough these days.

if i ask what you'd like for dinner, and you say "volkswagens are reliable cars", you have REPLIED, but you have not ANSWERED.

posted by radiosilents to Etiquette/Policy at 12:21 PM (476 comments total) 5 users marked this as a favorite

uh so is this related to mefi whatsoever? Please post your ANSWER here
posted by wheelieman at 12:24 PM on April 13, 2009

HAHAHA YOU DUMMIES!

/reply
posted by Mister_A at 12:24 PM on April 13, 2009

So, what, you're saying they're not reliable?
posted by boo_radley at 12:24 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

Or, maybe, the links, she has been forgetted? Why no?
posted by Mister_A at 12:26 PM on April 13, 2009

I'd like pizza for dinner.
posted by rocket88 at 12:26 PM on April 13, 2009

This is performance art intended to protest giving helpful information in threads instead of simply answering the yes or no question, right?
posted by Plutor at 12:26 PM on April 13, 2009

Plutor, that was both a reply and another question. Well done, and by the way-
right.
posted by Mister_A at 12:27 PM on April 13, 2009

Answer me, I replied.
posted by gingerbeer at 12:27 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

Is this about the New Zealand thread on AskMe?
posted by Dr-Baa at 12:28 PM on April 13, 2009

10 LET X = "REPLYING INSTEAD OF ANSWERING"
20 PRINT "WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH X? X SUCKS AMIRITE?"
30 INPUT A$
posted by dersins at 12:28 PM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]

They need to do way instain mother who kill thier babbys. becuse these babby can't frigth back?
posted by Metroid Baby at 12:28 PM on April 13, 2009 [8 favorites]

you have POSTED, but you have not CALLED OUT.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:28 PM on April 13, 2009 [19 favorites]

PLEASE STATE YOUR ANSWER IN THE FORM OF A REPLY, DICKWADS!
posted by Mister_A at 12:29 PM on April 13, 2009

I thought replying was how they made that bent-plywood furniture.
posted by box at 12:29 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

Go fuck a rainbow?
posted by jerseygirl at 12:30 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

~~Is this~~ This is about the New Zealand thread on AskMe?.
posted by Dr-Baa at 12:30 PM on April 13, 2009

What do you hate about MetaFilter?
posted by carsonb at 12:30 PM on April 13, 2009

dude you are not ee cummings
posted by found missing at 12:30 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

-------------------------------- | DERSINS COMMENT REPORT CARD | -------------------------------- "AMIRITE" .................... 8 Programming reference ....... 10 BASIC reference ............. -6 BASIC done wrong ........... -15 Total ....................... -3
posted by Plutor at 12:32 PM on April 13, 2009 [53 favorites]

i don't think the distinction is recongized enough these days.

Ah, the good old days, when questions were posed directly and answers were proffered in reply.

Also, sentences were begun with capital letters, posts were proofread by their posters for spelling and grammar, and all-caps was reserved for an acute need for shouting.
posted by desuetude at 12:33 PM on April 13, 2009 [13 favorites]

posted by Dr-Baa at 12:33 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

radiosilents, can you clear up why you made this post? Is it a language issue in the interface we could clean up, or something less specific about you're not seeing good answers (and if so, where? Can you give me a link to where this is happening?)?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 12:33 PM on April 13, 2009

if i ask what you'd like for dinner, and you say "volkswagens are reliable cars", you have REPLIED, but you have not ANSWERED

Final answer. 'Cause the man from Mars stopped eatin' cars and eatin' bars
And now he only eats guitars, get up
Rapture
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:34 PM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]

radiosilents, you might want to look at Dan Sperber & Deirdre Wilson's book Relevance. It discusses all the shared assumptions that underly any effective communication between people, among them that when questions are asked, the questions' premises will be understood by the asker and answerer, allowing relevant answers instead of irrelevant "replies," as you describe them.
posted by cgc373 at 12:34 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

Is this about the New Zealand thread on AskMe?

Ah, the old boyfriend trick. I was wondering why he was obviously ranting about the answers he got from an AskMe question, even though he hasn't posted one in six months. Mystery solved.
posted by burnmp3s at 12:35 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

Incidentally, "Volkswagens are reliable cars" is absolutely a valid answer to "what would you like for dinner?" - particularly if you are asking Robosaurus.
posted by Metroid Baby at 12:35 PM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]

By his own stringent standards, his reply would be: Yes, No, Yes.
posted by Plutor at 12:35 PM on April 13, 2009

I'm going to reply to this here, since it seems more appropriate, and reposting the comment as it might be deleted:

CunningLinguist - you're right - if you take out all the other questions and explanations and decide to focus on just the very last bit that was my question. but, if you've ever studied context clues (and your handle suggests that maybe you have), the first 206 words are pretty important to determine what i was getting at with the last 11.
so, do you have an answer to "Tell me everything awful about New Zealand." or "What do you hate about New Zealand" or are you just taking the piss out on my thread?
posted by nadawi at 3:25 PM on April 13 [+] [!]

If you start with a very narrow question ("Tell me everything awful about New Zealand") and then finish with a really general one ("why is this a terrible plan?") you can't get angry that people answer the latter.
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:36 PM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]

cgc373 : that sounds really interesting. thank you!
posted by radiosilents at 12:37 PM on April 13, 2009

dude, don't try that no-caps shit in new zealand. they'll bust you up good.
posted by rocket88 at 12:39 PM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]

What's for dinner?
posted by kuujjuarapik at 12:39 PM on April 13, 2009

This is the worst MetaTalk thread ever. Tell me what you hate about this thread, please.
posted by Mister_A at 12:39 PM on April 13, 2009

I'm going to have to agree with CunningLinguist here. Broad questions lead to lots of different types of answers including those that may cast aspersions on to your good natures. If people mention this without being disrespectful it's actually a nice thing to maybe consider what they're saying not snark at people who are giving you replies and answers for free.

Cryptic MeTa posts rarely solve anything and make people make presumptions about your relative levels of "want to solve the problem" versus "has hair up ass." I like to believe the best about everyone when at all possible, please help me do that.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:40 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

CL : your answer did not address anything asked in the larger first part, and instead focused on aspects of the process not being inquired about. perhaps this info would later be useful, certainly, and no one doubts how wonderfully and skillfully you replied. we're just looking for information not-quite-related to all of the dangers and difficulties and foolhardiness of moving blindly across the planet such as "what do you think of this place?".

while i'm sure the information you've supplied is relevant and entirely useful to someone in a different situation, it sadly did not answer for us the questions we had been most curious about. other replies in the thread have been directly related to the question itself, and not the implied question (should this be chosen as a final destination) of how to make the move happen.

we appreciate you taking so much time to clarify how we need to know this before we can form an opinion of the place. thank you.
posted by radiosilents at 12:41 PM on April 13, 2009

CunningLinguist - if i have a narrow question (which tell me everything you hate about an entire question doesn't seem overly narrow), an explanation of that question, and the question repeated in the header, you can't be surprised at my annoyance that you feel like ignoring all of that to browbeat us about our travel habits or preparation level, ESPECIALLY if we take pains to clarify the question we're trying to get answered.

i figured for a smart community like metafilter the people answering the question would have realized that my last question related to the previous 2 paragraphs and 2 questions. i'm sorry if you feel i've given you too much of a benefit of the doubt. i didn't realize your memory was so short that any level of contextualizing is beyond you.
posted by nadawi at 12:43 PM on April 13, 2009

Christ, what a pompous, smarmy, school-marmish blow-hard.
posted by Mister_A at 12:44 PM on April 13, 2009 [19 favorites]

You have an extraordinary definition of "browbeating." Not to mention a really peachy attitude.
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:45 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

Tell me everything awful about New Zealand.

Looking into the future, I'd say the two of you.
posted by found missing at 12:45 PM on April 13, 2009 [71 favorites]

The thing I find hard to believe is that you two claim to not have any friends! How can that be so?
posted by Mister_A at 12:45 PM on April 13, 2009 [18 favorites]

edit: (everything you have about an entire nation)
posted by nadawi at 12:46 PM on April 13, 2009

while i'm sure the information you've supplied is relevant and entirely useful to someone in a different situation, it sadly did not answer for us the questions we had been most curious about.

Dang, that sucks, but I don't think CunningLinguist (or any of the other people attempting to be helpful in that thread) can really take it back. So it's up to you to let it go/ignore the irrelevant answers and concentrate on the ones that contain what you're looking for.

It seems sort of relevant (damned if I know exactly how) and I don't have a lot to expand upon, but, you know, historically people have had a lot of trouble with the answers Oracles provided. 42, sure, but what the fuck's the question?
posted by carsonb at 12:47 PM on April 13, 2009

Psst, nadawi and radiosilents.... New Zealanders are all about the dry humor, but not so much the sneery, heavy sarcasm. They actually utilize a humor test at customs; if you fail, you get deported directly to Northern Territory in Australia. So you might want to work on that before you go.
posted by scody at 12:49 PM on April 13, 2009 [5 favorites]

JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION SCODY.
posted by Mister_A at 12:51 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

This is just so great.
posted by AwkwardPause at 12:51 PM on April 13, 2009

What a fucking awful Askme. It was 'kinda vague' initially, but the flooding of direct, double whammy dripping sarcasm pretty much made it instantly a very unpleasant place to be.

The OP better hope that anyone else wishing to help answer doesn't read the first half, or they may well get put off.

And if this question is asked before they have even established if they would be eligible for any sort of work permit/immigration status, then I guess we have a long, long, series of questions relating to their entire list of potential countries...

Clue: SEE IF YOU CAN GO THERE FIRST. If you can't, who gives a shit what its like?
posted by Brockles at 12:54 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

while i'm sure the information you've supplied is relevant and entirely useful to someone in a different situation, it sadly did not answer for us the questions we had been most curious about. other replies in the thread have been directly related to the question itself, and not the implied question (should this be chosen as a final destination) of how to make the move happen

That's kind of how AskMe works. Some people give you good answers to your question, other people do not. Overall it's better than any other place I know of where you can ask random people a question. Also, sometimes people in a similar situation will find the answers you were given and find some of the answers that you didn't like useful.

A few tips:

1. Babysitting an AskMe thread by complaining every time someone gives you an answer you don't like does not work. You are not actually improving the quality of answers you get by doing that, and if anything you're injecting even more noise into the thread.

2. Making a sarcastic and vague MeTa post about how you're unhappy about your AskMe answers is also a bad idea. Not only will it not have any benefit for you or anyone else's future AskMe answers, but you will most likely start a big messy and pointless thread filled with people calling you names.
posted by burnmp3s at 12:55 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

I nominate this thread for the sidebar!
posted by Mister_A at 12:55 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

Oh, I got my answer. And I regretted it. The phone call was coming from a phone cable that had been struck by lightning and landed itself embedded into a grave. It was my own grandfather's voice that had called me!

Now that I know the answer, I wish I had just stuck with the reply.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:56 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

Didn't one of you say "i wouldn't consider us rude/stereotypical americans"? You may want to reconsider that.
posted by arco at 12:56 PM on April 13, 2009 [10 favorites]

The poster's use of the "royal" we is clear evidence that the poster is Queen Elizabeth II.
posted by evilcolonel at 12:57 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

No answer
vs.
No reply
posted by ALongDecember at 12:58 PM on April 13, 2009

Is this the D and D thread?
posted by vrakatar at 12:59 PM on April 13, 2009

Yeah, I've seen your blog. I get it.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 12:59 PM on April 13, 2009

I think CunningLinguist's first reply on that thread was a good answer and good advice.
posted by panboi at 1:00 PM on April 13, 2009

Wait, so did Nadawi move to Texas with EatTheWeak then meet radiosilents? Intrigue!
posted by amro at 1:00 PM on April 13, 2009

I will now beam my languagehat signal into the night sky, instantly summoning languagehat to the aid, and possibly succor, of this enturmoiled thread!
posted by Mister_A at 1:00 PM on April 13, 2009

People in that thread were idiots. OP asks, "tell me what's bad about New Zealand". A dozen people say, "hey, jackasses, maybe you should do some research before you decide to move to New Zealand." Um, AskMe is research. The poster(s) stated very clearly that they know that AskMe is merely part of a balanced research diet, and people still jumped down their throats.

The question was worded perfectly well. The only problem is that a bunch of people who had no answer for the actual question decided to jump in and answer a different question instead. The posters have been a little rude, but they're right--most of those answers didn't belong.
posted by equalpants at 1:01 PM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]

yes, we're rude, childish, defensive, running away, and ill prepared. thanks metafilter! it all makes so much sense now! it's not like i said something to the affect of 'these are the beginning stages and i want to find out what people hate about a specific geographical area before i suck too much time into it' or anything...
posted by nadawi at 1:02 PM on April 13, 2009

amro - fuck, before we open a whole unrelated bag of worms. radiosilents and i have known each other for 9 years. our friendship predates any moving i did with eattheweak (who i broke up with a year and a half ago). there is intrigue for days, i'm sure, but not how you're reading it.
posted by nadawi at 1:04 PM on April 13, 2009

I will say directly what someone else tried to suggest in the AskMe thread: Moving across the world will not change the fact that you both sound like miserable, standoffish people (assuming you are even two different people, which I'm finding hard to believe)...
posted by rollbiz at 1:08 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

ok radiosilents, this is the part where you tell us to meet you at Shaw's
posted by solipsophistocracy at 1:09 PM on April 13, 2009 [6 favorites]

I am here!

...Where's the flameout?
posted by languagehat at 1:09 PM on April 13, 2009 [6 favorites]

Unfortunately, that really does seem to be the case. As someone who has moved countries twice now, I'd say that unless you are grossly understating your qualifications, a waiter and a 'service monkey/photographer' will have a hell of a time getting in to any other country to work and live. It's really hard, and takes a lot of money or time or both.

Do you have either?

Seriously, you need to look into whether moving countries is even viable, as that will massively restrict your options as to where you can go. One of you has missed the perfect way to get to OZ/NZ with the working student visa, but that runs out when you're 30. I was kicking myself for missing out on that one, I can tell you. It was the only way I could get to OZ oin a relatively cost effective manner and try and get a visa (inside of a year) and I had 15 years experience as a qualified Engineer at the time. It's just not that easy to switch countries.
posted by Brockles at 1:09 PM on April 13, 2009

See? I can't even do HTML. NO WONDER THE WOULDN'T LET ME IN!
posted by Brockles at 1:10 PM on April 13, 2009

Oh, and nice hat!
posted by languagehat at 1:10 PM on April 13, 2009

42, sure, but what the fuck's the question?

What is 6 times 9?

(Been a long time, but I'm pretty sure that in Life, the Universe, and Everything, Arthur pulls letters randomly from a bag that spell out this question, and it is the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything. Incidentally, it's absolutely true, in base13.)
posted by owtytrof at 1:10 PM on April 13, 2009

I thought this pretty shitty and unnecessary.

I still fail to see how it's helpful to post a question with so little detail; obviously, you've gotten some good answers out of it, but I'll give credit more to askme answerers than to the question.

You've given checkmarks to folks that talk about slow internet service, and how isolated NZ is and can feel. That's good information to have. But what if you actually love the idea of being really far away from everywhere, or you want to live a less internet-y life? You haven't given askme the bare minimum of information that would be really helpful to answering your question (e.g., what do you hate/love about where you live now?). That you've gotten some decent answers is more luck than anything else.

And you both only helped fan the flames in that thread by being rude. I understand that you felt people were being unhelpful, or were not answering the question, or were making assumptions about you (which, given the lack of information you provided, is hardly surprising). In future, maybe just flag, email mods, or clarify politely.
posted by rtha at 1:11 PM on April 13, 2009

I like chocolate milk.
posted by Spatch at 1:11 PM on April 13, 2009

Oh, and what I actually meant to post before carsonb distracted me:

Don't post a question if you don't want the question answered. If you didn't want to told why you have a terrible plan, leave that out of your post. Also, no one is obligated to answer your question in the exact way that you desire, and getting snippy about it doesn't do anything for your image.
posted by owtytrof at 1:12 PM on April 13, 2009

You got really defensive really quickly in that thread. I've never been to NZ so that's why I didn't answer, but I've lived in two countries that were not my home country, one side of my family are from yet another country, and I've traveled a fair bit. I discovered a culture-shock when I moved to the US that I never, ever thought that I would despite the fact that I had visited the US on several occasions before moving here. The fact that you say that you've never even left the US rings alarm bells for me. It seems completely reasonable to advise you to visit the place first.
posted by ob at 1:13 PM on April 13, 2009

yes, we're rude, childish, defensive, running away, and ill prepared. thanks metafilter! it all makes so much sense now!

nadawi, I say this sincerely as someone who answered your question directly (which you marked as a best answer): you are behaving rudely and defensively. If you continue, you may not receive much more help in that thread or in the future. If you can take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard, and calm down a little, you'll probably get more out of the thread and any future threads you may post.

And a word to the wise: moving halfway around the world requires the ability to maintain your cool in a variety of situations that will be infinitely more stressful and frustrating than an AskMe thread that's going in a direction you don't happen to like. So do yourselves a huge favor, both for the short run and the long run: take a step back and chill.
posted by scody at 1:14 PM on April 13, 2009 [11 favorites]

If all you really wanted was to hear about some of the downsides to life in NZ, why did you attach all this other shit to the question, about your dramatic relationship and desire to move to NZ to work doing almost anything, and why did you ask for opinions on your half-baked plan? Why did you put all this into your question if none of it has anything to do with the kind of answers you were hoping to receive?
posted by Mister_A at 1:14 PM on April 13, 2009 [6 favorites]

rtha - people who answered the question got best answers as i didn't ask metafilter to try to guess what i would hate, i asked what they hated. in our research and decision making process we'll decide how heavy to weight all the pros and cons, but just having cons for the list is very helpful.
posted by nadawi at 1:16 PM on April 13, 2009

You are all talking but no one is saying anything!

*hyperventilates*

Stop it stop it stop it STOP IT!

DON'T MAKE ME GET THE HOSE AGAIN!
posted by quin at 1:17 PM on April 13, 2009

*Puts the lotion in the basket*
posted by Mister_A at 1:21 PM on April 13, 2009

If you ever think that it's the community that can't "get" your question, or that it isn't capable of simple reading comprehension, rather than considering the possibility that you made a garbled, out-of-focus post that raised more questions than it asked, you are wrong. Here, additionally, you are kind of a jerk about it.
posted by kosem at 1:23 PM on April 13, 2009 [5 favorites]

The name hamster is derived from the German word Hamstern, itself from earlier OHG hamustro, from ORuss choměstorǔ, which is either a blend of the root of Russ khomiak "hamster" and a Baltic word (cf. Lith staras "hamster") or of Iranian origin (cf. Av hamaēstar "oppressor").

Behavior can vary depending on their environment, genetics, and interaction with people. Because they are easy to breed in captivity, hamsters are often used as lab animals in more economically developed countries. Hamsters have also become established as popular small pets.

Hamsters are crepuscular. In the wild, they burrow underground in the daylight to avoid being caught by predators. Their diet contains a variety of foods, including dried food, berries, nuts, fresh fruits and vegetables. In the wild they will eat any wheat, nuts and small bits of fruit and vegetables that they might find lying around on the ground, and will occasionally eat small insects such as small crickets or mealworms. They have elongated fur-lined pouches on both sides of their heads which extend to their shoulders, which they stuff full of food to be brought back to the colony or to be eaten later.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:23 PM on April 13, 2009 [7 favorites]

ANSWER not HAMSTER, DAMMIT!
posted by found missing at 1:25 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

They have elongated fur-lined pouches on both sides of their heads which extend to their shoulders, which they stuff full of food to be brought back to the colony or to be eaten later.

Man, that'd be handy at Shaw's.
posted by jerseygirl at 1:27 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

If all you really wanted was to hear about some of the downsides to life in NZ, why did you attach all this other shit to the question, about your dramatic relationship and desire to move to NZ to work doing almost anything, and why did you ask for opinions on your half-baked plan? Why did you put all this into your question if none of it has anything to do with the kind of answers you were hoping to receive?

I'm confident that the reason couldn't possibly be raging narcissism. That also couldn't be the reason for this MeTa.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:27 PM on April 13, 2009 [5 favorites]

While I think the MeTa thread for this is... not constructed as helpfully as it could be, I felt frustrated for nadawi just reading some of the answers on that thread. I think people baby and talk down to people on AskMeFi way more often than is necessary, although it's usually well-meaning. I'd be irked too if people acted like I wasn't an adult capable of weighing pros and cons and making my own rational decisions about where I want to live. If someone is asking for the bad things about a country, it's obvious to me they're exercising that rationality.

I can't know if people were honestly confused by the "why is this a terrible idea" or are just pointing to that in retrospect, but I thought it was clear that was just another way of saying, "Tell me bad things about New Zealand."

I don't think people do it maliciously so I'm not really sure how to avoid it. I suspect I've probably done this before, even. So sometimes I just feel like if someone were to post, "Help, I can't choose what soup to make for dinner!" that they'd get answers about how they obviously have problems making decisions and that they can't let it ruin their life; that they shouldn't eat soup for reason X, reason Y, and reason Z; that they must not really want soup if they can't decide; etc. It's like damn, sometimes people just want you to recommend them a soup.

Oh well.
posted by Nattie at 1:27 PM on April 13, 2009 [10 favorites]

i have killed enough hamsters in my grade school life that if there were a war crimes tribunal for rodent deaths, i would be sent to the big house for life.
posted by nadawi at 1:27 PM on April 13, 2009

I was going to try to stop doing this. Really. Much of my MetaTalk behaviour is unproductive at best. I simply do not have the willpower.

This is a bad post. You are a bad person for making it. You should feel bad.
posted by GuyZero at 1:28 PM on April 13, 2009

You know the thing about going places? No matter where you go there you are. You see what I'm saying? THERE YOU ARE. I wish there were some other words in that sentence that I could not capitalize, so that the ones I did capitalize would seem more emphatic. BUT I CAN'T. Because each of those words is incredibly important and may be the most important word in that sentence. THERE. YOU. ARE. Don't you see?! You are THERE. But YOU are there. ARE. Can you see what I'm getting at? The things you own own you! When the things ARE THERE too. Don't take your things THERE! Don't even take YOU. Then you don't need to go THERE. Because YOU won't be where you are. Which is now THERE. Omigod can't you see it?

Also 9 out of 10 people in New Zealand have chlamydia so you don't want to go there.
posted by ND¢ at 1:29 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

Hamster Soup is the number 1 reason to avoid New Zealand.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:30 PM on April 13, 2009

"Hamster Soup" is what the kids call chlamydia.
posted by ND¢ at 1:31 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

This is like asking, "I'm thinking of buying a Mini Cooper. Can you tell me what you don't like about them? Also, I've never driven before." It's not surprising that some people would pipe up with "Wait, what? Maybe you could think about getting your permit first?"
posted by cadge at 1:32 PM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]

Better chlamydia than Clamato.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:32 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

Let's just let them move to a place with slow and expensive Internet access, shall we?

NEW ZEALAND IS AWESOME!
posted by desjardins at 1:34 PM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]

we appreciate you taking so much time to clarify how we need to know this before we can form an opinion of the place.

Duly noted. Will try harder for you in the future.

Sincerely,
i'm not the boyfriend.
posted by joe lisboa at 1:35 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

Better chlamydia than Clamato.

However better Bud Light with chlamydia than Bud Light with Clamato. Isn't life funny?
posted by ob at 1:35 PM on April 13, 2009

nadawi and co could have asked a one sentence question: "Tell me what you dislike about New Zealand." Instead they gave us a back story that invites more generalized answers. It doesn't help that they peppered their question and answers with a fair amount of contempt for so called, "rude Americans". There are no rude people in New Zealand, don't ya know?

And why ever did you tell us that you might be willing to eat fish in the future? I did not NEED that information to tell you what I hate about New Zealand. Notice how that sounds rude? You shouldn't be surprised that you are turning a lot of people off with your

/eats a cheeseburger in my SUV. Swerves.
posted by Fairchild at 1:38 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

The thread yesterday about book recommendations, and now this? Jesus. I completely agree with radiosilents and nadawi. Their "I'm not taking any shit" attitude is exactly what AskMe needs. In fact I think they could have gone a step further and pre-emptively stated "If you don't have something specifically bad to say about NZ, please do not respond in this thread. We don't want to hear from armchair psychiatrists, fuck you very much." Good for them.
posted by metastability at 1:39 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

Bud Light + Anything = Crap.
Clamato + Anything = Crap.
Bud Light = Clamato.

QED
posted by Mister_A at 1:40 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

equalpants, agreed. It's totally sensible to gather some preliminary info about a place while/before making actual solid plans to go there. I thought it was clear that that was what radiosilents and nadawi were up to, and I understand their irritation at receiving some rather condescending advice that assumed they couldn't know what they were doing. Their first few clarifications were reasonable, and after that point people ought to have just answered their question.

All the same, this is really no way to react.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 1:41 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

ND¢: "Also 9 out of 10 people in New Zealand have chlamydia so you don't want to go there."

Got a citation for that? Cause that link ain't one.
posted by Science! at 1:41 PM on April 13, 2009

In fact I think they could have gone a step further and pre-emptively stated "If you don't have something specifically bad to say about NZ, please do not respond in this thread. We don't want to hear from armchair psychiatrists, fuck you very much."

I don't think this is the sort of stability metafilter is looking for.
posted by CKmtl at 1:44 PM on April 13, 2009

Oh wait... Sorry ND¢, I didn't realize this had turned into a burn New Zealand thread. Carry on.
posted by Science! at 1:49 PM on April 13, 2009

Does anyone else think it was extra weird to frame the question as "tell me what you hate" until the dual thread modding started and then the light dawns and ohhhh, that's why it was asked that way.
posted by desuetude at 1:50 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

No, no. You're right. Here you are.

What percentage of New Zealanders have chlamydia?
posted by ND¢ at 1:50 PM on April 13, 2009 [6 favorites]

desuetude: I had an experience like unto the one you describe.
posted by Mister_A at 1:51 PM on April 13, 2009

Shit. Sucks for New Zealand.
posted by Science! at 1:52 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

Does anyone else think it was extra weird to frame the question as "tell me what you hate" until the dual thread modding started and then the light dawns and ohhhh, that's why it was asked that way.

I'd say that this many thought that.
posted by ob at 1:53 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

ND¢, our fair state ain't so hot either, but people still keep coming here. Go figure. Everyone looks at schools and taxes, but no one ever checks the STI rates. Maybe it's just blowback my current job, but from now on, that'll be the first thing I check.

So yeah. Don't check the STI rates, move across the ocean, drink clamato. Make whatever bad decision you want, but don't expect me to bail you out when it all gets weird.
posted by 1f2frfbf at 1:53 PM on April 13, 2009

what a weird flameout
posted by kingbenny at 1:56 PM on April 13, 2009

Having only the tenth highest rate of chlamydia in the U.S. is the best news for South Carolina I have heard all year. I have never seen us in the double digits for something bad before. It is always:

States ranked for something bad:
#1 Mississippi
#2 South Carolina
.
.
.

States ranked for something good:
#1 Some damn yankee state that thinks it is better than us just because it objectively is
.
.
.
#49 South Carolina
#50 Mississippi
posted by ND¢ at 1:59 PM on April 13, 2009 [8 favorites]

You live in South Carolina and you're still waiting for it to get weird?
posted by Science! at 1:59 PM on April 13, 2009

This only makes sense when you realize that both radiosilents and nadawi are actually Billy Bob Thornton.
posted by found missing at 1:59 PM on April 13, 2009

My state always ranks high in suicides and serial killers. Why the fuck would I ever want to leave? Top that, New Zealand!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:02 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

This is so weird to me. When I read the question, it's clear to me that the extra information is included in case someone has something specific to say about it. For example, the part about being vegetarian but willing to eat fish is important; someone was able to comment that they'd have no problem being vegetarian there. That's something important to know if they're thinking about moving there. Their occupations are included in case they're a bad fit for whatever jobs are available there. The fact that they've never traveled seemed to be included precisely for the kinds of comments they got about, "You might think English speaking countries are similar to the U.S. in culture, but they're really not." I also didn't think they were saying Americans actually are rude, just that they didn't think they'd be doing the sorts of stereotypical things that foreigners expect Americans to do. That just seems like reading way too much into a pretty straight-forward AskMeFi.

To be honest, a lot of this comes across as people digging up reasons to paint nadawai badly in retrospect now that they feel she deserves it for getting irritated. There's nothing wrong with any of the information she included, and I really doubt anyone would say anything about it otherwise.

What's sillier about this is if they had just posted, "Tell me what's bad about New Zealand," and nothing else, they'd have gotten a bunch of responses asking for the exact kind of information they included. "Why do you want to know; I'm not sure what you're looking for." "Where do you live now?" "What kind of technical skills do you have?" etc. People would probably start yelling "chatfilter" since it'd be too open-ended a question with no context.

I dunno, I understand people are annoyed that the boyfriend made a MeTa about it and they don't like that that they got irritated by the answers, but the flame-throwing here seems ridiculously out of proportion. It's "raging narcissism" to include details about their life which would reasonably enter into their decision-making process if someone has something negative to say about it? If they were to move there, they'd be the worst thing about New Zealand? Seriously?
posted by Nattie at 2:04 PM on April 13, 2009 [12 favorites]

Mister_A, I believe you have just identified Bud Light and Clamato as members of the class called crapfinity.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:07 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

I believe you have just identified Bud Light and Clamato as members of the class called crapfinity.

However when put together they join the class pukefinity.
posted by ob at 2:09 PM on April 13, 2009

#1 Some damn yankee state that thinks it is better than us just because it objectively is

It's spelled V E R M O N T.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:10 PM on April 13, 2009 [6 favorites]

Nah, you know what? You ask a question asking for reasons to hate an entire country, people are going to get snippy with you. Deal with it. The question could have been phrased a lot better, and the double-team thread modding sure didn't help either. That this has now resulted in yet another pompous, self-serving MeTa thread is just sad. Seriously, by a Lonely Planet book or something, or better yet, GO THERE and decide for yourself.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:10 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

someone was able to comment that they'd have no problem being vegetarian there.
-That's not something terrible, it's something good - go to hell!

You might think English speaking countries are similar to the U.S. in culture, but they're really not.
-That's not something terrible, it's pretty much value-neutral - go to hell!
posted by Mister_A at 2:10 PM on April 13, 2009

Georgia's #5! Woo! Take that, 'cocks!

Oh. Wait. Let's pretend I'm talking about football and not about chlamydia, OK?
posted by catlet at 2:15 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

Nattie: Rule number one of the internet is that you have to ignore noise in your own threads. Rule number two is he who gets the last word in any argument loses. And rule 3 is bacon. Put these together and you've got a decent but dangerously worded question that got derailed by the poster-couples own disability to just mark what they liked as a best answer and ignore people who were giving them advice they didn't want as well as a completed lack of any kind of bacon.

In other news, fuck you cilantro-eaters.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:18 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

What's sillier about this is if they had just posted, "Tell me what's bad about New Zealand," and nothing else, they'd have gotten a bunch of responses asking for the exact kind of information they included.

Geographically, the question's a little wide. If the question had been narrowed down to a city or region in New Zealand then it might have been easier to handle.
posted by panboi at 2:19 PM on April 13, 2009

It's spelled V E R M O N T.

Haven't been to Colorado yet, then?
posted by boo_radley at 2:19 PM on April 13, 2009

Oh, so you're yankees now?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:20 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

I don't think people do it maliciously so I'm not really sure how to avoid it.

Well, I don't think it can be avoided. People are going to answer the question they perceive. My honest observation is that when the person asking tries to manage the responses, particularly if they start engaging individuals specifically and escalating the rhetoric, it makes the situation worse, not better. Because rather than some borderline non-answers sitting here or there, that are as likely to stifle similar responses (oh, somebody already covered the immigration situation there, skip it) you've got this discussion for people to take sides over and respond accordingly.

That thread absolutely wouldn't have had anything like the level of noise in it that it did if radiosilents had not decided he needed to jump in and preemptively scold people for doing it wrong with three rapid-fire, increasingly testy responses. Just when that is starting to die down and they are getting answers they consider to be worthwhile, nadawi weighs in with a longish paragraph on why the earlier answers were in fact wrong. The majority of radiosilents' and nadawi's responses in that thread are engaging and therefore amplifying responses they feel are coming from the wrong perspective.

So my advice to you, Nattie, is to just ignore borderline derails unless you think they are really injecting confusion into what reponse you are looking for, in which case politely clarify the kind of response you're hoping to get to your question without getting into other answerers' motivations.
posted by nanojath at 2:23 PM on April 13, 2009

There were many ways to phrase that question without pissing people off. There were even many ways to phrase the question in a "Tell me why you hate NZ" manner without pissing people off. That was not one of them.

I could see something like

"My boyfriend and I would love to move across the world and get out of this country, and we've decided on New Zealand as a potential target. We do [this profession], we have [these habits and interests], and we eat [this type of food]. If you've personally lived in New Zealand, can you see any reason why we might hate it there?"

going over fairly well.

I think part of the reason the question tanked was because it was framed in a "tell me why NZ is obectively shitty" sort of way, instead of a "tell me why NZ might not be a good fit" sort of way. The extraneous background information made a half-assed attempt at that, but got derailed towards answering the question of "why do we fail at planning immigration" instead (which is a different question yet again and cannot be said to be a restating of the previous question).

It was just a bit of a mess in general, and the defensiveness didn't help.
posted by Phire at 2:26 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

And to be fair, we have New Zealanders here. Not a lot but some. The above the fold question was a little in the "uh oh" range as well. Not that that's a huge deal, anyone clicking "more inside" would have clued in to what was really being asked, but as far as "how to ask a good question" there was room for improvement.

I always wince when I see questions that end with some variant of "anything else we should know?" because that opens up the field to "yeah, this is a bad plan" answers and all sorts of answers that would otherwise not be okay. Fighting with people who answered part of the question and not the "real" question when you've phrased it in such a way is like being angry at nighttime for being dark and thus leaving your only possible destination as Eagle, Alaska.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:28 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

To be fair, I understand what radiosilents is talking about. Yeah, the open-ended bit at the end did not help, I absolutely agree, but damn if a lot of people, when you ask "Y didn't work out for me, I don't want to do that again. How do I do X?" feel the blinding urge to say things like:

You don't want to do X.
No, you really want Y.
Why do you want to do X?
Y is what you want.
You're an idiot if you want to do X.

It's to the point where I am beginning to think AskMe might be somewhat better served by having some kind of a template in the extended section, which would have an additional two sections:

1) "Answers look like: ..."
2) "The following are not answers: ..."

It was pretty clear to me that they wanted to hear some negatives about New Zealand as a way to balance out the process, and that wasn't happening. If I knew something even mildly tangential to New Zealand, other than "home of Peter Jackson" and "lovely scenery," I'd have thrown something out. I didn't have anything, so I just watched. "Why is this a terrible plan" refers not to moving to a new country, but moving to New Zealand.

What I'm slowly learning, from similar incidents, is that providing backstory is actually counter-productive to getting your actual question answered in some cases. Every fact in the backstory must be questioned, each motivation analyzed, role reversals must be performed, etc. The more specific your request, the more you are served by putting in the absolute least information possible. Putting in constraints or no-go areas is dicey, at best.

No, the end of the question wasn't terribly well-phrased, but as far as I can tell, MeFites have a very, very high reading comprehension level and are capable of extracting the heart of the question. That this mostly didn't happen is partially reminiscent of a phenomenon I noted back in the 90's. If you have a time machine, hop back a decade or so, get on IRC, join #linux, and ask how to find specific directions on recompiling the kernel for, say, RedHat. What you'd get back would be "You should be using Debian." "RTFM." "You don't want to recompile the kernel." "RedHat is for idiots." "You don't need to do that." Note, no matter what distro you asked about, it would be the wrong one.

Smartass Answer Syndrome is rarely enlightening, mostly frustrating. Nobody wants to be SASed, and it is rarely needed.
posted by adipocere at 2:28 PM on April 13, 2009 [8 favorites]

Your level of rage at least makes this clear: New Zealand will not like you, New Zealanders will like you even less.
posted by Eicats at 2:37 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

Oh, so you're yankees now?

All of the Northeastern United States: yankees
Colorado: yankees
California: yankees
Hawaii: yankees
etc.

Southern Virginia, Southern Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina (except for the research triangle), Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Northern Florida: the "lesser South". Somewhat less terrible because they are at least not yankees, but having college football teams that are terribly inferior and whose fans are assholes and generally making the good parts of the South look bad because of their uncouth and toothless ways.

South Carolina: God's country aka chlamydia city.
posted by ND¢ at 2:37 PM on April 13, 2009

Better chlamydia than Clamato.

I misread that as "better chlamydia than cilantro" which, incidentally, is a statement I wholeheartedly agree with.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:40 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

It's "raging narcissism" to include details about their life which would reasonably enter into their decision-making process if someone has something negative to say about it? If they were to move there, they'd be the worst thing about New Zealand? Seriously?

No. Not at all. I agree with your point.

When you ask for advice I don't think it's very polite to get snippy about somewhat rambling replies or answers that veer slightly off topic. I'm appreciative for all of the answers I get. I'm free to cherry pick or mark "best answer" but I think it's kind of rude to complain when most people are genuinely trying to be helpful. There is also a better way to clarify what you are looking for. Their intolerance to the "replies" rubbed me the wrong way. It's none of my business, since I didn't participate in the original thread. I felt compelled to say something. I admit my comment in this thread isn't particularly mature, but I'm in a MetaTalk thread. When in Rome...
posted by Fairchild at 2:41 PM on April 13, 2009

Thank you, MeFi, for making me lol on my tedious 8-hour work shift, and reminding me why I fucking love MeFi, AskMe and MeTa so much that I almost want to bring up these two threads in conversations IRL, but know it would be IMPOSSIBLE to do justice (plus the blank stares of my friends being like 'Metahuh? Thread? Flame out???').
posted by nonmerci at 2:46 PM on April 13, 2009

So, for any NZ-ers reading, may I ask: just how expensive are books in New Zealand?
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 2:51 PM on April 13, 2009

Aw, ND¢ thinks they play real college football in South Carolina. Ain't that cute. Well bless your heart.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 2:54 PM on April 13, 2009

Why don't you do your state a favor and visit a library sometime.

more like chlamabama amirite
posted by ND¢ at 2:59 PM on April 13, 2009

nonmerci: " reminding me why I fucking love MeFi, AskMe and MeTa so much"

A dissenting voice from Mrs. Beese - who, upon being told of the unhappy doings at Amazon, asked, "Is this a real thing? Or is it just those MetaFilter kooks?"
posted by Joe Beese at 3:01 PM on April 13, 2009

in which case politely clarify the kind of response you're hoping to get

I agree. It's just that part of my sympathy for them is that they did just that and didn't get annoyed until later. The thread, as I watched it, went like this:

1) First answers are about moving in general, and not the sort of thing they're looking for.

2) They say, politely, that they appreciate what the answerers were trying to do, but they must clarify that's not the kind of information they're looking for, they are looking for X.

3) People say, "But you said this at the end."

I think this is the problematic step. I understand why people said that sort of thing, because they were trying to explain why they (or others) provided the answer they did.

But if you're the OP, this is just irritating to hear. It sounds like you're trying to lock them into getting the kinds of answers they don't want, when they're trying to clarify things and get the answers they do want. They know what they said, they realize it had been problematic, they're trying to fix it.

4) They're actually polite for a few more responses.

5) People continue to say, "But you said...!" instead of just laying off. Persisting at this point is understandably irksome; it's like saying, "I'm not going to let you fix the misunderstanding!" There's no good reason for it.

6) They quit being polite. To me, this was predictable and avoidable. Not just on their parts, but on the parts of the people who seemed to want to keep arguing that they asked for that kind of answer. It doesn't matter if the language they originally used technically allowed that kind of answer, once they clarified that wasn't the kind of thing they were looking for, that should be the end of discussion. If someone gave the kind of answer they weren't looking for, in light of their clarification the reasonable response is to either shrug off the misunderstanding and move on, maybe say, "Oh, sorry; I misunderstood," if you feel the need to say something.

Ideally, sure they would have just ignored the derail-ish stuff when it was clear no one was going to listen to them. I'm not excusing the MeTa or the later comments. But I completely understand their frustration, and they're only human.
posted by Nattie at 3:01 PM on April 13, 2009

Yes, we've always been yankees, unless you discredit us for not having a ridiculous accent.
posted by boo_radley at 3:11 PM on April 13, 2009

I think you're being too generous, Nattie. Both of these users have apparently been around MeFi and the subsites for long enough to know how AskMe and the culture here generally functions. Popping in to your own question and moderating never goes over well, no matter what, and always results in more shit being slung by some of the less restrained members. Add the couple tag-team aspect and the amount of bullshit clogging the thread will increase exponentially. This extremely vague MeTa is really just the icing.

They never should have been so active in the thread in the first place, because the resulting snark became all but inevitable. I have to agree with the 'narcissism' angle. Poorly worded question, extremely irritating thread moderation and their OWN call-out all combine into serious flame-out territory, regardless if the original poorly worded question started with good intentions.
posted by nonmerci at 3:15 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

To clarify, if they'd been rude from the beginning the reaction here would make way more sense to me. But they acknowledged that people were trying to be helpful, and they were nice. That's not being rude to people who are trying to be helpful. They weren't rude to anyone until people started arguing over and over that they asked for that kind of answer they didn't want. They only started being impolite when people weren't trying to be helpful and were instead being needlessly argumentative.

I realize that some people were probably still in step #3 and not step #5 at that point, and they weren't trying to be argumentative. Maybe that's part of why people think nadawi was super rude to them; they felt like they were just saying something innocuous, because that was their intent. I get that. Threads just sort of suck like that, though. If you're in the OP's position, it feels like everyone is badgering you when the same thing keeps coming up even though you've kept clarifying.

I dunno. The whole thing seems really unfortunate to me. I feel like some people are making the OP and her boyfriend out to be terrible people instead of just human. They weren't rude from the beginning.
posted by Nattie at 3:16 PM on April 13, 2009

I disagree that they politely and patiently clarified, Nattie. Within the first 6 comments, 3 are from radiosilents. CunningLinguist told them to take a trip abroad prior to moving, Foci for Analysis told them to visit NZ specifically, and rtha asked for more criteria for clarification. Radiosilents follows up with "surely SOMEONE can say SOMETHING about the place?"

That's just about the point where I'd lose my compassion for his exasperation.

I understand that there were other comments that were deleted, but I think it's entirely possible to update with more info about what they love about NZ already (as they did) and clarify that radiosilents is the boyfriend, without sniping about it. I think you're ascribing too much goodwill to them. From my reading of the thread, their primary gripe is that people followed a derail rather than answering the question in exactly the way they would've liked it. This MeTa has sufficiently addressed why the derail could have been avoided, so I'm not even sure what you're defending anymore.
posted by Phire at 3:16 PM on April 13, 2009

MetaTalk: Is this a real thing? Or is it just those MetaFilter kooks?
posted by Horace Rumpole at 3:17 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

The poster's use of the "royal" we is clear evidence that the poster is Queen Elizabeth II.

Liz, having been there about ten times over the last fifty years, already knows exactly what's wrong with NZ, but, unlike the dynamic duo here, she knows how to be polite (whatever her other failings): she just smiles and waves and says nothing.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 3:24 PM on April 13, 2009

According to Consumer Reports, Volkswagens are not reliable cars:

Of the 45 least reliable models, 19 were European, 20 were from U.S. manufacturers, 5 were Japanese, and 1 was South Korean. General Motors had 12, Mercedes-Benz had 8, Ford and Nissan each had 5, Chrysler and Volkswagen each had 3, BMW and Jaguar each had 2, while Kia, Land Rover, Porsche, Saab, and Volvo each had 1.

posted by camcgee at 3:30 PM on April 13, 2009

Thank you, MeFi, for making me lol on my tedious 8-hour work shift, and reminding me why I fucking love MeFi, AskMe and MeTa so much that I almost want to bring up these two threads in conversations IRL, but know it would be IMPOSSIBLE to do justice (plus the blank stares of my friends being like 'Metahuh? Thread? Flame out???').

Haha yes, I vividly recall trying to explain this gem of a thread to my girlfriend. Some stuff you just gotta be there.
posted by cj_ at 3:31 PM on April 13, 2009

"I discovered a culture-shock when I moved to the US that I never, ever thought that I would despite the fact that I had visited the US on several occasions before moving here."

When I met Ob, I introduced myself with a friendly ball-grope, and he got all weird and stand-offish. So, to make him feel at home, I called him a toffee-nosed git and headbutted him in the face.
posted by klangklangston at 3:36 PM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]

ND¢: "Why don't you do your state a favor and visit a library sometime.

more like chlamabama amirite"

Fuck! Go Kansas!
I hope that also covers E-Visits because just this weekend I was introduced to a huge database of downloadable music, audio books, e-books and, movies available through my local library in Kansas. I was pretty shocked to realize this network existed and just how extensive the database was, what a way to make digital files available to patrons and not take up shelf space needed by things that are not yet made digital.

I'm sure it has it's downsides somewhere, but GO KANSAS!
posted by Science! at 3:36 PM on April 13, 2009

But... Volkswagens are reliable cars.
posted by koeselitz at 3:51 PM on April 13, 2009

jessamyn: It's spelled V E R M O N T.

Nah, Uncles Ray and Clay swiped all the good stuff and stashed it in Rhode Island. Mobsters and bluebloods working together... can't be beat!
posted by Kattullus at 3:52 PM on April 13, 2009

Good times indeed.
posted by EatTheWeek at 4:07 PM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]

No, no. You're right. Here you are.

What percentage of New Zealanders have chlamydia?
posted by ND¢ at 4:50 PM on April 13 [1 favorite +] [!]

See also, from the same source.
posted by abc123xyzinfinity at 4:09 PM on April 13, 2009

More good news for South Carolina

South Dakota, not so much
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:09 PM on April 13, 2009

Jessamyn is right.

(relevant snippet:)
To foreigners, a Yankee is an American.
To Americans, a Yankee is a Northerner.
To Northerners, a Yankee is an Easterner.
To Easterners, a Yankee is a New Englander.
To New Englanders, a Yankee is a Vermonter.
And in Vermont, a Yankee is somebody who eats pie for breakfast.
posted by qvantamon at 4:11 PM on April 13, 2009 [22 favorites]

Lousy pie-eating Yankee buttsticks.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:17 PM on April 13, 2009

As a wise man once put it, "Maine is the Deep South of the Far North." Vermont, if we're being honest, is only superior to Maine in that it is smaller.

In answering the question, "Which damn yankee state that thinks it is better than us just because it objectively is is the damn yankee state that thinks it is better than us by the greatest degree just because it objectively is?," only Connecticut is correcticut.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:23 PM on April 13, 2009

abc123xyzinfinity: "No, no. You're right. Here you are.

What percentage of New Zealanders have chlamydia?
posted by ND¢ at 4:50 PM on April 13 [1 favorite +] [!]

See also, from the same source."

Ladies can get chlamydia too.
posted by Science! at 4:25 PM on April 13, 2009

Popping in to your own question and moderating never goes over well, no matter what, and always results in more shit being slung by some of the less restrained members.

This is true, but that doesn't make it OK. Talking back to a bully will only get you beat up more, but that doesn't make the beating justified.

In many of the questions I (and others) ask, there is at least one answer that varies between snarky and outright hostile. Stuff like "what would you want to that for??" and "well you know your premise of XYZ is totally flawed. right??"

I try to ignore them out of respect for the people who are taking the time to answer the question properly, but it does suck.

Also in New Zealand they call ketchup "tomato sauce" and charge you extra for a tiny tiny portion.
posted by drjimmy11 at 4:27 PM on April 13, 2009

Science!: "Ladies can get chlamydia too."

Quite right, quite right. I just didn't think these were literal enough.
posted by abc123xyzinfinity at 4:37 PM on April 13, 2009

I'd also like to note that the comment stating that moving to North Dakota from Oregon would be just as weird as moving from Oregon to New Zealand is utterly laughable bullshit. Oddly enough, it's marked as a best answer.
posted by nonmerci at 4:41 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

This is as good of a place as any to mention that I hate Connecticut. I lost a 5th grade spelling bee because I misheard "kinetic" as "Connecticut" and so I started spelling it "C..." I quickly realized my mistake and shouted "No, K!" but it was too late.

And *I* lost a 5th grade spelling bee when I, upon hearing the word "perimeter," correctly spelled the word "barometer."

So I, uh, hate atmospheric pressure.
posted by mudpuppie at 4:43 PM on April 13, 2009

eattheweak - you can fuck right off.
posted by nadawi at 4:46 PM on April 13, 2009

Oooh. This would probably a good time to close the thread.
posted by Phire at 4:47 PM on April 13, 2009

"Rhythm" was my 5th grade spelling bee downfall.

Also my music downfall.

Were it not for the birth of my beautiful and amazing son, my rhythm problems would have been all bad.
posted by stubby phillips at 4:51 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

POPCORN, STAT!
posted by GuyZero at 4:51 PM on April 13, 2009

And the hits just keep on coming...
posted by nonmerci at 4:52 PM on April 13, 2009

*munchmunchmunch*

You gonna take that eattheweak? huh?
posted by craven_morhead at 4:53 PM on April 13, 2009

Ohhhhh, hell yes.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 4:54 PM on April 13, 2009

The only reason to worry about chlamydia in New Zealand is if sheep can transmit it.
posted by klangklangston at 4:55 PM on April 13, 2009

"Aw, I remember that meetup. Good times!"

Ob could learn a lot about how Americans say goodbye from you!
posted by klangklangston at 4:56 PM on April 13, 2009

I can't imagine dating a MeFite. If we broke up, I'd feel really awkward about them being on the site that I see as my relaxation place. But there's no way I'd give up MeFi just for one user. That'd be a crappy choice.
posted by Phire at 4:59 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

Got the popcorn right here! Now, who's first for the tarrin'?
posted by languagehat at 5:01 PM on April 13, 2009

"Rhythm" was my 5th grade spelling bee downfall.

For me it was "welterweight", because the asshole reading the words pronouced it wHHHelterweight. TWICE!
posted by abc123xyzinfinity at 5:01 PM on April 13, 2009

This got interesting. Again.
posted by yeti at 5:03 PM on April 13, 2009

For me it was "welterweight", because the asshole reading the words pronouced it wHHHelterweight. TWICE!

Was it Hwil Hweaton?
posted by qvantamon at 5:04 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

I can't imagine dating a MeFite. If we broke up, I'd feel really awkward about them being on the site that I see as my relaxation place. But there's no way I'd give up MeFi just for one user. That'd be a crappy choice.

This is why my husband is not a member. You know, just in case.
posted by desjardins at 5:11 PM on April 13, 2009

desjardins: "This is why my husband is not a member. You know, just in case."

Good priorities, desjardins. My boyfriend only very occasionally browses the front page of the Blue, and that already feels weird. God forbid he actually get an account.
posted by Phire at 5:14 PM on April 13, 2009

Chlamydia needs a hug.
posted by carsonb at 5:14 PM on April 13, 2009

One time in Manhattan, I followed a woman for six blocks because she was on her cell phone yelling at her no-good, cheating man. She had the fucker dead to rights. She had the receipt from Jared and he sure hadn't given her a pendant from Jared, so she supposed that he'd given it to that no good ho ... oh, yes she was, the woman assured her cellphone, that other woman wasn't anything but a no-good wig-wearing ho. And the guy on the other end of the phone? He wasn't slick, he was duly informed. It's one of my strongest memories of New York City.

That weird glee that filled my stomach while I followed her for those six blocks? Yeah, it just kicked in.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:15 PM on April 13, 2009 [14 favorites]

Heh.

Relax, folks, the worms are staying in the can, I'm afraid (though I'll not pretend they aren't squirming). The three words I posted above were me saying my piece in this thread.

Suffice it to say, I'm not heartbroken that these two want to change hemispheres.
posted by EatTheWeek at 5:17 PM on April 13, 2009

Party pooper.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:20 PM on April 13, 2009

In 5th grade, or 4th or 3rd, somewhere around there, at least half my class got knocked out by nausea.
posted by nooneyouknow at 5:22 PM on April 13, 2009

Awwwwwwwwwww.

*stares forlornly at remaining, soggy popcorn*
posted by craven_morhead at 5:23 PM on April 13, 2009

oh, yes she was, the woman assured her cellphone, that other woman wasn't anything but a no-good wig-wearing ho.

Poetry, this.
posted by stubby phillips at 5:35 PM on April 13, 2009

at least half my class got knocked out by nausea.

The word or the symptom?
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:37 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

Nevertheless, EatTheWeek... You can still fuck right the heck off. You know... off?

Also, why is 'chlamydia' not a 5th grade spelling bee word?
posted by stubby phillips at 5:39 PM on April 13, 2009

Because to know how to spell that word, the 5th graders would have had to look it up in a dictionary, with definitions and explanations, and that just won't do.

(Though seriously, 5th grade a bit early for comprehensive sex ed?)
posted by Phire at 5:42 PM on April 13, 2009

(Though seriously, 5th grade a bit early for comprehensive sex ed?)

Probably not anymore.
posted by 6550 at 5:43 PM on April 13, 2009

This has been a great thread! Everybody take a bow!
posted by Mister_A at 5:45 PM on April 13, 2009

Phire: My husband gets his MetaFilter entirely through pillow talk. I won't even give him the URL.
posted by desjardins at 5:45 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

5th Grader: Can you use it in a sentence?

Proctor: That wig-wearin' ho gave me chlamydia. Musta been from Enn Zed...

5th Grader: See Aitch Ell...
posted by stubby phillips at 5:45 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

Who's in charge of the 10th anniversary meetup in New Zealand?
posted by lukemeister at 5:47 PM on April 13, 2009

I'd also like to note that the comment stating that moving to North Dakota from Oregon would be just as weird as moving from Oregon to New Zealand is utterly laughable bullshit.

It is funny. But I'm glad for this callout; it prevented me wasting time attempting to answer the question with my favourite collection of spleen about my home.
posted by rodgerd at 5:47 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

So, for any NZ-ers reading, may I ask: just how expensive are books in New Zealand?

New, typically in the $30-40 range, though children's books seem to be a little less (around $15-20). I did do a quick comparison of a few titles stocked by Borders and the NZ price appeared to be around 2.5x the US price. But I would expect that the exchange rate would account for most of that.

To be honest, I think the bigger problem is that a lot of titles just aren't available here, and so if you want to read something that isn't on a top-20 list or hasn't been made into a movie in the last year, there's a good chance you'll have to source it online, with the accompanying waiting period and shipping charges. Which kind of sucks.

It's a little sad to see people asking for all the reasons your country sucks.

...but only because all they have to do is google around for AUSTRALIA IS BETTER THAN NEW ZEALAND threads on Australian forums and they'll find everything they ever need ;)
posted by narrativium at 6:00 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

desjardins,

My wife, who is not on Metafilter, is starting to show an unnatural interest in attending a meetup. I'm worried about her.
posted by lukemeister at 6:01 PM on April 13, 2009

eattheweak - you can fuck right off.
posted by nadawi

Classy.
posted by scody at 6:01 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

The OP better hope that anyone else wishing to help answer doesn't read the first half, or they may well get put off.

I was.

But then for the immigrants I've known the work permit/visa thing was the biggest issue with coming here. Not just getting here but with their experience of being here. The NZ government really doesn't give a shit about you, you can't change jobs easily (assuming you even find one), and there won't be much support given to you (certainly no free health care or subsidised education). It was made very clear early on that the askers had no clue about visas and didn't want to hear about it so I figured why bother? Since I was only going to get rudeness in reply for bringing it up again.
posted by shelleycat at 6:07 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

Hoo boy, Jake the Muss isn't gonna take very kindly to these two.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:12 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

I revealed my handle to my SO by showing him my profile. I regret it now that I can't post about him but I was really excited when someone "favourited" me for the first time and felt compelled to share :)
posted by cranberrymonger at 6:18 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

lukemeister: "My wife, who is not on Metafilter, is starting to show an unnatural interest in attending a meetup. I'm worried about her."

I've occasionally had friends, worried about my safety at an internet thing, offer to accompany me to a meetup. These suggestions were usually met with horror.
posted by Phire at 6:18 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

I can't imagine dating a MeFite. If we broke up, I'd feel really awkward about them being on the site that I see as my relaxation place.

Kattullus introduced me to TheFilter before we were married. And then we got married. And then we got divorced.

I have no idea what awkwardness percentage exists when we both appear in a thread at this point, and I certainly did *try* to give him TheFilter in the divorce, since I got custody of the cat... but I was dragged back.

(I mean, honestly. I got an email from nickyskye saying she missed me. Nickyskye! How can you say no?!)

'moonMan on the other hand... yeah. There's a face. And eye rolling. But hey, he plays WoW, so he can shove it.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:19 PM on April 13, 2009 [4 favorites]

The OP better hope that anyone else wishing to help answer doesn't read the first half, or they may well get put off.

I was.

I was too, shelleycat. I moved to NZ never having been there before and *might* have had something to contribute to the thread, but I didn't really want to get told that my input was crap, so didn't bother.
posted by different at 6:25 PM on April 13, 2009

I have no idea what awkwardness percentage exists when we both appear in a thread at this point

I'm being totally non-snarky here and not wanting to be mean at all, but: more than there would be if you didn't broach the subject fairly regularly. I know it's your life and it's mefi-related and prompts aren't hard to find, but you do seem to reference it a lot, you know?
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:30 PM on April 13, 2009 [13 favorites]

When I met Ob, I introduced myself with a friendly ball-grope, and he got all weird and stand-offish. So, to make him feel at home, I called him a toffee-nosed git and headbutted him in the face.

Naughty, naughty. No ball-groping before May Day! Oh, how we chortled afterwards!

And then both simultaneously glassed a Canadian to show that there were no hard feelings.
posted by ob at 6:32 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

To be honest, I think the bigger problem is that a lot of titles just aren't available here,

It depends - Unity can get me anything I want, and it arrives about the same time and cost as it would via Amazon for hardcovers or more obscure paperbacks. What stings is the cost of ordinary books - the Terry Pratchetts and whatnot.

The NZ government really doesn't give a shit about you, you can't change jobs easily (assuming you even find one), and there won't be much support given to you (certainly no free health care or subsidised education).

On the other hand, once you're a resident, you get to vote, even without taking up citizenship.
posted by rodgerd at 6:32 PM on April 13, 2009

On the other hand, once you're a resident, you get to vote, even without taking up citizenship.

AFAIK you have to be a permanent resident (ie have permanent resident status), not merely resident.
posted by different at 6:39 PM on April 13, 2009

It is always:

States ranked for something bad:
#1 Mississippi
#2 South Carolina
.
.
.

Occasionally, Arkansas beats us out.
posted by BigSky at 6:40 PM on April 13, 2009

cortex: I guess it's just seemed relevant, and I'd never really thought of it as coming up "a lot" - but that's probably just because I have this nasty habit of talking about myself. I mean that honestly, it's something that I work on even in "meat space" blah blah blah, look I'm talking about me again. It's like the spawn of some drunken tryst between narcissism and free-association.

In other words: so noted.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 6:42 PM on April 13, 2009 [5 favorites]

It depends - Unity can get me anything I want

Fair enough. Wellington is awesome, it's true. It just makes me sad that the bookstores near me don't even usually stock Pratchett.
posted by narrativium at 6:55 PM on April 13, 2009

The question was worded perfectly well.

Yeah, it was fine. But you know what? There was supplemental information that swamped the main part of the question. These two have never left the frikking country, and they're thinking of moving somewhere permanently.

The positives and negatives of New Zealand are incidental to the potential problems they are facing. What's worse, that New Zealanders are standoffish, or that the two asking the question may hate living in any foreign country?

Here's their question, in a completely different sphere

Do any cultures consider the elephant to be a taboo symbol?
-----
The thing is, I really want to get a giant elephant tattooed on my back (with the trunk extended around my shoulder to my collarbones), but I'm worried that the elephant might have negative symbolism in certain cultures. Before I get too involved in planning my tattoo I wanted to make sure the elephant would be an okay image.

I've never gotten a tattoo or done any body modification before. I have fair skin and only a small amount of body hair, none on my back.

Why is this a terrible plan?

In my opinion, anyone who did not address the retardedness of moving to another country when you have no travel experience would be doing a disservice. They could just as easily have written something like "New Zealand sounds like an ideal place to live. Everything I've heard about it -- the isolation, the island aspect, the temperature, the average standard of living, the geography/terrain, the beauty -- makes it sound like paradise. So, what are the negatives of living in New Zealand (if there are any)?" The additional information they included about themselves was noise and the "never left the country" was the exclamation point that drowned out the main question. It was impossible to not read the "Why is this a terrible plan?" as referring more to them rather than to New Zealand in particular.
posted by Deathalicious at 6:58 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

This thread had something for everyone - Arrogance, chlamydia, comedy, compassion, defensiveness, drama, flame outs, international intrigue, interpersonal conflict, marital dynamics, pile-ons, self-evaluation, shenanigans and statistical information.
posted by jerseygirl at 7:00 PM on April 13, 2009 [8 favorites]

at least half my class got knocked out by nausea.

The word or the symptom?

The word. How the hell can you sound that out? I was praying some spelled it correctly before it got to me. They didn't and me and ten more kids all failed to spell it right.
posted by nooneyouknow at 7:01 PM on April 13, 2009

you're beached, brew.
posted by msconduct at 7:04 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

This thread had something for everyone - Arrogance, chlamydia, comedy, compassion, defensiveness, drama, flame outs, international intrigue, interpersonal conflict, marital dynamics, pile-ons, self-evaluation, shenanigans and statistical information.

Indeed, but perhaps it could use a little bit more... flavor? color?

*adds a sprinkling of cilantro on top of thread to garnish*
posted by NikitaNikita at 7:21 PM on April 13, 2009

On postview: what cadge said, only more succinctly.
posted by Deathalicious at 7:21 PM on April 13, 2009

...since I got custody of the cat

Wait...you wanted the dickhead cat?
posted by mullacc at 7:29 PM on April 13, 2009

I went out with Chlamydia in high school.
She said she'd sprung fully formed from the brow of Zeus.
I discovered that was a lie.
All lies.

*sniff*
posted by Floydd at 7:31 PM on April 13, 2009

I think that elephant tattoo is a great idea, Deathalicious.
posted by box at 7:35 PM on April 13, 2009

*adds a sprinkling of cilantro on top of thread to garnish*

You can fuck right off too weedeater.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:39 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

Don't worry about chlamydia. We all got fed up with pissing razor blades and when it didn't go away we went to the clinic and got a script for a 10 day course of Augmentin. We're a bit embarassed about that and can we move on now please? Also tell Tracy we're sorry.

Furthermore, Ubu is an Australian, and that's why he's bitter. I mean, nobody even has to ask what's wrong with Australia...
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:41 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

If I might toot my own horn a little here, here is an example of a "Tell me what you hate" thread that went rather well. I was (still am, actually) considering getting an MLIS and I asked the MeFibrarian Brigade to tell me the bad parts about being a librarian.

I think the big differences between my question and nadawi's was that I avoided too much backstory (I could have talked about how I would be commuting to Simmons from Cape Cod, which I knew would get me nothing but Southeast Expressway traffic and Fenway parking horror stories) and I didn't try to manage the thread (except for providing a little bit of clarification when specifically asked). That last one was hard. I actually tried to avoid MetaFilter for as long as possible to let the answers pile up.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:44 PM on April 13, 2009

The thread yesterday about book recommendations, and now this?

Are you talking about this thread?. A couple of differences. First, the question was very clearly articulated and had a good focus. Second, looks like only wfrgms went off track, and his reply was totally off-kilter: You can't remember history the way I do, maybe you are mentally ill. Finally, Nattie's reply was totally classy, and helped to clarify the issue without seeming defensive.

I sympathize with getting crappy answers. It's happened to me. But really, you just let them go. Remember, you have best answers to reward the good answerers.

Cool thread, by the way.
posted by Deathalicious at 8:22 PM on April 13, 2009

I think that elephant tattoo is a great idea, Deathalicious.

box, please stick to the question: is the Elephant an acceptable symbol or not?
posted by Deathalicious at 8:23 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

The additional information they included about themselves was noise and the "never left the country" was the exclamation point that drowned out the main question.

The additional information did not hold a gun to anyone's head and force them to comment in the thread.

In my opinion, anyone who did not address the retardedness of moving to another country when you have no travel experience would be doing a disservice.

I think they would actually be performing a service--the service of answering only the question that was asked, not the question that they'd like to pretend was asked.

Nowhere in that question did the asker(s) say, or even imply, that they intended to move somewhere without visiting first. In order to infer that, you have to assume that the askers are total idiots. Why on earth would you do that? Easy: because if you gave them the benefit of the doubt, then you wouldn't get to show off your wisdom in the thread.

Hey, showing off your wisdom is part of the AskMe game. I don't think anyone can honestly deny that that's part of the attraction. But if you're not restricted to answering only the actual question, then there's nothing to stop you from showing off everywhere, whether you're being helpful or not. If you're going to second-guess the asker, deny them the benefit of the doubt, and pick apart their every word, you can find an opening in any question. The AskMe guidelines keep everyone honest. They are good guidelines. People should follow them.
posted by equalpants at 8:42 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

When will people learn that elephants aren't just for diwali? They're a pet for life :(
posted by boo_radley at 8:49 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

Huh? What? Since when was I bitter?

except when people insist on calling coriander "cilantro". fuck, what a stupid sounding word. it sounds like some kind of small japanese SUV.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:50 PM on April 13, 2009

Wait... coriander is the fruit and cilantro is the leaves... right? I mean... that's the difference?
posted by Kattullus at 8:55 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

The amount of hazing and nonsequitor incontinence in this and quite a few MeTa threads makes it quite difficult to talk about the subject in question.
posted by peter_meta_kbd at 8:57 PM on April 13, 2009

Seriously, equalpants? They derailed the question.

N&R: We want to move to Mars. Tell us why we'll hate it there. Because we love Mars even though we've never even been out of East LA. Neither of have a telescope. We aren't astronauts and have no skills applicable to space exploration, nor have we done any research on Mars, aside from seeing a shown on PBS with some cool rovers. Why isn't this a good idea?

Metafilter: Well...you might want to rethink your plans. Nobody on Earth has been to Mars and no country has any manned missions planned. We're decades away from putting anybody on Mars and the people that do go will be highly skilled astronauts with years of training and strong scientific backgrounds. There exists no infrastructure to support any human life and even if there were, getting to Mars would be a hugely expensive undertaking that would require a lot more preparation on your parts than a whim.

N&R: Answer the question, assholes! Why would we hate Mars?

Metafilter: Uh...it's cold as hell. It takes months to get there. And the latency of the internet connection makes playing first person shooters basically suck. Seriously, though, you really aren't going to be getting to Mars any time soon.

N&R: No thanks for all your help. Meta, bitches.

It goes downhill from there.
posted by 6550 at 8:59 PM on April 13, 2009 [3 favorites]

The amount of hazing and nonsequitor incontinence in this and quite a few MeTa threads makes it quite difficult to talk about the subject in question.

There are special products for the incontinence, but cortex refuses to wear them.
posted by scody at 9:03 PM on April 13, 2009

The amount of hazing and nonsequitor incontinence in this and quite a few MeTa threads makes it quite difficult to talk about the subject in question.

One thing that occurred to me while following this thread was how much more gently everyone treated a certain new member than they did these older members, for similarly obtuse-then-defensive-then-jerky behavior. I'll just be over here, being grateful for you.
posted by palliser at 9:07 PM on April 13, 2009 [8 favorites]

Speaking of nonsequitor incontinence, I'm just glad to have proof that I was right! Some New Englanders are proud to call themselves Yankees!
posted by amelioration at 9:09 PM on April 13, 2009

For the longest time, the signage in Aisle 11 of my local drug store indicated that one could find "Incontinents" there.

Stayed away.
posted by mudpuppie at 9:11 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

I once went to a drug store to buy continents but they were out of America.
posted by qvantamon at 9:16 PM on April 13, 2009

"The amount of hazing and nonsequitor incontinence in this and quite a few MeTa threads makes it quite difficult to talk about the subject in question."

Oh, fuck right off.

I've been trying to be nice to you, hell, nicer to everyone, but I made a fucking effort not to blast you for your whiny, weepy bullshit. Did you take even five fucking minutes to acclimate yourself? Didja think, hey, there's a fucking culture here, maybe I better observe it? Maybe I better look back at, say, every other fucking thread that deals with the same sandy-taint complaints that I have before wondering why everyone doesn't hew to my definition of chatfilter?

Here's the fucking clue-by-four: It's not hazing. It's community norms asserting themselves when assholes who can't be bothered to pick this shit up through friendly means assert that things should change now, and the non sequitors are a polite way of saying, You don't get it so I'm not going to bother.

God, are you so used to being pandered to that you don't understand why people won't?
posted by klangklangston at 9:32 PM on April 13, 2009 [26 favorites]

Wait, I'm confused. I scrolled up the thread here to look for what offending comment from EatTheWeak prompted the suggestion that nadawi proffered. I saw "Good times indeed".

Did I miss something?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:35 PM on April 13, 2009

Did I miss something?

Some hint here
posted by pompomtom at 9:38 PM on April 13, 2009

My understanding regarding the leaves is that what we call cilantro in the US is called coriander (fresh coriander) in the UK and elsewhere. Everyone calls coriander seeds coriander.
posted by juliplease at 9:38 PM on April 13, 2009

My understanding regarding the leaves is that what we call cilantro in the US is called coriander (fresh coriander) in the UK and elsewhere.

And there was me, just yesterday, wondering what the godly fuck-balls Cilantro was. The mists of confusion clear.
posted by Brockles at 9:40 PM on April 13, 2009

Some hint here

Yeah, I saw that, but I still don't understand why nadawi suddenly lashed out like that. It's like an episode of Unexpected Outbursts.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:44 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

Marisa StPT: I think he was being sarcastic when he said "Good times indeed".

In other words, he was saying that they weren't good times at all, which is what prompted the aggressive reply.

also: coriander seeds are normally called coriander seeds where I live.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:44 PM on April 13, 2009

Since I spoke Chinese with my parents, and learned how to cook from my parents, I didn't know the English names for a lot of herbs and vegetables. In Chinese, coriander translates more or less as "vegetables that smell good". I was so proud of myself for figuring out - and remembering! - what green onion and coriander were, since I use those two herbs fairly regularly, and then one of my housemates started asking me if they could steal some of my cilantro.

Fuck you, English.
posted by Phire at 9:44 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

If "vegetables that smell good" = coriander, what do the Chinese call potatoes, specifically when they've been sliced into finger-like strips and then deep fried?
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:46 PM on April 13, 2009

...but only because all they have to do is google around for AUSTRALIA IS BETTER THAN NEW ZEALAND threads on Australian forums and they'll find everything they ever need

Seriously? People bother to write that shit down?
posted by pompomtom at 9:48 PM on April 13, 2009

Seriously, equalpants? They derailed the question.

Yes, seriously. Go back and look at the question again. In the actual question, all they said was "we've been throwing the idea of new zealand back and forth", and a couple of responses later they said "we just want to know what other folks DON'T like about NZ so we can weigh that with what we asbolutely love about it." That last bit is admittedly a little naive-sounding, but the early answers acted as if they were ignorant of fundamental things:

CunningLinguist said "You really should take at least one trip out of your home country before moving across the world. Also, you can't just go live in NZ. There are visas and work permits and what have you." The question did not say that they planned to move without visiting first; CunningLinguist assumed that. The question did not imply any ignorance of visas--in fact, they specifically mentioned that they'd never been in trouble with the law, and that they had specific job skills, implying that they knew there were entry requirements.

Foci for Analysis said "I think you atleast need to visit NZ for a couple of weeks/months and see how you like it." Again, they said nothing about not visiting first; Foci for Analysis assumed that.

I don't remember what the deleted comment in between radiosilents's first and second comment said. I do recall thinking that it was even worse than the other answers, but maybe I'm wrong.

I don't think the askers derailed the question. I think those early answerers did, by uncharitably assuming that the askers were morons and responding accordingly. I wish people would stop assuming the worst about askers, is all I'm saying. (Hell, it's barely been a day since the last MeTa thread about this!)
posted by equalpants at 9:48 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

shelleycat and there won't be much support given to you [as immigrants] (certainly no free health care or subsidised education)

The couple will find NZ not so different from the US after all!
posted by mlis at 9:49 PM on April 13, 2009 [2 favorites]

In other words, he was saying that they weren't good times at all, which is what prompted the aggressive reply.

Oh wow. Really? It's a shame senseless grudge-holding is illegal in New Zealand.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:49 PM on April 13, 2009

Is New Zealand incontinence? I'm sure Australia doesn't want it, and the Kiwis have turned down an offer from Antarctica.
posted by lukemeister at 9:59 PM on April 13, 2009

Uburoivas: coriander seeds are normally called coriander seeds where I live.

What's really fucked up is that coriander seeds are actually the dried fruit of the coriander plant.

Yeah... fuck you, English.
posted by Kattullus at 10:03 PM on April 13, 2009

I like coriander.
posted by pompomtom at 10:20 PM on April 13, 2009 [1 favorite]

One thing to consider when you're asking a question about a faraway place: it's probably most efficient to post at near-peak hours local time, if you can swing it. As it is, the question was posted at 6 AM, New Zealand Time. It seems that most of the drama happened before anyone who is currently living in New Zealand wrote an answer. When current Kiwis did see the post, they posted quite detailed answers.

So mind local time.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:29 PM on April 13, 2009

That last bit is admittedly a little naive-sounding, but the early answers acted as if they were ignorant of fundamental things:

But that's because the question was so obviously ignorant of fundamental things. All that starry eyed bullshit about living on an island and how pretty it is blah blah. Hint: being on an island? Not that special. NZ isn't some dot in the ocean, not everyone lives by the beach. Misty eyed sentimentalism isn't a good basis for making life decisions but so far that's all I see with this couple.

Getting a work permit and a job is going to be the biggest issue facing any new immigrant to NZ, that's a pretty big negative that they need to take into account. Also where they end up getting a job will have a huge effect, because the middle of Auckland? Not pretty. There should be answers pointing this out given they askers don't appear to have considered it at all. Even better would be if before posting rudely worded ask.me questions they did at least some research on their own first to find out what's possible.

I guess this is another cultural difference they may want to take into account. I found the whole question to be worded in an abrasive manner and their replies to be fairly rude too (including several of the replies that Nattie has said were 'polite'). I disagreed with a lot of the answers posted about surly NZers. I travel a lot for work and the people I meet are generous, welcoming, friendly, funny and able to laugh at both themselves and each other. But we also have respect for each other and seriously? Starting a question with 'how does this country suck' is going to piss any local off at least a little.
posted by shelleycat at 10:33 PM on April 13, 2009 [5 favorites]

The law against senseless grudge-holding is in New Zealand's best interests.

If the kiwis held grudges, they'd get into too much trouble with the French, who have the habit of blowing up NZ ships & knocking their team out of the rugby World Cup.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:42 PM on April 13, 2009

shelleycat: Well, I guess I agree that the phrasing was abrasive. And obviously the askers hadn't done much research (and said so). But I still think it's jumping to conclusions to go from "the question does not mention work permits" to "the askers haven't even considered work permits". Or to go from "the question does not mention visiting first" to "the askers are not planning to visit first". Come on, give them some credit.
posted by equalpants at 10:58 PM on April 13, 2009

Man, this could have been a lot less drama if we'd just told them to watch this NZ documentary.
posted by zamboni at 11:02 PM on April 13, 2009

Apropos the surliness - actually, that didn't bother me a bit. In fact I gave an answer using that word myself. Yeah, I know that we're lovable and nice, just a little on the quiet side (pre drink, anyway), and value doing nice things about saying nice things. But that's not necessarily what it looks like from the outside. I've met a few innocent visitors who've found the reserve off-putting, and don't recognise the humour that's under their nose because it's in an unfamiliar style. I would have posted a big answer trying to explain that, but I thought it would be a further derail in an already-wobbly thread.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:23 PM on April 13, 2009

Unsurprisingly, there are heaps of kiwis in Sydney, and I've never found them to be very surly or reserved. Those with maori blood usually strike me as being particularly gentle & friendly, quite in contrast to the Jake the Muss character. More like that cartoon, Bro Town (?).

Then again, I probably meet them in pubs as often as not, so that might explain something.

It'd probably be different from an American perspective, though. Most Americans I've met seem to feel some kind of obligation to rush in and fill the tiniest gaps in conversation, as though it's a great shame or embarassment for people not to keep the conversational ball rolling all the freaking time. Aussies & kiwis alike seem more at ease with just sitting back and chilling during any lulls in conversation, which could be mistaken for reserve.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:49 PM on April 13, 2009

zamboni - that's not documentary, silly. it's a porno.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:13 AM on April 14, 2009

Some Kiwi has to take Ubu up on his Rugby troll, come on. Are you going to let this stand?

This will prove immensely frustrating, because in spite of their reputation, they rarely manage to win any major international tournaments.

The entire country goes into mourning for a month or so every time the team is ejected from the World Cup, which explains the origin of their name.
posted by afu at 12:21 AM on April 14, 2009

afu: I've already put a calendar note to MeFiMail him as soon as we win the World Cup in 2011....

Oh, come on, who am I kidding? We'll lose two out of the next 40 games, and then choke in the Cup. Most probably against France. He's right. That's what hurts.
posted by Infinite Jest at 12:24 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

New Zealand is the home of the Maori haka dance.
posted by Meatbomb at 1:20 AM on April 14, 2009

Incidentally, it's absolutely true, in base13

I wonder if anybody else has noticed that in the Melways map of Melbourne, on map 42 at grid reference 2A, is Arthur St.
posted by flabdablet at 3:07 AM on April 14, 2009

New Zealand is the home of the Maori haka dance.

Sufficient reason to save the place, in my view.
posted by Wolof at 3:26 AM on April 14, 2009

Sufficient reason to ~~save~~ invade the place, in my view.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:12 AM on April 14, 2009

Wait...you wanted the dickhead cat?

You're not the only one puzzled by this. EVERYONE is puzzled. She's a dickhead, but, y'know, she's my dickhead.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:21 AM on April 14, 2009

it's a haka battle, although it's hard to tell who got served.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:23 AM on April 14, 2009

The question did not say that they planned to move without visiting first; CunningLinguist assumed that....

Again, they said nothing about not visiting first; Foci for Analysis assumed that.

CunningLinguist and Foci for Analysis assumed no such thing. "Visit first" is good advice if you are uncertain whether they already plan on visiting or not. It's like how the first response to "my computer isn't working" is "check to see if it's plugged in." It's not that the tech support person assumes it isn't plugged in, it's that the tech support person is uncertain whether it's plugged in.

CL and FfA did not assume that radiolawi were planning to visit first, which is different from assuming they were not planning to visit first.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:34 AM on April 14, 2009

Given that they are adults who have never traveled abroad even once and yet want to become expats, why would one assume they would visit first?

Come on, give them some credit.

You're right, I didn't. Still don't.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:20 AM on April 14, 2009

AskMe: Ask a question, get crabs.
posted by panboi at 7:51 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Crabs in a bucket, amirite?
posted by box at 8:20 AM on April 14, 2009

The only reason this thing can still possibly be open is for entertainment purposes, right? How in the hell can two individuals have the time to plan a move to NZ and at the same time continue this redonkulous performance in here? This has to be performance art. No one is this bored/has this much spare time.
posted by spicynuts at 8:28 AM on April 14, 2009

No one is this bored/has this much spare time.

We obviously don't work at the same company.
posted by desjardins at 8:37 AM on April 14, 2009

Oh, how we chortled afterwards!

Chortling is now my favorite word ever. More chortling please!
posted by Evangeline at 8:39 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

They have crabs in NZ–Huge, flesh-eating amphibious crabs! Or is that Gamma Cephei 6 Landmass IVb with the big crabs, I forget.
posted by Mister_A at 8:39 AM on April 14, 2009

desjardins: "No one is this bored/has this much spare time.

We obviously don't work at the same company."

You guys hiring?
posted by Phire at 8:41 AM on April 14, 2009

I was 30 before I learned that Carroll coined "chortle" in Jabberwocky. It was a frabjous day.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:41 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Hmm, looks like I was 40 before I learned that...
posted by Mister_A at 8:42 AM on April 14, 2009

I learned this at 41, and about 4 minutes after Mister_A did.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:49 AM on April 14, 2009

When I first saw the question on the front page I thought that it looked pretty dodgy and likely to turn into an Aussie jizzfest. Upon reading it further it seemed pretty confused and yes, full of starry-eyed bullshit. They started off from the premise that they knew what they were doing, even though they didn't.

I'll reiterate that those telling them to visit the place first were disabusing them of the notion that all English speaking countries are the same by telling them that they might actually want to go there (and btw, my vote for worst answer ever goes to Slap*Happy).

Really this was all of their own making; radiosilents got pissy right away an actually said this:
"basically, we just want to know what other folks DON'T like about NZ so we can weigh that with what we asbolutely love about it."

What do they love about it? 1) They never said 2) They've never fucking been there!

I rest my case.
posted by ob at 8:49 AM on April 14, 2009

I was 30 before I learned that Carroll coined "chortle" in Jabberwocky. It was a frabjous day.

Ha! I was only 29 (will be 30 in july)
posted by orville sash at 8:52 AM on April 14, 2009

You guys hiring?

Actually, yes, but there's that whole immigration thing in your case. Besides, you'd have to post a "what should I hate about the US" thread and that would trigger the MeFi apocalypse.
posted by desjardins at 8:54 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Those were good times then, eh Meatbomb?
posted by Mister_A at 9:00 AM on April 14, 2009

What do they love about it? 1) They never said 2) They've never fucking been there!

To be fair, there have been some pretty awesome commercials for New Zealand on the Travel Channel recently.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:00 AM on April 14, 2009

How in the hell can two individuals have the time to plan a move to NZ and at the same time continue this redonkulous performance in here?

It is possible "plan" is not the right verb here.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:07 AM on April 14, 2009 [4 favorites]

To be fair, there have been some pretty awesome commercials for New Zealand on the Travel Channel recently.

Wow, I want to move there now!!

No, seriously I have learned a lot about NZ from that thread and this. The 'tall poppy syndrome' is interesting and goes so way to explaining how, whenever I've met Kiwis, I've always felt that they out-English the English.
posted by ob at 9:13 AM on April 14, 2009

People actually take the time and money to visit places before they move there???

Well, it doesn't sound like a bad idea, but is that really required? I think us human beings are very well equipped to adapt to new environments.

Have a little more spontaneity people. :)
posted by sixcolors at 9:28 AM on April 14, 2009

Oh. Okay.
posted by jerseygirl at 9:29 AM on April 14, 2009

K.
posted by sixcolors at 9:30 AM on April 14, 2009

L?
posted by juliplease at 9:34 AM on April 14, 2009

MetaFilter: The spawn of some drunken tryst between narcissism and free-association.
posted by ZakDaddy at 9:35 AM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]

No way! Total accident!
posted by ZakDaddy at 9:35 AM on April 14, 2009

Wait, was she starting an alphabet thread there?
posted by jerseygirl at 9:36 AM on April 14, 2009

Come on, give them some credit.

No.
posted by languagehat at 9:36 AM on April 14, 2009

Spontaneity is dancing in the rain. Moving to a place you've never been is taking a big gamble risking a bunch of money, possessions, time, and happiness on a whim.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:37 AM on April 14, 2009

I think us human beings are very well equipped to adapt to new environments.

I could adapt to losing my legs too, I'm sure. I think I'll try and keep them though.
posted by rollbiz at 9:44 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

I knew all this thread needed was some sixcolors.
posted by desjardins at 9:57 AM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]

Many people confuse "spontaneity" with "poor impulse control". They are worse than Hitler.

That is nonsense.

There are good impulses and their are bad impulses. Same thing with planning ahead.

One of the best decisions I made in my life, going to grad school, was made on impulse. I applied at the last minute, and didn't do a lot of research on the program. Because of my lack of preparation, grad school had a rough start, but eventually I adapted.

I have two friends and several family members who spontaneously moved to a new city and wound up homeless for a little while, but eventually they all ended up okay.

And it is not like this couple is going to the jungles of Congo on a one way ticket. If they hate it, I'm sure they can move back to the states.
posted by sixcolors at 10:01 AM on April 14, 2009

You forgot [NOT CONGOIST].
posted by solipsophistocracy at 10:06 AM on April 14, 2009

People actually take the time and money to visit places before they move there???

It is rather helpful to securing such logistical details as finding a place to live. Renting an apartment sight-unseen, in a completely unfamiliar place...is not optimal.
posted by desuetude at 10:17 AM on April 14, 2009

I learned a thing one day before I turned 27!
posted by Kwine at 10:24 AM on April 14, 2009

I have two friends and several family members who spontaneously moved to a new city and wound up homeless for a little while, but eventually they all ended up okay.

Making a bad decision and randomly ending up with a good outcome is not the same thing as making a good decision.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:28 AM on April 14, 2009 [10 favorites]

That depends on what you define as a bad decision. It looks like in this thread any decision without planning ahead or testing things out is a bad decision.
posted by sixcolors at 10:32 AM on April 14, 2009

And it is not like this couple is going to the jungles of Congo on a one way ticket. If they hate it, I'm sure they can move back to the states

Why wouldn't they be able to return from the jungles of Congo? But returning from anywhere requires, y'know, money. They can't walk home to the United States from New Zealand.

It looks like in this thread any decision without planning ahead or testing things out is a bad decision.

Decisions not particularly requiring planning or testing things out ahead:

* Running out to the cart to buy a delicious meatball sandwich
* Playing on the internet instead of getting work done
* Tapping your foot repeatedly
* Taking a walk in the rain
* Countless other things not referenced in this thread whatsoever
posted by desuetude at 10:39 AM on April 14, 2009

Burhanistan: Many people confuse "spontaneity" with "poor impulse control". They are worse than Hitler.

sixcolors: That is nonsense.

Ah, so your school district didn't offer a course in Hyberbole and the Humorous Uses Thereof, did they? Pity.
posted by scody at 10:42 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

What do they love about [New Zealand]? 1) They never said 2) They've never fucking been there!

I'm sure they have seen a few Jane Campion films.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:44 AM on April 14, 2009

There's maybe a distinction (yay, distinctions!) to be made between the notions of good vs bad decisions and well-considered vs. poorly-considered decisions.

"Good" and "bad" are pretty fuzzy, and without laying down a really clear context for evaluation ahead of time it's gonna be hard to navigate that territory considering how much personal context and value judgment can ride in on those terms. You could argue about it all day and get nowhere if you aren't taken some responsibility for the terms of the discussion.

A well-considered decision the way I'm using it for the sake of this example is a decision that has been thought over. Whether it's good or bad or a middling compromise, some careful thought has been put into it. A poorly-considered decision, by contrast, is not one that's been thought over carefully, again regardless of whether it's good or bad.

A lot of people in this thread have been arguing, I think, from the standpoint that a well-considered decision is a better decision than a poorly-considered one, when the decision is about whether and where to move. You might disagree with that—maybe you value spontaneity significantly more than you value stability, maybe you prefer the thrill of impulsiveness over confidence that your decision-making is rational. That's fine; everybody has their own priorities.

But everybody has their history and their experiences, too, and it's harder in light of that to argue objectively that the folks saying "caution!" about international relocation are on the poorer side of the well-vs-poorly-considered continuum. The cost of a decision is part of its consideration; blanching at the idea of making sure the horse is before the cart and that an idea is feasible is the same as blanching at the idea of calculating your cost before you commit yourself to that expenditure—of time, energy, safety, happiness, money.

Thinking = bad is a hard sell around here, and post-hoc justification of those decisions that lead to good results as being by definition good decisions is weak reasoning. There's nothing wrong with being happy about the results of foolhardiness, but that doesn't make it not foolhardy.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:49 AM on April 14, 2009 [4 favorites]

Don't worry, teeps--I have a funny feeling that this is the kind of 'homeless' that other, less self-involved or more seriously suffering people might, uh, characterize differently.
posted by box at 10:54 AM on April 14, 2009

"People actually take the time and money to visit places before they move there???

Well, it doesn't sound like a bad idea, but is that really required? I think us human beings are very well equipped to adapt to new environments.

Have a little more spontaneity people. :)"

Still livin' with your folks?
posted by klangklangston at 11:02 AM on April 14, 2009 [8 favorites]

What a romantic world you must live in, where being homeless is one of those unavoidable things that happens when you follow your dream that ends up working out OK in the end.

That is not my point. Be homeless SUCKS. My point is that none of those people were found in the gutter or anything. We often underestimate our ability to adapt to situations we may find ourselves in. THerefore we shouldn't be afraid to take big risks fearing that something bad may happen. Even if something bad does happen, most of us are intelligent and emotionally strong enough to overcome obstacles.

I'm not here to flame out people, in fact I find this discussion pretty interesting. The type of thinking that people are promoting in this thread is so foreign to the way I think, and the way I was raised.
posted by sixcolors at 11:05 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Why wouldn't they be able to return from the jungles of Congo? But returning from anywhere requires, y'know, money. They can't walk home to the United States from New Zealand.

Sorry I overlooked this earlier, I'm assuming they have family or friends that will buy them a plane ticket home.
posted by sixcolors at 11:14 AM on April 14, 2009

I'm assuming they have family or friends that will buy them a plane ticket home.

A fascinating assumption.
posted by scody at 11:15 AM on April 14, 2009 [8 favorites]

The type of thinking that people are promoting in this thread is so foreign to the way I think, and the way I was raised.

Snark aside, this explains a tremendous amount about why life often seems hard or puzzling to you.
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:16 AM on April 14, 2009 [3 favorites]

A fascinating assumption indeed, and one that sheds a little light on that definition-of-homelessness thing.
posted by box at 11:16 AM on April 14, 2009

we shouldn't be afraid to take big risks fearing that something bad may happen

Agreed, but the flip side of that, what I was trying at part to get at with the long comment above, is that people usually benefit from thinking through the ramifications of a big risk before taking it. People who have taken big risks and come out the other side in less than mint condition usually develop a better capacity for evaluating risk on a personal basis as a result, and tend to be a bit more cautious and pragmatic and well-informed about the process of decision-making and risk evaluation.

Those very people often can take that perspective and look back at a decision they made and lived through and conclude that it was, in fact, a bad decision in at least some respects. Even if they live through it and are happy where they end up. It's not a binary thing, it's not EITHER take risks or don't, EITHER make a good decision or a bad one.

What you see as a foreign way of thinking may just be the way that folks come to think after they've seized on impulsiveness, gotten burned in the process, and decided that they would like to experience less of that burning sensation when making future decisions, big or otherwise, risky or otherwise.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:18 AM on April 14, 2009

Ok, "homeless".
posted by sixcolors at 11:18 AM on April 14, 2009

Sorry I overlooked this earlier, I'm assuming they have family or friends that will buy them a plane ticket home.

What you're describing is not nearly as big a risk as what most independent people are dealing with when they decide to move halfway around the globe. "Hey, I changed my mind, send me a few thousand dollars, kthxbye" isn't necessarily on the table for most folks.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:20 AM on April 14, 2009

I was going to weigh in here but cortex keeps on saying what I was going to say.
posted by ob at 11:23 AM on April 14, 2009

We often underestimate our ability to adapt to situations we may find ourselves in.

Yeah, based on what you've written here, I think what you consider "underestimating your ability to adapt" is actually "overestimating the desire of other people to save you from the messes you create." They're not the same thing, kiddo.
posted by scody at 11:25 AM on April 14, 2009 [7 favorites]

I'm assuming they have family or friends that will buy them a plane ticket home.

They've already stated that they don't, in fact, have friends. They're dreaming of escaping to an Island, so I'm doubting the close family ties. They don't make a lot of money or work at jobs that necessarily pay well or are in high demand to the extent that it will provide them with a safety cushion. It's unlikely from the information provided that the country they're asking about would even let them take up residence.

In other words, this is exactly not the type of situation where they would benefit from spontaneity. On the other hand, there is nothing in their original question or numerous follow ups that suggested to me that they weren't going to plan very carefully for whatever they decided to do. They just wanted a bit of insider information on a possible destination, first (internet fightiness, notwithstanding).
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:29 AM on April 14, 2009

Obviously much thought and planning needs to go into a big decision like this, but the suggestion(s) that the couple need to travel to NZ before moving there assumes they can afford to spend the extra thousands required for such a trip. With the advent of the internet such a trip is no longer necessary (if it ever was) since you can get masses of information from a world away (which it seems they were doing here in AskMe).
My father moved halfway across the world with a wife and 2 young children on the promise of a job interview. A big risk but one that paid off. I believe that a life without risks, and their resulting mistakes, is a life unlived.
posted by rocket88 at 11:33 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

A well-considered decision the way I'm using it for the sake of this example is a decision that has been thought over. Whether it's good or bad or a middling compromise, some careful thought has been put into it. A poorly-considered decision, by contrast, is not one that's been thought over carefully, again regardless of whether it's good or bad.

I guess the way I would categorize it would be:

Good decision: Decision that, given the information available to you, would be likely to result in a better expected outcome than other possible decisions.
Bad decision: Decision that, given the information available to you, would be less likely to result in a better expected outcome than other possible decisions.

I make the distinction about information available to you and likely expected outcomes because in real life it's usually impossible to know everything about a given situation and there is usually some amount of randomness that comes into play that can never really be accounted for. The way of measuring "better expected outcome" would vary from person to person as well. The point is that a good decision is about thinking about your options, doing your best to predict the possible results, and choosing the best option based on the perceived results. What happens afterwards doesn't really determine whether or not it was a good decision. If you play one round of Russian Roulette you have a 5/6 chance of surviving, but just because you don't end up blowing your brains out doesn't mean it was a good decision.

The reason why I have all of this hammered into my head is that I play poker. Poker is a game where you have a limited amount of information about the game state, a very small set of decisions that can be made at any given time, and random but statistically predictable outcomes. Most of the game involves figuring out what you know about what's going on, making guesses about the things you don't know, and using all of that along with what you know about how the game works and how other people play it to figure out which decisions will be more likely to result in you winning the game. A good decision can lead to losing the game with a bad beat and a bad decision can win the game with a lucky break. But in the long run good decisions pay off more than bad ones. Just like in life.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:37 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

People actually take the time and money to visit places before they move there???

Incidentally, I have now moved to three different countries (Italy, US and Canada) without having been to any of them before getting on a plane and going. All of it worked out great, as it happened. I had, however, travelled pretty extensively before that.

Italy was on 3 days notice (but I had a job to go to), US on two weeks and Canada on about the same (but from the US). It's not all that impossible to do, but it does require being someone in the position of being able to dump all your possessions on the parents for an indefinite period, being fairly resourceful and adaptable and having a job to walk into. One that pays a reasonable amount (ie not a waiter or other service job).

However, I did spend several months (except for the Italy job, which was a total out of the blue thing) researching how I could get to these countries and applying for jobs well beforehand, all the visa requirements and knocked several countries off my list cos I couldn't get into them in anything like a timely manner.

NZ and OZ were on the initial list. It can be done, but it sure as shit isn't easy and you do, very much, need to be realistic about how you can get there and survive (mostly legally if you have any brains).
posted by Brockles at 11:38 AM on April 14, 2009

Anyone here ever been deported? Do they bill you for the transportation? Come to think of it, why does anybody ever pay for the return trip from a foreign country?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:44 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

How about pronouncing "cement" as "sment"? Sment??? "The road is covered in SMENT". What the hell is SMENT???
posted by BozoBurgerBonanza at 11:47 AM on April 14, 2009

The marvelous crime caper writer Donald Westlake (RIP, sniff) has a side character who "travels by extradition." He rambles around abroad, then confesses to a small crime back home to get a free return ticket.
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:53 AM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Many of have known people like this. What you don't mention is the incredible burden they put on others when they just "do" without planning out their moves.

This has not happened in any cases that I know of. There were people who have helped them out, but it was voluntary.
posted by sixcolors at 11:54 AM on April 14, 2009

My father moved halfway across the world with a wife and 2 young children on the promise of a job interview.

Yeah, my dad did that too. We moved to London when I was in second grade so my dad could paint full-time instead of teaching. Living abroad was a blast, and one of the greatest gifts my parents ever gave my sister and me.

However: my parents had traveled out of the country before, they had a measure of financial stability, and they had one or two friends in London to start with. Presumably your dad, given that he had scored a job interview ahead of time, had at least some similar financial or professional factors in place. Nadawi and radiosilents do not: they have no travel experience, no financial stability (and evidently no special skills or professional backgrounds to help them get decent jobs), and no friends in NZ.

So it's not a matter of GO ON, TAKE A RISK! vs. OMG NO RISKS EVER! It's more a matter of distinguishing between a well-advised risk vs. an ill-advised one. I mean, jumping off a bridge is a risk as well, but wouldn't you rather do it with a bungee cord than without?
posted by scody at 11:55 AM on April 14, 2009

Why wouldn't they be able to return from the jungles of Congo? But returning from anywhere requires, y'know, money. They can't walk home to the United States from New Zealand.

Sorry I overlooked this earlier, I'm assuming they have family or friends that will buy them a plane ticket home.

Why would you assume this? Would you buy a plane ticket home for friends who moved to New Zealand on a whim? I'm still curious about your assertion that the jungles of Congo is someplace from which one could not just simply return home, too.
posted by desuetude at 11:55 AM on April 14, 2009

You'll get eaten by cannibals, silly.
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:03 PM on April 14, 2009

A good decision can lead to losing the game with a bad beat and a bad decision can win the game with a lucky break.

Yep. And there's a couple things that come into this:

- Acceptable risk. There's big risks that you can afford to have go bust, and big risks that you can't. How you define that is a personal thing—ending up penniless and stranded in an unfamiliar city might be okay for one person but sound like a disaster to another.

Don't bet the farm unless you're okay not having the farm anymore. If romance trumps stability, go crazy, but make sure the bad breaks are actually going to seem romantic when they happen.

- Meta-evaluation of your own decision-making skill.

There are two kinds of smart poker players: the ones who know that they're good enough at making poker calls to come out ahead in the long run, and the ones who know they're bad enough at it that they don't let themselves get hurt by the fact that they're the mark.

If you're bad at poker and you love playing, you'd better either be willing to lose a lot of cash or be willing to keep yourself from playing poker. Sure. But if you're bad at poker and you don't know you're bad at poker, god help you.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:04 PM on April 14, 2009 [3 favorites]

You'll get eaten by cannibals, silly.

Only because they don't have any Trunk Cookies.
posted by scody at 12:06 PM on April 14, 2009 [3 favorites]

Incidentally, I have now moved to three different countries (Italy, US and Canada) without having been to any of them before getting on a plane and going. All of it worked out great, as it happened. I had, however, travelled pretty extensively before that.

The thing that really struck me while reading the thread was that an awful lot of the negatives about NZ listed also apply where I live. Or, you know, to a whole load of places outside the US. Doing lots of independent travel and being aware of all the differences in the world (not in a Benetton sense, and not thinking someone else can list it for you in any useful way) significantly reduces the chances of it being a bad, half-assed plan.
posted by carbide at 12:09 PM on April 14, 2009

Only because they don't have any Trunk Cookies.

I bet they have some really interesting Trunk BBQ though.
posted by chiababe at 12:16 PM on April 14, 2009

"we have basically no friends so no one to really leave behind".

No mention of family, but "no one really" would tend to imply that they're estranged from their families, so I'm not sure who would be prepared to bail them out.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:16 PM on April 14, 2009

Ok, "homeless".

Well, that sure clears things up. It's like being "pregnant".
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:19 PM on April 14, 2009

that makes a lot more sense now. become "homeless" as if you were a boozehound on hard liquor, but do it sober.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:27 PM on April 14, 2009

A "homeless" BEAST, that is.
posted by owtytrof at 12:37 PM on April 14, 2009

Um, it works.

Have you all not used training wheels when learning how to ride a bike?
posted by sixcolors at 12:39 PM on April 14, 2009

Please tell me this isn't going to lead into a story about drunk ten-year-olds on Huffys.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:41 PM on April 14, 2009

The state-of-the-art seems to be walking bikes, these days.
posted by box at 12:48 PM on April 14, 2009

gah, I almost caught myself trying to use reason in the face of insanity!
posted by desjardins at 12:49 PM on April 14, 2009

Quick, to the Big Wheels!
posted by zamboni at 12:54 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

I did not learn how to ride a bike using training wheels. I learned how to ride a bike by jumping on at the top of a steep hill and holding on until I crashed. Over and over, until eventually I could keep my balance long enough to make it down the hill without drawing blood. Coincidentally, this is also pretty much how I learned to drink hard liquor. And screw.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:57 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Please tell me this isn't going to lead into a story about drunk ten-year-olds on Huffys.

Fuck that shit! Please tell me it is!
posted by dersins at 12:57 PM on April 14, 2009 [5 favorites]

Have you all not used training wheels when learning how to ride a bike?

Only if training wheels = speedballs and learning how to ride a bike = piloting a 747.
posted by ob at 12:58 PM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]

Have you all not used training wheels when learning how to ride a bike?

Yes. This is not that thing.
posted by desuetude at 12:59 PM on April 14, 2009

Flo, you drink screws?
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:02 PM on April 14, 2009

oh, fuck it.

sixcolors, you're disproving your own point. Using training wheels is a sensible precaution to take when learning to ride a bike, just as visiting the country to which you intend to move is a sensible move.

Getting drunk != training wheels for behavior
posted by desjardins at 1:04 PM on April 14, 2009 [3 favorites]

Is this about me? If it's not, why isn't it? Can I make it about me?
posted by rollbiz at 1:07 PM on April 14, 2009

Sure. Rollbiz, why do you fuck everything up?
posted by Brockles at 1:09 PM on April 14, 2009

You know, cortex - I almost MeMailed you to ask you to add the "to" into that phrase, because I just knew some chucklehead would come along and "screw" with me. I didn't bother, though, 'cause I had a side bet with myself that it would be you. I win a screwdriver.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:09 PM on April 14, 2009

I learned to screw on a bike after drinking hard liquor.
No training wheels, though.
posted by rocket88 at 1:13 PM on April 14, 2009

True Story:

I once had sex
posted by Mister_A at 1:19 PM on April 14, 2009

"Why wouldn't they be able to return from the jungles of Congo?"

"The horror, the horror."
posted by klangklangston at 1:19 PM on April 14, 2009 [5 favorites]

I lived in Paris for a while after college. I'd lived there as a kid; we had family friends there, I had a job and place to live, etc.

It was great - I mean, living in Paris! - but I realized after a few months that it was just like living in Boston or anywhere else (but with better food and architecture). Grocery shopping still needed doing; also paying bills; still had to go to work, etc. It cured me of romantic notions of being an expat.
posted by rtha at 1:23 PM on April 14, 2009 [3 favorites]

The do-it-drunk-first advice is not the instance of crazy that is most relevant here. It's this.

I'd add to this AskMe, "Why don't their parents just send them some money to get an apartment with?"
posted by palliser at 1:36 PM on April 14, 2009

What's this about a whore?
posted by owtytrof at 1:37 PM on April 14, 2009

You walked right into that one, Burhanistan.
posted by palliser at 1:41 PM on April 14, 2009 [4 favorites]

Please, please, please don't turn this into another sixcolors thread! I'm bored as hell at work today, but I'm not that bored.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:44 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Where's eyeballkid when you need him?
posted by box at 1:47 PM on April 14, 2009

You're thinking of an abhor.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:49 PM on April 14, 2009

Please, please, please don't turn this into another sixcolors thread! I'm bored as hell at work today, but I'm not that bored.

Ho...I mean, oh, it is too late, and NOT my fault. As usual.
posted by sixcolors at 1:49 PM on April 14, 2009

THIS IS THE SIXCOLORS SHOW, IT'S NOT THE COLORS SIX SHOW
posted by Metroid Baby at 1:50 PM on April 14, 2009

It's about time for radiodawi to make a reappearance.
posted by desjardins at 1:52 PM on April 14, 2009

CORIANDER TO THE LOT OF YESE!
posted by Mister_A at 2:23 PM on April 14, 2009

Oh, so you're yankees now?

To NZers, yer all yanks, regardless.
posted by goo at 2:30 PM on April 14, 2009

To NZers, yer all ~~yanks~~ septic tanks, regardless.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:39 PM on April 14, 2009

People actually take the time and money to visit places before they move there???
Well, it doesn't sound like a bad idea, but is that really required?

I wouldn't have survived living through a whole Icelandic winter had I not previously been exposed to part of an Icelandic winter. Ok, not every place has a mere four hours of daylight for two solid months of the year gradually going up to a full 24 for the summer, but I would argue that yes, it is a pre-req to get to know a place before moving there; which would include visiting for those who have the means to do so.

And speaking of means: my gourd, using the "friends and family to buy a plane ticket" as a reasonable sort of get-out-of-jail-free card?! Wow. That just smacks of an incredible amount of privilege. Class privilege for one, but also the privilege of people who have had the sort of friends and family connections where someone *would* bail you out. Granted, I've had to depend on this sort of thing myself, but I can say that my life is a thousand times better where I have worked myself into a position where I don't make the kinds of decisions that leave me hanging by a thread if they don't work out, and furthermore, have the resources to get myself out of the messes that I end up in anyway. I'm still far less independent than I'd like to be, but man, it's better than *requiring* a lifeline anytime I rack up a FAIL at life.

Having done any number of impulsive things in my life, I would say that just like an American military operation, an exit strategy should be in place BEFORE undertaking major decisions. Not after.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:49 PM on April 14, 2009

stop rhyming! i mean it!

anybody want a peanut?
posted by spicynuts at 2:50 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Not too spicy please.
posted by CunningLinguist at 2:55 PM on April 14, 2009

and as stated by somebody above, having at least a few thousand spare in the bank should be almost mandatory as an exit strategy - if one can't even afford a quick surveillance trip (say, on a special deal booked way ahead on a budget airline) then they certainly don't have the kind of financial buffer required to relocate across the world.

and it needn't be all that expensive to make such a trip. i've got a return fare from australia to peru booked for, um, around US$700, for example.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:56 PM on April 14, 2009

(via new zealand, by the way)
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:56 PM on April 14, 2009

Wait, you're Peruvian?
posted by desjardins at 3:07 PM on April 14, 2009

hey, has anybody else seen the movie, Wendy and Lucy?

it's reasonably appropriate for this thread.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:07 PM on April 14, 2009

Peruvian-Latvian would be an unusual combo.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:08 PM on April 14, 2009

You know, I almost hate to say it, but if you ignore the sarcastic and rude input by the actual askers, that AskMe thread turned into something fascinating. The discussion of Kiwi culture is really interesting. That stuff about the aversion to "bragging" sounds like a more intense version of a similar cultural code I've experienced in Britain and Ireland.
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:10 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

aversion to "bragging"

i think you see this most strongly when sportsmen are being interviewed after games - aussies & kiwis are all "yeah, it was good to win i guess, but we got lucky with a few refereeing decisions; the game could've easily gone to the opposition..."

if they're the man of the match, they'll spend most of their time giving credit to their teammates & to the coach's gameplan.

from what little i've seen of american sportsmen, my impression is that they come over more like "we came to kick ass & we did! eat our dirt, Denver, we're on fire & y'all are losers!!!"
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:20 PM on April 14, 2009

That stuff about the aversion to "bragging" sounds like a more intense version of a similar cultural code I've experienced in Britain and Ireland.

Definitely. Most of supercrayon's answer could easily be applied to Ireland.
posted by minifigs at 3:23 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Depends a lot on the player. One of the best things about having Clyde Drexler play all those years for the Blazers was what a no-biggie mensch he was in post-game interviews. Never bragged, never boasted, usually managed to say almost nothing and say it exceedingly nicely.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:24 PM on April 14, 2009

from what little i've seen of american sportsmen, my impression is that they come over more like "we came to kick ass & we did! eat our dirt, Denver, we're on fire & y'all are losers!!!"

You should check out NASCAR, then, oddly enough. They're surprisingly modest in the post-race interviews. Of course, they're trained to be that way.
posted by davejay at 3:28 PM on April 14, 2009

Oh god, yes sports types. Blech.

No, I mean more like regular stuff, like the person who posted to say she couldn't say the name of the prestigious school where she worked because it would be perceived as showing off. (I guess like some Americans who went to Harvard are supposed to just say they went to school "in Massachusetts.")
My Irish relatives often seem to treat any statement about one's life that isn't flat out moaning about how awful it is as an unseemly attempt to impress someone. And having grown up in England, I'm very sensitive to American-style bragging.
posted by CunningLinguist at 3:30 PM on April 14, 2009

                         M E M O R A N D U M 

TO:      New Zealand, Australia, United Kingdom, other Commonwealth
         (and former Commonwealth) realms
CC:      Metafilter

FROM:    America

RE:      Bragging


Bragging about not bragging is still bragging.

Just, y'know, fyi.



P.S. AMERICA RULES YOU DROOL

posted by dersins at 3:42 PM on April 14, 2009 [5 favorites]

if they're the man of the match, they'll spend most of their time giving credit to their teammates & to the coach's gameplan.

Yeah, Aussies and Kiwis both are great braggers for the team, but not great braggers for themselves individually. This bleeds through into many aspects of life - it's one reason we don't have the same culture of philanthropy as the US does, for instance. We don't like to stand up and say LOOK AT ME but we're happy to say LOOK AT US, WE'RE AWESOME.
posted by andraste at 4:01 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

That stuff about the aversion to "bragging" sounds like a more intense version of a similar cultural code I've experienced in Britain and Ireland.

It is the modesty and mockery and anti-authoritarianism of the British Isles combined with the consensus and teasing humour and group solidarity of the Maori. It has its good and its ugly side.

Bragging about not bragging is still bragging.

Well *duh*. But it's a classier kind of bragging. And you can rule my drool all you like.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:03 PM on April 14, 2009

Kiwis actually have a delightful expression for braggarts & arrogant showoffs: "they've got tickets on themselves"

I have no idea what the literal origin might be (backing themselves with betting slips? putting pricetags on themselves?) but it's come to be one of my favourite idioms.

Especially when pronounced correctly: "Thuyve gut tuckuts un thumsulves"
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:21 PM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]

we shouldn't be afraid to take big risks fearing that something bad may happen

But what so many Americans seem to not understand, particularly ones with the starry eyed attitude that is oozing from that question, is that you CAN'T just turn up here and expect to be welcomed with open arms. We have immigration controls, you actually do need to sort out a work visa and a job and all that stuff. It's also likely that you need a decent chunk of money just to qualify for a visa. If you don't do that stuff you won't be allowed in. So planning is 100% necessary. It's entirely possible that these people literally can't move to New Zealand regardless of how islandy and special they think we are. Sorting out the legal technicalities is the very first step, and to be posting abrasive shit on the internet before you've even bothered to find out if you can come is premature at best (note: it was very clear from their posting in the thread that they have not looked into this so no I don't need to 'give them credit').

Secondly they have no idea if they can get a job or where they will be living. We're a low wage economy and don't like hiring foreigners, it's entirely likely that they will be stuck in one place with no money for travelling around. And New Zealand isn't one uniform mass, the culture and the people are different depending on where you are. So many of the answers given in that thread don’t apply to where I live (the small minded provincial attitude with large dollops of intolerance is common in smaller cities but I don’t get it here), while so many of the positives they see about NZ also don’t apply here either (because, again, suburban Auckland isn't particularly pretty and people are definitely less friendly). As it stands the replies aren't helpful, the question is too vague.

I've seen their attitude before numerous times (it's an iiiiisland, it's so preeeetty). It wears thin. I see no reason to give them credit for anything except being rude and ignorant which is why I didn’t bother answering the question.
posted by shelleycat at 4:29 PM on April 14, 2009 [5 favorites]

Not too spicy please.

You can't tell whether or not I'm joking, can you?
posted by biscotti at 4:38 PM on April 14, 2009

from what little i've seen of american sportsmen, my impression is that they come over more like "we came to kick ass & we did! eat our dirt, Denver, we're on fire & y'all are losers!!!"

Respectfully, I don't think you've seen a lot of American sportsmen. In professional sports, media relations and giving press conferences and whatnot are all part of the training, so, most of the time, you'll hear some banality along the lines of "Well, we practiced hard all week, we had a good game plan, and everything just came together." The "I'm going to eat your kids" kind of stuff is the exception that proves the rule.
posted by box at 4:45 PM on April 14, 2009

"Yeah, maybe we bragged a bit less than the other guys today, but on any given day, anybody can brag less than anybody else, so we don't have any tickets on ourselves over that. We're just trying to stick to the plan of not big-noting ourselves, and taking it week by week. Maybe if we're lucky, and things fall in our favour, we'll still be around come September, but we're certainly not thinking about the Modest Final at this point..."
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:49 PM on April 14, 2009

(my impression of american sportsmen *might* have come from WWF wrestlers)
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:51 PM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]

They have crabs in NZ–Huge, flesh-eating amphibious crabs!

No, but we do have sheep-eating parrots.

Kiwis actually have a delightful expression for braggarts & arrogant showoffs: "they've got tickets on themselves"

The things you learn about from foreigners you've never actually heard in your own country. Well, well, well.

Of course, as a we-un, 'don't be a skite' was one of the harsher admonitions that could be handed out.

If you don't do that stuff you won't be allowed in.

Certainly showing up without the price of a return ticket won't get you very far. Hell, I probably couldn't qualify to move to New Zealand if I wasn't born here (not that it's unusual; Canada is one of the few places in the first world that's particularly easy to get into).
posted by rodgerd at 4:56 PM on April 14, 2009

My point is that none of those people were found in the gutter or anything. We often underestimate our ability to adapt to situations we may find ourselves in. THerefore we shouldn't be afraid to take big risks fearing that something bad may happen. Even if something bad does happen, most of us are intelligent and emotionally strong enough to overcome obstacles.

Yeah, this is just a stupid thing to say in the context of moving abroad. Jerry Garcia's dead, tour's over, and guess what? Countries have immigration laws. If you want to make your life miserable, by all means, fly on over to another country without any job prospects, with no legal permission to even work in the country, and try to make a living. Marvel at being paid a fraction of what a national makes, revel in your deplorable working and living conditions, thrill at your boss and/or landlord exploiting you because they can, because they know you're not going to the law. Or, you can spend a few months actually learning about the country, filling out paperwork, getting work permits, and a lot of other boring grown-up stuff.

This hippy-dippy notion of "spontaneity" with regards to moving to another nation is actually a great way to ensure you waste a lot of valuable time, and that your enjoyment of life is grinded down to survival levels. If you want to enjoy the experience, sometimes you have to earn stuff.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:12 PM on April 14, 2009 [5 favorites]

The things you learn about from foreigners you've never actually heard in your own country.

Hm, the woman who uses that all the time is from an older generation, and hasn't been back to NZ in more than a decade, so maybe it's archaic.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:29 PM on April 14, 2009

It's also likely that you need a decent chunk of money just to qualify for a visa

More than a decent chunk most likely. I'm just about to emigrate (hello Portland!) and most people are fairly stunned when I tell them how much all the paperwork is costing. Hell, when it's all finally done me and my partner will have spent more than enough to have flown me from the UK to NZ and back, with change to lounge about in luxury hotels when I got there.
posted by tallus at 5:58 PM on April 14, 2009

You should check out NASCAR, then, oddly enough. They're surprisingly modest in the post-race interviews. Of course, they're trained to be that way.

Well there's only so much you can show off about "well, I managed to turn left the requisite number of times and avoided all the other cars and the walls to hit my pit stop strategy" isn't there?
posted by Brockles at 6:00 PM on April 14, 2009

Oh, and this whole cockfight over who's most modest is pretty much irony in its purest form.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:14 PM on April 14, 2009

Only Norwegians use irony in its purest form, but we would never brag about it.
posted by Dumsnill at 6:22 PM on April 14, 2009

MStPT: it's not about being modest, it's about SEEMING modest.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:23 PM on April 14, 2009

Oh, and this whole cockfight over who's most modest is pretty much irony in its purest form.

Well personally I'm rather awesome. But then I think NZ is also awesome and figure that if I'm horrible enough to people wanting to come here they won't and I can keep it's awesomeness to my awesome self.

(I really am great)

(And that will be O for Awesome thanks)
posted by shelleycat at 6:42 PM on April 14, 2009

I don't want to move there, but I definitely want to visit some day, if only to see orcs.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:45 PM on April 14, 2009

/concurs that shelleycat is indeed OARSOME
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:48 PM on April 14, 2009

What I learned from this whole situation is that I will get shitloads of good askme answers if I babysit my thread, get testy with the answers I don't like, then make an indignant passive-aggressive metatalk thread about it.
posted by idiopath at 6:50 PM on April 14, 2009

irony in its purest form

well, that's funny, because irony plays no part whatsoever in our sense of humour.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:58 PM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]

Well there's only so much you can show off about "well, I managed to turn left the requisite number of times and avoided all the other cars and the walls to hit my pit stop strategy" isn't there?

If Mariokart has taught me anything, and I believe it has, it's that racing is not that easy.
posted by Ms. Saint at 7:10 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Well, sure, you've got to watch out for bananas.
posted by box at 7:12 PM on April 14, 2009 [4 favorites]

If Mariokart has taught me anything, and I believe it has, it's that racing is not that easy.

Agreed. Absolutely. But I was talking about NASCAR. It's about as much racing as WWE is actual sport.
posted by Brockles at 7:15 PM on April 14, 2009

Well, sure, but this is not irony, it is a fruit.
posted by Dumsnill at 7:16 PM on April 14, 2009 [2 favorites]

ubu: "having tickets on yourself" is pretty common among older Australians. Maybe she picked it up in Oz? I'm pretty sure it's a betting reference.
posted by zamboni at 7:23 PM on April 14, 2009

well, that's funny, because irony plays no part whatsoever in our sense of humour.

I'd favorite this if I weren't having Java issues at the moment. Which really sucks, especially right after getting things sorted with Borneo.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:27 PM on April 14, 2009

looks like you need a pacific rim-job there marisa.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 8:44 PM on April 14, 2009

But what so many Americans seem to not understand, particularly ones with the starry eyed attitude that is oozing from that question, is that you CAN'T just turn up here and expect to be welcomed with open arms. We have immigration controls, you actually do need to sort out a work visa and a job and all that stuff. It's also likely that you need a decent chunk of money just to qualify for a visa. If you don't do that stuff you won't be allowed in. So planning is 100% necessary

Yeah, Americans don't understand that to immigrate to the US legally, you have to do all this crap too. There's a pervasive attitude from the right-wing about "illegal" immigrants that makes people think that illegally immigrating is like, a hobby. That you can just do it. You can show up and deal with the legalities later.

It's quite quickly forgotten in these scenarios that a lot of people literally die trying.

To do it legally requires a hell of a lot of work. I've been on both sides of it and even if you do it RIGHT, you still might not be able to actually live and work in your country of choosing. To do this right, you need an amount of planning comparable to that of a space shuttle launch.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 8:53 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Ok, not every place has a mere four hours of daylight for two solid months of the year gradually going up to a full 24 for the summer,

Graprefruitmoon, this is fascinating! I always assumed that hours of daylight in the winter = hours of darkness in the summer. I need to do some research...make a little solar system model out of a flashlight and an orange...somehow wrap my head around this.
posted by not that girl at 8:59 PM on April 14, 2009

To do this right, you need an amount of planning comparable to that of a space shuttle launch.

WTF Metafilter? I was told today that I'd just have to be homeless for a while, then BAM! I can spontaneously live somewhere else with zero planning.
posted by jerseygirl at 9:10 PM on April 14, 2009 [5 favorites]

Or perhaps you could be in a space shuttle launch, then BAM! You can spontaneously be homeless forever.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:30 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

OH HAI, I IZ NOT STEREOTIPIKAL AMRICAN. I KAN STAYZ HERE PLZ?
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:29 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Canada is one of the few places in the first world that's particularly easy to get into.

True, but at Immigration you have to be able to define "icing the puck" while chugging a large double-double in order to qualify for permanent residency.

...this whole cockfight over who's most modest is pretty much irony in its purest form.

Our modesty is a point of Canadian national pride.
posted by angiep at 10:41 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

True, but at Immigration you have to be able to define "icing the puck" while chugging a large double-double in order to qualify for permanent residency.

Which border did you cross at? Man, they made me eat a bucket of poutine while answering Gordie Howe trivia questions just to visit Toronto for a weekend once.
posted by scody at 11:00 PM on April 14, 2009

I love you all*.

*as a collective; as far as individuals, I hate many of you.
posted by nonmerci at 11:09 PM on April 14, 2009 [1 favorite]

Oh, and this whole cockfight over who's most modest is pretty much irony in its purest form.

Yup, and wouldn't you know it, The Onion has a similar story.
posted by salvia at 11:23 PM on April 14, 2009

I always assumed that hours of daylight in the winter = hours of darkness in the summer.

Don't know if you're sarcastic but you are right. What it FEELS like, though, is 24 hours of light because you are usually asleep for those few dark night hours.
posted by Catfry at 11:59 PM on April 14, 2009

And go to sleep and wake up while the sun is up.
posted by Catfry at 12:01 AM on April 15, 2009

Respectfully, I don't think you've seen a lot of American sportsmen. In professional sports, media relations and giving press conferences and whatnot are all part of the training, so, most of the time, you'll hear some banality along the lines of "Well, we practiced hard all week, we had a good game plan, and everything just came together."

You forgot the God-bothering aspect of every other interview. Where everything from "remembering how to get out of the bed in the morning" to "crushing your enemies" is THE POWER OF THE LORD!

Fortunately this has not, by and large, infected Australasian sports, Anthony Mundine aside.
posted by rodgerd at 12:05 AM on April 15, 2009

Actually I must correct myself. The amount of time the sun stays below the horizon in winter equals the amount of time it stays above in summer, but while it is JUST below the horizon it lights up the atmosphere and hence some amount of light, so, at northern latitudes where the sun moves almost parallel to the horizon for much of the time, it can feel like there is some light while the sun is still down.
Hence it can feel like 4 hours of light in winter but 24 hours in summer, even though the sun is actually only up 2 hours in winter and 2 hours down in summer.
posted by Catfry at 12:12 AM on April 15, 2009 [2 favorites]

and with Anthony Mundine, it's THE WILL OF ALLAH!
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:14 AM on April 15, 2009

Ceci n'est pas une pipe ironique.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:36 AM on April 15, 2009 [1 favorite]

If you want to make your life miserable, by all means, fly on over to another country without any job prospects, with no legal permission to even work in the country, and try to make a living.

Odds are you won't even get that chance. You'll be spotted at Customs, questioned, and, if Immigration has reason to believe you want to enter the country under falsely declared reasons (and if they're questioning you, they probably do), put on the first flight back home. You probably won't even make it out of the airport.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:43 AM on April 15, 2009

"What's the purpose of your visit?"
"Visit, nothing! We're movin' there!"
"Uh, that's not how it—"
"We're spontaneous!"
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:43 AM on April 15, 2009 [8 favorites]

Why does every MetaTalk thread end up being about Anthony Mundine?
posted by Mister_A at 6:47 AM on April 15, 2009

You probably won't even make it out of the airport.

Or even the US airport for that matter. It is very hard to get onboard a plane to a foreign country with a one-way ticket unless you've got something better than a tourist visa to show.
posted by BinGregory at 7:11 AM on April 15, 2009

If variety is the spice of life, is spontaneity like.. and herb, or something?
posted by owtytrof at 7:17 AM on April 15, 2009

Spontaneity is the cilantro of life.
posted by jerseygirl at 7:18 AM on April 15, 2009

Spontaneity tastes like soap?
posted by catlet at 7:26 AM on April 15, 2009

Holy shit, where can I get soap that tastes like Cilantro?
This Lifebuoy is just awful!
posted by piedmont at 8:01 AM on April 15, 2009 [1 favorite]

Don't know if you're sarcastic but you are right. What it FEELS like, though, is 24 hours of light because you are usually asleep for those few dark night hours.

Which Iceland have you been to? The one I'm talking about is where the sun sets and immediately rises, which gives you ZERO hours of anything resembling "darkness" in July. I'm not exaggerating.

The corollary is in the winter when the sun rises and then immediately sets. Yes, the amount of "light" and "dark" are actually equal, but since in one case the sun hits the horizon and then rebounds right back up there isn't any actual "darkness" experienced and in the other, since it rises up to a mere few degrees above the horizon and then plunges down, the "light" that you're experiencing is merely the pause between sunrise and sunset.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 8:31 AM on April 15, 2009

I have read
this whole thread
yes I have

I have read
this whole thread
and I am glad

I have read
this whole thread
oh what fun

I have read
this whole thread
now I'm done
posted by ludwig_van at 11:13 AM on April 15, 2009 [3 favorites]

Odds are you won't even get that chance. You'll be spotted at Customs, questioned, and, if Immigration has reason to believe you want to enter the country under falsely declared reasons (and if they're questioning you, they probably do), put on the first flight back home. You probably won't even make it out of the airport.

Just don't take too many knickers to the UK.
posted by rodgerd at 11:18 AM on April 15, 2009

Isn't that "too many knickerses?"
posted by Mister_A at 11:21 AM on April 15, 2009

grapefruitmoon is absolutely correct about US immigration. It costs a lot of money and effort to do it legally. I'm sure that ever country has a different system, but wherever you go you can't just turn up at immigration right off the plane and expect your country of choice to welcome you with open arms.
posted by ob at 11:38 AM on April 15, 2009

"Pairs of knickers".

Well, I've contributed to society today.
posted by zamboni at 11:38 AM on April 15, 2009

We're contributing knickers to society now?

*begins to remove pants*
posted by owtytrof at 11:52 AM on April 15, 2009

Canada is one of the few places in the first world that's particularly easy to get into.

Maybe it depends on the province, because Québec was a nightmare trying to get into. Expensive and time-consuming, even with (albeit distant) relations living there, and being able to speak French and English. After a year of preliminary planning and then nine months of trying after I arrived, I found myself picking strawberries for a dollar a basket and thought to myself, "Where's this amazingly accessible country I keep hearing about?"
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:59 PM on April 15, 2009 [1 favorite]

you go you can't just turn up at immigration right off the plane and expect your country of choice to welcome you with open arms.

What are you talking about? You turn up, be homeless for a while then everything works out OK. If not, your friends and family pay for you to come home.
posted by panboi at 1:10 PM on April 15, 2009 [4 favorites]

"Where's this amazingly accessible country I keep hearing about?"

Je me souviens. (Moi seulement.)

Translation: Take the bus to Toronto.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:01 PM on April 15, 2009

Québec was a nightmare trying to get into

It's not North America's Europe just because of the old buildings.
posted by GuyZero at 2:13 PM on April 15, 2009

Or would that be "It isn't North America's Europe..."?

How does one properly shorten "It is not"?
posted by GuyZero at 2:13 PM on April 15, 2009

'tain't
posted by Sys Rq at 2:20 PM on April 15, 2009 [2 favorites]

What are you talking about? You turn up, be homeless for a while then everything works out OK. If not, your friends and family pay for you to come home.

Sorry, silly me. That'll teach me to post without having imbibed hard liquor.
posted by ob at 2:40 PM on April 15, 2009 [1 favorite]

Too right. In order to survive MetaTalk, you need to unleash the BEAST.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:20 PM on April 15, 2009

DAMN STRAIGHT
posted by ob at 5:21 PM on April 15, 2009

despite everyone's assumptions, we do plan to research any place we move to and we don't intend to ignore visas and the like. we aren't spoiled rich kids who have people chomping at the bit to give us a few thousand to undo any decision we made. we've both been on our own and supporting ourselves since we were about 16. we haven't disowned/been disowned by family and we aren't running from anything. there's just nothing in particular holding us here so when we discuss the next phase of our lives together we consider the whole planet and not just the country we're lucky enough to have citizenship to.

this has been very educational in ways i couldn't even imagine. i think it was summed up the best upthread:

I love you all*.

*as a collective; as far as individuals, I hate many of you.

posted by nadawi at 7:43 AM on April 16, 2009 [2 favorites]

I hate many of you

eyeballkid lite.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:49 AM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]

I love you all

Hey, that's my line! Which one of you fuckos is infringing on my intellectual property?
posted by Meatbomb at 11:39 AM on April 16, 2009

What in the world makes you think it's your intellectual property?
posted by the Cabal at 12:11 PM on April 16, 2009 [1 favorite]

It's the Cabal! Cheese it!
posted by Mister_A at 6:19 PM on April 16, 2009

*throws cheese*

(is that what you mean?)
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:00 AM on April 17, 2009

oh:

1. To run away.
2. To flee.
3. To scramble as if you just robbed a bank.

i liked the idea of flinging cheese better.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:03 AM on April 17, 2009

Ohhh. I always thought "cheese it" was equivalent to "damn it." This is the thread that keeps on teaching!
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:07 AM on April 17, 2009

Ah, and the theme of "distinctions" has turned full circle.
posted by jerseygirl at 7:48 AM on April 17, 2009

And now it is time for some Final Thoughts. In life, when there are difficult decisions to be made, what is most helpful is a little clarity. Sometimes that clarity comes through careful planning and deliberations, sometimes through impulsive hunches that just "feel right." Most often, however, I find that clarity comes best from having a bunch of Internet strangers yell at you for a little while. The bottom line is that while Tasmanian Devils may be cute, and accents are sexy; visas are a son of a bitch, and it's expensive to ship books. In the end, though, sometimes you just have to fling the cheese of indecision to the wind, and let the curds fall where they may.

Take care of yourself, and each other.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:43 AM on April 17, 2009 [1 favorite]

... and keep reaching for the stars.
posted by gleuschk at 1:57 PM on April 17, 2009

... and don't forget to fuck right off.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:12 PM on April 17, 2009 [5 favorites]

One does not simply walk into New Zealand.
posted by panboi at 5:25 PM on April 18, 2009 [3 favorites]

Well, not without getting rather wet in the process.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:34 PM on April 18, 2009

octobersurprise: Odds are you won't even get that chance. You'll be spotted at Customs, questioned, and, if Immigration has reason to believe you want to enter the country under falsely declared reasons (and if they're questioning you, they probably do), put on the first flight back home. You probably won't even make it out of the airport.

This reminds me of a couple of stories relating to UK immigration.

My brother flew with me to Austria via London. I was living in Vienna, had an Austrian work visa and my brother planned to live in my apartment so he could experience Europe for a while. In London, he was asked what the purpose of his visit was, and how long he planned to stay. He answered truthfully that he planned to go to Austria with me and see if he could find work. I had forgotten to tell him to just say he was going as a tourist and was visiting me. He spent a harrowing few minutes while immigration decided what to do with him. In the end he got a "must leave the UK within 24 hours" stamp in his passport, but was allowed to continue to Austria. He got married here (in Vienna) two weeks ago - almost 8 years after his initial run-in with UK immigration.

The other story didn't end quite as happily. My flight from Bangkok to Paris CDG was delayed, and I missed my connection to Houston IAH. I had an unplanned 6 or 7 hour layover in Paris. While on the telephone with my family, I noticed a guy having trouble operating the pay phones. I tried to explain to him how they worked, and learned that he was a Spanish-speaker. It soon became clear that he was completely lost. Using my rusty Spanish, I learned that he was from Bolivia. He had flown to London that day, planning to join a group of his friends there who were earning a living as street musicians. He was honest about his intentions with UK immigration, was denied entry to the UK, and was promptly placed on the next plane back to Paris.

So now he's stuck in CDG, trying to figure out how to get back to Bolivia. I accompanied him to an information desk at the airport and translated for him. Turned out, he needed to visit the Argentinian Airlines office, which, at the time, was located about a block from the Louvre, in downtown Paris. I gave him the information and pointed him to the correct bus. At this point, he started begging me not to leave him alone. "Please come with me or I will never make it". I was leery about leaving the airport and heading into downtown - I didn't want to miss two flights on the same day. In the end, however, I relented, and decided to accompany him. We took the bus downtown, and got out at the Palais Garnier (Opéra de Paris). I helped him locate the Argentinian Airlines offices. I waited with him there, while he got an appointment for the same day to arrange a flight back to Bolivia.

My flight time was quickly approaching, and I still had to get back out to CDG. My new Bolivian friend thanked me profusely for my help. "I would have been lost without you". He snapped a photo of me, and I of him. Then I hopped in a taxi to rush back to the airport. By the time I got there, check-in for my flight was closed. Fortunately, an airline employee had mercy on me, and rushed me through the process, getting me onto my plane.

BinGregory: Or even the US airport for that matter. It is very hard to get onboard a plane to a foreign country with a one-way ticket unless you've got something better than a tourist visa to show.

My brother had trouble with this several times. He would by a round trip ticket from Austria to Texas, and they'd always question him judiciously in Texas, before his return flight to Austria, about why he was traveling without having a ticket back to the States.
posted by syzygy at 4:19 AM on April 20, 2009 [4 favorites]

He would by buy a round trip ticket...
posted by syzygy at 4:23 AM on April 20, 2009

Say, did the DHS ever get around to putting the customs and immigration section of LAX before the baggage claim and/or the big wall of unguarded automatic sliding glass doors?
posted by Sys Rq at 10:33 AM on April 20, 2009

Damn. I really, really wanted this to end with MStPT telling everyone to fuck right off. Could you do it again, please?
posted by palliser at 1:07 PM on April 20, 2009

Fine, fine.

... and don't forget to fuck right off.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:40 PM on April 20, 2009

... and don't forget to fuck right off?

right thread this time, at least.
posted by dersins at 5:34 PM on April 20, 2009

I was in the right thread
But it must have been the wrong time
posted by Meatbomb at 12:11 AM on April 21, 2009 [2 favorites]

Yeah, it's easy to get into the wrong thread when you're on a Palm Pilot.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:38 AM on April 21, 2009

distinctions

the difference between "fucking off" and "fucking right off".

i used to talk about this with a friend of mine frequently. i don't think the distinction is recongized enough these days.

if i ask to fuck right off, and you amble away and grumble a bit, you have FUCKED OFF, but you have not FUCKED RIGHT OFF.
posted by ob at 6:56 PM on April 21, 2009 [4 favorites]

I prefer "fuck directly off."
posted by solipsophistocracy at 7:17 AM on April 22, 2009

I prefer "FUCKING FUCK yourself right the FUCK off!" shouted through clenched teeth, temples throbbing and the muscles in the neck quivering in rage. You should say this while your face is 1.5 - 2cm away from the message recipient.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:54 AM on April 22, 2009

Let us not neglect the classics.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:12 AM on April 22, 2009 [3 favorites]

No, let's.
posted by dersins at 5:25 PM on April 22, 2009

Fuck this and fuck that
Fuck it all and fuck the fucking brat
posted by koeselitz at 12:30 AM on April 24, 2009

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