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politics

Elevating the level of discourse
July 3, 2009 4:41 PM Subscribe

Why are comments like this and this not deemed totally unacceptable?
posted by Autarky to etiquette/policy at 4:41 PM (525 comments total) 4 users marked this as a favorite

Advertise here: Contact FM.

Oh God, this is going to be good.
posted by Elmore at 4:44 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

Good question.
posted by BigSky at 4:46 PM on July 3

well tkchrist's comment is pretty awesome and insightful as well as being schaedenfreude-tastic.
posted by By The Grace of God at 4:48 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

Autarky, why don't you start by telling us why you think they are "totally" unacceptable?
posted by jayder at 4:48 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

Why are comments like this and this not deemed totally unacceptable?

Because we're not HITLER, that's why.
posted by Justinian at 4:49 PM on July 3 [11 favorites has favorites]

Okay, I'll play.

Her voice is made up. Her personality is made up. She's a fictitious character. When someone puts that much effort into effusing "dumb bitch," don't get too upset when people notice.
posted by roll truck roll at 4:49 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

Has anyone seen my popcorn? I really need it right now.
posted by the littlest brussels sprout at 4:49 PM on July 3 [4 favorites has favorites]

I think you are allowed to disagree with them in the thread. Or have the liberals taken your rights away already?
posted by kuujjuarapik at 4:50 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Why aren't the folk on metafilter more like the folk in my bridge club? And can any of you folk help me get my virus spammer to work? Thanks guys.
posted by Elmore at 4:51 PM on July 3 [4 favorites has favorites]

Look, I had dinner plans that just got cancelled, so, please, go on.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 4:53 PM on July 3 [4 favorites has favorites]

lbrls hv tkn ovr thrfr cnnt spk. hlp!!!
posted by Elmore at 4:53 PM on July 3

You have to call conniving, manipulative, evil women *something*. Men are called bastards, while women are called bitches. I think some men take pleasure in being called a bastard (or an SOB), while some women take pleasure in being called a bitch.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:54 PM on July 3 [6 favorites has favorites]

Popcorn, beer and lawn chairs here. Free for all.

Tomorrow evening -- free fireworks at 10:00 p.m.

Please return the chairs to the garage when finished.
posted by ericb at 4:54 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

What? 'o' is also a vowel. What are you fucking liberals smoking now, you halfwits?
posted by Elmore at 4:55 PM on July 3

Autarky: "Why are comments like this and this not deemed totally unacceptable? "

Because disagreeing with Autarky -- in either an short and offensive or long and ideological way -- is not yet a bannable offense. Be patient, some day it will be!
posted by Plutor at 4:56 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

Autarky, I've actually noticed you trying to stir up shit here lately with your blah blah stop talking bad about republicans. I'll try to find the comment that got my ears up but you've just been itching for some big show like this, and now you have it. Enjoy, please. Because you bet your ass that I will.
posted by dead cousin ted at 4:57 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

Wait wait wait. What? Did anyone order the pizza yet? Where was I? Shit, this stuff is REALLY FUCKING STRONG.
posted by Elmore at 4:57 PM on July 3

Ah, there it is. Still reading the comments on metafilter, I guess huh?
posted by dead cousin ted at 5:00 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

I was worried about seeing loose "she's a total bitch" comments flying around, but the comment from contessa actually reads as less nasty vernacular version. And tkchrist is ranty and opinionated but that comment doesn't seem anything like beyond the pale.

I removed a completely gratuitous "retard" joke earlier while I was out at lunch, and I'm still catching up on the very-fast-moving thread. The last thing I wanted to kick off my 4th of July weekend was Palin suddenly making another appearance on Metafilter, and Jess is out and about a bunch today as well, so bear with us.
posted by cortex at 5:00 PM on July 3

"Palin, thou gorbellied tardy-gaited fustilarian!"
posted by Rhomboid at 5:02 PM on July 3 [11 favorites has favorites]

I may never have seen those comments. Thanks for pointing them out!
posted by gman at 5:02 PM on July 3 [6 favorites has favorites]

Actually, he's not rude at all (never thought he was, but some people could take real offence to his pro Dublin stance...)
posted by Elmore at 5:04 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Well, Autarky, I guess I'll try to answer by taking your question seriously.

First off, you have to have a deemer. For a comment to be deemed acceptable, unacceptable, totally unacceptable, someone would have to do something about it. Through the miracle of passive voice, you've missed an actor: who?

Who would deem it unacceptable? Your option would be a person, a roving posse of people (perhaps moderators), or some agreed-upon community standard coming from our Borg-like consensus. Let us examine each in turn.

The Deemer, as a sole person, would be very, very busy, reading each and every comment and then applying The Standard. A posse would be more managable, but then you have some kind of variance in there, because either each one would make slightly different judgments, or you'd have a codified set of rules for decision.

Borg-like consensus would be interesting; thus far, nobody has managed such a thing in the history of the planet. Oh, we've got laws, but just look at how wackily pornography standards have been applied.

So having peeled back the who question, what we're dealing with now is a lack of a Standard. A test, a set of rules, an algorithm to apply to each comment and see if it is over some threshold. This in turn applies something like a score, for there to be a threshold against which the comment is measured. And that's where it is very clearly arbitrary. No matter what number you pick for your threshold, it's still a choice, a compromise value, however you come up with it, because the Universe does not kick out constants for value judgments for us. You'll get the occasional Feigenbaum constant, but nothing about morality, niceness, and so forth.

Thus, the ugly truth comes forward: standards are decided by humans, one or more, and may differ from your own. This difference varies with time, person, situation, and whether or not that person has had a snack lately, amongst other critical factors. It turns out that the Universe and the decisions made by actors within it are not manifestations of you.

Hopefully you know that already, but it's kind of unclear, because you could have said, "Hey, I find this comment totally unacceptable, for reasons X, Y, and Z." Instead, you posited your complaint as a question wherein the Universe has failed to live up to your expectations, when you could have instead ...

flagged it, and moved on.
posted by adipocere at 5:07 PM on July 3 [49 favorites has favorites]

You know who else also liked to post a shit stirring post to MeTa and then fuck off and not respond to any of the replies?
posted by Elmore at 5:08 PM on July 3

Your outrage is lacking in Kermit flail. Flagged.
posted by elfgirl at 5:09 PM on July 3 [10 favorites has favorites]

I agree with the OP. Totally uncalled for.

Sarah Palin's not a bitch; she's a bimbo.

If you're gonna be sexist, you could at least try to be accurate.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:15 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

I'm not a fan of attacking Palin because she's a woman (aka: bitch!) I'm a fan of attacking Palin because she's a useless waste of skin.

That being said, flag it and move on.
posted by Space Kitty at 5:15 PM on July 3

she's a useless waste of skin

Great, another circumcision derail.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:17 PM on July 3 [20 favorites has favorites]

Because MeFi has a decidedly liberal bent and, as a result, making fun of conservatives/Conservatives and republicans/Republicans is going to be okay whether it's deserved or not, and whether or not the same comment would be okay if directed at a more liberal figure.

That's how the community here (in general, not in whole) likes it.

There's no rule, law, or general principle that states that every website and community must adhere to politically neutral standards of debate. Welcome to a left-of-center corner of the internet.
posted by toomuchpete at 5:17 PM on July 3 [4 favorites has favorites]

Why are comments like this and this not deemed totally unacceptable?

Because it's okay to make absolutely vile and frequently misogynistic comments about, say, Palin, Coulter, and Malkin, and then turn around and in the same breath accuse ideological opponents of unacceptably hateful speech.
posted by Krrrlson at 5:18 PM on July 3 [4 favorites has favorites]

American Flag it and move on.
posted by Elmore at 5:18 PM on July 3 [12 favorites has favorites]

This is as useless a place as any to say that I was a bit disappointed at the lack of interest in the S E Rogie post. That stuff is awesome sweet music. (I am not a PA sockpuppet)
posted by Elmore at 5:18 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

I want to be The Deemer.

but I can't spare the $5.00
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:24 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Come on people, Palin's self destruction is an event that should bring us all together, not drive us apart!
posted by whoaali at 5:24 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

Flagged as bitching.
posted by DU at 5:27 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

[Cartman singing voice]

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllll...
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:29 PM on July 3 [14 favorites has favorites]

I know it's the worst kind of blue-skying, but you know what I'd like to see? A smart, principled Republican Party. A party of men and women committed to small, effective government, individual liberty, personal responsibility, the rule of law, and diplomacy through the practice of firm negotiation, clearly stated goals, and an eye toward opening markets and economies. Such a party would be of great value. Such a party would force Democrats to stop haring about and focus on productive policy-making and defending with rigor and clarity the contents of their ideas.

Problem is, that's exactly who these MOUTHBREATHING, BEDWETTING MORONS pretend to be. And some folks buy what they're selling. Hell, whole media empires are built on their bloviation. But the reality is the ruling clique pulling the strings over at GOP Central are narrow-minded scared old white men who've mastered the rhetoric in lieu of the substance and who have committed everything they have to an essentially failed strategy of race-baiting, homophobia, xenophobia, and Christian dominionism. It's sad, really.

And that's why it's OK to call Sarah Palin a stupid bitch. On MetaFilter, in your local newspaper, in front of your rabbi's kids, wherever. Because the woman is manifestly unqualified to run an O'Charleys, much less the largest state in the USA.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 5:30 PM on July 3 [74 favorites has favorites]

Fine, I'll bite: I hate Sarah Palin's politics as much as any sane person, but it's clear as well that some of the rage being leveled at her is gendered, and that's disturbing. This "GILF" garbage, for example, is weak sauce: There's plenty of ways to criticize her without this nasty locker-room "I'D HIT THAT" shit, especially since there is so much you can criticise that's actually . . . you know, valid.
posted by Frobenius Twist at 5:32 PM on July 3 [13 favorites has favorites]

And that's why it's OK to call Sarah Palin a stupid bitch.

It would be really, really okay to choose to call her "a stupid person" instead, though.
posted by cortex at 5:33 PM on July 3 [33 favorites has favorites]

Oh jeez.
posted by rtha at 5:34 PM on July 3

Because it's okay to make absolutely vile and frequently misogynistic comments about, say, Palin, Coulter, and Malkin

You must not come to Metafilter as much, Krrrrrrlson. That stuff gets cleaned out often and fast. Or is the sky falling again?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:37 PM on July 3

"Bitch" is a gendered slur. Would you be cool with called her a "stupid whore?" A "stupid cunt?" I'm asking this in all honesty, since all of the rationales I'm seeing in this thread would support those as well. Why stop at "bitch?"
posted by Frobenius Twist at 5:40 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

It would be really, really okay to choose to call her "a stupid person" instead, though.

Shut up, bitch.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 5:40 PM on July 3 [15 favorites has favorites]

Weirdly, I'm not bugged by the "bitch" comment linked at the top of the thread. I don't know. Maybe it's because "bitch crazy" has its own connotation to it, and it doesn't seem anywhere near the level of venom usually used when referring to a woman (often a women in power) as a bitch.

It's a great phrase. Conveys so very much in two short words. Then again, maybe I'm just a big ole hypocrite. Fuck if I know.
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:40 PM on July 3

You know, if they're stupid bitches, call 'em stupid bitches. That's my policy, anyway. The wife doesn't like it, but sometimes she acts like, well . . .
posted by Shohn at 5:41 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

I can think of two bitches who had better character and more integrity than most of you people. One died when her kidneys failed and the other got spooked one night by lightning and jumped the wall and we never saw her again. People are either too happy to get excited or to brain dead to think about what they are complaining about. I would love to see either of those bitches again. They were beautiful bitches.
posted by Elmore at 5:46 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

Frobenius Twist:"Bitch" is a gendered slur. Would you be cool with called her a "stupid whore?" A "stupid cunt?"

At work, I call my brother a lazy bitch all the time.

From Princeton's dictionary: (n) cunt, bitch (a person (usually but not necessarily a woman) who is thoroughly disliked) "she said her son thought Hillary* was a bitch"

*You think they're talking about Clinton?
posted by gman at 5:47 PM on July 3

My stepdad's bitch is almost 20 years old. She's a much-loved family member and I expect she won't be with us much longer.

I'm not so much a fan of using the term to refer to women we don't like, though. But YMMV.
posted by darkstar at 5:48 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

From Princeton's dictionary: (n) cunt, bitch (a person (usually but not necessarily a woman) who is thoroughly disliked) "she said her son thought Hillary* was a bitch"

*You think they're talking about Clinton?

Ah, point well taken: And I'll wait for you to provide a link to a thread on the blue where a bunch of mefites gleefully called a man a bitch and a cunt.
posted by Frobenius Twist at 5:53 PM on July 3

I don't have a problem with calling Sarah names, but could we avoid going after her 8-yr-old daughter here please?
posted by marsha56 at 6:00 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

*You think they're talking about Clinton?

Sir Edmund, surely.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:01 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

This is as useless a place as any to say that I was a bit disappointed at the lack of interest in the S E Rogie post.

Problem is, there's nothing to argue about with SE Rogie. The music is uniquely sweet and spacious and wise and ... good. It shuts us up and reminds us that throwing words around at each other is hardly the best thing humans do.

Ms Palin, on the other hand, is uniquely sour, narrow and stupid and ... bad. And so on.
posted by philip-random at 6:05 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Sarah Palin's children experience enough grief just being Sarah Palin's children. Leave them alone. Of course, I also said the same thing to another community about Chelsea Clinton (and from what little I've learned about her, it looks like she's better adjusted than either of her parents).

As for Sarah herself, I wouldn't object if the mods did a Mass Replace of the word "bitch" in her treads for something like... "prick".
posted by wendell at 6:06 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

I call my male friends both bitches and cunts, and cocks and pricks, and gays and I even call them lesbians. I call them shits, I call them snots, I call them quick and I call them soft. I call them ballbags, cocksacks, saggy old prune bags, wobbly nobbles, thick stupid cunts, silly buggers, wankers, stupid wankers, stupid horny old idiots who will never have sex again morons, ticks and thicks, art-tards, nerds, wimps, losers, I even call them bitches.

I call my female friends cunts, and cocks and pricks, and gays and I even call them lesbians. I call them shits, I call them snots, I call them quick and I call them soft. I call them ballbags, cocksacks, saggy old prune bags, wobbly nobbles, thick stupid cunts, silly buggers, wankers, stupid wankers, stupid horny old idiots who will never have sex again morons, ticks and thicks, art-tards, nerds, wimps, losers, I never ever ever call them bitches. That would be going too far.
posted by Elmore at 6:08 PM on July 3 [6 favorites has favorites]

As for Sarah herself, I wouldn't object if the mods did a Mass Replace of the word "bitch" in her treads for something like... "prick".

her treads? surely you're not suggesting that jessamyn do something to her running shoes?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:08 PM on July 3

Do do dha dah do dah dah dum do do dah dah do dah dah dum do do dah dum do dah dah dum bum bum pum pumapum bum.
posted by The Whelk at 6:09 PM on July 3

No, see "Bitch crazy" isn't offensive because it strikes a balance between both racist and misogynist.
posted by ODiV at 6:14 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

When I was living in a college dorm in northern Michigan years ago a bunch of us guys liked to play euchre. When we told the dealer to pick up the trump card or whatever the hell it is called, we would say "Pick it up BITCH."

Then this girl started coming to our games. She was cool, and she had gotten a bunch of money somehow and would always bring a case of beer so we let her play too. But hat just really screwed up our "Pick it up BITCH" shtick.

Nothing else to add, I just hadn't thought about her for many years and this thread reminded me of that. I guess the lesson is that it is okay for guys to call each either "bitch," but don't call a woman that. And I'm fine with that.
posted by marxchivist at 6:15 PM on July 3

I think we can all agree that, more than once, Sarah Palin has pulled a dick move.
posted by waraw at 6:16 PM on July 3 [4 favorites has favorites]

No, see "Bitch crazy" isn't offensive because it strikes a balance between both racist and misogynist.

And offensive to the mentally ill.
posted by waraw at 6:16 PM on July 3

Frobenius Twist: Ah, point well taken: And I'll wait for you to provide a link to a thread on the blue where a bunch of mefites gleefully called a man a bitch and a cunt.

A bitch and a cunt? Like at the same time? Dunno 'bout that.

First example I found is almost as old as your account. You can continue on if you'd like.
posted by gman at 6:20 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

I guess the lesson is that it is okay for guys to call each either "bitch"

Your homophobia's showing.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:21 PM on July 3

This thread isn't nearly fireworkstastic enough for my taste. I was expecting so much more. It's like all you dumbass pricks and bitches all went and got civilized on my ass.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 6:32 PM on July 3

This thread isn't nearly fireworkstastic enough for my taste.

I sometimes wear a girdle so my pre-enbellying fitted suits will keep a clean line.
posted by The Whelk at 6:33 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Look, I had dinner plans that just got cancelled, so, please, go on.

Hey, me too. Wanna go pick up some bitches*?

*female dogs. I've got a hankering for Korean food.
posted by Item at 6:37 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

First example I found is almost as old as your account.

Well shit. That is a good example.

You can continue on if you'd like.

Continuing on does, indeed, give more examples of men being called bitches. I stand corrected.

What I found concerning in the Palin thread was that the word "bitch" was thrown around at the same time she was being called a "stupid cow" and other slurs. I'm not convinced that the context is the same when men are called bitches, but in any event I grant you the point, for reals this time.
posted by Frobenius Twist at 6:42 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

I wish Republicans were actually conservative. I think more and more that a compelling conservative voice would serve the country well.
posted by OmieWise at 6:43 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

This thread isn't nearly fireworkstastic enough for my taste. I was expecting so much more. It's like all you dumbass pricks and bitches all went and got civilized on my ass.

The fireworks are tomorrow night... Now snap out of your moonshine induced stupor.
posted by clearly at 6:43 PM on July 3

You know my comment was an homage to my accusation years ago that George Bush "ran like a little bitch" away on 9/11. Not that anybody but my self would know that (in that this "running away like a little bitch" is common to these self proclaimed tough guys and gals of the GOP. )

It's funny I even qualified it with being intended as "gender neutral" becuase I knew some dip shit would scream OFG UR SEXIST.

But you know, fuck it. I'm through caring or qualifying anymore. If you view the word "bitch" in every single context as sexist. I don't give a shit. I can't control how stupid you are.

"Like a little bitch" was meant as a pejorative. And if you don't like it, good! Carve "Mission Accomplished" on a bowling pin and cram it up your ass sideways.
posted by tkchrist at 6:46 PM on July 3 [17 favorites has favorites]

This thread isn't nearly fireworkstastic enough for my taste.

"Like a little bitch" was meant as a pejorative. And if you don't like it, good! Carve "Mission Accomplished" on a bowling pin and cram it up your ass sideways.

Mission accomplished indeed! 4th of motherfuckin' JOO-LY!
posted by Frobenius Twist at 6:48 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Think about why it's a pejorative

Now think about why it's seen as sexist
posted by kathrineg at 6:48 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

Wow, Autarky hasn't even been back to explain why these comments are "totally" unacceptable.

Classy.
posted by jayder at 6:49 PM on July 3

Think about why I don't give a shit.
posted by tkchrist at 6:50 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

Wow, Autarky hasn't even been back to explain why these comments are "totally" unacceptable.

"Mission accomplished."
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:52 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

Think about why it's a pejorative

Now think about why it's seen as sexist

Now think about a plate of beans
posted by elfgirl at 6:53 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Now, here is an unacceptable comment:

Bitch better have my money.
posted by Mister_A at 6:54 PM on July 3

Ooh!

MetaFilter: I Can't Control How Stupid You Are.
posted by Mister_A at 6:55 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Why are comments like this and this not deemed totally unacceptable?

There's a small upside to the term 'not being deemed totally unacceptable'. If you don't like the word, make note of who flings it around willy-nilly. Then you'll know who doesn't think very much before mouthing off. You can use that bit of information as you will.

Another example. I find it useful that it's not totally unacceptable to speak of "MF's obsession with homosexuality and gay marriage". It lets me know that the person who uses the phrase didn't think very much before using it (or just doesn't know what they're talking about), as, tag-wise, MetaFilter is much more "obsessed" with...

the Arts (music - 4158; Art - 3444; photography - 1922; books - 835),
America (USA - 1170; america - 536; US - 353),
international conflicts (Iraq - 1639; War - 1559; terrorism - 994; Afghanistan - 438; IraqWar - 326),
having fun (Flash - 1619; humor - 1077; games - 1056; animation - 702),

... and many other things than than it is with teh gays (gay - 461; homosexuality - 204; GayMarriage - 74; glbt - 63; lgbt - 31; queer - 26; SameSexMarriage - 18).
posted by CKmtl at 6:56 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

Happy 4th of July long weekend mods.
posted by ALongDecember at 6:59 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Why are comments like this and this not deemed totally unacceptable?

Why are comments like this and this not deemed totally unacceptable?
posted by Sova at 6:59 PM on July 3

You have to call conniving, manipulative, evil women *something*.

Dick?

Hey! Think about why it's pejorative, you. The dick is goofy looking? Hey! Half the words population has dicks! You sexist!

I guess "asshole" is the only word we have left. But then someone will come along who says we are unfairly stigmatizing people with ulcerative uolitis, Crohn's, and hemorrhoids.
posted by tkchrist at 7:00 PM on July 3

Funny, I don't really see her as a bitch.

I think of her as a liar, an idiot, a narcissist, a waste-of-space, a failure, a cheat, a money-grubbing shopaholic, an incoherent speaker, a back-stabber, an ego-maniacal hypocrite, and a lazy fame-whore looking for the easy path to fame and fortune. But not a bitch.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:02 PM on July 3 [6 favorites has favorites]

:O

This is my "shocked" face.

A bunch of dickmeasuring and scattershot derision over instances of sexist language. Nice discourse, MeTa.

Where my bitches at?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 7:04 PM on July 3 [5 favorites has favorites]

there's also buttwipe - no one can accuse you of being a sexist if you call them a buttwipe
posted by pyramid termite at 7:04 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

I knew some dip shit would scream OFG UR SEXIST.
I don't give a shit. I can't control how stupid you are.
Think about why I don't give a shit.
And if you don't like it, good! Carve "Mission Accomplished" on a bowling pin and cram it up your ass sideways.

I don't know why this is so funny to me, but this image just popped into my head and I can't stop laughing. I'm going to try to set the scene:

Imagine this thread as a bunch of people in a room having a discussion. Voices get raised from time to time, but overall the sound in the room is the normal hubbub of conversation.

Now picture one of the walls suddenly exploding in a shower of bricks and mortar, as tkchrist comes busting in.
posted by Frobenius Twist at 7:05 PM on July 3 [6 favorites has favorites]

This was a discussion like Stalingrad 1943 was ski vacation.

But I usually bust in through a window. LIKE A NINJA MOTHERFUCKER!
posted by tkchrist at 7:09 PM on July 3

A bunch of dickmeasuring and scattershot derision over instances of sexist language. Nice discourse, MeTa.

Where my bitches at?

I have no idea if you're being serious or "ironic" with this comment. Either way, masterful.
posted by ODiV at 7:12 PM on July 3

MetaFilter: I Can't Control How Stupid You Are, Because I Actually Know Far More About This Subject Than I Think You Can Imagine.
posted by mattdidthat at 7:14 PM on July 3 [4 favorites has favorites]

posted by tkchrist But I usually bust in through a window. LIKE A NINJA MOTHERFUCKER!

I think you're more like Kool-Aid Man.
posted by mattdidthat at 7:17 PM on July 3

posted first by Frobenius Twist
posted by mattdidthat at 7:18 PM on July 3

I'm not losing any sleep over Palin being called a crazy bitch, but there are so many other words that fit her, I am disappointed that some people are sticking with the traditional names. Palin should inspire new words for the level of twisted bullshit she pulls.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:19 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

I used to like watching threads like these, threads where an attempt at a callout turns, rabidly, on the caller-out. Thought it was fun. Even sporting. I enjoyed watching a self-policing community of intelligent people act out at its own logical extremity.

Now I watch these threads with a hot nauseated feeling, praying that yet another Mefite (or Mefites) whose contributions I love and value won't press the big red EXIT button and disappear forever, as have so many before.
posted by penduluum at 7:21 PM on July 3

I'm just surprised that the use of the word cunt hasn't instantly summoned PeterMcDermott, dijin-like.
posted by elfgirl at 7:23 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

Now I watch these threads with a hot nauseated feeling

You're a naughty penduluum.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:24 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Maybe they can do something like bleeping. So every time someone write "Sarah Palin is a bitch" it would show up as "Sarah Palin is a [smurf]*" and "I'm so sick of that stupid bitch" would show up as "I'm so sick of that stupid [smurf]."

Get it? Because then hilarity could ensue and we'd all be friends.

*It doesn't have to be "smurf"; it could be "softcore tater."
posted by anniecat at 7:27 PM on July 3

I think we can all agree that,

we can't really agree on anything.
posted by philip-random at 7:28 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Now I watch these threads with a hot nauseated feeling, praying that yet another Mefite (or Mefites) whose contributions I love and value won't press the big red EXIT button and disappear forever, as have so many before.

Over Sarah Palin? Man, fuck it, seeya. That's like someone walking out of a marriage because their spouse forgot to set the coffee maker the night before. Either they're sensitive beyond belief or they're looking for an excuse, and either way...
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:29 PM on July 3

Where my bitches at?

Sounds like we need a new "links to" contact type.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 7:30 PM on July 3 [5 favorites has favorites]

I can't tell if Mattdidthat is zinging me or is stuck in some sort of Rain Man loop.

Wopner is on at 3, Matt. And. You're a very good driver.
posted by tkchrist at 7:30 PM on July 3

Yeah. I'm with kittens. Push the button, you pussies.
posted by tkchrist at 7:31 PM on July 3

I've been using "Kool Aid" as a verb lately–as in, "Look at these cheap-ass walls. I could just Kool-Aid right through this mu'fucker."
posted by Mister_A at 7:31 PM on July 3 [28 favorites has favorites]

Why are comments like this and this not deemed totally unacceptable?

Because truth is an absolute defense against charges of libel.
posted by scody at 7:34 PM on July 3 [8 favorites has favorites]

Metafilter: We can't really agree on anything.
posted by the littlest brussels sprout at 7:36 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

I can't tell if Mattdidthat is zinging me or is stuck in some sort of Rain Man loop.

Nah. He just posts random comments to see which garner the most favourites so he can come up with new tshirts to sell.
posted by gman at 7:39 PM on July 3 [5 favorites has favorites]

Nah. He just posts random comments to see which garner the most favourites so he can come up with new tshirts to sell.

Now that was a ZING!
posted by tkchrist at 7:42 PM on July 3

Because it's okay to make absolutely vile and frequently misogynistic comments about, say, Palin, Coulter, and Malkin

Coulter and Malin are absolutely vile, frequently racist, and just plain fucking evil. There are no comments about those two that can be worse than anything they themselves have no said about others. Fuck them both with jagged glass and it would be less harmful than what they've done to America's culture.

Palin is just a corrupt, incompetent dipshit by comparison.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:43 PM on July 3

There was some middle school kid out on the street a couple days ago, and he kept calling him the Kool AIDS Man (well, I doubt he mentally capitalized it like I did).

It's given rise to probably the most reprehensible mental images I've had since daydreaming about a magazine called Tard Fancy.
posted by klangklangston at 7:47 PM on July 3 [15 favorites has favorites]

No fff. You don't get it.

Krrlson is using our own evil leftist powers against us — like calling us misogynists is a form of Kryptonite.

"I'm... so disoriented by this accusation of misogyny... can't see straight... why I've forgotten which political wing mobilized all it's efforts and monies... to reverse equal rights and discrimination protection for women. I'm so confused... so... tired... I better vote for Sarah Palin to stop this terrible throbbing pain!"
posted by tkchrist at 7:49 PM on July 3 [5 favorites has favorites]

It's the 4th of July weekend and I'll be god damned if I let anything spoil it. I'm going outside right now to set off crazy big fireworks. That's right I've got fireworks. Down here in the south we can still blow shit up like real Americans. Happy 4th bitches!
posted by nola at 7:52 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

While I hate to see the word bitch used where more accurate words like vapid, unthinking, ignorant, uneducated, fearful, self-serving, cowardly, inarticulate, etc... would do, I do have to point out that Palin herself framed the dialogue:

"The only difference between a hockey mom and a pitbull is the lipstick"
posted by BrotherCaine at 7:54 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

So has Autarky given anyone a best answer in this thread yet?
posted by cjorgensen at 7:54 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Palin should inspire new words for the level of twisted bullshit she pulls.

How about Scalia's "gollywaddle"?
posted by darkstar at 7:59 PM on July 3

Blazecock Burgers
---
1 lb burger meat
1 shallot, coarsely diced
1 Tbsp wildflower honey
1 chipotle pepper, with 1 Tbsp adobo sauce

1. Bring together in mixing bowl until evenly distributed, but no more.
2. Form four equally sized patties
3. Place thumb indent in the middle of each patty
4. Place in fridge for 30 min

In the meantime, ready a hot grill. After 30 min, grill for 3 min on each side to get lines. Turn heat down to medium until meat is cooked evenly and is raised to 155 deg F. Add a thin slice of gruyere cheese, if desired, and let sit for five minutes before serving on toasted sesame seed buns with a thick slice of heirloom tomato and desired condiments.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:59 PM on July 3 [12 favorites has favorites]

Turn heat down to medium until meat is cooked evenly and is raised to 155 deg F.

Cooking with gas I see. Liberal.
posted by nola at 8:01 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

Fuck them both with jagged glass and it would be less harmful than what they've done to America's culture.

Really man, you had to include that image? Nothing better comes to mind, no other metaphor except violent rape?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:02 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

That sounds pretty nomworthy, BP. I'll take three and a beer!
posted by darkstar at 8:02 PM on July 3

*BB
posted by darkstar at 8:03 PM on July 3

Eviscerate them with jagged glass, then. Whatever would make you happier, BB.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:06 PM on July 3

Oh, hooray.
posted by contessa at 8:08 PM on July 3

Or tickle them to death with feathers and bunny ears. So long as they're removed from the public sphere it's all good. Jeesh.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:11 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

Palin should inspire new words for the level of twisted bullshit she pulls.

How about Scalia's "gollywaddle"?
.
The thought of a Palin-Scalia joint effort on anything sends chills down my spine. Oh my god, I think I'm going to vomit.
posted by the littlest brussels sprout at 8:14 PM on July 3

praying that yet another Mefite (or Mefites) whose contributions I love and value

I must be doing Metafilter wrong. There's not a single Mefite whose contributions I "love and value." I just don't pay that much attention to who writes this or that comment.
posted by jayder at 8:17 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

jayder you're out of the fan club.
posted by tkchrist at 8:18 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

jayder I . . . HOLY SHIT MY HOUSE IS ON FIRE!
posted by nola at 8:20 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

There's not a single Mefite whose contributions I "love and value." I just don't pay that much attention to who writes this or that comment.

You maverick.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:22 PM on July 3

Add a thin slice of gruyere cheese

Frakkin eurotrash. What the hell is wrong with Cheddar?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:22 PM on July 3

Cheddar? What are you, a Tory?

What's wrong with "American" cheese?
posted by darkstar at 8:26 PM on July 3

It's been 8 years since I could light a Roman Candle and be proud to be an American. Obama, there I said it. I'm full of patriotic vigour. I'm going to ride this feeling of team spirit till it dumps me on my ass like everything else. I've got a really nice firework called the "Pink Diamond" which promises to make my left nut whole again, so you can see this is a very special 4th for some of us.
posted by nola at 8:31 PM on July 3 [5 favorites has favorites]

Or tickle them to death with feathers and bunny ears

You're no longer wishing violent rape, just pleasant death, ya progress!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:42 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Cheddar? What are you, a Tory?

That's a double joke. See ... I accuse him of ... being eurotrash ... and then I suggest ... something ... from Europe ... which most ... Americans ... wouldn't ... know ... oh fuck it.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:43 PM on July 3 [7 favorites has favorites]

You should be aware, BB, that the word "Fuck" has about a jazillion uses, most of them not involving any sort of sex. When someone says "Fuck 'em," they hardly ever mean "have coital relations with 'em."

Or at least I sure as hell wouldn't want to come within a long mile of coitus of any kind with either of them. Death would be a preferable alternative.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:53 PM on July 3

3. Place thumb indent in the middle of each patty

I thought this was a joke. You know, some elaborate recipe that led into something like "then secretly mess with everyone's food." Then I asked a friend who eats meat and he said that it's a technique. Then I realized you said thumb. Your recipe is nowhere near as funny as I first thought it was.
posted by allen.spaulding at 8:54 PM on July 3

I just noticed that the only tag in the call out it "politics."

Which is funny. Not sexism. Not civility. Not gender. Or the hundred other tags one would put on something like this if your intent was an honest to goodness discussion about etiquette. Not even Sarah frigg'n Palin. Nope. Politics.

What that means I have no idea. But one uncharitable reading could mean that the poster is revealing an unintended bias to be offended due to partisan leanings. Just a theory.
posted by tkchrist at 9:01 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

You're a good dancer FFF. I'll go sit down and let you work your magic.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:03 PM on July 3

I hate myself for favouriting the "Tard Fancy" comment, but I did it anyway.
posted by bayliss at 9:05 PM on July 3

Whatevs, Brandon, whatevs. Enjoy your horsey ride.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:07 PM on July 3

The thought of a Palin-Scalia joint effort on anything sends chills down my spine

Where does the thought of Scalia/Palin slashfic chill you?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:13 PM on July 3

You should be aware, BB, that the word "Fuck" has about a jazillion uses, most of them not involving any sort of sex. When someone says "Fuck 'em," they hardly ever mean "have coital relations with 'em."

I agree that "fuck 'em" doesn't always mean sex, but when you add, "with jagged glass," it's a specific, graphic image. I actually thought you meant every word of that when I first read it, and was disturbed, but I'm glad to know you just meant it as an intensifier.
posted by palliser at 9:13 PM on July 3

I hate myself for favouriting the "Tard Fancy"

When he's on a roll, he's on a roll.
posted by tkchrist at 9:17 PM on July 3

Enjoy your horsey ride.

Your horsist prig, how dare you! Some of my best friends are horses!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:18 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

And some of my best friends are bitches!

/NOT CANINIST
posted by darkstar at 9:20 PM on July 3

Some of my best friends are horses!

I'd fuck 'em.
posted by tkchrist at 9:23 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Having eaten my first burger, I can now proudly and truthfully say that I would gladly put a Blazecock in my mouth.

What?
posted by The Whelk at 9:23 PM on July 3 [6 favorites has favorites]

I would gladly put a Blazecock in my mouth.

And with that I'm outta here. Friday night wife's outta town and I'm obsessing about Sarah frigg'n Palin. Good god. I am pathetic.
posted by tkchrist at 9:27 PM on July 3

The site that shares together, goes to therapy together.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:27 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

My work here is done.
posted by The Whelk at 9:29 PM on July 3

You didn't turn sweep the floor!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:57 PM on July 3

Think about why it's a pejorative

Now think about why it's seen as sexist

Now think about a plate of beans

Wonder why you haven't before ♪
posted by hattifattener at 10:04 PM on July 3 [6 favorites has favorites]

My God, this really IS better than anything on tv right now.
posted by darkstar at 10:09 PM on July 3

Look, Sarah Palin is an idiot. Does that offend you Autarky?
posted by ob at 10:11 PM on July 3

anything is better than what's on TV right now
posted by philip-random at 10:14 PM on July 3

anything is better than what's on TV right now

I dunno, the lack of posturing in this E-Z Wrap commercial is quite refreshing.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:26 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

not to derail an otherwise constuctive thread further, but where i'm from cunt is most commonly used as an insult towards men. i think it's a commonwealth/american english thing. i didn't entirely get that 30 rock episode until i found this out.
posted by onya at 10:27 PM on July 3

You all are a bunch of drama queens.
posted by vapidave at 10:32 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

not to derail an otherwise constuctive thread

Here are just a few of the many names of my cat!

Kitty
Baby Kitty
Ohhhhhhhh it's a kitty
Mina
Goddammit Mina
Mina Goddammit Get the Fuck Down from There What the Fuck
NO Mina
Werner Catzog
Skipper the Eyechild
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:33 PM on July 3 [16 favorites has favorites]

This is a most excellent derail.

Sven
Spotty
Mr. Cat
Catface
Cat Bastard
Asshole
Big Jerk
Luckdragon
Bunnyfeets
Spottyfur
MEEAAAAHHHH MEEAHHhhh

Nikola
Stripey
Mr. Kitty
Kittenface
Cuddlemuffin
Stupid
Fat and stupid
Cuteness
Snugglewumpus
Furburger
PigeonSquirrel
Grunty
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:40 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

Well as long as we're posting random shit, I just discovered you can now buy actual Pedobear dolls. Pretty fucked up / awesome.
posted by ryanrs at 10:41 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

You forgot Herman Purring
posted by ob at 10:42 PM on July 3

This is a most excellent derail.

Sven
Spotty
Mr. Cat
Catface
Cat Bastard
Asshole
Big Jerk
Luckdragon
Bunnyfeets
kicky
Spottyfur
MEEAAAAHHHH MEEAHHhhh

Nikola
Stripey
Mr. Kitty
Kittenface
Cuddlemuffin
Stupid
Fat and stupid
licky
Cuteness
Snugglewumpus
Furburger
PigeonSquirrel
Grunty
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:46 PM on July 3

Where my bitches at?

I've been cleaning the house all day and this is how you address me?

May I have another?

DON'T GIVE ME THAT SHIT ABOUT BEING TOO TIRED YOU PROMISED ME SPANKINGS LATER.
posted by loquacious at 10:49 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Sorry for the double, shitty service on a godforsaken stretch of highway, gonna be doing illegal crap in the middle of nowhere this fourth.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:50 PM on July 3

Well as long as we're posting random shit, I just discovered you can now buy actual Pedobear dolls. Pretty fucked up / awesome.

Holy shit.

WHAT
THE
FUCK
4CHAN?
posted by loquacious at 10:52 PM on July 3

Sorry for the double, shitty service on a godforsaken stretch of highway, gonna be doing illegal crap in the middle of nowhere this fourth.

HI I AM NO LONGER A MINOR.
posted by loquacious at 10:53 PM on July 3

loquacious, something more... incendiary... seems appropriate for the holiday. Ever been sounded with a sparkler? Don't. Move.

Shit I'm creative.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:56 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

And kind of shuddering.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:58 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

I just want to express heartfelt gratitude and effusive thanks to Autarky for posting this, cause it's the most entertaining MeTa thread to come down the pike in many a moon. A veritable cornucopia of damn funny comments! You crazy bitches! I love you all!

except Krrrlson. Krrrlson's a total drag.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 10:59 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

I don't think this is wise to do in a moving vehicle. I wonder what pissing out a sparkler smells like? Besides "ow, fuck."

And kind of shuddering.

HARLOT!
posted by loquacious at 11:00 PM on July 3

I'm bored and doing laundry on a holiday weekend, can you tell?

But someone brought me a bottle of Tito's Vodka before she went out on a road trip so I think I'll be ok.
posted by loquacious at 11:05 PM on July 3

I call my male friends both bitches and cunts, and cocks and pricks, and gays and I even call them lesbians. I call them shits, I call them snots, I....

I call my female friends cunts, and cocks and pricks, and gays and I even call them lesbians. I call them shits, I call them snots, I call them quick and I....

It's a wonder that you have any friends.
posted by Lynsey at 11:05 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

I'd link to the video of the kid with a lit rocket up his ass that he can't fire out 'coz he panics, but I can't be bothered. Hilarity ensues. You get the idea.
posted by ob at 11:08 PM on July 3

HI I AM NO LONGER A MINOR

Aw, going where you don't want to be, though, to the place of that friend of mine who thought you were a tweaker. GOSH HOW COULD HE THINK THAT?

*domme noogies*
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:14 PM on July 3

bitch stole my fish

just in case there's anyone out there who still hasn't seen it...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 11:17 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

Aw, going where you don't want to be, though, to the place of that friend of mine who thought you were a tweaker. GOSH HOW COULD HE THINK THAT?

I didn't think he thought I was one, just that I happened to live somewhere that was previously notorious for them long before I arrived.

Anyway, I don't put a lot of weight on the opinions of someone who visits someone's home/workspace and then has the poor taste to drop a lot of not very clever insults and think he's sly. Tell him I was just successfully ignoring the failtroll, and thanks for quitting booze so I could drink his gin. I didn't see any point to gin until I met that bottle of Hendrick's.
posted by loquacious at 11:28 PM on July 3

Just chiming in to say that I have no problem with using the term "bitch" when it's applicable, but since some people seem to be in a tither regarding it's gender-ness, maybe we could combine it with bastard and make it gender-neutral: bastitch, bastarditch, bitchtard, bitard?
posted by amyms at 11:36 PM on July 3

Can we just co-opt Palin's name to mean the same thing?
posted by loquacious at 11:38 PM on July 3

bitchtard

While I have to give this epithet high marks, indeed (and plan to appropriate it for use in future conversations), I'm not sure it's going to address the underlying concern expressed here.
posted by darkstar at 11:44 PM on July 3 [1 favorite has favorites]

Happy July 4th to you transatlantics.
posted by jouke at 11:45 PM on July 3

I had to leave immediately after posting this, so it wasn't some hit-and-run post as some have suggested.

I am in no way defending Palin's honor or anything of the sort. I'm no fan of hers, I think she's a terrible candidate not nearly capable of being president, vice president, or anything like that, and I'm disgusted that she quit mid term.

But, amazingly I can voice that without getting really, really nasty. I'm no master orator or writer, and though my feelings on Pelosi/Clinton/etc. are probably in some ways similar to those people here have on Palin, I somehow manage to avoid the really disgusting bile that so often gets spewed. I'm all for insults and schadenfreude, but there's no need for the kind of stuff that gets posted here on a regular basis in the political threads.

I've spoken my piece. If the users here don't have any problem with a site where comments like the ones I linked to are common then so be it. I'm just disappointed. I was originally attracted to MF because it's intelligent, and intelligent people don't need to write like youtube comments. That's why I don't read sites like Free Republic even if I'm closer to them ideologically--it's just far too much nastiness and hatred overwhelming some small amount of intelligent discussion.
posted by Autarky at 11:46 PM on July 3 [3 favorites has favorites]

I'm just disappointed. I was originally attracted to MF because it's intelligent, and intelligent people don't need to write like youtube comments.

Maybe people are trying, as a kindness, to speak in a simple tone and language that will be understood by her and her supporters?

No? Ah, well.
posted by loquacious at 11:52 PM on July 3

NEVERMIND HERE'S A LITTLE SHOW INVOLVING LIT FIREWORKS UP MY BUTT.
posted by loquacious at 11:52 PM on July 3 [2 favorites has favorites]

I'm just disappointed. I was originally attracted to MF because it's intelligent...

You know, intelligent people can also use epithets, cussing/cursing and vulgarity. Being intelligent doesn't preclude being able to tell it like it is.
posted by amyms at 11:58 PM on July 3 [6 favorites has favorites]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

*rolls eyes*
posted by Space Kitty at 11:59 PM on July 3

I had to leave immediately after posting this, so it wasn't some hit-and-run post as some have suggested.

What do you think hit-and-run means?
posted by longsleeves at 12:06 AM on July 4 [4 favorites has favorites]

hit and run means, to me, that you post something explosive and then dash off and put a pillow over your head and never come back.

I posted this, realized I had some things I had to do, and headed out for a few hours. When I came back I posted a comment clarifying the point I had wanted to make (which, admittedly, wasn't very well done in the original).
posted by Autarky at 12:14 AM on July 4

Having eaten my first burger, I can now proudly and truthfully say that I would gladly put a Blazecock in my mouth.

You'll come
back for more
~~Burma Shave~~ Blazecock Burger
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:23 AM on July 4

You still fail at understanding how language works. Don't worry, we linguists are used to it.
posted by Maximian at 12:23 AM on July 4

That's it, Autarky? Tell me honestly, man:

1) Did you read the entire thread? You picked out comments near the beginning and end.

2) For reals, did you just control-F for "bitch" and take those two comments, or were you really looking for the worst of the worst? Because man, you could have picked a lot better comments.

3) If you did control-F for "bitch", did you pick that word as a sort of troll/wedge thing?
posted by fleacircus at 12:24 AM on July 4

Because there's so much sand in your vagina?
posted by bardic at 12:34 AM on July 4

politics
posted by flapjax at midnite at 12:36 AM on July 4 [2 favorites has favorites]

Okay, I'm officially impressed with Google. I just did a Google search of "kermit flail" and it turned up THIS VERY THREAD on the second page of search results. That's a degree of efficiency that's a little unsettling.

We are being watched!
posted by darkstar at 12:37 AM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

Being proud/not proud of one's country depending on the president/his or her actions is being a megalomanical fuck-wad bitch.

Let's see, "I was proud from 1/20/09 through 2/1/09 and then I wasn't proud because the president killed some kids in Afghanistan thanks to an errant missile strike and I was marginally proud because the bank-help plan fellated the banksters and then I was within an eyelash of not being proud after the ugly defense of DOMA."

That aside, I'd sooner drink boiling paint than vote for Palin or anyone with a million miles of her political orientation.

We're only lowering ourselves when we wade into who-can-spew-the-snarkiest-nastiest-vitriol.

Metafilteredstate.com
posted by ambient2 at 12:38 AM on July 4

I was originally attracted to MF because it's intelligent, and intelligent people don't need to write like youtube comments

What I like about MetaFilter is that it's like a big ol' house party. In the living room they're sipping wine and talking art and science and philosophy, while in the kitchen they're earnestly hashing out meaningful personal stuff. And down in the basement the drunks are sitting around giggling and trying to light their farts.

I'll be downstairs. I just came up for more dip.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:40 AM on July 4 [45 favorites has favorites]

I'm no master orator or writer, and though my feelings on Pelosi/Clinton/etc. are probably in some ways similar to those people here have on Palin, I somehow manage to avoid the really disgusting bile that so often gets spewed.

Actually I would be totally okay with you doing this, if you also were to provide examples of what exactly Clinton (I assume you mean Hillary?) and Pelosi have actually done that make you just so gosh darn frustrated with them!

Seriously, why the bile? You say you agree that Palin is kinda a bad, bad person and chide us for being rude about it because if you wanted, you could be rude about Pelosi and Hitlery. But what's missing is that we may not agree with your reasons. In fact, your reasons may be stupid, sucky, and shitty. You don't get equal treatment merely by virtue of being on the other side. You actually have to put in the work.

So lay it on us. WHY are Hillary and Pelosi awful bitches?
posted by fleacircus at 12:42 AM on July 4

And the less said about what happens in the cellar, the better.
posted by Rhomboid at 12:45 AM on July 4

"American" cheese

I just wanted to point out that the quotes are around the wrong word there.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:47 AM on July 4 [18 favorites has favorites]

Autarky, you may have a superior intellect and strong moral fibre, but you are no match against us when we are teamed up. THE END.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:48 AM on July 4 [2 favorites has favorites]

Oh. My. God. BP, I've never seen that one, before.

How is it that I've never seen that one before?
posted by darkstar at 12:56 AM on July 4

Wow, crippled masters... I remember driving around searching for an independent video store in the mid 90s that carried that. I can't remember if I ever found one. Kids these days with their easy youtubes.
posted by Rhomboid at 12:57 AM on July 4

*strokes beard, laughs*

HA HA HA
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:57 AM on July 4

I have no problem with the word "bitch," per se. However, in Palin's case, I find that the term plays into her claims of gender bias (which is a real problem, and should be explored whether or not the claim is found to have merit.) It also lacks specificity. I may have been caled a bitch a time or two or ninety, and I'm no Sarah Palin.

So I prefer to call her a "bottomless cesspool of ignorance, arrogance, incompetence and corruption."
posted by louche mustachio at 1:14 AM on July 4 [2 favorites has favorites]

Is "bat shit crazy, rabid, ignorant whackdoodle" still acceptable?
posted by crataegus at 1:54 AM on July 4

Lots of cunty bitches up in this thread.
posted by Mikey-San at 1:59 AM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

Sorry, I thought this was the cunty bitches thread. Didn't mean to offend.
posted by Mikey-San at 2:01 AM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

I posted this, realized I had some things I had to do, and headed out for a few hours.

For future reference, it'd be a really good idea when finding yourself in that position to drop a quick explanatory comment into the potentially-very-contentious holiday-weekend metatalk thread you've just started saying, approximately, "shit, real life has gotten in my way and I have to head out for a few hours, that wasn't my intention, sorry about this", so that people at least know that you're disappearing for a reason rather than just, you know, disappearing.

Sorry, I thought this was the cunty bitches thread. Didn't mean to offend.

It is almost never, ever, a cunty bitches thread, as much as certain mefites who enjoy saying "cunt" and/or "bitches" just to be sassy/dickish seem to like pretending they think it is or to think that their personal feelings or national/local acculturation vis-a-vis "bitch" or "cunt" is actually transitive to the the general mefi readership.
posted by cortex at 2:17 AM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

Why are comments like this and this not deemed totally unacceptable?

The same reason Hillary Clinton is called a on places like Little Green Footballs.

Humans are very clannish and love to demonize "the other." Makes things more exciting, I guess.
posted by thisperon at 2:32 AM on July 4

The same reason Hillary Clinton is called a ... on places like Little Green Footballs.

Haha, I guess I punctuated the above in such a way that it culled the word I wanted to use. But you can probably guess.
posted by thisperon at 2:33 AM on July 4

Lots of cunty bitches up in this thread.

hey, cut that terminology out.

it's heavily offensive down under; it reminds us too much of our former prime minister.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:45 AM on July 4

Sorry, should have linked...this is the Canute I'm talking about.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:49 AM on July 4

MetaTalk: "bitch" or "cunt" is actually transitive to the the general mefi readership.
posted by loquacious at 3:00 AM on July 4

i think they're more intransitive than transitive.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:06 AM on July 4

Intransigent, transient, indigent, and indigenous, too.
posted by cgc373 at 5:18 AM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

Or maybe recalcitrant.
posted by flabdablet at 5:19 AM on July 4

Sorry, wrong PM.
posted by flabdablet at 5:27 AM on July 4

For those interested in the stated topic of this discussion, I should point out that Gravitus apparently made a comment in the Palin thread which was deemed unacceptable and deleted. Perhaps it would be useful to talk about the differences between his comment and the ones made by tkchrist and contessa, which were (as Autarky points out) allowed to stand.
posted by Clay201 at 6:06 AM on July 4

Hush up and pass me some BBQ and legally sanctioned explosives.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:38 AM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

On a more edifying note, there's a few gems in the thread. FourCheeseMac had some really thoughtful and illuminating analysis, specifically his comments on the Alaskan Native community and their relationship to state and national politics. I'd link to them specifically but am not sure how.

Just sayin'.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 6:41 AM on July 4

Why are comments like this and this not deemed totally unacceptable?

They're not really.

It was a late-Friday fast moving thread on a holiday weekend. I've had it with the bitch/cunt lazy insults and tkchrist's performance art ranting personally. But, I wasn't around and cortex is painting his new house and was out late at karaoke last night and I'm going to go walk on the beach and then go read the Palin thread.

I don't really care how much you don't like anyone, the bizarre glee with which (some) people try to top each other with anti-Palin hate and invective is pretty nauseating to me. Is it worse than what she's done to America? I don't know, but we've definitely got a difference of opinion as far as whether you match hate with hate or not. My vote is not.
posted by jessamyn at 6:47 AM on July 4 [20 favorites has favorites]

<serious cat feminist lit>

Germaine Greer, a great advocate of the idea of "taking back words", wrote a fantastic essay called "Lady, Love Your Cunt". (Google Books preview)

</serious cat feminist lit>

Just to balance out all that seriousness,

Elmore cracked cunt
And I don't care
onya cracked cunt
I still don't care
UbuRovias cracked cunt
And he is great!
Take that you stupid cunt!
posted by elfgirl at 6:47 AM on July 4 [2 favorites has favorites]

On preview: Sorry, Jess. Delete my silly comment (or the silly bit of it) if you want.
posted by elfgirl at 6:48 AM on July 4

If I can't be mean and tasteless, then I want out of this whole internets thing.
posted by Jon-o at 6:53 AM on July 4

I'd link to them specifically but am not sure how

Right-click on the comment timestamps and choose "Copy Link Location".
posted by flabdablet at 6:58 AM on July 4

Like this.
posted by flabdablet at 7:00 AM on July 4

Is it worse than what she's done to America? I don't know...

You have to be kidding. Really? You really don't know if a group of snarky left-leaning internet users joking (tastelessly, I'll admit) in a semi-obscure web forum is worse for our country than what Palin has done to America, let alone her own state? The users of Mefi maybe went overboard with words, but Palin went overboard with actions & would've only continued to do so again & again.

...but we've definitely got a difference of opinion as far as whether you match hate with hate or not. My vote is not.

I agree with this 100%.
posted by Item at 7:11 AM on July 4 [4 favorites has favorites]

I've spoken my piece. If the users here don't have any problem with a site where comments like the ones I linked to are common then so be it.

I really do not get your mindset, Autarky. Do you also fly into a snit when, in personal conversation, someone makes a comment that you do not think is appropriately tasteful? I think of Metafilter as comparable, in the level of dialogue that is appropriate here, to intelligent and spirited conversation in a bar. You will hear some people speak who never curse, and you will hear some people speak who curse a lot, you will hear people who say provocative things just to get a reaction, and other people who are unfailingly serious. Hearing people say things that you might not say, seems to be just the price of participating in a public conversation.

I'm just disappointed.

Your disappointment is noted, but I think it is the result of your expectations being unrealistic, not that anyone here "let you down."

I was originally attracted to MF because it's intelligent, and intelligent people don't need to write like youtube comments.

The comments you quoted had no resemblance to youtube comments. This comment was clearly parodying a style of "street" discourse, and tkchrist's comment was more substantive than any Youtube comment I have read.
posted by jayder at 7:48 AM on July 4

what Palin has done to America

Which is what, exactly?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:01 AM on July 4

what Palin has done to America

Which is what, exactly?

Enabling the ignorant.
posted by Zambrano at 8:13 AM on July 4 [7 favorites has favorites]

Pandering to a vocal minority? That horrible, horrible woman!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:14 AM on July 4

Enabling the ignorant.

Bingo.

And I guess I apologize for not being clear, but Alaska is part of America, right? She hasn't exactly treated the state with respect.
posted by Item at 8:20 AM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

If someone is as hateable as Palin, you don't blame the hater, you blame the hatee.

oh, please - i don't hate sarah palin - i just don't like to see her running anything more complicated than the wasila baptist church strawberry shortcake social
posted by pyramid termite at 8:37 AM on July 4

But, amazingly I can voice that without getting really, really nasty.

*looks up posting history*

Actually, no. While you can certainly voice that without using profanity, your short posting history is full of nasty finger-pointing chides and insults.

In all seriousness, stuff like the following is pushing 10% of your entire comment base here:

Wow, what an original thesis! And, of course, it goes without saying that you are one of the elite, the strong, the mighty, who, with an unbending will, face the cruelties and savageries of the short and miserable life on this cruel dark planet.

...

I really don't understand MF's obsession with homosexuality and gay marriage. Is it really necessary to have 15 echo chamber threads a week where everyone gets together and says "gay marriage is awesome; Christians are homophobes" ?

...

This discussion isn't rational, this is the masturbatory liberal echo chamber of self-congratulation and adulation. How metafilter is so skewed liberal I don't know, but this is nothing more than a gathering of liberals exulting in how clever and enlightened they are and lumping the conservatives as a hateful, ignorant, mentally ill bunch that is a cancerous leech on the country.

...

It seems even with one's tongue planted firmly in cheek people can't take a joke that offends their PC sensibilities.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:40 AM on July 4 [9 favorites has favorites]

Germaine Greer, a great advocate of the idea of "taking back words", wrote a fantastic essay called "Lady, Love Your Cunt"

But Germaine's an Australian who lives in the UK. She doesn't count.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:45 AM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

Alaska is part of America, right?

Hedge much? A very small percentage of people here were aware of her prior to August 28, 2008, and even fewer gave a damn about the policies put forward by her administration. Most of the talk in the Palin VP FPP was about Troopergate, her inexperience, and identity politics, with very little actual, informed criticism regarding her gubernatorial career.
Enabling the ignorant, indeed.

So yes Virginia, Alaska is indeed a part of the United States, but you'll have to excuse me if I don't take people seriously when they try to use their new found concern for Alaska as the peg upon which to hang their dislike of the woman or weaselly justify their hyperbole. Technically, Alaska's in the Milky Way, so really, we could say that Palin has hurt the entire freaking galaxy! Does her malice and menace know no bounds?!?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:53 AM on July 4 [5 favorites has favorites]

This discussion isn't rational, this is the masturbatory liberal echo chamber of self-congratulation and adulation. How metafilter is so skewed liberal I don't know, but this is nothing more than a gathering of liberals exulting in how clever and enlightened they are and lumping the conservatives as a hateful, ignorant, mentally ill bunch that is a cancerous leech on the country.

Autarky, you have stated that you believe MeFi to be inhabited by intelligent people.

You will note, then, that intelligent people tend to be socially liberal.

There is a reason for this.

I shall leave it to you to connect the dots.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:03 AM on July 4 [7 favorites has favorites]

I've spoken my piece. If the users here don't have any problem with a site where comments like the ones I linked to are common then so be it.

I'll just take that as a whopping big "affirmative" and move on.
posted by Autarky at 9:06 AM on July 4

a gathering of liberals exulting in how clever and enlightened they are

As opposed to Palinoids exulting in their own bullheaded batshit pigfuck? Why, yes. Thank you kindly.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:13 AM on July 4

I'll just take that as a whopping big "affirmative" and move on.

OK then, thanks for playing!
posted by ob at 9:19 AM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

Autarky, the simple answer to what bothers people so much about Palin is goddamned near everything, and -- as your own opinions of her illustrate -- disdain, disgust, and straight-up fear vis a vis Palin is hardly limited to those on the left: I think it's arguable but hardly a stretch to guess that Palin hurt McCain's campaign, and may have kept a great many people who may otherwise have voted for him away from the polls. I think too that at this moment in American life -- a moment that stretches, and in which we seem perpetually doomed to suffer the mistakes of the previous presidential administration -- a folksy simpleton whose evident stupidity is outstripped only by her ambition and her aggression is just a little too familiar, too close to what came close to ruining our country forever, is someone unlikely to met with cheers by anyone who has even the dimmest glimmering of just what an outhouse of the human soul we have lately suffered through, and how long it will be before our nation is able to wash the stench of it away. Perhaps you think our pointless war of choice, our shattered economy, our ruined environment and our soiled international standing are either no biggies or things that have no real cause and therefore no one to blame, but most of America does not feel that way, and Palin is representative to this majority of the kind of politician who got us into this whole ugly fucking mess. So no: Probably no one will have a problem with it. If you're really that offended by sexism, might I suggest you pursue the defense of someone who is in favor of women's reproductive rights, for a start? Or at least not actively opposed to women's reproductive rights? It may seem a little less like total disingenuous bullshit, frankly.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:27 AM on July 4 [13 favorites has favorites]

I feel through all this hand-wringing we've missed the meat of what is truly the most important issue confronting us in the new Palin thread:

The Whelk, you've never had a HAMBURGER??!!%?!%?!

And then you so lightly just trot back in with "Also I had a hamburger for the first time ever"... that doesn't cut it mister!

DETAILS! What was on your hamburger? How was it cooked? What sort of meat? Pickles?

Nope. Not Ever not once in my life til last night have I ever had a hamburger. I don't like beef particularly and I was raised to be very very wary of any ground meat.

Until now.

It was a ground sirloin, skillet-fried, bound with one egg, salt and pepper, smothered in caramelized onions and white mushrooms, seared, and served with fancy-pants ketchup on a poppy-seed kasier roll. Washed down with red wine from a box and eaten while watching a silly show about vampires.

Does that cover it?
posted by The Whelk at 9:28 AM on July 4

Gun for a bison burger next, Whelk. Awesomelicious. Beef can't hold a candle to it.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:51 AM on July 4

Nthing bison. Last time we made burgers we mixed some Jer's Original Recipe rub in with the meat and let it marinate for a bit before cooking. YUM.
posted by elfgirl at 10:05 AM on July 4

Has "echo chamber" replaced "Kool Aid" on the list of trite conservative dismissals?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:05 AM on July 4

Two words: alligator burger. Bison is pretty amazing, though.
posted by Item at 10:07 AM on July 4

Eh. It's basically beef-but-different, and too lean for my taste, so for what's wonderful about a burger, bison/buffalo meat loses out.

It's worth trying for posterity's sake but I don't know if it's really a superior burger.

Which actually brings me around nicely to my actual reason for commenting:

Why is "stupid cow" a sexist comment?
posted by pineapple at 10:07 AM on July 4

Nthing Bison. Buffalo. Herd, what have you.

Also, you say pan fried and seared. Please so heaven help me tell me you left the center red. Though to be safe I would then ask, was the meat ground pre purchase, or did you ask the butcher to grind some then and there?

Also: cheese. Anyone who says mayonnaise is your sworn enemy and you must do battle.
posted by cavalier at 10:09 AM on July 4

I'll just take that as a whopping big "affirmative" and move on.

You just don't hear a word said to you, do you.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:29 AM on July 4

Dag, another monster Palin MeTa. Does this happen every time the blue gets hit w/ an FPPalin? It seems like every blue Palin thread has a companion piece here in the grey.

Autarky - So, you could get all bilious about Pelosi and Clinton but won't? How nice of you. Care to explain how these women - you know, these women who are actually qualified for the positions they hold - compare to Sarah Palin in any way beyond gender?

As a rule, it tends to be a very bad idea to try and "elevate the discourse" on Metafilter, or any web board in general. If you're not a mod, your sensibilities regarding proper discourse really aren't relevant. Coming into the grey and squawking as if they are only comes off as whiny.

But, as stated above, all Palin posts apparently need a companion piece in the grey. So, thanks for starting this one, I suppose - somebody had to.
posted by EatTheWeak at 10:37 AM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

Has "echo chamber" replaced "Kool Aid" on the list of trite conservative dismissals?

"Kool Aid Echo Chamber" would be a great name for an electronica project.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:40 AM on July 4

OH YEAH! ...YEAH...YEAH...YEAH
posted by darkstar at 10:42 AM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

Heaven on earth is an onion slice.

and NOT bermuda onion.
posted by longsleeves at 11:02 AM on July 4

Good point. Completely forgot about onions...
posted by cavalier at 11:20 AM on July 4

Autarky: "I really don't understand MF's obsession with homosexuality and gay marriage. Is it really necessary to have 15 echo chamber threads a week where everyone gets together and says 'gay marriage is awesome; Christians are homophobes?'"

I'm genuinely curious. Can you please point out a week where there have been multiple FPPs about gay marriage? Which week was it with 15 separate FPP's?
posted by ericb at 11:22 AM on July 4

Which week was it with 15 separate FPP's?

At this juncture, we can conclude that Autarky is like our own micro-Palin, just another one of a handful of whiny conservatives who periodically troll Metafilter. If we choose not to respond to their shrill hyperbole, they might go away.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:27 AM on July 4

Turkey makes a better burger than bison, I think.
posted by box at 11:58 AM on July 4

I don't really care how much you don't like anyone, the bizarre glee with which (some) people try to top each other with anti-Palin hate and invective is pretty nauseating to me.

I could not agree more. The bitch and cunt gendered insults are tiresome, even, no, especially from people who believe they've got the right to use them because of their morally superior political positions.

Hey, that works for the right and the left.

It's embarrassing, really, to see people here convinced that they are intelligent and progressive and therefore justified in calling a woman a bitch.
posted by vincele at 12:00 PM on July 4 [13 favorites has favorites]

Can we continue the kitty names derail?

Wensleydale (full name: Wensleydale Archipelago Quadrilateral)
The Dale
Wensley Q. Dale
Densleywale Laudriquateral
Fatty
Fatness
Fatteous cateous
Chubby Bunny
Chunky Monkey

Tangerine is mostly just called "Bean" for reasons that defy explanation.

I support this derail as I like my cats more than I like Sarah Palin. I also think they'd be more qualified as governors, Vice Presidential candidates, or leaders of just about anything.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:16 PM on July 4 [4 favorites has favorites]

Cat-owners get so Sybil with the name calling.
posted by heyho at 12:20 PM on July 4

Why is "stupid cow" a sexist comment?

Well, it's a gender-specific comment— you wouldn't normally call a man a “cow”. I think the unstated assumption is that any gender-specific insult is necessarily sexist, though I'm not at all convinced of that.
posted by hattifattener at 12:29 PM on July 4

I did the "stupid cow" because I consider that a hidden synonym of "maverick," and am amused at the vast difference in rhetorical significance. I am apt to be coarse in the service of wordplay.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:43 PM on July 4

I wonder if 'maverick,' these days, is more likely to make people think of that closeted Scientologist fighter pilot guy.
posted by box at 12:49 PM on July 4

I'm leaving this discussion to go to a hot dog festival, which I think is amazingly funny.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:52 PM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

ROU_Xenophobe, referring to Autarky, writes:

Actually, no. While you can certainly voice that without using profanity, your short posting history is full of nasty finger-pointing chides and insults.

And then he provides several quotations mined from Autarky's posting history that utterly fail to substantiate his assertion. Here's the first quotation:

Wow, what an original thesis! And, of course, it goes without saying that you are one of the elite, the strong, the mighty, who, with an unbending will, face the cruelties and savageries of the short and miserable life on this cruel dark planet.

ROU_Xenophobe didn't provide a pointer to the context of any of the quotations, but I happened to remember this one, because I favorited it. So did eighteen other mefites, at least a few of whom are among the most liberal on Metafilter. The quoted comment was in response to one of the boring (but obnoxious) atheist trolls with which MetaFilter is sadly afflicted. It's the kind of comment I'd like to see more of here, and apparently I'm not alone in that sentiment.

As for the other quotations, I fail to see the nastiness in them. I see some frustration there, but they seem to be mostly accurate observations about the liberal skew of MetaFilter. Maybe when Autarky's been here longer, he'll get used to it. (It doesn't bother me so much because I agree with a lot of liberal politics, but I can understand the frustration of conservatives who aren't conservative for stupid reasons.)
posted by Crabby Appleton at 12:52 PM on July 4

Hot dog festival? The usual term around here is 'boyzone.'
posted by box at 12:53 PM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

As for the other quotations, I fail to see the nastiness in them.

I do see nastiness in the second. 'Obsession' characterizes the topic of homosexuality and gay marriage as ones that don't merit much attention and that are blatantly over-discussed.

As I pointed out with the tag stats, such topics aren't even nearly in the over-discussed range.

And the 'why do you people insist on talking about this unimportant topic?' angle is some condescending bull.
posted by CKmtl at 1:30 PM on July 4

At this juncture, we can conclude that Autarky is like our own ~~micro-Palin~~ Hitler, Stalin, and Satan in one combined, just another one of a handful of ~~whiny conservatives~~ people with slightly dissenting opinions who periodically ~~troll Metafilter~~ dare contradict Blazecock Pileon in any way. If we choose not to respond to their ~~shrill hyperbole~~ statements, no matter how calm or well-reasoned, ~~they~~ reality might go away.

posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:27 PM on July 4

FTFY
posted by Krrrlson at 1:34 PM on July 4 [2 favorites has favorites]

OH MY GOD I LOVE THIS SONG IT'S MY FAVORITE ON THE "MEFI'S GREATEST HITS" ALBUM
posted by pineapple at 1:39 PM on July 4 [5 favorites has favorites]

And the 'why do you people insist on talking about this unimportant topic?' angle is some condescending bull.

It's especially adorable coming from someone who, judging from his questions, appears to be about 19. Of course, being full of bull and arrogant about it, to boot, is kind of an occupational hazard of being 19 (or being Sarah Palin).
posted by scody at 1:39 PM on July 4

Why are FTFY comments not deemed totally unacceptable?
posted by Rhomboid at 1:46 PM on July 4 [7 favorites has favorites]

Why is the fact that I spent the from 11am to -4:30 cleaning the apartment and it looks exactly the same as when I started not deemed totally unacceptable?

Why is the fact that I did this because I have no 4th of July parties to go to not deemed totally unacceptable?
posted by The Whelk at 1:50 PM on July 4 [2 favorites has favorites]

Why are FTFY comments not deemed totally unacceptable?

That would take one of the last tactics away from another of our whiny, shrill conservative ilk. Give them some hope to hold on to!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:52 PM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

Why is the fact that I did this because I have no 4th of July parties to go to not deemed totally unacceptable?

You could easily start your own fête — I gave you my patented party burger recipe! The aroma of roasting shallots will bring uninvited guests from miles around.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:54 PM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

Why are FTFY comments ~~not~~ deemed totally unacceptable?

FTFYBNRSIBMTSTOMGDIJBYM?*

*Fixed that For You But Not Really Since It Basically Means The Same Thing Oh My God Did I Just Blow Your Mind?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 1:59 PM on July 4

Sadly Blazecock, I'm all out of shallots, beef, and the other celebratory aromas that bring people out of the woodwork.
posted by The Whelk at 1:59 PM on July 4

/me exudes celebratory aromas
posted by darkstar at 2:04 PM on July 4

My shallots bring all the bitches to the yard.
posted by hattifattener at 2:16 PM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

puff puff give, puff puff give. You're messing up the rotation.
posted by Rhomboid at 2:17 PM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

My shallots bring the gourmands to the court, Yea yes, all others fall short, truthfully I must retort. I could instruct you, but then I'd have to kill you.
posted by The Whelk at 2:20 PM on July 4 [9 favorites has favorites]

Rhomboid, didn't you hear? Darkstar is EXUDING, Just grab an arm and inhale.
posted by The Whelk at 2:20 PM on July 4

Arm? Lightweight.
posted by box at 2:21 PM on July 4

Any more and you have you to at least promise to call them afterward.
posted by The Whelk at 2:24 PM on July 4

The nuttiness of the Gruyere accentuates the taste of the whole-wheat bun, yo.
posted by box at 2:25 PM on July 4

Don't stop inhaling until you're shoulder-blade deep, at which point you may stop and call 911.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:25 PM on July 4

something something Blazecock something...
posted by darkstar at 2:25 PM on July 4

Shorter Blazecock Pileon:

BLAZECOCK PILEON!
posted by Dennis Murphy at 2:34 PM on July 4

Too bad there's no more MARQUEE tag.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:38 PM on July 4

*to the tune of Jesus Christ Superstar*

BLAAAAZECOCK! PIIIIIIIILEON!
posted by The Whelk at 2:39 PM on July 4

Now that I have a cat, I can play too!

Alberta
Albacat
Berta Berta Berta
No dammit do not bite my goddam feet
Pitski
Pistski katsiya [/mangled Romanian, as she came from a Romanian speaking household]
cat cat
furpot
purr monster
furry sealy cat
Want dinner? Yeah? What's for dinner? OMG it's Chicken Feast again!
posted by jokeefe at 2:54 PM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

My mom's dog can play the name game too!

Squirt
Squirtle
Squirtle Turtle
Turtle
Turtle Bear
Squirtle Turtle Bear
Bear
Baby Bear
Black Bear

My dog isn't nearly as good

Savage
Cabbages
Dog
Pupsi
Puppycat
Poopy Puppy
Pretty Puppy
Sauvage (so-vaaj)
Freddy Teddy
posted by Night_owl at 3:19 PM on July 4

Oh the blazecock has a pileon,
and he piles on Metatalk.

posted by box at 3:23 PM on July 4

Y'all are funny.

/roll 1-1
posted by cavalier at 3:27 PM on July 4

*to the tune of Jesus Christ Superstar*

BLAAAAZECOCK! PIIIIIIIILEON!

superstar!
riding around on his Yamaha.
the cops are there
but he don't care
becoz he's got his supersonic underwear.

ah, primary school...
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:31 PM on July 4

Welcome to the Palindrome, etc, etc.
posted by effluvia at 3:50 PM on July 4 [2 favorites has favorites]

I CALL A MORATORIUM ON...something.
posted by infinitywaltz at 4:17 PM on July 4

Hey OP - I'll take you seriously for a minute.

Sometimes I get a tad miffed at some of the Mefi culture. I'm a member of 2 groups that get slammed around these parts on occasion. At least once a week I read a comment that I think is incredibly unfair. Then I remember that the Mefi Nation is made up of lots of different voices - some I agree with; some I don't. There are more than a few who make their legitimate points in ways that might offend me. That's when I pull up my big girl panties and either defend my position or let it slide.

That said, can someone explain to me why the Republicans don't hate Palin more than the Democrats? Personally, I'm hoping the Republican party is stockpiling additional Palin clones who can come into close elections and behave as buffoonish as possible. Do you have any that look like Amy Poehler? She got the short end of the SNL skits.
posted by 26.2 at 5:00 PM on July 4 [2 favorites has favorites]

This is the Sarah Palin beanplating thread, right? Ok, great.

The LOL MIDWEST INBRED LOL thing is so goddamned old. Just knock it off. Milarepa's comment about Missouri only serves to illustrate how people are alienated into believing that assholes like Palin are the only ones in politics who represent their interests. Fuck's sake.
posted by Monsters at 5:01 PM on July 4

Now that I have a cat, I can play too!

Alberta

Do you live in Vancouver?
posted by elfgirl at 5:25 PM on July 4 [2 favorites has favorites]

300th!
posted by Elmore at 6:25 PM on July 4

I think of Sarah Palin as simply one more corrupt and avaricious pol from the bottomless pit that this country seems to be able to draw so consistently from. I believe she and all of her kind should be reviled as such - just as you would revile the tick bloating on your leg or any other parasite sucking your blood. Man or woman, they're all a threat to your health on some level.

I've had the misfortune of dealing with such people professionally, though on a much tinier scale. They are worthy of all the scorn you can dump on them, and I'll never personally object to any way anyone would ever choose to refer to them, though I choose not to use the word 'bitch' myself.

'Hellspawn' seems appropriate enough.
posted by metagnathous at 6:38 PM on July 4 [4 favorites has favorites]

No, see "Bitch crazy" isn't offensive because it strikes a balance between both racist and misogynist.

Sort of like the band name Whitesnake?
posted by NoMich at 7:37 PM on July 4

Awesome! Kitty names!

Martini (her given name)
Fuzzy
Dr. Fuzzy
Fuzzypants
Fuzzypants Malone
Fuzzbunch
Fuzzface
The Fuzzimer
Fuzz McGinterson
Kittimer
Kitterectomy
Kitty of the Ages
posted by Go Banana at 8:08 PM on July 4

Kitterodecectomy.

Hits at least three of MeFi's favourite pressure points.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:31 PM on July 4

Kitterodectomy.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:32 PM on July 4

bitch stole my fish

just in case there's anyone out there who still hasn't seen it...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 2:17 AM on July 4 [2 favorites -] Favorite added! [!]

I hadn't, FAM.

I am going to wash my eyes now. With child-safe organic Clorox for goatse-lite.
posted by humannaire at 8:56 PM on July 4

Long have I yearned to post my pet's pet names to MeFi.

Aloysius
Aloysius, Eater of Fishes
Al
Chicken-leg Al
Little Al, Our Best Pal
Bunnycat
Fuzzy Lumpkins
The Yard of Cat
His Nibs
Yowly McYowlerson
Teh Kitteh
Woodums
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:16 PM on July 4

Hey OP - I'll take you seriously for a minute.

ZOMG NO DONT DO THAT
posted by Autarky at 9:50 PM on July 4 [1 favorite has favorites]

Why are comments like this and this not deemed totally unacceptable?

Because the use of vernacular isn't banned, unless your Canadian or British, which means you can't use the "c" word.
posted by juiceCake at 10:23 PM on July 4

No, it's okay. We don't mind being called "Canucks."
posted by five fresh fish at 10:37 PM on July 4 [2 favorites has favorites]

Now that I have a cat, I can play too!

Alberta

Do you live in Vancouver?

Yes, I do-- are you a friend of Ioana's (or mine)?
posted by jokeefe at 10:45 PM on July 4

I'm going to try to squeeze in a couple of points about Palin and about the hateful language on this site between the precious cat jokes.

People say they get their news from "the blue" so I gave it a shot with Palin yesterday. The bitch references, jokes about mental retardation and other low blows directed at children created a hatefest like I've never seen.* Here's a hint: if your joke targets Republicans, mental retardation or children or women, you come across like a graduate of the Adam Sandler Mail-Order School of Comedic Writing. That means you're not funny.

Metafilter does not tolerate epithets thrown at African Americans, gays, Muslims, Jews, immigrants and members of other social, ethnic, and religious groups. Nor should we. Yet for some reason women, Christians and Republicans are fair game. Tolerance for intolerance, so to speak, is Metafilter's great weakness as a community.

In private conversations, I throw bitch and cunt around in ways that'd make a sailor blush. In private conversations I know my audience. Metafilter is not a private conversation.

I'm not a Republican. I'd wager I'm further to left than most people here. (To me, Obama has established a center-right government in which cheesy rhetoric distracts the electorate from noticing the lack of change.)

But I want to point out an irony about Michele Obama and Palin that the retarded/bitch/fat kid glee club fails to get.

Usually the press focuses on Michele Obama's sense of style or mothering skills-- traditional feminine concerns. Her public image aligns with those of past First Ladies from both sides of the aisle. She's following the tradition to stay out of politics, stay at home and busy herself with inane and appropriately feminine concerns like fashion. (Ironically, the only First Lady to break the mold in recent times is Hilary Clinton.)

The irony is that Michele Obama's image, cultivated and disseminated with such skill, mirrors precisely the image of the stylish wife and mother that Palin and her team tried so hard to project.

So all of y'all "progressives"*** hate away Republicans, Christians and women. But when you strip away the rhetoric, the Obama administration throws at us far more conservative gendered imagery than what you should accept. It's essentially in line with the Republican ideal of femininity.

When you use bitch, a word that dehumanizes-- literally-- women, you contribute to the general slowdown of change for marginalized groups in US society. Maybe even a group you belong to! That puts you in collusion with the "Christians" and "Republicans" y'all all claim to hate so very, very much.

* & **: Yeah, I get the excuse for hating on Republicans and Christians is that they hate you or your group or your values. Eye for an eye, great. But a weak excuse for using language that makes many on Metafilter uncomfortable.

***: By "progressive" I mean whatever term the anti-Palin glee club uses for itself politically.
posted by vincele at 11:06 PM on July 4 [13 favorites has favorites]

Kitteh came from the rescue foundation officially named Brad Pitt for his blue eyes
but he drools so much when he's purrin' happy that he ended up "Juicyface" AKA

Juice
Juicy
JUICY!!(with a Cuban accent)
Crazylegs
Purrbox
Purrboxites
Clickytoes
Walkaroundius
Cocopuffs
Vomitpuss
posted by longsleeves at 11:08 PM on July 4

The LOL MIDWEST INBRED LOL thing is so goddamned old. Just knock it off. Milarepa's comment about Missouri only serves to illustrate how people are alienated into believing that assholes like Palin are the only ones in politics who represent their interests. Fuck's sake.

Jeez, people are so touchy these days. First of all, I was born in Illinois and raised all over the midwest. Second, I just picked a random state. It was a simple fill in the blank joke. If I was being serious, I obviously would have chosen New Jersey. See? I did it again.
posted by milarepa at 11:17 PM on July 4

Metafilter is not a private conversation
That's why I'd like to state publicly:
Remember that thing we talked about? The one you wanted me to stop doing because you don't like it? I still do it when you aren't looking.
posted by Bernt Pancreas at 11:21 PM on July 4 [2 favorites has favorites]

jokes about mental retardation and other low blows directed at children created a hatefest like I've never seen.

Two points:

1) never ventured over to FreeRepublic for five minutes, have you?

2) what do you make of the fact that the comments telling posters to knock it off with the bullshit about children outnumbered the actual shitty comments about children about 10 to 1? Seriouly, I want to know. Because for the very few awful comments about Bristol Palin and Trig Palin that got made, there were many, many more that swiftly and unequivocally stated that children are OFF LIMITS, and such comments all garnered dozens of favorites. How exactly does that play into your characterization of metafilter as a hitherto-unknown cesspool of viciousness toward children?
posted by scody at 11:23 PM on July 4 [17 favorites has favorites]

Seriouly, I want to know.

The answer is that the sky is falling!! Oh noes!11!!!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:46 PM on July 4

The sky IS falling, man, because I have yet to try a delicious Blazecock Burger. This cannot stand.
posted by scody at 12:04 AM on July 5

Cognitive dissonance is a helluva drug.
posted by darkstar at 12:10 AM on July 5

Oh yes, I read Free Republic, but I read Stormfront and Vanguard more often. They provide a better overview of the niches on the far right. Free Republic has less diversity amongst its posters for it to be on my regular right reading rotation. I'd add the KKK and militias too but they are too disorganized to update their sites daily.

If you look at my posting history you'll see that I've commented about the internet presence of the far right in the past. It might come as a shock that people sometimes desire to learn about subjects they find grossly inhumane.

Are you suggesting that Metafilter serve as the "left-wing" alternative to Free Republic's echo chamber of right-wing, undereducated fanatics? I do not believe that Metafilter should aspire to mirror the discourse on Free Republic.

Or are you employing the eye-for-an-eye defense (They do it so we'll do it back at them)?

Whichever, your point is a weak one. I simply wish that other members would not throw around words offensive to me and at least some other women members of Metafilter.

Furthermore, I do not characterize "metafilter as a hitherto-unknown cesspool of viciousness toward children." I said that yesterday was the first time I tried to follow a breaking-news political thread on the blue. The nature of jokes about Palin herself and her kids turned me off. I flagged a retardation joke, and apparently Cortex deleted it.

I left the thread for newspaper sites and the Huffington Post. And yes, I checked in with the truly hateful idiots on Stormfront to see how they spun it. I don't read Metafilter for the low-brow humor or misogyny that rears its head on occasion. Why return to a Metafilter thread that made me uncomfortable? In the words of the bad-guy surfers about to beat up Keanu Reeves before Patrick Swayze shows up to save the day in Point Break, "That would be a waste of time."

I would have stayed out of this Metatalk thread if I did not expect criticism. However, I think the sexist language on the site is a problem and some of the jokes about Palin were over the top. I also think you kind of grossly misrepresent what I said: People say they get their news from "the blue" so I gave it a shot with Palin yesterday. The bitch references, jokes about mental retardation and other low blows directed at children created a hatefest like I've never seen.

It's very late my time and I am up against a deadline later today. It was important to me to say what I wanted to say. Now I must excuse myself.
posted by vincele at 1:02 AM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

Are you suggesting that Metafilter serve as the "left-wing" alternative to Free Republic's echo chamber of right-wing, undereducated fanatics? I do not believe that Metafilter should aspire to mirror the discourse on Free Republic.

"Hi, yes, this is Strawman. Just inquiring as to whether I will ever be allowed to stop beating my wife?"

*pregnant pause*

"Okay, talk to you guys again shortly, I guess."
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:09 AM on July 5 [5 favorites has favorites]

...created a hatefest like I've never seen.

Again, you completely ignore the overwhelming self-corrective action on the Blue when this happens. Why, it's almost as if you can only see those inflammatory comments that confirm your bias, but the guy-in-the-gorilla-suit comments of so many other folks that call out those inflammatory statements are completely invisible to you.

So I have to repeat the question: you've spent time on Free Republic, Stormfront and Vanguard but it's the Sarah Palin thread on MeFi that constitutes "a hatefest like you've never seen"? Wow.

Once again, confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance FTW!
posted by darkstar at 1:18 AM on July 5 [5 favorites has favorites]

If you look at my posting history you'll see that I've commented about the internet presence of the far right in the past. It might come as a shock that people sometimes desire to learn about subjects they find grossly inhumane.

And if you look at my posting history, you'll see that a former close friend of mine, who I've known for more than 25 years, now runs a white supremacist radio show. You'll also see that I'm an editor who recently published a book on art and politics in East and West Germany, which included significant research into the Auschwitz trials in the 1960s. So it might come as a shock to you that, amazingly, you're not the only one in a community of tens of thousands of members who is enlightened enough to pursue an understanding of dark, complex subjects of social and historical significance.

Furthermore, I do not characterize "metafilter as a hitherto-unknown cesspool of viciousness toward children."

Bull. You stated that it was a "hatefest like [you] had never seen." Coming from someone who reads Stormfront, etc. this can only mean one of two things: Either you let your hyperbole get the best of you in your effort to paint this entire community with that incredibly broad* brush you're toting around -- which: hey, fine, happens to the best of us, but you'll have a lot more credibility if you own up to it -- or you actually contend that Metafilter is more hateful than Stormfront. So which is it?

And you have, indeed, neatly sidestepped the point of what I said originally. What do you make of the fact that a significant number of people in the thread chimed in immediately to get the subject matter OFF taking potshots at the mentally retarded and children? How, precisely, does that (and the fact that, by your own admission, you flagged a joke about retardation that was deleted by a mod!) fit in with your characterization with metafilter as an unmitigated hatefest?

I don't read Metafilter for the low-brow humor or misogyny that rears its head on occasion.

Well, when it comes to lowbrow humor, as BitterOldPunk said upthread, Metafilter is like a house party where there's room for philosophical conversations and fart jokes alike. You might not like fart jokes, but you're not going to get very far by insisting that they stop.

The misogyny, when it rears its head, is generally more constructively fought by refraining from insulting the entire community -- as you might glean from reading the many, many discussions and debates that many, many women and men here have taken part in for about a decade now.

*NOT BROAD-IST
posted by scody at 1:55 AM on July 5 [24 favorites has favorites]

vincele: But when you strip away the rhetoric, the Obama administration throws at us far more conservative gendered imagery than what you should accept. It's essentially in line with the Republican ideal of femininity.

Please expand on this point. I'm especially interested in examples of the conservative gendered imagery that the Obama administration throws at us.

I simply wish that other members would not throw around words offensive to me and at least some other women members of Metafilter.

This issue has come up before. You might want to read through this thread. (Make a big fat cup of tea and find a comfy chair first.)

Furthermore, I do not characterize "metafilter as a hitherto-unknown cesspool of viciousness toward children." I said that yesterday was the first time I tried to follow a breaking-news political thread on the blue. The nature of jokes about Palin herself and her kids turned me off. I flagged a retardation joke, and apparently Cortex deleted it.

So the comment you were most offended by, the one comment you flagged, was deleted by a mod? Not sure what you're complaining about, then. You will never, ever, read a breaking-news political thread without encountering comments that turn you off -- and I'm not sure why you'd expect that from a site with thousands of active members.
posted by dogrose at 2:13 AM on July 5

The irony is that Michele Obama's image, cultivated and disseminated with such skill, mirrors precisely the image of the stylish wife and mother that Palin and her team tried so hard to project.

So all of y'all "progressives" hate away Republicans, Christians and women. But when you strip away the rhetoric, the Obama administration throws at us far more conservative gendered imagery than what you should accept. It's essentially in line with the Republican ideal of femininity.

vincele, are you seriously comparing the spouse of a politician to an actual politician? I'm not American, but Mrs. Obama didn't run for and doesn't hold a public office, does she? Does the American people expect her to lead a branch of government or something?

Palin, she ran for vp and is an elected governor (for a few more weeks), no? Isn't she expected to do and know all kinds of politician-type shit? As in, that's the focus on her public persona. Or at least it's supposed to be, I guess. Like the focus on e.g. secretary of state Clinton is her skills as a politician, not as a beauty queen/mother/whatever.

I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make, but you're fucking it up whatever it is.
posted by Glee at 2:25 AM on July 5 [5 favorites has favorites]

I favorited both vincele & scody's comments, if we want to talk about cognitive dissonance.

I agree that MeFi doesn't do tolerance of "The Right" very well and that some jokes do have a certain Mail-In quality about them...

As for the rest? Yeah, the level of "CUT THAT SHIT OUT!" vs. actual hateful speech is really much, much higher. I totally disagree that MeFi can be the largest hatefest that anyone has ever seen unless they never read blog comments. Personally, the largest hatefest *I* have seen on the internet is when dooce remodeled her bathroom and people left comments saying that she's a horrible person who should be saving starving orphans because we're all going to die. What a mess.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 3:27 AM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

I think the most disgusting hate-fest I've ever read online has been just about anything dealing with Rachel Corrie across various right wing sites.

Comparing a little roasting of Sarah "Winky" Palin to the creepily lockstep and gleeful gloating over the violent death of an actual person... it's like a fart in a windstorm.
posted by fleacircus at 4:39 AM on July 5

Scody, my more charitable reading of Vincele's comment was that it was a hatefest like s/he had never seen on Metafilter.

Which seems to fit with Vincele's admission that this was the first thread involving breaking political news s/he had ever ventured into.

If somebody's previous Metafilter experience skewed towards flash games, bacon and alphabet threads, I can see how diving headfirst into a Palin thread would be an unpleasant shock.

And even if I'm wrong in my reading of the comment, the fact that somebody used hyperbole is not a reason to discount everything else they've said, or at least that's what my mom always told me...

"But Mom, you haven't told me a million times to tidy my room. You only told me seven times. If you're going to lie to me, I'm not going to tidy. So there!"*

*This almost never ended well.
posted by the latin mouse at 4:59 AM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

(A windstorm consisting of thousands of much, much stinkier farts.)
posted by fleacircus at 5:00 AM on July 5

So the comment you were most offended by, the one comment you flagged, was deleted by a mod?
Dogrose: I only know that Cortex deleted a retardation comment because he mentioned it somewhere in this thread.

are you seriously comparing the spouse of a politician to an actual politician? I'm not American, but Mrs. Obama didn't run for and doesn't hold a public office, does she?

Glee: The First Lady has an official staff, decides the causes she supports and events she attends. Each First Lady has had different type of involvement in public and political affairs (political in the broad sense). Mrs. Bush supported the literacy programs, for instance.

I have great respect for Michele Obama. I am not sure what Mrs. Obama’s focus is. I am sure she has one, but press coverage most often places her at fashion shows and pop concerts with her daughters. That's not an accident. My point is that the way that the White House presents her and her activities in the press is actually quite conservative. The emphasis is on her as an attractive, fashionable wife and mother. I get what you're saying about her not being an elected official, but the First Lady is a very special type of public figure, and I think the comparison to Palin is fair.

I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make, but you're fucking it up whatever it is.

I'm not fucking it up. Sorry. You either disagree with me or don't understand me. I'm sure many people disagree with me. That's ok.

scody, it sucks that you’re having a hard time understanding that this Metatalk post is about that Palin thread. The bitch references, jokes about mental retardation and other low blows directed at children— all of those are points mentioned here, in this Metatalk post, about the Palin thread.

So it should not be a stretch to recognize that in a Metatalk post about the Palin thread, I'm referencing the Palin thread and specific comments in the Palin thread about Palin and her family.

It's ludicrous to suggest I'm calling Metafilter the community "a hatefest." There is no hyperbole. On my part.

Ah! Here’s the sentence that enraged you:
Me: People say they get their news from "the blue" so I gave it a shot with Palin yesterday. The bitch references, jokes about mental retardation and other low blows directed at children created a hatefest like I've never seen.

The hatefest I'm referring to in the context of this metatalk discussion about the Palin thread is nothing other than the Palin thread itself. What I read of the Palin thread was indeed a hatefest.

And you have, indeed, neatly sidestepped the point of what I said originally. What do you make of the fact that a significant number of people in the thread chimed in immediately to get the subject matter OFF taking potshots at the mentally retarded and children?

Actually, no. Here’s what I said that neatly steps on your point:
The nature of jokes about Palin herself and her kids turned me off. I flagged a retardation joke, and apparently Cortex deleted it.
Ok, so the Palin thread up to that point made me uncomfortable this is what I did:

I left the thread for newspaper sites and the Huffington Post. And yes, I checked in with the truly hateful idiots on Stormfront to see how they spun it.

Then in an eloquent choice of words you compare complaints about misogyny to fart jokes. I'll just ignore that for the moment. You say: You might not like fart jokes, but you're not going to get very far by insisting that they stop.

I agree. I even wrote plainly: Why return to a Metafilter thread that made me uncomfortable? I don't read Metafilter for the low-brow humor or misogyny that rears its head on occasion.

I skip the stuff I don’t care for. So I didn’t come back to the Palin thread because it was heading in a nasty direction when I left. I’m glad that people jumped in and put a stop to the nastiness, but some of the comments I saw in this Metatalk post-- remember, it is about the Palin thread-- were truly ugly.

I’ve read the gender discussions. I gleaned that all of the discussions about gender were contentious. We didn’t come to a consensus about what is and is not acceptable, if even such a thing were possible. I glean that the amount of hurtful language hurled at women has decreased since the last major discussion, but at the point I left the Palin thread, it seemed that all that gleaning by “many, many women and men here” was going to have been for nothing.

I hope that you now glean that this post is about the Palin thread, and that my comments about hateful language were made in the context of a discussion about the Palin thread, which did contain a lot of outrageous "jokes" when I left it.

Then scody claims I'm calling for an end to low-brow humor, when my words were, correctly quoted by scodyI don't read Metafilter for the low-brow humor or misogyny that rears its head on occasion.

Scody then writes to make it appear as if he's equating fart jokes and misogyny::
Well, when it comes to lowbrow humor, as BitterOldPunk said upthread, Metafilter is like a house party where there's room for philosophical conversations and fart jokes alike. You might not like fart jokes, but you're not going to get very far by insisting that they stop.

No, fart jokes are your prerogative. I don't insist they stop. I insist this site would be better without misogyny. I also have the prerogative to begin reading a thread, get disgusted by it and stop reading, and then later call it a "hatefest." I'm glad it was cleaned up. I'm sad that people wrote hateful things about women and children in it to begin with. Hating women does not equal a fart joke, as you know.

scody: You'll also see that I'm an editor who recently published a book on art and politics in East and West Germany, which included significant research into the Auschwitz trials in the 1960s. So it might come as a shock to you that, amazingly, you're not the only one in a community of tens of thousands of members who is enlightened enough to pursue an understanding of dark, complex subjects of social and historical significance

Um, ok. I was just answering your question about Free Republic.
posted by vincele at 6:17 AM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

the_latin_mouse: Thanks. I don't know anything about flash games and alphabet threads, although I do know the endless jokes about bacon. You are right in that I don't read the blue often and I had never read a political thread. It was my first experience, and I cut it short.

I read Ask Metafilter and I read Metatalk. That's why it shocked me that despite all the turmoil Metafilter has been through over gender, people would still make comments like the ones I saw, even though it sounds like others called for the deletion of (even more!) offensive comments. That part is good.

The idea that conservative women are fair game for sexist jokes? Quite frankly that creeps me out. Who gets to decide? Who else is fair game?

As for my other point, if you look at the way the US Democratic Party portrays its powerful women, it is more conservative than it has been in years.

I don't have anything else to say about the bizarre...reaction? fit? avalanche of hysteria? But I'm glad to know that one person at least read what I wrote instead of subsequent misleading summaries.
posted by vincele at 6:44 AM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

The idea that conservative women are fair game for sexist jokes? Quite frankly that creeps me out.

Sexist jokes get made about liberal women too. Sexist jokes get made about women, period. It happens in here.

Who gets to decide?

The mods. And the way that other posters can best express their displeasure with a particular comment to a mod is to simply flag it.

....It's what I do. Sometimes it works -- sometimes it doesn't. If I flag a comment, and it gets removed, then great. ...But if I flag it, and it doesn't get removed....I either assume that the mods are trying to protect the rights of those with viewpoints opposite mine, which I also support, or that maybe I'm the only one who had a problem with a given comment, and....you know, that happens too.

Yeah, there is stuff that bugs the snot out of me, but I'm the only person it bugs the snot out of -- and asking the mods to delete a comment if I'm the only person it bothers isn't fair to everyone else, and I accept that.

I'll grant you I don't know how flagging works, but I suspect that if something only gets one flag, the mods check it out and consider it -- but a comment that gets FIFTY flags maybe gets more serious consideration and quicker deletion. I'm assuming that's how it works. So I contribute to the flag count if something bugs me, and wait to see what happens.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:58 AM on July 5

I am not sure what Mrs. Obama’s focus is.

Really? She's made it perfectly clear that she's the Mom-in-chief and her main focus is keeping her kids and husband happy and healthy.

Not sure I'd agree that she's an example of conservative values. Choosing to be supportive of your family crosses any political leanings

but the First Lady is a very special type of public figure, and I think the comparison to Palin is fair

No, it's not. Palin has a state to answer to, she has legal requirements about how she should conduct herself and her business affairs and state affairs. Michelle is not working on legislation or building a political party or running for anything.

Scody then writes to make it appear as if he's equating fart jokes and misogyny:

Would it kill you to at least look at her profile before assuming gender?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:08 AM on July 5 [9 favorites has favorites]

Alberta

Do you live in Vancouver?

Yes, I do-- are you a friend of Ioana's (or mine)?

Not unless you live on Avenue Q.

What are the chances?!
posted by elfgirl at 7:22 AM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

Scody then writes to make it appear as if he's equating fart jokes and misogyny

Or: Gender assumptions, UR DOIN IT RIGHT.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:48 AM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

The idea that conservative women are fair game for sexist jokes? Quite frankly that creeps me out.

It's like there's a whole straw army shambling along!

There is no idea that conservative women are fair game for sexist jokes.

There is an idea that over-the-top-right-wing badly-educated deeply-inarticulate vicious-anti-women-buy-your-own-rape-kit utterly-unqualified believes-in-witchcraft by-some-reports-believes-dinosaurs-walked-with-humans visibly-very-ignorant candidates for vice president of the US selected in a visibly contemptuous, clumsy, cynical process are fair game for many jokes, arguably including mildly sexist ones that use the stock phrase "because bitch crazy" though many found it offensive, but that they are not really fair game for cracks about their appearance or jokes about their retarded offspring.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:57 AM on July 5 [6 favorites has favorites]

(A) Claims that MetaFilter does not tolerate the right well are false. MeFi is generally supportive of the Dems. The Dems are not a leftist party: by world standards, they are to the right.

(B) It's probably for the best that the media is not portraying Michelle Obama as a powerful, political person. A lot of Americans are having a difficult enough time coping with a black President. It is undoubtedly for the best that Michelle is not as politically active as Hilary Clinton was during Bill's time in office.

(C) What MeFi does not tolerate well, and thank the gods that it doesn't, is ignorance, stupidity, lying, and cheating. It is of little surprise that when a politician embodies all of those qualities, the knives come out.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:18 AM on July 5 [3 favorites has favorites]

Why return to a Metafilter thread that made me uncomfortable? In the words of the bad-guy surfers about to beat up Keanu Reeves before Patrick Swayze shows up to save the day in Point Break, "That would be a waste of time."

If you're going to make a reference this sweet, you might as well note that it was Anthony Keidis who delivered the line. Anyway, vincele, I suggest that you retreat off this particular hill. No matter the validity of your argument, there's nothing to be gained by fighting all comers.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:28 AM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

I have great respect for Michele Obama. I am not sure what Mrs. Obama’s focus is. I am sure she has one, but press coverage most often places her at fashion shows and pop concerts with her daughters. That's not an accident. My point is that the way that the White House presents her and her activities in the press is actually quite conservative. The emphasis is on her as an attractive, fashionable wife and mother. I get what you're saying about her not being an elected official, but the First Lady is a very special type of public figure, and I think the comparison to Palin is fair.

Has it occurred to you that, maybe, Michelle Obama is doing what Michelle Obama wants to do? Isn't it a bit sexist to assume her activities are imposed on her, and presented to the public, by a big, conservative White House machine?

The most respectful, non-sexist way to consider Michelle Obama is to assume she wants to go to fashion shows, wants to dress fashionably, and wants to focus on being a wife and mother. Why are you assuming that these activities are anything other than her choice of what to do with her time?
posted by jayder at 8:37 AM on July 5 [4 favorites has favorites]

Michele Obama's primary public issue is focusing on military families and their issues.

Vincele, I can appreciate where you are coming from. I did not like some of the things that later got deleted out of that thread (and a few that stayed), but the reaction to them was so strong (in both flat out "that is unacceptable" and "that is unacceptable, and I'm going to educate you as to why" statements) among our community to the inappropriate child and "retard" jokes that I was appeased. I can understand how - not having gone back to the thread - you wouldn't have had that experience, and wouldn't know that those people had been called out and rebuked by many folks, and cheered on by people who didn't want to further clutter the thread focusing on the jerkiness But they were.

Many comments were deleted (when the Mods delete comments, they generally don't post messages unless they need to deliver a "quit it!" message to serial or group assholishness) based on flags and outcry in the thread. If I understand past podcasts correctly, they keep a close eye on the flag queue and on contentious threads. They aren't on 100% of the time, so sometimes the pernicious comments will sit around for a couple hours, but the flags will pile up - and so will the responses pointing out that that behavior is unacceptable.

I don't see any signs that conservative women in particular are fair game for sexist jokes on Metafilter, outside of a few individuals (whom I think are more inclined to look at all women in politics as fodder for sexist jokes of various types), but we live in an age where women in politics are judged far more on their appearance/womanliness than their male counterparts are, and I believe that makes it seem more acceptable for the GILF jokes, for 5 minute TV discussions on the legs of a political figure, tv skits on the ugliness of presidential kids, and for conversations around the appearance of a female candidate or a wife or the kids. A candidate like Palin - who chooses form over function most of the time and projects an image that's she's Everywoman (just like you - but even more so! More kids! More Power! More Folksy! More Pretty!) - provides lots of fodder for people who don't stop and think about the fact that conversations about the superficial do no favors to them, their audience, or their cause regardless of whether they are pro, con, or ostensibly neutral.

I actually think we havea less of it on MF than in real life, but that may just be a commentary on the people around me in real life.
posted by julen at 8:41 AM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

Maybe they can do something like bleeping. So every time someone write "Sarah Palin is a bitch" it would show up as "Sarah Palin is a [smurf]*" and "I'm so sick of that stupid bitch" would show up as "I'm so sick of that stupid [smurf]."

Get it? Because then hilarity could ensue and we'd all be friends.

Tangential, honest, and possibly stupid question: is this what is going on with the "rear end in a top hat" stuff on Something Awful? I have never understood what that was about. Any crossover MeFite/Goons out there to educate me?
posted by naoko at 8:59 AM on July 5

What MeFi does not tolerate well, and thank the gods that it doesn't, is ignorance, stupidity, lying, and cheating. It is of little surprise that when a politician embodies all of those qualities, the knives come out.

...at her mentally disabled child. Yes, that's perfectly reasonable.
posted by Krrrlson at 9:02 AM on July 5

I was just relieved the link's content was on a single page - those anti-pagination comments just get me so darn upset!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:10 AM on July 5

Why are you assuming that these activities are anything other than her choice of what to do with her time?

no one gets to that level in american political life without every nuance of meaning being examined very carefully - she still has some choice, but she has an image to manage as does her husband
posted by pyramid termite at 9:10 AM on July 5

The hatefest I'm referring to in the context of this metatalk discussion about the Palin thread is nothing other than the Palin thread itself. What I read of the Palin thread was indeed a hatefest.

But you said it was a a "hatefest like I've never seen." Which implies that you've seen other hatefests, and this one was worse. So what was the comparison point? The (current) Palin thread is a hatefest worse than this meTa thread? Or something?

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack posts on fire in the grey. I watched favorited comments glitter in the dark near the end of a thread. All those moments will be lost in time... like posts in music... Time for coffee...

As in most hot-button political threads, there was/is a lot of stuff in the most recent Palin thread that made me roll my eyes and/or sputter. But the word "bitch" has been used three times in that thread, and one of those comments was talking about its use in the thread. As scody said above, the worst of the comments attacking the kids were deleted or roundly denounced. I do not count those things as being in any way supportive of comments like that. The use of misogynist language/imagery is a much longer, ongoing battle, and it does indeed go on. I've only been a member a little over two years, but in that time I have seen it decrease, or at least get challenged/talked about/discussed/fought over/taken seriously. For what it's worth.
posted by rtha at 9:11 AM on July 5 [5 favorites has favorites]

Tangential, honest, and possibly stupid question: is this what is going on with the "rear end in a top hat" stuff on Something Awful?

Yep, the 'rear end' bowdlerisms are an auto-replace thing they use for guests. If you were logged in you'd see the assholes.
posted by the latin mouse at 9:46 AM on July 5

scody, it sucks that you’re having a hard time understanding that this Metatalk post is about that Palin thread...I hope that you now glean that this post is about the Palin thread

Oh vincele, if you had a point, you lost it the moment you tried to school scody on "how to read Metafilter". Because that shit, honey, is just stupid.
posted by donnagirl at 9:55 AM on July 5 [4 favorites has favorites]

vincele: My point is that the way that the White House presents her and her activities in the press is actually quite conservative. The emphasis is on her as an attractive, fashionable wife and mother.

Ok, so your point was the Mrs. Obama vs governor Palin comparison. Got it.

I get what you're saying about her not being an elected official, but the First Lady is a very special type of public figure, and I think the comparison to Palin is fair.

Well one of us is wrong.

I'm not fucking it up. Sorry. You either disagree with me or don't understand me. I'm sure many people disagree with me. That's ok.

Governor Palin: you could vote for her.
Mrs. Obama: you could not vote for her.

They can't be compared the way you did. Which is why I pointed to secretary of state Clinton instead. Clinton's and Palin's performances are (should be) the focus. They got elected on a platform and are evaluated by how they deliver. (I realize in the real world that's not nearly the whole story, that there are different/additional standards for women in politics and elsewhere. That's fucked up and we must become much better than that.)

The other part of your claim: that the Obama administration is actively creating and presenting Mrs. Obama as the cool fashionista mom. I.e. that it's not a narrative the independent media has chosen based on a small slice of who they think she is, and/or what she personally is willing to made public, etc.

You need to do some legwork to back that up. I'm not saying your wrong, but that's a big claim and needs verifiable facts from independent sources.

It's horseshit if the press ignores important work she's doing to focus instead on the shoes she's wearing. But much worse if the White House is actively shaping that narrative and has created such a public persona for Mrs. Obama.
posted by Glee at 10:30 AM on July 5

(...and when I write Clinton was elected, I'm referring to her old job as senator. Damn post was edited down to 20% of the original.)
posted by Glee at 10:38 AM on July 5

...at her mentally disabled child. Yes, that's perfectly reasonable.

"Hi, Strawman here. Just checking in on the thread. How you guys doin'?"
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:04 AM on July 5

Bookhouse: I retreated long ago. When people on this site smell blood on a Sunday, adults trot out the condescending "honeys," and self-descriptions like this appear:

And if you look at my posting history, you'll see that a former close friend of mine, who I've known for more than 25 years, now runs a white supremacist radio show. You'll also see that I'm an editor who recently published a book on art and politics in East and West Germany, which included significant research into the Auschwitz trials in the 1960s.

I know I've got no business arguing that the US is still a deeply conservative society and the use "bitch" is unacceptable in my opinion on this website. Better minds than mine get the big picture.
posted by vincele at 11:04 AM on July 5

I'll grant you I don't know how flagging works, but I suspect that if something only gets one flag, the mods check it out and consider it -- but a comment that gets FIFTY flags maybe gets more serious consideration and quicker deletion. I'm assuming that's how it works. So I contribute to the flag count if something bugs me, and wait to see what happens.

Just to be totally mod-dorky for a second, this is about right. We can see what the top-flagged stuff is. If something gets a lot of flags we look at it and decide what to do quickly. If something has one or two flags we'll look at it and think about what to do but often what we do is "wait and see". On AskMe there's a lower threshold for how many flags something has before we think that the community is likely saying that it's a problem. We don't look at MeTa flags with haste unless there are a lot of them since there are fewer against the rules thing you can do in MetaTalk.

And, while it's not what we'd love to do at all times, if you've got a question like "why was/wasn't this removed?" you are more than welcome to ask us and we'll give it our best shot at explaining the thought process that went into it. Oftentimes it's one of those things that is heavily contextualized [as in this case, US holiday weekend for example] but we're happy to try to unpack it for you.
posted by jessamyn at 11:07 AM on July 5

Scody then writes to make it appear as if he's equating fart jokes and misogyny

*grins*

What's most awesome about this is that I now don't have to spend a single minute deconstructing your weak arguments that appear to be predicated, in fairly substantial part, on a lack of attention to detail and a series of false assumptions about various members of this community. Thanks!
posted by scody at 11:14 AM on July 5 [8 favorites has favorites]

Attacking Palin with gendered terms like "bitch" means you're adding being a woman to the pile of things you think it's okay to attack her about.

Yes, Palin is a vile idiotic batshit crazy vapid inarticulate corrupt opportunistic venal counter-feminist wingnut polemicizing rabble-rouser with moosecrap and rancid bear grease for brains. But she'd still be any of these things if she were male. Being female, in and of itself, is not what makes Palin detestable* and should not be the grounds on which you attack her. Using gendered insults against her sends an implicit message that yeah, women can have full equality and empowerment and be respected and all that, but only if they behave in a manner palatable to the community as a whole.

Metafilter prides itself on being more intelligent and coherent in general than other online discussion sites - surely we can come up with more creative and relevant attacks than "bitch"?

*although her tactic of playing up the fact that she is female in order to score political points definitely is, and she should rightly be called on that behavior.
posted by casarkos at 11:38 AM on July 5 [6 favorites has favorites]

Better minds than mine get the big picture.

posted by vincele at 11:04 AM on July 5 [+] [!]

So when none of your substantive claims holds up to scrutiny, you claim that at least your "big picture" is correct, and you don't bother to explain it but you confidently avow that smarter people understand it?

Nice move.
posted by jayder at 12:00 PM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

MetaFilter: Better minds than mine get the big picture.
posted by ericb at 12:14 PM on July 5 [3 favorites has favorites]

When people on this site smell blood on a Sunday ... self-descriptions like this appear:

Uh. That 'self-description' appeared, not because there was blood in the water, but because you started the "look upon my previously published works and behold the depths of the horrors that I have plumbed!" experiential dick-measuring with scody.
posted by CKmtl at 12:48 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

For the last couple of days I've been watching the fallout from my casual (and yes, snarky, and made completely without venom) comment in the Palin thread. To anyone who was sincerely offended by my use of the word "bitch" and its connotation as a gendered insult, I do apologize. To anyone who just jumped in to stir the pot, get over it.

With that said: I am not the sort of person who throws the word "bitch" around carelessly. And, as far as it can be considered a sexist term, I can think of many more terms lobbed toward Ms. Palin -- not necessarily used with any frequency here on MeFi -- that are many, many times more sexist and demeaning. "Caribou Barbie" is one. "Snow bunny" is another. Those terms strictly refer to her as a woman of no particular substance, a plastic toy or an animal whose reproductive powers are legend. But "bitch"? Yeah, I have to say she actually earned that one. I disagree that there is no defense, ever, for using the word. Sometimes if the shoe fits...

Also, I do find it mildly amusing that nobody has taken to task the statement that she's crazy. Glad that still stands on its' own.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a meal of beans to eat.
posted by contessa at 12:55 PM on July 5 [3 favorites has favorites]

Is calling Palin a bitch is any more sexist than calling Sanford a dick?

'cause you know, he is.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:04 PM on July 5

I’ve read the gender discussions. I gleaned that all of the discussions about gender were contentious. We didn’t come to a consensus about what is and is not acceptable, if even such a thing were possible. I glean that the amount of hurtful language hurled at women has decreased since the last major discussion, but at the point I left the Palin thread, it seemed that all that gleaning by “many, many women and men here” was going to have been for nothing.

It's only "for nothing" if you consider the situation a strict binary, which is a deeply unrealistic way to approach a large, heterogeneous community in aggregate. Metafilter is not and never will be a cohesive, single-minded entity; progress on social issues internal and external to the site is measured in degrees, in portions and fractions, over time.

I'm not happy that some folks have lapsed into lazy or pointlessly gender-driven criticisms of and swipes at and jokes about Palin or taken potshots at her kids. I am happy that the number of folks doing so is as small as it is, and that the number of folks willing to vocally address that behavior is a large as it is. There will always, always be people pushing out toward the edges behaviorally, and expecting that not to be so is naive at best.

Metafilter can be a bumpy place, and I dislike some things about the way political/ideological threads can go around here, and I dislike some of the Palin-centric stuff we've seen over the last year as a specific case of ways in which it can go badly. That said, you're probably better off choosing either to (a) engage with the political stuff here with all its warts and really acclimate yourself to the good and the bad of it and treat with that whole spectrum or (b) staying out of such stuff as a matter of course, because dipping only a toe in and then complaining in detail about what you've admitted you haven't really immersed yourself in tends to lead to exactly the sort of frustrated friction from more fully engaged veterans of mefi political discourse that you're seeing here.
posted by cortex at 1:04 PM on July 5 [3 favorites has favorites]

"Hi, Strawman here. Just checking in on the thread. How you guys doin'?"

Yep. Classic straw man. Just yell louder and reality will go away, I promise.
posted by Krrrlson at 1:17 PM on July 5

OMFG! HAHAHAHAHAHA! I'd never seen that before!
posted by jokeefe at 2:12 PM on July 5

Any of my beloved Mefi sisters care to help me understand how to NOT foster gendered resentment of Palin, who, as a conniving, anti-feminist, power-hungry, fact-fucking culture warrior, does make me want to shun her _as_ a woman?

I feel like there is and has been better discourse within the black community regarding, pardon how white I sound here, "representing," as something a group member can do so poorly as to disparage the group at large, which of course is only a risk because of endemic disempowerment in the first place, but an ongoing pragmatic concern, and I seriously can't navigate through that miasma and decide how to react to the kind of woman Sarah Palin is, in furtherance of my feminism.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:17 PM on July 5

I think there is no sexism or hypocrisy here- ANY politician that trots their family out as props, as a part of their image, opens themselves up to people using their failings as examples of that politician's failings. Any politician who demonstrates that their political ambitions are more important than taking care of their family rightly deserves to be criticized. Right or left, man or woman, the public expects a politician to have their lives in order so that they can do a good job for their constiuants and not fuck up their kids' lives. If it was clear that Todd Palin was being Mr. Mom and taking care of the kids, I doubt this would be an issue at all. But that's almost the opposite of the truth.

(Also, there is no honest way to compare Palin and Michelle Obama. Palin is the politician, Obama is the politician's spouse.)
posted by gjc at 2:20 PM on July 5

Just yell louder and reality will go away, I promise.

You would know best.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:24 PM on July 5

vaguely related anecdote: i won tickets the other week to see some young, up & coming american comedian - apparently, big enough to appear on some of those comedy newsy talk shows, like conan o'brien or letterman or something.

anyway, he's going through his routine, and at one point he was "then i had to get on the phone to the censorship board woman, and man, was she a *C---*!!!"

he threw in a pregnant pause, expecting some kind of "OMG, did he just say that?!??" response, but we were all sitting there going, "yeh, get on with your story...what c---ishness did this c---ing c--- get up to?"

i'd like to thank metafilter for the added cross-cultural nuance that made his fallen-flat line so very enriched for me.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:34 PM on July 5 [4 favorites has favorites]

Ambrosia Voyeur said: "Any of my beloved Mefi sisters care to help me understand how to NOT foster gendered resentment of Palin, who, as a conniving, anti-feminist, power-hungry, fact-fucking culture warrior, does make me want to shun her _as_ a woman?

I feel like there is and has been better discourse within the black community regarding, pardon how white I sound here, "representing," as something a group member can do so poorly as to disparage the group at large, which of course is only a risk because of endemic disempowerment in the first place..."

Yes, but even thought leaders in the African-American community have said that this is a risky endeavor. The concept of "representing" holds forth, then, that there is a set of ideals, accepted community-wide, about what it means to be a "good" black person or a "bad" black person -- you're either Sidney Poitier or a thug, and there is no room in between for shades of (ahem) gray.

By the same reasoning, to say that Sarah Palin should be denigrated because she represents all women so poorly and sets us all back as a sisterhood (not that I think that's what you're saying here, AV... but just on the idea of "how do we translate the AA 'represent' idea into a feminism discussion"), polarizes equally. It eliminates the spectrum of myriad manifestations of women making choices and living their values in whatever way they see fit.

And I hate to say it, but if it were a man that you had attributed with the characteristics of being power-hungry and conniving, would it even be seen as negative? I don't know that Palin can be called anti-feminism at all... in fact, she climbed her way to a major elected office on the back of very little experience and education, simply by playing the same back-room old-boys political games that male politicians have been using to get ahead for centuries.

And when they are hoist on their petards and revealed to be lying, incompetent blowhards, we tsk-tsk... but do we say, "Too bad, he's such a crappy representative of men everywhere, makes them all look bad"? We don't. When it's a man behaving with such reckless disregard for character and decency, we hate on the game, not the player.

Sarah Palin is not that bright, but she's extremely clever and she's scary ambitious. She's a narcissist -- but so what, many male leaders are also (hello, Donald Trump! and he's not the only one... lots of Fortune 100 CEOs have the same NPD qualities that we are all painting Palin with).

I don't like Palin because I abhor her culture gamesmanship, her questionable ethics and her politics. But I abhor the same in Rush Limbaugh. It's not less or more abhorrent behavior because of gender, to my thinking.

I don't know if that helps at all, AV -- I just wanted to address the racial query and then it sort of veered off onto tangent.
posted by pineapple at 2:49 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

Attacking Palin with gendered terms like "bitch" means you're adding being a woman to the pile of things you think it's okay to attack her about.

.....Wait. How is that so?

Does calling a man a "dick" mean that we equate his being a MAN with one of the things we think it's okay to attack him about? Or are we just sort of using the gender-specific version of "idiot", the same way we can refer to a "mare" or "stallion" instead of just calling 'em all "horses"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:57 PM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

And I hate to say it, but if it were a man that you had attributed with the characteristics of being power-hungry and conniving, would it even be seen as negative?

Why yes, everyone loved Bernie Madoff.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:06 PM on July 5

Cute, BB, but far afield. I'm saying, if Sarah Palin were Steve Palin, would his same actions still be seen so negatively -- would we be saying what a terrible father he is, how he is selling out his people (presumably, white men?). And so on.

Sarah Palin : Bernie Madoff :: Rush Limbaugh : Leona Helmsley.
posted by pineapple at 3:09 PM on July 5

if Sarah Palin were Steve Palin, would his same actions still be seen so negatively

If Sarah Palin was Steve Palin, with the same education and professional background, you wouldn't have ever heard of him.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:14 PM on July 5 [17 favorites has favorites]

Nice use of the ol' shifting goalposts, pineapple.
posted by fleacircus at 3:15 PM on July 5

Space Coyote: No, if he'd made the same lipstick/pitbull line, we would have heard of him.
posted by fleacircus at 3:19 PM on July 5

If Sarah Palin was Steve Palin, with the same education and professional background, you wouldn't have ever heard of him.

Well, if his name was Steve Palin but he got into Yale as a legacy, then he'd essentially be George W. Bush.
posted by scody at 3:21 PM on July 5 [4 favorites has favorites]

Michelle Obama talking abut fashion and pop stars

Actually it's her in her official capacity as First Lady encouraging people to volunteer in their local communities. A call to action that I'm sure is helped to no end by her carefully cultivated "mom-in-chief" persona. This is very consistent with the way the administration has clearly delineated her public role.

If you do a google news search for Michelle Obama, you get a pretty mixed bag, from stories about her glamour and celebrity, to service-related issues, and her attempts to poison people with food grown in the White House garden. All pretty much within the standard First Lady wheelhouse.

Michelle Obama is perhaps the most traditional First Lady we've had in a long time. Despite constant colloquial usage to the contrary, "traditional" does not mean the same thing as "conservative".

I think there is limited validity to comparing Palin and Obama. They have both crafted public personas in the public eye toward political goals. The difference is that Michelle Obama has crafted a persona specifically relevant to traditional notions of the Job she was up for. Sarah Palin has not.

Truth be told, if Palin's legacy was merely challenging the perception of Women's roles in politics and power as related to being a wife and mother, I'd applaud her. But that won't be her legacy because she tries to have it both ways. Since she brought up the sports metaphor, here's one I'd counter with...

ackie Robinson didn't get to quit because the other team called him names. Playing well is what exposed the ignorance of those who would have denied his opportunity. If he refused to come out of the dugout until they quit spitting at him, he'd have never played a single inning.
posted by billyfleetwood at 3:21 PM on July 5 [3 favorites has favorites]

fleacircus said: "Nice use of the ol' shifting goalposts, pineapple."

Care to elaborate to what you're referring?
posted by pineapple at 3:23 PM on July 5

obviously I meant "Jackie Robinson"

His younger brother Ackie Robinson atempted to integrate the sport of Polo and failed due to his small stature and hatred of cucumber sandwiches.
posted by billyfleetwood at 3:29 PM on July 5

Cute, BB, but far afield. I'm saying, if Sarah Palin were Steve Palin, would his same actions still be seen so negatively -- would we be saying what a terrible father he is, how he is selling out his people (presumably, white men?). And so on.

Ok, but that's not what you originally wrote:

And I hate to say it, but if it were a man that you had attributed with the characteristics of being power-hungry and conniving, would it even be seen as negative?

posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:35 PM on July 5

Sorry, then. I should have clarified. I meant that Sarah Palin's conniving power-hungry actions only seem, to me, to be called out as negative because she's female. I did not mean that we must laud any man who is power-hungry and conniving.

Bernie Madoff is power-hungry and conniving, for example, but he's also a convicted criminal who swindled billions of dollars out of citizens, and I think it's disingenuous to sweep Sarah Palin into that same category.
posted by pineapple at 3:39 PM on July 5

I meant that Sarah Palin's conniving power-hungry actions only seem, to me, to be called out as negative because she's female.

No they're called out because she's crazy and delusional. Dick Cheney's is called out for similar reasons.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:57 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

I meant that Sarah Palin's conniving power-hungry actions only seem, to me, to be called out as negative because she's female.

And Dick Cheney's power-hungry actions weren't? And Mark Sanford's clinging to Governorship hasn't? And no one has said bad things about Stephen Harper? And when cops have tasered citizens, no one calls them power-hungry bastards?

You are seeing what you want to see.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:01 PM on July 5

Okay, sorry, AGAIN, but I thought I was pretty clearly referring to the terms "conniving" and "power-hungry" vis-a-vis Ambrosia Voyeur's comment upthread that she sees those as qualities that make Sarah Palin anti-feminist and a traitor to the cause.

In fact, I even specifically addressed AV with the thought. So, sorry that was confusing.
posted by pineapple at 4:02 PM on July 5

No they're called out because she's crazy and delusional. Dick Cheney's is called out for similar reasons.

To be fair, Dick really is his name.
posted by Sailormom at 4:07 PM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

I even specifically addressed AV with the thought.

Yeah, I was going to do that, but then realized I'm not a beloved Mefi sister and moved along.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:08 PM on July 5

To be fair, Dick really is his name.

I thought that was his title!
posted by Sys Rq at 4:12 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

> Yeah, I was going to do that, but then realized I'm not a beloved Mefi sister and moved along.

Take that up with Ambrosia Voyeur. My point was only to disagree with her suggestion that "representing" is legitimate in the AA cultural realm; and, therefore ought be considered in the femino-political realm too, particularly re Sarah Palin.

> You are seeing what you want to see.

Seriously, y'all are kneejerking here.

AV said "Any of my beloved Mefi sisters care to help me understand how to NOT foster gendered resentment of Palin, who, as a conniving, anti-feminist, power-hungry, fact-fucking culture warrior, does make me want to shun her _as_ a woman?"

I replied, TO AV, "if it were a man that you had attributed with the characteristics of being power-hungry and conniving, would it even be seen as negative? I don't know that Palin can be called anti-feminism at all... in fact, she climbed her way to a major elected office on the back of very little experience and education, simply by playing the same back-room old-boys political games that male politicians have been using to get ahead for centuries."

Following which Brandon Blatcher compares Palin to Madoff. What? There are plenty of conniving power-hungry males out there who aren't also convicted felons, unless you were simply looking for the quick joke -- or missed my point completely, for which I then apologize for not having it chiseled it out in marble.

And then fff compares Palin to cops who use tasers on citizens?

If we can't veer even slightly off the PALIN IS A NUTJOB AND WILL BE THE DEATH OF US ALL agenda, for a sidebar look at the notion that Palin's actions could have cultural impact broader than merely U.S. two-party politics... without people alluding that I am a deluded Palin apologist (which is fairly silly), then I posit it just might be time for some of you to consider a catnap.
posted by pineapple at 4:19 PM on July 5

Dick Cheney before he dicks you!
posted by ericb at 4:24 PM on July 5

Following which Brandon Blatcher compares Palin to Madoff. What? There are plenty of conniving power-hungry males out there who aren't also convicted felons, unless you were simply looking for the quick joke

He was a conniving power-hungry male recently mentioned in Metafilter and MetaTalk.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:26 PM on July 5

You said "If it were a man that you had attributed with the characteristics of being power-hungry and conniving, would it even be seen as negative?"

I'm saying, "Hell, yes. Frequently."
posted by five fresh fish at 4:28 PM on July 5

Pineapple, I believe I get your point: AV was hatin' on Plalin because she felt Palin wasn't living up being a woman based on several negative qualities. Your response was , paraphrasing "if those qualities were in man, would you be hating them for being a man because of those qualities?" Thinking about it a bit, that's a totally legitimate answer if it was said in private place, but Metafilter isn't private, it's oh so public, so saying what you said comes off vastly differently to a wider, man filled audience.

I don't think either side is wrong, but there's two (at least) different meanings going on here, one as woman to woman, the other as woman to the world.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:37 PM on July 5

Don't worry, fleacircus, premature posting happens to lots of people.

I'm no gatekeeper of feminism, nor ever have painted myself as such to anyone. I have never said word one about the present "bitch = gender slur" -- or any other, to my recall.

I am not going to repeat myself at great length about what disturbs me about Sarah Palin. Feel free to read my posting history on the topic of her if you aren't sure. I don't give a whit about her gender. Her incompetence and problematic relationship with the truth are what puts me off.

I appreciate that you might have axes you really want to grind, but don't take it up with me, because I don't have a dog in your hunt.
posted by pineapple at 4:38 PM on July 5

the "rear end in a top hat" stuff on Something Awful?

I can only imagine it's verbose way of saying Asshat, a traditional insult in them thar territories.
posted by Sparx at 4:38 PM on July 5

Some posters in this thread have turned it into some bizzaro world game of straw man Telephone Tag. One would think the blue is rife with calls for the anal rape of retarded children and that women lost their voting rights. SOMEBODY SAID BITCH!?! WHAT MISOGYNY!

How many times did anybody in any of the Blue threads actually called any woman a c*nt or a bitch.

I'll wait while you control F this shit. Oh. Hey. Look at that NOBODY used the "C" word in the original thread did they? As for bitch. 3 times. And one of those was referencing the term in THIS call out. and the other was contextual as in "like a little bitch."

Three times. And really only once in the direct derogatory sence.
In a thread that is over 900 comments long.

Okay. Now in this here call out how many times have these terms been used to dissect the supposed derogatory use of these terms? Go ahead. Count. I'll wait.

See the overwhelming disproportionality here. We bitch more about the use of the "C" word and the word bitch than we actually use the word bitch. It's god damned hysteria is what it is.

See what I did there?

And that's even if you accept the premise that word bitch or - every gendered pejorative- in every context IS sexist. I, most people, personally reject this premise. It's absurd. And if you accept it you better never say "motherfucker, dick, bastard, or son of a bitch", either. And since when are women some protected weaker class that can't be insulted? Especially despicable women like Sarah Palin. If one of you never complained in other threads years ago when I repeatedly said George W. Bush and Dick Cheney "ran like a little bitch" on 9/11 than STFU. You hypocrites.

I know I've got no business arguing that the US is still a deeply conservative society and the use "bitch" is unacceptable in my opinion on this website.

Certain words are just unacceptable on their face? Then please I welcome you to start a censorship campaign, Herr Goebbels. That would be bitch'n.
posted by tkchrist at 4:49 PM on July 5 [4 favorites has favorites]

SOMEBODY SAID BITCH!?! WHAT MISOGYNY!

"SKY IS FALLING! OH NOES!!1!!!"
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:50 PM on July 5

"SKY IS FALLING! OH NOES!!1!!!"

It's raining cats and female dogs!
posted by tkchrist at 4:54 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

Brandon Blatcher said: "Thinking about it a bit, that's a totally legitimate answer if it was said in private place, but Metafilter isn't private, it's oh so public, so saying what you said comes off vastly differently to a wider, man filled audience.

I don't think either side is wrong, but there's two (at least) different meanings going on here, one as woman to woman, the other as woman to the world."

I get what you're saying, and I appreciate that you took the time to parse the dialogue of earlier.

I still think there has been a lot of kneejerk reaction -- from male posters -- to my suggestion that what AV might be recoiling at are qualities that, for the most part, simply don't rub people wrong when they are presented by men. That is not an unreasonable notion to consider, in the abstract, yet you'd think I just said instead that I believe Sarah Palin is the one way, truth and light for the shining glorious future of These United States. That's a pretty big leap to make.

Using overly dramatic examples like Madoff and police brutality to prove that point seems intellectually dishonest (or favorite bait) to me. Donald Trump is both a narcissist... and an unqualified corporate success story. Karl Rove is conniving... and he managed to get the Kappa Sig social chair elected president not once but twice. The Kennedy family is roundly considered to be both the most successful political dynasty in the history of our country and unremittingly power-hungry. There are successful people out there that have literally run the world thanks to some of the exact qualities that AV named as being "anti-feminist" in Sarah Palin, and I thought it was worth examining. Maybe another time.

And, if I'm brutally honest, the notion chaps me that I ought to consider saying things more carefully because there are mens in the audience. My experience with most of the menfolk at MetaFilter is that they are thoughtful, interesting, reasonable people. I don't see why I have to sugarcoat or try not to offend their delicate sensibilities. If it was a legitimate answer when said directly to one female poster, it should be a legitimate answer no matter who reads it.
posted by pineapple at 4:57 PM on July 5 [6 favorites has favorites]

Any of my beloved Mefi sisters care to help me understand how to NOT foster gendered resentment of Palin, who, as a conniving, anti-feminist, power-hungry, fact-fucking culture warrior, does make me want to shun her _as_ a woman?

Yes. Remind yourself that other people hating on Palin _as_ a woman hate her for different reasons and in this 2-D world of text-on-screen it may be unclear which camp you fall into and it's as likely to be interpreted incorrectly as it is to be interpreted correctly. I think this is true for a lot of topics in which e have people who study the topic academically and people who don't, trying to talk the same language about something.

Certain words are just unacceptable on their face? Then please I welcome you to start a censorship campaign, Herr Goebbels. That would be bitch'n.

Honestly, what are you trying to accomplish here?
posted by jessamyn at 5:06 PM on July 5

I still think there has been a lot of kneejerk reaction -- from male posters -- to my suggestion that what AV might be recoiling at are qualities that, for the most part, simply don't rub people wrong when they are presented by men.

Any examples of such men presenting such traits, and being received positively, would be much appreciated.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:06 PM on July 5

Not only that the word "Hate" is thrown around a great deal. I don't think it means what you think it means.

I think Sarah Palin is vapid, vindictive, ignorant, moron. As do most of the people who have posted in these thread. I mean people like stumble over theme selves to at least tell us how awful they think she is, right? God forbid you come out here defending Sarah Palin. Nope 99% of the people her went on about what a terrible person she is. Even the person who started this idiotic call-out went out of thier way to tell us how much they are "not a fan" of Sarah Palin.

My god. WE ARE FILLED WITH SEETHING HATE. Metafilter is seething cauldron of hate.

Or maybe, juuuust maybe it's about time people stopped being such drama queens and learn to appreciate what hate actually is. I encourage you to read this thread for some perspective.

Anger surprise and disgust. Not the same as hate. Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe.

It might disappoint perhaps even anger some of you to know this, but after I hit the send button and walk away from my computer to go do things with real actual people I forget Metafilter even exists. You all just return to wisps of undifferentiated virtual nothingness. I neither conspire to enslave women or compose Anti-Palin Manifestos on my bedroom wall in blood. The pissy little sarcastic personae I adopt here is nearly purely virtual and almost completely a mannerism of style.

Yeah. Perspective is what some of you guys seem to require.
posted by tkchrist at 5:12 PM on July 5

Honestly, what are you trying to accomplish here?

Is that rhetorical? Or do you really want to know.
posted by tkchrist at 5:13 PM on July 5

I hit the send button and walk away from my computer to go do things with real actual people I forget Metafilter even exists. You all just return to wisps of undifferentiated virtual nothingness.

*Sends consolation bouquets to everyone who lists tkchrist as a Contact*
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:20 PM on July 5

And, if I'm brutally honest, the notion chaps me that I ought to consider saying things more carefully because there are mens in the audience. My experience with most of the menfolk at MetaFilter is that they are thoughtful, interesting, reasonable people. I don't see why I have to sugarcoat or try not to offend their delicate sensibilities. If it was a legitimate answer when said directly to one female poster, it should be a legitimate answer no matter who reads it.

I don't see why. You can think you're speaking to AV all you want, but if you're posting on the main site, you're not and it's possible for another to misunderstood and misconstrue whatever you mean.

I could call Sarah Palin a "crazy ass bitch" but doing it just in the company of close friends who know me and know that's I don't assign that insult to many women is vastly different from saying on stage in front of those friends, co-workers, casual friends and strangers. The latter would be much less forgiving of that statement because they don't have the relationship with me to understand it's not a general view point but rather an extremely isolated incident used to highlight how awful she really is.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:20 PM on July 5

How about we don't worry about what color or gender people are? I think we are all finally grown-up enough to call an asshole and asshole, no matter what color it is or what hangs down in front of it.
posted by gjc at 5:22 PM on July 5

To be fair, Dick really is his name.

I thought that was his title!

It's the Norwegian pronunciation of "Darth," actually. Little known fact.
posted by tkchrist at 5:23 PM on July 5

You all just return to wisps of undifferentiated virtual nothingness.

No wonder my socks keep falling down.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:27 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

The pissy little sarcastic personae I adopt here is nearly purely virtual and almost completely a mannerism of style

And how proud you are of it. Whether your life is sufficiently rich outside of Metafilter is really no one's concern, but if you're not an ass out there, why bother to be one here?
posted by donnagirl at 5:29 PM on July 5 [3 favorites has favorites]

I could call Sarah Palin a "crazy ass bitch" but doing it just in the company of close friends who know me and know that's I don't assign that insult to many women is vastly different from saying on stage in front of those friends, co-workers, casual friends and strangers. The latter would be much less forgiving of that statement because they don't have the relationship with me to understand it's not a general view point but rather an extremely isolated incident used to highlight how awful she really is.

Okay. I get the "farting in church" kind of analogy. It's not polite. So saying she's a crazy ass bitch, if you buy into the context that calling a woman a bitch is sexist, means you are still sexist. No matter where you fart— it still stinks, right? So you are a sexist. Or at least using sexist language.

But. Again people HERE were not using their brains to apply either context, proportionality, or intent to the extremely narrow and limited use of the slurs in that thread at all. I means seriously. It was a stretch. And the OP for this call out was purely partisan.
posted by tkchrist at 5:33 PM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

Sys Rq said: "Any examples of such men presenting such traits, and being received positively, would be much appreciated."

pineapple said, just 9 short minutes prior: "Donald Trump is both a narcissist... and an unqualified corporate success story. Karl Rove is conniving... and he managed to get the Kappa Sig social chair elected president not once but twice. The Kennedy family is roundly considered to be both the most successful political dynasty in the history of our country and unremittingly power-hungry. There are successful people out there that have literally run the world thanks to some of the exact qualities that AV named as being "anti-feminist" in Sarah Palin, and I thought it was worth examining. Maybe another time."

Want more?

Nicolas Sarkozy is considered by most to be abrasive and combative. BusinessWeek called Warren Buffett a "driven, even monomaniacal corporate empire-builder." Vladimir Putin is a controlling perfectionist. Some consider him schizophrenic in his tendency to swing hot and cold. Steve Jobs is another, like Trump, who is widely rumored to be a high-functioning clinical narcissist.

These are some of the most powerful men in business and government in the world. Their ambitious, dictatorial, selfish ways have landed them at the peak of success in their particular fields.

Do you need me to go on, or can you process my point, by now?

BB said: "You can think you're speaking to AV all you want, but if you're posting on the main site, you're not and it's possible for another to misunderstood and misconstrue whatever you mean."

Sure. But when you're posting on the same main site and you refuse to acknowledge that my comment was in reply to her explicit question, using her exact words, I'm not sure the problem is with me.

People can misconstrue whatever they like, but they don't also receive some Mod-given right to appear reasonable and thoughtful while doing it -- especially in a case where I've tried multiple times to illustrate and clarify the point I was aiming for. Again, you said it yourself -- my answer was totally legitimate, except for how a bunch of other people on a man-filled site might interpret it. That's about them, not me.

Sys Rq is an example. He just asked me for examples of men who have been received positively, after displaying traits like being power-hungry.

Really? That's what we've devolved to on this topic? That, in order to keep fighting me on the notion that Sarah Palin has some qualities that people are only rejecting as anti-feminist because she's female, I am being asked to demonstrate that there are men out there who have succeeded thanks to ambition?

It's like I've gone back in time. Hand me a suffragette sash, gals! We're starting from scratch!
posted by pineapple at 5:38 PM on July 5

Oh don't lean on me man, cause you can't afford the ticket
Back from Suffragette City!
posted by scody at 5:49 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

My god. WE ARE FILLED WITH SEETHING HATE. Metafilter is seething cauldron of hate.

An old friend of mine used to say something along the lines of, "If you hate someone, then deal with it and fucking kill him (or her). And if murder sounds too extreme, then imagine how everybody feels about your lazy choice of words."

Needless to say, the guy was annoying as hell ... but he did have a point. Hate is an extreme and dangerous word, particularly when attached to a particular human being (or group thereof). On the other hand, hating an idea (or a product, or a movie, or even a particular human being's public persona) is another thing altogether.

I hate the deep pigfucking ignorance that Sara Palin stands for. Fact is, it horrifies me on the level that someone like Pol Pot horrifies me. But as for Ms Palin herself, until I actually meet her and find her to be as detestable in person as her public image, then I'll always be careful how I use the "H" word.
posted by philip-random at 5:50 PM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

my answer was totally legitimate, except for how a bunch of other people on a man-filled site might interpret it. That's about them, not me.

No, I'd say it's about them and you. It's called public discourse and it quickly falls apart if we can't find a way to claim some responsibility for the waves we create.
posted by philip-random at 5:56 PM on July 5

And how proud you are of it.

Proud. Not really. I mean I'm flattered so many people like my stories and give me so much positive feed back. I've made some real world friends.

But when these virtual dust-ups occur I simply can't take them remotely seriously. They are like some sort of loop that is spit out by some programmed Offend-bot some where. The same shit over and over and over.

It's more interesting to me that out of all I said you only take-away was the very last line. Which was a superfluous flippant closer that I would not take too seriously if I were you.
posted by tkchrist at 5:56 PM on July 5

People can misconstrue whatever they like, but they don't also receive some Mod-given right to appear reasonable and thoughtful while doing it -- especially in a case where I've tried multiple times to illustrate and clarify the point I was aiming for. Again, you said it yourself -- my answer was totally legitimate, except for how a bunch of other people on a man-filled site might interpret it. That's about them, not me.

No one said they had Mod-given right about anything.

Fine, say what you like, audience be damned. I just don't want to hear any bitching about someone using the word cunt or bitch, because they meant it one way and others take it a different way.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:57 PM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

Yeah, um, by "received positively," I didn't mean, "successful despite their faults," but rather, "not internationally regarded as notoriously batshit superdouches." Trump, Sarkozy, and Putin are terrible examples.

Sys Rq is an example. He just asked me for examples of men who have been received positively, after displaying traits like being power-hungry.

Because you have been presenting that notion as your big gotcha, and it's bullshit.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:02 PM on July 5

Jessamyn, by my own reckoning, that's advice I'm already heeding. I don't think I need to dial down my expressions of Palin hate because I don't think I have any, though I guess that too could be perceived otherwise (see "cow, stupid.") and I'll check my own history. I don't think swallowing snark or being reverent are steps I'm willing to take just to distance myself from proper haters. I meant to seek advice about the way we women might want to treat such gendered media constructions, IRL, as they form our sense of the world, because she's not a real person to any of us, to my way of thinking. So yeah, I am being opaquely academic in my consideration, and probably a total moonbat. Probably asking an unanswerable question. I'll save my tilting at giants for Mecha Palin. I know Zombie Valerie Solanas will be on my team.

I am so into talking or even arguing about this, it's something I'm excited to grapple with, but I'm totally on vacation seeing cool stuff right now.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:10 PM on July 5

No matter where you fart— it still stinks, right?

Eh, your SO can fart and it's not a big deal, because you know there's more there than farts. Farting in front of strangers, co-workers, in church, on that first date..not so acceptable. Assumption are made if you do.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:24 PM on July 5

Brandon Blatcher said: "I just don't want to hear any bitching about someone using the word cunt or bitch, because they meant it one way and others take it a different way."

I've never stepped into that ring, nor do I think that that is analogous to what happened here between you, me, AV and the peanut gallery.

philip-random said: "No, I'd say it's about them and you. It's called public discourse and it quickly falls apart if we can't find a way to claim some responsibility for the waves we create."

Which is why I apologized twice, tried in good faith to clarify my exchange with AV... and subsequently was told that I was delusional and also that, despite my point being legitimate, should try harder to help the men on this site understand my words better. So, I'm all about responsibility, philip-random, but I'm also about being met halfway.

Sys Rq said: "Yeah, um, by "received positively," I didn't mean, "successful despite their faults," but rather, "not internationally regarded as notoriously batshit superdouches."

Then, maybe that's what you should have said in the first place, instead of trying to be cutesy and pretend you missed the point.

A handful of the traits that are considered dominant characteristics of the most successful male world leaders, were called anti-feminist in Sarah Palin. I've made that point here sufficiently; I'm not tilting at your windmills any further.

And you're kidding yourself with that "successful despite their faults" bit. The alpha concept has been proven repeatedly both biologically and sociologically. Have a quick pass at hegemonic masculinity if you'd like to see it framed in a way that's more germane to this conversation.

By the way, I put a lot of stock in what I called the Rule of Um-Yeah: Whenever I see someone post anything on the internet that starts with, "Um, yeah," or "Yeah, um," whatever follows is pretty much 100% guaranteed to be self-righteous twaddle. Thanks for lending more data to that point.
posted by pineapple at 6:29 PM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

By the way, I put a lot of stock in what I called the Rule of Um-Yeah: Whenever I see someone post anything on the internet that starts with, "Um, yeah," or "Yeah, um," whatever follows is pretty much 100% guaranteed to be self-righteous twaddle. Thanks for lending more data to that point.

Yeah, um, thank yourself.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:39 PM on July 5

And the OP for this call out was purely partisan.

Um. Wrong. Notice I never said "Sarah Palin is a brilliant genius and wonderful politician whom I idolize, HOW DARE YOU TALK ABOUT HER LIKE THAT?!"

In fact, I even mentioned not particularly liking Palin. What I actually said was more like "Comments like the ones I linked to are vile and MetaFilter should be above that kind of stuff." If comments like that were made about, say, Hillary Clinton--and nobody called people out on it and they weren't deleted--then I'd be doing the same thing.
posted by Autarky at 6:46 PM on July 5

A handful of the traits that are considered dominant characteristics of the most successful male world leaders, were called anti-feminist in Sarah Palin. I've made that point here sufficiently; I'm not tilting at your windmills any further.

No, sorry. You haven't. Also, you totally misread Don Quixote.

And you're kidding yourself with that "successful despite their faults" bit. The alpha concept has been proven repeatedly both biologically and sociologically. Have a quick pass at hegemonic masculinity if you'd like to see it framed in a way that's more germane to this conversation.

Yeah. Thing is, Sarah Palin gets the same reaction, for exactly the same reasons, as the male examples you hold up as proof of a sexist double-standard.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:47 PM on July 5

And you're kidding yourself with that "successful despite their faults" bit. The alpha concept has been proven repeatedly both biologically and sociologically. Have a quick pass at hegemonic masculinity if you'd like to see it framed in a way that's more germane to this conversation.

Actually, you...don't have to get that far into the linkage you provided to see that this theory has come under some fire. I'm just sayin' here.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:50 PM on July 5

kittens for breakfast i said: "Actually, you...don't have to get that far into the linkage you provided to see that this theory has come under some fire. I'm just sayin' here."

Sure, it can come under fire; it doesn't need to be iron-clad to refute twaddle, it just needs to be legitimate.

But the idea that people like Nicolas Sarkozy, Steve Jobs, and Vladimir Putin are successful in spite of their power-grabbing personality traits is just naively ridiculous, and intellectually dishonest in this conversation.
posted by pineapple at 7:01 PM on July 5

Is that rhetorical? Or do you really want to know.

It's an honest question. You make my job difficult. Other people on the site seem to enjoy a lot of your comments, so I try to keep my criticism in check because it may be something specific to me-personally and not me-as-mod. That said, I feel that you come at this from a strong "hey hey it's just a website" perspective which means it's okay when you're making jokes or ranty performance art comments but when someone says they don't like that sort of thing, you hide out in "I don't know why you all take these things so seriously." instead of discussing the topic honestly. We then have big MeTa threads that seem to become additional stages for the tkchrist show. I personally think you're probably pretty interesting IRL and yet I have a hard time understanding why you do this [what I see as] shitting-on-the-site thing.

So I guess you and I come at this site from differing perspectives and I'm not sure why you have this over the top edgy attention-getting persona (assuming it's some facet of the whole person who is you exaggerated for effect) when by your own admission you're sort of just passing through here. So I guess I was wondering what, in your ideal world, you want to get?
posted by jessamyn at 7:02 PM on July 5 [4 favorites has favorites]

The pissy little sarcastic personae I adopt here is nearly purely virtual and almost completely a mannerism of style.

and yet, that's what you choose to do here - and you're going to sit there and tell us that choice means absolutely nothing as to what kind of person you are or what kind of gratification you get from how you act

as a person who is often a pissy little sarcastic person himself, i say bullshit
posted by pyramid termite at 7:20 PM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

But the idea that people like Nicolas Sarkozy, Steve Jobs, and Vladimir Putin are successful in spite of their power-grabbing personality traits is just naively ridiculous, and intellectually dishonest in this conversation.

Indeed. Thankfully, no one is doing that.

I still think there has been a lot of kneejerk reaction -- from male posters -- to my suggestion that what AV might be recoiling at are qualities that, for the most part, simply don't rub people wrong when they are presented by men.

So, again, where is this "most part" that isn't put off by Trump, Sarkozy, and Putin? How is that group not equivalent to the people who aren't put off by Palin?
posted by Sys Rq at 7:31 PM on July 5

Don't worry, fleacircus, premature posting happens to lots of people.

Actually it was a "blergh, who cares.. I wonder what other people have posted while I was afk, let's click preview--argh!"

I'd like to thank you for appreciating the spirit of the "nevermind" in my next comment, but I guess I can't. :-/

I appreciate that you might have axes you really want to grind, but don't take it up with me, because I don't have a dog in your hunt.

Usually when I hunt with my axes I don't bring along the dogs. I like to be alone in the woods when, bloody from the kill, I strip naked and scream victory at the top of my lungs.
posted by fleacircus at 7:33 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

If this were an argument about Hillary Clinton, I think the point about "male" behavior being used against a female pol would be much more valid. Hillary plays by the same rules of ruthless politics as everyone else, and when she's called on it in a gendered way it is a shining example of the double standards that feminism looks to erase.

But here's the difference. Gender-based double standards be damned, Obama decides to get another term in the Senate under his belt, and We have our first Female President right now. The whole thing about double standards is that they're easily proven wrong with a little bit of success.

Sarah Palin does not fall into this category. Her form of politics is indicative of many the reasons people swore for years that women shouldn't enter the political arena. She uses her role as a wife and mother as a crutch, She's unserious, erratic, intellectually deficient, and as she's just proven, unwilling to stick it out when the going gets tough. In that light, her deficiencies are markedly anti-feminist.

Politics is pretty much the art of being power hungry and conniving while convincing others that you're sincere and have their best interests in mind. All politicians, male or female, will be called out for the former when they are really bad at the latter.
posted by billyfleetwood at 7:41 PM on July 5 [6 favorites has favorites]

If comments like that were made about, say, Hillary Clinton--and nobody called people out on it and they weren't deleted--then I'd be doing the same thing.

*looks up comment history again*

But yet, you never did. In fact, while you quite frequently take offense at what others here say about public figures and political parties, you only ever speak up about it when it's a conservative's ox being gored.

Why is that, Leon?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:50 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

Sarah Palin does not fall into this category. Her form of politics is indicative of many the reasons people swore for years that women shouldn't enter the political arena. She uses her role as a wife and mother as a crutch, She's unserious, erratic, intellectually deficient, and as she's just proven, unwilling to stick it out when the going gets tough. In that light, her deficiencies are markedly anti-feminist.

I largely agree with this. And it's not really less convincing or forceful than if you had called her a crazy bitch. I suppose comments like this won't get as many favorites, but they're far more interesting and would result in a discussion that--I think--would be far more interesting and rewarding than a somewhat bigoted hate fest.
posted by Autarky at 7:53 PM on July 5

But yet, you never did. In fact, while you quite frequently take offense at what others here say about public figures and political parties, you only ever speak up about it when it's a conservative's ox being gored.

Why is that, Leon?

I don't mind Republicans getting skewered, especially when they richly deserve it. I tend to get roused enough to jump in the fray when it's just egregiously tasteless, as I thought it was in this case.
posted by Autarky at 7:57 PM on July 5

politics
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:10 PM on July 5

Why is that, Leon?

I don't mind Republicans getting skewered [...]

CULTURAL REFERENCE FAIL.

posted by elfgirl at 8:13 PM on July 5

And it's not really less convincing or forceful than if you had called her a crazy bitch.

Well now you bring up an interesting point. On the way to that more reasoned analysis, the word bitch has come out of my mouth. Most notably (and repeatedly) during her address to the Republican convention. This however was a much milder outburst than some of the things that came out of my mouth during Giuliani's sneering diatribe at said convention.

I pretty much come from the position that yes, some words aren't very nice, but when people aren't being very nice, it's good to have not-nice words to call them.
posted by billyfleetwood at 8:21 PM on July 5

Man, if this was your jumping into the fray, I'd hate to see your baseless shit-stirring.
posted by fleacircus at 8:28 PM on July 5

CULTURAL REFERENCE FAIL.

I had to look it up, sue me. Funny thing is, I watched it about two weeks ago.
posted by Autarky at 8:29 PM on July 5

In fact, I even mentioned not particularly liking Palin.

Heh. The way you sound here about how you feel towards Palin is precisely how I would describe my feelings with regards to, say, red licorice. Or canned green beans.

However, with regards to Sarah Palin, "not particularly liking" that public person strikes me as being respectively along the lines of "not particularly liking" C. botulinum.
posted by humannaire at 9:02 PM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

Autarky has a point. No epithet beyond "airhead" is required.
posted by telstar at 9:09 PM on July 5

To address what I think is the only point of contention I have with pineapple's response to my question, I don't think Sarah Palin's reputation as a people-user is what makes her anti-feminist. Her politics do. And I am well aware that men are not given nicknames like "barracuda," and that her representation has been in that way and others, sexist as well as simply highly gendered. She's cartoonish, in fact. A demented, nightmarish cartoon of a woman about who I find no redeeming information. Because I never met her. She's abstracted, constructed, inscrutable, unbefuckinglievable, Are there men like that? Oh, I bet. Double down. Did I read all about them? Nope. Confirmation bias? Yeah. Still, how not to despise her all the more for demanding my attention as a vanguard and earning my ridicule as a fucker, both within the bounds of feminist study?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:16 PM on July 5

Why is that, Leon?

Leon, play her/him off.
posted by ericb at 9:23 PM on July 5

Also what billy said.

Tehachapi is a surprisingly delightful place to explore.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:23 PM on July 5

Autarky has a point. No epithet beyond "airhead" is required.

I beg to differ. In Palin's case dumbshit, ignormaus, hypocrite, dumbass, light-weight, opportunist, pretender and other epithets do indeed apply. No gender identity required. When I see stupid, I know stupid.
posted by ericb at 9:27 PM on July 5

*ignoramus*
posted by ericb at 9:28 PM on July 5

I pretty much come from the position that yes, some words aren't very nice, but when people aren't being very nice, it's good to have not-nice words to call them.

Yes. "Airhead" does not come anywhere near close to describing the bile that arises when one watches Palin incites dumbfucks — sorry, "low information voters" — to kill (circa 50s mark).

Sarah Palin and her cohort of batshitinsane ideologues have hurt Alaska and threaten America's stability. "Bitch" doesn't come close to describing the malicious, unscrupulous, spiteful nature of Palin.

But as shorthand, it's close enough.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:30 PM on July 5

...to kill (circa 50s mark).

Palin Rally: "Terrorist!" "Kill Him!".

Did she, or McCain ever disavow such behavior and rhetoric? No. Fuck him. Fuck her.
posted by ericb at 9:37 PM on July 5

See, why dumbass? The word doesn't strike horror in me, I just don't understand the perception of Palin is a complete nincompoop. A lightweight? I agree. Unprepared for politics on the national stage? Yes. Giving several painfully bad interviews on national television clearly means you're not at all ready to be VP, but I don't see that it indicates a total lack of intelligence.

Also, inciting them to kill? Don't be ridiculous. Saying that Obama "pals around with terrorists" is hardly charitable, but saying that's the equivalent of inciting violence or murder is absurd.
posted by Autarky at 9:46 PM on July 5

Ah, memories ...

Sarah Palin's RNC Convention Speech (Video and text).
posted by ericb at 9:47 PM on July 5

Dumb Ass!
posted by ericb at 9:50 PM on July 5

How about this?
posted by dead cousin ted at 10:03 PM on July 5

Saying that Obama "pals around with terrorists" is hardly charitable, but saying that's the equivalent of inciting violence or murder is absurd.

That sounds a lot like what Bill O'Reilly says about his role in Dr. Tiller's killing.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:04 PM on July 5 [4 favorites has favorites]

So I guess I was wondering what, in your ideal world, you want to get?

Honestly. I don't understand your question. And reading it again I'm not so sure you do either.

I am no more "attention getting" than most of the people in this thread right now. I doubt I'm in no more need of getting attention than most of the regulars. A lot less than many as far as I can tell. Do you want me to name names and pull examples? I don't think that's necessary. I don't have time to think over every nuance and I tend to type off the cuff very stream of consciousness. It's not always a deliberate style. But it is only a style. And it's only to be funny. To get laughs. That's it. And it works.

Other than what's in my profile I don't particularly feel it's necessary to justify or rationalize my presence here to you (or anybody else) any more or less than any other member should have to. Frankly I've never really thought about it all that much. I suppose it's an interesting intellectual conundrum.

As for "passing through" ... again what does that even mean? How permanent is a virtual community? And seriously let's use that term "community" pretty loosely alright. There are a lot smart interesting posters here. But everybody is passing through.

Look. Jess. I'm 45 years old and just wired to internalize this concept of a community of virtual people as well as many other people might be able to do. "People" are who I talk to face to face interactively in real time. Y'all are just words on a page. So all the cues we take in interactions in real life are not here. This place is interesting. But in terms of actual "relationships" it's not crucial to me because it will never feel real.

That said I don't go way out of my way to stir the shit. Nor to make members deliberately unhappy. Not as much as many posters sure tend to do. And I think you know that. So if you think of me as some kind of chronic shit-stirer I don't know what to say. There is long line ahead of me before you get to my number.

I'm sorry I some how make your job difficult. I really am. If that is the burr under your saddle, well— it's not intentional. And not knowing precisely what that means to make your job harder I kind of feel it's a bit of an exaggeration. I'm not being dismissive I don't know what I hath wrought - carpal tunnel? PTSD? . I just think there is a tendency to blow things out of proportion. This entire thread is a perfect example. Unless there were plethora of deleted comments I'm not aware of the Palin thread was NOT a problem. Okay. Look through it. Compared to other threads it was veritable love fest.

In response to your very first question hours ago: I'm sick to death of people here telling other people what words they can and can't use and not giving people the benefit of the doubt. I'm not abusive to people. I'm not cruel. So. I am through qualifying every single idle harmless statement until it's rendered inert to satisfy a tiny minority of noisy nellies.
posted by tkchrist at 10:20 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

Look. Jess. I'm 45 years old and just wired to internalize this concept of a community of virtual people as well as many other people might be able to do. "People" are who I talk to face to face interactively in real time. Y'all are just words on a page. So all the cues we take in interactions in real life are not here. This place is interesting. But in terms of actual "relationships" it's not crucial to me because it will never feel real.

Why do you make that choice?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:29 PM on July 5

Also, inciting them to kill? Don't be ridiculous. Saying that Obama "pals around with terrorists" is hardly charitable, but saying that's the equivalent of inciting violence or murder is absurd.

Sarah Palin's attacks on Barack Obama's patriotism provoked a spike in death threats against the future president, Secret Service agents revealed during the final weeks of the campaign.

The Republican vice presidential candidate attracted criticism for accusing Mr Obama of "palling around with terrorists", citing his association with the sixties radical William Ayers.

The attacks provoked a near lynch mob atmosphere at her rallies, with supporters yelling "terrorist" and "kill him" until the McCain campaign ordered her to tone down the rhetoric....

The Secret Service warned the Obama family in mid October that they had seen a dramatic increase in the number of threats against the Democratic candidate, coinciding with Mrs Palin's attacks...

Details of the spike in threats to Mr Obama come as a report last week by security and intelligence analysts Stratfor, warned that he is a high risk target for racist gunmen. It concluded: "Two plots to assassinate Obama were broken up during the campaign season, and several more remain under investigation. We would expect federal authorities to uncover many more plots to attack the president that have been hatched by white supremacist ideologues."

Autarky, it would appear that you are wrong.
posted by contessa at 10:29 PM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

contessa, thanks for that link -- I hadn't seen that report before. Terrifying. (Not that the ideologues responsible for ever inciting such threats and violence will ever take -- or be held -- responsible, of course.)
posted by scody at 10:34 PM on July 5

(oh, and I think your linked may have been borked... I think this should work.)
posted by scody at 10:36 PM on July 5

Ack, thanks scody!
posted by contessa at 10:37 PM on July 5

I don't see that it indicates a total lack of intelligence.

Yes. Sarah Palin is not a coma patient without any brain activity. She has some intelligence.

I think you are unfamiliar with hyperbole. Though you seem to be using it yourself.

She is no where near on par in terms of demonstrated intellegence with likes of Hillary Clinton, or Nancy Pelosi (or on the right Christine Todd Whitman, or Condi Rice).

Not even close. So you constantly conflating them is god damn irritating.

These women have advanced degrees from prestigious universities and have sought out the tutelage of some of the brightest minds in their given fields. They have reams of published materials they have authored. They have exposed them selves to intellectual criticism through out their careers and have been vetted constantly on a highest professional levels. In short they have played with the big dogs. Not just as a matter of experience but because they put in their chops because they demonstrated the brains to hand with the big dogs.

Sarah Palin, a beauty pageant contestant, went to five - FIVE- sub-par colleges graduating with a communications bachelor degree from a "christian" college that I'm not sure is even accredited. Sarah Palin wanted to be a news anchor. While she may have achieved something for herself, her political career is a populist fluke. She has never, not once, demonstrated any particular intellectual gift on par with a Hillary Clinton or a Madeline Albright. She has not published. She has not been vetted any level close.

Because she refused to demonstrate her "intellect" to any other venue than scripted appearances we are left with the scant examples of her mental acuity that she had Foreign Policy experience because of Alaska proximity to Russia and that she could not name a single supreme court case other than Roe v. Wade. That should be all you need to know. And it's all you can base what you know of her intelligence on.
posted by tkchrist at 10:40 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

Why do you make that choice?

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's NOT a choice. It's just deep down how it is. She asked for honesty. There it is. It may not be an immutable state. But it's how I really feel for now.
posted by tkchrist at 10:43 PM on July 5

Because she refused to demonstrate her "intellect" to any other venue than scripted appearances ...

tkchrist, you're just one of those elitist, arugula-loving, San Francisco espresso-sipping. faggot-loving liberals. What do you really know?
posted by ericb at 10:48 PM on July 5

~~San Francisco~~ Seattle espresso-sipping... (even worse!) ....
posted by ericb at 10:51 PM on July 5

The Iquitarod!: Sarah Palin's Latest Artic Sport.
posted by ericb at 10:52 PM on July 5

*Artic* [sic].
posted by ericb at 10:53 PM on July 5 [1 favorite has favorites]

tkchrist, you're just one of those elitist, arugula-loving, San Francisco espresso-sipping. faggot-loving liberals. What do you really know?

I know that arugula with walnuts, strawberries, and goat cheese is awesome.

I also know that Hillary Clinton wasn't rich but as a national merit scholar went to Wellesley and Yale law school. Was a congressional legal council was the first female law partner in a very prestigious law firm and was twice listed as one the countries most influential lawyers. And this was all before affirmative action. So. She did all that shit on her own.

I know that.

I know that Sarah Palin did some beauty pageants. And quit three of her four political jobs before accomplishing anything. And somehow some idiots says she is on par with the smartest women in our political establishment.

I know that.
posted by tkchrist at 11:00 PM on July 5 [2 favorites has favorites]

And so it begins.
posted by tkchrist at 11:03 PM on July 5

A lot of liberal commentators referred to Bush as a mass murderer, among other things, during his presidency. There were a good number of Bush death threats as well. Nobody ever tried to link the two, and rightfully so. That would be stupid. Hateful as they were, the overwhelming majority of Palin critics, Bush critics, Obama critics, and others never had any intention of inciting actual violence, and very, very few of them did. I'm dubious of the claim that more people started planning to attack Obama after Palin started giving stump speeches, but even if there's a direct correlation it's ludicrous to say that making false--maybe even libelous--accusations are the same as inciting violence.

The fact that the Eugenics movement was at least in part inspired by Darwin doesn't make Darwin in any way morally responsible for it.
posted by Autarky at 11:04 PM on July 5

And so it begins.

This is totally, totally off topic, but bear with me as I need some support on this:

Does Huckabee not look freakishly like Kevin Spacey? I've never heard/seen anyone make this claim, and I've been unable to convince my friends (not imaginary).
posted by Autarky at 11:11 PM on July 5

I would agree linking Palin herself to wingnut death threats is tenuous. However linking the popular media wing of the GOP to the rise in hate crimes and death threats is provable. The type hate whipped up by the likes of Limbaugh and Coulter directly incites these lunatics. And without Limbaugh and Coulter you'd have no Palin.

In fact. If there actually WAS a conservative party with any integrity of principle what so ever they would have picked somebody like Christine Todd Whitman. Not Palin. But in order to keep their coalitions they need the worst "base" mouth breathers whipped up into a frenzy because those uninformed idiots wouldn't even know there was an election otherwise.
posted by tkchrist at 11:16 PM on July 5

He really looks like Spacey when he says "I rule!"
posted by tkchrist at 11:17 PM on July 5

Does Huckabee not look freakishly like Kevin Spacey? I've never heard/seen anyone make this claim, and I've been unable to convince my friends (not imaginary).

But(t) do you know that there are many who claim Kevin Spacey is gay?
posted by ericb at 11:25 PM on July 5

The fact that the Eugenics movement was at least in part inspired by Darwin doesn't make Darwin in any way morally responsible for it.

This is a breathtakingly stupid comment that goes a long way towards explaining why no one should take anything you say seriously.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:30 AM on July 6 [5 favorites has favorites]

posted by Blazecock Pileon This is a breathtakingly stupid comment that goes a long way towards explaining why no one should take anything you say seriously.

Usually, I disagree with this guy, but on this point he's spot on.
posted by mattdidthat at 12:46 AM on July 6

No, it's still at best stupid, but more likely smart but disingenuous, because Darwin wasn't trying in any way to attract eugenicists to his cause, while Palin (and McCain) were directly appealing to unhinged racists and making speeches designed to attract unhinged racists by including inflammatory statements about Obama being treasonous.

Likewise, his first comparison only makes any sense if whoever was trying to kill W were Americans doing so in order to punish his mass-murdering. If he has any evidence that this is the case, he should speak up about it. But he doesn't. The only incident I'm aware of in which Bush was targeted by Americans was when a garden-variety "I lost my job so I will kill someone important" whackadoodle took a few potshots at the White House from a long way off.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:10 AM on July 6 [1 favorite has favorites]

I'm sorry I some how make your job difficult. I really am. If that is the burr under your saddle, well— it's not intentional. And not knowing precisely what that means to make your job harder I kind of feel it's a bit of an exaggeration. I'm not being dismissive...

This is such a tangle of self-contradictory, self-justifying, clueless babble I can't even begin to parse it, but just to add another data point: it's not just jessamyn who feels that way. In fact, she's downright generous to you. I myself think of you as one of the more jerkish contributors here, and it's obviously directly related to your refusal to see the other people here as anything other than pixels. I'm not sure why you insist on hanging around a bunch of pixels, but as long as you're going to spend time here, why not try to make the place better rather than worse?
posted by languagehat at 6:17 AM on July 6 [7 favorites has favorites]

No matter how many times somebody tells you that you're just words on a page and that you don't mean a damn thing to them, it never gets any easier.
posted by box at 8:16 AM on July 6 [1 favorite has favorites]

The Spacey/Huckabee thing struck me the first time I ever saw Huck speak. It's not just you.
posted by cortex at 8:43 AM on July 6

No, it's still at best stupid, but more likely smart but disingenuous, because Darwin wasn't trying in any way to attract eugenicists to his cause, while Palin (and McCain) were directly appealing to unhinged racists and making speeches designed to attract unhinged racists by including inflammatory statements about Obama being treasonous.

I'd really like to know why it's stupid. People took harmless stuff Darwin said and ran with it. People may have taken harmless (though possibly spiteful/libelous/etc.) stuff Palin said at rallies and ran with it. There's certainly no evidence that Palin hoped someone would take out Obama other than your personal prejudice against her.
posted by Autarky at 11:37 AM on July 6

I know that each of you are one of the myriad holy aspects of ZALGO, and this knowledge inevitably colors my
posted by everichon at 11:48 AM on July 6

People may have taken harmless (though possibly spiteful/libelous/etc.) stuff Palin said at rallies and ran with it.

When "ran with it" = "threat to kill presidential candidate," there's a wee bit of a problem. You really don't see that?
posted by scody at 11:53 AM on July 6 [1 favorite has favorites]

I explained right there why it's a dumb argument.

You're conflating "misunderstanding the arguments of a dead man as an appeal to authority" with "trying to garner the support of mildly unhinged people by making inflammatory statements."

There doesn't need to be evidence that Palin hoped someone would kill Obama. Palin doesn't need to have wanted Obama dead. The fact remains that someone acting on the basis of their inflammatory statements was so drearily predictable that Palin (and McCain) remain blameworthy for making those inflammatory statements.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:04 PM on July 6 [3 favorites has favorites]

People took harmless stuff Darwin said and ran with it. People may have taken harmless (though possibly spiteful/libelous/etc.) stuff Palin said at rallies and ran with it.

If you consider speaking in a spiteful and libelous manner harmless, then I don't understand what your problem with someone calling a person a bitch.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 12:28 PM on July 6 [13 favorites has favorites]

I also know that Hillary Clinton wasn't rich but as a national merit scholar went to Wellesley and Yale law school. Was a congressional legal council was the first female law partner in a very prestigious law firm and was twice listed as one the countries most influential lawyers. And this was all before affirmative action. So. She did all that shit on her own.
...
I know that Sarah Palin did some beauty pageants. And quit three of her four political jobs before accomplishing anything. And somehow some idiots says she is on par with the smartest women in our political establishment.

Clinton is a very intelligent, disciplined woman who has limited ability to connect with people, and some of the accomplishments you cite are at least partly due to her husband's influence as governor. There's nothing wrong with that, and she would have been foolish to ignore her husband's influence.

Palin is an extremely gifted politician who has held formal and informal leadership roles almost continuously since starting high school. She paid for her college education with those beauty pageants, and there's nothing wrong with that, either.

One's acceptable to you, one's not and that's cool. But some of your comments about Palin are every bit as tiresome as the PIAPS comments about Clinton on some right wing sites are, and about as accurate.
posted by txvtchick at 12:40 PM on July 6

YoBananaBoy: Oh, snap!
posted by five fresh fish at 12:42 PM on July 6

If you consider speaking in a spiteful and libelous manner harmless, then I don't understand what your problem with someone calling a person a bitch.

We're nearly at 500 comments, working through his rationalizations and astounding displays of ignorance, but, underneath it all, it's a problem only because Palin shares his political views.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:45 PM on July 6

If you consider speaking in a spiteful and libelous manner harmless, then I don't understand what your problem with someone calling a person a bitch.

...and SCENE.
posted by scody at 1:10 PM on July 6 [4 favorites has favorites]

If you consider speaking in a spiteful and libelous manner harmless, then I don't understand what your problem with someone calling a person a bitch.

There's harmless as in totally innocuous, and then there's harmless that may be repugnant but isn't about to cause some catastrophe. You're equivocating the two.

We're nearly at 500 comments, working through his rationalizations and astounding displays of ignorance, but, underneath it all, it's a problem only because Palin shares his political views.

As far as I can tell my display of ignorance consists entirely of making statements that you disagree with.
posted by Autarky at 1:33 PM on July 6 [1 favorite has favorites]

There's harmless as in totally innocuous, and then there's harmless that may be repugnant but isn't about to cause some catastrophe. You're equivocating the two.

Now I'm really confused. Which one is "bitch crazy," and which is "palling around with terrorists"?
posted by Sys Rq at 1:41 PM on July 6 [2 favorites has favorites]

As far as I can tell my display of ignorance consists entirely of making statements that you disagree with.

Still waiting for your list of 15 separate FPPs about the gays.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:45 PM on July 6

Not that anyone should hold their breath waiting, but some kind of reality-based substantiation for your blathering would be nice to see.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:48 PM on July 6

As far as I can tell my display of ignorance consists entirely of making statements that you disagree with.

...because they're nonsensical, ill-informed, and contradictory. But surely not ignorant!
posted by scody at 1:57 PM on July 6 [1 favorite has favorites]

There's harmless as in totally innocuous, and then there's harmless that may be repugnant but isn't about to cause some catastrophe. You're equivocating the two.

So you think the latter is worse than the former? Count me confused, too.
posted by Hello, Revelers! I am Captain Lavender! at 2:00 PM on July 6

Pull the fuckin' chute already. Holy shit.
posted by gman at 2:21 PM on July 6 [1 favorite has favorites]

Hey guys, I spent my weekend playing foursquare, eating fresh tomatoes (the heirlooms are finally in, though it'll take probably one more week before they're mind-meltingly delicious), and listening to a whole bunch of new vinyl (the latest World Is Lousy With Ideas comp is top-notch!).

What did you all do?

(And now, that will be the top of my Recent Activity for this thread.)
posted by klangklangston at 2:27 PM on July 6

Hi, klang!

We made pie. Three kinds. Still eating it. Watched baseball (went to the game on Friday night - it was a beautiful evening, and the Giants won 13-0, so wooo!). Costco run on Sunday. Kind of a low-key but relaxing weekend. It was nice. Haven't had any heirlooms yet - I'm gonna wait for the mind-melting deliciousness.
posted by rtha at 2:48 PM on July 6

What did you all do?

You're looking at it.

Also, fireworks and beach-type stuff.
posted by jessamyn at 2:53 PM on July 6

"We made pie. Three kinds. Still eating it. Watched baseball (went to the game on Friday night - it was a beautiful evening, and the Giants won 13-0, so wooo!)."

I have to watch my games on the damn MLB site (except when the Tigers play the Angels, Dodgers, White Sox or Cubs), so I had to settle for the Twinkies overwhelming them in digital form. Kinda sucked.

I wish I had pie.

"You're looking at it.

Also, fireworks and beach-type stuff."

Ugh. This is what you have to show for your weekend? I'm sorry to hear that. I at least got a little work done on the MetaFilter Board Game that I hope to have ready for the big meet-up, though I got distracted by plotting out Step Up 2 The Square, the foursquare movie. Doug suggested the tagline, "Think Inside The Box!" and I've been giggling over it for a couple of days.
posted by klangklangston at 3:00 PM on July 6

I went to Tehachapi, a small, hot, dry town I'd never been to before. It's the home of American wind power, with the 7th largest wind farm in the country! The town has XM radio pumped in to speakers that line the streets, resulting in a very patriotic atmosphere on the holiday indeed.

I went to a great dive bar, visited the Hot Dog Festival, saw the cement plant that supplied the California Aqueduct, stopped at the shooting range, watched the fireworks from a tall hill above the cemetery, drove to a really pretty Zen retreat, and stopped at the Tehachapi Loop and Mourning Cloak Botanical Garden. It was bereft of the eponymous butterflies. Apparently, therefore, it's so-named because all the plants were dead and really sorry-lookin'. I guess we were supposed to make an appointment, maybe then they'd have turned the garden on or something. Wandering/trespassing through a huge maze of dead and dying rosebushes in the heat of summer was fun, in a "are we about to be axe-murdered" sort of way. I also got really high and bought folky magnets and cheese balls at Kmart. It was way more fun than it had any right to be.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:02 PM on July 6

This is what you have to show for your weekend?

If I had known there would be a quiz I would have enumerated more. My weekend had a wee bit too much MetaFilter but was general a relaxing vacation type thing. The fact that I have very little to show for it is

1. a good thing
2. unprecedented in my recent experience, so double-plus good
posted by jessamyn at 3:03 PM on July 6

I drank a lot on Friday night and spent Saturday wondering why. Last night we grilled some korean short ribs on our new cheapo Weber charcoal grill and it was fucking awesome.
posted by cortex at 3:06 PM on July 6

What did you all do?

I cooked shallot-honey-chipotle burgers, bought new bedsheets, and made three varieties of jam: strawberry, apricot and raspberry. It was a banner weekend at the old Blazecock family estate.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:07 PM on July 6

What did you all do?

We had folks over, made hamburgers, fired off some fireworks and a black powder pistol. I managed to appear strangely omnipotent thanks to Avenue Q.
posted by elfgirl at 3:12 PM on July 6

BP, I'm totally making those burgers the next time I fire up the grill. They sound phenomenal.

Pie types, for those who are wondering: strawberry-rhubarb; nectarine-blueberry; chocolate. Mmmm. Pie.
posted by rtha at 3:15 PM on July 6

rtha said: "BP, I'm totally making those burgers the next time I fire up the grill. They sound phenomenal."

Me too. At regular hourly intervals, ever since he posted the recipe, the front of my brain goes "yummay! honey! shallots! in meat! why didn't you think of that?"

The animal part of my brain goes UMM COW BURGER NOM NOM NOM
posted by pineapple at 3:23 PM on July 6

AV: Is Tehachapi off the 10? It sounds pretty neat.

It was weird this weekend thinking about what a regular pilgrimage it used to be to buy fireworks every year. I feel conflicted about LA's total ban, and the vaguely suck-ass amateur offerings (the pros were OK, but it was a little distant and nothing to remember specifically). Like, I understand that if fireworks weren't banned, the whole city would burn, but on the other hand, it feels sad to just have a bunch of fountains as the illegal fireworks. I guess I'd have to drive to Mexico to get real ones though…
posted by klangklangston at 3:29 PM on July 6

I managed to appear strangely omnipotent thanks to Avenue Q.

I'll say. *doodle doodle Twilight Zone noises*

I spent much of the weekend reading about Sarah Palin, and now I regret it, in a cloyed, nauseous kind of way.
posted by jokeefe at 3:35 PM on July 6

I cooked shallot-honey-chipotle burgers...

Ooh-ooh, Mr. Fancy Pants! ; )
posted by ericb at 3:38 PM on July 6

I made fried chicken for the first time, and hand-cranked ice cream. It was an excellent weekend.
posted by OmieWise at 3:47 PM on July 6

klang, nope, it's up north on the 58, which you get to by taking the 14 through Lancaster/Palmdale. It oughta be a hellhole, but it's actually pretty nice, the Napa or Santa Ynez of thirty years from now, perhaps.

I don't know where else this is true for, but Fillmore, which is near me, in Ventura County, is a small town where you can still buy and use fireworks (the limited varieties legal in CA anyway), and picnicking in the town parks, suckin' on a popsicle, while watching their air display is a suuuuper Americana-infused 4th getaway from LA.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:47 PM on July 6

Ooh-ooh, Mr. Fancy Pants! ; )

If I don't cut back on the grilling, it'll be Mr. Fatty Pants soon. Still, I think I might try throwing a grill on top of another grill, just to see what new flavor combinations I can make.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:58 PM on July 6

I took my parents to Animal and ate a bunch of strange animal parts (duck hearts, pig ear, oxtail, pork belly) with great gusto. I recommend it to everyone in L.A. who isn't a vegetarian weenie like klang.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:04 PM on July 6

I'm late to the discussion, but there is a matter I believe to be urgently in need of expressing here, and I am both amazed and alarmed that no one else has realized its importance to this very, very long thread yet:

lamb burgers. You mix one part ground lamb with three parts ground beef (the lamb is too rich to eat all on its own). With some spices thrown in, it is one of the absolute best burgers you can ever imagine. Just don't ruin it by putting too much stuff on the bun -- you want the lamby flavor to be strong and noticable.

Buffalo? Psh. Nice for a try, but nothing like a lamb burger.

Also, for the fourth of July, I went to San Francisco and saw Spamalot. Good times. At one point, the main Knight who says Ni sang a song to the tune of frere jacques: "Sarah Palin, Sarah Palin, Please come back! Please come back! Who will be there watching, who will be there watching, if the Russians attack?"
posted by Ms. Saint at 6:33 PM on July 6

I marched in our local 4th of July parade with PFLAG. I brought my 10-year-old granddaughter along in the parade and she had a wonderful time. And no one on the sidelines yelled anything tacky at us--which is amazing for this little redneck town and which warmed my heart and gave me hope for the future.
posted by leftcoastbob at 7:09 PM on July 6 [1 favorite has favorites]

tkcrist, thank you for your honesty. I've been in your shoes before: I'm passed through groups of people that didn't mean all that much to me. In college, I sometimes got invited to eat dinner with the family of a friend of a friend. The family was a group of nice people, but they weren't important to me. I had fun at the dinners, but once I went home, I pretty much forgot about them. Today, I can't remember any of their names or what they looked like.

What I wouldn't have done is to make sarcastic comments while I was there. Nor would I have rearranged their furniture or commented on their parenting style (which I didn't like).

I wouldn't have done that because it would have been too easy. I didn't have an investment in these people. I didn't feel bonded with them. I didn't feel much empathy for them. They weren't complete people to me. HAD I made jerkish comments around them and they'd asked me why I'd done so, I might have said something similar to what you said: "to be honest, I don't even think about you people when I'm not here. I don't take you seriously as people."

But I wasn't jerkish to them, because I realized that they WERE invested in themselves. And it would be rude of me to shit on their lives without at least investing some time and emotion on them first.

If you jump into my foxhole, please don't shoot me before you first ask me my name and look me in the eye. Shooting someone you think of as a non-person (or half a person) is an act of cowardice.

I'm the same age as you, and I do take my relationships here seriously. I don't take them as seriously as I take my relationships with face-to-face friends, but it's not a binary thing. Why do I take my relationships here seriously? Because I prefer not to waste my time on relationships that I don't take seriously -- unless I have to (e.g. for a job).

If this site was just a way for me to kill some time, I wouldn't write contentious things here. That would be USING other people. Whether or not you think they're silly, there are people here who take MeFi seriously. You are wrong to use them. (I think people who take football seriously are stupid. However, I have a basic respect for them as people that precludes me shitting all over their Superbowl party.)

You will do what you want, of course, but my request to you is that you either (a) start thinking of people here as real people -- because that's what they are; (b) stick to light-hearted, non-contentious threads where you won't offend people; (c) realize that you're being unfair and leave.

I don't believe in Jesus. So I stay away from churches. Or, if I go, I bow my head when I'm supposed to -- out of respect.
posted by grumblebee at 7:37 PM on July 6 [15 favorites has favorites]

Hey, Autarky, I apologize for my last comment to you. I was feeling cranky and I wish I hadn't posted it.
posted by scody at 9:27 PM on July 6

"I recommend it to everyone in L.A. who isn't a vegetarian weenie like klang."

You don't drink, I don't eat meat, but by our powers combined—dead by 35.
posted by klangklangston at 10:43 PM on July 6 [3 favorites has favorites]

I started passing a kidney stone. A big 'un. It's the first time since childhood that I've felt pain that was intense enough to make me cry. Vicodin make all better though.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 4:22 AM on July 7

I was feeling hard done by because all I did over the weekend was home renovations and hard labour, but Lentrohamsanin makes me feel much better about it.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:18 AM on July 7

I spent the weekend polishing a huge presentation for Monday. Also, Blazecock Pileon added me as a contact and marked me a spouse and a sweetheart, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. It's sort of like getting a holiday card from the grouchy guy down the block who still hasn't returned the socket set you loaned him back in March.
posted by mattdidthat at 1:43 PM on July 7

You should never give a guy named "Blazecock Pileon" access to your sockets.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:44 PM on July 7 [3 favorites has favorites]

I'd be more worried about IRFH and stavros getting access to my sockets.
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:11 PM on July 7

It appears they're not the sort you'd want as funeral directors, that's for sure.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:25 PM on July 7

You should never give a guy named "Blazecock Pileon" access to your sockets.

It can be a very (gut)-wrenching experience.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:30 PM on July 7

Like a real craftsman, you'll always ratchet up the puns.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:11 PM on July 7

Geez, are you tools up these tricks aGAIN?
posted by pineapple at 10:20 PM on July 7 [1 favorite has favorites]

Carefully, don't use too much force on mattdidthat's sockets, or you could wind up busting a nut right in his face.
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:20 PM on July 7 [1 favorite has favorites]

Wow, that was inadvertently much dirtier than intended.

SCORE
posted by pineapple at 10:20 PM on July 7

I'm just a collection of pixels, and not real.
posted by lazaruslong at 12:00 PM on July 9

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Elevating the level of discourse July 3, 2009 4:41 PM Subscribe

Elevating the level of discourse
July 3, 2009 4:41 PM Subscribe