Italicization is significant. December 12, 2010 8:23 AM Subscribe
Could the favorites pages reflect the italicization of the original comments?
If you look at the Comments tab on a user's activity page, you'll see their full comments with formatting intact. If you look at the Favorited tab you'll see excerpts stripped of formatting. The excerpting is fine, I guess, but the lack of italicization makes it impossible to know whether those excerpted lines are quoting another user or if they represent the beginning of the favorited sentiment itself. This is unfortunate?
If you look at the Comments tab on a user's activity page, you'll see their full comments with formatting intact. If you look at the Favorited tab you'll see excerpts stripped of formatting. The excerpting is fine, I guess, but the lack of italicization makes it impossible to know whether those excerpted lines are quoting another user or if they represent the beginning of the favorited sentiment itself. This is unfortunate?
Sometimes I look back at my own comments that have been favorited, and for a moment I think, man, have I changed! A few years ago I seem to have been some sort of right wing paramilitary who hates dogs, loves Thomas Kinkade, and hunts and kills my own meat while listening to boy bands.
Then I realize I am seeing the quotations from comments I responded to.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:44 AM on December 12, 2010 [9 favorites]
Then I realize I am seeing the quotations from comments I responded to.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:44 AM on December 12, 2010 [9 favorites]
Could the favorites pages reflect the italicization of the original comments?
No.
posted by Curious Artificer at 8:46 AM on December 12, 2010
No.
posted by Curious Artificer at 8:46 AM on December 12, 2010
I think the format stripping may have just been a sane-making compromise at some point—it's imperfect for clear reading of the details like quotation, but it solves some otherwise pernicious problems in how to cleanly and quickly present the comments in excerpted format without runaway html or so on. But that's vague recollection, pb would be able to talk more explicitly about it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:49 AM on December 12, 2010
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:49 AM on December 12, 2010
The reason we have this is that excerpting means the HTML is excerpted too. So a comment that starts with
We can look at including formatting on the page and programmatically closing things up when the excerpt ends, but I think we're going to introduce some new confusion to the page in the process.
posted by pb (staff) at 8:54 AM on December 12, 2010
<em>hello, this is a comment... and is then excerpted, the closing </em> tag is stripped too and the entire page is then italic. The same is true with lists, blockquotes, bold, and any other formatting tags. So we strip out all formatting to ensure you can read the text without running into formatting problems. We were thinking of that page as a reference to content, rather than a place where you consume the content—that's why we felt the lack of formatting was acceptable.We can look at including formatting on the page and programmatically closing things up when the excerpt ends, but I think we're going to introduce some new confusion to the page in the process.
posted by pb (staff) at 8:54 AM on December 12, 2010
That makes sense, of course, but is there a good reason why comments on the Favorited pages are excepts while those on the other tabs are presented in full?
In any case, my preference would be for full comments to be presented on the page, but, barring that, I'd say including at least italicization (and a check for an unclosed italicization tag) would be worth it, specifically because of how meaningful the italicization-at-the-start-of-a-comment convention is here.
posted by nobody at 9:04 AM on December 12, 2010
In any case, my preference would be for full comments to be presented on the page, but, barring that, I'd say including at least italicization (and a check for an unclosed italicization tag) would be worth it, specifically because of how meaningful the italicization-at-the-start-of-a-comment convention is here.
posted by nobody at 9:04 AM on December 12, 2010
So which pages do you mean? I think we might be talking about different things. This page of favorites by a particular member has HTML formatting.
posted by pb (staff) at 9:15 AM on December 12, 2010
posted by pb (staff) at 9:15 AM on December 12, 2010
I'm not sure about nobody, but this is the favorites page (of a particular member) where the lack of formatting always trips me up.
posted by donnagirl at 9:31 AM on December 12, 2010
posted by donnagirl at 9:31 AM on December 12, 2010
On that page, see comment starting "That's it, pb is fucking fired" for an example of confusion caused by formatting.
posted by donnagirl at 9:33 AM on December 12, 2010
posted by donnagirl at 9:33 AM on December 12, 2010
The lack of formatting is really jarring sometimes, especially in contentious comments where it looks like someone said one thing, when they're really just responding to that thing.
It's always bothered me, so thanks for bringing it up, nobody. Even if it can't be changed, it's good to know I'm not alone.
posted by amyms at 9:47 AM on December 12, 2010
It's always bothered me, so thanks for bringing it up, nobody. Even if it can't be changed, it's good to know I'm not alone.
posted by amyms at 9:47 AM on December 12, 2010
yeah, the excerpts on that page are shorter than any other page on the site, that's why we went with less formatting. It's really intended to be a reference rather than a place to read. But maybe we can at least get <em> working and programmatically closed.
posted by pb (staff) at 9:57 AM on December 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by pb (staff) at 9:57 AM on December 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
If you're totally into excerpts instead of using whole hog comments, I recommend running the excerpt through an HTML parser that understands dirty HTML, then getting it to spit out its interpretation of something clean. Hpricot/Ruby example:
posted by soma lkzx at 10:14 AM on December 12, 2010
Hpricot("<li>stripping tags is a <strong>buzzkill").to_htmlDealing with unclosed tags yourself is nigh impossible, but if you have a library handy those things can go pretty easily.
=> "<li>stripping tags is a <strong>buzzkill</strong></li>"
posted by soma lkzx at 10:14 AM on December 12, 2010
Parsing user contributed HTML is an ugly problem, and worth avoiding if you can. One approach would be to stop stripping it out, but don't truncate the comment text. Instead, let the browser render the whole thing but clip the rectangle it's in using CSS.
Potential downsides of this approach are 1) it doesn't serve the purpose of conserving bandwidth, if that's important (I suspect it's not), and 2) The result still might read in a misleading way occasionally if you can't supply some sort of ellipsis-equivalent.
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:50 AM on December 12, 2010
Potential downsides of this approach are 1) it doesn't serve the purpose of conserving bandwidth, if that's important (I suspect it's not), and 2) The result still might read in a misleading way occasionally if you can't supply some sort of ellipsis-equivalent.
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:50 AM on December 12, 2010
But maybe we can at least get working and programmatically closed.
probably worth also closing the italics tag, in addition to the emphatic tag, since I at least always use italic rather than emphatic.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:30 PM on December 12, 2010 [2 favorites]
probably worth also closing the italics tag, in addition to the emphatic tag, since I at least always use italic rather than emphatic.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:30 PM on December 12, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is a pony I would like!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:47 PM on December 12, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:47 PM on December 12, 2010 [3 favorites]
What if instead of auto-closing the tags you just displayed the formatting? "<em>pb is so fired</em>"-style.
posted by kenko at 12:52 PM on December 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by kenko at 12:52 PM on December 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
probably worth also closing the italics tag, in addition to the emphatic tag, since I at least always use italic rather than emphatic.
I always use the italic tag too. In fact, I didn't even know there was another way to do it. My gawd, what else don't I know?!
posted by amyms at 2:34 PM on December 12, 2010
I always use the italic tag too. In fact, I didn't even know there was another way to do it. My gawd, what else don't I know?!
posted by amyms at 2:34 PM on December 12, 2010
Another alternative would be to detect when a comment starts with a block of <i> or <em> and just skip past it to the first closing </i> or </em> and start displaying the comment from there. It's not perfect and it's not going to work on every comment, but you can at least not worry about having to parse user HTML and close tags.
posted by Rhomboid at 2:35 PM on December 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Rhomboid at 2:35 PM on December 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's really intended to be a reference rather than a place to read.
Oh. Why is that?
Truncating the favorites on a Favorites page forces us to open an entire thread to view a single comment in full--reading the comments being the general reason for going to the Favorites page in the first place. Reviewing a lot of favorites means opening a lot of new tabs, each loading hundreds of times more data than necessary. If several comments are from the same thread, we'll be opening the same page several times. We often have to load a full thread just to see what the hell the favorite even is. We'll occasionally load a whole thread only to realize that, as it turns out, we didn't want to read that particular comment after all.
Seems to me the Favorites page would be approximately 100% more user-friendly and 100% more useful if the favorites weren't chopped off.
And I mean, seriously, what is this? Twitter?
posted by Sys Rq at 11:09 PM on December 12, 2010
Oh. Why is that?
Truncating the favorites on a Favorites page forces us to open an entire thread to view a single comment in full--reading the comments being the general reason for going to the Favorites page in the first place. Reviewing a lot of favorites means opening a lot of new tabs, each loading hundreds of times more data than necessary. If several comments are from the same thread, we'll be opening the same page several times. We often have to load a full thread just to see what the hell the favorite even is. We'll occasionally load a whole thread only to realize that, as it turns out, we didn't want to read that particular comment after all.
Seems to me the Favorites page would be approximately 100% more user-friendly and 100% more useful if the favorites weren't chopped off.
And I mean, seriously, what is this? Twitter?
posted by Sys Rq at 11:09 PM on December 12, 2010
Oh. Why is that?
Different pages have different purposes. The thread itself is about reading the conversation. The page we're talking about—posts and comments favorited by someone—has a different purpose. It's about showing which items contributed by a member have been favorited recently, including a list of users who have favorited those items recently. So the information you're seeking when you visit that page isn't the comment itself, it's activity around those comments.
Comments rely heavily on the context in which they're posted. We're not worried about extra data loading if it means someone gets to read a comment in its original context. A comment is going to be its most meaningful there. I think comment excerpts are similar to photo thumbnails. You wouldn't show the full-sized image in every situation. Sometimes it makes sense to have a smaller representation of that information with a link to view it at its highest resolution.
I know people browse the site in different ways. If the favorited page we're discussing was the only way to view comments, we would show the whole comment. But since it's merely a view of information that lives across various pages of the site, I think excerpts make sense. If you primarily read the site from that page you're going to have a frustrating experience. But we know that people don't want full comments everywhere. Even at Recent Activity on Your Posts/Comments one of the top complaints is: too much scrolling. But we feel that RA is a place to consume comments with a limited slice of context (the last 10 comments). Those are choices we made.
And I mean, seriously, what is this? Twitter?
I don't think that's a fair comparison. We don't limit the number of characters you can post in a comment. You can post the treaty of westphalia and the entire comment will exist forever in the original thread.
posted by pb (staff) at 7:59 AM on December 13, 2010
Different pages have different purposes. The thread itself is about reading the conversation. The page we're talking about—posts and comments favorited by someone—has a different purpose. It's about showing which items contributed by a member have been favorited recently, including a list of users who have favorited those items recently. So the information you're seeking when you visit that page isn't the comment itself, it's activity around those comments.
Comments rely heavily on the context in which they're posted. We're not worried about extra data loading if it means someone gets to read a comment in its original context. A comment is going to be its most meaningful there. I think comment excerpts are similar to photo thumbnails. You wouldn't show the full-sized image in every situation. Sometimes it makes sense to have a smaller representation of that information with a link to view it at its highest resolution.
I know people browse the site in different ways. If the favorited page we're discussing was the only way to view comments, we would show the whole comment. But since it's merely a view of information that lives across various pages of the site, I think excerpts make sense. If you primarily read the site from that page you're going to have a frustrating experience. But we know that people don't want full comments everywhere. Even at Recent Activity on Your Posts/Comments one of the top complaints is: too much scrolling. But we feel that RA is a place to consume comments with a limited slice of context (the last 10 comments). Those are choices we made.
And I mean, seriously, what is this? Twitter?
I don't think that's a fair comparison. We don't limit the number of characters you can post in a comment. You can post the treaty of westphalia and the entire comment will exist forever in the original thread.
posted by pb (staff) at 7:59 AM on December 13, 2010
Sorry if that came off a bit hostile, pb. (The Twitter thing was more of a sarcastic zinger than serious criticism. There's definitely a bit of an invisible HAMBURGER there. Still, "We don't limit the number of characters you can post in a comment," is pretty much exactly my point: If long comments are a big part of what makes MeFi MeFi, why must they be reduced to tweets on the Favorites page?)
Personally, I feel like I'd use the Favorites feature as less of a cheerleading upvoter and more of a personal bookmarker, if only it were possible to review my collected Favorites in their entirety without having to load their home threads in their entirety; if I ever choose to view a comment in its original context, then--and only then--should I be compelled to click through to the whole thread.
If the favorited page we're discussing was the only way to view comments, we would show the whole comment. But since it's merely a view of information that lives across various pages of the site, I think excerpts make sense.
But why are users viewing that information on that page, and how does limiting their view enhance the experience?
Even at Recent Activity on Your Posts/Comments one of the top complaints is: too much scrolling.
Weird. Isn't one of RA's effects a net reduction in scrolling? How do such people cope with the site outside that page? It boggles the mind! (Though, come to think of it, being able to selectively collapse each thread to just its title and comment # info would be pretty freaking sweet.)
(Actually, I guess that's all I'm hoping for: More display options--in this case, maybe just a "Show Full Comments" button or something. Like you said, people browse the site in different ways.)
posted by Sys Rq at 10:38 AM on December 13, 2010
Personally, I feel like I'd use the Favorites feature as less of a cheerleading upvoter and more of a personal bookmarker, if only it were possible to review my collected Favorites in their entirety without having to load their home threads in their entirety; if I ever choose to view a comment in its original context, then--and only then--should I be compelled to click through to the whole thread.
If the favorited page we're discussing was the only way to view comments, we would show the whole comment. But since it's merely a view of information that lives across various pages of the site, I think excerpts make sense.
But why are users viewing that information on that page, and how does limiting their view enhance the experience?
Even at Recent Activity on Your Posts/Comments one of the top complaints is: too much scrolling.
Weird. Isn't one of RA's effects a net reduction in scrolling? How do such people cope with the site outside that page? It boggles the mind! (Though, come to think of it, being able to selectively collapse each thread to just its title and comment # info would be pretty freaking sweet.)
(Actually, I guess that's all I'm hoping for: More display options--in this case, maybe just a "Show Full Comments" button or something. Like you said, people browse the site in different ways.)
posted by Sys Rq at 10:38 AM on December 13, 2010
How do such people cope with the site outside that page?
I think there are at least two purposes that are slightly opposed at RA. That page is telling you where new activity is happening, and showing a slice of that activity in its entirety. If you only want the new activity info, you're going to be annoyed at having to scroll through the entirety bit to find it.
Actually, I guess that's all I'm hoping for: More display options...
I hear you, more options are always better. More options also means we have to build and maintain those options with the resources we have. Sometimes we have to make decisions about how to present things and they're not going to work perfectly for everyone. Then we discuss them here, weigh the options, and repeat.
posted by pb (staff) at 10:51 AM on December 13, 2010
I think there are at least two purposes that are slightly opposed at RA. That page is telling you where new activity is happening, and showing a slice of that activity in its entirety. If you only want the new activity info, you're going to be annoyed at having to scroll through the entirety bit to find it.
Actually, I guess that's all I'm hoping for: More display options...
I hear you, more options are always better. More options also means we have to build and maintain those options with the resources we have. Sometimes we have to make decisions about how to present things and they're not going to work perfectly for everyone. Then we discuss them here, weigh the options, and repeat.
posted by pb (staff) at 10:51 AM on December 13, 2010
I do kind of agree with Sys Rq's point about that page -- the only reason I ever go to that page for a user is when I'm thinking "I know he made a comment recently that was about foo, and which had this great explanation of bar in it" or something. I'm looking for a specific comment. (And in my case, usually a comment that can stand apart from its context, since I tend to remember comments that are standalone explanations of things. Obviously most comments depend on the thread for their context, though.)
It's nice to be able to scan down the list to find the comment I'm looking for, so having some informative-length of excerpt is definitely useful. I can't always tell from the first sentence whether a comment is the relevant one, and having longer excerpts would let me limit the number of full threads I load in order to check if this is the comment I had in mind.
What are the excerpts now, 2 lines of text?
Sys Rq, would you think it was more helpful to have just a longer excerpt, say 4 or 5 lines, so you can be more sure it's the comment you're after?
pb, I completely take the point about it taking resources to build new features -- would increasing the excerpt length be a resource-intensive change or a simple change? (I know nothing about programming, so I have no idea if this would be a huge hassle; obviously not worth it if it's a huge hassle.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:00 PM on December 13, 2010
It's nice to be able to scan down the list to find the comment I'm looking for, so having some informative-length of excerpt is definitely useful. I can't always tell from the first sentence whether a comment is the relevant one, and having longer excerpts would let me limit the number of full threads I load in order to check if this is the comment I had in mind.
What are the excerpts now, 2 lines of text?
Sys Rq, would you think it was more helpful to have just a longer excerpt, say 4 or 5 lines, so you can be more sure it's the comment you're after?
pb, I completely take the point about it taking resources to build new features -- would increasing the excerpt length be a resource-intensive change or a simple change? (I know nothing about programming, so I have no idea if this would be a huge hassle; obviously not worth it if it's a huge hassle.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:00 PM on December 13, 2010
Increasing the excerpt length isn't a big deal. Making a switch that toggles between different lengths is a bigger deal.
The point is that we want the page to be useful. We're layering info there, mixing comments, posts, and lists of usernames. A longer excerpt makes the page harder to scan quickly, but adds more fidelity to the comments so you can recall them quickly. Maybe we're erring on the side of scanning there, but we have to keep in mind that perhaps not everyone feels that way.
I'm working on getting <em> and <i> working on that page. Let's live with that change for a while and see if it improves readability.
posted by pb (staff) at 12:07 PM on December 13, 2010
The point is that we want the page to be useful. We're layering info there, mixing comments, posts, and lists of usernames. A longer excerpt makes the page harder to scan quickly, but adds more fidelity to the comments so you can recall them quickly. Maybe we're erring on the side of scanning there, but we have to keep in mind that perhaps not everyone feels that way.
I'm working on getting <em> and <i> working on that page. Let's live with that change for a while and see if it improves readability.
posted by pb (staff) at 12:07 PM on December 13, 2010
Sure; thanks for answering, I'm not meaning to pile on more tasks.
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2010
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:25 PM on December 13, 2010
I just noticed that the Recent Activity page now has italics working! Awesome work!
posted by dg at 5:24 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by dg at 5:24 PM on December 13, 2010 [1 favorite]
There's a small bug however: if someone uses escaped tags (i.e. they type <i> so their comment has a literal <i>) then it shows up on that page as actual italics.
posted by Rhomboid at 7:16 PM on December 13, 2010
posted by Rhomboid at 7:16 PM on December 13, 2010
Just checked my Recent Activity and hey, italics! Lovely. (And much less confusing.) Thanks, pb!
posted by Lexica at 5:36 PM on December 18, 2010
posted by Lexica at 5:36 PM on December 18, 2010
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I know!
posted by iamkimiam at 8:26 AM on December 12, 2010 [1 favorite]