When is a "cool thing in the real world" a "cool thing on the internet"? April 29, 2013 5:02 PM   Subscribe

This post by Lemurrhea was just deleted. I can certainly see why it needed to be deleted (it was an exceedingly thin post informing us that Neutral Milk Hotel has started touring again after 15 years). I get that, but I'm perplexed by the mod reason for its deletion. restless_nomad: This isn't so much 'a cool thing on the internet' as 'a cool thing in the real world."

I suppose there's an analogy to obituary posts. A single link to an obituary is often a bad post. A link to an obituary plus other links explaining why that person's life mattered is a much better post. Still, an obituary post is fundamentally about a thing that happened in the real world.

For reference, this is what Neutral Milk Hotel sounds like. It might be an acquired taste, but the news that they're back makes me happy.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow to Etiquette/Policy at 5:02 PM (80 comments total) 2 users marked this as a favorite

A post needs to link to content that's specifically on the internet. A list of tour dates isn't itself really content in that sense, and by itself isn't enough to make a post. As I said in the deletion reason, if Lemurrhea or anyone else wants to make a Neutral Milk Hotel post that has some content to dig into in addition to the tour dates, that'd be a much better FPP.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 5:06 PM on April 29, 2013 [10 favorites]


"A link to an obituary plus other links explaining why that person's life mattered is a much better post. Still, an obituary post is fundamentally about a thing that happened in the real world. "

Yes, but for better or worse obituaries and Really Big News are widely understood to be the exceptions to the rule. Unlike band tour announcements.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:06 PM on April 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


The post was a single link to a tour schedule which made it a really weird MeFi post. So it was basically wrapped up in a lot of other news that oh hey NMH is touring and that's sort of a big deal since Mangum is sort of a weird hermit and hey maybe I can finally see them and what's that all about and oh hey neat. But ultimately, there's no link on the internet for the information other than a link to a tour page which means that all the other stuff, the real life interesting stuff, isn't really available for the post. Which, hey, no big deal but it's like when I read a really awesome book and I want to tell people here about it but maybe the thing the book is about doesn't have any really good links online. As much as I might just like to link to the Amazon page for the book and a few bits about the author, that's really not a MeFi post so much as me saying "I read a book I liked!" which is a good thing, but maybe not a good post for MetaFilter.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:07 PM on April 29, 2013 [8 favorites]


A good Internet diet should consist of more than just MetaFilter. Sure, we all like the delicious flavor of MeFi, in both Blue, Green, and all its other varieties, but a varied diet ensures you get all the vitamins and memes that your body and mind need.
posted by benito.strauss at 5:08 PM on April 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


For reference, this is what Neutral Milk Hotel sounds like.

Also I know how you have every good intention but do not make this MeTa post into an NMH post. Just make another post for MeFi.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:10 PM on April 29, 2013


It might be an acquired taste, but the news that they're back makes me happy.

It makes me happy too. I found them in like 96.
I love their lyrics, really relate to them, but I only want to see them Live, and even then, I want to be in the far far back, up on a hill, in the grass, barefoot, eating cotton candy.
posted by QueerAngel28 at 5:11 PM on April 29, 2013


Someone's favorite band does something cool every single day.
posted by 2bucksplus at 5:12 PM on April 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Someone's favorite band does something cool every single day.

Mine doesn't. Not since Freddie died.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 5:13 PM on April 29, 2013 [37 favorites]


do not make this MeTa post into an NMH post

Not intended as such.

obituaries and Really Big News are widely understood to be the exceptions to the rule.

The reason why I made this a metatalk is that I get a sense that community standards are changing. Particularly, I'm getting a sense that single link obituaries are increasingly getting frowned on. Is that so? I think that's a change for the better.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:15 PM on April 29, 2013


It would help if you could clarify what you hope to achieve with this MeTa.
posted by lazaruslong at 5:16 PM on April 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


Particularly, I'm getting a sense that single link obituaries are increasingly getting frowned on. Is that so? I think that's a change for the better.

Yeah, single-link obits have a high chance of deletion unless the link is particularly stellar.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 5:17 PM on April 29, 2013


Thanks.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:20 PM on April 29, 2013


Still, an obituary post is fundamentally about a thing that happened in the real world.

It's true that an obit is about something happening in the real world. But I don't think there's any rule that the posts are not supposed to be about anything in the world outside the internet. The point is: don't post something that's devoid of online content, purely to let people know about something happening in the outside world.
posted by John Cohen at 5:23 PM on April 29, 2013 [9 favorites]


There's certainly potential there for a good post, assuming one could find something substantial/interesting enough on the web about the band and not just filling out the post with links (I strongly prefer the "really interesting thing found on the web" to be the primary standard).

I actually don't know that much about NMH, but I'm familiar with Jeremy Barnes, who is from Albuquerque (where I'm from), and I've one album from the duo he's been in with Heather Trost, A Hawk and a Hacksaw.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:25 PM on April 29, 2013


The reason why I made this a metatalk is that I get a sense that community standards are changing. Particularly, I'm getting a sense that single link obituaries SLYT are increasingly getting frowned on. Is that so? I think that's a change for the better.

Fixed!
posted by QueerAngel28 at 5:26 PM on April 29, 2013


SLYT are increasingly getting frowned on.

My sense is that the hivemind still thinks single link posts are good posts if the link goes to
- an unusually illuminating piece of writing
- a collection of intriguing images
- breaking news of explosions
- apropos of nothing videos of cute animals
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 5:33 PM on April 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


fellow nerds the real issue is that if neutral milk hotel is touring again then we can form neutral filk hotel and finally give jadzia dax the love song a pretty young old man needs
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:35 PM on April 29, 2013 [3 favorites]


What did the mods say when you used the contact form?

(Slightly snarky, I know - but it's become one of the first things to be asked in every other deletion thread. Personally I think there's a greater argument to be made for public/MeTa discussion when a comment made in good faith is deleted, vs deletion of an admittedly thin FPP.)
posted by Pinback at 5:41 PM on April 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


Mine doesn't. Not since Freddie died.

But... Brian May's cool stereoscopic project!
posted by scody at 5:46 PM on April 29, 2013 [3 favorites]


"My sense is that the hivemind still thinks single link posts are good posts if the link goes to..."

I was among those who, at the advent of YouTube posts, didn't like them. But then I realized that "a really cool thing on the web" certainly must include YouTube videos when one is a really cool thing on the web. And often they are.

I think most any kind of content can be what a sufficient portion of the community thinks is really cool. But I think that, for the most part, the linked content itself has to meet that criteria and not piggyback on general interest of the topic. When it does meet that criteria, that the post contains a single-link is irrelevant.

Some people make exhaustively cataloging posts that can be impressive, interesting, and valuable; but I've always thought that was sort of the parallel of trying to write primary source content for Wikipedia. If MeFi was about people creating great content here (and that's what these exhaustive posts are — they're more than the sum of their parts), then it would be a very different thing than it is. The fables and some other things always seemed to me to push those boundaries, but they are in comments which, after all, really do collectively constitute MeFi's original content. But posts aren't like that.

The prejudice against single-link posts is strongly connected to the sense that the exhaustive posts represent effort and the single-link posts do not. Which would be fine, except that I don't think that the standard has ever been what the poster intends or how much effort is put into it. The standard is that the community will be happy to read the post. That rightly includes these exhaustive posts, regardless of my personal misgivings, but it also includes single-link posts. These two styles are not in opposition with regard to what the main purpose of MeFi really is.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:49 PM on April 29, 2013 [3 favorites]


Someone's favorite band does something cool every single day.

All of mine are broken up or have at least one dead member.
posted by jonmc at 5:55 PM on April 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


Some people make exhaustively cataloging posts that can be impressive, interesting, and valuable; but I've always thought that was sort of the parallel of trying to write primary source content for Wikipedia.

I've been planning an exhaustive post like that, so your thought worries me. In a sense any collection of links is original content because all that information is not to be found together in any one place on the internet, and metafilter is not as a rule about original content. On the other hand, pointing to lots of interesting things and saying why they're interesting seems to be something that many of the best posts do.

the linked content itself has to meet that criteria

That seems like a good principle. To put it another way, at least some of the linked content should be really interesting in its own right, though subsidiary links to background information might not be a bad idea.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 6:00 PM on April 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Just came in to say that I'm not going to miss the obits posts. Thanks for the new policy.
posted by found missing at 6:05 PM on April 29, 2013


I didn't flag it, I commented in it, but I'm not surprised at the deletion; I thought it might happen.

Seems fair enough to me, really.
posted by Red Loop at 6:05 PM on April 29, 2013


"I've been planning an exhaustive post like that, so your thought worries me."

It shouldn't. Posts in this style have a long tradition here and they're well-liked by many or most. My concerns are just what we're discussing here — this style has sort of implicitly promulgated the idea that containing many links and being exhaustive are desirable in themselves and their lack, undesirable. And that you can "dress up" a post that wouldn't otherwise qualify by adding a whole bunch of other links to it.

It's ambiguous. The thing is, the exhaustive posts when they're done right are really awesome. When they're not done right, they're just a bunch of links to mediocre content.

"That seems like a good principle. To put it another way, at least some of the linked content should be really interesting in its own right, though subsidiary links to background information might not be a bad idea."

Yeah. That's a nice way to put it.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:05 PM on April 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


Someone's favorite band does something cool every single day.

All of mine are broken up or have at least one dead member.


Led Zeppelin FOREVER!
They are the band of Angels.

Let's turn this into listing off your favorite bands that have broken up or one dead member.
All dead members don't count, them's not the rules.
posted by QueerAngel28 at 6:09 PM on April 29, 2013


FYI this page of NMH-related content still exists with working links after many years (except for the 10/14/97 40 Watt Club show which is great and is on youtube)
posted by ludwig_van at 6:18 PM on April 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Just came in to say that I'm not going to miss the obits posts. Thanks for the new policy.

No one said obit posts were going away. (I know this sounds cranky. I don't mean it cranky, but I don't have any other words to use. I just don't want your spirit to be crushed when the next obit post appears and you come to MeTa to say WTF HAPPENED NEW OBIT POLICY?)
posted by donnagirl at 6:39 PM on April 29, 2013 [4 favorites]


thanks for crushing my spirit
posted by found missing at 6:41 PM on April 29, 2013 [5 favorites]


We all do what we can.
posted by donnagirl at 6:42 PM on April 29, 2013 [15 favorites]


Someone's favorite band does something cool every single day.

All my favorite bands suck.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:44 PM on April 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


One of my favorite bands broke up, but they keep getting back together to headline big events like Coachella.

And one of my other favorite bands' lyricist (and rhythm guitarist I guess) disappeared nearly 20 years ago, but they keep on going anyway.
posted by elsietheeel at 6:58 PM on April 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Haven't read anything but the Metatalk post and r_n's comment, but yeah it was a good deletion, honestly. I saw the news, got excited and posted. But it's no different than "NMH, discuss!"

I...may have contemplated using the contact form to write a message with an OUTRAGED heading and then just saying that it was all good, but then I saw this!
posted by Lemurrhea at 7:04 PM on April 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


All my favorite bands suck.

Only one of mine does.
posted by jonmc at 7:21 PM on April 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


An obit post that just linked to date of birth and the date of death and nothing else would be deleted, even if the person who died was super cool. That's basically what this post was.
posted by alms at 7:27 PM on April 29, 2013


Thanks for the new policy.

The site's been arguing about, and deleting, overly thin rapid-fire news story obit posts for years, hasn't it?
posted by mediareport at 7:28 PM on April 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


The site's been arguing about, and deleting, overly thin rapid-fire news story obit posts for years, hasn't it?

Yes.
posted by zarq at 7:47 PM on April 29, 2013


Let's stop arguing and just say no to dot mongering.
posted by found missing at 7:53 PM on April 29, 2013


My LARP, Chaotic Neutral Milk Dungeon, is also running again this summer.
posted by GuyZero at 7:56 PM on April 29, 2013 [7 favorites]


Jessamyn presented a pretty clear and simple in her comment, I thought, that a post linking to a list of tour dates is different, in the quality of its content, than, say, a set of links that maybe included a thoughtful essay, some background information, images or video, etc. That kind of post, she indicated, might stand, even if the impetus for making it was the tour announcement. Its content would not be limited to a tour announcement.

In that sense it's not different at all from an obit post. Many obit posts that are as basic as "X Person Died" have been deleted. But obit posts that link to full obituaries, video, contextual material, reminscences, etc., often stand. Edited obituaries are essays, and they provide background information about their subject. When well done, they go far beyond "thing happened" and provide context and information that may be new and/or interesting to readers.

In other words, maybe, 't ain't what ya do, it's how you do it.
posted by Miko at 7:56 PM on April 29, 2013 [2 favorites]


Your favorite band doesn't suck.
posted by double block and bleed at 9:18 PM on April 29, 2013


Someone's favorite band does something cool every single day.

Mine is never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever going to do anything cool again.
posted by 4ster at 10:13 PM on April 29, 2013


Someone's favorite band does something cool every single day.


All of mine are broken up or have at least one dead member.


What are you talking about? You can't have more than one favorite band. That would be crazy. It would be like...like...like having more than one favorite comment on a website. Impossible.
posted by medusa at 10:41 PM on April 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


It was 'a cool thing', in your opinion.
posted by mazola at 10:50 PM on April 29, 2013


Mine doesn't. Not since Freddie died.

But... Brian May's cool stereoscopic project!


And his cool Radial Velocities in the Zodiacal Dust Cloud thesis.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 11:16 PM on April 29, 2013 [1 favorite]


Well I for one am grateful for the deletion, because I skipped past the thread, and only looked up the band after seeing this MeTa.
posted by Drumhellz at 12:09 AM on April 30, 2013


Mine doesn't. Not since Freddie died.

I agree that when the Impressions split, it was a great tragedy. But Curtis had a pretty good solo career.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:10 AM on April 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


Yer lucky the deletion reason wasn't more forthright tbh, because yer post was pish.


in other news:


2.5d animation good, Brian May's stereoscopic photos bad.
posted by sgt.serenity at 12:20 AM on April 30, 2013


PRIMUS SUCKS
posted by mannequito at 1:18 AM on April 30, 2013


Man, posting on the Blue is just too hard. I don't think I'll ever dare to try it.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:52 AM on April 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


There was no George Jones obit post, and that is bad and wrong.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 1:56 AM on April 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


RIP Possum.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:12 AM on April 30, 2013


Psst, BitterOldPunk: He Stopped Loving Her Today
posted by maudlin at 3:00 AM on April 30, 2013


Man, posting on the Blue is just too hard. I don't think I'll ever dare to try it.

I don't think the goal is to get as many people posting as possible.
posted by John Cohen at 4:35 AM on April 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


Too-Ticky: Man, posting on the Blue is just too hard. I don't think I'll ever dare to try it.

Please, please post. Don't be intimidated! It can be a lot of fun. :)
"The thing is, as contrary and crotchety as Metafilter can be, members here are actually really helpful and ... dare I say? ... even nurturing toward people who would like some help/guidance/feedback with a possible post. If you have an idea for a post but feel unsure, I can pretty much guarantee you that you can contact a poster you admire who is also active here in Metatalk, and they will almost certainly be really happy to help you work it out, or advise you to run with it or fuggidaboudit, as the case may be.

I can also say that if you send a note to moderators via the contact list asking about your post idea, absolutely nobody will roll their eyes and think, oh what a pain to deal with. Not at all.

Something else about posting: everyone who posts more than a little will have their bombs, threads that don't go well, posts that basically get ignored, whatever. Everybody experiences this. Sometimes it really doesn't even have much to do with the posted content, but everybody is super grouchy, or super busy, or the post that came directly after yours for some reason sucked all the air out of the joint, and nobody seems to be in a productive commenting mood. This has nothing to do with you, and you just have to say, "oh well," and let it go.

But guess what? Even if you make a really stinky post that just ends up being bad for some reason (let's say that Interesting Thing turns out to be a hoax or a viral), nobody is going to remember that you made that bad post unless you were self/friends-linking or freaked out in the thread or something. Generally, people just don't remember individual posts in connection with who posted them unless there's some epic element about it. Posters are more remembered for the aggregate of their posts rather than any particular one, good or bad. So someone is more likely to be remembered as a poster who makes a lot of especially interesting posts, or someone who posts a lot about gaming, or technology, or politics, etc.

I'd definitely urge anyone who'd like to make a post but is feeling uncertain to pal up. Contact someone you like who participates here and ask for their thoughts. Most of them won't bite. hard.
posted by taz (staff) at 3:24 AM on February 27, 2012"

posted by zarq at 5:15 AM on April 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


Man, posting on the Gray is just too hard. I don't think I'll ever dare to try it.
posted by item at 6:27 AM on April 30, 2013


Man, posting on the Blue is just too hard. I don't think I'll ever dare to try it.

Oh no no no; if you've got something that you think is good, please do post on the blue. Some people who did gave reasons why.

If it gets wiped (4 of my first 7 FPPs were deleted) then figure out why, okily, start over. Horse, falling off, etc.
posted by Wordshore at 7:06 AM on April 30, 2013


Definitely post on the blue. I know MetaTalk can make it seem like it's this momentously important and scary thing to do, but remember

-only a fraction of posts get deleted
-only a tiny fraction of those result in MetaTalk threads
-some not-insignificant portion of those MetaTalk threads are more about the person posting the thread than the content of the link.

Posting on the Blue makes MeFi better and more interesting for everyone. Please do it! It's no big deal if you posted a double or something that doesn't stand on its own fully. The mods will offer suggestions, if you want them, for strengthening a post. Just do it! FPPs from lots of different people are MetaFilter's oxygen.
posted by Miko at 7:14 AM on April 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


I believe that item was being sarcastic, since he/she has 58 posts to the blue.
posted by codacorolla at 7:18 AM on April 30, 2013


Ok, so does this count as a call-out, or an argued deletion, or what? Does anyone have that MeFi scoresheet with events? This was (I think) my first FPP deletion, and I need to recalculate :)

Man, posting on the Blue is just too hard. I don't think I'll ever dare to try it.

And definitely not! I'm always sad about the fact that I don't post very much; I want to post more (and have more involved topics that I don't want to do a half-assed job on, so I refrain until I have free time which doesn't seem to show itself). Realistically getting deleted is not that big of a deal if it's not made into one.
posted by Lemurrhea at 7:18 AM on April 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


But... Brian May's cool stereoscopic project!

And his cool Radial Velocities in the Zodiacal Dust Cloud thesis.


Solo albums don't count.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:25 AM on April 30, 2013


Neutral Milk Hotel may be touring, but Daft Punk is playing at my house.
posted by sweetkid at 7:25 AM on April 30, 2013 [4 favorites]


Realistically getting deleted is not that big of a deal if it's not made into one.

And we-as-mods try pretty hard to not make it into a big deal. We're happy to offer suggestions or feedback or even pre-look at things for people who are nervy about this.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:27 AM on April 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


Man, posting on the Gray is just too hard. I don't think I'll ever dare to try it.

It's on my To Do list just after "Stab self in eye with shrimp fork" and before "Volunteer to be a waterboarding test dummy."
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:29 AM on April 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


It turns out one of these shows is part of the Mountain Oasis Music Summit, which is kind of a splinter off the Moog festival. Some of this stuff may be more interesting for a front page post (maybe; at least the show looks good), but I ain't tryin' that on my phone!
posted by Red Loop at 7:41 AM on April 30, 2013


The prejudice against single-link posts

There isn't anything wrong with single link posts. That link just needs to be to something substantial. I think linking a site with an explanation of what makes it great with maybe a few deep links to show case the best parts works the best but a single link is fine too.

I'm, uh, less enthused about description free links but that is railing against the wall.
posted by Mitheral at 7:56 AM on April 30, 2013


Hold everything – Nina Gordon is back in Veruca Salt?!
posted by nicwolff at 8:51 AM on April 30, 2013


Veruca Salt still exists? Does this mean there are still riot grrls too?
posted by maryr at 8:55 AM on April 30, 2013


Mine doesn't. Not since Freddie died.

This is pretty cool, if you haven't already seen it.
posted by philip-random at 10:02 AM on April 30, 2013


I'm, uh, less enthused about description free links but that is railing against the wall.
posted by Mitheral

I with you on this one, Mitheral.
posted by marienbad at 12:37 PM on April 30, 2013


I misread that as some sort of unfamiliar figure of speech about railings attached to walls, as if by OSHA or ADA mandate or something.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:54 PM on April 30, 2013


Its what people who don't like Pink Floyd do.
posted by marienbad at 1:33 PM on April 30, 2013


I believe they are called grab bars.
posted by found missing at 2:10 PM on April 30, 2013


There's no content in that post of value for anyone outside of Georgia, North Carolina, Taiwan or Japan. Add in a potted history of the band, why it's noteworthy that they're touring, maybe some youtube clips of them performing, and you have something with a bit more substance to it.
posted by Jilder at 2:52 PM on April 30, 2013


I love Queen too. And I just came into to say that Brian May has to be the most cheerfully optimistic aging rock and roller anywhere. From his steroscopic project to his liberal use of exclamation points to dressing up as a badger to organizing "Badger flashmobs to stop the cull" he is living a life that Freddie Mercury would have been bewildered at. I mean, anyone who can get badgers to flashmob is all right in my books.

Sorry, what were we talking about again?
posted by salishsea at 3:25 PM on April 30, 2013


"A link to an obituary plus other links explaining why that person's life mattered is a much better post. Still, an obituary post is fundamentally about a thing that happened in the real world. "

Yes, but for better or worse obituaries and Really Big News are widely understood to be the exceptions to the rule. Unlike band tour announcements.


One of the most important, emotional, and influential indie bands of the aughts reuniting and playing shows IS big news, and as soon as the tour dates were releaed memes, discusison, and speculation had already started. NMH touring again is huge news.


There's no content in that post of value for anyone outside of Georgia, North Carolina, Taiwan or Japan.


Except for people who will fly in aereoplanes over the sea to those places, or places near those places (the Australian tour rumors started up as soon as those dates were announced) or anyone happy to know a major band is touring again.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 12:44 AM on May 1, 2013


Mangum is famously reclusive, too, so this is like when Jandek or Daniel Johnston started touring again.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 12:45 AM on May 1, 2013


On the other hand, the risk of an NMH post is people either not getting NMH (like a local link-bait article talking about their 'creepy' lyrics) or parading their ignorance about them.

Someone's favorite band does something cool every single day.

Yes, and I post about it when it happens.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 12:47 AM on May 1, 2013


CiS: Both are which are helpful additional information and would have been lovely to see included in a beefed out post. That's kind of my point.
posted by Jilder at 4:14 AM on May 1, 2013


and as soon as the tour dates were releaed memes, discusison, and speculation had already started.

Then someone could easily make a post collecting the cream of that crop together and, voila, it's a solid post rather than just a list of tour dates. This is posting 101.

No one on the mod team has suggested that the band touring is not or should not be a big deal to fans of the band or music enthusiasts in general—my first thought when I heard was that a couple of specific mefites were gonna be stoked, because shit yeah NMH—but the fact that it's totally a thing is not what makes a post solid. The solid content on the web about or related to the thing is what does.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:20 AM on May 1, 2013 [1 favorite]


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