Will Musk's defense of Scott Adams make you leave? March 6, 2023 10:12 AM Subscribe
As surely most MeFites know by now, Dilbert guy Scott Adams self-immolated via racist screed, and Elon Musk leapt to his defense tweeting, among other things, that "the media is racist against whites." My question for the Twitter users among us: has this made you leave Twitter, or at least consider doing so for good?
It seems that by espousing such an unvarnished racism, Adams crossed a brighter line than he had when he was mostly spouting unvarnished misogyny, as evidenced by the fact that all the newspapers dumped him immediately. Seems Musk has crossed the same line?
So, the question is what it says on the tin, and I'm curious about folks' reasoning if they're staying. Mostly I'm just interested in what this about how people think about ethics in the consumption and usage of something that is mostly intended to make wealthy people wealthier.
(I ask it not in a spirit of judgment: while I don't "get" Twitter, I certainly take intuitively to other forms of social media, and goodness knows that I give revenue to all sorts of business enterprises who do harm in the world, as do we all.)
(This is my first MeTa so please don't trash the shit out of me right out the gate, thanks.)
It seems that by espousing such an unvarnished racism, Adams crossed a brighter line than he had when he was mostly spouting unvarnished misogyny, as evidenced by the fact that all the newspapers dumped him immediately. Seems Musk has crossed the same line?
So, the question is what it says on the tin, and I'm curious about folks' reasoning if they're staying. Mostly I'm just interested in what this about how people think about ethics in the consumption and usage of something that is mostly intended to make wealthy people wealthier.
(I ask it not in a spirit of judgment: while I don't "get" Twitter, I certainly take intuitively to other forms of social media, and goodness knows that I give revenue to all sorts of business enterprises who do harm in the world, as do we all.)
(This is my first MeTa so please don't trash the shit out of me right out the gate, thanks.)
I can’t leave, not unless I want to go on benefits and spend my time justifying my invisible disabilities to SERCO-hired benefits screeners. I work there. I’m in an industry of last resort due to my disabilities and I have NO choice whether to be on Twitter or not. None. I am horrified by Musk and I am absolutely TRAPPED, and at the same time meekly grateful that I can earn a living.
Of course I believe in pushback, and consumer choices can work for this if there is conscious, messaged, purposed organising. I was inspired by the virtual picket line for the New York Times and wonder if there are lessons learnable there for a consumer-side pressure on Twitter.
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 10:52 AM on March 6, 2023 [16 favorites]
Of course I believe in pushback, and consumer choices can work for this if there is conscious, messaged, purposed organising. I was inspired by the virtual picket line for the New York Times and wonder if there are lessons learnable there for a consumer-side pressure on Twitter.
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 10:52 AM on March 6, 2023 [16 favorites]
What does this have to do with metafilter? Why was this approved by the mods?
posted by bondcliff at 10:52 AM on March 6, 2023 [90 favorites]
posted by bondcliff at 10:52 AM on March 6, 2023 [90 favorites]
(I’m fine with the post being here, apologies if I should have held off on answering—presumed it was ok as mods pre approve posts!)
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 10:59 AM on March 6, 2023
posted by The Last Sockpuppet at 10:59 AM on March 6, 2023
After slowly backing away for years, I hard-quit Twitter when Musk bought it.
Wealthy people have done quite a job of making the modern world a place that is mostly intended to make them wealthier, so I don't know how successful anyone is going to be at opting out of that.
Ethically speaking, I think that the best that most of us can do sometimes is to pick our battles and try to make the best of a bad set of choices.
posted by box at 11:00 AM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wealthy people have done quite a job of making the modern world a place that is mostly intended to make them wealthier, so I don't know how successful anyone is going to be at opting out of that.
Ethically speaking, I think that the best that most of us can do sometimes is to pick our battles and try to make the best of a bad set of choices.
posted by box at 11:00 AM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
(While I don't have a problem with the post being here, I also don't understand what it's doing here in MetaTalk specifically, and don't really see how it's MeFi-related.
It's not an FPP, it's too chatfilter-y to be on AskMe, and it's not a FanFare or a project or a music or a job, so... there's that, but I thought MeTa was specifically for stuff about this site.)
posted by box at 11:06 AM on March 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's not an FPP, it's too chatfilter-y to be on AskMe, and it's not a FanFare or a project or a music or a job, so... there's that, but I thought MeTa was specifically for stuff about this site.)
posted by box at 11:06 AM on March 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
Why was this approved by the mods?
As a test for the moderation log, when it gets deleted, of course. :)
posted by kevinbelt at 11:12 AM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
As a test for the moderation log, when it gets deleted, of course. :)
posted by kevinbelt at 11:12 AM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
I quit when the deal was completed. Pretty sure I don't need to load this thread with the volcanic invective that an explanation would require.
As a working artist I have suffered significant harm from refusing to use the platform for self-promotional purposes. Then again, I also refuse to use Meta properties. I'm extremely tired of providing content that I'd love to sell for free to companies that then turn around make money off putting it in people's timelines. (I am holding onto tumblr only tenuously.)
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:14 AM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
As a working artist I have suffered significant harm from refusing to use the platform for self-promotional purposes. Then again, I also refuse to use Meta properties. I'm extremely tired of providing content that I'd love to sell for free to companies that then turn around make money off putting it in people's timelines. (I am holding onto tumblr only tenuously.)
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:14 AM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
I guess my feeling is that, aside from The Dilbert Guy being "Mefi's own" in a weird way, this thread has nothing to do with Metafilter and is also about a very polarizing subject. When "good news" threads like "Oh hey we just hired a new mod" and "Hey we need new volunteers" turn into dysfunctional shitshows filled with bad feeling and fighting then this is really the last thread we need here.
But who knows, maybe this thread will turn into sunshine and roses because nothing at all make any sense anymore.
That's no criticism for you, kensington314, this is a valid question that is maybe worth discussing in some other forum or around a beer, but I'm not sure MeTa is the right place for it and I'm baffled that it was approved.
posted by bondcliff at 11:15 AM on March 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
But who knows, maybe this thread will turn into sunshine and roses because nothing at all make any sense anymore.
That's no criticism for you, kensington314, this is a valid question that is maybe worth discussing in some other forum or around a beer, but I'm not sure MeTa is the right place for it and I'm baffled that it was approved.
posted by bondcliff at 11:15 AM on March 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
I have some bad news about most of the people who own newspapers, radio stations, and TV networks.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:15 AM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:15 AM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
"Rich guy with bad opinions owns media outlet" is so ubiquitous a situation that I fail to see how any one rich guy's bad opinions should necessarily sway anyone's usage. Not to get all there is no ethical media consumption under capitalism, but social media sucks and is bad for you, and moving over to a different social media site will still suck and be bad for you. Obviously we all have our lines, conscious or less so, that once crossed, we have to leave. But I find it weird that we would expect people to leave, just because Celebrity A voiced an opinion of Celebrity B. Isn't that soul-crushing, to pay that much attention to the voices of celebrities? Isn't it weird to assume that if Celebrity A's opinions matter to you, that they should matter enough to everyone to create a sort of moral imperative to do something?
posted by mittens at 11:19 AM on March 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by mittens at 11:19 AM on March 6, 2023 [14 favorites]
I have some bad news about most of the people who own newspapers, radio stations, and TV networks.
I have some bad news but, uh, your revelation is not actually a revelation.
Not to get all "I don't even own a TV" (because I own, what, like 5?) but there's a reason I'm not subscribed to any newspapers, I have literally never in my life bothered with radio (oh boy, another "let's count down teh Signs of Evil!" broadcast, followed by "drinkin' songs 101!" Wow, what a great source of entertainment and news) and haven't given a shit about broadcast/cable TV since some time in the late nineties.
posted by aramaic at 11:56 AM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have some bad news but, uh, your revelation is not actually a revelation.
Not to get all "I don't even own a TV" (because I own, what, like 5?) but there's a reason I'm not subscribed to any newspapers, I have literally never in my life bothered with radio (oh boy, another "let's count down teh Signs of Evil!" broadcast, followed by "drinkin' songs 101!" Wow, what a great source of entertainment and news) and haven't given a shit about broadcast/cable TV since some time in the late nineties.
posted by aramaic at 11:56 AM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I never joined Twitter, so I don't have the option to leave, but I thought John Scalzi's post about staying on Twitter was interesting (he is a MeFite). (I do read occasional Twitter posts, with an ad blocker, and usually via nitter, to keep up on Dr. Bob Wachter's Covid news and similar stuff.)
As for whether this thread belongs in MetaTalk: it's not unusual for chatfilter to wind up here, and I had gotten the impression that that was one of the purposes of MetaTalk these days - to be the place for chatfiltery threads that can enhance the feeling of community and connectedness. For example:
Open Gaming Thread: What are you playing right now?
What have you done this decade that you're proud of?
jamfilter
I'm taking this home!
and of course the MetaTalktail Hour threads.
kensington314, I don't have much to contribute about Twitter, but I'm glad you brought your question to MetaTalk. Thanks for the discussion!
posted by kristi at 12:00 PM on March 6, 2023 [18 favorites]
As for whether this thread belongs in MetaTalk: it's not unusual for chatfilter to wind up here, and I had gotten the impression that that was one of the purposes of MetaTalk these days - to be the place for chatfiltery threads that can enhance the feeling of community and connectedness. For example:
Open Gaming Thread: What are you playing right now?
What have you done this decade that you're proud of?
jamfilter
I'm taking this home!
and of course the MetaTalktail Hour threads.
kensington314, I don't have much to contribute about Twitter, but I'm glad you brought your question to MetaTalk. Thanks for the discussion!
posted by kristi at 12:00 PM on March 6, 2023 [18 favorites]
I'm staying because I still enjoy looking at content and posts from the journalists/commentators/funny people that I follow, it's pretty simple, they're all pretty much still active and posting so I'm still following and reading. I haven't noticed much difference between before/after Musk bought it beyond a few annoying and stupid UX decisions and a huge uptick in everyone talking about Musk. I haven't even really been experiencing some of the glitches and bugs that others have, though I don't make posts on Twitter so perhaps it's more related to active posters.
posted by windbox at 12:49 PM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by windbox at 12:49 PM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm a big fan of chatty what-the-hell-why-not MetaTalk threads. Having low-stakes stuff to talk about on the grey in among policy proposals and difficult community discussions makes this part of the site less wall-to-wall stress and makes it a little more welcoming to a broader chunk of the community!
When "good news" threads like "Oh hey we just hired a new mod" and "Hey we need new volunteers" turn into dysfunctional shitshows filled with bad feeling and fighting then this is really the last thread we need here.
Ah, but pretty much everybody agrees that Adams and Musk are shitheels, so there's a pretty low likely drama quotient. MeFites are better at getting into heated disagreements about things they actually care for in some capacity. One of those odd paradoxes of community.
I stopped using Twitter in any meaningful sense right around the time of the sale, because it was a clear marker that things were gonna get worse and not better there and fuck Musk. I am comfortable on masto and had already been active there for years, so I don't feel like the bottom dropped out of my social media landscape, but it's still hard not seeing a lot of the folks—MeFi-adjascent and otherwise—who I would primarily interact with on twitter. And like seanmpuckett, it hurt financially to bail as well because that was the most effective avenue I had for promoting art. But, fuck it.
posted by cortex (retired) at 12:50 PM on March 6, 2023 [16 favorites]
When "good news" threads like "Oh hey we just hired a new mod" and "Hey we need new volunteers" turn into dysfunctional shitshows filled with bad feeling and fighting then this is really the last thread we need here.
Ah, but pretty much everybody agrees that Adams and Musk are shitheels, so there's a pretty low likely drama quotient. MeFites are better at getting into heated disagreements about things they actually care for in some capacity. One of those odd paradoxes of community.
I stopped using Twitter in any meaningful sense right around the time of the sale, because it was a clear marker that things were gonna get worse and not better there and fuck Musk. I am comfortable on masto and had already been active there for years, so I don't feel like the bottom dropped out of my social media landscape, but it's still hard not seeing a lot of the folks—MeFi-adjascent and otherwise—who I would primarily interact with on twitter. And like seanmpuckett, it hurt financially to bail as well because that was the most effective avenue I had for promoting art. But, fuck it.
posted by cortex (retired) at 12:50 PM on March 6, 2023 [16 favorites]
Having low-stakes stuff to talk about on the grey in among policy proposals and difficult community discussions makes this part of the site less wall-to-wall stress and makes it a little more welcoming to a broader chunk of the community!
I've long felt this is something we lost when IRL got its own subsite, as helpful as it is otherwise.
posted by grouse at 12:52 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've long felt this is something we lost when IRL got its own subsite, as helpful as it is otherwise.
posted by grouse at 12:52 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can't recall exactly which maneuver of Musk's it was that made me close down my Twitter account, but it was a couple of months ago at least. I don't need to make that guy any richer than he already is. Scott Adams is, of course, a colossal asshole of the first order, but Musk's support for him is basically a rounding error in calculating the amount of damage that he's done already.
posted by Ipsifendus at 12:53 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ipsifendus at 12:53 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm a big fan of chatty what-the-hell-why-not MetaTalk threads. Having low-stakes stuff to talk about on the grey in among policy proposals and difficult community discussions makes this part of the site less wall-to-wall stress and makes it a little more welcoming to a broader chunk of the community!
Maybe I'm just grumpy today. This doesn't feel like low stakes. I can easily see it turning into a very judgy, arguing thread, and we've had enough of those, but who knows. Apologies if I jumped the gun on calling it out.
For the record, I'm on Twitter until the lights go out.
posted by bondcliff at 1:00 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe I'm just grumpy today. This doesn't feel like low stakes. I can easily see it turning into a very judgy, arguing thread, and we've had enough of those, but who knows. Apologies if I jumped the gun on calling it out.
For the record, I'm on Twitter until the lights go out.
posted by bondcliff at 1:00 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I mostly stopped using Twitter (and FB) for unrelated reasons a while before Musk bought it, but I have a hard time imagining that I'll go back to it now.
posted by TwoWordReview at 1:55 PM on March 6, 2023
posted by TwoWordReview at 1:55 PM on March 6, 2023
oh and let's toss in the "mini v2' and freaky bear post.
he's going to be seriously hard to dislodge.
I hope he losses everything he ever built.
posted by clavdivs at 1:59 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
he's going to be seriously hard to dislodge.
I hope he losses everything he ever built.
posted by clavdivs at 1:59 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm just hoping the stupid truck turns out to be vaporware.
posted by box at 2:10 PM on March 6, 2023
posted by box at 2:10 PM on March 6, 2023
Mastodon is where I post now, and you can join the Mefi instance too. I've seen a number of new Mastodon users who say that their follower counts are lower, but engagement is higher. Mastodon isn't designed to hide users' posts from each other.
I still read Twitter, because there's people I value who haven't left yet, or not completely. I use Tweetdeck so I don't face The Algorithm.
posted by zompist at 2:43 PM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
I still read Twitter, because there's people I value who haven't left yet, or not completely. I use Tweetdeck so I don't face The Algorithm.
posted by zompist at 2:43 PM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
I slow quit after the sale and have pretty much stopped using the service now. It sucks, because my twitter feed was pretty great. This would definitely be another bright line if I were still on it, but god I hate what he did to my nice little garden.
posted by Carillon at 2:49 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Carillon at 2:49 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I quit posting on Twitter or reading my timeline back in early January. I have not missed it at all. I'll click on a link to Twitter in a newsletter or blog post still, to read that one post or watch the one video relevant to the parent content. Then I close Twitter and go on my way. Mastodon fills that niche of quick, chatty posting that I used Twitter for.
posted by COD at 2:57 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by COD at 2:57 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
There is nowhere to go that isn't shit somehow. A choice is always being made.
I get this urge, this "how come you didn't give up something you've long invested in and have friends there that aren't really active anywhere else and it's where you get your news and weather and natural disaster information and it's important to your mental health to keep those connections but some extremely bad people hired some utter fuckshit to pretend he bought the place and you are ideologically BAD for staying."
This situation is truly heartbreaking and maybe life-threatening for a lot of people I care about, and I'm going to get the hell out of this thread after this because I cannot with any ideological purity stands being taken by users of this site that has also done grave harm in the past and has always stood pretty firmly for the right to keep doing so. I'm staying on Twitter for the same reasons I have stayed here, because there's shit there that matters to me even if other people want to do bad things there. I certainly don't have any interest in hearing how bad Twitter is from people who don't understand it any more than I have patience for people who don't understand Metafilter, or whatever other Actually Problematic platform where other good and important things happen. I also have platforms I won't do any business with, and I will explain why when an explanation is needed, but I'm not going to go around demanding people justify not leaving if they have found something really important for them there.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:00 PM on March 6, 2023 [39 favorites]
I get this urge, this "how come you didn't give up something you've long invested in and have friends there that aren't really active anywhere else and it's where you get your news and weather and natural disaster information and it's important to your mental health to keep those connections but some extremely bad people hired some utter fuckshit to pretend he bought the place and you are ideologically BAD for staying."
This situation is truly heartbreaking and maybe life-threatening for a lot of people I care about, and I'm going to get the hell out of this thread after this because I cannot with any ideological purity stands being taken by users of this site that has also done grave harm in the past and has always stood pretty firmly for the right to keep doing so. I'm staying on Twitter for the same reasons I have stayed here, because there's shit there that matters to me even if other people want to do bad things there. I certainly don't have any interest in hearing how bad Twitter is from people who don't understand it any more than I have patience for people who don't understand Metafilter, or whatever other Actually Problematic platform where other good and important things happen. I also have platforms I won't do any business with, and I will explain why when an explanation is needed, but I'm not going to go around demanding people justify not leaving if they have found something really important for them there.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:00 PM on March 6, 2023 [39 favorites]
The Twitter meltdown has been frustrating, because I was never just one thing on Twitter. I interacted with a bunch of different communities (professional, sport, hobby, kink). Some of them have stayed on Twitter, some have moved to Mastodon, some have migrated to Slacks or Discords... So instead of mostly having one platform to check, now I have five or six.
These days I try to minimize my time on Twitter, partly due to general ethical objections, but also because I have friends who were personally impacted by the layoffs last November. Spending time there feels uncomfortable after also spending a bunch of time helping them job search. But also... it's still the platform where a substantial community I care about lives online, so I don't drop it completely.
In a very personal sense, I'd be happy to watch it burn to the ground, but I also recognize that's driven by anger, spite, and frustration that the world's second-richest man decided to make an important communications platform into his personal plaything. I wish there were better, more discoverable, and more widely agreed-upon alternatives.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 4:13 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
These days I try to minimize my time on Twitter, partly due to general ethical objections, but also because I have friends who were personally impacted by the layoffs last November. Spending time there feels uncomfortable after also spending a bunch of time helping them job search. But also... it's still the platform where a substantial community I care about lives online, so I don't drop it completely.
In a very personal sense, I'd be happy to watch it burn to the ground, but I also recognize that's driven by anger, spite, and frustration that the world's second-richest man decided to make an important communications platform into his personal plaything. I wish there were better, more discoverable, and more widely agreed-upon alternatives.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 4:13 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I've never really been big on Twitter anyway, so leaving wouldn't really accomplish anything for anyone any more than staying would. It's always been pretty meh for me, so at least now I'm on the side of right in some way.
posted by dg at 4:33 PM on March 6, 2023
posted by dg at 4:33 PM on March 6, 2023
I hung on for a bit after the sale but the signal-to-noise ratio got wrong quickly. So I bailed, and I miss a few individuals a lot, but I won't be back.
Mastodon isn't everything that Twitter had been for me, but I am a little happier now without Twitter -- and I think I am starting to wean off social media a bit...which is weird because I am not resisting.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:51 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mastodon isn't everything that Twitter had been for me, but I am a little happier now without Twitter -- and I think I am starting to wean off social media a bit...which is weird because I am not resisting.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:51 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm curious about folks' reasoning if they're staying. Mostly I'm just interested in what this about how people think about ethics in the consumption and usage of something that is mostly intended to make wealthy people wealthier.
I’ve technically “stayed on Twitter” in that I have a locked account, haven’t tweeted in months, and look at my feed sometimes to see what the accounts I follow (which does not include Elon Musk) have said. I follow mostly accounts local to where I live because it’s still used as an outlet for disseminating useful bits of information to the public. If I didn’t read it, I wouldn’t get that information.
To your general point about ethical consumption, many of the things people use are intended to make wealthy people wealthier in one way or another. I don’t feel like what Musk says has any bearing on my particular usage of Twitter. So there you have it.
posted by wondermouse at 5:41 PM on March 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’ve technically “stayed on Twitter” in that I have a locked account, haven’t tweeted in months, and look at my feed sometimes to see what the accounts I follow (which does not include Elon Musk) have said. I follow mostly accounts local to where I live because it’s still used as an outlet for disseminating useful bits of information to the public. If I didn’t read it, I wouldn’t get that information.
To your general point about ethical consumption, many of the things people use are intended to make wealthy people wealthier in one way or another. I don’t feel like what Musk says has any bearing on my particular usage of Twitter. So there you have it.
posted by wondermouse at 5:41 PM on March 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Twitter has destroyed about half of Elon Musk's total net worth so far, and it's not done yet. Shitposting is praxis.
posted by rodlymight at 5:48 PM on March 6, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by rodlymight at 5:48 PM on March 6, 2023 [22 favorites]
I don't want to be on Twitter, but I am.
I made a New Year's Resolution to spend less time on Twitter, and I did for a bit, but that hasn't lasted - I think I need a more cold-turkey approach, I need to enlist software in keeping me off Twitter, and most of all I need a job that will keep me busier (I found one, I hope.) I am on Mastodon but rarely - the people I like and the journalists who post stuff I want to know about are still mostly on Twitter, and that makes it hard to give up.
I don't want to quit Twitter because Elon Musk is bad (although he is). Social media is very driven and very successful when it comes to monopolizing as much of their users' time and attention as possible, and I don't like that. Don't like the way it makes me feel, don't like the way it makes me act. Don't like the way that I start to really want to check Twitter during a 45-minute drive across central Iowa. I am, I suspect, more susceptible than most to the dopamine effects of Twitter, and I don't really want to get into an argument about social media in general is bad because I have a hard time moderating my usage. Suffice it to say that it's bad for me and I'm going to have to continue doing some serious thinking about what I need to do to about it.
posted by Jeanne at 5:57 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I made a New Year's Resolution to spend less time on Twitter, and I did for a bit, but that hasn't lasted - I think I need a more cold-turkey approach, I need to enlist software in keeping me off Twitter, and most of all I need a job that will keep me busier (I found one, I hope.) I am on Mastodon but rarely - the people I like and the journalists who post stuff I want to know about are still mostly on Twitter, and that makes it hard to give up.
I don't want to quit Twitter because Elon Musk is bad (although he is). Social media is very driven and very successful when it comes to monopolizing as much of their users' time and attention as possible, and I don't like that. Don't like the way it makes me feel, don't like the way it makes me act. Don't like the way that I start to really want to check Twitter during a 45-minute drive across central Iowa. I am, I suspect, more susceptible than most to the dopamine effects of Twitter, and I don't really want to get into an argument about social media in general is bad because I have a hard time moderating my usage. Suffice it to say that it's bad for me and I'm going to have to continue doing some serious thinking about what I need to do to about it.
posted by Jeanne at 5:57 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I muted both of those characters ages ago, along with any phrases/people who bother me. As a result, I have a lovely Twitter feed full of friends and interesting people. If I see shitty behavior I report it and I get the same non-results I did when Jack ran the show. I don’t click on the ads so they’re not making much money off of me at all.
But on Twitter I learn a great deal about actions I can take and causes I can donate to in order to make the world a better place. I feel those positive interactions far outweigh the non-impact that my leaving Twitter would be.
posted by kimberussell at 6:44 PM on March 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
But on Twitter I learn a great deal about actions I can take and causes I can donate to in order to make the world a better place. I feel those positive interactions far outweigh the non-impact that my leaving Twitter would be.
posted by kimberussell at 6:44 PM on March 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mainly use Twitter for reading and following fandom stuff. The writers and artists I follow for fandom content are staying. Some have made back up tumblrs but don't use them as the twitter audience is large and allows nsfw images and the threadfics don't work as well on other platforms. They might also be on private discord servers but I'm not close to ppl so I wouldn't get an invite.
I think some of the book authors and few scientists I follow might have gone to mastodon but I haven't figured that out yet.
I only use it via tweetdeck so I'm not seeing ads or trending unless I click into an individual tweet.
posted by oneear at 11:05 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think some of the book authors and few scientists I follow might have gone to mastodon but I haven't figured that out yet.
I only use it via tweetdeck so I'm not seeing ads or trending unless I click into an individual tweet.
posted by oneear at 11:05 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I own a diesel so need fuel - all the oil companies are evil, literally genocidal.
I own a cellphone - many rare earths from nations driven to civil war by cellphone companies.
My car, phone and SM platforms (inc. twitter) help me make the world a better place.
Through twitter I've talked with (and met IRL in some cases) many folk in ecology, landscape, plant science, hydrology & fluid mech, along with activists, poets, musicians....
Three months ago I stood in a 50Ha tulip field with a farmer I met on twitter (many NZ farmers on twitter) - that would never have happened any other way, and looks like will lead to a riverbasin rehab. with a fairly conservative group of people who wouldn't easily someone like me.
Your/The world will never be nicely squeaky clean, but we can use the tools of the worst parts of it to improve the world (and then move beyond the tools of the fascists and extremists).
posted by unearthed at 11:48 PM on March 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
I own a cellphone - many rare earths from nations driven to civil war by cellphone companies.
My car, phone and SM platforms (inc. twitter) help me make the world a better place.
Through twitter I've talked with (and met IRL in some cases) many folk in ecology, landscape, plant science, hydrology & fluid mech, along with activists, poets, musicians....
Three months ago I stood in a 50Ha tulip field with a farmer I met on twitter (many NZ farmers on twitter) - that would never have happened any other way, and looks like will lead to a riverbasin rehab. with a fairly conservative group of people who wouldn't easily someone like me.
Your/The world will never be nicely squeaky clean, but we can use the tools of the worst parts of it to improve the world (and then move beyond the tools of the fascists and extremists).
posted by unearthed at 11:48 PM on March 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
I only use it via tweetdeck so I'm not seeing ads or trending unless I click into an individual tweet.
Is it just me or did tweetdeck become totally unusable about a month ago? It kicked me out and when I logged back in all the alternative accounts and follows I had set up were ... gone. And there was no way I could see to log in with more than one account?
posted by chavenet at 1:16 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is it just me or did tweetdeck become totally unusable about a month ago? It kicked me out and when I logged back in all the alternative accounts and follows I had set up were ... gone. And there was no way I could see to log in with more than one account?
posted by chavenet at 1:16 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is clicking on ads in Twitter a thing 'people do?' I'm not being snarky, I'm actually asking more how people use it? I only joined Twitter at the start of the Russian Invasion of Ukraine and am not a successful user - I read it to get updates I can't find elsewhere. Otherwise I don't really get 'how' I'm 'supposed' to use it. Actually, this is my feeling about most S.M. stuff lately. I just - I have to get this other shit done. I definitely go to S.M. to look/research things but I don't feel anything for it (not like here, where I've been reading some of you for years and years and would frankly miss you.)
It takes a level of enthusiasm and engagement I'm just not willing to put out.
I did, though, make mayonnaise last night and then mixed it with crème fraîche and some cilantro to make a really a-ok 'crèma' for tacos. And I don't know how to apply that to twitter so, you know.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:25 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
It takes a level of enthusiasm and engagement I'm just not willing to put out.
I did, though, make mayonnaise last night and then mixed it with crème fraîche and some cilantro to make a really a-ok 'crèma' for tacos. And I don't know how to apply that to twitter so, you know.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:25 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't use Twitter. There is sometimes content on there that I want to read; in that case, I read it through Nitter. I've added an add-on to my browser that converts all Twitter links to Nitter links if I click on them.
It works very well for me.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:29 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
It works very well for me.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:29 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh, also, for good measure - fucking Musk-guy, what a - what a living embodiment of the failures of policy that guy is. And the Dilbert guy? Holy shit - if were my kid I'd feel so horrible about myself and how I'd utterly failed as a parent.
So. One thing I did see on somewhere was the suggestion that two serves of hot, bittersweet chocolate a day increases your stem-cell count, which is a good thing (apparently) and I have no idea if that's true but fuck it! Not a bad idea.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:30 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
So. One thing I did see on somewhere was the suggestion that two serves of hot, bittersweet chocolate a day increases your stem-cell count, which is a good thing (apparently) and I have no idea if that's true but fuck it! Not a bad idea.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:30 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’ve technically “stayed on Twitter” in that I have a locked account, haven’t tweeted in months, and look at my feed sometimes to see what the accounts I follow (which does not include Elon Musk) have said. I follow mostly accounts local to where I live because it’s still used as an outlet for disseminating useful bits of information to the public. If I didn’t read it, I wouldn’t get that information.
This is pretty close to my experience, except with my account I don't even follow anybody, nor does anyone follow me - I literally just have an account so I can go in to check updates if there is a snow day or a police alert or power outage in my area. Like a couple of other commenters have mentioned, Twitter is still the social media network used by a lot of local agencies to break news or announcements, and so I still use it for that reason.
I am not bullish on Musk or Twitter long term, but I guess I'm...less bearish than some? To be brutal, a bunch of scientists or artists or writers decamping elsewhere is not going to materially sink Twitter. If you see local governments, police departments or school boards pulling out en masse, then you can play Nearer My God To Thee.
Also, I feel the hyper focus on Elon has been a bit of a distraction from the steaming hot garbage fire the Meta networks have become, especially Facebook. I find the Facebook user experience way worse than Twitter, with the recommended ads chewing up the newsfeed and byzantine user settings and help pages.
posted by fortitude25 at 3:54 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is pretty close to my experience, except with my account I don't even follow anybody, nor does anyone follow me - I literally just have an account so I can go in to check updates if there is a snow day or a police alert or power outage in my area. Like a couple of other commenters have mentioned, Twitter is still the social media network used by a lot of local agencies to break news or announcements, and so I still use it for that reason.
I am not bullish on Musk or Twitter long term, but I guess I'm...less bearish than some? To be brutal, a bunch of scientists or artists or writers decamping elsewhere is not going to materially sink Twitter. If you see local governments, police departments or school boards pulling out en masse, then you can play Nearer My God To Thee.
Also, I feel the hyper focus on Elon has been a bit of a distraction from the steaming hot garbage fire the Meta networks have become, especially Facebook. I find the Facebook user experience way worse than Twitter, with the recommended ads chewing up the newsfeed and byzantine user settings and help pages.
posted by fortitude25 at 3:54 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I use Twitter lightly, at best. It’s useful as a sign-in method for sites I don’t care much about and there’s one or two people whom I have a parasocial relationship with that I’m not ready to give up (none of whom are Elon Musk). I’m still there more due to inertia than anything, but that’s the case with most sites these days.
I dunno. If I quit, then maybe I let Elon win and that kind of bugs me ‘cos tahellwiddim. Seriously, Elon, eat a bag of dicks.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 4:21 AM on March 7, 2023
I dunno. If I quit, then maybe I let Elon win and that kind of bugs me ‘cos tahellwiddim. Seriously, Elon, eat a bag of dicks.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 4:21 AM on March 7, 2023
So, my engagement with Twitter itself consists of a story that more or less goes:
posted by majick at 5:41 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
- a site appears! runrunrun and make sure to namespace-squat my username!
- it is useless and irrelevant to my life for a great many years
- for some reason people discover it exists now, and I am apparently old
- I continue to become allergic to commercial surveillance and reinforce the bubble against it around me, disregarding the thing kinda out of spite
- super late to the party, I become lightly read-only on Twitter with, like, all the userscripts scraping off the UI and heaps of commercial surveillance stuff degraded
- Twitter faceplants right around the time I start taking an interest in the idea of microblogging
posted by majick at 5:41 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I block every advertiser I see on Twitter. So much fun. I like to think it shows up in stats as negative ROI.
posted by Mid at 5:45 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mid at 5:45 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think the question has an implicit premise that this is somehow uniquely awful or a new revelation of character for Musk, which just doesn't seem true to me. We're talking about a guy who immediately followed up by mocking the disability of a person he just laid off. This is who he is, and it's been clear from the start to anyone paying even a modicum of attention to the whole saga of his acquisition of Twitter. Those who aren't willing to participate in a platform owned by a shitty billionaire have already left, and those of us who have stayed have our rationalizations which are unlikely to be affected the billionaire being particularly shitty this week. It feels sort of like people who were hanging out in early 2020 still saying "surely this latest outrage from Trump will be the thing that gets the media to turn on him!"
Personally, I would be a lot less likely to spend time on Twitter if it looked like there was any chance that this all ended well for him. As it is, I'm happy to scroll past a few promoted tweets if that's the price for a front row seat to watch him light billions of dollars on fire.
posted by firechicago at 6:29 AM on March 7, 2023
Personally, I would be a lot less likely to spend time on Twitter if it looked like there was any chance that this all ended well for him. As it is, I'm happy to scroll past a few promoted tweets if that's the price for a front row seat to watch him light billions of dollars on fire.
posted by firechicago at 6:29 AM on March 7, 2023
Is clicking on ads in Twitter a thing 'people do?' I'm not being snarky, I'm actually asking more how people use it?
Meta/Facebook/Instagram ads are in many cases, eerily spot-on with their targeting of me and the things I like. I have clicked on Instagram ads to make a purchase. In my case, Twitter ads have always been terribly targeted and even more so lately. If the ownership wasn't who it's been (I disliked Jack Dorsey as well) and the ads were good and interesting, I'd click to find out more about the product being sold. But as it is the ads are trash and I don't want Twitter making any kind of commission off of a purchase of mine.
posted by kimberussell at 6:43 AM on March 7, 2023
Meta/Facebook/Instagram ads are in many cases, eerily spot-on with their targeting of me and the things I like. I have clicked on Instagram ads to make a purchase. In my case, Twitter ads have always been terribly targeted and even more so lately. If the ownership wasn't who it's been (I disliked Jack Dorsey as well) and the ads were good and interesting, I'd click to find out more about the product being sold. But as it is the ads are trash and I don't want Twitter making any kind of commission off of a purchase of mine.
posted by kimberussell at 6:43 AM on March 7, 2023
I never understood the Twitter interface so I never got an account. I do read other people's tweets sometimes but then all this other stuff pops up in what I'm trying to read and I can't figure it out and then a screen appears demanding I join and then I go away. But I am not their demographic so they don't care.
posted by JanetLand at 6:46 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by JanetLand at 6:46 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I was and am on Twitter because it is irreplaceable for me for various purposes, including professional. There are no extant replacements, either standing or nascent, for the vast sea of people and connections that can be found on Twitter. Yes, I think about leaving, but I did look around when the trash fire became a trash inferno, and there is no other online place with the same combination of people, organizations, news, etc. I more or less agree with everything in Scalzi’s essay.
Good post, kensington314. I, too, wondered a little about where it might fit best, and I ultimately agree with the folks who feels this fits with the chatty posts on MeTa.
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:49 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Good post, kensington314. I, too, wondered a little about where it might fit best, and I ultimately agree with the folks who feels this fits with the chatty posts on MeTa.
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:49 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Is clicking on ads in Twitter a thing 'people do?' I'm not being snarky, I'm actually asking more how people use it?
Sometimes I see promoted tweets from a magazine or website that feature an article that looks interesting. I'll totally click those, and sometimes they indeed are interesting.
Like kimberussel, I buy things from Facebook ads pretty often, and I don't think I've ever bought something from a Twitter ad. Product-oriented ads on Facebook tend to be like "We noticed you've been googling purses — here's a cute weird purse you might want to buy," which actually has some utility because sometimes the purse genuinely is cute. Twitter's are more like "I hereby remind you that Cheetos exist," which is totally useless.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:11 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sometimes I see promoted tweets from a magazine or website that feature an article that looks interesting. I'll totally click those, and sometimes they indeed are interesting.
Like kimberussel, I buy things from Facebook ads pretty often, and I don't think I've ever bought something from a Twitter ad. Product-oriented ads on Facebook tend to be like "We noticed you've been googling purses — here's a cute weird purse you might want to buy," which actually has some utility because sometimes the purse genuinely is cute. Twitter's are more like "I hereby remind you that Cheetos exist," which is totally useless.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:11 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thank you for posting this, kensington314. This thread has convinced me this model of question is worth trying out.
For me, Twitter was a hard thing to get into, even though I've had an account for years. For being as large as it was, it also felt really cliquish, so I'd mostly just click links (I liked the short format) but never engage. Eventually, the site forced me to use a login to read more than a few tweets, so I'd log in for that. I really liked Twitter for current events and hyperlocal things: when my little mountain town flooded in 2012, cars couldn't come in or out, so it was up to the locals to report on what was happening, at least until we were evacuated. It was really the only time I was active.
If Elon was hoping to attract more users or increase the engagement of less frequent users -- users who aren't bots and/or Elon fans already -- he failed long before Adams, long before Chappelle, long before he toted that ridiculous porcelain sink into the Twitter building.
I read yesterday that Adams is moving over to a subscription model. The cheapest subscription is $7 a month. And with Elon already the richest person on Earth again, I think he's proved that if you have enough money, nothing really matters. You can take breathtakingly stupid risks and impact the lives of thousands with no repercussions. A dark little part of my brain wonders if Scott Adams, as wealthy as he is, considered a similar risk: Did he decide to fully reveal his whole racist goblin side as a beacon for truer fans who would embrace unfettered content and be willing to pay more? I don't realistically think so, but less jawdropping things have happened.
posted by mochapickle at 7:18 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
For me, Twitter was a hard thing to get into, even though I've had an account for years. For being as large as it was, it also felt really cliquish, so I'd mostly just click links (I liked the short format) but never engage. Eventually, the site forced me to use a login to read more than a few tweets, so I'd log in for that. I really liked Twitter for current events and hyperlocal things: when my little mountain town flooded in 2012, cars couldn't come in or out, so it was up to the locals to report on what was happening, at least until we were evacuated. It was really the only time I was active.
If Elon was hoping to attract more users or increase the engagement of less frequent users -- users who aren't bots and/or Elon fans already -- he failed long before Adams, long before Chappelle, long before he toted that ridiculous porcelain sink into the Twitter building.
I read yesterday that Adams is moving over to a subscription model. The cheapest subscription is $7 a month. And with Elon already the richest person on Earth again, I think he's proved that if you have enough money, nothing really matters. You can take breathtakingly stupid risks and impact the lives of thousands with no repercussions. A dark little part of my brain wonders if Scott Adams, as wealthy as he is, considered a similar risk: Did he decide to fully reveal his whole racist goblin side as a beacon for truer fans who would embrace unfettered content and be willing to pay more? I don't realistically think so, but less jawdropping things have happened.
posted by mochapickle at 7:18 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Stopped posting and deleted my previous tweets when the board accepted the offer, because I know Musk is a fascist dip shit and his given reason for buying the site was to unban actual real Nazis.
Resumed a bit when it looked.like the sauce might not go through and frankly that was a mistake: the fun was gone knowing it was a platform that might be bought by some other Nazi at any time.
And then the sake went through and musk continued to be a fascist dipshit and actually DID unban actual real Nazis, so that is that: if you post on Twitter you are now donating content to support fascism, and personally fuck that.
I’m trying not to be too judgey as it’s not like it’s going to move because of it but It would be great if you looked into alternatives or just logged out for a while to see if your brain can cope without it - you may be suprised how little you miss it.
Anyway if the Scott Adams thing is enough to get people moving then great, but it’d be suprising because I’m pretty sure all active users know all of the above about Musk and are fine with it.
posted by Artw at 8:01 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Resumed a bit when it looked.like the sauce might not go through and frankly that was a mistake: the fun was gone knowing it was a platform that might be bought by some other Nazi at any time.
And then the sake went through and musk continued to be a fascist dipshit and actually DID unban actual real Nazis, so that is that: if you post on Twitter you are now donating content to support fascism, and personally fuck that.
I’m trying not to be too judgey as it’s not like it’s going to move because of it but It would be great if you looked into alternatives or just logged out for a while to see if your brain can cope without it - you may be suprised how little you miss it.
Anyway if the Scott Adams thing is enough to get people moving then great, but it’d be suprising because I’m pretty sure all active users know all of the above about Musk and are fine with it.
posted by Artw at 8:01 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Those who aren't willing to participate in a platform owned by a shitty billionaire* have already left
Yup. Although I'll say it was easier for me to leave since I had already wiped out my history once (in 2018) and had only posted about 200 new tweets between then and October 2022. After I commented about that I did end up spinning up my own fediverse instance after all. I'm enjoying it, but that's mostly because I don't have to deal with reply guys and there's much less of the Outrage Of The Day that drove me away in 2018.
The API breakage this week was the sixth major problem this year. At this point Twitter is like an unhealthy tree that still has some growth in a few places. It's going to come down, and it could wreck a bunch of stuff around it when it collapses, but that doesn't mean it's not still supporting some, uh, wildlife (this metaphor got weird). I picked up and moved, and I'm sympathetic to the people who think they're going to lose something they can't replace, but I'm pretty sure they're going to lose it anyway, sooner or later. I'd rather leave on my own time and my own terms, which is what I already did. At least if you get out now while it's still sort of functional you can leave a pointer to the place you go instead.
* For those who might have missed it, here's today's item about the guy whose disability he publicly mocked. Surely this, indeed.
posted by fedward at 8:41 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yup. Although I'll say it was easier for me to leave since I had already wiped out my history once (in 2018) and had only posted about 200 new tweets between then and October 2022. After I commented about that I did end up spinning up my own fediverse instance after all. I'm enjoying it, but that's mostly because I don't have to deal with reply guys and there's much less of the Outrage Of The Day that drove me away in 2018.
The API breakage this week was the sixth major problem this year. At this point Twitter is like an unhealthy tree that still has some growth in a few places. It's going to come down, and it could wreck a bunch of stuff around it when it collapses, but that doesn't mean it's not still supporting some, uh, wildlife (this metaphor got weird). I picked up and moved, and I'm sympathetic to the people who think they're going to lose something they can't replace, but I'm pretty sure they're going to lose it anyway, sooner or later. I'd rather leave on my own time and my own terms, which is what I already did. At least if you get out now while it's still sort of functional you can leave a pointer to the place you go instead.
* For those who might have missed it, here's today's item about the guy whose disability he publicly mocked. Surely this, indeed.
posted by fedward at 8:41 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
From the link from fedward above: The reality is that this guy (who is independently wealthy) did no actual work, claimed as his excuse...
I legit thought this was ABOUT Musk until I read the rest...
posted by solotoro at 9:09 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I legit thought this was ABOUT Musk until I read the rest...
posted by solotoro at 9:09 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Handily all the “verified” Elon supporters get sorted up to the top of replies too Haraldur, so you can see what kind of people Twitter is for now.
posted by Artw at 9:13 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 9:13 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I haven't disabled my account and I'm not going to, but as of a week or two ago I decided to step away. Twitter has been a huge part of my life for over a decade and I'm sad. I miss it. I really loved Twitter. My friends were there, there was a lot of art to see, I followed a lot of interesting funny people, I learned things - hell, there were recipes! Like a great newspaper and yet, so ADD. But the slow post elongated muskrat exodus finally hit a tipping point somehow and my feed became sort of empty and uninteresting, not to mention impossible to read given various outages, the idiotic "recommended" vs. "following" tabs - my stupid android phone auto updated and really broke my feed - and so on and so forth. And also, yes, I don't want to be creating content for the Lone Skum, even though, with my 750 followers, I wasn't exactly Twitterati. As for the ads, for whatever reason I only ever got the weirdest of weird cheap Chinese junk ads on Twitter and I always kind of liked them - this one strange plastic basket will make your sink cleaner! You need this incomprehensible gadget to do your hair! - and they never changed (I could never make the bucket of rats go away, though.) I'm on Mastodon now - thank you Pronoiac! - and it reminds me of early metafilter or early twitter, just interesting people - and I feel safer there, which I grant is ridiculous, but it's somehow much more relaxing.
I don't use Facebook for the same kind of incoherent social justice reasons but mainly, to be honest, because I truly hate the platform. I haven't disabled my page there either, even though it's been several years since I've even stopped by to stalk an ex or two. That is difficult because in this town, everything is on Facebook. I wish it was not so. I hate that if I want to know if there's a protest going on or the hours for my favorite food truck, I need to go to Facebook of all places.
posted by mygothlaundry at 9:25 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't use Facebook for the same kind of incoherent social justice reasons but mainly, to be honest, because I truly hate the platform. I haven't disabled my page there either, even though it's been several years since I've even stopped by to stalk an ex or two. That is difficult because in this town, everything is on Facebook. I wish it was not so. I hate that if I want to know if there's a protest going on or the hours for my favorite food truck, I need to go to Facebook of all places.
posted by mygothlaundry at 9:25 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have never had an account on Twitter and never will, but sometimes I'm forced to read tweets. I get that Twitter is irreplaceable for some people and they will still be there no matter what Elon does. I don't know if I'd say to quit Twitter for ideological reasons/Elon is an idiot, but had I been a happy tweeter, I would have quit specifically for my own Internet safety, given the massive changes in who gets banned/brought back and the lack of moderation. Some people presumably are less demographically likely to be harassed and thus may still choose to take the risk, but if you're more likely to be harassed, it'll probably be a good idea to get the hell out of Dodge to protect yourself.
I have recently become aware of a similar conundrum for myself--a business I patronize that isn't very replaceable, well, I discovered some shitty things about them. But I will probably keep using them because I can't really find much in the way of alternate services, and I can probably dodge that drama since I'm not involved in the dispute that seems to be going on. But that's a different situation from the moderation-free-for-all at Twitter.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:07 AM on March 7, 2023
I have recently become aware of a similar conundrum for myself--a business I patronize that isn't very replaceable, well, I discovered some shitty things about them. But I will probably keep using them because I can't really find much in the way of alternate services, and I can probably dodge that drama since I'm not involved in the dispute that seems to be going on. But that's a different situation from the moderation-free-for-all at Twitter.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:07 AM on March 7, 2023
ULINE is probably the example that most comes to mind about a shitty company owned by shitty people that nevertheless gets a lot of business from progressive-minded customers, because it's really hard to find competitive prices and products elsewhere, especially from a one-stop shop. Everytime I turn over a shipping box and see that name on it from people who should know better, I just sigh. Sometimes I write them an email and let them know. But institutional inertia is a sad, sad thing.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:10 AM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:10 AM on March 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
I seldom used twitter before the Musk debacle, but removed my bookmarks to it after. As a MeFi daily user, I just skip posts that link to twitter, whether i'm interested in the topic or not. I wish fewer posts used twitter as a source, it's garbage.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:13 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:13 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Mental gymnastics: "leave twitter” vs "stay and fight"
posted by Artw at 12:07 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 12:07 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sarah Kendzior says "Don't cede territory in an information war." I certainly don't think it's a failing to leave for any reason or no reason, but similarly I also don't feel like cutting off my nose to spite Elon's face.
I'm also not going to give him $8.
posted by grouse at 12:11 PM on March 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm also not going to give him $8.
posted by grouse at 12:11 PM on March 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
"Don't cede territory in an information war."
I really feel this sentiment, too, but I also feel that it misconstrues what the territory of an information war is. The way I look at this is that by removing my attention from a platform seeking to harm me I've denied a fascist weapon access to the actual territory.
posted by majick at 12:31 PM on March 7, 2023 [13 favorites]
I really feel this sentiment, too, but I also feel that it misconstrues what the territory of an information war is. The way I look at this is that by removing my attention from a platform seeking to harm me I've denied a fascist weapon access to the actual territory.
posted by majick at 12:31 PM on March 7, 2023 [13 favorites]
Yes, I deleted my account the other day. Not solely for the Scott Adams reason, but that obviously didn't help. I'll miss it a tiny bit, but mostly it was part of my past not my present. Mastodon is cool too.
posted by fruitslinger at 12:43 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by fruitslinger at 12:43 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I logged out of twitter and deleted the app from my phone when I saw the Fauci pronoun tweet. I'll still read a tweet if I see a link to a tweet in a chat room, but I'm definitely on there a lot less.
The best description i've seen of Mastodon is that it is the methadone to Twitter's black tar heroin.
posted by jrishel at 1:13 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
The best description i've seen of Mastodon is that it is the methadone to Twitter's black tar heroin.
posted by jrishel at 1:13 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I bailed as soon as mefi.social was set up. (Thanks pronoiac!) It's nice there. MeFites are nice.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:19 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:19 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
A dark little part of my brain wonders if Scott Adams, as wealthy as he is, considered a similar risk: Did he decide to fully reveal his whole racist goblin side as a beacon for truer fans who would embrace unfettered content and be willing to pay more? I don't realistically think so, but less jawdropping things have happened.
Actually, this makes perfect sense. We often make the mistake of thinking that Trump/Musk etc and now Adams are stupid for alienating so many people with their public acts of bastardry, but they're not. They've just done the sums and realised their true fans will be more loyal to them than ever because of their extremism and they'll actually attract more people who previously didn't realise they were just like them. The sad fact is that, if you have enough money, you'll always have fans and/or friends no matter how much of an arsehole you are, because the world is full of arseholes and many of them are cowardly enough to hide behind someone famous rather than risk being exposed for who they are as individuals. Today, they're quite happily living in their slightly smaller world composed of nothing but arseholes, all secure in the knowledge they're right about everything because some billionaire says so.
posted by dg at 1:36 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Actually, this makes perfect sense. We often make the mistake of thinking that Trump/Musk etc and now Adams are stupid for alienating so many people with their public acts of bastardry, but they're not. They've just done the sums and realised their true fans will be more loyal to them than ever because of their extremism and they'll actually attract more people who previously didn't realise they were just like them. The sad fact is that, if you have enough money, you'll always have fans and/or friends no matter how much of an arsehole you are, because the world is full of arseholes and many of them are cowardly enough to hide behind someone famous rather than risk being exposed for who they are as individuals. Today, they're quite happily living in their slightly smaller world composed of nothing but arseholes, all secure in the knowledge they're right about everything because some billionaire says so.
posted by dg at 1:36 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Will Musk's defense of Scott Adams make you leave?No. Subscription does not imply agreement. Membership in a content platform is not an endorsement of everything that appears on the platform.
posted by 4rtemis at 4:14 PM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
You know, I keep wondering why Elon keeps acting like an asshole when he really just wants people to love him. Like, why don't you hand out free puppies or something if you want to be liked/loved? Nope, he wants to be loved FOR being an asshole. For being his own asshole self.
..... I guess we all just want to be loved for who we are, even if we're assholes wanting to be loved by other assholes.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:19 PM on March 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
..... I guess we all just want to be loved for who we are, even if we're assholes wanting to be loved by other assholes.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:19 PM on March 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
That and he wants it to be illegal for you not to like him.
posted by Artw at 4:42 PM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:42 PM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I remain on Twitter mostly for professional reasons and to follow accounts like Fennec Foxes Every Hour. I never use the "Recommended for You" Twitter view, I have Musk blocked, and enjoy blocking all ads and literally anyone whose views I dislike. I will continue to use Twitter until it is no longer useful for my work. Then, I'll migrate to whether my professional network goes--so long as that that place is not LinkedIn.
posted by skye.dancer at 5:31 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by skye.dancer at 5:31 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mastodon not yet at full Fennec Fox parity, but closing in.
posted by Artw at 5:46 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:46 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Don't cede territory in an information war."
I counter with "While there's no ethical consumption under capitalism and everything is currently run by idiot millionaires/billionaires, you can still choose whether or not to drink at a Nazi bar. And if you choose to drink at a Nazi bar, trust that your Jewish friends and your queer friends and anyone else who is a direct target of Nazis will see you valuing a social media site over their continued existence and will judge you accordingly." Don't be surprised if people abandon you because you "didn't speak out" because you weren't etc. etc etc.
But that's just me.
posted by tzikeh at 8:52 PM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I counter with "While there's no ethical consumption under capitalism and everything is currently run by idiot millionaires/billionaires, you can still choose whether or not to drink at a Nazi bar. And if you choose to drink at a Nazi bar, trust that your Jewish friends and your queer friends and anyone else who is a direct target of Nazis will see you valuing a social media site over their continued existence and will judge you accordingly." Don't be surprised if people abandon you because you "didn't speak out" because you weren't etc. etc etc.
But that's just me.
posted by tzikeh at 8:52 PM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Look, if you want to stay there because you feel it'll make you better informed or allow you to better inform others, more power to you. But no one should feel obligated to use a platform run by people they feel don't align with their values. (I'd honestly argue that it's an exercise in futility as the owners of the platform have ultimate control over what ends up there and what gets promoted and what gets buried.)
I personally left Twitter entirely not long after Musk took over, but I also had cultivated a Mastodon presence for a few years by this point and the boost from twitter migrators helped soften the blow. Are there accounts I miss on Twitter? Sure. Do I miss being on Twitter? Absolutely not. It was already not great for my mental health and that's after doing everything I could to filter and lock it down and using TweetDeck to make it not terrible. It's nice to be on a platform that isn't written specifically with the goal of engagement at any cost.
posted by Aleyn at 9:22 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I personally left Twitter entirely not long after Musk took over, but I also had cultivated a Mastodon presence for a few years by this point and the boost from twitter migrators helped soften the blow. Are there accounts I miss on Twitter? Sure. Do I miss being on Twitter? Absolutely not. It was already not great for my mental health and that's after doing everything I could to filter and lock it down and using TweetDeck to make it not terrible. It's nice to be on a platform that isn't written specifically with the goal of engagement at any cost.
posted by Aleyn at 9:22 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Helmuth Wilberg almost certainly felt his actions were justified, and I am sure that the Twitter users that remain would agree with his assessment.
…setting aside, of course, everything that happened to the rest of his community later on.
But hey! Sometimes fascists need money, and who are you to deny them? It’s convenient for you to give your eyeballs to the fascists so that they can get paid, but the main thing is that it’s convenient for you. That’s what matters in the end, yes?
Obviously yes. Convenience and professional advancement above all. Just like good ol’ Helmuth.
posted by aramaic at 9:44 PM on March 7, 2023
…setting aside, of course, everything that happened to the rest of his community later on.
But hey! Sometimes fascists need money, and who are you to deny them? It’s convenient for you to give your eyeballs to the fascists so that they can get paid, but the main thing is that it’s convenient for you. That’s what matters in the end, yes?
Obviously yes. Convenience and professional advancement above all. Just like good ol’ Helmuth.
posted by aramaic at 9:44 PM on March 7, 2023
...I don't think Twitter is a Nazi bar (like any of a few other websites)- I do think it is a town with a Nazi bar, though. Now, if the Nazis take over the rest of the town, then, yeah, burn it to the ground. But - similar but different - what do you do about Florida? (Or the whole of the US under Trump?) When the figure-head, the mayor/leader says and maybe does reprehensible things do you condemn the whole place and everyone in it? Or do you take a more granular approach? I'm gonna argue you take the latter, with the caveat that there is a tipping point, (we will see when/if DeSantis hits it) - but I don't think asshole number 1 stumping for some other asshole is that tipping point... (All that said, I'm not devoted to Twitter and if folds tomorrow I won't notice - more pertinent for me is keeping a huge mega-phone like Twitter from being used exclusively as a funnel for Musk's bullshit. As it was used by Trump... I think I'd like to see it nationalised and run by an entity that obeys German-style anti-Nazi and Euro Privacy laws.) Also, fuck the Nazis.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:19 AM on March 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 1:19 AM on March 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'll add: I have the privilege of not needing social platforms to feed/clothe/house myself. So basically I went into this takeover with Twitter being just on the bubble. Five or six years ago, Facebook pissed me off and I zapped that. Then a couple years ago, Instagram. Now Twitter.
It's like social media tilts easily to the problematic or something!
posted by fruitslinger at 5:51 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's like social media tilts easily to the problematic or something!
posted by fruitslinger at 5:51 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
And if you choose to drink at a Nazi bar, trust that your Jewish friends and your queer friends and anyone else who is a direct target of Nazis will see you valuing a social media site over their continued existence and will judge you accordingly.
When I talked earlier about how weird it is that people would make a moral case out of whether or not to leave Twitter, this kind of statement was what I was imagining. Twitter isn't anything like a Nazi bar; the comparison silences the tremendous number of diverse voices that remain there. And "continued existence"? We are a basic fact of human existence and will not be eliminated because someone read a website. (We're also not a rhetorical cudgel, and to use us as such is--again!--really weird.)
posted by mittens at 6:12 AM on March 8, 2023 [30 favorites]
When I talked earlier about how weird it is that people would make a moral case out of whether or not to leave Twitter, this kind of statement was what I was imagining. Twitter isn't anything like a Nazi bar; the comparison silences the tremendous number of diverse voices that remain there. And "continued existence"? We are a basic fact of human existence and will not be eliminated because someone read a website. (We're also not a rhetorical cudgel, and to use us as such is--again!--really weird.)
posted by mittens at 6:12 AM on March 8, 2023 [30 favorites]
Yeah, it's bad. But, y'all, the choices are not "I am leaving" or "I endorse this venal crud pancake."
Soylent Twitter is made of people. Why is nobody organizing?
posted by amtho at 6:37 AM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Soylent Twitter is made of people. Why is nobody organizing?
posted by amtho at 6:37 AM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would urge any minority voices remaining on Twitter to devote their energies to finding an alternative rather defending why it’s okay to stay, tbh. Best time to do it was 2022 second best is 2023. 2024 hopefully the thing won’t exist and if it does it won’t be worth being on.
And you’re right about the implication: there is a moral trade off in remaining on Twitter - one that becomes a worse deal as Twitter becomes less useful and the community more fascism dominated. But the other thing is that if you are community that will be target the new owner of the platform can and will find ways to use it against you, and the more you rely on it the more exposure you have to that.
posted by Artw at 6:49 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
And you’re right about the implication: there is a moral trade off in remaining on Twitter - one that becomes a worse deal as Twitter becomes less useful and the community more fascism dominated. But the other thing is that if you are community that will be target the new owner of the platform can and will find ways to use it against you, and the more you rely on it the more exposure you have to that.
posted by Artw at 6:49 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
>A dark little part of my brain wonders if Scott Adams, as wealthy as he is, considered a similar risk: Did he decide to fully reveal his whole racist goblin side as a beacon for truer fans who would embrace unfettered content and be willing to pay more? I don't realistically think so, but less jawdropping things have happened.
>>Actually, this makes perfect sense. We often make the mistake of thinking that Trump/Musk etc and now Adams are stupid for alienating so many people with their public acts of bastardry, but they're not. They've just done the sums and realised their true fans will be more loyal to them than ever because of their extremism and they'll actually attract more people who previously didn't realise they were just like them.
It's very similar to how scammers will use deliberately clumsy/misspelled appeals to filter out people who might be more skeptical. (Trump's tweets and messages, and the copycat GOP funding messages, are similar. Though his semi-illiteracy might be genuine, the weird writing style provides the same kind of filter as the deliberate scammers.) There can be an advantage to filtering for gullible people, or for fellow travelers who are then going to be more willing to part with their money, versus trying to appeal to the mainstream.
Personally, I still have a twitter account. I signed up at the beginning of the war in Ukraine and use it exclusively to follow activists, academics, and journalists who post about the conflict. I could probably recreate a portion of that off of twitter, but it would require multiple accounts on other sites and not all of them have other accounts that they post on. I use an ad blocker so I never see the ads. Getting rid of all the suggested topics and content took a few hours of repeatedly clicking on the "not interested" button, but that finally ceased.
But I detest that even with my incredibly minimal usage, I'm still providing twitter with a user and therefore some small level of value. Once the war is over, I'm looking forward to no longer having any reason to go to that site.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:56 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
>>Actually, this makes perfect sense. We often make the mistake of thinking that Trump/Musk etc and now Adams are stupid for alienating so many people with their public acts of bastardry, but they're not. They've just done the sums and realised their true fans will be more loyal to them than ever because of their extremism and they'll actually attract more people who previously didn't realise they were just like them.
It's very similar to how scammers will use deliberately clumsy/misspelled appeals to filter out people who might be more skeptical. (Trump's tweets and messages, and the copycat GOP funding messages, are similar. Though his semi-illiteracy might be genuine, the weird writing style provides the same kind of filter as the deliberate scammers.) There can be an advantage to filtering for gullible people, or for fellow travelers who are then going to be more willing to part with their money, versus trying to appeal to the mainstream.
Personally, I still have a twitter account. I signed up at the beginning of the war in Ukraine and use it exclusively to follow activists, academics, and journalists who post about the conflict. I could probably recreate a portion of that off of twitter, but it would require multiple accounts on other sites and not all of them have other accounts that they post on. I use an ad blocker so I never see the ads. Getting rid of all the suggested topics and content took a few hours of repeatedly clicking on the "not interested" button, but that finally ceased.
But I detest that even with my incredibly minimal usage, I'm still providing twitter with a user and therefore some small level of value. Once the war is over, I'm looking forward to no longer having any reason to go to that site.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:56 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I haven't deleted my Twitter account, but I don't have the app on any of my devices and I don't use it regularly. It's primary use for me has been when I need to get a response from a company, if you @ them in a negative Tweet it usually gets a prompt response, but that has dropped off in recent years.
Musk has been awful for years, and so has Adams. I just don't think I can be bothered to log in an delete my accounts tho.
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:17 AM on March 8, 2023
Musk has been awful for years, and so has Adams. I just don't think I can be bothered to log in an delete my accounts tho.
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:17 AM on March 8, 2023
tzikeh: And if you choose to drink at a Nazi bar, trust that your Jewish friends and your queer friends and anyone else who is a direct target of Nazis will see you valuing a social media site over their continued existence and will judge you accordingly.mittens: When I talked earlier about how weird it is that people would make a moral case out of whether or not to leave Twitter, this kind of statement was what I was imagining.
Yeah, that's why I made the statement, because I think you're wrong.
Twitter isn't anything like a Nazi bar;
Are there Nazis there, sitting around having discussions where anybody there can hear them? Is the bartender actively supporting their voices, and suppressing the voices who oppose him and/or his Nazi customers? Congratulations; it's exactly like a Nazi bar.
I will refer you to this story about what is and isn't a Nazi bar. The story was originally a series of tweets written by iamragesparkle, but I will not link to Twitter. By the way, Twitter is now at the end of the story, not the beginning.
...I don't think Twitter is a Nazi bar (like any of a few other websites)- I do think it is a town with a Nazi bar, though.... But - similar but different - what do you do about Florida? (Or the whole of the US under Trump?)
If your virtual town has a virtual Nazi bar, then you can leave your virtual town, unlike asking people who live in Florida to just up and move to another state. Comparing Twitter to Florida is ridiculous.
posted by tzikeh at 7:50 AM on March 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
This MeTa has made me aware of Haraldur, and for that, I am grateful, because this is a sick burn:
Oh! I forgot to mention that I read you can't go to the bathroom on your own either @elonmuskposted by virago at 8:26 AM on March 8, 2023 [17 favorites]
I'm sorry to hear about that. I know the feeling.
The only difference is I can't do it because of a physical disability and you're afraid someone you hurt will attack you while you poop.
God, that was the BEST.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:01 AM on March 8, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:01 AM on March 8, 2023
I've never had an active Twitter account but every now and then, somebody links to something which I check out.
Most recently, it was William Friedkin's fabulously derisive put down of the movie Babylon, and its director. I enjoyed some of the back and forth that followed, so clicked to Friedkin's profile to see what else he's been posting. Turns out the director of The Exorcist and French Connection (among others) has an intriguing angle on a lot of stuff -- none of it remotely Nazi.
It's not enough to make me want to throw in with Twitter but I'm glad for the insight into a creative mind who, unlike many of his generation (he's a boomer), seems to be gathering precious little moss.
posted by philip-random at 9:50 AM on March 8, 2023
Most recently, it was William Friedkin's fabulously derisive put down of the movie Babylon, and its director. I enjoyed some of the back and forth that followed, so clicked to Friedkin's profile to see what else he's been posting. Turns out the director of The Exorcist and French Connection (among others) has an intriguing angle on a lot of stuff -- none of it remotely Nazi.
It's not enough to make me want to throw in with Twitter but I'm glad for the insight into a creative mind who, unlike many of his generation (he's a boomer), seems to be gathering precious little moss.
posted by philip-random at 9:50 AM on March 8, 2023
Soylent Twitter is made of people. Why is nobody organizing?
Organizing to do what? Somehow stop Musk from doing literally whatever he wants, (and whatever he wants is pro-fascism)? How would that work? What actions could an organized group of users take that matter at all?
I guess the one thing that IMO accomplishes anything is organizing a Twitter strike or boycott (stopping making or consuming content there), but what are the differences between that and moving your social media presence off Twitter?
posted by aubilenon at 9:56 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Organizing to do what? Somehow stop Musk from doing literally whatever he wants, (and whatever he wants is pro-fascism)? How would that work? What actions could an organized group of users take that matter at all?
I guess the one thing that IMO accomplishes anything is organizing a Twitter strike or boycott (stopping making or consuming content there), but what are the differences between that and moving your social media presence off Twitter?
posted by aubilenon at 9:56 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm going to keep my ringside seat because, honestly, I can't get enough of watching this billionaire repeatedly shooting himself in the dick.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:15 AM on March 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:15 AM on March 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
I quit Twitter in the early Musk days, but (while I followed various progressive writers) I was mostly using Twitter for hobby stuff or cute animal pics. The "hanging out at a bar owned by a racist asshole" metaphor is pretty good at capturing why I left.
A lot of those progressives I followed stayed on, though. Including minorities. I do think the calculation is different if you're using it to persuade some people and challenge others. The better metaphor is (if you're old enough to remember the day) the one local paper or broadcast TV station. The owner might be horrible, but do you refuse to do interviews with their paper? Never buy classifieds? Consider a letter to the editor "free content" you don't want to provide? Turn up your nose at an invitation to write a column?
Maybe, if you can get away with it, but more often the complaint is lack of access to communication infrastructure. Boycotting in that case is a calculation, not a moral imperative.
And Twitter is/was one of the few places where interactions spread across spheres. It was cliquish, but the messages would cross circles. On a minor level I was exposed to a lot more BIPOC/LGBQT game designers--and their concerns--than I was before I joined or after I left. But even better: Fragile manchild Musk got so mad that this was the one place people didn't uniformly laugh at his jokes or call him a genius he was goaded into wasting $40 billion on it.
posted by mark k at 10:40 AM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
A lot of those progressives I followed stayed on, though. Including minorities. I do think the calculation is different if you're using it to persuade some people and challenge others. The better metaphor is (if you're old enough to remember the day) the one local paper or broadcast TV station. The owner might be horrible, but do you refuse to do interviews with their paper? Never buy classifieds? Consider a letter to the editor "free content" you don't want to provide? Turn up your nose at an invitation to write a column?
Maybe, if you can get away with it, but more often the complaint is lack of access to communication infrastructure. Boycotting in that case is a calculation, not a moral imperative.
And Twitter is/was one of the few places where interactions spread across spheres. It was cliquish, but the messages would cross circles. On a minor level I was exposed to a lot more BIPOC/LGBQT game designers--and their concerns--than I was before I joined or after I left. But even better: Fragile manchild Musk got so mad that this was the one place people didn't uniformly laugh at his jokes or call him a genius he was goaded into wasting $40 billion on it.
posted by mark k at 10:40 AM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
philip-random, the twitter account you linked to is one of my favorite pundits on the site and one of the accounts that makes twitter worthwhile, but he is not William Friedkin. Friedkin's twitter is here.
posted by cakelite at 10:49 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cakelite at 10:49 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Everytime I turn over a shipping box and see that name on it from people who should know better, I just sigh. Sometimes I write them an email and let them know. But institutional inertia is a sad, sad thing.
We totally know better, and pretty much all of us at my job agree about it, but rules in place and finding some specific things mean that we still use them. It's depressing, but there aren't viable options at the moment.
I'm a lurker on Twitter, and when the people I want to read go elsewhere, I will go too.
posted by PussKillian at 10:50 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
We totally know better, and pretty much all of us at my job agree about it, but rules in place and finding some specific things mean that we still use them. It's depressing, but there aren't viable options at the moment.
I'm a lurker on Twitter, and when the people I want to read go elsewhere, I will go too.
posted by PussKillian at 10:50 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
but he is not William Friedkin.
thanks for the clarification. And lesson learned, I guess. If you want to shortcut toward getting people to take you seriously on Twitter (the interwebs in general), position yourself as maybe someone famous/infamous.
posted by philip-random at 11:27 AM on March 8, 2023
thanks for the clarification. And lesson learned, I guess. If you want to shortcut toward getting people to take you seriously on Twitter (the interwebs in general), position yourself as maybe someone famous/infamous.
posted by philip-random at 11:27 AM on March 8, 2023
If Twitter is a Nazi bar and anyone who stays on Twitter is basically a Nazi collaborator, then what does that say about MetaFilter—a place with a substantial number of members who still continue, even if begrudgingly, to frequent Twitter? Does that not make MetaFilter a Nazi bar, as well? Or at the very least, Nazi-adjacent? And what does that say about anyone who chooses to spend their time here?
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:40 AM on March 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:40 AM on March 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've ported several of my Twitter follows over to Mastodon but not nearly enough of them are using Mastodon to make it worthwhile for me to ditch Twitter entirely. I have some other side pursuits that require social media management, including Twitter, so leaving isn't really an option, and I'm OK with that, even when Elon or Scott Adams are trending.
posted by emelenjr at 11:48 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by emelenjr at 11:48 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I still have a Twitter account--it's been private and curated all to hell for about a decade plus--but ever since I removed it from my phone, I definitely don't bother with it as much. I check it occasionally on my laptop but when I do, it's just to see what's happening on the very vigorous hashtag for my city. (Real time traffic updates, local issues and events, etc). My town is not big enough for a robust alternative weekly, the local paper is owned by PostMedia (conservative with a C), and it's bizarrely hard to find out what is happening here in terms of events or such like without it. I mean, there is my local subreddit that is more helpful than Twitter, so it's often my first port of call.
posted by Kitteh at 12:25 PM on March 8, 2023
posted by Kitteh at 12:25 PM on March 8, 2023
> Everytime I turn over a shipping box and see that name on it from people who should know better, I just sigh. Sometimes I write them an email and let them know. But institutional inertia is a sad, sad thing.
We totally know better, and pretty much all of us at my job agree about it, but rules in place and finding some specific things mean that we still use them. It's depressing, but there aren't viable options at the moment.
Seconding this. They have things that we simply can't find anywhere else; although, I've been using them less and less (however, often by going via Amazon, which is its own bugaboo).
It's like the problem that the team ran into in The Good Place - trying to Do The Right Thing has so many layers of complexity to it sometimes that all any of us can do is make the least bad choice.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:30 PM on March 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
We totally know better, and pretty much all of us at my job agree about it, but rules in place and finding some specific things mean that we still use them. It's depressing, but there aren't viable options at the moment.
Seconding this. They have things that we simply can't find anywhere else; although, I've been using them less and less (however, often by going via Amazon, which is its own bugaboo).
It's like the problem that the team ran into in The Good Place - trying to Do The Right Thing has so many layers of complexity to it sometimes that all any of us can do is make the least bad choice.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:30 PM on March 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
Engaging with Twitter is tacit support for fascism because it makes a fascist site more attractive to advertisers to show activity and the non fascist users provide a sheen of legitimacy. Also the reason fascists wanted to be on Twitter so bad and not just hang out on Gab or Parler is because they want to hang out with normies, either to fight them or to convert them. Negative engagement helps as much as positive engagement so don't think it makes a difference.
Engaging with Metafilter does not do any of those things, except possibly indirectly when linking directly to Twitter.
Hope that helps.
posted by Artw at 12:43 PM on March 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
Engaging with Metafilter does not do any of those things, except possibly indirectly when linking directly to Twitter.
Hope that helps.
posted by Artw at 12:43 PM on March 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
I quit in 2017 after I realized that I was basically promoting Twitter by having account on there that people like and that I was perpetuating the idea that you can't not be on Twitter. It had sunk in by then that Twitter was a big part of Trump being president. Twitter, in order to increased perceived shareholder value, made sure Trump could do his thing, and addicted journalists made sure his tweets became news.
I hope the tech workers that made themselves rich from this always remember what they've done.
posted by ignignokt at 12:58 PM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hope the tech workers that made themselves rich from this always remember what they've done.
posted by ignignokt at 12:58 PM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I use an AI art program to play with (Nightcafe), it is paid in "points" which you can pay money for, or accumulate through things like winning contests. Posting one of your pictures to Twitter, if you have more than 100 followers, also gives you free points. So my Twitter is now used pretty much exclusively for farming points and showing off my silly AI pictures. (Link in profile if you're interested).
posted by The otter lady at 2:33 PM on March 8, 2023
posted by The otter lady at 2:33 PM on March 8, 2023
If Twitter is a Nazi bar and anyone who stays on Twitter is basically a Nazi collaborator, then what does that say about MetaFilter—a place with a substantial number of members who still continue, even if begrudgingly, to frequent Twitter? Does that not make MetaFilter a Nazi bar, as well? Or at the very least, Nazi-adjacent? And what does that say about anyone who chooses to spend their time here?
I’m in awe of all of the comments that are disappeared without a trace and this one is just hanging out like nobody said anything weird.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 3:26 PM on March 8, 2023
I’m in awe of all of the comments that are disappeared without a trace and this one is just hanging out like nobody said anything weird.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 3:26 PM on March 8, 2023
There certainly have been some moderation choices, for sure.
posted by Artw at 3:40 PM on March 8, 2023
posted by Artw at 3:40 PM on March 8, 2023
I can easily see it turning into a very judgy, arguing thread, and we've had enough of those, but who knows. Apologies if I jumped the gun on calling it out.
Part of moving towards a more community run MeFi is letting more of the MeTa threads get discussed by the MeFi community even if mods/admins feel they might go sideways. This was initially posted as an AskMe and it felt maybe more chatfilter for that and so mods suggested it be posted here.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:44 PM on March 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Part of moving towards a more community run MeFi is letting more of the MeTa threads get discussed by the MeFi community even if mods/admins feel they might go sideways. This was initially posted as an AskMe and it felt maybe more chatfilter for that and so mods suggested it be posted here.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:44 PM on March 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Engaging with Twitter is tacit support for fascism because it makes a fascist site more attractive to advertisers to show activity and the non fascist users provide a sheen of legitimacy.
this is entirely absurd.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:11 PM on March 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
this is entirely absurd.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:11 PM on March 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yeah, I am not the brightest bulb and thought that it was appropriate for AskMe because the scope of the question was narrow: did Elon Musk's embrace of racism make you leave, and why or why not? But I guess narrowness is not really the name of the AskMe game, which I should know since I've been posting there for like 15 years. Honestly if I'd given it just a little bit more thought before trotting it out, I would've realized: chatfilter.
Anyway, I contacted the mods to see if there was something I could do to make the question less chatfilter, and they charitably suggested that it was appropriate for MeTa since it was just seeking general feedback from the MeFi community.
But anyway, I kinda liked seeing it here? (Other than the typo I left in it.) My next MeTa will be, "Can we change MeTa so that its explicit purpose is chatfilter?" I kid. Sort of. But it is fun to see a non-Cocktail Hour MeTa where almost 100 responses came in before modding came up. And I did get a lot of the perspective I was seeking, from people who think staying is good and people who think staying is bad!
posted by kensington314 at 4:16 PM on March 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
Anyway, I contacted the mods to see if there was something I could do to make the question less chatfilter, and they charitably suggested that it was appropriate for MeTa since it was just seeking general feedback from the MeFi community.
But anyway, I kinda liked seeing it here? (Other than the typo I left in it.) My next MeTa will be, "Can we change MeTa so that its explicit purpose is chatfilter?" I kid. Sort of. But it is fun to see a non-Cocktail Hour MeTa where almost 100 responses came in before modding came up. And I did get a lot of the perspective I was seeking, from people who think staying is good and people who think staying is bad!
posted by kensington314 at 4:16 PM on March 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
I admit I did think of an addition to yours after yesterday: Does Elon's shitty treatment of a disabled Icelandic hero/fired employee change anyone's opinion of staying on Twitter? But....yeah, right?
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:28 PM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:28 PM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
perhaps "entirely absurd" overplays it, but then so does slapping the "fascist" label on Twitter as if that's a given. I don't think it is. Can't say I've been studying it that closely (I mentioned above I've never had an active account) but my gut tells me no. Something that big, with that many players working so many interests and concerns and positions deflecting and reflecting and refracting off each other in all manner of complex ways -- it's just not that black and white.
posted by philip-random at 5:56 PM on March 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 5:56 PM on March 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why?
your contention is outlandish enough that I feel comfortable leaving the onus to demonstrate its plausibility on you
posted by Sebmojo at 6:10 PM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
your contention is outlandish enough that I feel comfortable leaving the onus to demonstrate its plausibility on you
posted by Sebmojo at 6:10 PM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are currently four FPPs on the blue featuring Twitter links. I sure hope someone drops into those threads immediately to make sure the OPs know they’re supporting fascism.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:13 PM on March 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 6:13 PM on March 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm one of those people whose posts on the front page include a twitter link; it's to New Order's official twitter account. I'll have a go at responding.
I no longer have a twitter account, since I dislike the place, for all the reasons others have described above, but it remains one of those institutions that really can't be avoided for some things (since it retains so many official sources, and semi-official ones such as band accounts). It really does retain a spectrum of people and views, a good deal more diverse than, let's say, the entire news media in my country, dominated by the Murdoch press, which is similarly unavoidable. Even if it's accurate to describe Elon Musk as fascist, it's always been the case that the corporation bearing the name Twitter and the social network on which people tweet are slightly different places, different and distinguishable. Some links are just to a band's account.
As it happens New Order, and their predecessor Joy Division, were criticised—at the time—for their post-punk aesthetic which leaned toward known fascist tropes: they were clean-cut, aggressive, intense, white, young, their music was repetitive, drum-based, energetic, and then there were the band names themselves! But you know what? Their music is good, and is distinguishable from the shirts-and-ties aesthetic.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:48 PM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
I no longer have a twitter account, since I dislike the place, for all the reasons others have described above, but it remains one of those institutions that really can't be avoided for some things (since it retains so many official sources, and semi-official ones such as band accounts). It really does retain a spectrum of people and views, a good deal more diverse than, let's say, the entire news media in my country, dominated by the Murdoch press, which is similarly unavoidable. Even if it's accurate to describe Elon Musk as fascist, it's always been the case that the corporation bearing the name Twitter and the social network on which people tweet are slightly different places, different and distinguishable. Some links are just to a band's account.
As it happens New Order, and their predecessor Joy Division, were criticised—at the time—for their post-punk aesthetic which leaned toward known fascist tropes: they were clean-cut, aggressive, intense, white, young, their music was repetitive, drum-based, energetic, and then there were the band names themselves! But you know what? Their music is good, and is distinguishable from the shirts-and-ties aesthetic.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:48 PM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
I do not think there is consensus that Twitter is a fascist site, even though it is run by someone who is rapidly taking on fascist ideas, so the calculation is different than it would be for embracing e.g. Gab as a platform. A lot of mainstream media already know Twitter as a "town square" and their feeds would have a lot of small-l liberals on it; you'd have to convince them that a) all the non-fascists have left, such that anyone they're seeing on there is not representative of the movement, b) the platform is elevating fascist voices and trying to put its thumb on the scale to distort conversation (more than Twitter already did in favour of the hot take), c) by prioritising Twitter over other platforms, they're missing the real story.
a) has clearly not happened, although the technical issues cropping up will definitely help; consensus is that everyone still on Twitter feels they have nowhere else to go; b) is solidly achievable; c) is only achievable if actual important stuff happens on other platforms, and as far as I can tell, it's not. (Tumblr regularly has cool stuff happen on the platform now, but inventing a movie out of whole cloth is not politically relevant.)
Anyway: I was already scaling back my Twitter usage after realising that it was making me miserable rather than informed, was prepared to quit the platform when Musk said he'd take over, and then the platform reminded me of my 11th anniversary on Twitter, which gave me cause to reflect on whether I valued it at all or whether I was just addicted to the dopamine hits. I deleted my account 11 days afterwards.
posted by Merus at 8:00 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
a) has clearly not happened, although the technical issues cropping up will definitely help; consensus is that everyone still on Twitter feels they have nowhere else to go; b) is solidly achievable; c) is only achievable if actual important stuff happens on other platforms, and as far as I can tell, it's not. (Tumblr regularly has cool stuff happen on the platform now, but inventing a movie out of whole cloth is not politically relevant.)
Anyway: I was already scaling back my Twitter usage after realising that it was making me miserable rather than informed, was prepared to quit the platform when Musk said he'd take over, and then the platform reminded me of my 11th anniversary on Twitter, which gave me cause to reflect on whether I valued it at all or whether I was just addicted to the dopamine hits. I deleted my account 11 days afterwards.
posted by Merus at 8:00 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd love to use more Nitter links, but somehow the Nitter links won't load when I click on them a lot of the time, I assume Twitter is making them fail somehow (sigh).
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:20 PM on March 8, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:20 PM on March 8, 2023
Mod note: A few comments flagged for noise deleted. Please hit the brakes on the back-and-forth about Twitter. Thanks!
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:44 PM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:44 PM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I believe Musk, et lol, hope to to get all the chaos sorted out now so that Twitter will be an effective tool for the right in the campaign for the 2024 US elections, which may well determine the outcome of the war in Ukraine and fate of NATO — and consequently the trajectory of Western Europe — as well as the US presidency and the ideological composition of Congress.
If everyone who's disaffected leaves Twitter now, and that happens not to cause Twitter to fall in on itself, I think that could further Musk's larger ambitions, and would be very dangerous.
But leaving now and establishing viable alternatives could wound Twitter grievously enough to neutralize it in the campaign.
I don’t know how to balance those possibilities even for my own pitifully inconsequential approach to Twitter, much less well enough have a firm opinion about what everyone else should do.
posted by jamjam at 8:46 PM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
If everyone who's disaffected leaves Twitter now, and that happens not to cause Twitter to fall in on itself, I think that could further Musk's larger ambitions, and would be very dangerous.
But leaving now and establishing viable alternatives could wound Twitter grievously enough to neutralize it in the campaign.
I don’t know how to balance those possibilities even for my own pitifully inconsequential approach to Twitter, much less well enough have a firm opinion about what everyone else should do.
posted by jamjam at 8:46 PM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I knew Elon Musk was a dumbass well before he bought Twitter. I knew Twitter was a horrible influence on society well before Elon Musk bought it. And yet, I continue to use Twitter. The reality is, it's the only place I can get some of the stuff I get there, including stuff from people I consider friends, and real-time stuff that's too esoteric to exist anywhere outside a microblogging platform. Example: my high school made the state championship game in football last fall, but the game was only televised in my home state, where I no longer live. Twitter was the only way I could follow the game as it happened. I don't like using Twitter, and I really don't like how it essentially killed blogging, but it's a fact of life. I don't really like a lot of stuff that auto manufacturers do, either, but I still need to drive a car sometimes, as much as I wish I didn't. And just not driving a car in protest won't solve my problems, because the way modern American civilization is set up, you need to drive cars to do certain things. So I'm stuck.
So you're stuck on Twitter because American civilization has failed to televise your old high school's football games?
posted by ryanrs at 9:07 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
So you're stuck on Twitter because American civilization has failed to televise your old high school's football games?
posted by ryanrs at 9:07 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Elon Musk calls U.S. media and schools 'racist against whites & Asians'
Elon Brings One of America’s Most Prominent Nazis Back to Twitter
Elon Musk’s Growing Purge of His Twitter Critics — At the Behest of the Far Right
Here’s who Elon Musk likes to talk to on Twitter — including Catturd
Elon Musk defends racist tirade by Dilbert creator Scott Adams
Elon Musk Goes All In On Jan. 6 Denial
Elon Musk says Trump didn’t violate Twitter’s rules. The truth is more complicated
Elon Musk Is a Far-Right Activist
Elon Musk has put every lost young man on Twitter in the crosshairs of the far right
Extremists, Far Right Figures Exploit Recent Changes to Twitter
Elon Musk's 'amnesty' pledge brings back QAnon, far-right Twitter accounts
Elon Musk says his politics are in the center but extremism experts say he's using Twitter to increasingly empower right-wing viewpoints
If Elon Musk Really Doesn’t Want Twitter To Look “Right-Wing,” He’s Doing a Terrible Job
Twitter’s ex-safety chief says he got a ‘wave of homophobic and antisemitic threats’ and had to sell his home after the ‘Twitter files’
Musk boosts Twitter’s right-wing appeal with moderation changes, ‘Twitter Files’
Several left-wing activists had their Twitter accounts suspended after a false-report campaign by far-right users
Free speech “absolutist” Elon Musk personally ordered the Twitter suspension of left wing activist, report claims
posted by Artw at 9:57 PM on March 8, 2023 [17 favorites]
A few hours ago (in response to stuff in this thread), I did a quick google search on >Is Elon Musk a fascist?< just to see what popped up. Interestingly, what popped up is some of the stuff you just linked to.
For the record, I'm not suggesting the guy isn't a fascist. I suspect he's confused about it himself ... but whatever. If it quacks like a duck and all that.
But none of that's really the point. That's just him. He's not Twitter. As others have put it already, it's like your local newspaper (back when such things were relevant). The owner may have been a rich fuck asshole many times over but the classifieds were still relevant to your needs, as were the movie listings, some of the news and editorials.
In other words, you kind of needed to pick it up every now and then, or depend on others who had. Which goes back to the original question that sparked all this:
Will Musk's defense of Scott Adams make you leave?
Well I never signed on in the first place but I'm not pretending I don't occasionally lean on people who have. And I'm not going to accuse them of being fascists or fascist adjacent for continuing to give it some of their attention. Because I don't think it's that simple.
posted by philip-random at 10:24 PM on March 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
For the record, I'm not suggesting the guy isn't a fascist. I suspect he's confused about it himself ... but whatever. If it quacks like a duck and all that.
But none of that's really the point. That's just him. He's not Twitter. As others have put it already, it's like your local newspaper (back when such things were relevant). The owner may have been a rich fuck asshole many times over but the classifieds were still relevant to your needs, as were the movie listings, some of the news and editorials.
In other words, you kind of needed to pick it up every now and then, or depend on others who had. Which goes back to the original question that sparked all this:
Will Musk's defense of Scott Adams make you leave?
Well I never signed on in the first place but I'm not pretending I don't occasionally lean on people who have. And I'm not going to accuse them of being fascists or fascist adjacent for continuing to give it some of their attention. Because I don't think it's that simple.
posted by philip-random at 10:24 PM on March 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Elon Musk just brought an infamous neo-Nazi back to Twitter
Conspiracy theorists, homophobes, neo-Nazis: Ten accounts that embody Twitter's change under Musk
Twitter sees surge in Gen-Z neo-Nazi antisemitism since Musk takeover
Elon Musk has welcomed another neo-Nazi group back to Twitter
Opinion: Elon Musk’s Twitter is helping to normalize a neo-Nazi
Elon Musk’s Twitter welcomes back neo-Nazis
Elon Musk Is Turning Twitter Into a Haven for Nazis
Elon Musk Is a Right-Wing Culture Warrior Above All Else
How Elon Musk’s Twitter helped make far-right violence in Brazil possible
Elon Musk is now Twitter’s ‘extreme voice-in-chief’ as he flirts with far-right
The Redpilling of Elon Musk Isn’t Funny
Trump, Tate and the Taliban: Which controversial figures have the Twitter blue tick?
posted by Artw at 11:26 PM on March 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
Conspiracy theorists, homophobes, neo-Nazis: Ten accounts that embody Twitter's change under Musk
Twitter sees surge in Gen-Z neo-Nazi antisemitism since Musk takeover
Elon Musk has welcomed another neo-Nazi group back to Twitter
Opinion: Elon Musk’s Twitter is helping to normalize a neo-Nazi
Elon Musk’s Twitter welcomes back neo-Nazis
Elon Musk Is Turning Twitter Into a Haven for Nazis
Elon Musk Is a Right-Wing Culture Warrior Above All Else
How Elon Musk’s Twitter helped make far-right violence in Brazil possible
Elon Musk is now Twitter’s ‘extreme voice-in-chief’ as he flirts with far-right
The Redpilling of Elon Musk Isn’t Funny
Trump, Tate and the Taliban: Which controversial figures have the Twitter blue tick?
posted by Artw at 11:26 PM on March 8, 2023 [10 favorites]
jenfullmoon: somehow the Nitter links won't load when I click on them a lot of the time
I encounter that sometimes, too; a reload, or sometimes two, usually fixes it for me.
On a different note;
Artw, could you leave some oxygen in the room for others to use? You're being kind of in-your-face here and it's unpleasant. Yes, I know, facism is not pleasant either, but this is a friendly group discussion.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:39 PM on March 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
I encounter that sometimes, too; a reload, or sometimes two, usually fixes it for me.
On a different note;
Artw, could you leave some oxygen in the room for others to use? You're being kind of in-your-face here and it's unpleasant. Yes, I know, facism is not pleasant either, but this is a friendly group discussion.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:39 PM on March 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
Apologies, apparently I have some kind of onus to demonstrate plausibility and all my replies to that got deleted, so link dumps it is.
posted by Artw at 12:10 AM on March 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:10 AM on March 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
I still use Twitter occasionally, but less now that Musk is in charge. It's not an easy feeling to stay. Unfortunately, Mastodon is not a usable replacement for professional relationships I've established through this platform. Some form of it might be useful down the road, who knows.
As a rough parallel, Facebook is a dangerous company whose owner and upper management have used to literally help establish or prop up authoritarian, murderous dictatorships in exchange for hard cash and political influence.
Still, I probably wouldn't go as far as to call Facebook users with Metafilter accounts fascists-by-proxy — even the ones who have advocated for the company here because of the utility of WhatsApp or other Facebook properties. I don't think it would change many minds. I'm not sure it would help to do the same to Twitter users, either.
Anyway, Twitter can only survive for so long without paying the bills, and without having working HR and other departments, so my view is that Musk will probably tap out once he has to cash out too much Tesla equity or gets sued for burning too many employment laws, companies, and governments. It'll get sold back to investment banks that just want a reliable return on investment and have zero interest in pushing pro-Russia or pro-Nazi cartoonist ideologies.
I mean, not a few days ago he just violated the medical privacy rights of a former employee by publicly discussing that person's health status. Unless Musk has Trump's knack of staying ahead of the courts or figures out how to shut his mouth, that stuff is probably going to catch up with him in one form or another.
Otherwise, if Twitter is somehow still going and he is somehow still in charge, or if my Twitter feed is overrun by pro-Musk content algorithms, or once there are genuine alternatives, that would be a perfectly fine time to reevaluate how I spend that part of my free time.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:10 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
As a rough parallel, Facebook is a dangerous company whose owner and upper management have used to literally help establish or prop up authoritarian, murderous dictatorships in exchange for hard cash and political influence.
Still, I probably wouldn't go as far as to call Facebook users with Metafilter accounts fascists-by-proxy — even the ones who have advocated for the company here because of the utility of WhatsApp or other Facebook properties. I don't think it would change many minds. I'm not sure it would help to do the same to Twitter users, either.
Anyway, Twitter can only survive for so long without paying the bills, and without having working HR and other departments, so my view is that Musk will probably tap out once he has to cash out too much Tesla equity or gets sued for burning too many employment laws, companies, and governments. It'll get sold back to investment banks that just want a reliable return on investment and have zero interest in pushing pro-Russia or pro-Nazi cartoonist ideologies.
I mean, not a few days ago he just violated the medical privacy rights of a former employee by publicly discussing that person's health status. Unless Musk has Trump's knack of staying ahead of the courts or figures out how to shut his mouth, that stuff is probably going to catch up with him in one form or another.
Otherwise, if Twitter is somehow still going and he is somehow still in charge, or if my Twitter feed is overrun by pro-Musk content algorithms, or once there are genuine alternatives, that would be a perfectly fine time to reevaluate how I spend that part of my free time.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:10 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd like to see the people who are so adamant that Twitter is exactly like a Nazi bar and using Twitter equals having no problem hanging around with Nazis make that argument to the countless human rights organizations or charities or progressive political groups and leaders who use it daily, around the world, not just in the US. Even better, make that argument to the Ukrainian government and leaders who have been so skilled at using it since the start of the Russian invasion. I'd like to see how that discussion goes down
Personally I think Twitter, even before Musk, can be better compared to any public space where people can aggregate and usually in my part of the world when the far right holds a rally in a public space, the antifascists and progressive forces don't go "oh ok guess we'll stay home and let the Nazis run around town undisturbed" but they organize counter demonstrations and make more noise and gather more people and thus make a useful point of not ceding ground to the far right. Usually.
Yeah i know Twitter is private. I wish it weren't so. so yeah, it's not literally like a public square, but it's used by enough official entities and political representatives around the world to make that comparison much more suitable than a private business like a bar. IMHO.
posted by bitteschoen at 3:07 AM on March 9, 2023 [22 favorites]
Personally I think Twitter, even before Musk, can be better compared to any public space where people can aggregate and usually in my part of the world when the far right holds a rally in a public space, the antifascists and progressive forces don't go "oh ok guess we'll stay home and let the Nazis run around town undisturbed" but they organize counter demonstrations and make more noise and gather more people and thus make a useful point of not ceding ground to the far right. Usually.
Yeah i know Twitter is private. I wish it weren't so. so yeah, it's not literally like a public square, but it's used by enough official entities and political representatives around the world to make that comparison much more suitable than a private business like a bar. IMHO.
posted by bitteschoen at 3:07 AM on March 9, 2023 [22 favorites]
ftr I'm not on twitter and never was except for one time I made an account just to see what all the fuss was about but never logged back in since. I could go on about how my rigid ideology has provided me with the True Way to deal with all of this but the truth is that I never much cared about twitter, and always find it annoying when news articles quoted shit from twitter. If I cared about twitter, I'd be using it already - you're not doing me a favor by anchoring your news article around various tweets.
So to answer the OP question: I won't be using twitter any more than usual, which is to say: only when I'm (essentially) forced to see it on other platforms. I suppose that's my privilege showing - as noted somewhere above, some people really don't have a choice, or at least feel like they don't. It would probably be rude and/or stupid of me to judge them for continuing to use the platform despite the politics of its new owner.
posted by some loser at 3:33 AM on March 9, 2023
So to answer the OP question: I won't be using twitter any more than usual, which is to say: only when I'm (essentially) forced to see it on other platforms. I suppose that's my privilege showing - as noted somewhere above, some people really don't have a choice, or at least feel like they don't. It would probably be rude and/or stupid of me to judge them for continuing to use the platform despite the politics of its new owner.
posted by some loser at 3:33 AM on March 9, 2023
I think Twitter was a mistake from the beginning. A privately owned space that is crucial to public, political conversations should never have been run by some random entity. The question was never whether it was right to ban Trump or not but that someone not elected (Dorsey, Musk) should even have the power to make that decision.
So, in that sense, I think Twitter was valuable in showing the power of such a platform but the best thing is that this conversation moves elsewhere. I'm encouraged by public entities like the EU or Germany setting up their own Mastodon instances. I left Twitter and although I understand why people might stay, I think its ultimately futile.
posted by vacapinta at 3:53 AM on March 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
So, in that sense, I think Twitter was valuable in showing the power of such a platform but the best thing is that this conversation moves elsewhere. I'm encouraged by public entities like the EU or Germany setting up their own Mastodon instances. I left Twitter and although I understand why people might stay, I think its ultimately futile.
posted by vacapinta at 3:53 AM on March 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
huffy and self righteous
pot, kettle
a vast number of non-fascist and anti-fascist people are still on twitter and still finding it valuable, and i doubt they're all idiots or closet fascists.
fulminating about how they're supporting! fascism! comes across as mistaking one's personal feelings of intense disgust (at musk and his ilk) for some sort of indicator of universal moral truth that everyone else is bound to follow.
which is ironic, because i'm pretty sure that's what fascists do.
posted by inire at 4:02 AM on March 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
pot, kettle
a vast number of non-fascist and anti-fascist people are still on twitter and still finding it valuable, and i doubt they're all idiots or closet fascists.
fulminating about how they're supporting! fascism! comes across as mistaking one's personal feelings of intense disgust (at musk and his ilk) for some sort of indicator of universal moral truth that everyone else is bound to follow.
which is ironic, because i'm pretty sure that's what fascists do.
posted by inire at 4:02 AM on March 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think as consumers (note not - citizens, etc.) we’ve been trained that boycotting is a powerful tool. But there would be other ways, like protesting and voting for regulation, acquiring things as public assets/works, etc.
I do think Twitter and other social media are powerful forces, especially when used as a way to mobilize other steps. I find the emphasis on leaving it as a moral position suspect, because fragmenting people’s abilities to mobilize in large numbers across the world, especially at a time that there are really urgent changes required to both mitigate and adapt to climate change, seems to serve corporate and yes, fascist interests.
I think by and large companies have learned they can weather boycotts, and then the people with the energy to care/effect change feel “done” and so the wave passes without regulatory action. Mastodon seems to me admirable in its commitment to distributed work but also a weakness that way. Elon Musk is a master of attention-getting. So I’m not making any fast changes based on his latest PR efforts.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:57 AM on March 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I do think Twitter and other social media are powerful forces, especially when used as a way to mobilize other steps. I find the emphasis on leaving it as a moral position suspect, because fragmenting people’s abilities to mobilize in large numbers across the world, especially at a time that there are really urgent changes required to both mitigate and adapt to climate change, seems to serve corporate and yes, fascist interests.
I think by and large companies have learned they can weather boycotts, and then the people with the energy to care/effect change feel “done” and so the wave passes without regulatory action. Mastodon seems to me admirable in its commitment to distributed work but also a weakness that way. Elon Musk is a master of attention-getting. So I’m not making any fast changes based on his latest PR efforts.
posted by warriorqueen at 4:57 AM on March 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't use twitter or facebook or tiktok because i believe there's harm in using them, but I also know that a lot of people do use them because they get some kind of value there that is important to them.
I have chosen to accept that, albeit somewhat bitterly, and get on with helping to make alternative community spaces more viable with my own presence and posts.
Further hassling the people who still use them, some of whom are my friends, would not serve to dissuade them from using these sites, it would just alienate me from their kind graces. I have to pick my battles carefully.
Shouting, repeatedly, at friends/family/acquaintances is probably not going have the desired effect.. You just get tuned out after a while, and then you get shunned. Is that the hill you want to die on, or do you want to spend your energy in other ways?
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:57 AM on March 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
I have chosen to accept that, albeit somewhat bitterly, and get on with helping to make alternative community spaces more viable with my own presence and posts.
Further hassling the people who still use them, some of whom are my friends, would not serve to dissuade them from using these sites, it would just alienate me from their kind graces. I have to pick my battles carefully.
Shouting, repeatedly, at friends/family/acquaintances is probably not going have the desired effect.. You just get tuned out after a while, and then you get shunned. Is that the hill you want to die on, or do you want to spend your energy in other ways?
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:57 AM on March 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
Not a fascist. Just sitting on the deck listening to the orchestra while the ship goes down.
posted by Fizz at 5:17 AM on March 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 5:17 AM on March 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
The "Twitter is a Nazi Bar" comparison is galling when you consider the significance of Black Twitter (and how when they tried to migrate to Mastodon they still found it a pretty hostile place) and how accessible Twitter has been for people outside North America. Hell I've had to deal with Nazi types here and on Mastodon, and those were more direct threats to me than anything Elon Musk could throw at me.
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:02 AM on March 9, 2023 [31 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 6:02 AM on March 9, 2023 [31 favorites]
The "Twitter is a Nazi Bar" comparison is galling
Yup. And Middle East twitter (I follow a TON of friend and colleagues and people 'on the ground', so to speak), not to mention Human Rights twitter (same—loads of organizations, and many who are very progressive and indeed, anti-fascist).
posted by Ahmad Khani at 6:34 AM on March 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
Yup. And Middle East twitter (I follow a TON of friend and colleagues and people 'on the ground', so to speak), not to mention Human Rights twitter (same—loads of organizations, and many who are very progressive and indeed, anti-fascist).
posted by Ahmad Khani at 6:34 AM on March 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
Shouting, repeatedly, at friends/family/acquaintances is probably not going have the desired effect.. You just get tuned out after a while, and then you get shunned. Is that the hill you want to die on, or do you want to spend your energy in other ways?
Seriously. I'd already quit Twitter before Musk took over, for other reasons, but an impish part of me is tempted to sign up again out of defiance.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:41 AM on March 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Seriously. I'd already quit Twitter before Musk took over, for other reasons, but an impish part of me is tempted to sign up again out of defiance.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:41 AM on March 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Musk himself is, if not fascist, at least proto-fascist or otherwise on that path. But that doesn't make Twitter itself a fascist instrument. It might get that way eventually, though I doubt it because they are already hitting regulatory pushback and that would only get more intense, but it isn't that way now.
My discomfort with continuing to use Twitter even as minimally as I do (never posting, just reading) is that even in a small way, that is benefiting Musk's investment, which I dislike doing because he is such a terrible person. But right now, there is content there (from non-fascists, some of whom are literally fighting fascists) that isn't available elsewhere, so I'm staying for now.
I really hope that either one major issue (like US or EU regulatory action), or a conglomeration of smaller things (like lots of individual and class action lawsuits) puts the nail in the coffin of Musk's personal involvement and the company can go back to operating in a more or less normal fashion.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:45 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
My discomfort with continuing to use Twitter even as minimally as I do (never posting, just reading) is that even in a small way, that is benefiting Musk's investment, which I dislike doing because he is such a terrible person. But right now, there is content there (from non-fascists, some of whom are literally fighting fascists) that isn't available elsewhere, so I'm staying for now.
I really hope that either one major issue (like US or EU regulatory action), or a conglomeration of smaller things (like lots of individual and class action lawsuits) puts the nail in the coffin of Musk's personal involvement and the company can go back to operating in a more or less normal fashion.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:45 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Giving clicks and attention to Twitter helping sustain it absolutely isn’t a thing that requires BEING a fasicst, FIWIW. Adverting metrics just care about impressions and usage, it can’t see into your heart. As a propaganda and sentiment directing machine it’d be useless if it was just people who were onside already. There’s a reason that before the nazis got restored they didn’t just happily hang out on Gab or Parler.
posted by Artw at 7:12 AM on March 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:12 AM on March 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Artw - please trust that you have made your point abundantly clear. You can stand down and let other people speak now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:18 AM on March 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:18 AM on March 9, 2023 [14 favorites]
When I was in university I used to avoid this guy who was born again. Then one day he sat with me in the cafeteria and I told him I wasn’t interested in proselytizing. He thanked me for being honest with him and said something that has stuck with me for near 40 years. “I could have the best tasting cake in the world but if I try to shove it down your throat you are going to choke on it.”
I can only hope that people leave Twitter and find a new online home — in addition to this one — where they feel welcome and heard. For me that has been mastodon which feels like early days or blogging and IRC.
I am also welcome anyone who is unsure about mastodon to private message me if they have any questions. But if the first question is which server/instance the answer is mefi.social.
The cake isn’t a lie ;)
posted by terrapin at 7:39 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can only hope that people leave Twitter and find a new online home — in addition to this one — where they feel welcome and heard. For me that has been mastodon which feels like early days or blogging and IRC.
I am also welcome anyone who is unsure about mastodon to private message me if they have any questions. But if the first question is which server/instance the answer is mefi.social.
The cake isn’t a lie ;)
posted by terrapin at 7:39 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Out of curiosity: y'all hardliners insisting that using a platform owned by a fascist is necessarily a fascist act: do you pull this same act on your friends who drive Volkswagens or buy tickets to the Patrolman's Union pancake breakfast? Because it's the same level of abstract "support", and I don't think you'd get a lot of support for any of the above. I get the intention, but this doesn't feel like a constructive outlet for anti-fascist anger. This whole thread has the same energy as standing next to the line for the mall Santa shouting "Charlatan! LOATHSOME DECEIVER!"
posted by Mayor West at 7:44 AM on March 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Mayor West at 7:44 AM on March 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
Those are two very interesting examples because yes, i absolutely avoid the Patrolman Union's pancake breakfast because ACAB, but VW's sins most recently have to do with their shenanigans around emissions, not so much fascism, so I avoid them for that reason.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for individuals to choose their comfort level of disengagement with fascism where they see it.
For twitter, which I barely used before i quit, I think it walks like a duck and talks like a duck so probably is...a...
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:03 AM on March 9, 2023
I think it's perfectly reasonable for individuals to choose their comfort level of disengagement with fascism where they see it.
For twitter, which I barely used before i quit, I think it walks like a duck and talks like a duck so probably is...a...
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:03 AM on March 9, 2023
Can't see how my reading Twitter with an ad blocker enabled makes Twitter any money.
I'm just hoping the stupid truck turns out to be vaporware
That's not a truck. This is a truck.
posted by flabdablet at 8:05 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm just hoping the stupid truck turns out to be vaporware
That's not a truck. This is a truck.
posted by flabdablet at 8:05 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
but VW's sins most recently have to do with their shenanigans around emissions, not so much fascism.....
The company was backed by Adolf Hitler when it was starting up. I think this is what the "fascism" reference was about.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:09 AM on March 9, 2023
The company was backed by Adolf Hitler when it was starting up. I think this is what the "fascism" reference was about.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:09 AM on March 9, 2023
Pretty sure he’s dead.
posted by Artw at 8:12 AM on March 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:12 AM on March 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Metafilter is a predominantly white space*, so of course it's comfortable for members to call other folks fascists or fascist-adjacent for still using Twitter. Do the same people reach out to Black Twitter/Ukraine citizens/any minority group or activist group who utilize the platform for organization or work? Because if they aren't, it's very interesting. As I said above, aside from occasionally checking the #ygk hashtag, I don't use it anymore, but I can't imagine popping into Feminista Jones' timeline and accusing her of fascism for still being on Twitter.
(*my opinion, though I know we have non-white members; their voices don't seem to be heard as much)
posted by Kitteh at 8:31 AM on March 9, 2023 [15 favorites]
(*my opinion, though I know we have non-white members; their voices don't seem to be heard as much)
posted by Kitteh at 8:31 AM on March 9, 2023 [15 favorites]
Kitteh, I have similar feelings. I follow many authors, agents, editors, and writing communities on Twitter. When the dirigible caught fire, the outpouring of grief from people who would almost certainly never had any meaningful access to a writing life without Twitter was so powerful. In particular, there were many threads from Black and disabled writers about the importance of Twitter as a counterspace to systems they were locked out of (academia; functionally white-only publications; career-building events too expensive or dangerous to attend). No other platform or tool could do it for them. Those stories, and various stories and news I still get on Twitter, are more important to me than the complaints of those who hate Twitter. I'd also extend that to what I've heard from trans friends and colleagues who have found Twitter valuable, some of whom continue to do so. I do not speak for anyone other than myself, but I damn well do listen.
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:41 AM on March 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:41 AM on March 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
of course it's comfortable for members to call other folks fascists
I think it's worth pointing out that this is mainly just a couple/few people, and is NOT the position of most members. There has also been a lot of pushback against this position in this thread and others.
This is not meant as an attack on your comment at all, Kitteh. But I do think it's worth mentioning that a couple people don't speak for this site or its membership. I am sure you're right that this is a predominantly white space but with just a few exceptions, I don't know how most members identify their race or other status.
posted by Glinn at 8:50 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think it's worth pointing out that this is mainly just a couple/few people, and is NOT the position of most members. There has also been a lot of pushback against this position in this thread and others.
This is not meant as an attack on your comment at all, Kitteh. But I do think it's worth mentioning that a couple people don't speak for this site or its membership. I am sure you're right that this is a predominantly white space but with just a few exceptions, I don't know how most members identify their race or other status.
posted by Glinn at 8:50 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not leaving - I'm sticking with my friends, my muses and my teachers and going down with the ship.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:55 AM on March 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:55 AM on March 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
for the record, though I disagree with his conclusion (everybody needs to quit Twitter yesterday, because fascism), I'm somewhat thankful to Artw for some of the info he's dumped as some of it is actually news to me. Not that Elon's a dangerous fool. I already knew that, there being few individuals more dangerous than the mega rich, mega powerful, mega famous kind. It's more in the details, all the varying angles of reportage and opinion. It does add up to the sobering realization that the wrong fucking guy is flying the plane.
How do we not just get ourselves off said plane but also all of our loved ones, and all of their loved ones? And if such is not possible -- how do we get that fool out of the cockpit?
posted by philip-random at 9:11 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
How do we not just get ourselves off said plane but also all of our loved ones, and all of their loved ones? And if such is not possible -- how do we get that fool out of the cockpit?
posted by philip-random at 9:11 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Can't see how my reading Twitter with an ad blocker enabled makes Twitter any money.
Network effects. Twitter is more valuable the more users who participate even if the platform can't serve them all ads.
posted by Mitheral at 9:15 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Network effects. Twitter is more valuable the more users who participate even if the platform can't serve them all ads.
posted by Mitheral at 9:15 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
How do we not just get ourselves off said plane but also all of our loved ones, and all of their loved ones?
One way would be to subject twitter users to social stigma, as is being done in this thread.
posted by ryanrs at 9:16 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
One way would be to subject twitter users to social stigma, as is being done in this thread.
posted by ryanrs at 9:16 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I self-flagged an earlier comment, because I was too obnoxious. I'mma dial it back.
Artw: I brought up the 1930s connection between Volkswagen and Hitler, and I have to admit I was a bit surprised to see you brush that off with "pretty sure he's dead" - because if I understand you correctly, the actions of the people behind a given corporate entity should be considered to be part of that entity and its philosophy. So I'm not certain why this would be different, to your mind.
Note that I'm probably agreeing with you about how Volkswagen shouldn't be pilloried for that part of its history, but I think I have come to that conclusion for somewhat different reasons; just curious about yours, since it strikes me there's a disconnect between that and what you've been saying about Musk and Twitter.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:19 AM on March 9, 2023
Artw: I brought up the 1930s connection between Volkswagen and Hitler, and I have to admit I was a bit surprised to see you brush that off with "pretty sure he's dead" - because if I understand you correctly, the actions of the people behind a given corporate entity should be considered to be part of that entity and its philosophy. So I'm not certain why this would be different, to your mind.
Note that I'm probably agreeing with you about how Volkswagen shouldn't be pilloried for that part of its history, but I think I have come to that conclusion for somewhat different reasons; just curious about yours, since it strikes me there's a disconnect between that and what you've been saying about Musk and Twitter.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:19 AM on March 9, 2023
Can't see how my reading Twitter with an ad blocker enabled makes Twitter any money.
Twitter sells ads not on conversion but on a metric it calls mDAU: "monetizable daily active users." That link quotes Twitter's definition of this (invented) metric for engagement:
Advertisers largely avoid sites that primarily cater to racists, fascists, Nazis, and so on. To the extent advertiser-acceptable content still exists on Twitter, Twitter may still be able to sell ads. By continuing to provide advertiser-acceptable content on Twitter, people and organizations that continue to use it (despite its increasing shift towards all those horrible things) are providing Twitter with cover and plausible deniability that it can use to sell more ads, even as it reinstates actual Nazis and deactivates the accounts of journalists.
I'm not going to stigmatize people who continue to use Twitter, but I do wish people would pay more attention to what's going on instead of relying on arguments about how it's not a problem for them because [fill in the blank]. Twitter is already living on borrowed time, not making anywhere near enough revenue to cover the debts from Elon's leveraged buyout. It's not paying its bills. It's running increasingly afoul of regulators in the EU and perhaps even in the US. Thanks to Elon's purge of employees there aren't a whole lot of people left who even know how the site works, and the ones who are still there have broken the site in major ways six times this calendar year, in an attempt to rebuild the site according to Elon's whims. If I depended on Twitter I'd be looking for a replacement with fewer warning signs and not just burying my head in the sand.
posted by fedward at 9:24 AM on March 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
Twitter sells ads not on conversion but on a metric it calls mDAU: "monetizable daily active users." That link quotes Twitter's definition of this (invented) metric for engagement:
Twitter defines mDAU as “users who logged in or were otherwise authenticated and accessed Twitter on any given day through Twitter.com or Twitter applications that are able to show ads.”Even if you have an ad blocker, by interacting with the site you become an mDAU, arming Twitter with a number they can use to sell ads and pay their bills (or not, as the case currently seems to be). Also [GIF of guy tapping his forehead] by killing off all the third party clients that didn't show ads, Twitter juiced its mDAU numbers by whatever number of people switched to the web site or official client instead of just walking away when Tweetbot or Twitteriffic or whatever other favored client (that Twitter couldn't monetize) stopped working. It doesn't matter if you're personally blocking all the ads or marking the ones you see as offensive or whatever; by engaging with the site at all you're giving Twitter the raw material it converts to ad sales and thus revenue that props the site up.
Advertisers largely avoid sites that primarily cater to racists, fascists, Nazis, and so on. To the extent advertiser-acceptable content still exists on Twitter, Twitter may still be able to sell ads. By continuing to provide advertiser-acceptable content on Twitter, people and organizations that continue to use it (despite its increasing shift towards all those horrible things) are providing Twitter with cover and plausible deniability that it can use to sell more ads, even as it reinstates actual Nazis and deactivates the accounts of journalists.
I'm not going to stigmatize people who continue to use Twitter, but I do wish people would pay more attention to what's going on instead of relying on arguments about how it's not a problem for them because [fill in the blank]. Twitter is already living on borrowed time, not making anywhere near enough revenue to cover the debts from Elon's leveraged buyout. It's not paying its bills. It's running increasingly afoul of regulators in the EU and perhaps even in the US. Thanks to Elon's purge of employees there aren't a whole lot of people left who even know how the site works, and the ones who are still there have broken the site in major ways six times this calendar year, in an attempt to rebuild the site according to Elon's whims. If I depended on Twitter I'd be looking for a replacement with fewer warning signs and not just burying my head in the sand.
posted by fedward at 9:24 AM on March 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
How do we not just get ourselves off said plane but also all of our loved ones, and all of their loved ones? And if such is not possible -- how do we get that fool out of the cockpit?
Make it easier to offramp. Per above -- listen to the structural, cultural, UX, racism, sexism, etc. issues with things seeking to be alternatives. And clear those out. Avoid falling into the mental trap of "But it's *important*, so they should just get over those barriers!".
"They should just" undermines any kind of organizational effort & actively impedes understanding. Do you want to be effective, or do you want to be the most scrupulously correct?
posted by CrystalDave at 9:29 AM on March 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Make it easier to offramp. Per above -- listen to the structural, cultural, UX, racism, sexism, etc. issues with things seeking to be alternatives. And clear those out. Avoid falling into the mental trap of "But it's *important*, so they should just get over those barriers!".
"They should just" undermines any kind of organizational effort & actively impedes understanding. Do you want to be effective, or do you want to be the most scrupulously correct?
posted by CrystalDave at 9:29 AM on March 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Note that I'm probably agreeing with you about how Volkswagen shouldn't be pilloried for that part of its history, but I think I have come to that conclusion for somewhat different reasons; just curious about yours, since it strikes me there's a disconnect between that and what you've been saying about Musk and Twitter.
Volkswagen simply isn’t a focus for me because Volkswagen is not an active threat RIGHT NOW.
posted by Artw at 9:34 AM on March 9, 2023
Volkswagen simply isn’t a focus for me because Volkswagen is not an active threat RIGHT NOW.
posted by Artw at 9:34 AM on March 9, 2023
Make it easier to offramp. Per above -- listen to the structural, cultural, UX, racism, sexism, etc. issues with things seeking to be alternatives. And clear those out. Avoid falling into the mental trap of "But it's *important*, so they should just get over those barriers!".
This. I notice every time MeFi has a Twitter thread and folks bring up the usefulness of it for marginalized communities and/or currently wartorn countries, the anti-Twitter folks just glide right over it because they do not have a solution. All they have is vitriol. I have yet to see any of them offer a constructive solution to those communities. As I said, it's easier to pillory your fellow users than be part of the solution for those whom Twitter is still a tool for their organizing or dissemination. And I'm not saying I have a solution either. I am saying that if you aren't addressing how to help those communities to remove Twitter from their toolbox directly, all you are doing is beating your chest and proclaiming your purity.
posted by Kitteh at 9:39 AM on March 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
This. I notice every time MeFi has a Twitter thread and folks bring up the usefulness of it for marginalized communities and/or currently wartorn countries, the anti-Twitter folks just glide right over it because they do not have a solution. All they have is vitriol. I have yet to see any of them offer a constructive solution to those communities. As I said, it's easier to pillory your fellow users than be part of the solution for those whom Twitter is still a tool for their organizing or dissemination. And I'm not saying I have a solution either. I am saying that if you aren't addressing how to help those communities to remove Twitter from their toolbox directly, all you are doing is beating your chest and proclaiming your purity.
posted by Kitteh at 9:39 AM on March 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
I have yet to see any of them offer a constructive solution to those communities.
Why isn't it each group's own responsibility to find the best solution for the group? There's no one size solution that fits every group of users that leaves (or should consider leaving) Twitter. For some of them (say, companies and large nonprofits) where the need is largely for broadcast and maybe for certain, limited types of feedback it might be Facebook. For some groups the solution might just be something like Slack or Discord or a Subreddit. For some groups where they're organizing against a hostile government, Twitter has always been a bad solution, because Twitter DMs are unencrypted and subject to subpoena. People with that sort of need should have been using encrypted messaging for everything but public outreach, and that's an even worse onboarding problem than just saying "pick a Mastodon instance" is.
But for many of the users or groups who should be leaving Twitter, the answer is indeed one of "just pick a Mastodon instance" or "create your own Mastodon instance." If you're an organization with a tech budget, maintaining an instance would be new expense and technical debt, but maybe it's a debt worth having so you truly control your own messaging. And if you're a community group, a small to medium sized hosted instance could really hit the spot if enough users can support it financially, and it might take fewer contributing users than people think. It has real costs in time and social capital and I'd argue those costs are worse than the financial costs, but again they may be worth paying.
What's not productive in the long term is a community failing to take responsibility for its own platform choices and then finding itself without a platform at all. That sure seems like the likely result of reliance on Twitter at this point. The best time to find a replacement for Twitter was October 2022 when the writing was already on the wall; the second best time is now. The worst time to find a replacement will be after it has failed, when it's too late to use Twitter to tell people where to go next.
posted by fedward at 10:30 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Why isn't it each group's own responsibility to find the best solution for the group? There's no one size solution that fits every group of users that leaves (or should consider leaving) Twitter. For some of them (say, companies and large nonprofits) where the need is largely for broadcast and maybe for certain, limited types of feedback it might be Facebook. For some groups the solution might just be something like Slack or Discord or a Subreddit. For some groups where they're organizing against a hostile government, Twitter has always been a bad solution, because Twitter DMs are unencrypted and subject to subpoena. People with that sort of need should have been using encrypted messaging for everything but public outreach, and that's an even worse onboarding problem than just saying "pick a Mastodon instance" is.
But for many of the users or groups who should be leaving Twitter, the answer is indeed one of "just pick a Mastodon instance" or "create your own Mastodon instance." If you're an organization with a tech budget, maintaining an instance would be new expense and technical debt, but maybe it's a debt worth having so you truly control your own messaging. And if you're a community group, a small to medium sized hosted instance could really hit the spot if enough users can support it financially, and it might take fewer contributing users than people think. It has real costs in time and social capital and I'd argue those costs are worse than the financial costs, but again they may be worth paying.
What's not productive in the long term is a community failing to take responsibility for its own platform choices and then finding itself without a platform at all. That sure seems like the likely result of reliance on Twitter at this point. The best time to find a replacement for Twitter was October 2022 when the writing was already on the wall; the second best time is now. The worst time to find a replacement will be after it has failed, when it's too late to use Twitter to tell people where to go next.
posted by fedward at 10:30 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Why isn't it each group's own responsibility to find the best solution for the group?
Because they're the ones with barriers-to-entry and you're the one that feels most strongly that they should move, but you're putting the "real costs in time & social capital (and expense and technical debt)" on them.
"This is important, and you should do a lot of work to fix it, and why are you not leaping to action??"
If a hurricane is coming, saying "You should've prepared!" isn't helpful. Saying "You should evacuate! If you don't, you're failing to take responsibility" isn't helpful either. Finding out "Oh hey, people aren't evacuating because it's expensive & they're already living paycheck-to-paycheck & who's going to pay for lost wages if they call out?", and then raising funds? That's what you might do if your goal/metric of success is "# of people evacuated" & not "had all the right answers".
posted by CrystalDave at 10:50 AM on March 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
Because they're the ones with barriers-to-entry and you're the one that feels most strongly that they should move, but you're putting the "real costs in time & social capital (and expense and technical debt)" on them.
"This is important, and you should do a lot of work to fix it, and why are you not leaping to action??"
If a hurricane is coming, saying "You should've prepared!" isn't helpful. Saying "You should evacuate! If you don't, you're failing to take responsibility" isn't helpful either. Finding out "Oh hey, people aren't evacuating because it's expensive & they're already living paycheck-to-paycheck & who's going to pay for lost wages if they call out?", and then raising funds? That's what you might do if your goal/metric of success is "# of people evacuated" & not "had all the right answers".
posted by CrystalDave at 10:50 AM on March 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
Soylent Twitter may be made of people but Soy Twitter is all vegan.
posted by y2karl at 10:51 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 10:51 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Because they're the ones with barriers-to-entry and you're the one that feels most strongly that they should move, but you're putting the "real costs in time & social capital (and expense and technical debt)" on them.
"This is important, and you should do a lot of work to fix it, and why are you not leaping to action??"
Again, my personal perspective is that if Twitter is mission critical for a person or group they should be finding a replacement, not that it's any skin off my nose if they don't. I think that fairly leaves me without any onus to suggest solutions, especially since I'm not part of those communities and they're not paying me to do that work for them. That said, I did list a bunch of potential solutions in the comment to which you replied, although I also admitted that I can't know which solution is the best for any given person or group. And I still can't. I can't pay somebody else's bills either. I have to work hard just to pay my own bills and prepare my own escape plan.
And maybe it's fair to call that perspective frustrating. I'm not part of the solution, therefore I must be part of the noise. But from where I stand, an organization that takes its own needs into its own hands is better equipped to find and manage the right solution than I would be, as a stranger on the internet.
posted by fedward at 11:37 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
"This is important, and you should do a lot of work to fix it, and why are you not leaping to action??"
Again, my personal perspective is that if Twitter is mission critical for a person or group they should be finding a replacement, not that it's any skin off my nose if they don't. I think that fairly leaves me without any onus to suggest solutions, especially since I'm not part of those communities and they're not paying me to do that work for them. That said, I did list a bunch of potential solutions in the comment to which you replied, although I also admitted that I can't know which solution is the best for any given person or group. And I still can't. I can't pay somebody else's bills either. I have to work hard just to pay my own bills and prepare my own escape plan.
And maybe it's fair to call that perspective frustrating. I'm not part of the solution, therefore I must be part of the noise. But from where I stand, an organization that takes its own needs into its own hands is better equipped to find and manage the right solution than I would be, as a stranger on the internet.
posted by fedward at 11:37 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I signed up for Twitter in 2007, after reading the many comments about it in the SXSW post here.
The whole idea utterly baffled me — I really didn't get it. And the character limit seemed like, um, not my thing. So my account was completely dormant until last year. I'd never much looked at Twitter at all, other than tweets linked from here or similar.
But since last year, my experience of Twitter has been an eye-opener. My time there has been probably 70% reading tweets and conversations from minority and very diverse communities, a few that I'm a part of and many I'm not. I've learned a lot of things from Black Twitter that I otherwise wouldn't have. The information, discussion, and fellowship with other disabled people has alone been worth it for me. But there's also the Ukrainians documenting the war or Iranians and their protests there (for a while). The transgender community on Twitter is still very active and this is a heartbreaking, terrifying time when people absolutely need all the support they can get and lines of communication open.
Musk is absolutely horrible but . . . he's outing himself as a horrible person on a weekly basis and there's still a bazillion people there around the world watching it happen. I don't know if I could have scripted a more effective destruction of his credibility — and, given his wealth and influence, the world really needs to see who he really is.
Which brings me to my final point. Sure, engagement into advertising is the business, and engagement relies upon views, but what's happening now at Twitter is beyond how many users it's losing. Things are too dire and happening too fast for a boycott to make a difference. Musk all by himself is doing a stellar job in driving off advertisers, opening the company to lawsuits, and destroying the reliability of the platform. It's going down — that is, bankruptcy is where it's heading fast. What happens after that and if that leads to Musk's exit and a reversal of these changes, I don't know.
But until that happens all these communities rely upon Twitter because there's not anything remotely comparable because of network effects.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:51 AM on March 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
The whole idea utterly baffled me — I really didn't get it. And the character limit seemed like, um, not my thing. So my account was completely dormant until last year. I'd never much looked at Twitter at all, other than tweets linked from here or similar.
But since last year, my experience of Twitter has been an eye-opener. My time there has been probably 70% reading tweets and conversations from minority and very diverse communities, a few that I'm a part of and many I'm not. I've learned a lot of things from Black Twitter that I otherwise wouldn't have. The information, discussion, and fellowship with other disabled people has alone been worth it for me. But there's also the Ukrainians documenting the war or Iranians and their protests there (for a while). The transgender community on Twitter is still very active and this is a heartbreaking, terrifying time when people absolutely need all the support they can get and lines of communication open.
Musk is absolutely horrible but . . . he's outing himself as a horrible person on a weekly basis and there's still a bazillion people there around the world watching it happen. I don't know if I could have scripted a more effective destruction of his credibility — and, given his wealth and influence, the world really needs to see who he really is.
Which brings me to my final point. Sure, engagement into advertising is the business, and engagement relies upon views, but what's happening now at Twitter is beyond how many users it's losing. Things are too dire and happening too fast for a boycott to make a difference. Musk all by himself is doing a stellar job in driving off advertisers, opening the company to lawsuits, and destroying the reliability of the platform. It's going down — that is, bankruptcy is where it's heading fast. What happens after that and if that leads to Musk's exit and a reversal of these changes, I don't know.
But until that happens all these communities rely upon Twitter because there's not anything remotely comparable because of network effects.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:51 AM on March 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
I like that we are moving the discussion towards solution finding around the problem, at least, rather aggressive shooting-the-messenger or denying the problem could possibly exist.
posted by Artw at 11:55 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 11:55 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Am on the MeFi Mastodon instance and post there a little (more than I ever did with Twitter for sure). Still use Twitter - mostly for certain time sensitive alerts that Twitter is the only channel for (notably ski lift holds - which are kind of important when planning weekend ski runs - looking at you @ParkCityMtnAlert ...., and certain weather forecasts / avalanche report alerts etc.). At certain times of the year (where I live forest fire season etc.) it's also the best way to get updates from police/fire in an emergency - tweets normally beat text alerts from the same organization by minutes to hours. etc.
But in terms of general social media, there is more than enough content for me between Mastodon and Instagram if I want to be aimless scrolling....
Suspect I will always have a Twitter account in somewhat "read only" state to enable following etc....If there a generically easy way to follow Twitter accounts from Mastodon (even if just read only) I would just do that.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:13 PM on March 9, 2023
But in terms of general social media, there is more than enough content for me between Mastodon and Instagram if I want to be aimless scrolling....
Suspect I will always have a Twitter account in somewhat "read only" state to enable following etc....If there a generically easy way to follow Twitter accounts from Mastodon (even if just read only) I would just do that.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 1:13 PM on March 9, 2023
I left Twitter the night before Musk took over, partly because -fuck that guy- but mostly because my love-hate relationship with Twitter was already mostly on the hate side long before that. So in a way I have Musk to thank for helping me finally leave Twitter, which has been a net plus for my mental health.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:26 PM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:26 PM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Musk is absolutely horrible but . . . he's outing himself as a horrible person on a weekly basis and there's still a bazillion people there around the world watching it happen. I don't know if I could have scripted a more effective destruction of his credibility — and, given his wealth and influence, the world really needs to see who he really is.
This is an excellent point that bears repeating, as it is with Adams. Both of them have done almost all the work to destroy their own public reputations — probably much more than any individual here could possibly accomplish by yelling at strangers on a computer screen.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:32 PM on March 9, 2023
This is an excellent point that bears repeating, as it is with Adams. Both of them have done almost all the work to destroy their own public reputations — probably much more than any individual here could possibly accomplish by yelling at strangers on a computer screen.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:32 PM on March 9, 2023
"community" does not equal "organisation". Black Twitter is not an organisation, for starters.
Facebook has its own problems with colluding with fascist politics, I'm surprised to see it being recommended as an option. Mastodon still doesn't really know how to deal with PoC members.
Those of you who aren't from those marginalised communities should chill out and maybe shut up about what marginalised communities should be doing with their social media presence.
posted by creatrixtiara at 1:41 PM on March 9, 2023 [26 favorites]
Facebook has its own problems with colluding with fascist politics, I'm surprised to see it being recommended as an option. Mastodon still doesn't really know how to deal with PoC members.
Those of you who aren't from those marginalised communities should chill out and maybe shut up about what marginalised communities should be doing with their social media presence.
posted by creatrixtiara at 1:41 PM on March 9, 2023 [26 favorites]
I was briefly envisioning the rise and fall of Twitter and Elon Icarusk as a Philip Glass or Steve Reich style minimalist opera ala John Adams's Nixon in China about the rise and fall of Twitter and Elon Icarusk as a downward stumbling helical chain. The plot wrote itself in the Mirror Universe afaiac. I would leave the floor open as to music and lyrics. Then upon research, I come to realize Nixon was in China 50 years ago last year. Which is a chilling and sobering thought, all things considered.
posted by y2karl at 1:43 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 1:43 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Interesting
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:17 PM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:17 PM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
"community" does not equal "organisation". Black Twitter is not an organisation, for starters.
If that's a response to me, I didn't say it was, and I tried hard to refer to companies, organizations, and communities as separate things that don't have the same needs.
Facebook has its own problems with colluding with fascist politics, I'm surprised to see it being recommended as an option.
I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a replacement for Black Twitter, but for Brands™ that really just want a megaphone and occasional lip service when a complaint goes viral, Facebook is just about perfect. Twitter was a minefield for Brands™ even before the sale to Elon.
Mastodon still doesn't really know how to deal with PoC members.
Not to discount what has happened, but however many reply guys there were, and however much they may try to enforce one idea of how it should operate, they don't own the protocol or all the servers. And I think if Black Twitter could manage to go from thriving in the margins to being one of the core factors of Twitter's success (to the extent Twitter was "successful"), then there's no reason that one or more fediverse instances couldn't accomplish the same sort of community, although they wouldn't achieve virality in the same way without trending topics in the sidebar.
Those of you who aren't from those marginalised communities should chill out and maybe shut up about what marginalised communities should be doing with their social media presence.
What I'm saying is any community that relies on Twitter needs a disaster plan, because the disaster is imminent. Right now what I keep hearing is that it works, for now, and … mind my own business? I can definitely go back to minding my own business, but that doesn't mean those communities don't still need a plan.
posted by fedward at 2:28 PM on March 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
If that's a response to me, I didn't say it was, and I tried hard to refer to companies, organizations, and communities as separate things that don't have the same needs.
Facebook has its own problems with colluding with fascist politics, I'm surprised to see it being recommended as an option.
I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a replacement for Black Twitter, but for Brands™ that really just want a megaphone and occasional lip service when a complaint goes viral, Facebook is just about perfect. Twitter was a minefield for Brands™ even before the sale to Elon.
Mastodon still doesn't really know how to deal with PoC members.
Not to discount what has happened, but however many reply guys there were, and however much they may try to enforce one idea of how it should operate, they don't own the protocol or all the servers. And I think if Black Twitter could manage to go from thriving in the margins to being one of the core factors of Twitter's success (to the extent Twitter was "successful"), then there's no reason that one or more fediverse instances couldn't accomplish the same sort of community, although they wouldn't achieve virality in the same way without trending topics in the sidebar.
Those of you who aren't from those marginalised communities should chill out and maybe shut up about what marginalised communities should be doing with their social media presence.
What I'm saying is any community that relies on Twitter needs a disaster plan, because the disaster is imminent. Right now what I keep hearing is that it works, for now, and … mind my own business? I can definitely go back to minding my own business, but that doesn't mean those communities don't still need a plan.
posted by fedward at 2:28 PM on March 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
envisioning the rise and fall of Twitter and Elon Icarusk as a Philip Glass or Steve Reich style minimalist opera ala John Adams's Nixon in China
'The Reich Chancellor of Spaceports'
posted by clavdivs at 2:30 PM on March 9, 2023
'The Reich Chancellor of Spaceports'
posted by clavdivs at 2:30 PM on March 9, 2023
Not to discount what has happened, but however many reply guys there were, and however much they may try to enforce one idea of how it should operate, they don't own the protocol or all the servers.
Friend, you are literally doing #notallservers. Please do not dismiss this poster's lived experience.
posted by Kitteh at 2:44 PM on March 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Friend, you are literally doing #notallservers. Please do not dismiss this poster's lived experience.
posted by Kitteh at 2:44 PM on March 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
'The Reich Chancellor of Spaceports'
Life imitates the Jetsons. With swastikas.
posted by y2karl at 2:48 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Life imitates the Jetsons. With swastikas.
posted by y2karl at 2:48 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wonder how many people think Mastodon is one organization, like Twitter? Seems like it’s not - I could put up a Mastodon instance on my own hosting and bam, I’d be rooting or whatever the buzzword is.
Not going to - I wrote my own vaguely-Twitteresque clone that I’ll get around to setting up one day.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 2:57 PM on March 9, 2023
Not going to - I wrote my own vaguely-Twitteresque clone that I’ll get around to setting up one day.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 2:57 PM on March 9, 2023
Mastodon is not one organisation, yes, but the issue is that there are prevailing norms across instances that lead towards POC having a not-great experience there. You can read about some of those experiences here, it's mostly to do with the culture around content warnings but expands out of that.
posted by creatrixtiara at 3:02 PM on March 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 3:02 PM on March 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
but I'm keeping mine open so I can follow the war, the one in Ukraine and the manufactured social media one.
posted by clavdivs at 3:03 PM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 3:03 PM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Life imitates the Jetsons.
I'd hope you come over to mastodon and rain us some goodies.
posted by clavdivs at 3:23 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd hope you come over to mastodon and rain us some goodies.
posted by clavdivs at 3:23 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Friend, you are literally doing #notallservers. Please do not dismiss this poster's lived experience.
I’m literally not, but there’s no reply that doesn’t dig me into a hole (or a deeper hole) so I’m out. (Of this thread, not buttoning).
posted by fedward at 4:15 PM on March 9, 2023
I’m literally not, but there’s no reply that doesn’t dig me into a hole (or a deeper hole) so I’m out. (Of this thread, not buttoning).
posted by fedward at 4:15 PM on March 9, 2023
What I'm saying is any community that relies on Twitter needs a disaster plan, because the disaster is imminent. Right now what I keep hearing is that it works, for now, and … mind my own business?
I think it is more "it works for now, and probably will continue working" along with "if it actually collapses, then people will go wherever other people go, because a lot of the value of Twitter is having so many people there." Right now all the semi-replacements offer bits and pieces but nothing like the whole pie, and that won't change unless Twitter for real tanks and people are forced to move.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:58 PM on March 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think it is more "it works for now, and probably will continue working" along with "if it actually collapses, then people will go wherever other people go, because a lot of the value of Twitter is having so many people there." Right now all the semi-replacements offer bits and pieces but nothing like the whole pie, and that won't change unless Twitter for real tanks and people are forced to move.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:58 PM on March 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
I feel like the Black community is probably smart enough to set up their own community with the affordances they require. As an observer, it seemed like some of the objections that people had and the discussions that resulted was instructive in where the problem lies. Take quot tweets: for some Black users they were a universally good and necessary feature, to add context and point people to larger discussions, and also to provide receipts, but to some transgender users they were a universally bad and destructive feature, used to co-ordinate harassment and start dogpiles. People did not seem to have much empathy for each other's experiences, while simultaneously demanding it of others.
My experience on Mastodon was a) I'm not much interested in shouting into the void, and I already have a community to share stray thoughts with on Discord, but also b) I think Mastodon replicates some of the dynamics of Twitter that are harmful, and I think my frustration with the communities that stay on Twitter are because I think, like me when I was on Twitter, they're suffering from the harms that Twitter causes but aren't willing to acknowledge it because they like the benefits, or think the benefits can be had without the harms. Maybe they're built different! Maybe they don't doomscroll because everyone's posting Important Updates about how bad things are and overwhelming their ability to empathise. Maybe Black Twitter never gets connected to someone who's Just Asking Questions who you could just get rid of on a platform with stronger moderation. Maybe the Ukrainians don't have to deal with some petty jackass starting a harassment campaign, and then everyone talking about the harassment campaign just compounding the harassment. I guess the ski lift people don't have to worry about their feed getting filled with people making big, bold, viral claims without any nuance or, frequently, accuracy.
These were all things I had to deal with on Twitter that I think, with some evidence, I can argue are specific to Twitter, or at least social media, and I could not work out how to avoid them. But I am middle-aged now, and I miss Google Reader and the bright future of RSS.
posted by Merus at 6:40 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
My experience on Mastodon was a) I'm not much interested in shouting into the void, and I already have a community to share stray thoughts with on Discord, but also b) I think Mastodon replicates some of the dynamics of Twitter that are harmful, and I think my frustration with the communities that stay on Twitter are because I think, like me when I was on Twitter, they're suffering from the harms that Twitter causes but aren't willing to acknowledge it because they like the benefits, or think the benefits can be had without the harms. Maybe they're built different! Maybe they don't doomscroll because everyone's posting Important Updates about how bad things are and overwhelming their ability to empathise. Maybe Black Twitter never gets connected to someone who's Just Asking Questions who you could just get rid of on a platform with stronger moderation. Maybe the Ukrainians don't have to deal with some petty jackass starting a harassment campaign, and then everyone talking about the harassment campaign just compounding the harassment. I guess the ski lift people don't have to worry about their feed getting filled with people making big, bold, viral claims without any nuance or, frequently, accuracy.
These were all things I had to deal with on Twitter that I think, with some evidence, I can argue are specific to Twitter, or at least social media, and I could not work out how to avoid them. But I am middle-aged now, and I miss Google Reader and the bright future of RSS.
posted by Merus at 6:40 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Put much shorter: I think social media is probably bad, because just look what it did to Elon Musk
posted by Merus at 7:10 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Merus at 7:10 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Right now all the semi-replacements offer bits and pieces but nothing like the whole pie, and that won't change unless Twitter for real tanks and people are forced to move.
Or, equally likely, Musk degrades the value of Twitter to the point where the banks call in their loans, then sell it to the highest bidder, who may or may not be a fascist or the owner of most of the world's social media (but I repeat myself) and the whole cycle starts again, possibly with a happy ending, but the more time that goes by, the less likely that is.
posted by dg at 7:40 PM on March 9, 2023
Or, equally likely, Musk degrades the value of Twitter to the point where the banks call in their loans, then sell it to the highest bidder, who may or may not be a fascist or the owner of most of the world's social media (but I repeat myself) and the whole cycle starts again, possibly with a happy ending, but the more time that goes by, the less likely that is.
posted by dg at 7:40 PM on March 9, 2023
Put much shorter: I think social media is probably bad, because just look what it did to Elon Musk
posted by Merus at 7:10 PM on March 9 [1 favorite +] [!]
How many Billionaire egos can dance on the head of a byte?
posted by From Bklyn at 12:45 AM on March 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Merus at 7:10 PM on March 9 [1 favorite +] [!]
How many Billionaire egos can dance on the head of a byte?
posted by From Bklyn at 12:45 AM on March 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I spend time on Twitter because I find active disability justice community on there. Disabled folks use social media to connect with each other. Y'all are really showing your glaring privileges here.
posted by yueliang at 4:36 AM on March 10, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by yueliang at 4:36 AM on March 10, 2023 [20 favorites]
Advertisers largely avoid sites that primarily cater to racists, fascists, Nazis, and so on.
citation needed
posted by chavenet at 6:59 AM on March 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
citation needed
posted by chavenet at 6:59 AM on March 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
The thing that's tanking Twitter economically isn't "users fleeing," it's "advertisers bailing because they don't want their brands openly associated with neo-Nazi stuff." Individual users don't make Twitter a lot of money unless they pay for Twitter Blue.
So, uh, if you have Twitter Blue... maybe stop having it. To avoid helping Elon make money. Perfect compromise, now everybody's happy.
(hamburger etc)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 7:33 AM on March 10, 2023
So, uh, if you have Twitter Blue... maybe stop having it. To avoid helping Elon make money. Perfect compromise, now everybody's happy.
(hamburger etc)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 7:33 AM on March 10, 2023
citation needed
Unfortunately this is paywalled, but Josh Marshall wrote on this here, from the perspective of someone whose livelihood used to be about getting advertisers to pay for space.
Because of this thread I spent more time looking at who was still on Twitter in the last few days; I use an adblocker but I can still say something about the ad content, because I saw this post mocking Musk for turning it into a low rent place selling tattoo ads (link is via Nitter).
I don't know how things will turn out financially long term, and some big names are still there.
But given the prodigious rate Twitter is currently bleeding out Musk's cash and reputation I'm wondering if another good analogy--beyond town square, racist bar, local paper--is that he's capitalist whose trying to sell you the rope to hang them with.
posted by mark k at 7:37 AM on March 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately this is paywalled, but Josh Marshall wrote on this here, from the perspective of someone whose livelihood used to be about getting advertisers to pay for space.
It’s not just that advertisers don’t want to be near hate speech or awful things. It goes way beyond that. They want to tell you about their brand when you’re in a good, comfortable, feel-good moment.And in fact Twitter seems to have lost over 60% of its top advertisers.
Here’s an example. Why do you think that even in his heyday Drudge never had anything more than low-rent, crap ads, t-shirt and supplement advertising and the like? [ . . . ] the big, big reason is that even though it was a hugely, hugely popular site, premium advertisers simply don’t want to be near something that hot and contentious. Half the people are hate-reading anyway. And those who aren’t are still in an agitated state. There’s always a big inverse premium for yuck and discomfort and controversy. That’s just how the ad business works.
Because of this thread I spent more time looking at who was still on Twitter in the last few days; I use an adblocker but I can still say something about the ad content, because I saw this post mocking Musk for turning it into a low rent place selling tattoo ads (link is via Nitter).
I don't know how things will turn out financially long term, and some big names are still there.
But given the prodigious rate Twitter is currently bleeding out Musk's cash and reputation I'm wondering if another good analogy--beyond town square, racist bar, local paper--is that he's capitalist whose trying to sell you the rope to hang them with.
posted by mark k at 7:37 AM on March 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
This discussion reminds me strongly of (nearly) every discussion I've participated in involving people's frustration with crumbling critical infrastructure like mass transit. People who rarely use the bus, subway, or trains can opt out and use cars, bikes, scooters, Ubers, or maybe walk to their jobs/errands. Subway users might have enough for a monthly ticket but not enough to pay for parking in-town, car payments and insurance, or regular Uber rides. People who rely on the buses might be able to take a subway, if there's a close station, but maybe it's too expensive for them, the timing doesn't work, or they can't physically walk the distance. Commuter train users might share a car with a partner who uses it during the day, can't bike 25 miles one way from the suburbs, or can't move closer to their job due to costs. And so on.
Many folks don't see social media as critical infrastructure, but it is for a lot of people, for differing reasons. People's responses to the original poster's question seem to reflect how critical Twitter is to each of us and our ability to find an alternate route to our metaphorical destinations. I feel that we have to trust folks to know what is best for them in these situations.
posted by skye.dancer at 8:27 AM on March 10, 2023 [28 favorites]
Many folks don't see social media as critical infrastructure, but it is for a lot of people, for differing reasons. People's responses to the original poster's question seem to reflect how critical Twitter is to each of us and our ability to find an alternate route to our metaphorical destinations. I feel that we have to trust folks to know what is best for them in these situations.
posted by skye.dancer at 8:27 AM on March 10, 2023 [28 favorites]
Twitter has destroyed about half of Elon Musk's total net worth so far, and it's not done yet.
I am not a Twitter guy and have never had an account, but it is fascinating to see what $44 billion worth of buyer’s remorse looks like.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:55 AM on March 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am not a Twitter guy and have never had an account, but it is fascinating to see what $44 billion worth of buyer’s remorse looks like.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:55 AM on March 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Did he always post only single words and stray punctuation marks?
Or has relentless public mocking made him fearful of opening his mouth? (if so, gj everyone)
posted by ryanrs at 11:05 AM on March 10, 2023
Or has relentless public mocking made him fearful of opening his mouth? (if so, gj everyone)
posted by ryanrs at 11:05 AM on March 10, 2023
I'm a big fan of chatty what-the-hell-why-not MetaTalk threads.
posted by infini at 12:01 PM on March 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by infini at 12:01 PM on March 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
I spend time on Twitter because I find active disability justice community on there. Disabled folks use social media to connect with each other. Y'all are really showing your glaring privileges here.
Facebook and other social media platforms including Twitter, to a lesser extent, help with the establishment and defense of fascist governments around the world. These are facts. I don't think, historically, that disabled people have fared well under fascist regimes. In fact, historically, quite the opposite. So it seems an important discussion to have: how our participation in these systems can make things worse for everyone, disabled people included, even if there seem no simple, one-size-fits-all solutions.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:54 PM on March 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Facebook and other social media platforms including Twitter, to a lesser extent, help with the establishment and defense of fascist governments around the world. These are facts. I don't think, historically, that disabled people have fared well under fascist regimes. In fact, historically, quite the opposite. So it seems an important discussion to have: how our participation in these systems can make things worse for everyone, disabled people included, even if there seem no simple, one-size-fits-all solutions.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:54 PM on March 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
This entire thread has been ridiculous, but maybe we can at least draw a line at accusing disabled people of being the problem? Or maybe we can all just stop with all of this?
posted by lapis at 8:43 PM on March 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by lapis at 8:43 PM on March 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
Who accused disabled people of being the problem?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:07 PM on March 10, 2023
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:07 PM on March 10, 2023
Seriously, if people are going to start taking the discussion in that direction, close this thread down.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:07 PM on March 10, 2023
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:07 PM on March 10, 2023
I'm a big fan of chatty what-the-hell-why-not MetaTalk threads.
Yeah... not to belabor the point but it's sad to me that the racist droppings of Scott Adams should require divination on Metafilter much less occasion a "chatty what-the-hell-why-not" MetaTalk thread. What the hell indeed. Why not? Scott Adams, that's why not. Musk, that's why not. Don't feed the trolls, that's why not. Racism, that's why not. Anyway whatever haha
posted by dmh at 10:58 PM on March 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah... not to belabor the point but it's sad to me that the racist droppings of Scott Adams should require divination on Metafilter much less occasion a "chatty what-the-hell-why-not" MetaTalk thread. What the hell indeed. Why not? Scott Adams, that's why not. Musk, that's why not. Don't feed the trolls, that's why not. Racism, that's why not. Anyway whatever haha
posted by dmh at 10:58 PM on March 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Otoh those topics have always been good for a 3000 comment grey thread or two
posted by infini at 11:04 PM on March 10, 2023
posted by infini at 11:04 PM on March 10, 2023
Don't feed the trolls, that's why not.
Is this thread feeding the trolls?
posted by kensington314 at 12:14 AM on March 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Is this thread feeding the trolls?
posted by kensington314 at 12:14 AM on March 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Metafilter is Little People. I doubt that Space Karen even knows we exist.
posted by flabdablet at 12:54 AM on March 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 12:54 AM on March 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, when he works out that this is the lab that the weaponized Woke Mind Virus leaked from, he's gonna be pissed.
posted by flabdablet at 12:56 AM on March 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 12:56 AM on March 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'll tell you where twitter's destruction is hurting - non white majority non the west spaces where the twitterati have found like minded tweeps across a vast continent with volatile infrastructures and legacies of imposed barriers between peoples (such as the African continent). My twitter community and social experience in that space is the only thing that keeps me there. I'm respected and valued for my words and insights. This helps cushion and insulate from the rest of it which is characterized by rampant misogyny and an active and hostile dislike of women with opinions and more melanin.
posted by infini at 1:04 AM on March 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by infini at 1:04 AM on March 11, 2023 [20 favorites]
Who could have predicted this "chat filter" thread would turn out like this.
posted by bondcliff at 7:55 AM on March 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by bondcliff at 7:55 AM on March 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure why my workplace has blocked both of the mastodon instances I'm on, but not Twitter; that certainly has made the transition harder.
Re the marginalized contributing to fascism by using social networks: it's extremely hard to come up with a thornier example of "no ethical consumption under capitalism" and getting judgey about it seems super counterproductive. Advertisers are by far the worse enablers, and it would probably be a better use of time to hector advertisers about what they're supporting. Most advertisers care at least a little bit about brand safety.
It is theoretically possible for cohesive communities to up and migrate to a different network (e.g. the Fediverse) and I do think that's desirable, but that depends on a sort of coordination that is hard to manage with people of differing opinions in a fragmented communication stream. An idea that I've floated in the past is attempting to form a "defector's quorum": an agreement between people that they will migrate to alternative platform X if and when there is some threshold number of people that also agree. But this idea is not workable yet, because 1) a defector's quorum should be focused on a particular community to be meaningful (who is going to migrate to Mastodon just because 10000 randos do? we want to migrate to Mastodon if our folks are going there), but that is in tension with 2) people belong to multiple intersecting communities that they want to preserve. There might be a way to modify the DQ idea to somehow reconcile that and enable communities to move, but I'm really not sure.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:03 AM on March 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Re the marginalized contributing to fascism by using social networks: it's extremely hard to come up with a thornier example of "no ethical consumption under capitalism" and getting judgey about it seems super counterproductive. Advertisers are by far the worse enablers, and it would probably be a better use of time to hector advertisers about what they're supporting. Most advertisers care at least a little bit about brand safety.
It is theoretically possible for cohesive communities to up and migrate to a different network (e.g. the Fediverse) and I do think that's desirable, but that depends on a sort of coordination that is hard to manage with people of differing opinions in a fragmented communication stream. An idea that I've floated in the past is attempting to form a "defector's quorum": an agreement between people that they will migrate to alternative platform X if and when there is some threshold number of people that also agree. But this idea is not workable yet, because 1) a defector's quorum should be focused on a particular community to be meaningful (who is going to migrate to Mastodon just because 10000 randos do? we want to migrate to Mastodon if our folks are going there), but that is in tension with 2) people belong to multiple intersecting communities that they want to preserve. There might be a way to modify the DQ idea to somehow reconcile that and enable communities to move, but I'm really not sure.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:03 AM on March 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Spreading the knowledge of how to crosspost from Mastodon to Twitter might be a good idea.
posted by flabdablet at 9:35 AM on March 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 9:35 AM on March 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think the Fascist Bar analogy works well, but I don't see the logic of yelling at the patrons most vulnerable to fascist violence that they are both in terrible danger AND complicit. If these groups aren't listening to you, it's probably because you haven't demonstrated yourself as trustworthy by being in relationship with them. They are also likely much better equipped to protect themselves and their community in the ways that are meaningful to them. If you disagree and want to help, try building affinity with folks and working together. If you disagree and don't want to help, then I sincerely don't believe you know what's best. For anyone.
By the twitter-user = fascism enabler logic, and regarding complicity, every publicly traded, U.S. based corporation helps with the establishment and defense of fascism globally. All of them*. At the very least, you're subsidizing the financing for Vangaurd, Blackrock, et al; matching their funds, as it were. Bolstering their reach and control. At worst, you own a portion of the surplus labor value of child soldiers, child slaves, and functionally their surrounding communities and help maintain that control through your financing. You own portions of global police-state surveillance. You finance and benefit from stealing people's water. You're a micro villain make no mistake. If you have a 401k or any sort of stock portfolio (yes even the ESGs c'mon), congratulations, your contribution to fascism outpaces anything you're doing on twitter that isn't active propagation of fascist ideology. The same can be said of working for said companies if you expect to ever retire because what's going to finance that retirement? The actors and deeds mentioned above.
I don't use Twitter, and I cancelled shortly after Elno bought it. But I'm a white queer that can pass as cis (for now) and is only marginally disabled currently. I have other community, and no one wants to kill me on sight in a country built by and against me.
You know who does use Twitter? Bail funds. Abortion clinics. Abortion access advocates. Transgender advocates. The list goes on. Have the "twitter users = complicit in fascism" folks compared themselves and their actions to the actions of these groups? How do you and your circles compare? Why do you think you know more about which work is important than the Southern Poverty Law Center or the Community Justice Exchange? Do you think it's possible that you're wrong? Maybe there's a piece you're missing. Maybe there's a more fruitful fight, fought by those who have been fighting it and risking their lives for generations. Maybe listen to them or risk trusting that they know what they're doing. That, at best, you're a piece of the puzzle, and you don't have the whole picture. Idk, please try to make this about working towards collective liberation and not about making sure folks know you're right. Please.
*Feel free to memail me the 10k of a corp for which you disagree with this assertion, and I'll point to you where in the filings we can trace portions of their contributions
posted by CPAnarchist at 9:57 AM on March 11, 2023 [28 favorites]
By the twitter-user = fascism enabler logic, and regarding complicity, every publicly traded, U.S. based corporation helps with the establishment and defense of fascism globally. All of them*. At the very least, you're subsidizing the financing for Vangaurd, Blackrock, et al; matching their funds, as it were. Bolstering their reach and control. At worst, you own a portion of the surplus labor value of child soldiers, child slaves, and functionally their surrounding communities and help maintain that control through your financing. You own portions of global police-state surveillance. You finance and benefit from stealing people's water. You're a micro villain make no mistake. If you have a 401k or any sort of stock portfolio (yes even the ESGs c'mon), congratulations, your contribution to fascism outpaces anything you're doing on twitter that isn't active propagation of fascist ideology. The same can be said of working for said companies if you expect to ever retire because what's going to finance that retirement? The actors and deeds mentioned above.
I don't use Twitter, and I cancelled shortly after Elno bought it. But I'm a white queer that can pass as cis (for now) and is only marginally disabled currently. I have other community, and no one wants to kill me on sight in a country built by and against me.
You know who does use Twitter? Bail funds. Abortion clinics. Abortion access advocates. Transgender advocates. The list goes on. Have the "twitter users = complicit in fascism" folks compared themselves and their actions to the actions of these groups? How do you and your circles compare? Why do you think you know more about which work is important than the Southern Poverty Law Center or the Community Justice Exchange? Do you think it's possible that you're wrong? Maybe there's a piece you're missing. Maybe there's a more fruitful fight, fought by those who have been fighting it and risking their lives for generations. Maybe listen to them or risk trusting that they know what they're doing. That, at best, you're a piece of the puzzle, and you don't have the whole picture. Idk, please try to make this about working towards collective liberation and not about making sure folks know you're right. Please.
*Feel free to memail me the 10k of a corp for which you disagree with this assertion, and I'll point to you where in the filings we can trace portions of their contributions
posted by CPAnarchist at 9:57 AM on March 11, 2023 [28 favorites]
CPAnarchist - Kind of amazing to me hoe much of that I agree with and how little of it I agree with in peoples imaginations here.
The things I would not agree with basically come down to
1) Twitter is not a special case
Yes there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and the problems with engaging with twitter are in some ways the same and have been since long before musk. And Twitter has *always* had a far right problem, which has varied intensity depending on how much say Jack Dorsey has had a say in things. But to the extent Twitter has been run like a normal company (ie Dorsey less in charge) it has attempted to keep a lid on it, if only for the self serving reason of keeping advertisers happy. Elon, however, bought it with express intent to sweep all that away, amplify far right voices and suppress voices critical of the far right. Elon may want it to run like a normal business to some extent, but they are far more interested in running it as a political tool to achieve fasicst goals. Twitter is not a New York Times or an Amazon. Twitter is a Stormfront. Twitter is Gab or Parler if Gab or Parler bought a whole bunch of normal users to lend itself legitimacy.
2) A "good" use of twitter does not help fascism
Just like there's no ethical consumption under capitalism there's no ethical twitter use under Elon Musk. Every single post and interaction helps his fascist project, even if it seemingly opposes it*. If you are one of the normal users that Elon has bought your choices are to drop out or have your posts contribute to his goal. It fucking sucks, but it does not become untrue because it sucks or is inconvenient.
Which is not to say that you can't still do good with twitter. I'm sure you can
That doesn't mean there isn't a cost, but it does mean its offset. Welcome to the moral tightrope walk no ethical consumption implies. If the offset outweighs the cost is something all those groups you've mentioned are going to have to figure out for themselves as a continual basis as twitter becomes less useful and less safe**.
3) Stopping using twitter is impossible
Yeah, no, it's not. Not for me, not for most of you. Stopping using twitter can suck and have a cost but its not like it isn't doable or alternatives can't be found. Most of the cost is loss of reach due to inertia and the more people leave or it stops working the less that becomes a problem anyway.
* A lot of them DO NOT actually oppose it, ie engaging with chuds and increasing their audience, and people should have stopped doing that long before Musk bought it
** a whole other conversation people are determined not to have. Digging in on a platform run by someone who hates you carries all kinds of risks, from amplified hate campaigns against you to selective bans to exposure of data.
posted by Artw at 11:06 AM on March 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
The things I would not agree with basically come down to
1) Twitter is not a special case
Yes there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and the problems with engaging with twitter are in some ways the same and have been since long before musk. And Twitter has *always* had a far right problem, which has varied intensity depending on how much say Jack Dorsey has had a say in things. But to the extent Twitter has been run like a normal company (ie Dorsey less in charge) it has attempted to keep a lid on it, if only for the self serving reason of keeping advertisers happy. Elon, however, bought it with express intent to sweep all that away, amplify far right voices and suppress voices critical of the far right. Elon may want it to run like a normal business to some extent, but they are far more interested in running it as a political tool to achieve fasicst goals. Twitter is not a New York Times or an Amazon. Twitter is a Stormfront. Twitter is Gab or Parler if Gab or Parler bought a whole bunch of normal users to lend itself legitimacy.
2) A "good" use of twitter does not help fascism
Just like there's no ethical consumption under capitalism there's no ethical twitter use under Elon Musk. Every single post and interaction helps his fascist project, even if it seemingly opposes it*. If you are one of the normal users that Elon has bought your choices are to drop out or have your posts contribute to his goal. It fucking sucks, but it does not become untrue because it sucks or is inconvenient.
Which is not to say that you can't still do good with twitter. I'm sure you can
That doesn't mean there isn't a cost, but it does mean its offset. Welcome to the moral tightrope walk no ethical consumption implies. If the offset outweighs the cost is something all those groups you've mentioned are going to have to figure out for themselves as a continual basis as twitter becomes less useful and less safe**.
3) Stopping using twitter is impossible
Yeah, no, it's not. Not for me, not for most of you. Stopping using twitter can suck and have a cost but its not like it isn't doable or alternatives can't be found. Most of the cost is loss of reach due to inertia and the more people leave or it stops working the less that becomes a problem anyway.
* A lot of them DO NOT actually oppose it, ie engaging with chuds and increasing their audience, and people should have stopped doing that long before Musk bought it
** a whole other conversation people are determined not to have. Digging in on a platform run by someone who hates you carries all kinds of risks, from amplified hate campaigns against you to selective bans to exposure of data.
posted by Artw at 11:06 AM on March 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Artw, please take a break from this thread.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:12 PM on March 11, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 1:12 PM on March 11, 2023 [24 favorites]
Digging in on a platform run by someone who hates you carries all kinds of risks, from amplified hate campaigns against you to selective bans to exposure of data.
After Trump, the entire english language internet can be described so...
posted by infini at 9:53 PM on March 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
After Trump, the entire english language internet can be described so...
posted by infini at 9:53 PM on March 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
It’s the pickle of our times: private infrastructure being used for public means - things that really should be the perview of government. But they‘re not.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:44 AM on March 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 1:44 AM on March 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I absolutely agree that Twitter is at least well on its way to becoming a fascist hangout. It's big enough still that the presence of a larger number of fascists doesn't immediately make it one, but the creep is there, it's going to happen.
My response hasn't been to stop using it altogether, but I've mostly gone into read only mode, I hardly post any original tweets at all, and when I retweet something, 9 times out of 10, it's to boost anti-fascist, anti-TERF/SWERF, anti-new-Twitter, or anti-Elon content. I also diligently block all advertisers I see (which isn't much of a loss, it's 90% crypto scams and other useless shit now).
I do still read quite a bit, mostly because a lot of accounts I follow haven't made the switch to anything else yet, but that's coming, and I foresee I'll use Twitter less and less during the next few months, and a full turn-off will probably be viable for me within 6 months to a year. That is if Twitter even lasts that long, because Elon's doing a hell of a job running it into the ground, totally separately from the nazi shit.
And yes, Artw is right, Twitter before Elon was full of far-right stuff, but it was to a large extent trying to keep it under control. In fact, it still is, the most egregious nazis do still get banned if you report them enough, including nazis that were just unbanned under the New Regime, but if what Elon has stated in the past is correct, then bans are no longer permanent, so even those few nazis that are banned now will eventually be allowed back sooner or later.
(Also, free Artw, his comments on this discussion have been on-point and consistently high quality, and I don't know why mods would delete his comments, of all things. Have you learned nothing from the recent discussions about deletions?)
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:13 AM on March 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
My response hasn't been to stop using it altogether, but I've mostly gone into read only mode, I hardly post any original tweets at all, and when I retweet something, 9 times out of 10, it's to boost anti-fascist, anti-TERF/SWERF, anti-new-Twitter, or anti-Elon content. I also diligently block all advertisers I see (which isn't much of a loss, it's 90% crypto scams and other useless shit now).
I do still read quite a bit, mostly because a lot of accounts I follow haven't made the switch to anything else yet, but that's coming, and I foresee I'll use Twitter less and less during the next few months, and a full turn-off will probably be viable for me within 6 months to a year. That is if Twitter even lasts that long, because Elon's doing a hell of a job running it into the ground, totally separately from the nazi shit.
And yes, Artw is right, Twitter before Elon was full of far-right stuff, but it was to a large extent trying to keep it under control. In fact, it still is, the most egregious nazis do still get banned if you report them enough, including nazis that were just unbanned under the New Regime, but if what Elon has stated in the past is correct, then bans are no longer permanent, so even those few nazis that are banned now will eventually be allowed back sooner or later.
(Also, free Artw, his comments on this discussion have been on-point and consistently high quality, and I don't know why mods would delete his comments, of all things. Have you learned nothing from the recent discussions about deletions?)
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:13 AM on March 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I couldn’t leave Twitter over Musk defending Dilbert Boy. I left when he did the “should I let Trumpy back on” poll. Deleted every single account I had (about a dozen). Turned off the bridge from my Mastodon account to my main Twitter account. I was done. Didn’t care that Donnie never actually started using his reactivated account. No more Twitter. I’m done.
posted by egypturnash at 10:29 AM on March 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 10:29 AM on March 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Twitter is still useful to me. But the layoffs really show. It used to be good at showing new content; now there are tweets it's shown to me several times a day for well over a week. I won't pay to have adequate security, so it may be moot. Arrogance seems to be expensive.
posted by theora55 at 11:18 AM on March 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 11:18 AM on March 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I never got Twitter. All the same, I joined to cybersquat y2karl. And now I get George Conway's tweets at the top. The internet knows me all too well.
posted by y2karl at 12:22 PM on March 13, 2023
posted by y2karl at 12:22 PM on March 13, 2023
Personally, I find this thread quite cromulent to the populace of MetaFilter. Indeed I had almost posted something similar, albeit without the dilbert shithead guy thing.
I was a heavy Twitter user for many years -- mostly for shitposting and lefty politics. I had all but stopped coming to MetaFilter. Then I quit Twitter the day the mush thing closed. I couldn't see anything good coming from it. Already having been off nearly all the socials, I started coming back here to fill my aching content void. I think my life has improved since then (to the possible detriment of MetaFilter).
posted by slogger at 12:25 PM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
I was a heavy Twitter user for many years -- mostly for shitposting and lefty politics. I had all but stopped coming to MetaFilter. Then I quit Twitter the day the mush thing closed. I couldn't see anything good coming from it. Already having been off nearly all the socials, I started coming back here to fill my aching content void. I think my life has improved since then (to the possible detriment of MetaFilter).
posted by slogger at 12:25 PM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also...
MetaFilter: My aching content void
(Is it okay to do that to your own comment? Is it like favoriting your own tweet?)
posted by slogger at 1:07 PM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
MetaFilter: My aching content void
(Is it okay to do that to your own comment? Is it like favoriting your own tweet?)
posted by slogger at 1:07 PM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
¯\_(🍆)_/¯
posted by flabdablet at 11:46 PM on March 13, 2023
posted by flabdablet at 11:46 PM on March 13, 2023
Jimmy Durante!
posted by clavdivs at 12:30 AM on March 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 12:30 AM on March 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
still reading down here
posted by infini at 1:13 AM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 1:13 AM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Antisemitic tweets soared on Twitter after Musk took over, study finds
posted by Artw at 1:42 PM on March 20, 2023
posted by Artw at 1:42 PM on March 20, 2023
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posted by kevinbelt at 10:34 AM on March 6, 2023 [10 favorites]