Unofficial MetaFilter Op-Ed About Political Content in FPPs November 24, 2004 10:06 AM Subscribe
"How hard is it to articulate a simple policy about political content? Matt has not done that, and needs to."
Which prompts another unofficial MetaFilter op-ed from y6y6y6.........
Which prompts another unofficial MetaFilter op-ed from y6y6y6.........
I'm generally not a fan of political posts for the sake of partisan politics, but if it's something major, it might be ok to post. There's no hard and fast rules because you can't define clearly what milestone or major news means to everyone. So I'm trusting everyone's judgement on passing over daily minor tempest-in-a-teapot political news and reserving it for major changes. It helps if you research background information as well, to help bring others up to speed -- so that a story isn't a single link to a reuters news feed about it, but someone finds a few links explaining the situation and why something is good or bad.
BTW, troutfishing knows exactly why I deleted his posts because I stated it clearly at least a couple times when he asked. He has posted numerous posts about the exact same subject and I never want to see a post from him ever again about the exact same subject he has posted on dozens of times before. Is that clear enough, troutfishing? I thought I mentioned and explained what "ax-grinding" meant and why I had a low tolerance for it. Troutfishing has made his last post about election voter fraud. The subject is over for him. Still confused? There are other people besides him that post over and over again about the same thing, which I also delete often and am bordering on banning folks that don't stop. Pet issues suck when people push them on the front page over and over again.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:13 AM on November 24, 2004
BTW, troutfishing knows exactly why I deleted his posts because I stated it clearly at least a couple times when he asked. He has posted numerous posts about the exact same subject and I never want to see a post from him ever again about the exact same subject he has posted on dozens of times before. Is that clear enough, troutfishing? I thought I mentioned and explained what "ax-grinding" meant and why I had a low tolerance for it. Troutfishing has made his last post about election voter fraud. The subject is over for him. Still confused? There are other people besides him that post over and over again about the same thing, which I also delete often and am bordering on banning folks that don't stop. Pet issues suck when people push them on the front page over and over again.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:13 AM on November 24, 2004
Thanks y6y6y6. I think that was well said. It always surprises me when people ask for rules or policy. Usually its just so that they can hit others over the head with it.
The old rule of everything in moderation makes a lot of sense. I've seen long threads here in metatalk where one or two lone defenders accuse everyone else of groupthink. The truth is that if the majority of the community is against you then its more likely that you are simply .... wrong. But its the nature of people to not be able to say "You know, just maybe, just possibly, its me that is totally off-base here. " (I'm looking at troutfishing and several others)
posted by vacapinta at 10:17 AM on November 24, 2004
The old rule of everything in moderation makes a lot of sense. I've seen long threads here in metatalk where one or two lone defenders accuse everyone else of groupthink. The truth is that if the majority of the community is against you then its more likely that you are simply .... wrong. But its the nature of people to not be able to say "You know, just maybe, just possibly, its me that is totally off-base here. " (I'm looking at troutfishing and several others)
posted by vacapinta at 10:17 AM on November 24, 2004
[sigh........]
I really didn't mean for this to be about Mr Fishing. Looking through the comments from yesterday on the front page it just struck me that many of the new users seemed to be here mainly for the political discussion. Which is bad.
1000+ new users, all active, who mainly want to Get Your War On, are going to be a force to be reckoned with. I was really talking to them. Frankly several dozen smallfry scare me much more than one trout.
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:24 AM on November 24, 2004
I really didn't mean for this to be about Mr Fishing. Looking through the comments from yesterday on the front page it just struck me that many of the new users seemed to be here mainly for the political discussion. Which is bad.
1000+ new users, all active, who mainly want to Get Your War On, are going to be a force to be reckoned with. I was really talking to them. Frankly several dozen smallfry scare me much more than one trout.
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:24 AM on November 24, 2004
Can I just add that it is absolutely inappropriate to take every g.d. link and turn it into a tirade about the USA.
Because that thread had / has great potential for people to share opinions and knowledge about the situation in (the) Ukraine but instead it is being infested with completely off topic childish moronic bullshit about the US elections.
posted by sebas at 10:33 AM on November 24, 2004
Because that thread had / has great potential for people to share opinions and knowledge about the situation in (the) Ukraine but instead it is being infested with completely off topic childish moronic bullshit about the US elections.
posted by sebas at 10:33 AM on November 24, 2004
I PREDICT MANY MANY MORE UNOFFICIAL ATTEMPTS BY Y63 TO SINGLE-HANDEDLY MOLD EVERY LAST NEW MEMBER IN HIS IMAGE. I PREDICT THE EFFORT WILL FAIL MISERABLY. I PREDICT THE FAILURE WILL NOT SERVE TO MITIGATE THE ONGOING ATTEMPTS. AND SO IT GOES.
posted by quonsar at 10:44 AM on November 24, 2004
posted by quonsar at 10:44 AM on November 24, 2004
Life is politics. That said, I agree that it is becoming very tiresome that some wish to repeatedly spout their venom over the election, "end-of-democracy," Christianity and it's (purportedly) noisome effect on society as they'd like it to be, or derail any discussion back to the forgoing topics.
Perhaps, Matt, it's time to give the folks who want to work out on each other over these issues their own "category" so they can bleed each other to death off the front page.
posted by Pressed Rat at 10:45 AM on November 24, 2004
Perhaps, Matt, it's time to give the folks who want to work out on each other over these issues their own "category" so they can bleed each other to death off the front page.
posted by Pressed Rat at 10:45 AM on November 24, 2004
New member (longtime reader) 2 Cents:
Rules and explicit policies as opposed to the thoughtful "invisible hand" of an incisive moderator usually mean ossification isn't too far off.
I treasure MetaFilter for the gems (see above) it provides, and for the elusive je ne sais quoi of the links, not for the chaff of repetitive postings on political points.
Believe me, I get those elsewhere. Lots of elsewheres. (Not to say that, on the right topic, MeFi doesn't give good political talk.)
Oh, and what y6y6y6 said.
posted by Aquaman at 10:48 AM on November 24, 2004
Rules and explicit policies as opposed to the thoughtful "invisible hand" of an incisive moderator usually mean ossification isn't too far off.
I treasure MetaFilter for the gems (see above) it provides, and for the elusive je ne sais quoi of the links, not for the chaff of repetitive postings on political points.
Believe me, I get those elsewhere. Lots of elsewheres. (Not to say that, on the right topic, MeFi doesn't give good political talk.)
Oh, and what y6y6y6 said.
posted by Aquaman at 10:48 AM on November 24, 2004
Sorry y6y6y6. I didnt see Matt's post when I posted so the mention of 'fishing was coincidental, not a pile-on. It was just the latest, clear example of how hard it is to try and make everyone happy.
posted by vacapinta at 10:50 AM on November 24, 2004
posted by vacapinta at 10:50 AM on November 24, 2004
Thanks, y6y6y6. This post should be bookmarked in half a dozen places.
Life is politics.
That's too vague to be disputed, but my life sure as shit isn't american politics.
posted by timeistight at 10:50 AM on November 24, 2004
Life is politics.
That's too vague to be disputed, but my life sure as shit isn't american politics.
posted by timeistight at 10:50 AM on November 24, 2004
I agree, this was well said y6y6y6. Speaking as a new user, (I've been a MeFi reader for several years and finally the join link worked for me :), I'm ready for the political rhetoric to tone down a bit. The best-of-the-web is what has always drawn me here...one of the few sites I visit daily.
posted by dbh at 10:59 AM on November 24, 2004
posted by dbh at 10:59 AM on November 24, 2004
talking of not-american politics. i smell an election fraud thread in the air... :o)
(ukraine just declared for the sitting president...)
posted by andrew cooke at 11:01 AM on November 24, 2004
(ukraine just declared for the sitting president...)
posted by andrew cooke at 11:01 AM on November 24, 2004
what mefi really is, is a place where people endlessly debate what mefi is. it's never really been anything else. if there is one thing that is clear it's that clarity is not highly prized as an ingredient in this stew. clarity and definition of purpose tend to dilute spontanaety and emergent creativity. on the other hand, unchannelled energy, expended without regard to tangible result production, leads to chaos. "How hard is it to articulate a simple policy about life? God has not done that, and needs to."
posted by quonsar at 11:04 AM on November 24, 2004
posted by quonsar at 11:04 AM on November 24, 2004
what mefi really is, is a place where people endlessly debate what mefi is.
Oh! Like Canada. (Does that make Fark the U.S.A.?)
posted by timeistight at 11:11 AM on November 24, 2004
Oh! Like Canada. (Does that make Fark the U.S.A.?)
posted by timeistight at 11:11 AM on November 24, 2004
Can I just add that it is absolutely inappropriate to take every g.d. link and turn it into a tirade about the USA.
I think this is a little overstated. Many see parallels between the elections in the US and the Ukraine, particularly the discrepancy between the exit polls and the vote tallies, and the incumbent's efforts in coaxing the media to make preliminary declarations of victory. Yes, the Ukraine situation is "worse," but that doesn't mean comparisons are off-limits.
posted by PrinceValium at 11:24 AM on November 24, 2004
I think this is a little overstated. Many see parallels between the elections in the US and the Ukraine, particularly the discrepancy between the exit polls and the vote tallies, and the incumbent's efforts in coaxing the media to make preliminary declarations of victory. Yes, the Ukraine situation is "worse," but that doesn't mean comparisons are off-limits.
posted by PrinceValium at 11:24 AM on November 24, 2004
PV, I was not referring to the valid parallels between the two elections but rather at some strange comments from people who's only goal of posting in the thread seems to be to trolling either the 'left' or the 'right' about the past US election.
posted by sebas at 11:42 AM on November 24, 2004
posted by sebas at 11:42 AM on November 24, 2004
1000+ new users, all active, who mainly want to Get Your War On
How do you figure? How do you know? Maybe we're as sick of the political stuff as you are. Maybe more so. Making broad generalizations about the motives of a thousand people whose comments you haven't yet read because they don't yet exist is weird and lazy.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:52 AM on November 24, 2004
How do you figure? How do you know? Maybe we're as sick of the political stuff as you are. Maybe more so. Making broad generalizations about the motives of a thousand people whose comments you haven't yet read because they don't yet exist is weird and lazy.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:52 AM on November 24, 2004
People in Canada endlessly debate what MeFi is? My God, that hockey strike is wreaking worse havoc than I thought!!
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:00 PM on November 24, 2004
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:00 PM on November 24, 2004
"....but rather at some strange comments from people who's only goal of posting in the thread seems to be...."
They can't help themselves. And frankly I don't think they even get it. They think this is reasonable, and indeed it's their obligation to make sure these topics are interjected into every possible discussion. I think the supposition is that people aren't aware of the issue, because if they were there would be mass protests in the streets. Which is silly. Everyone knows about the issue, and until it rises beyond the Michael Moore level people just aren't going to get worked up over it.
What the horse-beaters fail to understand is that Michael Moore is one of the main reasons Kerry lost. Trying to thrust the issue in our faces (even politely) over and over does their cause more harm than good.
We get it. We just don't think it's credible. Repeating it over and over isn't going to suddenly make us "come around". But it will certainly make us write you off.
You tried to raise awareness. You failed. Time to move on.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:06 PM on November 24, 2004
They can't help themselves. And frankly I don't think they even get it. They think this is reasonable, and indeed it's their obligation to make sure these topics are interjected into every possible discussion. I think the supposition is that people aren't aware of the issue, because if they were there would be mass protests in the streets. Which is silly. Everyone knows about the issue, and until it rises beyond the Michael Moore level people just aren't going to get worked up over it.
What the horse-beaters fail to understand is that Michael Moore is one of the main reasons Kerry lost. Trying to thrust the issue in our faces (even politely) over and over does their cause more harm than good.
We get it. We just don't think it's credible. Repeating it over and over isn't going to suddenly make us "come around". But it will certainly make us write you off.
You tried to raise awareness. You failed. Time to move on.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:06 PM on November 24, 2004
People in Canada endlessly debate what MeFi is?
I'm told Don Cherry and Celine Dion recently got into a fistfight over the lack of categories in AskMe.
posted by pardonyou? at 12:20 PM on November 24, 2004
I'm told Don Cherry and Celine Dion recently got into a fistfight over the lack of categories in AskMe.
posted by pardonyou? at 12:20 PM on November 24, 2004
"How do you figure?"
Admittedly it's a generalization. And while it's just my opinion, it is indeed what I'm seeing. The majority of new user postings in the political threads, and even a few in the welcome thread, seem to imply an eagerness to jump into the NewsPoliticsWar pool.
I see about 100 new users a day coming in, in addition to the 1000 who came in on the first couple days. Seems like a fair guess to say that 1000+ new members will soon be joining in on the political debates. Especially when you consider that these are folks who have been reading for quite awhile, and have now jumped at the chance to comment. Normally users are willing to lurk. These folks have taken positive action to show they want more.
That's how I figure.
Perhaps wrong. or opinionated. But then I warned you about that up front.
"Maybe we're as sick of the political stuff as you are. Maybe more so."
Again, I just call it as I see it. it might be overstating things to say the new users are flocking to the polinews threads. But they sure as hell aren't avoiding them.
"Making broad generalizations about the motives of a thousand people whose comments you haven't yet read because they don't yet exist is weird and lazy."
Even if I state right up front that it's just my opinion? Even if it's (at least to my mind) obvious I'm speaking in the general sense? How is that weird? That's what people do in the context of communities. How can we have a discussion of a community without generalizing at some point?
And obviously I *have* read their comments, because that's what I stated my motivation was. Additionally, I think what I've written here speaks for itself against the idea that I, or my thinking, is lazy.
Please explain how it's weird and lazy. I'm confused by your accusation.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:36 PM on November 24, 2004
Admittedly it's a generalization. And while it's just my opinion, it is indeed what I'm seeing. The majority of new user postings in the political threads, and even a few in the welcome thread, seem to imply an eagerness to jump into the NewsPoliticsWar pool.
I see about 100 new users a day coming in, in addition to the 1000 who came in on the first couple days. Seems like a fair guess to say that 1000+ new members will soon be joining in on the political debates. Especially when you consider that these are folks who have been reading for quite awhile, and have now jumped at the chance to comment. Normally users are willing to lurk. These folks have taken positive action to show they want more.
That's how I figure.
Perhaps wrong. or opinionated. But then I warned you about that up front.
"Maybe we're as sick of the political stuff as you are. Maybe more so."
Again, I just call it as I see it. it might be overstating things to say the new users are flocking to the polinews threads. But they sure as hell aren't avoiding them.
"Making broad generalizations about the motives of a thousand people whose comments you haven't yet read because they don't yet exist is weird and lazy."
Even if I state right up front that it's just my opinion? Even if it's (at least to my mind) obvious I'm speaking in the general sense? How is that weird? That's what people do in the context of communities. How can we have a discussion of a community without generalizing at some point?
And obviously I *have* read their comments, because that's what I stated my motivation was. Additionally, I think what I've written here speaks for itself against the idea that I, or my thinking, is lazy.
Please explain how it's weird and lazy. I'm confused by your accusation.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:36 PM on November 24, 2004
While there are X new users, you've probably read the comments (on the blue) of fewer than .05X of those new users. Your sample size is way too small in this instance. That's weird for someone who ostensibly takes pride in being thought of as intellectually rigorous.
Since new registration was opened, there have been 19 threads dealing with U.S. national politics. Let assume for the moment that each of these threads have 100 comments, though they surely have less. That's 1900 comments, very few of which were posted by the post-November 18th-ers. Take a look. I did. You didn't. That's lazy.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:58 PM on November 24, 2004
Since new registration was opened, there have been 19 threads dealing with U.S. national politics. Let assume for the moment that each of these threads have 100 comments, though they surely have less. That's 1900 comments, very few of which were posted by the post-November 18th-ers. Take a look. I did. You didn't. That's lazy.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:58 PM on November 24, 2004
y6, I do love you, but this endless campaign for Arbiter of Metafilter is getting increasingly tiresome. For the love of Baal, let it go. Put down the axe and the grinder, and step away from the Gray.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:11 PM on November 24, 2004
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:11 PM on November 24, 2004
God, I wish Matt would go ape-shit on those people that inevitably turn every thread into a discussion about the USA.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:38 PM on November 24, 2004
posted by five fresh fish at 1:38 PM on November 24, 2004
fff, did you just self-link yourself from the Blue to the Gray?
Frankly, I wish Matt would go apeshit on all of those people who inevitably turn every thread into a discussion about how Canada is superior to the USA. And you can find what I'm talking aboot yourself.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:45 PM on November 24, 2004
Frankly, I wish Matt would go apeshit on all of those people who inevitably turn every thread into a discussion about how Canada is superior to the USA. And you can find what I'm talking aboot yourself.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:45 PM on November 24, 2004
Man, y6y6y6y6y6y6y6y6y6y6y6y6...
I know I'm a new member here and it's always bad form for new members to step on toes, but good god you preach like it's the Sunday sermon. This thread, and especially this one, just reek, man. And since both threads were aimed at new users such as myself, I feel I can take at least some umbrage.
I understand you love MeFi. I can tell you're worried about the influx of new users. I know you're just trying to help. But good lord, people pay for the privilege of posting here! This isn't The Internet Starter Page, this isn't IE's default home page on a fresh Windows install; people have to search MeFi out, and then have to keep checking back to see if signups are going on (should they be so inclined to post, and not every lurker will), and then they have to pay to join. You are not dealing with teeming, ignorant masses who found MeFi via an AOL Keyword. We Did Not Just Get The Internet Yesterday.
Again, thanks for the pointers, but give us some credit. I'd imagine the large majority of us new users have been reading MeFi for months, at the very least, before being able to post. We know what this place is about; this is why we want to post here.
posted by m0nm0n at 1:55 PM on November 24, 2004
I know I'm a new member here and it's always bad form for new members to step on toes, but good god you preach like it's the Sunday sermon. This thread, and especially this one, just reek, man. And since both threads were aimed at new users such as myself, I feel I can take at least some umbrage.
I understand you love MeFi. I can tell you're worried about the influx of new users. I know you're just trying to help. But good lord, people pay for the privilege of posting here! This isn't The Internet Starter Page, this isn't IE's default home page on a fresh Windows install; people have to search MeFi out, and then have to keep checking back to see if signups are going on (should they be so inclined to post, and not every lurker will), and then they have to pay to join. You are not dealing with teeming, ignorant masses who found MeFi via an AOL Keyword. We Did Not Just Get The Internet Yesterday.
Again, thanks for the pointers, but give us some credit. I'd imagine the large majority of us new users have been reading MeFi for months, at the very least, before being able to post. We know what this place is about; this is why we want to post here.
posted by m0nm0n at 1:55 PM on November 24, 2004
Frankly, I wish Matt would go apeshit on all of those people who inevitably turn every thread into a discussion about how Canada is superior to the USA. And you can find what I'm talking aboot yourself.
No, I can't. Please find some examples.
posted by timeistight at 2:22 PM on November 24, 2004
No, I can't. Please find some examples.
posted by timeistight at 2:22 PM on November 24, 2004
What the horse-beaters fail to understand is that Michael Moore is one of the main reasons Kerry lost. Trying to thrust the issue in our faces (even politely) over and over does their cause more harm than good.
We get it. We just don't think it's credible. Repeating it over and over isn't going to suddenly make us "come around". But it will certainly make us write you off.
First of all, it's pretty bad form for you to start a thread about how politics shouldn't be posted and then start talking about how you disagree with the politics. It's somewhat disingenuous.
That said, are you fucking kidding me? Like, seriously, how out of touch with your society are you? People like Michael Moore, who bring the level of discourse down to a manageable, but--let's be honest--intellectually questionable level are the only people the majority of Americans listen to. To posit otherwise suggests, I think, a major cognitive dissonance. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of wonderful academic articles writtein in opposition to the Iraq war, articles with great nuance and understanding of historical context, but they're dismissed before they've been read by an electorate that wants ten-second soundbites and slogans.
Of course, the hilarious irony of all this is that as soon as people on the left get fed up with trying to politely initiate some change and actually get angry, they're attacked for being elitist and unreasonable.
Also, I fail to see how any but the most selfish, willfully deluded individual could vote for Bush because of Michael Moore. Why? Out of principal? I'd suggest someone's principals are, you know, a little off if they apply to that annoying guy who keeps yelling about the world's problems and not the sociopathic one who causes a large number of them.
I know I'm a new member here and it's always bad form for new members to step on toes, but good god you preach like it's the Sunday sermon. This thread, and especially this one, just reek, man. And since both threads were aimed at new users such as myself, I feel I can take at least some umbrage.
Hey, they're not all bad! ;)
posted by The God Complex at 2:26 PM on November 24, 2004
Most of us long-time readers/new members have been living and dying with the exhaustive and exhausting political opining in the Blue for some time, just as m0nm0n points out. I, for one, am sorta glad I got in post-election -- my typing fingers were too promiscuous back then. Now, I rarely feel the need to jump in. Someone as (or just as often, more) articulate covers my point. It's why I love it.
posted by thinkpiece at 2:27 PM on November 24, 2004
posted by thinkpiece at 2:27 PM on November 24, 2004
First of all, it's pretty bad form for you to start a thread about how politics shouldn't be posted and then start talking about how you disagree with the politics. It's somewhat disingenuous.
We have a winner. It's funny how ulterior motives (or dare i call them "agendas"?) peek thru. ; >
y6, we've offered our tips and our email addresses, for advice, etc, and many if not all of the new folks know about MeTa, as opposed to many of the older folks. Your advice is good (more or less), but we're not actually sure it's needed yet. I have faith in, and am liking these newbies--they're articulate and eager, and already we're hearing new voices--it's wonderful. (Let them post, and then advise them, maybe? There'll be 7 million MeTa posts after they're all allowed to post to the front page anyway, no matter what advice is given.)
posted by amberglow at 2:38 PM on November 24, 2004
We have a winner. It's funny how ulterior motives (or dare i call them "agendas"?) peek thru. ; >
y6, we've offered our tips and our email addresses, for advice, etc, and many if not all of the new folks know about MeTa, as opposed to many of the older folks. Your advice is good (more or less), but we're not actually sure it's needed yet. I have faith in, and am liking these newbies--they're articulate and eager, and already we're hearing new voices--it's wonderful. (Let them post, and then advise them, maybe? There'll be 7 million MeTa posts after they're all allowed to post to the front page anyway, no matter what advice is given.)
posted by amberglow at 2:38 PM on November 24, 2004
Well fuck you guys then. I'll just go eat worms. I try to be helpful. I try to be nice. I even try to do it in a slightly amusing way. And this is the thanks I get. I give and give and give, and what I get in return is:
1) You logic is sloppy.
2) Fuck you for trying to help.
3) We're tired of YOU.
Well, isn't that just wonderful. God forbid I should care about users who might not be as savvy as you Internet uber gurus. Maybe I'm not talking to the jerks here who already know everything.
Thanks for shitting on me right before Thanksgiving. Thanks for that ray ofsunshine piss.
Where the hell did I say I was the arbiter of anything? I'm just a jack-off with an Internet connection. Just like you pissy little farts.
Ya, I'll shut up. You'll be happy then won't you? "Yes!!!! I made y6y6y6 cry." Happy now? Now that you've shit on something that makes me happy?
Don't care too much about MetaFilter people. It's a crime now.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:40 PM on November 24, 2004
1) You logic is sloppy.
2) Fuck you for trying to help.
3) We're tired of YOU.
Well, isn't that just wonderful. God forbid I should care about users who might not be as savvy as you Internet uber gurus. Maybe I'm not talking to the jerks here who already know everything.
Thanks for shitting on me right before Thanksgiving. Thanks for that ray of
Where the hell did I say I was the arbiter of anything? I'm just a jack-off with an Internet connection. Just like you pissy little farts.
Ya, I'll shut up. You'll be happy then won't you? "Yes!!!! I made y6y6y6 cry." Happy now? Now that you've shit on something that makes me happy?
Don't care too much about MetaFilter people. It's a crime now.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:40 PM on November 24, 2004
what mefi really is, is a place where people endlessly debate what mefi is.
The Metafilter that can be named is not the true Metafilter.
posted by hopeless romantique at 2:43 PM on November 24, 2004
The Metafilter that can be named is not the true Metafilter.
posted by hopeless romantique at 2:43 PM on November 24, 2004
I think you left the irony plugged in at home. Better turn around.
posted by Stan Chin at 2:43 PM on November 24, 2004
posted by Stan Chin at 2:43 PM on November 24, 2004
y6, are you honestly saying that it "makes you happy" to write these sententious little "Advice for New Users" posts and then go on and on in the threads that follow? Because, if so, dude, you've got to get a new hobby.
(And I say this on the day that I've been posting up a [slightly cranky] storm myself instead of doing any of the work which is waiting on my desk, and for which I will earn big cash.)
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:45 PM on November 24, 2004
(And I say this on the day that I've been posting up a [slightly cranky] storm myself instead of doing any of the work which is waiting on my desk, and for which I will earn big cash.)
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:45 PM on November 24, 2004
1) Your logic is sloppy.
not
1) You logic is sloppy.
Sorry about that. I'm just really hurt right now.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:48 PM on November 24, 2004
not
1) You logic is sloppy.
Sorry about that. I'm just really hurt right now.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:48 PM on November 24, 2004
y6^3: Looks like it's time to step away from the computer to destress the MeFi factor. Or get WoW and spend the rest of your time on that fighting the man. And by fighting to man, I mean throwing your laptop out the window because of lag. Plus, that way, you can get some of that thicker skin (different link- I swear).
posted by jmd82 at 2:48 PM on November 24, 2004
posted by jmd82 at 2:48 PM on November 24, 2004
Ya, I'll shut up. You'll be happy then won't you? "Yes!!!! I made y6y6y6 cry." Happy now? Now that you've shit on something that makes me happy?
Did it happen? Did y6 combust?
posted by Cranberry at 3:04 PM on November 24, 2004
Did it happen? Did y6 combust?
posted by Cranberry at 3:04 PM on November 24, 2004
eyeballkid scores a super slam with that 11/18 y6y6y6 quote.
As for me, well, y6y6y6 said "I'm confused by your accusation." I clarified it, and backed up my accusation - as it were - with data. Sorry it doesn't jive with your pre-conceived notions of clueless newbies who are chomping at the bit to post shitty Bushitler/Kerrytraitor threads and Mahir's home page, but c'est la vie.
I think you're a fine person. Just don't assume we're all dumbasses and we can be the very best of e-friends.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:13 PM on November 24, 2004
As for me, well, y6y6y6 said "I'm confused by your accusation." I clarified it, and backed up my accusation - as it were - with data. Sorry it doesn't jive with your pre-conceived notions of clueless newbies who are chomping at the bit to post shitty Bushitler/Kerrytraitor threads and Mahir's home page, but c'est la vie.
I think you're a fine person. Just don't assume we're all dumbasses and we can be the very best of e-friends.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:13 PM on November 24, 2004
Make that an extraordinarily cranky storm I've been posting today. If there's any of that skin-thickener left over, please shoot some my way!
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:32 PM on November 24, 2004
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:32 PM on November 24, 2004
Again, thanks for the pointers, but give us some credit.
Just don't assume we're all dumbasses and we can be the very best of e-friends.
Fuck that noise. y6 may have come off as talking down to new people, but he was clearly trying to be helpful, and if there are people who can't make a freakin' link joining, and many (if not the participants in this thread) seem to be semi-literate at best, and further, if there are clearly many members who have been here for much longer periods of time who still don't get it, then there was more than enough call for somebody to step up and offer a little friendly advice.
Assuming people are dumbasses is a pretty safe bet, sadly. Treating them like dumbasses isn't very nice, but then, y6 didn't do that.
You personally may be supersmart and totally hep to the MeFi Way, but chances are that your numerical neighbour may just need some helpful hints. And I applaud the y6 for making the attempt, rather than, as is inevitable, waiting until some new user made an egregious booboo and got unpleasantly Metatalked to within an inch of his or her life, only to slink off in shame and commit harakiri with a stale baguette or something.
Try and be just a little gracious, huh?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:34 PM on November 24, 2004
Just don't assume we're all dumbasses and we can be the very best of e-friends.
Fuck that noise. y6 may have come off as talking down to new people, but he was clearly trying to be helpful, and if there are people who can't make a freakin' link joining, and many (if not the participants in this thread) seem to be semi-literate at best, and further, if there are clearly many members who have been here for much longer periods of time who still don't get it, then there was more than enough call for somebody to step up and offer a little friendly advice.
Assuming people are dumbasses is a pretty safe bet, sadly. Treating them like dumbasses isn't very nice, but then, y6 didn't do that.
You personally may be supersmart and totally hep to the MeFi Way, but chances are that your numerical neighbour may just need some helpful hints. And I applaud the y6 for making the attempt, rather than, as is inevitable, waiting until some new user made an egregious booboo and got unpleasantly Metatalked to within an inch of his or her life, only to slink off in shame and commit harakiri with a stale baguette or something.
Try and be just a little gracious, huh?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:34 PM on November 24, 2004
Yes, yes, let us all do as the wonderchicken bides and give thanks! Thanks be to the heavens above for the y6, arbiter of ways here, self-proclaimed protector of the blue & gray (and occasionally green). Or not. I mean, let's be honest, he does come across as absurdly preachy. And y6, if you've had your feelings hurt by someone here, consider it a tiny fraction of the karmic payback for the number of unkind things you've said (unsolicited) about others here over the years.
posted by jonson at 3:44 PM on November 24, 2004
posted by jonson at 3:44 PM on November 24, 2004
I didn't call him a fucktard or whatever it is you kids get in fights over, I merely requested that he back up his generalization with some additional data. Recall that my first post in this thread just asked "How do you figure? How do you know?"
As for ifoughttheapemen, he has already been fined and censured by MeFite Babies Local 1104, so don't worry about him anymore.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:46 PM on November 24, 2004
As for ifoughttheapemen, he has already been fined and censured by MeFite Babies Local 1104, so don't worry about him anymore.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:46 PM on November 24, 2004
For the record, I should point out that I didn't have any problem with the original thrust of the thread, only some of the comments y6y6y6 made later in the thread (ones I responded to).
Also, it should be mentioned that I'm all for the reduction of the more egregious newsfilter-type posts. However, I also find the whining about said posts far more annoying.
posted by The God Complex at 3:46 PM on November 24, 2004
Also, it should be mentioned that I'm all for the reduction of the more egregious newsfilter-type posts. However, I also find the whining about said posts far more annoying.
posted by The God Complex at 3:46 PM on November 24, 2004
Try and be just a little gracious, huh, jonson? Or at least less of a dick. I didn't bid anyone give thanks, and preachy is in the ear of the beholder. I did a big *rolleyes* when I started reading this thread too, but y6 clearly made an effort to be kind, and you and others are pissing on him.
That's just being nasty, for no good reason, especially given that although many of our new folks do seem articulate and clever and clued-in to MeFi (as I said), many also emphatically do not. To paraphrase Saint Carlin, new users (or old, for that matter) are like any other group of people -- a few winners, and a whole lot of losers.
For the record, I should point out that I didn't have any problem with the original thrust of the thread, only some of the comments y6y6y6 made later in the thread (ones I responded to).
I'm with you there, kind of. Also, quonsar said a good thing.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:55 PM on November 24, 2004
That's just being nasty, for no good reason, especially given that although many of our new folks do seem articulate and clever and clued-in to MeFi (as I said), many also emphatically do not. To paraphrase Saint Carlin, new users (or old, for that matter) are like any other group of people -- a few winners, and a whole lot of losers.
For the record, I should point out that I didn't have any problem with the original thrust of the thread, only some of the comments y6y6y6 made later in the thread (ones I responded to).
I'm with you there, kind of. Also, quonsar said a good thing.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:55 PM on November 24, 2004
'oh life, how i have dreaded you,' said rhoda, 'oh, human beings, how i have hated you! how you have nudged, how you have interrupted, how hideous you have looked in oxford street, how squalid sitting opposite each other staring in the tube! now as i climb this mountain, from the top of which i shall see africa, my mind is printed with brown-paper parcels and your faces. i have been stained by you and corrupted. you smelt so unpleasant too, lining up outside doors to buy tickets. all were dressed in indeterminate shades of grey and brown, never even a blue feather pinned to a hat. none had the courage to be one thing rather than another. what dissolution of the soul you demanded in order to get through one day, what lies, bowings, scrapings, fluency and servility! how you chained me to one spot, one hour, one chair, and sat yourself down opposite! how you snatched from me the white spaces that lie between hour and hour and rolled them into dirty pellets and tossed them into the wastepaper basket with your greasy paws. yet those were my life.I think that's that.
'but i yielded. sneers and yawns were covered with my hand. i did not go out into the street and break a bottle in the gutter as a sign of rage. trembling with ardour, i pretended that i was not surprised.'
posted by The God Complex at 3:55 PM on November 24, 2004
I'm with you there, kind of.
I was perhaps a little vociferous, myself. I should have taken a ten count and been somewhat more measured in my response. For that perhaps I owe some form of apology, and so some shall be given: y6, cheer up, mate. Apologies if my response adversely effected your evening, and I appreciate your attempts to help the babarians at the gate.
posted by The God Complex at 3:59 PM on November 24, 2004
I was perhaps a little vociferous, myself. I should have taken a ten count and been somewhat more measured in my response. For that perhaps I owe some form of apology, and so some shall be given: y6, cheer up, mate. Apologies if my response adversely effected your evening, and I appreciate your attempts to help the babarians at the gate.
posted by The God Complex at 3:59 PM on November 24, 2004
I'm so bored with it now - all this bickering. I'll come in again tomorrow.
posted by dash_slot- at 4:28 PM on November 24, 2004
posted by dash_slot- at 4:28 PM on November 24, 2004
I'm still waiting for that list of "people who inevitably turn every thread into a discussion about how Canada is superior to the USA".
posted by timeistight at 5:23 PM on November 24, 2004
posted by timeistight at 5:23 PM on November 24, 2004
Well, some of us remember patronizing and snark when we were new (way back when), and would like to see it not happen this time. It's not the best way to make people feel welcome. y6 is a big boy, and can take it. We know he means well.
I think modeling good behavior and being supportive can be far more effective than dropping the delete hammer and editorializing--altho that might sound patronizing too. ; >
on preview: i'm actually liking that, time. it's nice to hear rah-rah from people other than us for a change, no?
posted by amberglow at 5:29 PM on November 24, 2004
I think modeling good behavior and being supportive can be far more effective than dropping the delete hammer and editorializing--altho that might sound patronizing too. ; >
on preview: i'm actually liking that, time. it's nice to hear rah-rah from people other than us for a change, no?
posted by amberglow at 5:29 PM on November 24, 2004
people have to search MeFi out, and then have to keep checking back to see if signups are going on (should they be so inclined to post, and not every lurker will), and then they have to pay to join. You are not dealing with teeming, ignorant masses who found MeFi via an AOL Keyword. We Did Not Just Get The Internet Yesterday.
Matt! I thought you promised that the new guys were going to have to climb the mountain of ice in iron shoes, launder the shirts of seven mining dwarves, bring back the waters of life and of death, answer the riddle of the sphinx, and kill mothra before they could join.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:39 PM on November 24, 2004
Matt! I thought you promised that the new guys were going to have to climb the mountain of ice in iron shoes, launder the shirts of seven mining dwarves, bring back the waters of life and of death, answer the riddle of the sphinx, and kill mothra before they could join.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:39 PM on November 24, 2004
SLoG: We had to do all that too, but I didn't want to complain. Or brag.
y6: It's a fact of life that if you put anything out in any sort of public venue you are bound to get some criticism on it. I'm hoping what I said didn't terribly distress you, but I wanted to honestly reply to what you had said. You were addressing the n00bs, and as one, I felt compelled. I meant to be nothing more than expository.
posted by m0nm0n at 6:22 PM on November 24, 2004
y6: It's a fact of life that if you put anything out in any sort of public venue you are bound to get some criticism on it. I'm hoping what I said didn't terribly distress you, but I wanted to honestly reply to what you had said. You were addressing the n00bs, and as one, I felt compelled. I meant to be nothing more than expository.
posted by m0nm0n at 6:22 PM on November 24, 2004
"I'm hoping what I said didn't terribly distress you"
Hey...... What that sound? Sounds sort of like...... chain yanking.
Congrats on being so clued in on how people act around here. "And this is the thanks I get. I give and give and give, and......" ??? That didn't tip you off? I couldn't think of anything more obvious.
jonson gets it. He knows me. The little spaz.
posted by y6y6y6 at 6:44 PM on November 24, 2004
Hey...... What that sound? Sounds sort of like...... chain yanking.
Congrats on being so clued in on how people act around here. "And this is the thanks I get. I give and give and give, and......" ??? That didn't tip you off? I couldn't think of anything more obvious.
jonson gets it. He knows me. The little spaz.
posted by y6y6y6 at 6:44 PM on November 24, 2004
jonson gets it. He knows me. The little spaz.
Jeez. Now I'm inclined to piss on y6 too. That'll be the last time I get on his side of a fight.
*unzips*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:54 PM on November 24, 2004
Jeez. Now I'm inclined to piss on y6 too. That'll be the last time I get on his side of a fight.
*unzips*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:54 PM on November 24, 2004
And now, oddly, I like y6 better. I swear to God, I don't think there's anyone here where I've gone back and forth in terms of my opinion of them as much as you. Jackass!
posted by jonson at 7:11 PM on November 24, 2004
posted by jonson at 7:11 PM on November 24, 2004
I PREDICT THIS SONG WILL FADE OUT
YES THIS SONG WILL FADE OUT
THIS SONG WILL FADE OUT
* stops abruptly, naturally *
posted by yhbc at 7:13 PM on November 24, 2004
YES THIS SONG WILL FADE OUT
THIS SONG WILL FADE OUT
* stops abruptly, naturally *
posted by yhbc at 7:13 PM on November 24, 2004
"And now, oddly, I like y6 better."
How about I buy y'all a beer Friday?
I actually started a comment that agreed the 1000+ thing was obviously BS, and admitted I'd probably taken the arbiter too far. Guilty as charged. I really am too full of myself many times.
But that seemed too boring. And m0nm0n was just asking for it. Sorry stavros. Collateral damge isn't fair.
For the record, it's pretty much impossible to hurt my feelings. My ego is too big for such things.
posted by y6y6y6 at 7:29 PM on November 24, 2004
How about I buy y'all a beer Friday?
I actually started a comment that agreed the 1000+ thing was obviously BS, and admitted I'd probably taken the arbiter too far. Guilty as charged. I really am too full of myself many times.
But that seemed too boring. And m0nm0n was just asking for it. Sorry stavros. Collateral damge isn't fair.
For the record, it's pretty much impossible to hurt my feelings. My ego is too big for such things.
posted by y6y6y6 at 7:29 PM on November 24, 2004
Oh noes! Someone is trying to pull a teh tricksy on me!
Well, whatever man. Hope you had your fun.
posted by m0nm0n at 7:33 PM on November 24, 2004
Well, whatever man. Hope you had your fun.
posted by m0nm0n at 7:33 PM on November 24, 2004
Mathowie: ...reserving it for major changes.
I think this is the key point. The first posts about Iraq were a good idea. The first posts about squashing liberties were a good idea. The first posts about election fraud were a good idea. But if you could add the words "continues to" to your post, it might not be a good idea.
I PREDICT MANY MANY MORE UNOFFICIAL ATTEMPTS BY Y63 TO SINGLE-HANDEDLY MOLD
So far, I agree with what y6 is saying, so make that "dual-handedly". I suspect there are many more hands involved as well.
Normally users are willing to lurk. These folks have taken positive action to show they want more.
I'm going to take a big guess and hope that it's not that most new users are champing at the bit to post politics, but that the ones that want to talk politics are posting more than us non-poli users. I know, for example, that I have a lot (a whole lot) more Meta posts than Mefi posts, but that's because, for the most part, I tend to take links as they stand in the blue, click, read, enjoy, and, unless I have a strong opinion on the link, keep my mouth shut. That means if it's a great, light-hearted link, I just read and enjoy, with no comments (I suppose I could say "Great link!" every time, but that's not much my style). Presumably, at least a few other of us new posters are the same, so we fly under the radar, and instead the poli posters stick out due to their verbosity. The true test will be when we all get FPP privileges, and, after some time has passed since we get them.
I say this because, as it mentions in the wiki, a good site on the web is not stumbled over everyday, and it may be weeks or months until some of us new posters find a site we think is Best of the Web to post in the blue. So even if 100 new posters all post politics, and nobody posts other links, it doesn't mean most new posters are necessarily poli folks.
Of course, unfortunately, functionally they're relatively equivalent.
m0nm0n: We Did Not Just Get The Internet Yesterday.
What I think y6 is worried about is us new folks who Just Got The Metafilter 6 Months Ago, and have skewed views of what it's about. At least one new user has said, "It often seemed to me while lurking since Springtime that MetaFilter was an American "liberal" discussion club...whose members might occasionally post threads about, well, doggie dildeaux." I suspect y6 is worried that a lot of us newbies have been reading for a long time, but not long enough to remember pre-polifilter. As us newbies in this particular thread seem to indicate, though, there are probably quite a few non-poli newbies.
I think you're a fine person. Just don't assume we're all dumbasses and we can be the very best of e-friends.
I wonder if some of the vitriol here is because some people assume that y6's post is directed at everyone here. Personally, I am a newbie, and I agree, but I didn't find it in any way condescending, because I didn't read it as directed at me.
Mefi is like a company tech workshop. It has engineers, apprentices, managers, and sales folk. Some know a lot of tech, some don't. But in a company tech workshop, when the presenter says "TCP stands for Transmission Control Protocol", hopefully, the people who know that don't get angry at the presenter for speaking down to them. They just assume that the statement was directed at the less techy people, and move on. If the people at the tech workshop disagree with what's being said, that's another matter entirely, but from what I can gather, not many people are disagreeing with what y6 is saying, just with the fact that he's saying something they already know.
Y6: First, keep your chin up, you're trying to do a good thing, and your first post is sufficiently humble and polite that you don't come off as a fucktard. Second, though, and I hate to say it, get a slightly thicker skin. People may have been responding negatively, but nobody's calling you a shitcock. Be disappointed, but not crushed.
On preview:
Congrats on being so clued in on how people act around here.
And you consider that to be a good thing?
Now I feel like the jerk for actually feeling sorry for y6. Way to burn good will. So, amend that to "I agree with what y6 says in his first post, though he's a jerk in some of his followups"
posted by Bugbread at 7:40 PM on November 24, 2004
I think this is the key point. The first posts about Iraq were a good idea. The first posts about squashing liberties were a good idea. The first posts about election fraud were a good idea. But if you could add the words "continues to" to your post, it might not be a good idea.
I PREDICT MANY MANY MORE UNOFFICIAL ATTEMPTS BY Y63 TO SINGLE-HANDEDLY MOLD
So far, I agree with what y6 is saying, so make that "dual-handedly". I suspect there are many more hands involved as well.
Normally users are willing to lurk. These folks have taken positive action to show they want more.
I'm going to take a big guess and hope that it's not that most new users are champing at the bit to post politics, but that the ones that want to talk politics are posting more than us non-poli users. I know, for example, that I have a lot (a whole lot) more Meta posts than Mefi posts, but that's because, for the most part, I tend to take links as they stand in the blue, click, read, enjoy, and, unless I have a strong opinion on the link, keep my mouth shut. That means if it's a great, light-hearted link, I just read and enjoy, with no comments (I suppose I could say "Great link!" every time, but that's not much my style). Presumably, at least a few other of us new posters are the same, so we fly under the radar, and instead the poli posters stick out due to their verbosity. The true test will be when we all get FPP privileges, and, after some time has passed since we get them.
I say this because, as it mentions in the wiki, a good site on the web is not stumbled over everyday, and it may be weeks or months until some of us new posters find a site we think is Best of the Web to post in the blue. So even if 100 new posters all post politics, and nobody posts other links, it doesn't mean most new posters are necessarily poli folks.
Of course, unfortunately, functionally they're relatively equivalent.
m0nm0n: We Did Not Just Get The Internet Yesterday.
What I think y6 is worried about is us new folks who Just Got The Metafilter 6 Months Ago, and have skewed views of what it's about. At least one new user has said, "It often seemed to me while lurking since Springtime that MetaFilter was an American "liberal" discussion club...whose members might occasionally post threads about, well, doggie dildeaux." I suspect y6 is worried that a lot of us newbies have been reading for a long time, but not long enough to remember pre-polifilter. As us newbies in this particular thread seem to indicate, though, there are probably quite a few non-poli newbies.
I think you're a fine person. Just don't assume we're all dumbasses and we can be the very best of e-friends.
I wonder if some of the vitriol here is because some people assume that y6's post is directed at everyone here. Personally, I am a newbie, and I agree, but I didn't find it in any way condescending, because I didn't read it as directed at me.
Mefi is like a company tech workshop. It has engineers, apprentices, managers, and sales folk. Some know a lot of tech, some don't. But in a company tech workshop, when the presenter says "TCP stands for Transmission Control Protocol", hopefully, the people who know that don't get angry at the presenter for speaking down to them. They just assume that the statement was directed at the less techy people, and move on. If the people at the tech workshop disagree with what's being said, that's another matter entirely, but from what I can gather, not many people are disagreeing with what y6 is saying, just with the fact that he's saying something they already know.
Y6: First, keep your chin up, you're trying to do a good thing, and your first post is sufficiently humble and polite that you don't come off as a fucktard. Second, though, and I hate to say it, get a slightly thicker skin. People may have been responding negatively, but nobody's calling you a shitcock. Be disappointed, but not crushed.
On preview:
Congrats on being so clued in on how people act around here.
And you consider that to be a good thing?
Now I feel like the jerk for actually feeling sorry for y6. Way to burn good will. So, amend that to "I agree with what y6 says in his first post, though he's a jerk in some of his followups"
posted by Bugbread at 7:40 PM on November 24, 2004
Sorry, but I read m0nm0n as "mormon", which results in natural defensive hatred.
I'll try to read more carefully in the future to avoid an embarrassing situation.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:53 PM on November 24, 2004
I'll try to read more carefully in the future to avoid an embarrassing situation.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:53 PM on November 24, 2004
Dammit, y6 has already fessed and I have no chance to post my "Why you bastards - I came home and found y6 weeping into a hanky, surrounded by empty tequila bottles - what have you done?!!! You heartless beasts!"
*snicker*
Yes, he's a cranky devil, but he does give a damn about the place.
And you all know this all would have been said soon enough, probably within a month, when someone posted something and someone else felt the need to call them out in here. Now it's already been said without intended attack on an individual, so the callout will have to be a tad more creative.
Or so one can hope.
I mean, it's not like this all hasn't been said, bit by bit, for the crowd that already hangs about in here - and it's not like everyone absorbs the message. (Or - what the wonderchicken said earlier.)
posted by batgrlHG at 9:07 PM on November 24, 2004
*snicker*
Yes, he's a cranky devil, but he does give a damn about the place.
And you all know this all would have been said soon enough, probably within a month, when someone posted something and someone else felt the need to call them out in here. Now it's already been said without intended attack on an individual, so the callout will have to be a tad more creative.
Or so one can hope.
I mean, it's not like this all hasn't been said, bit by bit, for the crowd that already hangs about in here - and it's not like everyone absorbs the message. (Or - what the wonderchicken said earlier.)
posted by batgrlHG at 9:07 PM on November 24, 2004
How about I buy y'all a beer Friday?
John, if you're there, I'm definitely in. Shame more of the people I've spoken with (for better or worse) here don't live close enough that we couldn't all meet at least once. I'd be curious to see if crash or yhbc or stan chin are as funny in person as they are in print, or if languagehat was as smart/contemplative, etc. The difference between how someone comes across in their writings and what they're really like is a fascinating subject.
posted by jonson at 10:16 PM on November 24, 2004
John, if you're there, I'm definitely in. Shame more of the people I've spoken with (for better or worse) here don't live close enough that we couldn't all meet at least once. I'd be curious to see if crash or yhbc or stan chin are as funny in person as they are in print, or if languagehat was as smart/contemplative, etc. The difference between how someone comes across in their writings and what they're really like is a fascinating subject.
posted by jonson at 10:16 PM on November 24, 2004
People like Michael Moore, who bring the level of discourse down to a manageable, but--let's be honest--intellectually questionable level are the only people the majority of Americans listen to.
You're kidding, right? Moore does not pose as the Voice of God, nor does he tell us how to Make Money Fast or Gain More Inches (or their political equivalent, Protect Our Big TVs From Osama Hussein). Yeah, for an egotistical blowhard with an agenda he is enviably admirably successful, but that also means there's no need to exaggerate on his behalf.
"People like Michael Moore" maybe, if you mean "blowhards with agendas of whatever kind who've figured out how to get people to pay to listen to them" (unlike most of us opinionizers on this Internets thingy). But if you mean Mr. Moore himself, or if he's a big factor in your guesstimate, I think you're way off.
[Oh. In case anybody's wondering, my first original MetaFilter post and probably several subsequent ones are more likely to be about Sex and Drugs and Rock-&-Roll than anybody's election or politics per se. Even though, or maybe because, in 1978 my local Yippie chapter pretty much threw me out for for being "too radical fringe".]
posted by davy at 10:29 PM on November 24, 2004
You're kidding, right? Moore does not pose as the Voice of God, nor does he tell us how to Make Money Fast or Gain More Inches (or their political equivalent, Protect Our Big TVs From Osama Hussein). Yeah, for an egotistical blowhard with an agenda he is
"People like Michael Moore" maybe, if you mean "blowhards with agendas of whatever kind who've figured out how to get people to pay to listen to them" (unlike most of us opinionizers on this Internets thingy). But if you mean Mr. Moore himself, or if he's a big factor in your guesstimate, I think you're way off.
[Oh. In case anybody's wondering, my first original MetaFilter post and probably several subsequent ones are more likely to be about Sex and Drugs and Rock-&-Roll than anybody's election or politics per se. Even though, or maybe because, in 1978 my local Yippie chapter pretty much threw me out for for being "too radical fringe".]
posted by davy at 10:29 PM on November 24, 2004
Be nice to y6.
That said, distancing yourself from Michael Moore has become some sort of liberal cottage industry. In these times when he's the only one doing some of what he's doing, I don't see that he has anything to be ashamed of.
posted by inksyndicate at 7:10 AM on November 25, 2004
That said, distancing yourself from Michael Moore has become some sort of liberal cottage industry. In these times when he's the only one doing some of what he's doing, I don't see that he has anything to be ashamed of.
posted by inksyndicate at 7:10 AM on November 25, 2004
Mefi is like a company tech workshop. It has engineers, apprentices, managers, and sales folk.
Ok, I'll play. Who do you see as filling these roles?
Or--better yet!-- Let's play "Metafilter is a Noir Film." Who Is:
The slap-happy cop?
The sultry bad girl?
The thick-headed thug?
The eye-candy cigarette girl?
The bad luck good guy?
The binge drinking socialite?
The prize fighter gone astray?
The Dame with great gams?
The wise old geezer?
The gum-chewing waitress?
The eager beaver reporter?
The loyal gal Friday?
The clueless boyfriend?
The sexy client with a hidden agenda?
The sexually suspect club owner?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:28 AM on November 25, 2004
Ok, I'll play. Who do you see as filling these roles?
Or--better yet!-- Let's play "Metafilter is a Noir Film." Who Is:
The slap-happy cop?
The sultry bad girl?
The thick-headed thug?
The eye-candy cigarette girl?
The bad luck good guy?
The binge drinking socialite?
The prize fighter gone astray?
The Dame with great gams?
The wise old geezer?
The gum-chewing waitress?
The eager beaver reporter?
The loyal gal Friday?
The clueless boyfriend?
The sexy client with a hidden agenda?
The sexually suspect club owner?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:28 AM on November 25, 2004
The reporter who chronicles the comments made by all the characters?
posted by jonson at 2:29 PM on November 25, 2004
posted by jonson at 2:29 PM on November 25, 2004
That said, distancing yourself from Michael Moore has become some sort of liberal cottage industry. In these times when he's the only one doing some of what he's doing, I don't see that he has anything to be ashamed of.
I like Michael Moore. I like his films. His intellectual honesty is still questionable, however.
posted by The God Complex at 2:58 PM on November 25, 2004
Sorry about that. I'm just really hurt right now.
Well, you know, as well intentioned as you may be, not everyone is going to read something you wrote and feel exactly how you want them feel. m0m0n made some very good points and you're starting to sound like a drama queen.
Your post was informative and well phrased, but a lot of it is common discussion board conduct. I realize you were well-intentioned, but the depth of some your "hints to new users" could be constrewed as condescending.
Not everyone's going to like what you have to say -- regardless of how well-intentioned it is. It's a fact of life.
posted by Dark Messiah at 3:15 PM on November 25, 2004
Well, you know, as well intentioned as you may be, not everyone is going to read something you wrote and feel exactly how you want them feel. m0m0n made some very good points and you're starting to sound like a drama queen.
Your post was informative and well phrased, but a lot of it is common discussion board conduct. I realize you were well-intentioned, but the depth of some your "hints to new users" could be constrewed as condescending.
Not everyone's going to like what you have to say -- regardless of how well-intentioned it is. It's a fact of life.
posted by Dark Messiah at 3:15 PM on November 25, 2004
Lighten up Messiah. He was pulling our legs.
posted by timeistight at 3:32 PM on November 25, 2004
posted by timeistight at 3:32 PM on November 25, 2004
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In short - The policy is that there is no policy.
The longer version:
I'm just a lover of MetaFilter. I'm not an official spokesperson. I don't have any special insight into what Matt wants. For the most part Matt hasn't approved, or even dignified with a response, any of the "MeFi policy" opinions I've made over the years. Many people here rightly take me to task for my long-winded pontificating about what MetaFilter is or should be. I don't speak for anyone but myself.
I'm just an attention grabbing member (pun intended) with some strong opinions. And I admit right up front that this gives me no more credibility that the 3000+ other active users here. I'm wrong a great deal of the time. Consider me helpful at your peril.
But here's what I think - I think political posts are fine as long as they meet the following criteria:
1) Their volume doesn't crowd out the new, interesting, wouldn't have seen otherwise, best-of-the-web stuff. A few political gems are good. More than a few gets ugly real quick.
2) They do indeed cover something new and noteworthy. We have a habit of beating these topics into the ground. Having more than one post about something political here is wankery. This isn't a discussion board. It's a place for new things, new ideas. That's the ideal anyway.
3) It's not an op-ed, offers facts rather than rumor, and at least makes an attempt to be fair and balanced. A political thread is bound to turn into a screaming match at some point. We don't do these topics well. At the very least a political thread should be, on it's face, worth the bother.
4) Any agenda or ax-grinding is kept to a minimum. Burning down your own thread by starting things off with a few gas cans tossed in the fire is bad. Please don't make MetaFilter your blog/soapbox.
5) You understand your thread is on borrowed time. If Matt sees it and it's not pure gold, he'll certainly consider deleting it. If it gets deleted, please just get over it. Seriously. Don't try posting it again with new links. Don't drag it into MetaTalk so we can say the same things we've said about every other deleted political post.
We want to learn something new from a political post. We want to gain some insight into those who sit on the other side of the fence. We want a thought provoking discussion. Please try and *not* make a post that you know will just turn into a name-calling slap fight.
So when engaging in one of these political posts:
1) Try to keep "shut up", "fuck off", "just like a liberal", and "just like a conservative" to a minimum. If all you have to offer to the debate is a snarky put-down, please don't. We know you're mad. We know you hate them/us. We know it's hard. Please be constructive. Please?
2) Don't shout down the other side. The only way these political threads have any value is if we get to hear both sides. If it's just the usual suspects agreeing on the usual talking points then it's not worth the bother. If you can't have an open mind, or offer a reasonable rebuttal. Please don't comment.
3) Yell at your cat. Pound your head on your keyboard. Piss on your floor. Go ahead. Do it right now. Wasn't that silly? Didn't you look like an idiot? Are you laughing at how foolish that was? So please don't do the same sort of thing in your comments. Very few of us are actually in grade school. We can act like adults.
Matt has said many times about political threads that it isn't what he wanted MetaFilter to be about. He's said that he doesn't like them. He's said that he's tempted to ban them altogether. But he's also said the sometimes they're pretty good. At the end of the day it seems his desire to avoid rules and policy have won out.
He lets them be posted in moderation. Many people here seem to think even that level of "censorship" is wrong. But to my thinking this is a bit selfish. Matt's the host, and he'd be perfectly within his rights to kill the site off at any time. The least we can do is learn to accept his SOP for political posts - They exist in a grey area, and if they aren't done well they're likely to get deleted.
These aren't rules. You won't get any rules. That's a good thing.
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:06 AM on November 24, 2004