Where's the line on product-related content?

January 11, 2005 8:06 PM

MetaShillter: there's never been a deficit of accusations regarding the use of MeFi to push product. Many legitimate Best o' the Web posts contain product-related content. While it's clearly contra-Matt if you profit from a post, where's the fine line?
posted by cosmonik to etiquette/policy at 8:06 PM (51 comments total)

referring to product [does not equal sign] pushing product.

referring to product [does not equal sign] profiting from product.

referring to product [does not equal sign] shilling.
posted by mudpuppie at 8:26 PM on January 11, 2005

I remember Mathowie himself making an apple post, so I think you're on te losing side of this one.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:29 PM on January 11, 2005

(cosmo, you're not on a side, right? just asking? i gotcha.)
posted by mudpuppie at 8:32 PM on January 11, 2005

Matt has deleted AppleFilter posts before.
posted by NortonDC at 8:36 PM on January 11, 2005

I'm on a side? Methinks not. I balance atop a eternally rolling sphere, a-la an elite circus bear.

Space Coyote: so Apple products are okay? If Creative Labs was releasing a new Nomad, would it be equally as innocent/appalling?

It was a genuine inquiry into what the MeFi community believes is acceptable reference to products in a post.
posted by cosmonik at 8:44 PM on January 11, 2005

referring to product [does not equal sign] pushing product.

It does if you're marketing scum posing as a member. People (I use the term loosely) are paid to do this. With exactly 1 front page post to your name, you could be one of them for all we know.

referring to product [does not equal sign] profiting from product.

It sure can. See above.

referring to product [does not equal sign] shilling.

You've got a point on this one, sometimes, but it's a case-by-case thing. And the cost of coming down too hard on some is worth the risk of letting others take advantage of us.

What's your beef here? You just woke up this morning and decided to stick up for product shilling on MetaFilter? It's easy to find something to fight for in this day and age, but here's some advice: find something *worth* fighting for.
posted by scarabic at 8:45 PM on January 11, 2005

Oh, and I think the expression you're looking for is !=
posted by scarabic at 8:46 PM on January 11, 2005

i'm not fighting for anything. i'm just saying that referring to a product in a post doesn't necessarily mean you're a shill for that product. i happen to think this product makes for some hilarious discussion, but i'm not getting kickbacks for mentioning it.

in the miss lynnster post that was originally referenced, people jumped on her for pointing to a site that was, well, commercial. it's potential commercialism became bigger than its potential interestingism.

all i'm saying is that the two aren't mutually exclusive.

and, i have no idea how to make the [does not equal sign], except for on paper, but now i've learned something. thanks.
posted by mudpuppie at 8:53 PM on January 11, 2005

(that's the second time today i've done the it's/its thing. i flog myself.)
posted by mudpuppie at 8:54 PM on January 11, 2005

With exactly 1 front page post to your name, you could be one of them for all we know.

Sort of harsh, given that in fact mudpuppie has four posts, none of which are close to shill.
posted by rustcellar at 8:55 PM on January 11, 2005

These are all case by case things.

And scarabic, there have been a couple of flame wars today, though curiously, the thread about ad jingles, citing many examples, seems to have been completely avoided.

Go figure.
posted by chicobangs at 8:59 PM on January 11, 2005

mudpuppie - you sure that's not you on the left on the flowbee page?

FWIW, I wasn't saying one automatically equals the other, either. Nor was scarabic. While it's true that referring to a product does not absolutely equal (=) any of the three things you mentioned, it can in certain circumstances. There seems to be some divide over what those circumstances are, rather than the hard n' fast rules (/laws) you suggested in your first post.
posted by cosmonik at 9:00 PM on January 11, 2005

agreed: it's case by case.

i'm just saying that referring to a commerical site or product does not automatically make you a shill.

still, some people are assholes.

so there.
posted by mudpuppie at 9:04 PM on January 11, 2005

I despise the AppleFilter crap. If someone were to do the same with a Microsoft product, shit would hit the fan pronto. But Apple? Golden light pours from Job's ass, it seems.

Note that I criticize not the Apple products, but the fact that we've got dueling standards.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:26 PM on January 11, 2005

Footnote: I'd be perfectly happy to ne'er see another product-centric front page link.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:27 PM on January 11, 2005

I think Apple's funny (and more lucky than smart), and I find the unswerving loyalty of its aficionados deliciously culty.

I'm not a big fan of product posts in general, basically because I don't buy many things. But I'm not particularly agitated about the one in question. Although the ensuing arguments never seem to go there, I think it's an interestingly deep well to draw from; the tension between function and fetish, design and dollar signs. The 'Apple question' is just a bucket.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:39 PM on January 11, 2005

"fuck you, you corporate shill?" What the fuck is that?

Can people calm the fuck down and try and attempt, just this once, to act like civilized human beings?

Seriously, I think a week's worth of time off for many folks that are shitting in every thread is in order.

Posts can sometimes mention a product, or even hinge on a product, but that doesn't automatically make them bad, or shills, or fake, or worth shitting all over and insulting others. Every single post that is remotely about something will inevitably have a comment of someone making a pepsi blue joke.

If you're making a pepsi blue joke, don't. Stop. Back away from the keyboard.
posted by mathowie at 9:42 PM on January 11, 2005

If someone were to do the same with a Microsoft product, shit would hit the fan pronto. But Apple?

Show me an inventive, clever, or just plain original Microsoft idea, and I'm sure a decent post could be written about it. I can't recall ever deleting anything MS related, so I think the "double standard" is in your head.

I'd be perfectly happy to ne'er see another product-centric front page link.

And a lot of others seem to feel that way, so they mock the poster and the post incessantly in every thread about a product. I'm stating that it's wrong to do that and brings the whole site down when people openly shit on others for supposed shill-ness.

I judge what stays and goes, always have, and I delete stuff that is over the top. I've found dozens of folks connected to their posts and removed them all. The other stuff that is about a product isn't necessarily a shill and if you want to raise the issue, do it in MetaTalk, not metafilter, please.
posted by mathowie at 9:46 PM on January 11, 2005

I haven't seen a community board since the early 80s that didn't have an OS preference. And every one of them had a vocal minority that argued against that preference.

From the guidelines: "A good post to MetaFilter is something that meets the following criteria: (1) most people haven't seen it before, (2) there is something interesting about the content on the page, and (3) it might warrant discussion from others."

New products posts meet (1), (2) and (3). And the key to (2)? "I judge what stays and goes, always have, and I delete stuff that is over the top."
posted by ?! at 10:09 PM on January 11, 2005

Actually I confused mudpuppie and cosmonik for the same person, thought MP's comment was a [more-inside] kinda thing. My bad.

But basically, even with the best intentions, my point is that marketers live to amuse you. Even if you are a clever internet nerd someone out there (believe it or not) has your market dialed and is selling products targeted at you. That same instinct to say "hey check this out! it's funny/interesting!" is the exact response they live and labor to create. They have large budgets. Helping them is a poor use of MetaFilter.

If your post is going to play directly into one of their campaigns, it better damn well be worth it. That's all I can say. Single-link posts to 10-second-laugh products are llllame, and only serve to enhance these morons' Google indexing. Post responsibly. Think beyond the simple fact that you thought it scored a 6 on the funny scale for all of 7.1 seconds.
posted by scarabic at 10:19 PM on January 11, 2005

Linking to new Mac stuff sucks, because it's all over the internet long before it ends up here. I don't know why most Macintosh posts stay for so long, but I've never seen a post on metafilter that pointed to something really cool that Bill Gates was up to.

I agree, macfilter is a lousy site. But there's always the option of not clicking on a link.

A couple of years ago, I was standing in a line in a bank, getting really angry about how long everyone in front of me was taking.

Then I had a magical epiphany: I can not control the people in front of me in a line, and getting angry about them only makes me feel shitty. So, why not decide intentionally not to feel angry when standing in a line?
posted by interrobang at 10:22 PM on January 11, 2005

Puh-lease. Let's not pretend the Apple post was anything but the plainest Pepsi-blue product promotion. You couldn't escape the media about it today, which makes it particularly inappropriate for MetaFilter. PepsiPoliticoNewsFilter at its worst.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:27 PM on January 11, 2005

You couldn't escape the media about it today, which makes it particularly inappropriate for MetaFilter.

Hear, hear.
posted by interrobang at 10:43 PM on January 11, 2005

I dont understand. How it can be a gratuituous product shill and a major news announcement at the same time? Which is it?

I found about it first through this article in the NY Times Technology Section and figured it was on its way here.

here seems to be some divide over what those circumstances are, rather than the hard n' fast rules (/laws) you suggested in your first post.

There are no hard and fast rules here. It always seems that people are asking for them or want them badly and cant navigate with any uncertainty. Many Metatalk posts can be distilled down to "What are the rules about..." with an attempt to grasp at consensus.

Thats fine, as long as there is valuable discussion on both sides with the realization that this is a grey area. But once people plant their feet down, stake their territory and start getting nasty, there is no discussion and now they are just trying to bully the other side. Once you do that, I'd say you're becoming part of the problem.
posted by vacapinta at 11:24 PM on January 11, 2005

How it can be a gratuituous product shill and a major news announcement at the same time?

The business pages are not the most erudite in the paper.
posted by scarabic at 11:41 PM on January 11, 2005

Thank you for your direct commentary, mathowie, I think we could all use more of it in these times of easily shooting people down.

I would advise all users to go back and look at the posts and commentary from 2000-2002. Therein, I believe, lies the true spirit of the site and how a community can work.
posted by spaghetti at 11:57 PM on January 11, 2005

Metafilter: Shilli-ness.
posted by seanyboy at 12:00 AM on January 12, 2005

Microsoft Creating New Palo Alto

Microsoft Announces Music Service

Microsoft Alters .NET Strategy

Microsoft Tablet PC

It's not just Mac love. Lots of people on this site like geeky, tech toys. When geeky tech toys are announced, they're going to want to talk about them. It's the same thing for big movies that come out or other major cultural events.

It's not MetaFilter's primary goal, but it's inevitable and largely benign. It's certainly less annoying (to me at least) than people trying to shout the things down in thread. Shouting shit down in threads seems to be a much bigger violation of MetaFilter/MetaTalk's intent, and it's why people think we're all a bunch of prissy uptight a-holes.

And, scarabic I am a marketer, so feel free to dismiss my opinion. Still, if marketers are going to invest time and resource into creating something entertaining, then there's nothing wrong with actually being entertained by it. It's free entertainment. So what if it helps some company somewhere maybe get a little extra mindshare? It's no different than pointing somebody to a web page that's advertising supported (You know -- like MetaFilter itself is?). If it's entertaining, then I want to be entertained. It's a simple as that.
posted by willnot at 12:21 AM on January 12, 2005

It's free entertainment

no it isn't.
posted by mr.marx at 1:49 AM on January 12, 2005

Yet another candidate for worst post ever, up for your perusal.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:40 AM on January 12, 2005

And the same user even posted the same thing in the lengthy Mac thread. Hmmph. Sure likes that picture, he does!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 2:44 AM on January 12, 2005

Referring to miss lynnster's post, I had no idea that the website in the post was connected to any corporation or product... until I read the thread. I just thought it was a link to a neato website, with a fun interface and a peculiar story/character-type thing... which is basically what it was (whether you enjoyed it or not). I didn't watch all five episodes for each character or click on every yellow dot. But I still found it to be rather interesting.

People seem to have the hardest time around here lately, thinking an issue through completely before freaking out and making call-outs. It's obvious to me that miss lynnster posted a link to that website because of the website itself... not the fact that it had anything to do with Mercury. Her post met the criteria listed in the posting guidelines. Her post was something that was very inherent to the web and not just a link to an ordinary product advertisement.

The folks here at Metafilter are pretty damn good an sniffing out bullshit. So when someone makes an FPP that is obviously an attempt to draw attention to a particular product, to increase a products visibility or to create a buzz don't worry - Metafilter will be on the case in no time and stamp that shit out.
posted by Witty at 3:09 AM on January 12, 2005

Puh-lease. Let's not pretend the Apple post was anything but the plainest Pepsi-blue product promotion. You couldn't escape the media about it today, which makes it particularly inappropriate for MetaFilter. PepsiPoliticoNewsFilter at its worst.

Five fresh fish, I think it's time that you get over the fact that our metafilter is not the same beast it once was. We live in interesting times, unfortunately, which means that PepsiPoliticoNewsFilter is important to us and worth discussing, if not simply to get things off our chest. Computers affect almost every aspect of our lives, from driving to alarm clocks to music to refridgerators to our leisure time to our social lives to ad nauseum. These things are intertwined with our lives in ways that are often unnoticed, yet they affect us directly - so directly that I think that when we are talking about the latest Mac product, we're not talking about a "product" but about a way of life. Metafilter, by its very nature, points to things that display different ways of life: from cutesy animals to man-digging-hole-in-backyard to origami cd sleeves to fun flash games to awesome artwork. I really think that some links to products (ie the meet the lucky ones for mercury link earlier today) is okay, just as it's okay to link to some books, movies and ad campains and so on.
posted by ashbury at 5:49 AM on January 12, 2005

Linking to new Mac stuff sucks, because it's all over the internet long before it ends up here. I don't know why most Macintosh posts stay for so long, but I've never seen a post on metafilter that pointed to something really cool that Bill Gates was up to.
posted by interrobang at 10:22 PM PST on January 11

Someone should try linking to something "really cool that Bill Gates was up to." Although, it may be difficult to find such a thing.

It seems that threads here go to 100+ comments when the post is of interest to the community and people want to talk about the topic. So what? There have been many long threads here about topics that didn't interest me. I didn't click on them and I didn't comment in them. I also didn't go to MetaTalk and complain about them.

I'd be curious to see a post about a legitimate, interesting, innovative product that Microsoft came up with. And I'd be curious to read what others thought about it. And I'm sure Matt would let it stay.

(Also, thanks Matt for your voice of reason in this thread.)
posted by evoo at 6:35 AM on January 12, 2005

Linking to new Mac stuff sucks, because it's all over the internet long before it ends up here.

Did Steve Jobs' speech get leaked to the internets ahead of time, hmm? I thought the call-and-response rate was pretty swift on this one.

I am deeply in love with my future iShuffle and don't care who knows it. Thanks, MetaFilter, for bringing us together!
posted by naomi at 7:01 AM on January 12, 2005

I'm not against links to products in general, but to me this was just a link to a semi-clever ad for an overexposed corporation. The post has pretty much devolved into a "do you like / hate Macs" discussion. After all, what are you suppossed to say about the ad? Well done, I guess, but not more so than a lot of what's out there.
posted by xammerboy at 7:03 AM on January 12, 2005

Show me an inventive, clever, or just plain original Microsoft idea

How does this describe a small form factor PC and an mp3 player?

Did Steve Jobs' speech get leaked to the internets ahead of time, hmm?

Every product in it was leaked ahead of time.
posted by NortonDC at 7:05 AM on January 12, 2005

But who would believe such fantastically magical rumors?

A $99 mp3 player no bigger than a pack of gum? What will those crazy kids think up next...
posted by naomi at 7:24 AM on January 12, 2005

You're joking, right?

number 1

number 2
posted by NortonDC at 7:47 AM on January 12, 2005

Funny. This reminds me of a snark I made just after joining Metafilter and reading my first AppleFilter complaint in MeTa.

That was before I got my iPod, quit my job at a PC company, sold my PCs and bought Macs and now am a huge Apple fanboy.
posted by birdherder at 8:27 AM on January 12, 2005

Puh-lease. Let's not pretend the Apple post was anything but the plainest Pepsi-blue product promotion. You couldn't escape the media about it today.

Sure you could. Turn off the TV and computer and go to the park.

I kid, I kid.
posted by FlamingBore at 8:28 AM on January 12, 2005

Linking to new Mac stuff sucks, because it's all over the internet long before it ends up here. I don't know why most Macintosh posts stay for so long, but I've never seen a post on metafilter that pointed to something really cool that Bill Gates was up to.
posted by interrobang at 10:22 PM PST on January 11

Some really cool things Bill Gates has been up to. There.
posted by jtron at 9:24 AM on January 12, 2005

April 16, 2000? Old news jtron. Delete please. And ban him.
posted by puke & cry at 9:33 AM on January 12, 2005

Old news jtron. Delete please. And ban him.

Does jtron have a daughter, by any chance?
posted by Danelope at 10:25 AM on January 12, 2005

There have been a number of FPP that hilight the shenagins of politicians, individuals, organizations, and corporations. The thread in question is no different in my humble opinion.

Apple markets an outrageously poor performing box and pretends it is inexpensive for what you get. It's an old story I know but it needs to be told. They're no different than a thousand other companies in this regard and such was quickly pointed out in the thread. But perspectives and needs vary so you get those who adore it and those who think it's absurd. It's perfect for some and a waste for others.

Nice to see different perspectives. Lack of respect is not nice to see but it happens. I've mates and colleagues who use all manner of computers and operating systems and its never an issue.
posted by juiceCake at 11:21 AM on January 12, 2005

Can people calm the fuck down and try and attempt, just this once, to act like civilized human beings?

In that vein, the whole decapitating daughters thing is getting rather annoying.
Could we move on to some new, less violent catchphrase, please?
posted by me3dia at 11:46 AM on January 12, 2005

You know what? I'm tired of all your partisan Apple politiks. This place is a fucking echo chamber!!?!@!$!@!%^%@#


In that vein, the whole decapitating daughters thing is getting rather annoying.
Could we move on to some new, less violent catchphrase, please?

*elegantly snuffs your family with a pillow while they sleep, real horrorshow like*

Do you viddy what I'm getting at with what, oh my brother? ;P
posted by The God Complex at 12:08 PM on January 12, 2005

Or maybe you could oobivat with some drencrom - just leave the nozh in your domy.
posted by taz at 1:05 PM on January 12, 2005

You have shamed me with your superior linguistic martial arts, taz. I feel as if I've has a bit of the old ultra-violence done on my yarbles :S
posted by The God Complex at 5:35 PM on January 12, 2005

So... what constitutes a "shill"? I contribute a fair amount that has nothing to do with products I'm affiliate with. Can I post something cool and commercial that a family member has done / is doing? A friend? My cat? Is there an actual definition somewhere?
posted by Caviar at 9:59 AM on January 13, 2005

Can I post something cool and commercial that a family member has done / is doing?

No.

If it's the best of the web, then someone without the incestuously close connection will post it, freeing you to post about the other 99.99999999999999% of things on the web that you don't have a stake in.
posted by NortonDC at 5:29 PM on January 15, 2005