Askme posts disappearing rapidly off the front page January 15, 2004 7:50 PM Subscribe
AskMe threads are disappearing off the front page at high speed as floods of new questions come in. It seems to me that a good many questions could have been answered had the question-asker put a bit more effort into googling. What are we to do?
mathowie has stated several times that AskMe is a work in progress. Maybe we should just relax and give him time to work on it?
posted by Galvatron at 8:12 PM on January 15, 2004
posted by Galvatron at 8:12 PM on January 15, 2004
I know any second now there will be someone popping in to disclaim that everyone's google fu is weak in subjects about which they know little to nothing. I don't, personally, agree -- it's easy enough for a bumpkin like me to read up a bit on the first pass of results, gain some more nomenclature, and take a second shot at it, wash, rinse, repeat -- but the essential point is still valid: People who have ineffective search and research habits aren't going to stop being ineffective when it's so very much easier to Ask something. Telling people how trivial the question is to answer, even with teaching the man to fish, isn't going to stem the tide.
And it is worth noting that one man's "expert" question is another man's "generalist with luck/guts/search skillz" question. Not to mention the LocalFilter stuff, which I think is of varying worth depending on how close to the Bay Area it is (and apparently the New Yorkers, UKranians and Canadeers feel somewhat similarly from the way it's playing out).
Question quality is very much in the eye of the beholder, and it's going to be really ugly trying to come to a consensus as to what the chaff is, let alone what to do about it.
posted by majick at 8:13 PM on January 15, 2004
And it is worth noting that one man's "expert" question is another man's "generalist with luck/guts/search skillz" question. Not to mention the LocalFilter stuff, which I think is of varying worth depending on how close to the Bay Area it is (and apparently the New Yorkers, UKranians and Canadeers feel somewhat similarly from the way it's playing out).
Question quality is very much in the eye of the beholder, and it's going to be really ugly trying to come to a consensus as to what the chaff is, let alone what to do about it.
posted by majick at 8:13 PM on January 15, 2004
I love AskMeFi but have also noticed many fairly pedestrian posts recently (tech support, help with baby names, etc.) I've wondered if it would be possible to implement some kind of worthiness rating system whereby if enough users clicked a "Geez, didja try anything else first?" button, the question would drop off the front page.
posted by Tubes at 9:02 PM on January 15, 2004
posted by Tubes at 9:02 PM on January 15, 2004
One of the primary goals of the recoding and redesign of ask metafilter is to surface the archives as much as possible, so the same questions aren't asked, or at the very least people can easily find old tech support questions, etc.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:08 PM on January 15, 2004
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:08 PM on January 15, 2004
Maybe we should just relax and give him time to work on it?
It's nothing about what Matt needs to do. It's about what we folk should be doing as partizens in all this.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:12 PM on January 15, 2004
It's nothing about what Matt needs to do. It's about what we folk should be doing as partizens in all this.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:12 PM on January 15, 2004
hmmm... if it takes 30 minutes of googling for one person to find the right answer to a question..
or say 5 minutes of googling to get a good idea of what you're up against, 2 minutes to search and post to ask.me, and 2 minutes for someone else to answer it...
If all it takes up is a slot on the front page, given it's an otherwise OK question, is the google snarkiness really needed? Especially when you don't know how trustworthy the googled results might be..
posted by Space Coyote at 9:21 PM on January 15, 2004
or say 5 minutes of googling to get a good idea of what you're up against, 2 minutes to search and post to ask.me, and 2 minutes for someone else to answer it...
If all it takes up is a slot on the front page, given it's an otherwise OK question, is the google snarkiness really needed? Especially when you don't know how trustworthy the googled results might be..
posted by Space Coyote at 9:21 PM on January 15, 2004
OMG! WE PUT UP A SITE WHERE PEOPLE CAN ASK QUESTIONS, AND NOW THEY'RE FUCKING DOING IT!
HOW CAN WE FIX THIS?
posted by quonsar at 11:02 PM on January 15, 2004
HOW CAN WE FIX THIS?
posted by quonsar at 11:02 PM on January 15, 2004
matt: "to surface the archives as much as possible"
q: "HOW CAN WE FIX THIS?"
MetaFAQ! : the most frequently asked questions on the entire web.
posted by mischief at 2:56 AM on January 16, 2004
q: "HOW CAN WE FIX THIS?"
MetaFAQ! : the most frequently asked questions on the entire web.
posted by mischief at 2:56 AM on January 16, 2004
I don't see what the problem is.
When I googled for the lyrics of a particular silly Christmas song, I came up with absolutely nothing. Not realizing I should have tried closer to Christmas, I put the question to askmeta and I had my answer in minutes.
And again and again I point out that there is nothing like personal experience...it is one thing to google how to do something, it is another to talk to someone who has actually done it.
Mefi: where nothing happens without being bitched about.
posted by konolia at 4:33 AM on January 16, 2004
When I googled for the lyrics of a particular silly Christmas song, I came up with absolutely nothing. Not realizing I should have tried closer to Christmas, I put the question to askmeta and I had my answer in minutes.
And again and again I point out that there is nothing like personal experience...it is one thing to google how to do something, it is another to talk to someone who has actually done it.
Mefi: where nothing happens without being bitched about.
posted by konolia at 4:33 AM on January 16, 2004
Hey, as long as we're bitching, can we nip "AxMe" in the bud?
posted by sageleaf at 5:04 AM on January 16, 2004
posted by sageleaf at 5:04 AM on January 16, 2004
a good many questions could have been answered had the question-asker put a bit more effort into googling
Can you please cite specific examples of this in the past, say, 48 hours?
help with baby names, etc
Now, see, I thought this was a great question which generated many great answers.
Also, I agree with sageleaf -- 'AxMe' (I can hardly even bring myself to type it) is stupid and offensive.
posted by anastasiav at 5:39 AM on January 16, 2004
Can you please cite specific examples of this in the past, say, 48 hours?
help with baby names, etc
Now, see, I thought this was a great question which generated many great answers.
Also, I agree with sageleaf -- 'AxMe' (I can hardly even bring myself to type it) is stupid and offensive.
posted by anastasiav at 5:39 AM on January 16, 2004
There are two separate problems. 1) Things roll off the Ask Me page too quickly. 2) Some of the questions could've been answered from an appropriate google search.
The second problem isn't really a problem the way I see it. I haven't seen very many questions yet where somebody in the know couldn't have googled for a few minutes. The whole point of Ask Me is that you're probably not an expert in the area you're asking about. You don't know the nomenclature and even if you manage to learn a few words you might not know enough to glean the useful bits from the useless bits.
Some questions are better than others but I suppose each persons opinion of which are better and which are others will vary. Anastasiav likes questions about baby names, maybe you don't.
posted by substrate at 5:50 AM on January 16, 2004
The second problem isn't really a problem the way I see it. I haven't seen very many questions yet where somebody in the know couldn't have googled for a few minutes. The whole point of Ask Me is that you're probably not an expert in the area you're asking about. You don't know the nomenclature and even if you manage to learn a few words you might not know enough to glean the useful bits from the useless bits.
Some questions are better than others but I suppose each persons opinion of which are better and which are others will vary. Anastasiav likes questions about baby names, maybe you don't.
posted by substrate at 5:50 AM on January 16, 2004
I haven't seen very many questions yet where somebody in the know couldn't have googled for a few minutes.
Really? The majority of questions seem ungoogleable to me, since they're calls for actual judgment.
I don't think google could do an at all useful job of recommending a book to you, helping you integrate a foundling kitten into your life, discuss an MLS with you along the things you're interested in, locate high-quality US-made jeans, tell you whether or not something in Spanish is a silly game or actual merchandising, recommend (or disrecommend) emachines laptops, and so on.
Yes, you might be able to find a page that has some information on some of this -- ie, a rant page of someone's experience with an emachines laptop, or ratings on some ratings page. But surely we all know that those are mostly crap; either selection biases in action or they're hijacked by sockpuppets from the firms themselves -- it's not going to be actually useful in the way that a recommendation from an actual person you've actually interacted with (or at least seen here) can be.
Google is good for "Who was king of England in 1439?" or "How do they make aluminum?" or "What conference papers are citing my work?" -- simple factual stuff. For stuff involving human judgment, google is no substitute for talking to people that you're at least reasonably certain aren't just sockpuppets for industry firms.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:28 AM on January 16, 2004
Really? The majority of questions seem ungoogleable to me, since they're calls for actual judgment.
I don't think google could do an at all useful job of recommending a book to you, helping you integrate a foundling kitten into your life, discuss an MLS with you along the things you're interested in, locate high-quality US-made jeans, tell you whether or not something in Spanish is a silly game or actual merchandising, recommend (or disrecommend) emachines laptops, and so on.
Yes, you might be able to find a page that has some information on some of this -- ie, a rant page of someone's experience with an emachines laptop, or ratings on some ratings page. But surely we all know that those are mostly crap; either selection biases in action or they're hijacked by sockpuppets from the firms themselves -- it's not going to be actually useful in the way that a recommendation from an actual person you've actually interacted with (or at least seen here) can be.
Google is good for "Who was king of England in 1439?" or "How do they make aluminum?" or "What conference papers are citing my work?" -- simple factual stuff. For stuff involving human judgment, google is no substitute for talking to people that you're at least reasonably certain aren't just sockpuppets for industry firms.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:28 AM on January 16, 2004
I don't think google could do an at all useful job of ... helping you... locate high-quality US-made jeans...
I used google to do exactly that several months ago.
posted by ursus_comiter at 7:04 AM on January 16, 2004
I used google to do exactly that several months ago.
posted by ursus_comiter at 7:04 AM on January 16, 2004
"Why is 'AxMe' offensive?"
It sounds like you're verbally challenged.
posted by Blue Stone at 7:20 AM on January 16, 2004
It sounds like you're verbally challenged.
posted by Blue Stone at 7:20 AM on January 16, 2004
ROU_Xenophobe, for your googling pleasure.
Just about anything is able to be gleaned from a search engine or library. The beauty of Ask Me is that while maybe somebody can do some leg work for you because they know the right magic words to use there might already be somebody who's been through the process. Maybe the first link, while seemingly in context is also out to lunch. Ask Me is less like a reference desk and more like a watercooler.
posted by substrate at 7:21 AM on January 16, 2004
Just about anything is able to be gleaned from a search engine or library. The beauty of Ask Me is that while maybe somebody can do some leg work for you because they know the right magic words to use there might already be somebody who's been through the process. Maybe the first link, while seemingly in context is also out to lunch. Ask Me is less like a reference desk and more like a watercooler.
posted by substrate at 7:21 AM on January 16, 2004
It sounds like you're verbally challenged.
No, I'm not. Why the insulting tone?
I'm just confused who is supposed to be offended by 'AxMe'. What's the deal?
posted by dhoyt at 7:24 AM on January 16, 2004
No, I'm not. Why the insulting tone?
I'm just confused who is supposed to be offended by 'AxMe'. What's the deal?
posted by dhoyt at 7:24 AM on January 16, 2004
'AxMe' (I can hardly even bring myself to type it) is stupid and offensive.
if your black neighbor stopped by and said "let me ax you a question", would you find that stupid and offensive? would you say so? or is this another one of those secret code words that only certain folk may utter without guilt?
"yo, homes, don't be axin' me dat shizzle!"
posted by quonsar at 7:29 AM on January 16, 2004
if your black neighbor stopped by and said "let me ax you a question", would you find that stupid and offensive? would you say so? or is this another one of those secret code words that only certain folk may utter without guilt?
"yo, homes, don't be axin' me dat shizzle!"
posted by quonsar at 7:29 AM on January 16, 2004
I agree, AxMe is stupid, but offensive? I don't think so.
I thought PC was dead, but that takes it to a new level.
posted by mischief at 7:42 AM on January 16, 2004
I thought PC was dead, but that takes it to a new level.
posted by mischief at 7:42 AM on January 16, 2004
I think of it as simply "Ask", but there is support for AxMe. Which, by the way, is easily discovered with a Google search.
posted by theora55 at 7:44 AM on January 16, 2004
posted by theora55 at 7:44 AM on January 16, 2004
I love AskMeFi but have also noticed many fairly pedestrian posts recently (tech support, help with baby names, etc.)
As the person who asked the initial baby name question, I have to say we are down to two names now. One of the two names came from the AskMeTa Question I posted and does not exist in any name database anywhere on the net. Another name that made it to our top 5, also came from the AskMeTa question (and I think is fair to say, would never have been found by us independently):
One of the coolest girls' names I ever came across belonged to a girl I dated in high school. Her name was Sirkka - it's Finnish onomatopaeia for the sound that crickets make. [Thanks starvingartist! We thought this was very cool, maybe our next daughter :-) ]
I guess this just demonstrates that one person's holy grail answer (wow! thanks all who responded, we are so happy with these final two!) is another person's "pedestrian" waste of front page space. For us, this AskMeTa question will be part of our lives, for the rest of our lives-- and I think that is extremely cool!
And yes, as soon as the final two becomes the-final-omg-this-is-your-name-kiddo one, I'll let everyone know, and thanks again!
posted by limitedpie at 7:46 AM on January 16, 2004
As the person who asked the initial baby name question, I have to say we are down to two names now. One of the two names came from the AskMeTa Question I posted and does not exist in any name database anywhere on the net. Another name that made it to our top 5, also came from the AskMeTa question (and I think is fair to say, would never have been found by us independently):
One of the coolest girls' names I ever came across belonged to a girl I dated in high school. Her name was Sirkka - it's Finnish onomatopaeia for the sound that crickets make. [Thanks starvingartist! We thought this was very cool, maybe our next daughter :-) ]
I guess this just demonstrates that one person's holy grail answer (wow! thanks all who responded, we are so happy with these final two!) is another person's "pedestrian" waste of front page space. For us, this AskMeTa question will be part of our lives, for the rest of our lives-- and I think that is extremely cool!
And yes, as soon as the final two becomes the-final-omg-this-is-your-name-kiddo one, I'll let everyone know, and thanks again!
posted by limitedpie at 7:46 AM on January 16, 2004
>I'm just confused who is supposed to be offended by 'AxMe'. What's the deal?
"Aks" and "ask" have been floating around for decades, maybe centuries, alternating as accepted pronunciations. You run into more ks clusters that sk clusters so the ks is more familliar and might be easier to produce.
While we're on this topic, that Gallic Green Bay quarterback should be called Fav-re, not Farv.
posted by philfromhavelock at 7:51 AM on January 16, 2004
"Aks" and "ask" have been floating around for decades, maybe centuries, alternating as accepted pronunciations. You run into more ks clusters that sk clusters so the ks is more familliar and might be easier to produce.
While we're on this topic, that Gallic Green Bay quarterback should be called Fav-re, not Farv.
posted by philfromhavelock at 7:51 AM on January 16, 2004
"Aks" and "ask" have been floating around for decades, maybe centuries, alternating as accepted pronunciations.
Hmmm, that doesn't really answer the question of who is supposed to be offended, and why.
posted by dhoyt at 7:57 AM on January 16, 2004
Hmmm, that doesn't really answer the question of who is supposed to be offended, and why.
posted by dhoyt at 7:57 AM on January 16, 2004
Not to interrupt this fascinating exploration of yet another offensive usage, but on the google-fu issue....It would be great if a convention developed whereby answerers provided their search strategy, a la Google Answers.
Not only would this help users become better educated about research over time, but it would enable answerers to specify whether their answer is based on opinion, FOAF-type hearsay, or personal experience. And the universality of it would reduce the potential snark factor.
My NY resolutions re: AskMetafilter are: 1) When I ask a question, I'm going to follow up with "how it turned out," where appropriate 2) I'm going to source my answer, within reason. Who's with me?
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 8:06 AM on January 16, 2004
Not only would this help users become better educated about research over time, but it would enable answerers to specify whether their answer is based on opinion, FOAF-type hearsay, or personal experience. And the universality of it would reduce the potential snark factor.
My NY resolutions re: AskMetafilter are: 1) When I ask a question, I'm going to follow up with "how it turned out," where appropriate 2) I'm going to source my answer, within reason. Who's with me?
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 8:06 AM on January 16, 2004
AxMe: gosh who'd have thought that was racially offensive, I just thought it was aesthetically offensive.
I though the baby name thread was good too, and think i might even use Sirkka myslef should I ever breed.
Having said that I agree that some questions have been just plain lazy. Off the top of my head I recall a travel question which could have been addressed by googling 'name of country' and 'guide'.
posted by biffa at 8:28 AM on January 16, 2004
I though the baby name thread was good too, and think i might even use Sirkka myslef should I ever breed.
Having said that I agree that some questions have been just plain lazy. Off the top of my head I recall a travel question which could have been addressed by googling 'name of country' and 'guide'.
posted by biffa at 8:28 AM on January 16, 2004
Since I brought up axing "ax," let me just also say I can't stand when people mispronounce "accessory."
My dictionary does not say it's okay to pronounce 'ask' as 'ax.' That's all.
posted by sageleaf at 8:43 AM on January 16, 2004
My dictionary does not say it's okay to pronounce 'ask' as 'ax.' That's all.
posted by sageleaf at 8:43 AM on January 16, 2004
Hearing people say "AxMe" is offensive reminds me of a decade or so ago when people were first starting to substitue "African-American" for "Black", and hearing people (mostly white) suggest that "Black" was offensive.
If, in the interest of racial harmony, we focus on eradicating "Black" and "Ax", then we are missing the bigger picture. There are really alot more important battles to fight than "Ax" vs "Ask".
posted by vito90 at 8:50 AM on January 16, 2004
If, in the interest of racial harmony, we focus on eradicating "Black" and "Ax", then we are missing the bigger picture. There are really alot more important battles to fight than "Ax" vs "Ask".
posted by vito90 at 8:50 AM on January 16, 2004
It would never have occurred to me that "AxMe" was some sort of parody of black speech.
Re: "recommend (or disrecommend) emachines laptops" -- see ePinions as a start. Also, google emachine laptop OR notebook review OR opinion.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:09 AM on January 16, 2004
Re: "recommend (or disrecommend) emachines laptops" -- see ePinions as a start. Also, google emachine laptop OR notebook review OR opinion.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:09 AM on January 16, 2004
Okay, how did you use google to find high-quality US-made jeans? Getting a list of jeans-manufacturers in the US is easy. Finding a page with opinions about different brands is probably also easy enough, but that doesn't get you any assurance of actual high quality. Why on earth would you trust anything you saw on an epinions-or-similar page, knowing that each and every firm has every incentive to have a bored intern create a jillion sockpuppets and post positive evaluations of their jeans and awful complaints about other brands?
Ditto with feral kittens, as substrate notes, or for laptops. There's lots of stuff on the web, and about half of it is vaguely true, and half of that is out to lunch. For almost anything that google can return on questions like these, it'll be near-impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff.
There's real value in asking people what they think about something in a setting where opinions are being bounced off each other in real time, where the odds of sockpuppets showing up are near zero, and where you can ask along the particular dimensions that are important to you. For this, google won't be able to help you apart from helping you ask a more focused question.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:20 AM on January 16, 2004
Ditto with feral kittens, as substrate notes, or for laptops. There's lots of stuff on the web, and about half of it is vaguely true, and half of that is out to lunch. For almost anything that google can return on questions like these, it'll be near-impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff.
There's real value in asking people what they think about something in a setting where opinions are being bounced off each other in real time, where the odds of sockpuppets showing up are near zero, and where you can ask along the particular dimensions that are important to you. For this, google won't be able to help you apart from helping you ask a more focused question.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:20 AM on January 16, 2004
>>It sounds like you're verbally challenged.
>No, I'm not. Why the insulting tone?
dhoyt, I wasn't saying YOU were verbally chalenged! I menat it sounds like one is verbally challenged when saying axme instead of askme; like you can't pronounce "ask".
As far as the "it's offensive" comment, I assumed (I may have misinterpreted anistasiav's meaning) the sentiment was that it offended the sensibilities, not that it was racially offensive, which of course, if anything, it'd be the reverse ... surely!
posted by Blue Stone at 9:27 AM on January 16, 2004
>No, I'm not. Why the insulting tone?
dhoyt, I wasn't saying YOU were verbally chalenged! I menat it sounds like one is verbally challenged when saying axme instead of askme; like you can't pronounce "ask".
As far as the "it's offensive" comment, I assumed (I may have misinterpreted anistasiav's meaning) the sentiment was that it offended the sensibilities, not that it was racially offensive, which of course, if anything, it'd be the reverse ... surely!
posted by Blue Stone at 9:27 AM on January 16, 2004
I menat it sounds like one is verbally challenged
Ah. Gotcha. ;)
Looks like anastasiav is the only one who can solve this riddle.
posted by dhoyt at 9:42 AM on January 16, 2004
Ah. Gotcha. ;)
Looks like anastasiav is the only one who can solve this riddle.
posted by dhoyt at 9:42 AM on January 16, 2004
Okay, how did you use google to find high-quality US-made jeans? Getting a list of jeans-manufacturers in the US is easy. Finding a page with opinions about different brands is probably also easy enough, but that doesn't get you any assurance of actual high quality. Why on earth would you trust anything you saw on an epinions-or-similar page, knowing that each and every firm has every incentive to have a bored intern create a jillion sockpuppets and post positive evaluations of their jeans and awful complaints about other brands?
Epinions? Never useful. I usually screen out such sites in my search criteria. But you can usually find a number of blogs and websites that have specific interests that are pretty readily discerned as being legit or not that address what you're looking for. news.google.com is pretty handy too. It's really not that hard to do if you have any critical reading skills.
Lots of googling, lots of cross checking. Not really very hard to do, IMHO.
That doesn't negate the potential value of AskMe, but the claim that Google can't help with the likes of what was listed above is a real eye-roller.
posted by ursus_comiter at 9:51 AM on January 16, 2004
Epinions? Never useful. I usually screen out such sites in my search criteria. But you can usually find a number of blogs and websites that have specific interests that are pretty readily discerned as being legit or not that address what you're looking for. news.google.com is pretty handy too. It's really not that hard to do if you have any critical reading skills.
Lots of googling, lots of cross checking. Not really very hard to do, IMHO.
That doesn't negate the potential value of AskMe, but the claim that Google can't help with the likes of what was listed above is a real eye-roller.
posted by ursus_comiter at 9:51 AM on January 16, 2004
It would never have occurred to me that "AxMe" was some sort of parody of black speech.
indeed - I thought it was an imitation of scriptkiddie talk.
posted by Mars Saxman at 10:00 AM on January 16, 2004
indeed - I thought it was an imitation of scriptkiddie talk.
posted by Mars Saxman at 10:00 AM on January 16, 2004
I really don't see what the problem is here. So what if I can Google up an answer to someone's question in 2 minutes? A good answer is a good answer.
As far as the problem of questions scrolling off the page too quickly, I'm happy to wait to see what mathowie comes up with in release 1.0.
posted by timeistight at 10:11 AM on January 16, 2004
As far as the problem of questions scrolling off the page too quickly, I'm happy to wait to see what mathowie comes up with in release 1.0.
posted by timeistight at 10:11 AM on January 16, 2004
I don't think AxMe is offensive, but when I hear words like that mispronounced in real life I can't help but think that the individual is uneducated. I also hate hearing people say "dis", "dat" and a whole host of other mispronunciations that are done on purpose. I can understand it as part of a saying but when a persons normal way of phrasing "I need to ask you about this, is it better than that?" would be "I need to ax you about dis, is it better than dat?" it just annoys me.
I'll make exceptions for actual speech impediments.
posted by substrate at 10:33 AM on January 16, 2004
I'll make exceptions for actual speech impediments.
posted by substrate at 10:33 AM on January 16, 2004
I don't think AxMe is offensive, but when I hear words like that mispronounced in real life I can't help but think that the individual is uneducated
Or they merely have an accent. Plenty of New Yorkers of all races, even those with advanced degrees, have been heard to say the ocassional "Ax" "Dese," "Dose," "sawr" and "youse guys." It's merely regional speech.
I remeber reading somewhere that you could be a gutter wino, but if you spoke with an English accent, people would assume you're intelligent; but you could be a Nobel Prize winning physicist or international banker (like my brooklyn-born uncle, who still retains his accent) but if you have a New York accent, people will assume you're an idiot.
posted by jonmc at 10:45 AM on January 16, 2004
Or they merely have an accent. Plenty of New Yorkers of all races, even those with advanced degrees, have been heard to say the ocassional "Ax" "Dese," "Dose," "sawr" and "youse guys." It's merely regional speech.
I remeber reading somewhere that you could be a gutter wino, but if you spoke with an English accent, people would assume you're intelligent; but you could be a Nobel Prize winning physicist or international banker (like my brooklyn-born uncle, who still retains his accent) but if you have a New York accent, people will assume you're an idiot.
posted by jonmc at 10:45 AM on January 16, 2004
sageleaf: use of "ax" instead of "ask" is indeed common among african americans, but this doesn't automatically make it lower-class or bad. You'll find that some highly educated people still do it. You want to stick by the dictionary. This makes you a proscriptivist, one who believes in a "right way" and wants to support it. Most linguists, however, know enough to know that this is a largely arbitrary and untenable position over time, since many of the words now found in your dictionary are modifications/innovations based on earlier (now archaic) forms. Where do you set your standard? The OED is descriptive, not proscriptive, and now includes all kinds of words that people just *use.* Is "D'oh" any more correct than "ax?" What about "Often?" Do you pronounce the T or not? Which is "right?"
In any case, adopting "AxMe" because it happens to fit the four-letter, two-up, two-down naming convention of the MetaFilter sites (MeFi and MeTa) is not only expedient and inventive, but fun, since it incorporates a slang form. I fail to see how anyone is being hurt by this, especially any african americans.
Choosing an afro-american slang form for the nickname of our beloved site is hardly offensive. What is offensive is a proscriptive tightwad barging in and claiming that any usage of an african american slang form *must* be derogatory, and that the name sounds "stupid." This simultaneously tries to insult and defend the people who say "ax" instead of "ask" in the real world.
posted by scarabic at 11:07 AM on January 16, 2004
In any case, adopting "AxMe" because it happens to fit the four-letter, two-up, two-down naming convention of the MetaFilter sites (MeFi and MeTa) is not only expedient and inventive, but fun, since it incorporates a slang form. I fail to see how anyone is being hurt by this, especially any african americans.
Choosing an afro-american slang form for the nickname of our beloved site is hardly offensive. What is offensive is a proscriptive tightwad barging in and claiming that any usage of an african american slang form *must* be derogatory, and that the name sounds "stupid." This simultaneously tries to insult and defend the people who say "ax" instead of "ask" in the real world.
posted by scarabic at 11:07 AM on January 16, 2004
IIRC, the devaluing of speakers with accents perceived as low-status was the basis of a Lenny Bruce routine: Einstein with a country southern accent: "I want to talk to you boys about this here nuk-klee-are fishin..." "Gwan, get the **** outta here, you ignorant Redneck..."
Which is why, while I wouldn't get my undies in a bunch on the issue, I'd never use AxMe.
I am, I believe, the only person who used AMF, undoubtably more barbarous.
posted by mojohand at 11:16 AM on January 16, 2004
Which is why, while I wouldn't get my undies in a bunch on the issue, I'd never use AxMe.
I am, I believe, the only person who used AMF, undoubtably more barbarous.
posted by mojohand at 11:16 AM on January 16, 2004
I read somewhere recently that "ax" was an acceptable alternate spelling and (presumably) pronunciation for "ask" well into the sixteenth century, which is how it came to America.
I tried Googling for the page but couldn't find it … maybe I should start an AxMe thread?
posted by timeistight at 11:20 AM on January 16, 2004
I tried Googling for the page but couldn't find it … maybe I should start an AxMe thread?
posted by timeistight at 11:20 AM on January 16, 2004
AskMe is a page for those who have questions to ask.
AxMe would be a page for those who want to be chopped to bits with axes.
Sheesh.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:42 AM on January 16, 2004
AxMe would be a page for those who want to be chopped to bits with axes.
Sheesh.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:42 AM on January 16, 2004
scarabic: Scroll up. I never said anything about offensive, and I did not mention race at all.
posted by sageleaf at 11:46 AM on January 16, 2004
posted by sageleaf at 11:46 AM on January 16, 2004
adopting "AxMe" because it happens to fit the four-letter, two-up, two-down naming convention of the MetaFilter sites (MeFi and MeTa) is not only expedient and inventive, but fun
...except that the whole "MeFi" and "MeTa" thing is silly and kind of embarassing to begin with. "AxMe" is even worse, since it isn't even an abbreviation. This is clearly a matter where reasonable people may hold differing opinions, however...
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:28 PM on January 16, 2004
...except that the whole "MeFi" and "MeTa" thing is silly and kind of embarassing to begin with. "AxMe" is even worse, since it isn't even an abbreviation. This is clearly a matter where reasonable people may hold differing opinions, however...
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:28 PM on January 16, 2004
From Ask a Linguist:
jonmc, scarabic: Well said.
posted by languagehat at 12:37 PM on January 16, 2004
"ax" is the original Old English pronunciation of the verb. Already in Old English the reversed order "ask" ("sk" instead of "ks = x") was used by many people, but "ask" never succeeded in totally eliminating "aks" for all English speakers. Throughout the subsequent history of English we find speakers and writers who use "ax". It is the form used, in the spelling "ax", by William Caxton in 15th century England. Caxton was the first printer of English, and recognised the problem of variant forms of English and of what to select to reach the largest audience. In his time and place "ax" was such a normal pronunciation that he did not hesitate to use it in publishing, and did not even consider it a particular problem , given much more serious problems like whether to use "eggs" or "eyren" (as you guess, "eggs" later won out over "eyren"). Although later publishers selected the "ask" form, "aks" remains the usual form in speech in some areas of England and also in the US. Once authorities selected "ask" as the official form, at the expense of "ax", it became "non-standard" and thus a marker of varieties of English less influenced by the written standard and the educational system that insists upon it. The colloquial English spoken by perhaps the majority of African Americans is only one of many varieties in which the ancient "ax" pronunciation still survives.Let me repeat for the hard of reading: "ax" is the original form. So will all you snobs please find another hobbyhorse?
jonmc, scarabic: Well said.
posted by languagehat at 12:37 PM on January 16, 2004
sageleaf, sorry if it seemed like all my comments were all directed at you. I did actually have several folks comments in mind and I must have blended them together. The only thing I should have addressed to you personally was dictionary proscriptivism. Not out to get you, promise.
posted by scarabic at 12:56 PM on January 16, 2004
posted by scarabic at 12:56 PM on January 16, 2004
Ax me: A golden rule in similar situations is to ask would one say that in front of a stranger on the bus or in a store--in this case, a black man or woman on the bus or in the store--and what would be the result if one did? Right or wrong, historic precedents aside, is it possible someone could easily misunderstand and take offense?
When it comes to imitating the speech of other races, it depends on context, and whether one is funny enough to bring it off. In my experience, neither the context or comedic talents necessary are particularly commonplace.
We do have black men and women on this particular bus, and I, for one, would appreciate they would chime in on such topics when they come up here. In this case, do you find it annoying or amusing to hear people who are not black say things like shizzle my nizzle or ax me?
So, languagehat, on a similar topic, I was told the pronuciation of vase as 'vahz' was a hyper-correction on the part of people who thought that 'vahz' was the way the upperclasses pronounced vase, when they said vaze--rhymes with maze--just like everyone else. Is this true? And, if so, is the preference of a substantial proportion of african-americans to say 'ont' for 'aunt'--where white people generally say 'ant'--another retention of the original pronunciation or is this a hyper-correction?
posted by y2karl at 1:03 PM on January 16, 2004
When it comes to imitating the speech of other races, it depends on context, and whether one is funny enough to bring it off. In my experience, neither the context or comedic talents necessary are particularly commonplace.
We do have black men and women on this particular bus, and I, for one, would appreciate they would chime in on such topics when they come up here. In this case, do you find it annoying or amusing to hear people who are not black say things like shizzle my nizzle or ax me?
So, languagehat, on a similar topic, I was told the pronuciation of vase as 'vahz' was a hyper-correction on the part of people who thought that 'vahz' was the way the upperclasses pronounced vase, when they said vaze--rhymes with maze--just like everyone else. Is this true? And, if so, is the preference of a substantial proportion of african-americans to say 'ont' for 'aunt'--where white people generally say 'ant'--another retention of the original pronunciation or is this a hyper-correction?
posted by y2karl at 1:03 PM on January 16, 2004
Oops, I mean vase rhymes with face, I think. I was hemi-hyper correcting there.
posted by y2karl at 1:06 PM on January 16, 2004
posted by y2karl at 1:06 PM on January 16, 2004
I've always taken "ont" as a hypercorrection, and while I find it embarrassing personally, I'm not the language police. (Much as I might like to be at times.)
Hypercorrection (is that yr term, y2k?) leads some interesting places, both in late-19th century African America and on the Indian subcontinent. I do believe, for example, that it's the former tradition responsible for lovely embellishments like "Mr. Dr. Professor Longhair." Along the same lines, I saw a paper once, somewhere online, that included a transcript of introductory remarks to an 189? American Negro Benevolent And Fraternal Order meeting, which were gorgeous.
Of course, I can't remember enough about it even to Google it. Hmm. Maybe I'll ax.
posted by adamgreenfield at 1:33 PM on January 16, 2004
Hypercorrection (is that yr term, y2k?) leads some interesting places, both in late-19th century African America and on the Indian subcontinent. I do believe, for example, that it's the former tradition responsible for lovely embellishments like "Mr. Dr. Professor Longhair." Along the same lines, I saw a paper once, somewhere online, that included a transcript of introductory remarks to an 189? American Negro Benevolent And Fraternal Order meeting, which were gorgeous.
Of course, I can't remember enough about it even to Google it. Hmm. Maybe I'll ax.
posted by adamgreenfield at 1:33 PM on January 16, 2004
Indians don't say "ant", we say "'a'nt", which is different from "ont".
posted by riffola at 2:02 PM on January 16, 2004
posted by riffola at 2:02 PM on January 16, 2004
African American Vernacular English (Ebonics)
She Talkded the Talk and Walkded the Walk:
Convergence of Sound and Meaning in AAVE Language and Culture
"The African American Rhetorical Tradition"
by Valerie Balester
I found the above Googling for for Fancy Talk. Surely languagehat has some links on this topic.
Plus I just learned flexitarian (noun, a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.) and freegan (noun, person who eats only what they can get for free.) from here. I suspect that, languagehat, like myself, is a potential Collyer (noun, in New York City, a person trapped under their own collected debris in their apartment.) Whoo hoo!
posted by y2karl at 2:11 PM on January 16, 2004
She Talkded the Talk and Walkded the Walk:
Convergence of Sound and Meaning in AAVE Language and Culture
"The African American Rhetorical Tradition"
by Valerie Balester
I found the above Googling for for Fancy Talk. Surely languagehat has some links on this topic.
Plus I just learned flexitarian (noun, a vegetarian who occasionally eats meat.) and freegan (noun, person who eats only what they can get for free.) from here. I suspect that, languagehat, like myself, is a potential Collyer (noun, in New York City, a person trapped under their own collected debris in their apartment.) Whoo hoo!
posted by y2karl at 2:11 PM on January 16, 2004
As seen on Futurama, "ask" will be pronounced "axe" in the future.
posted by kindall at 2:13 PM on January 16, 2004
posted by kindall at 2:13 PM on January 16, 2004
and kind of embarassing to begin with.
not unlike a virulent skin rash, eh mars?
posted by quonsar at 2:56 PM on January 16, 2004
not unlike a virulent skin rash, eh mars?
posted by quonsar at 2:56 PM on January 16, 2004
y2karl: thanks, now I know why my old drill sergeant used to say "breasteses."
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:03 PM on January 16, 2004
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:03 PM on January 16, 2004
Having lived in New Orleans for 15 years, it never occurred to me to think of "ax" as specifically a black thing. (Here's a "Yat" dictionary of common native terms, inlcuding "ax".) I thought it was fun...
posted by taz at 3:06 PM on January 16, 2004
posted by taz at 3:06 PM on January 16, 2004
but if you have a New York accent, people will assume you're an idiot.
Jon, that's pretty funny, as your words are misleading...re-read your statement, hint: ass.
posted by thomcatspike at 3:07 PM on January 16, 2004
Jon, that's pretty funny, as your words are misleading...re-read your statement, hint: ass.
posted by thomcatspike at 3:07 PM on January 16, 2004
people don't assume you're an idiot if you have a strong accent, just low-class (see: Trump)
posted by amberglow at 3:37 PM on January 16, 2004
posted by amberglow at 3:37 PM on January 16, 2004
That's not true at all: it depends on what sort of accent you have.
A strong upper-class British Londoner accent and vocabulary wouldn't likely have people assuming you're low-class. A strong German language and appropriate upper-education vocabulary would likely have many people assume you have authority knowledge.
IMO YMMV.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:52 PM on January 16, 2004
A strong upper-class British Londoner accent and vocabulary wouldn't likely have people assuming you're low-class. A strong German language and appropriate upper-education vocabulary would likely have many people assume you have authority knowledge.
IMO YMMV.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:52 PM on January 16, 2004
I suspect that, languagehat, like myself, is a potential Collyer (noun, in New York City, a person trapped under their own collected debris in their apartment.)
You suspect correctly, except that my wife keeps me from succumbing to my sloth and packratism. So far.
As for aunt and vase, no, those are genuine pronunciations; in fact, "vahz" is the only pronunciation the OED gives.
posted by languagehat at 7:02 PM on January 16, 2004
You suspect correctly, except that my wife keeps me from succumbing to my sloth and packratism. So far.
As for aunt and vase, no, those are genuine pronunciations; in fact, "vahz" is the only pronunciation the OED gives.
posted by languagehat at 7:02 PM on January 16, 2004
You suspect correctly, except that my wife keeps me from succumbing to my sloth and packratism. So far.
See, this is where the Furry Lewis approach to matrimony--
Why should I marry when the man next door to me's got a wife?
--is generally doomed to failure.
Note to self: Must bust a vahz across Ont Jeanne's noggin next time I see her. Hypercorrection, my ass.
posted by y2karl at 9:32 PM on January 16, 2004
See, this is where the Furry Lewis approach to matrimony--
Why should I marry when the man next door to me's got a wife?
--is generally doomed to failure.
Note to self: Must bust a vahz across Ont Jeanne's noggin next time I see her. Hypercorrection, my ass.
posted by y2karl at 9:32 PM on January 16, 2004
Whether or not aks was the original form and pronunciation, the ks/sk interplay is a common linguistic transformation, known as metathesis. (Witness the way that Alexandria becomes Iskander, going the opposite direction.) Ax is probably a major feature of African-American English due to its origins in the slavery zone in the Mid-Atlantic states, which retained its English-countryside immigrant flavor long after the Yankee cities had become comparatively multi-ethnic. Appalachian speech patterns, it has been said, more closely resemble Elizabethan-era English than today's modern Received Pronunciation found in Britain, which is a later evolution. The colonists, one might say, preserved the original form of the language.
Ax suffers from the association with both blacks and hillbillies, and was in my day vigorously stamped out in elementary school. But so was ain't and I've learned that there are times to use that variant and no other (e.g. Say it ain't so, Joe, and riffs, found recently in Pete Rose heds). By contrast, ahnt and vahz are stamped out for being hypercorrections, for being high-falutin' snootiness, inappropriate in egalitarian America -- but just as with ax there is an historical basis for both. They're regionalisms, and there are plenty of people who grew up saying vahz simply because that was the way it was pronounced, without regard to class. It's deprecated, though, since it isn't Midwestern -- the standard American dialect.
posted by dhartung at 9:41 PM on January 16, 2004
Ax suffers from the association with both blacks and hillbillies, and was in my day vigorously stamped out in elementary school. But so was ain't and I've learned that there are times to use that variant and no other (e.g. Say it ain't so, Joe, and riffs, found recently in Pete Rose heds). By contrast, ahnt and vahz are stamped out for being hypercorrections, for being high-falutin' snootiness, inappropriate in egalitarian America -- but just as with ax there is an historical basis for both. They're regionalisms, and there are plenty of people who grew up saying vahz simply because that was the way it was pronounced, without regard to class. It's deprecated, though, since it isn't Midwestern -- the standard American dialect.
posted by dhartung at 9:41 PM on January 16, 2004
AxMe would be a page for those who want to be chopped to bits with axes.
Wait! I thought it was supposed to be rusty spoon...
posted by namespan at 9:55 PM on January 16, 2004
Wait! I thought it was supposed to be rusty spoon...
posted by namespan at 9:55 PM on January 16, 2004
(Witness the way that Alexandria becomes Iskander, going the opposite direction.)
Is that from Ed Wood's ancient Greek B movie Alexander or Alexandra?
posted by y2karl at 10:03 PM on January 16, 2004
Is that from Ed Wood's ancient Greek B movie Alexander or Alexandra?
posted by y2karl at 10:03 PM on January 16, 2004
I'm just confused who is supposed to be offended by 'AxMe'. What's the deal?
apparently no one is supposed to be offended since people all over the globe apparently pronounced this word "ax," but i think whoever is offended has the right to be offended for whatever reason without being called a snob. i'm not necessarily offended because i'm black. i'm mainly offended because i am when people mispronounce words for no damn reason, especially when some people are often ridiculed because of the way they speak. some people might not know any better... some people -- black, white, or whatever -- might not have grasped that when you see "sk," the S sounds comes before the K sound. black people are apparently stereotyped with having this issue (or is this another unfamiliar stereotype like the indian/convenience store one?), and playing off of this stereotype (or the concept of the mispronunciation by anyone, black or not) -- just to make a cute little abbreviation -- isn't really fair.
We do have black men and women on this particular bus, and I, for one, would appreciate they would chime in on such topics when they come up here. In this case, do you find it annoying or amusing to hear people who are not black say things like shizzle my nizzle or ax me?
i also don't think this is a fair statement either, despite your seemingly good intentions, because 1) you can't expect somebody black to "chime in" like we're speaking for the entire group of everyone who calls himself black, and 2) the "people who are not black" part of your question suggests that yes, black people say "nizzle" and "ax."
i speak for myself when i say that anyone who puts extra z's in a word and thinks he doesn't sound ignorant is a fucking idiot.
but i don't know why i'm chiming in about "fair"... i forgot where i'm posting
posted by lnicole at 12:07 AM on January 17, 2004
apparently no one is supposed to be offended since people all over the globe apparently pronounced this word "ax," but i think whoever is offended has the right to be offended for whatever reason without being called a snob. i'm not necessarily offended because i'm black. i'm mainly offended because i am when people mispronounce words for no damn reason, especially when some people are often ridiculed because of the way they speak. some people might not know any better... some people -- black, white, or whatever -- might not have grasped that when you see "sk," the S sounds comes before the K sound. black people are apparently stereotyped with having this issue (or is this another unfamiliar stereotype like the indian/convenience store one?), and playing off of this stereotype (or the concept of the mispronunciation by anyone, black or not) -- just to make a cute little abbreviation -- isn't really fair.
We do have black men and women on this particular bus, and I, for one, would appreciate they would chime in on such topics when they come up here. In this case, do you find it annoying or amusing to hear people who are not black say things like shizzle my nizzle or ax me?
i also don't think this is a fair statement either, despite your seemingly good intentions, because 1) you can't expect somebody black to "chime in" like we're speaking for the entire group of everyone who calls himself black, and 2) the "people who are not black" part of your question suggests that yes, black people say "nizzle" and "ax."
i speak for myself when i say that anyone who puts extra z's in a word and thinks he doesn't sound ignorant is a fucking idiot.
but i don't know why i'm chiming in about "fair"... i forgot where i'm posting
posted by lnicole at 12:07 AM on January 17, 2004
I guess the problem that I'm having with all this is that I don't necessarily get the connection as being "bad". If "ax" is considered a mostly black thing (though as I said earlier, this hasn't been my experience - in some places "ax" is an equal opportunity pronunciation) does that mean that by using "ax" playfully one is belittling black people? For as long as there have been African Americans in the United States, white Americans have been picking up black lingo, which is where words like "cool" (as an adjective unrelated to temperature) comes from, for example. To me it seems that the most vibrant and imaginative use of the language usually originates in black slang, so connecting something with the idea of "black" doesn't seem like a bad thing; in fact, quite the opposite.
But this is another one of those prickly points in which the motivation/intention of the person who is borrowing the pronunciation/slang has everything to do with whether it is demeaning or stereotyping, so it gets ouchy. It's clear that certain pronunciations, accents and grammatical errors will make things difficult for people in certain professional settings, but to me that is a different question than what is being addressed here.
Personally, I like everything to come in lots of different flavors, so I delight in quirky language usage and pronunciation, ethnic, geographical, cultural, and hybrid. I will always and forever call a median "the neutral ground" (via New Orleans), and even though I'm not Greek, the word "Opa!" is too hard to resist (for "wow!", "whoooah!", and "whoops!", among other possible translations) not to use it at least once a day, and I can't say "Boston", it seems I have to say "Bahston", because it's just more fun. In addition to simply being more tasty in my mouth, these sorts of things, for me, are always tributes to the people, places and contexts from which they arose.
posted by taz at 2:35 AM on January 17, 2004
But this is another one of those prickly points in which the motivation/intention of the person who is borrowing the pronunciation/slang has everything to do with whether it is demeaning or stereotyping, so it gets ouchy. It's clear that certain pronunciations, accents and grammatical errors will make things difficult for people in certain professional settings, but to me that is a different question than what is being addressed here.
Personally, I like everything to come in lots of different flavors, so I delight in quirky language usage and pronunciation, ethnic, geographical, cultural, and hybrid. I will always and forever call a median "the neutral ground" (via New Orleans), and even though I'm not Greek, the word "Opa!" is too hard to resist (for "wow!", "whoooah!", and "whoops!", among other possible translations) not to use it at least once a day, and I can't say "Boston", it seems I have to say "Bahston", because it's just more fun. In addition to simply being more tasty in my mouth, these sorts of things, for me, are always tributes to the people, places and contexts from which they arose.
posted by taz at 2:35 AM on January 17, 2004
lnicole: Simmer down, you're going to bust a blood vessel.
i'm mainly offended because i am when people mispronounce words for no damn reason
And just why are you so sure ax is mispronounced? If you'll read what I quoted, you'll see it's the original pronunciation: Old English had acsian, which became aks or ax. It's ask that's the neologism, the "mispronunciation" if you will. If you don't like the pronunciation ax, that's fine, don't use it. If you look down on other people who use it, simply because you yourself don't like it, then you're a snob in my book.
Re Boston English, here's a couple of good links: scientific and populist.
posted by languagehat at 7:28 AM on January 17, 2004
i'm mainly offended because i am when people mispronounce words for no damn reason
And just why are you so sure ax is mispronounced? If you'll read what I quoted, you'll see it's the original pronunciation: Old English had acsian, which became aks or ax. It's ask that's the neologism, the "mispronunciation" if you will. If you don't like the pronunciation ax, that's fine, don't use it. If you look down on other people who use it, simply because you yourself don't like it, then you're a snob in my book.
Re Boston English, here's a couple of good links: scientific and populist.
posted by languagehat at 7:28 AM on January 17, 2004
i also don't think this is a fair statement either, despite your seemingly good intentions, because 1) you can't expect somebody black to "chime in" like we're speaking for the entire group of everyone who calls himself black, and 2) the "people who are not black" part of your question suggests that yes, black people say "nizzle" and "ax."
I can understand resenting being expected to "chime in" on behalf of all persons self-identified as black, and this was not my intent, so point taken. As for the suggestion black people say ''nizzle'' and ''ax'', I suppose you can draw that conclusion from what I wrote, given the conclusions one sees drawn from anything anyone writes here.
I was thinking, when I wrote people who are not black, of Stan Chin, who has made interjections for which one would suspect anyone self-identified as white here would likely have been called out when this topic has come up in the past--as taz notes, this is another one of those prickly points in which the motivation/intention of the person who is borrowing the pronunciation/slang has everything to do with whether it is demeaning or stereotyping, so it gets ouchy.
Motivations and intentions are so hard to divine online.
Which is why shizzles and ax's here can be prompts for endless hair/har har splitting. It depends on the intent and whether one is enough of a comedian to bring it off when making with such repartee. The latter is rare in my experience. Being someone who got creeped out when Robin Williams broke out into such schtick--I have no final answer.
But then this is from a person who gets creeped out by Robin Williams 24/7, period, so 'nough said.
On review: so that's where Gene Wolfe got Ascians, ya think, languagehat?
posted by y2karl at 8:22 AM on January 17, 2004
I can understand resenting being expected to "chime in" on behalf of all persons self-identified as black, and this was not my intent, so point taken. As for the suggestion black people say ''nizzle'' and ''ax'', I suppose you can draw that conclusion from what I wrote, given the conclusions one sees drawn from anything anyone writes here.
I was thinking, when I wrote people who are not black, of Stan Chin, who has made interjections for which one would suspect anyone self-identified as white here would likely have been called out when this topic has come up in the past--as taz notes, this is another one of those prickly points in which the motivation/intention of the person who is borrowing the pronunciation/slang has everything to do with whether it is demeaning or stereotyping, so it gets ouchy.
Motivations and intentions are so hard to divine online.
Which is why shizzles and ax's here can be prompts for endless hair/har har splitting. It depends on the intent and whether one is enough of a comedian to bring it off when making with such repartee. The latter is rare in my experience. Being someone who got creeped out when Robin Williams broke out into such schtick--I have no final answer.
But then this is from a person who gets creeped out by Robin Williams 24/7, period, so 'nough said.
On review: so that's where Gene Wolfe got Ascians, ya think, languagehat?
posted by y2karl at 8:22 AM on January 17, 2004
I suspect that, languagehat, like myself, is a potential Collyer (noun, in New York City, a person trapped under their own collected debris in their apartment.)
You suspect correctly, except that my wife keeps me from succumbing to my sloth and packratism. So far.
Mrs. languagehat and mrs.jonmc should get together and form a support group.
posted by jonmc at 8:31 AM on January 17, 2004
You suspect correctly, except that my wife keeps me from succumbing to my sloth and packratism. So far.
Mrs. languagehat and mrs.jonmc should get together and form a support group.
posted by jonmc at 8:31 AM on January 17, 2004
my latest ask.me bitch is [MI]. It's the same thing as FPP which Matt says he hates, because it's not obvious what the meaning is. So stop.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:46 AM on January 17, 2004
posted by Space Coyote at 9:46 AM on January 17, 2004
Back to the post at hand ] horrors [ :
posted by mischief at 10:09 AM on January 17, 2004
AskMe threads are disappearing off the front page at high speedFor the last few days, I have noticed that questions have a relatively short shelf life and are often exhausted well before they drop out of sight.
posted by mischief at 10:09 AM on January 17, 2004
maybe we could specify how long we want the question to be on the page, or as the poster, click something when it's answered to our satisfaction so it can make way for newer and unanswered questions? (or that a lot of work to code?)
posted by amberglow at 10:22 AM on January 17, 2004
posted by amberglow at 10:22 AM on January 17, 2004
"Wait! I thought it was supposed to be rusty spoon..."
You got me, namespan.
I just want them to die, die, DIE.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:44 AM on January 17, 2004
You got me, namespan.
I just want them to die, die, DIE.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:44 AM on January 17, 2004
Re Boston English,
it's interesting how, when I first came to the USA as a teenager with an almost nonexistent knowledge of the English language I landed in Boston and for an entire summer there I learned English pretty much by myself, talking to people (well trying to engage them with my lame attempts at making myself understood).
the fact that the few words I already knew of the language seemed seldom to appear in Boston area people's mouths was often due to their pretty distinctive Boston accent, I later found out. and so for my first (two) summers in the US I innocently picked up (weird, I later discovered) Boston consonants and speech patterns. when I -- years later -- began traveling more extensively in the country I kind of lost the Boston thing. but I still know how to properly say "Billerica". and "Faneuil", too. (I was already a Danny-Ainge-poster-on-my-bed Celtics fan when I got there anyway. the Red Sox were an acquired taste, tho)
re the Ax thing.
I think karl is on the money -- we know it's far from being really offensive, but the fact that some African Americans could consider it unpleasant is more than enough, for me, to , ahem, ax the phrase from my vocabulary. it's kind of expendable, unless you're talking about this tool
but that's old PC-commie me talking, so, what do I know
posted by matteo at 11:22 AM on January 17, 2004
it's interesting how, when I first came to the USA as a teenager with an almost nonexistent knowledge of the English language I landed in Boston and for an entire summer there I learned English pretty much by myself, talking to people (well trying to engage them with my lame attempts at making myself understood).
the fact that the few words I already knew of the language seemed seldom to appear in Boston area people's mouths was often due to their pretty distinctive Boston accent, I later found out. and so for my first (two) summers in the US I innocently picked up (weird, I later discovered) Boston consonants and speech patterns. when I -- years later -- began traveling more extensively in the country I kind of lost the Boston thing. but I still know how to properly say "Billerica". and "Faneuil", too. (I was already a Danny-Ainge-poster-on-my-bed Celtics fan when I got there anyway. the Red Sox were an acquired taste, tho)
re the Ax thing.
I think karl is on the money -- we know it's far from being really offensive, but the fact that some African Americans could consider it unpleasant is more than enough, for me, to , ahem, ax the phrase from my vocabulary. it's kind of expendable, unless you're talking about this tool
but that's old PC-commie me talking, so, what do I know
posted by matteo at 11:22 AM on January 17, 2004
Looks like anastasiav is the only one who can solve this riddle.
Well, I had intended to apologize for throwing that grenade and then vanishing (my ISP apparently had a cold-related failure yesterday), but now, reading all these insightful and interesting comments, I'm not sorry at all. Languagehat, scarabic, dhartung, taz have all taught me something about language today.
But, ultimately, I'm with Crash. To me, AxMe simply doesn't clearly convey what the site is about.
Pronounce the word spelled A S K any way you want - but there is a huge gulf between what can be conveyed by spoken language (and is appropriate in spoken communication) and what can be conveyed by and appropriate when using written language. I think you already know that has been one of the big lessons of the internet age -- that opinion conveyed in writing must be precise, because tone and intent are easy things to misconstrue.
AxMe is not precise -- if you don't believe me, just look back at the comments in this conversation. AxMe says (to me, anyway) "this is a joke - don't take it seriously because we don't", which is at odds, I think, with the actual tone and content of the site. Think for a moment about how you would perceive a person (of any geographic origin or race - that doesn't even enter into it for me) who asked a question on the site which began "I want to ax a question about....."
posted by anastasiav at 11:31 AM on January 17, 2004
Well, I had intended to apologize for throwing that grenade and then vanishing (my ISP apparently had a cold-related failure yesterday), but now, reading all these insightful and interesting comments, I'm not sorry at all. Languagehat, scarabic, dhartung, taz have all taught me something about language today.
But, ultimately, I'm with Crash. To me, AxMe simply doesn't clearly convey what the site is about.
Pronounce the word spelled A S K any way you want - but there is a huge gulf between what can be conveyed by spoken language (and is appropriate in spoken communication) and what can be conveyed by and appropriate when using written language. I think you already know that has been one of the big lessons of the internet age -- that opinion conveyed in writing must be precise, because tone and intent are easy things to misconstrue.
AxMe is not precise -- if you don't believe me, just look back at the comments in this conversation. AxMe says (to me, anyway) "this is a joke - don't take it seriously because we don't", which is at odds, I think, with the actual tone and content of the site. Think for a moment about how you would perceive a person (of any geographic origin or race - that doesn't even enter into it for me) who asked a question on the site which began "I want to ax a question about....."
posted by anastasiav at 11:31 AM on January 17, 2004
and so for my first (two) summers in the US I innocently picked up (weird, I later discovered) Boston consonants and speech patterns
Whadda you retahded?
posted by jonmc at 1:32 PM on January 17, 2004
Whadda you retahded?
posted by jonmc at 1:32 PM on January 17, 2004
it's as plain as the nose on your face: the s comes before the k.
THE S COMES BEFORE THE K.
DUH.
posted by quonsar at 1:37 PM on January 17, 2004
THE S COMES BEFORE THE K.
DUH.
posted by quonsar at 1:37 PM on January 17, 2004
Whadda you retahded?
*pours lukewarm clam chowder on jon's head*
posted by matteo at 1:45 PM on January 17, 2004
*pours lukewarm clam chowder on jon's head*
posted by matteo at 1:45 PM on January 17, 2004
AskMe threads are disappearing off the front page at high speed
For the last few days, I have noticed that questions have a relatively short shelf life and are often exhausted well before they drop out of sight.
Chicken or Egg?
posted by inpHilltr8r at 2:41 PM on January 17, 2004
For the last few days, I have noticed that questions have a relatively short shelf life and are often exhausted well before they drop out of sight.
Chicken or Egg?
posted by inpHilltr8r at 2:41 PM on January 17, 2004
Speaking as a black female (someone asked for opinions on the matter), why the hell would I get offended because someone said 'ax' instead of 'ask'? Most of the people I know who say 'ax' are white or hispanic.
The belief that African Americans are going to take offense at the use of 'ax' means that some of you apparently associate the use of the word (and thus, poor pronunciation) with black people. Think about that.
If I really was touchy, that's what I'd get offended about. As it stands, the whole discussion is pretty silly. Our nicknames for the blue and gray have a certain format, and even I was trying to figure out how to keep that format for the green. It's just tradition, communities tend to have those.
"AxMe" fits the format. There isn't a single iota of anything offensive about that or worth getting worked up over. AskMe, frankly, sounds snooty--simply because we're breaking tradition so as not to appear "lower class." Whatever, get over it.
Racial over-sensitivity can be just as harmful (and annoying) as insensitivity. I think the African American constituents, like anyone and everyone else at MeFi, will let everyone know when we're offended by something, thanks.
Sheesh.
posted by precocious at 5:10 PM on January 17, 2004
The belief that African Americans are going to take offense at the use of 'ax' means that some of you apparently associate the use of the word (and thus, poor pronunciation) with black people. Think about that.
If I really was touchy, that's what I'd get offended about. As it stands, the whole discussion is pretty silly. Our nicknames for the blue and gray have a certain format, and even I was trying to figure out how to keep that format for the green. It's just tradition, communities tend to have those.
"AxMe" fits the format. There isn't a single iota of anything offensive about that or worth getting worked up over. AskMe, frankly, sounds snooty--simply because we're breaking tradition so as not to appear "lower class." Whatever, get over it.
Racial over-sensitivity can be just as harmful (and annoying) as insensitivity. I think the African American constituents, like anyone and everyone else at MeFi, will let everyone know when we're offended by something, thanks.
Sheesh.
posted by precocious at 5:10 PM on January 17, 2004
Listen to the lady, folks. She's talking sense.
posted by languagehat at 7:13 PM on January 17, 2004
posted by languagehat at 7:13 PM on January 17, 2004
Overly sensitive is not the first phrase that comes to mind around here.
posted by y2karl at 7:17 PM on January 17, 2004
posted by y2karl at 7:17 PM on January 17, 2004
Are you kidding? We've got folk blacklisting words simply because they sound like they should be offensive.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:31 PM on January 17, 2004
posted by five fresh fish at 7:31 PM on January 17, 2004
AskMe, frankly, sounds snooty
But precocious: isn't this the opposite prejudice of the one you so cogently and justly criticized?
A world where "AxMe" is racist and "AskMe" is snooty is just crazy. Practically the only avenue left to those with no wish to offend or make waves is to suggest we all learn a foreign language and ban English from MetaFilter altogether.
If so, may I put in an early vote for Portuguese?
PerguntaMe! has no possible objection whatsoever. ;)
posted by MiguelCardoso at 7:36 PM on January 17, 2004
But precocious: isn't this the opposite prejudice of the one you so cogently and justly criticized?
A world where "AxMe" is racist and "AskMe" is snooty is just crazy. Practically the only avenue left to those with no wish to offend or make waves is to suggest we all learn a foreign language and ban English from MetaFilter altogether.
If so, may I put in an early vote for Portuguese?
PerguntaMe! has no possible objection whatsoever. ;)
posted by MiguelCardoso at 7:36 PM on January 17, 2004
QueryMe (old bean!) would be good, but you know, it sounds like 'queer-y' and that might offend somebody.
*ducks*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:02 PM on January 17, 2004
*ducks*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:02 PM on January 17, 2004
Migs, you forgot to add the latter bit, --simply because we're breaking tradition so as not to appear "lower class."
It's the intention behind the words that I took mild umbrage with.
As it stands, any language with twenty-something different words for "sex" gets my vote.
Metafilter: Não Objeções Possíveis*
* babelfish; take with many grains of salt.
posted by precocious at 8:29 PM on January 17, 2004
It's the intention behind the words that I took mild umbrage with.
As it stands, any language with twenty-something different words for "sex" gets my vote.
Metafilter: Não Objeções Possíveis*
* babelfish; take with many grains of salt.
posted by precocious at 8:29 PM on January 17, 2004
How about just ?!
We already have two interrobangs here. That might excessively confuse matters.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:49 PM on January 17, 2004
We already have two interrobangs here. That might excessively confuse matters.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:49 PM on January 17, 2004
It's the intention behind the words that I took mild umbrage with.
Discerning intent in online text oft requires the telepathic arts.
posted by y2karl at 9:36 PM on January 17, 2004
Discerning intent in online text oft requires the telepathic arts.
posted by y2karl at 9:36 PM on January 17, 2004
PerguntaMe! has no possible objection whatsoever. ;)
Plus, it sounds (as our British friends would say) Ooo-er, naughty!
Hey baby, wanna pergunta me?
(Note to our British friends: Until proven otherwise--hell, even after being proven otherwise--I'm assuming that you all talk, look and act exactly like the Monty Python "Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more!" guy. A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh squire?)
posted by arto at 1:49 AM on January 18, 2004
Plus, it sounds (as our British friends would say) Ooo-er, naughty!
Hey baby, wanna pergunta me?
(Note to our British friends: Until proven otherwise--hell, even after being proven otherwise--I'm assuming that you all talk, look and act exactly like the Monty Python "Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more!" guy. A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh squire?)
posted by arto at 1:49 AM on January 18, 2004
Can we not just call it like it is:
"Couldn'tbearsedtosearchGoogleMe"?
posted by Blue Stone at 9:44 AM on January 18, 2004
"Couldn'tbearsedtosearchGoogleMe"?
posted by Blue Stone at 9:44 AM on January 18, 2004
How about just ?!
But how the hell do you pronounce it? The voices in my head would never be able to get their (virtual) tongues around that one. AskMe has a nice harmonious sound to it and is descriptive to boot.
posted by dg at 2:28 PM on January 18, 2004
But how the hell do you pronounce it? The voices in my head would never be able to get their (virtual) tongues around that one. AskMe has a nice harmonious sound to it and is descriptive to boot.
posted by dg at 2:28 PM on January 18, 2004
Lets all call it Ask Metafilter. Oh, is that not the point?
posted by Keyser Soze at 3:12 PM on January 18, 2004
posted by Keyser Soze at 3:12 PM on January 18, 2004
But how the hell do you pronounce it?
unhhh???? nnnh!!!
(it's easy, in a caveman way)
posted by amberglow at 6:27 PM on January 18, 2004
unhhh???? nnnh!!!
(it's easy, in a caveman way)
posted by amberglow at 6:27 PM on January 18, 2004
I like "AskMe" over "AxMe", because of a.) the friendly connotation ("Hi! I'm MetaFilter! Ask me!") and b.) the fact that "AskMe" just conveys more than "AxMe"...you know immediately what it is.
posted by Vidiot at 12:47 PM on January 19, 2004
posted by Vidiot at 12:47 PM on January 19, 2004
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
If not, how should we be providing feedback to those that ask questions that were easily answered by a bit of googling? Do we just provide the answer, do we provide the answer with an example of the search term that would have provided it, or do we carp at the question-asker for not doing some due diligence research before asking the question?
It strikes me as I write this that I'd prefer to see AskMe focusing on questions that really require expert insight and knowledge. The Internet is a helluva resource, with answers to most generalist questions.
Where are we taking this thing? Who's driving? When will we get there? And is there a reststop coming up soon?
posted by five fresh fish at 7:54 PM on January 15, 2004