Standards. December 11, 2008 4:23 AM   Subscribe

While I understand that this was a "stunt post", why are some threads deleted and others are simply closed to new comments?

And why was this post, which was pointed out as a double and starts off with the same five words as this post, allowed to stay? Although the old link was broken, that's an easy fix.
posted by gman to MetaFilter-Related at 4:23 AM (96 comments total)

The first link was just nasty from the start and had to go. The second one was at least innocent, but just a bad fit for MetaTalk, so no real reason to delete it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:27 AM on December 11, 2008


As to the Africa posts, the content of each is different, despite starting off the same way. The first one was about how Africa has been portrayed. The second starts off that way, but then goes into an interview about how Africans view help from the Western world. It's a small difference, sure, but it is different.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:33 AM on December 11, 2008


This was "innocent, but just a bad fit for MetaTalk", and it was deleted.
posted by gman at 4:34 AM on December 11, 2008


This was "innocent, but just a bad fit for MetaTalk", and it was deleted.

MeFi isn't craigslist, is it? And it's not fark, either, so I'm not sure why we should have kept the bullshit, shitstirring post in your first link. Are you proposing more deletions, or fewer?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:45 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


Come on, plexi's post was pointless and mean-spirited, and s/he must've known it would be deleted. And it was a day late. peggynature's post was misguided, and she acted like a twerp in the ensuing thread, but at least it wasn't an attempt to rip the piss out of another user and noise up the entire site.

That said, I can see why you're interested in finding out why posts are deleted ;-)
posted by jack_mo at 4:48 AM on December 11, 2008 [9 favorites]


Fools, you have no perception!
The stake we are gambling are frighteningly high!
We must crush Holden completely,
So like the GiveWell thread before it,
For the sake of the nation, again GiveWell must die.

There's a GiveWell thread just one post down!
posted by orthogonality at 5:00 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


kittens for breakfast - There are plenty of innocent posts which aren't suitable. Some are deleted and some are closed. I am trying to understand why this is, and I'm proposing equal treatment for all.
posted by gman at 5:25 AM on December 11, 2008


Metatalk threads (and closing only happens in metatalk) get deleted rather than closed when the thread is perceived to be attention whoring.
posted by Mitheral at 5:30 AM on December 11, 2008 [2 favorites]


I picture Matt reading this first thing in the morning, muttering "you know what? fuckit." and going back to bed.
posted by boo_radley at 5:31 AM on December 11, 2008 [4 favorites]


.
posted by bardic at 5:36 AM on December 11, 2008


And why are Roffledoffle's posts SuperUltraDeleted rather than MegaSuperUltraDeleted?
posted by DU at 5:49 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


There are plenty of innocent posts which aren't suitable. Some are deleted and some are closed. I am trying to understand why this is

Well, why don't you give us your best guess?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:01 AM on December 11, 2008


Huh, it looks like I had the second to last comment in each Africa thread. Oh, wait, no. Misread. Still, freaky. Ish.
posted by Eideteker at 6:05 AM on December 11, 2008


Here's another one. AND THIS IS NOT A DIG AT ANY MEFITE. It is a question. I was threatened with this. Was this poster "temp-banned"?
posted by gman at 6:17 AM on December 11, 2008


STOP DEMANDING CLEAR CUT RULES AND JUST ROLL WITH IT FOR FUCK SAKES. ROCKET SURGERY IT IS NOT.

I'm going to stop yelling now.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:19 AM on December 11, 2008 [14 favorites]


Was this poster "temp-banned"?

gman, I don't think this is a really a good faith use of MeTa. You linked to a comment where I tried to politely tell you that you were doing something that would get you temp-banned if you kept it up. You didn't. You weren't temp banned.

MeTa threads that were deleted used to just vanish. There was no way to remove them with a reason as the site was built so they just went away. Over time we got the mechanism to close threads and this became the way to deal with issues that were either over or were snowballing into something that was creating ill will in a situation where the original purpose of the thread was generally handled. This could include

- bad or upsetting flame-outs
- the thread turning into a fight between two members who shoudl take it off-site
- nasty witch hunt things

However, some threads are toxic from the start which included plexi's stunt post. The original MeTa thread that his was satiring was a little tone-deaf but it was posted with good intentions, it just happened not to go well. Leaving it up allowed people to see it, read the replies but also not continue to reply. plexi's thread was mean, stuntish and basically, in our opinion, shouldn't be left as any sort of beacon in MeTa. In short, it's not what MeTa is for and plexi got some time off for posting it. So we deleted it knowing pretty well that someone would come drag it up and re-link it because hey, why let sleeping dogs lie?

I'm not sure what your point of this thread is really. If you have an issue with moderation policies, feel free to outline what they are. Otherwise you just come across as someone who is vaguely disssatisfied with something and this winds up manifesting itself in random snark and acting up in various parts of the site. You're a long time user here, I'm not sure why this particular issue is one you're having trouble with.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:26 AM on December 11, 2008 [2 favorites]


Posts don't have rights.
posted by ardgedee at 6:27 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


STOP DEMANDING CLEAR CUT RULES AND JUST ROLL WITH IT

Sorry, Pharaoh!

*gets back to work hauling blocks*
posted by DU at 6:29 AM on December 11, 2008


Also, the MeFi post that you linked to... Yeah it was a sort of double to a two year old broken link. However we don't go back and fix old posts most of the time and if I recall correctly the OP had added an extra link. I removed the first post snarking -- which was, hey, by you! -- and it seemed to go okay.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:30 AM on December 11, 2008


You linked to a comment where I tried to politely tell you that you were doing something that would get you temp-banned if you kept it up. You didn't. You weren't temp banned.

And I linked to another comment which actually did post private email details. I haven't read all the way down that thread, but was the poster politely told the same thing? Or "temp-banned"?

Sorry, but any post which has a title "Fat bitchez, raise your hands." is "toxic from the start".

Perhaps I'm a slow learner, but I'm part of a community here and I'm still trying to fully understand the rules. Just take a look at my deleted posts/comment #'s!
posted by gman at 6:33 AM on December 11, 2008


Winston Churchill once said that a fanatic is someone who can't change their mind and won't change the subject. Apply liberally.
posted by allkindsoftime at 6:34 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


plexi's post violated WP:POINT, which should really be considered a standard in all online forums which aspire to civility, not just Wikipedia.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:36 AM on December 11, 2008 [3 favorites]


why are some threads deleted and others are simply closed to new comments?

So let's set aside the closure of metatalk threads that are simply resolved (user: "I have a minor bug report!" pb: "I have fixed the reported bug!" cortex: "gg everybody [plonk]). I don't think that's what you're asking about.

The difference between deleting and closing a problematic metatalk thread is pretty much a gut question of why it's problematic.

Did someone post the thing in the first place to be a jerk? To make a point in an obnoxious way? Is it ranty or drunk posting or someone completely flipping out? Unhinged personal vendetta? It's probably getting deleted outright—the mess is the post itself, and there's not enough merit there to balance out the bad from moment one.

Was it a reasonable post that went south and was getting ugly? Was the question/topic borderline enough that leaving it up for folks to see—and to see the site response to—likely to be useful for refreshing or updating the common knowledge of what's good and not so good as uses of metatalk? It's probably getting closed rather than deleted, since there's some merit to having it visible even if leaving comments open seems like a bad idea for one reason or another.

There's always going to be a little slosh between those two buckets, but generally speaking a metatalk thread that gets deleted will get deleted pretty darned quickly, because it's the post itself that crosses that This Is A Bad Idea threshold independent of any future thread content.

And why was this post, which was pointed out as a double and starts off with the same five words as this post, allowed to stay?

Some of double territory gets fuzzy. Clear doubles get zapped as soon as we see 'em generally (the tend to get flagged vigorously, for one), but throw in some age and time and variation and concomitant lack of vigorous flagging and some of the stuff a bit out toward the edge of the territory do sneak through. We don't see it, or by the time we do see it there's a nice thread going, etc.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:43 AM on December 11, 2008 [4 favorites]


Thank you, cortex. That's what I was looking for.
posted by gman at 6:47 AM on December 11, 2008


Everything like this can be resolved to a four quadrant graph. You need to learn to think in at least four directions about everything.
posted by Burhanistan at 6:47 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


This was "innocent, but just a bad fit for MetaTalk", and it was deleted.

No, I'm not playing with you. You asked a question, I answered it and now you're totally ignoring that explanation and asking a different question.


You want to argue every damn minor detail you can find, while refusing to even think about the answers you're given. You want to the community to be like the universe in your head and when it's not, you feel you have some right to hold it accountable for you inability to recognize it's rules. You're not trying to understand its rules, you're trying to make it conform to your rules.

Slow down, take a breath, stop nitpicking every thing you think is wrong and please listen to what people tell you about the community.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:48 AM on December 11, 2008 [4 favorites]


Metafilter: you just come across as someone who is vaguely disssatisfied with something and this winds up manifesting itself in random snark
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 6:56 AM on December 11, 2008


BB - No, what I did was take your explanation and essentially ask why it wasn't applied to another post. Sorry I provoked such a vile response. That's fucked up.
posted by gman at 7:00 AM on December 11, 2008


Closing time - time for you to go out, go out into the world.
Closing time - turn the lights up over every boy and every girl.
Closing time - one last call for alcohol, so finish your whiskey or beer.
Closing time - you don't have to go home but you can't stay here.


Just thought I'd get that stuck in all your heads...
posted by Grither at 7:05 AM on December 11, 2008


... I KNOW who I want to perma-ban....
posted by yhbc at 7:15 AM on December 11, 2008


No, what I did was take your explanation and essentially ask why it wasn't applied to another post.

Yeah, like I said nitpicking minor details.

As the mods and others have explained, there isn't always a cut and dried process for deleting stuff vs closing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:22 AM on December 11, 2008


This is why I tend to stay away from metatalk. I just learning how to use the front page and ask features. Someday I will make an attempt to understand this. Until then I will do the mods a favor and stay back and watch.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 7:24 AM on December 11, 2008


That plexi thread is really f-ed up.
posted by lunit at 7:28 AM on December 11, 2008


_______________
|                       |
| GMANN-KOTA   |======
|                       |
|_____   _______|
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         | |
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         | |__/
        /     /
        \___\
                \
posted by cog_nate at 7:32 AM on December 11, 2008


I know who I want to take me home.

But I'm not saying.
posted by owtytrof at 7:40 AM on December 11, 2008


Closing a thread: "Yeah yeah, okay enough guys."

Deleting a thread: "Oh for fucks sake enough, and let's pretend this never happened."
posted by fleacircus at 7:47 AM on December 11, 2008 [4 favorites]


plexi and gman are like sand in my underwear.
posted by desjardins at 8:22 AM on December 11, 2008


gman, we delete dumb posts here just like everywhere else on the site -- we're very consistent in that regard. Stuff that isn't a good faith post, or drunken post, or not in the right place (sometimes people try and post a question for Ask MeFi here) gets the ax.

What is different here is that we have a "closed" function that no other part of the site has, and that was after umpteen flamewars and endless chat fights developed on seemingly long-settled threads. The feature started when we realized in a 500 comment thread where the first couple hundred comments were really productive and explained some issues but ended with two people shouting back and forth for the last two hundred comments. Deleting a thread whole like that is a shame and a loss, but keeping it around and letting people fight with each other publicly is also a shame that reflects poorly on the site and the members. So we added the close feature for possibly contentious threads that feel "resolved" enough to be ended before people get antsy and start attacking one another.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:23 AM on December 11, 2008


What stavros yelled. And goddamn, what is plexi's problem? It seems like every other week he's pulling some shit that could be most charitably be described as 'tone deaf', but given the frequency, I'm not sure if that's really the problem.

Just thought I'd get that stuck in all your heads...

Ha, the joke's on you, any time that song is mentioned, this song gets wedged in my head. Which I mind not at all.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:27 AM on December 11, 2008


mathowie exceeds expectations in every regard.
posted by boo_radley at 8:33 AM on December 11, 2008


The Cohen song actually annoys me just as much as the other one, but the other one is more deeply embedded in my subconscious and so gets to do the annoying more often.

I like Leonard's songs, I just don't always like it very much when he's the one recording them.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:36 AM on December 11, 2008


Videotapes show bestiality, Enumclaw police say. "enumclaw" sounds to this programmer like an unusually dirty C hack.

And in related news from San Francisco, Police Review Horse Death is, as headlines go, less than clear.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:39 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


This is the wrong thread.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:39 AM on December 11, 2008 [2 favorites]


Videotapes show bestiality, Enumclaw police say.
No thank you?
posted by boo_radley at 8:40 AM on December 11, 2008


I have gum stuck in my head. I tried using industrial solvent, but no luck. Now I'm blind and shake uncontrollably, but the whole world seems minty fresh.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:41 AM on December 11, 2008


I saw this on the front page just now and thought "Funny, that reminds me of those deleted gman posts that jack_mo had linked to here." Then I checked to see who the poster was...
posted by Joe Beese at 8:42 AM on December 11, 2008


I like cortex's bestiality comments, I just don't always like it very much when he's the one posting them.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:42 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


Actually, I have a serious question for you gman.

I understand and respect your confusion about the rules and your sincere desire to get them straight. But -- may I ask why you created an entire MetaTalk thread to ask your question, instead of simply emailing one of the mods privately?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:42 AM on December 11, 2008


well, if the frequency is too high or too low, it wouldn't be audible. that's completely different to being tone deaf.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:42 AM on December 11, 2008


damn, how did a dozen comments slip in there? that was a response to goddamn, what is plexi's problem? It seems like every other week he's pulling some shit that could be most charitably be described as 'tone deaf', but given the frequency, I'm not sure if that's really the problem.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:45 AM on December 11, 2008


I understand and respect your confusion about the rules and your sincere desire to get them straight. But -- may I ask why you created an entire MetaTalk thread to ask your question, instead of simply emailing one of the mods privately?

I was looking for more than their opinions.

JB - If only that post had received the illustrious Joe Beese Seal of Approval, it'd still be there. I fuckin' know it.
posted by gman at 8:52 AM on December 11, 2008


If only that post had received the illustrious Joe Beese Seal of Approval, it'd still be there. I fuckin' know it.

FWIW, I found it interesting enough to listen to the whole video. Though hardly a contender in December's best-post contest, I wouldn't have recommended it for deletion myself. But compared with other stuff you've had yanked, it was clearly more of the same.
posted by Joe Beese at 9:00 AM on December 11, 2008


I was looking for more than their opinions.

But it's the mods who run the site, so they're really the only ones who could answer your question.
posted by scody at 9:00 AM on December 11, 2008


sorry to plexi and gman for my earlier comment, I'm having a shitty day.
posted by desjardins at 9:01 AM on December 11, 2008


Jesus, it's like Jessamyn was speaking Venutian or something.

I love cortex and Jessamyn both (mathowie, you know what you did *harrumph*), but it verges on ricockulous how frequently cortex's take on things is overvalued when Jessamyn's has been given and is absolutely clear and sufficient. I don't know why he moves you. He's a man, he's just a man. And I've had so many men before, in very many ways.

One thing I'll say for him, cortex is cool.

Sorry, but any post which has a title "Fat bitchez, raise your hands." is "toxic from the start".

I am absolutely not certain of this. If the roll-call had not in fact gone on, literally, had just been ignored, it might have been okay by me, if I have my "generic mefite" hat on. But since also, it was based on my awesome issues, that was not a little bit uncomfortable. It would have remained a crucible, but I like 'em hot anyway.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 9:08 AM on December 11, 2008 [7 favorites]


Hey Mr. November 25, 2008, are you, of all people, seriously calling me out?
posted by gman at 9:16 AM on December 11, 2008


I have found that there is a simple rule you can use when trying to decide if a comment is appropriate: when you are writing it, is the tone you are going for something like "Yeah, this'll show that fucker!"?

If so, it's probably safe to delete it, as it's most likely not going to be conducive to the conversation.

Unless of course you are in askme, and the question is someone looking for diagrams to better know how to engage in sexual intercourse, in which case, "showing that fucker" might be just what the situation calls for. But that's going to be a fairly small subset, I think.
posted by quin at 9:18 AM on December 11, 2008


I am just a man, indeed. Frankly, I think Jessamyn puts it better than I do at least half the time, and she's been doing it for longer besides, and I'm not sure there's actually any crazy frequency of imbalanced receptions one way or the other. We both have our better and worse days as far as nailing it on the first go, and there's a lot of context to it besides.

In this case I'd say I said less about the uncharitable motivational consideration things that me and Jessamyn both were considering, while we both hit the policy points reasonably well, and it doesn't shock me in that case that gman would be more receptive to my comment, but I don't think that's any great shakes one way or the other. Poster prefers answer that puts him less on the spot, news at eleven.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:20 AM on December 11, 2008


Film. Film at eleven. I need some breakfast.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:21 AM on December 11, 2008


Can anyone explain that plexi post to me? Did I miss a MeTa about gyms or something?
posted by graventy at 9:22 AM on December 11, 2008


Hey Mr. Gman, are you, of all people, seriously calling someone out for being new?
posted by dirtdirt at 9:24 AM on December 11, 2008


Oh. I see. Well, huh.
posted by graventy at 9:24 AM on December 11, 2008


Hey Mr. November 25, 2008, are you, of all people, seriously calling me out?

You are terrible. Antagonistic without purpose.
posted by boo_radley at 9:25 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


Hey Mr. November 25, 2008, are you, of all people, seriously calling me out?


"Calling you out"?

This was so bizarre that I consulted the Urban Dictionary to see if the kids were using this phrase in some sense I didn't understand.

1) To challenge someone in some way, 2) To mock or insult someone or to issue a challenge for them to fight, 3) To deliberately insult someone.

I certainly didn't mean to insult you. And one can't fight a disembodied presence on the Internet, of course.

Apparently you did interpret as a challenge: "I thought your post was adequate even if I correctly predicted based on past mod behavior that it would be deleted." But I think that says more about you than it does about me.
posted by Joe Beese at 9:26 AM on December 11, 2008



Hey Mr. November 25, 2008, are you, of all people, seriously calling me out?


This entire thing feels like I'm standing in front of a mirror with a head full of acid, except that the mirror is just the tiniest bit imperfect and I hone in on that imperfection trying to figure out what it is and then I realize that it is a bubble that has warped the surrounding reflection just a hair's breadth, but that hair's breadth is rocking my world and I keep asking my friends who are standing around laughing at me why their reflections are not like God's, but I can't seem to get them to understand so I just keep asking the same question a slightly different way until they leave the room and I'm left with a head full of acid, an imperfect mirror, and the awful, awful realization that in acid time, this is going to take a while.
posted by mrmojoflying at 9:26 AM on December 11, 2008 [9 favorites]


desjardins, I thought the sand in the underwear thing was a compliment!

One day, snpp.com will have anchors. I know it.
posted by SpiffyRob at 9:27 AM on December 11, 2008


I think someone is just bored. Someone besides me, that is.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:27 AM on December 11, 2008


Hey Mr. November 25, 2008, are you, of all people, seriously calling me out?

Mr 27288: no pulling rank on people by usernumber; that's an order.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:28 AM on December 11, 2008


Man, Ubu, sometimes you're such a noob.
posted by graventy at 9:29 AM on December 11, 2008


Hey Mr. Gman, are you, of all people, seriously calling someone out for being new?

I'm calling someone out who's new and been called out plenty himself in his short time here, for calling me out.
posted by gman at 9:31 AM on December 11, 2008


He didn't come here to make friends.
posted by BeerFilter at 9:31 AM on December 11, 2008 [2 favorites]


Hey Mr. November 25, 2008, are you, of all people, seriously calling me out?

For the love of pb, don't do that.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:32 AM on December 11, 2008


And one can't fight a disembodied presence on the Internet, of course.

not even in some kind of networked shoot-em-up game?

* shuffles awkwardly in front of esteemed senior member graventy *
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:34 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


For the love of pb, don't do that.

that's exactly what i think whenever i hear of americans eating it with jelly.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:36 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


Let me just reiterate my previous threats to murder you all.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:42 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


Please do it soon. I could use the rest.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 9:44 AM on December 11, 2008


permission denied.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:46 AM on December 11, 2008


When Ambrosia and jonmc finally do it, the friction between their egos will burn with the light of a million suns.
posted by fleacircus at 9:51 AM on December 11, 2008


that's exactly what i think whenever i hear of americans eating it with jelly.

it's peanut butter jelly time!
posted by pyramid termite at 9:51 AM on December 11, 2008


Dear Beastforum mods:

I don't understand why photos of adult collies and fillies are aloud but puppies and colts are not. this is basikally a total violation of my free speech and you will be hereing from my lawyer!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:52 AM on December 11, 2008 [2 favorites]


*pulls rank*

Fall out, maggots!
posted by Skot at 9:52 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


* shuffles awkwardly in front of esteemed senior member graventy *

Finally. Recognized for my talents slightly lower user number!
posted by graventy at 9:52 AM on December 11, 2008


crap wrong tab. delete please!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:52 AM on December 11, 2008


Perhaps I'm a slow learner

Perhaps?
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:53 AM on December 11, 2008


Let me just reiterate my previous threats to murder you all.

Come on dad, I'm help you upstairs and you can sleep it off.


I'm calling someone out who's new and been called out plenty himself in his short time here, for calling me out.

What's the proper time frame for calling you then?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:54 AM on December 11, 2008


Collies Aloud! would be my pop music crush of the millenium.
posted by Wolfdog at 9:58 AM on December 11, 2008


Dear Breastforum mods:

I don't understand why photos of adult - whoops, wrong tab.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:58 AM on December 11, 2008


That's at least three strikes. He's out.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:58 AM on December 11, 2008


Before making a stunt post, remember that you have to practice using two keyboards with it, or it just won't fly.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:58 AM on December 11, 2008



He didn't come here to make friends.


He came here to win!
posted by Dr-Baa at 10:00 AM on December 11, 2008 [3 favorites]


Hey Mr. November 25, 2008, are you, of all people, seriously calling me out?

You, sir, are a dick.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:03 AM on December 11, 2008 [3 favorites]


Wow, Dr-Baa. I'd favorite that if you didn't have a higher user number than me.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:03 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


START EVERYONE ON A HUGS BOLUS, STAT.
posted by Plutor at 10:04 AM on December 11, 2008 [1 favorite]


Hey Mr. November 25, 2008, are you, of all people, seriously calling me out?

1. I would really, really like if we could have Girl From Ipanema play when you browse the flag options.

2. I would really, really like if "Christ, what an asshole" were one of them.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 10:04 AM on December 11, 2008 [10 favorites]


It's really only tremendous restraint that prevents me and jessamyn from having usernumbers 2 and 3. And only self-preservation that keeps either of us from having 1.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:05 AM on December 11, 2008 [2 favorites]


gman, let me further illustrate the point on this thread. You're being kind of a dick calling out some other user on the basis of him being new here. Your question was already answered and this is going downhill fast. I'm gonna close this, but not delete it, because the first half of this thread might be useful to folks wondering what the difference is between closing vs. deleting here.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:07 AM on December 11, 2008 [15 favorites]


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