It's not like I was asking him to put on pants. July 16, 2009 10:44 AM   Subscribe

MeetUp Ettiquette: I know that the mods are not our moms and will not be present at meet-ups, but are there any basic ground rules (and/or can we establish some) to govern interpersonal interactions at meet-ups?

I have epilepsy and can not be around flash photography. I mentioned this in a Boston meet-up thread, and was responded to by a user who said that this was going to be "interesting" as he was definitely using flash. Several people, myself included, hoped he was joking. The second response was that he was going to avoid this "crisis" by attending another location.

I tried MeMail with this specific user to no avail. I can not for the life of me understand why someone would insist on doing something to a complete stranger and fellow MeFite that will *knowingly* physically harm that person.

I have no idea what my response even should be at this point, but I'm inclined to think that forgoing future meet-ups might be my best bet - just as I would never go to a party where I knew there was going to be a strobe light, I'm not going to attend a meet-up if "No flash" is an unreasonable request.
posted by grapefruitmoon to Etiquette/Policy at 10:44 AM (189 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite

Ha, always drama.
posted by smackfu at 10:47 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


The second response was that he was going to avoid this "crisis" by attending another location.

I tried MeMail with this specific user to no avail. I can not for the life of me understand why someone would insist on doing something to a complete stranger and fellow MeFite that will *knowingly* physically harm that person.


Wait, I'm confused - he's NOT going to do anything to you, he's going elsewhere so he can use his flash. Right? Crisis averted?
posted by tristeza at 10:51 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Public shaming always works!
posted by stagewhisper at 10:52 AM on July 16, 2009


Put on your jockstraps, LA MeFites, because I'll be wearing my dick-punching suit en force.
posted by carsonb at 10:52 AM on July 16, 2009 [19 favorites]


but are there any basic ground rules (and/or can we establish some) to govern interpersonal interactions at meet-ups?

Yeah, don't be a dick.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:53 AM on July 16, 2009 [6 favorites]


tristeza: In the short term, yeah, I guess so. I just am left with this yucky feeling that I'm making an unreasonable request - which, baffles me and makes me feel way less like attending meet-ups.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:53 AM on July 16, 2009


Link.

Isn't "no flash" a pretty difficult issue in life?
posted by smackfu at 10:55 AM on July 16, 2009


I think there's a practical distinction to be made here between an unreasonable request and an impractical one.

"Please don't cause me to have a seizure" is pretty reasonable, but "please everyone in a large mixed crowd don't do a thing that is generally a-okay to do in this setting" is potentially impractical to enforce.

Unless someone at the Boston meetup is going to be camera czar and monitor all photographic equipment for the duration of the meetup, for example, this seems like the sort of thing that'll be hard to make happen, good intentions notwithstanding. The bigger the meetup, the bigger the logistical difficulties.

Not to say it's impossible, but insofar as something presents a practical imposition on the crowd, the onus for getting the word out and making sure that the imposition is actually acceptable and manageable kind of has to be primarily on the person with the issue.

More generally, the ground rules for a meetup are the same ground rules for pretty much any social get-together: people should be cool and nice and not cause each other problems on purpose. That's very broad, very mild, and not something that can be enforced except through the tact and good will of the folks at any given event, so if you're concerned about a specific variation on that open-ended default it's going to be important to deal with it locally on a case-by-case basis.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:55 AM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


Browsing the Meet-Up thread in question, it appears that everything went as well as could be expected - you weren't being a bossy asshole, most of the responses were understanding and supportive, and if the jerk isn't in the mood to be a non-jerk, he can fuck off somewhere else and y'all will probably have a better time without him.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:55 AM on July 16, 2009


People should respect other people's medical conditions. That seems pretty fundamental.

As to other meetup etiquette: People may touch my butt, but should get permission to touch anybody else's.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:56 AM on July 16, 2009 [8 favorites]


stagewhisper: I, personally, am not trying to publicly shame anyone. I neither named names nor linked to the thread. If anyone does research, they can find the comments, but I am very specifically not trying to make this about "He hurt my feeling!" and more about "Ok, so this is weird, so I'd like to know what the guidelines actually ARE so I can decide how to respond."
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:56 AM on July 16, 2009


Isn't "no flash" a pretty difficult issue in life?

YES. I have had to, on more than one occasion, have to ask perfect strangers to turn off the flash on their cameras. They've never had a problem with it, thus far.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:57 AM on July 16, 2009


I would go ahead and print out a couple of signs that say something to the effect of "NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY RIGHT HERE. I HAVE EPILEPSY" and put those up in a reasonably sized area around where you intend to hang at the meetup. If you don't think that will help -- and it might not if people get well and truly sauced and just start snapping at random -- then you might be in a bit of trouble. I can't imagine there's no way that you and flash photography can't coexist at a safe distance at a meetup.

And of course, responding insensitively to your raised-in-advance concern, was not the right thing to do.
posted by kosem at 10:57 AM on July 16, 2009


I think if you really wanted to make it a general question, you should have left out the entire backstory re the Boston meetup.
posted by smackfu at 10:57 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm quite curious about the extent of this effect. I mean, we all know the urban legend (or real story?) about the person who had an anaphylactic reaction after kissing another person who had just eaten peanut butter.. Suddenly just bringing peanut butter to a school is a major faux pas.
posted by Chuckles at 10:59 AM on July 16, 2009


Hell, it's light on up till 9:00 PM right now. Go outside for nice no-flash pictures.

It's okay if we go outside, right? Because I've got to do that to get to the meetup. TIA
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:00 AM on July 16, 2009


I bring the peanut butter, but don't kiss people.

I just summed up my entire high school experience there. I need to be alone for a little while, please.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:01 AM on July 16, 2009 [10 favorites]


I'm quite curious about the extent of this effect.

Over the past year, I have twice had seizures that were induced by flash photography that was in the same room that I was in. Multiple photos were taken in quick succession - I would say that I have a threshold of about five flashes before I get sick-feeling and perhaps 5 more before a full-on seizure. This is a relatively "recent" phenomenon since digital cameras started adding a sort of "pre-flash" strobe that is brief, but repeated several times is enough to send my brain into a tizzy.

Yes, this is horribly annoying to deal with on a day-to-day basis. Yes, I have had to ask total strangers to turn the flash off their cameras. No, I don't like doing it. No, there is no way for me and flash photography to "safely co-exist" in the same room. Rooms have reflective surfaces and the light bounces and finds it way into my eyes. Honest.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:03 AM on July 16, 2009


I think if you really wanted to make it a general question, you should have left out the entire backstory re the Boston meetup.

You're acting pretty dickish towards grapefruitmoon about this, for unknown reasons.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:03 AM on July 16, 2009


I'm not planning on wearing pants. Is that cool with everybody?
posted by JeffK at 11:04 AM on July 16, 2009


I'm pro-photos and pro-outside! I have to go through LOTS of outside to get to the meet-up!
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:04 AM on July 16, 2009


grapefruitmoon, your situation is pretty specific, and I don't know that we can make any general rules beyond the same common courtesy you'd show any other group of people. Obviously "no flash photography at ANY meetup EVER" doesn't make sense unless there are epileptics at every one of them. So what other kinds of rules would you propose that extend beyond normal social etiquette?
posted by desjardins at 11:04 AM on July 16, 2009


I don't mean to be a total boner here, but NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY. Seriously.

You may have had better luck issuing a request rather than an edict.

That said, at every meetup I've been to people have always been respectful of others' picture (or no picture) preferences. I know this is a bit different (as the effect doesn't change if your not in the photo), but I do hope this little run in doesn't turn you off from meetups forever.

on preview: "NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY RIGHT HERE. I HAVE EPILEPSY" lose the all caps and add a 'please' and it's a good solution.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 11:05 AM on July 16, 2009 [4 favorites]


You're acting pretty dickish towards grapefruitmoon about this, for unknown reasons.

And now you are acting pretty dickish towards me, so win win.
posted by smackfu at 11:07 AM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


(Because honestly, I'm not the dude who said he was going to use flash after someone said it caused them seizures, so on the dick scale, I'm way below that guy.)
posted by smackfu at 11:10 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


This is a reasonable request. But it's going to be a problem anyway.

One of my cameras has a flash feature that needs to be turned off every single time I start up the camera. I hate flash, so I always turn it off. But even I - someone who hates to use flash and always turns it off - frequently forget and am pissed to see my photo ruined by the crappy flash.

So if I was going to the Boston meetup (I'm not) any suggestion or signage that said, "Please don't use a flash, I have a medical condition and could go into convulsions", would give me the impression that I should avoid taking pictures period. That would really fucking suck. And I think many point and shoot cameras work just this way. Flash is going to happen if you aren't *extremely* careful. Also, I assume thee will be drinking at this meetup?

But sending someone at the party to the hospital would also suck.

I see no way to win on this one. Either all cameras are banned at the meetup, or you will get flashes. Right?
posted by y6y6y6 at 11:11 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


And now you are acting pretty dickish towards me, so win win.

Telling you you're being a prick when you're being a prick isn't dickishness.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:11 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


What?! Of course I'm bringing my mum to the meet-up.
posted by deborah at 11:11 AM on July 16, 2009


desjardins: Well, what I'm kind of wondering is asking "no flash plz!" standard social etiquette or AM I being a total boner?

I'm not trying to be dramatic, but I avoid tons of situations to avoid seizures. I don't play video games and don't go to video-game-centered events at friends' houses. I don't go to any concerts, because I can reasonably expect there to be strobe lights. I'm fine with all of this. If I got a movie, I have to sit in the back or I get sick. If I get there and the theatre is full and I can only sit in the front, I skip it. No problem.

And I'm fine with skipping meet-ups if it's not a reasonable thing to ask in advance that flashes be turned off. Sure, I'll miss hanging out with people, but I *don't* want to impose on people to dramatically alter their behavior or change the nature of the interaction. Yeah, I'd rather go to the party, but I'd also rather not have a seizure and have no problem staying home if the cost/benefit analysis indicates that it's easier for me to not go than to expect people not to use flash.

[SERIOUSLY. I AM NOT BEING PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE. THESE ARE MY TOTALLY HONEST FEELINGS.]
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:13 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I dunno about acting dickish towards anyone, but I'd hate to make anyone have a seizure.
posted by boo_radley at 11:14 AM on July 16, 2009


Oh, one flash or two on accident is no problem. I totally understand how cameras work. What I mean is, don't take a hundred pictures with the flash on. One or two or three of "Whoops! I hit the wrong button!" isn't my idea of a good time, but whatever. Cameras do weird things.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:15 AM on July 16, 2009


Well, what I'm kind of wondering is asking "no flash plz!" standard social etiquette

Not really, is a situation like this.

or AM I being a total boner?

No, you're not.
posted by tristeza at 11:16 AM on July 16, 2009


The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think this isn't a 100% reasonable request.

Asking 60 people to not take pictures (for fear using flash by mistake) is asking a lot. Especially at an event like this. Is this likely to ever happen again?

Would it be reasonable for people to ask you to leave the room for 30-45 minutes so they could take pictures? That seems reasonable.
posted by y6y6y6 at 11:16 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


and y6y6y6y6, if you can get a low (or is it high? I can never remember) ISO speed camera, you can take quite good pictures indoors, in low light, without flashes.
posted by boo_radley at 11:16 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


..of me with no pants
posted by JeffK at 11:18 AM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


"Oh, one flash or two on accident is no problem. I totally understand how cameras work."

Ah...... Well, that seems reasonable then. But you might mention in the thread you'd be willing to step out for a bit if people really needed to use flash.
posted by y6y6y6 at 11:19 AM on July 16, 2009


Would it be reasonable for people to ask you to leave the room for 30-45 minutes so they could take pictures? That seems reasonable.

Yeah, in theory, that would work.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:19 AM on July 16, 2009


Yay for compromise through open and fair communication!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:21 AM on July 16, 2009


All in favor?
posted by boo_radley at 11:21 AM on July 16, 2009


And now you are acting pretty dickish towards me, so win win.

Just noting that you seem to be attacking another member for unknown reasons. Is there a history here or a particular reason why you're insuitating she's full of drama and has an ulterior motive?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:21 AM on July 16, 2009


"and y6y6y6y6, if you can get a low (or is it high? I can never remember) ISO speed camera, you can take quite good pictures indoors, in low light, without flashes."

As I say....... I never use flash. But it goes off by accident.
posted by y6y6y6 at 11:22 AM on July 16, 2009


Brandon Blatcher: I've met smackfu in person, and can't remember any history between us. So, maybe he has some kind of beef, but I personally don't know about it.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:24 AM on July 16, 2009


Leave for 30-45 minutes to take pictures? That would be reasonable if it was a meeting of models for a nice photoshoot. Don't get me wrong, there are some foxy MeFites, but over half an hour to do their little turn on the catwalk seems excessive. Unless someone is feeling compulsive and wants to say, "Okay, we have single pictures of each of you. Now, let's work through all of the permutations of pairs of you," that's too long.

Ugh, people and their freakin' cameras.
posted by adipocere at 11:25 AM on July 16, 2009 [4 favorites]


I apologize for being mean. That was not my intent.
posted by smackfu at 11:25 AM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


posted by JeffK I'm not planning on wearing pants. Is that cool with everybody?

As long as your underwear is labeled with [more inside].
posted by mattdidthat at 11:25 AM on July 16, 2009 [7 favorites]


if you can get a low (or is it high? I can never remember) ISO speed camera, you can take quite good pictures indoors, in low light, without flashes

Yeah, it's high. On point and shoot digital cameras the problem with this is that a high ISO setting there is a lot of noise introduced (because the CCD signal needs to be boosted). Some cameras are better than others, but a lot of digital cameras are really only designed to take high-quality photos at low ISO settings. More info here.

But I agree that coming up with some arrangement where grapefruitmoon can come to meetups and not be subjected to non-accidental camera flashes is totally reasonable.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:26 AM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


Well, what I'm kind of wondering is asking "no flash plz!" standard social etiquette or AM I being a total boner?

I'm rarely in the same room with the word "etiquette", but for what it's worth I have never been asked not to take flash photographs in any casual social setting. "Please don't take my picture" has come up a few times, though not often.

I brought up practicality because I think that's the crux here: the difficulty of controlling this sort of thing scales up rapidly with the size of the gathering, to the point where asking people at a meetup of a dozen mefites not to take flash photos seems pretty accomplishable with a high rate of success but doing the same thing at a bash with five times that many may be very, very hard to pull off even if everyone is totally down in principle.

The size of the gathering, the amount of people around, the in-and-out dynamics of the crowd over time, the length at which the meetup proceeds, the amount folks are drinking: all of these are going to be contributing factors in whether or not erstwhile good-faith attempts to accommodate the no-flash thing leads to "one flash or two on accident" vs. e.g. several dozen on multiple occasions.

I don't think it's something that can be reduced to skipping meetups or not skipping meetups, but you may have to do some risk-analysis on individual meetup situations based on those sorts of factors. Some may be less practically manageable than others, or require some way for you to handle the risk personally instead of putting its handling on a crowd, which it sounds like you already do in other contexts already.

and y6y6y6y6, if you can get a low (or is it high? I can never remember) ISO speed camera, you can take quite good pictures indoors, in low light, without flashes.

And hybrid cars get better gas mileage, but that doesn't change the fact that folks who don't own hybrids are going to be driving normal cars to the meetup, etc. Enforcing equipment/practice solutions on the crowd is even less manageable than just enforcing a specific niche request, setting aside entirely the question of whether a photographer who intentionally uses flash in lowlight situations is going to be receptive in the first place to being told that they're doing it wrong.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:26 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Ok, so I will be happy to step out of the room for 10-15 minutes (30 seems a bit... much. And also, what am I supposed to do for half an hour?) for people to take flash photos if they really need to - and other than that, if one or two flashes go off *by accident* - I understand that it happens. I will also have my own camera that does a pretty good job with high ISO non-flash photos, so I'll try to contribute my best to photographic endeavors.

Is this good?
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:27 AM on July 16, 2009


I think this is a legit medical issue, and folks should do their best to accommodate it. A general no flash rule? Not necessary. But, for the meetups that grapefruitmoon or other epileptics attend, it is reasonable.

Who'd call a meetup for a non-accessible bar if they knew someone with a cane, wheelchair or crutches was coming? I don't see where this is any different.
posted by QIbHom at 11:30 AM on July 16, 2009 [11 favorites]


It seems like the solution here is not "NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY!" but "Could people give me a heads up before they take pictures so I can step out until you're done? I have epilepsy." Nobody harmed. Everybody happy.
posted by katillathehun at 11:30 AM on July 16, 2009 [4 favorites]


I don't understand fancy cameras, but boston beer works isn't a dive bar - it's a restaurant. I haven't been there in years, but if memory serves, here will be plenty of (non-flashing) light shining on our pretty faces.
posted by moxiedoll at 11:32 AM on July 16, 2009


Also, not to be a pain, but I think the specific logistics of the Boston meetup (and certainly agreement about the details) would make more sense back in the Boston thread, not here. I dig the brainstorming exchange, but "Is this good?" is a question for those folks specifically, not the general Metatalk crowd. Approval of out-of-towners is meaningless, and lack of buy-in from the locals is a practical obstacle.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:32 AM on July 16, 2009


grapefruitmoon--how do you usually handle flash photography? Do you just ask folks not use flash, or do you leave the room? This is not meant as snark; I'm genuinely curious because I have friends and reatives with this issue and I'm wondering if there's a solution that could benefit everyone.
posted by mattdidthat at 11:32 AM on July 16, 2009


And I'm fine with skipping meet-ups if it's not a reasonable thing to ask in advance that flashes be turned off. Sure, I'll miss hanging out with people, but I *don't* want to impose on people to dramatically alter their behavior or change the nature of the interaction.

Staying on top of the issue is probably no big deal at a smaller meetup, in the 5-10 people territory. At a large and particular occasion like the 10th anniversary meetup in Boston, I think that as a practical matter it would be very difficult to manage.

If you were coming to Toronto there would be a real dilemma. Either cause seizures in Chungking Express by taking away his flash, or cause seizures in grapefruitmoon by using it.
You might think I'm exaggerating, but I've met the guy :P
posted by Chuckles at 11:34 AM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


.
posted by chunking express at 11:37 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Every 5 minutes there will be a chime. At that point you have 5 seconds to close your eyes before the flashing starts.
Every 7 minutes there will be a gong. At that point you have 5 seconds to put on your fireproof suit before flames shoot into the room.
Every 17.5 minutes you will have no notice, but gasoline will be sprayed around the room.

Every 35 minutes there will be horrible, horrible over-exposed pictures of the worst meetup ever.
posted by blue_beetle at 11:38 AM on July 16, 2009 [14 favorites]


This is the type of thing that I would stand up and make an announcement about at the meetup, also asking people to help me avoid the problem and pass the word. Those of us with medical conditions need to be vigilant and just let people know.

I don't think you need to worry about Mefites ignoring a request like that. Plus, we're on the Internet... you do something that out of line and there will be a public lashing.
posted by zennie at 11:40 AM on July 16, 2009


Do you just ask folks not use flash, or do you leave the room?

I ask folks not to use it. In most cases where it's been people who don't know me that I have to ask, leaving the room hasn't been an option for me as I've been in group settings in restaurants myself (and it's someone from another party using the flash). Only once has it been a problem that the flash wasn't turned off and I felt like the biggest dick in the world because the user of the camera was a nine year old girl. That time, I DID have to leave the room.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:41 AM on July 16, 2009


I don't think you need to worry about Mefites ignoring a request like that.

Yeah, I thought so too, but that has categorically NOT been the response across the board.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:42 AM on July 16, 2009


grapefruitmoon - if you're given warning, can you duck and cover? I HATE flashes because they just hurt, but friends, when in the know, will give me a heads up so I can cover up.

It can even be a new meme: FLASH ALERT! DUCK AND COVER!

And I seriously think jscott was joking. It's like someone saying, "HEY EVERYBODY! STABBING HURTS, SO NO STABBING, K?" and me saying, "This will be interesting, because I am definitely going to be stabbing."*


* not going to be stabbing**
**[NOT STABBING-IST]
posted by zerokey at 11:44 AM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


I would appoint 2 or 3 people who know you to help remind others. That way you're not the only person doing it and there will be less defensiveness.

"Hey, you might not have heard, but grapefruitmoon has a problem with the flash, want me to show you how to turn it off? We're all trying to keep it safe for her because she's pretty awesome."
posted by kathrineg at 11:44 AM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


Flash photography is pretty annoying. It's bright and blinding. At the last Toronto meet up I took a shit load of photos. And a couple times during the night people from other groups would come by and ask me to stop. And i'd apologize, and stop. Except, I was totally loaded, so 10 minutes later i'd be back taking photos.

I'm actually not sure where I was going with this.

Anyways, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people not to take photos with a flash if you're going to have a seizure. That'd probably be a bigger downer on the night than not having clear photos.
posted by chunking express at 11:46 AM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Can I use this as an opportunity to express how fucking disappointed I am that I can't make the Chicago meetup?
posted by SpiffyRob at 11:47 AM on July 16, 2009


I second zennie that it's probably best to stand up at the meetup and make an annoucement, or have a polite sign on the door. Because not everyone who's attending is going to necessarily read the end of that thread! (I'll be at the Boston meetup, and I wouldn't have known about the issue if it hadn't been for this post.)
posted by marginaliana at 11:47 AM on July 16, 2009


And I seriously think jscott was joking

Yeah, that was not the response I got when I asked him about directly.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:48 AM on July 16, 2009


(And oh yeah, I was going to say something *at* the meet-up, it just helps to get the word out so that I don't have to be the *only* person saying something. I know a few Boston Me-Fites have been pre-acquainted with the issue - I was at the MegaMeetup in Cambridge back in... March? What month was that? ... no-flash wasn't a problem. "Get grapefruitmoon to shut up and stop gesticulating" was definitely more difficult.)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:50 AM on July 16, 2009


Just post his MeMail you know you want to.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:52 AM on July 16, 2009


jscott is going to a different meetup, so he's not an issue anymore. Asking people to warn you before taking flash photos is perfectly reasonable whether you're the only one asking or not. It's epilepsy. Anyone who can't respect that is not going to care whether we have etiquette rules in place or not. In my experience, people are generally pretty cool at these things - so I don't think anyone's going to walk away from this experience wishing they'd never gone.
posted by katillathehun at 11:55 AM on July 16, 2009


Or challenge him to a swordfight.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:56 AM on July 16, 2009


Grapefruitmoon- does wearing sunglasses prevent your flash sensitivity? Just wondering if that would be a potential solution. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask people not to use flash photography, but as Cortex alluded to, it might be hard to manage in a large group situation with people coming and going at various times. Besides, you can just tell everyone it's because your future is so bright.
posted by emd3737 at 11:56 AM on July 16, 2009


does wearing sunglasses prevent your flash sensitivity?

No, but it would be an interesting fashion statement! They'd go well with my sword for any potential duels that Potomac Avenue would suggest.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 11:58 AM on July 16, 2009


Ok, so I will be happy to step out of the room for 10-15 minutes (30 seems a bit... much. And also, what am I supposed to do for half an hour?) for people to take flash photos if they really need to - and other than that, if one or two flashes go off *by accident* - I understand that it happens. I will also have my own camera that does a pretty good job with high ISO non-flash photos, so I'll try to contribute my best to photographic endeavors.

Is this good?


I totally respect and adore you, grapefruitmoon, but I think expecting the attendees of a large event to adapt their behavior the needs of one single person is unreasonable. This backup plan of leaving for a brief time doesn't minimize the fact that a completely commonplace aspect of the event will revolve entirely around you and your whereabouts. If anything, it will draw even more attention to the situation than simply having a "no flash photography" rule.

As much as it pains me to say so, I think you're better off sticking with what you can personally control in this situation rather than change the game for everyone else.
posted by hermitosis at 11:58 AM on July 16, 2009 [6 favorites]


pI wear my sunglasses so you can so you can flash me without prompting a seizure.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:59 AM on July 16, 2009


"Is this good?

I'd be completely comfortable with that. Seems like a very reasonable compromise.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:00 PM on July 16, 2009


As much as it pains me to say so, I think you're better off sticking with what you can personally control in this situation rather than change the game for everyone else.

Yeah, I've been coming to the same conclusion from this discussion.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:01 PM on July 16, 2009


i'm not suggesting that you have a duel! i'm only saying, if you do have one, be sure to remind him that you're allergic to stabbing.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:01 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


Meetup ettiquette dictates that you always, always give a reacharound. Anything less is uncivilized.

Taking photos at meetups is so 2004. All the cool kids are sketching the night's events on one another's torso with a sharpie as the evening proceeds.
posted by Eideteker at 12:04 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


cortex: "Enforcing equipment/practice solutions on the crowd is even less manageable than just enforcing a specific niche request, setting aside entirely the question of whether a photographer who intentionally uses flash in lowlight situations is going to be receptive in the first place to being told that they're doing it wrong."

I'm not suggesting enforcement of anything. ISO settings are an option that people often aren't aware of on their cameras, and it seemed relevant.

cortex: "Approval of out-of-towners is meaningless, and lack of buy-in from the locals is a practical obstacle."

Agreed, I'm bowing out.
posted by boo_radley at 12:05 PM on July 16, 2009


posted by hermitosis I totally respect and adore you, grapefruitmoon, but I think expecting the attendees of a large event to adapt their behavior the needs of one single person is unreasonable.

If someone had a severe peanut allergy, I don't think it's unreasonable for that person to ask that the meetup not be held at a Thai restaurant.
posted by mattdidthat at 12:06 PM on July 16, 2009 [4 favorites]


I'm sorry about your condition, and I think that asking people not to cause you seizures is perfectly reasonable. But I also think that phrasing your request in stoner LOLcat is just asking for trouble.

I have faulty brains and that stuff makes me ill like whoa.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:14 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


Can I use this as an opportunity to express how fucking disappointed I am that I can't make the Chicago meetup?

Only if you're prepared for our disappointment in you.
posted by adamdschneider at 12:14 PM on July 16, 2009


I'm so fucking glad that Metafilter's 10th is looking like it will become every fucking family get together I've been to in the last ten years. The drama... the drama... (said in Marlon Brando voice)
posted by Elmore at 12:14 PM on July 16, 2009


grapefruitmoon join us in New Orleans. I'll round up all camaras and put them in a bag which I'll stand guard over with a poiny stick.

In all seriousness this really bums me out. I'm going to rack my tiny brain for a solution.
posted by nola at 12:15 PM on July 16, 2009


I totally respect and adore you, grapefruitmoon, but I think expecting the attendees of a large event to adapt their behavior the needs of one single person is unreasonable. This backup plan of leaving for a brief time doesn't minimize the fact that a completely commonplace aspect of the event will revolve entirely around you and your whereabouts. If anything, it will draw even more attention to the situation than simply having a "no flash photography" rule.

Yeah, it would be much better if you let them tie a blindfold on you for Picture Time!

I don't agree with hermitosis. Because I'm hermatosis-ist.
posted by zennie at 12:15 PM on July 16, 2009


Jumping in late: I would have started that conversation in a very different tone, grapefruitmoon. I am sensitive to scents, and in some circumstances they can make me very ill. I have been dealing with asking people to accommodate my invisible need for scent-free space for many years. My process for bringing this up with people goes like this:

1. Factually describe the situation.

2. Offer some possible solutions based on past experiences I've had.

3. Ask for feedback and additional suggestions.

So, for instance, say I'm going to a conference where I'll be assigned an unknown roommate. I might write something like this to the conference list-serve:

I have allergies and sensitivities to fragrance. This includes many natural fragrances and ingredients in some "unscented" products. While I can tolerate light exposures fairly well, it's important for my participation in the conference that I not be heavily exposed. That means I cannot have a roommate who uses perfume, essential oils, or scented lotions or oils; or who uses scented products in the shower.

If someone is willing to do without fragrance for the weekend, I am happy to provide fragrance-free products to my roommate. I'll bring soap, shampoo, conditioner, shaving cream, lotion, bug spray, and sunscreen and am happy so share. If there are other products you use, let me know and I'd be happy to provide a fragrance-free version for the weekend or suggest some products and where you might be able to find them.

If there is a product you can't switch for the weekend, let me know. It is possible to be a little bit flexible with some things. For instance, if my roommate waits to shower until after I've left in the morning, or applies certain products only out of the room. But this depends on the specific product and how scented it is.

Any takers? I'm otherwise easy to live with.


I'd have introduced the flash photography issue very differently than "NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY." I'd have written something like this:

I am looking forward to the meetup. I have epilepsy, though, and will have a seizure after being exposed to about 5 flashes. I'd like to talk in advance about how we'll handle this, so I can be well and people can also take their pictures. Some ideas I have:

1. People can not take any flash photos that evening. I know this will be hard for some folks, so I have some other ideas, too.

2. If people will agree to only non-flash photography while I'm in the room, I'd be happy to step out for a few minutes at some point so people can take flash photos.

3. I'm usually an early-to-bed kind of person, and will probably leave the meetup by 10 or so. People could wait to take flash photography until after I leave.

4. Other ideas? I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks! I'm really excited about seeing people.


I have tremendously good responses when I clearly state my own needs; offer to help people meet them (it can be tricky to find frag-free products, or for people to understand what is or isn't frag-free, so me supplying products helps us both); be open to multiple solutions to the problem, not only NO SCENTED PRODUCTS AT ALL; invite people to problem-solve with me.
posted by not that girl at 12:17 PM on July 16, 2009 [27 favorites]


I'm not suggesting enforcement of anything. ISO settings are an option that people often aren't aware of on their cameras, and it seemed relevant.

I may have come off more strident than I meant to, so let me clarify that enforcement and education are for practical purposes on the short term the same thing and my objection as far as that goes is just that I think it's impractical to accomplish either in a large group on short notice.

A crowd of folks who don't know about ISO settings on their cameras are going to require just as much and probably more direct interaction and convincing as those who do, as far as making "use high ISO to avoid the need for a flash" something that actually affects the notional meetup situation.

If someone had a severe peanut allergy, I don't think it's unreasonable for that person to ask that the meetup not be held at a Thai restaurant.

I don't mean to imply that these situations are perfectly analogous, but if someone had a severe peanut allergy they would pretty much be on the hook for deciding whether or not to attend a Thai Foodie meetup.

Photography is a long-standing and pervasive norm at mefi meetups, and flash photography is a very normal and common subset of photography, especially at evening indoor events, which is why the distinction between reasonable-in-principle and accomplishable-in-practice is coming up here. It is awesome if folks can manage to come together to manage to accommodate grapefruitmoon on this, but it is not awful (anti-awesome?) of them to behave like normal meetup attendees.

It sucks that it creates a conflict, and I don't want gfm to have to feel left out of stuff, but the conflict here is one-to-many and involves suspending en masse a type of behavior that most folks would have no idea needed suspending without direct interjection.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:17 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


What about letting everyone know in advance to warn you by shouting CHEESE! before taking a picture? That way you could shut your eyes before hand. I don't know, just a thought.
posted by nola at 12:18 PM on July 16, 2009


Well, what I'm kind of wondering is asking "no flash plz!" standard social etiquette or AM I being a total boner?

"no flash plz!" and "NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY. Seriously." are not questions.
posted by iconomy at 12:19 PM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


But I also think that phrasing your request in stoner LOLcat is just asking for trouble.

I CAN HAZ SEIZURGLER???

Not helping am I? I'll phone you next week mom, I have to get out of here before the table gets flipped.
posted by Elmore at 12:21 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


If someone had a severe peanut allergy, I don't think it's unreasonable for that person to ask that the meetup not be held at a Thai restaurant.

That's not a great argument, there are lots of ways around that. The person could bring their own food, for example, or simply eat before they came and just enjoy a few drinks.

I'm sorely allergic to cigarette smoke, and there are lots of meetups I've left or not attended because of the setting and the potential concentration of smokers. Whenever we gather somewhere outdoors in close quarters, like bar patios, there are usually at least four cigarettes burning at any given moment. In the past I've tried to steer meetup locations toward venues where this won't be an issue, but otherwise there's little I can do.

Grapefruitmoon's situation is more extreme than mine, and this is no everyday meetup. But in organizing a big anniversary event, not everyone's needs can be accounted for. It's like choosing where and when to have a wedding -- no matter what you choose, someone winds up being excluded. I hope that grapefruitmoon doesn't wind up being excluded, but she's basically in a situation where going means she has to choose between vocally and vigilantly interfering with other people's activities or potentially getting really sick. Either way she's not going to be able to relax and have the great time that others are having.
posted by hermitosis at 12:22 PM on July 16, 2009


But I also think that phrasing your request in stoner LOLcat is just asking for trouble.

I just type like I talk, man.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:23 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


grapefruitmoon: "Yeah, I'd rather go to the party, but I'd also rather not have a seizure and have no problem staying home if the cost/benefit analysis indicates that it's easier for me to not go than to expect people not to use flash. "

I'm pretty sure that the twenty to fourty of us who met you at the last couple of meetups will be happy to play flash-nazi-proxy if it means preventing a grapefruitmoonless tenth. Flash photography might be everyone's default in a dark environment, but as I said in the meetup thread, I think it's a behavior that could use some negative reinforcement.
posted by Plutor at 12:24 PM on July 16, 2009


From the discussion that's going on, I honestly had no idea (honestly) that this was going to be as big a deal as it is. I guess I'm glad that I brought it up, so now I know ahead of time and can make a decision based on this as to whether or not I'll go. It seems to me like "Guys, please turn off your flash" isn't a huge request to make - but even more puzzling that the fact that is is the tone that some of the responses have that "couldn't you just wear sunglasses?" or something indicating that rather than ask politely to have people turn off their flashes, I should just modify my behavior - which really, if I could, I *would* and this would be a total non-issue.

And maybe this is just because I'm having a stupid day, but if you had to ask me right now, I'm going to bow out and skip this one.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:27 PM on July 16, 2009


I'm pretty sure that the twenty to fourty of us who met you at the last couple of meetups will be happy to play flash-nazi-proxy if it means preventing a grapefruitmoonless tenth.

Well, I do appreciate the thought. Honestly though, feeling like I'm being the proverbial wet blanket here, which is a feeling I'm getting pretty strongly, is pushing me towards the stance that it's not something I want to do. Especially since now I've gone and made a fool out of myself over here, so I'll just wear my MeFite T and play Broken Picture Telephone with my cat and be with y'all in spirit.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:31 PM on July 16, 2009


but even more puzzling that the fact that is is the tone that some of the responses have that "couldn't you just wear sunglasses?" or something indicating that rather than ask politely to have people turn off their flashes

I think that this has less to do with people being insensitive about your condition and more to do with ignorance about it. It is not reasonable to infer from your post that you can't "safely coexist" (your scare quotes, my words) in the same room with flash photography if it's far away from you. And it might not be obvious to others that wearing sunglasses wouldn't work. It's not puzzling at all that everyone's first instinct is to try and forge a compromise between your epilepsy and reasonable use of flash photography.
posted by kosem at 12:32 PM on July 16, 2009


gfm - a lot of people don't understand epilepsy. You can't fault them for making suggestions that aren't going work. And I hate to say it, but you sort of made it a big deal when you made a MeTa post about it. But I don't see why this thread should keep you from going to the meetup. You now know how people feel about the issue, and you have some methods in hand for avoiding an unpleasant scenario. It'll be okay!
posted by katillathehun at 12:32 PM on July 16, 2009


In other words, let's assume that people were trying to offer what they believed to be helpful suggestions, rather than denying the seriousness of your condition. Unequivocally: it goddam sucks that you have to deal with it and/or that it forces this type of calculus upon you.
posted by kosem at 12:35 PM on July 16, 2009


Or challenge him to a swordfight.

In a pit, of course. That's tha OG style.
posted by Mister_A at 12:36 PM on July 16, 2009


No, seriously. Use a blindfold. :)

hermitosis, I don't agree with what you're saying because grapefruitmoon has the right to ask for this. Requesting a special circumstance for flash photography is perfectly reasonable due to the nature of the problem and the fact that there are ways to accommodate. It's not going to ruin anyone's night... well, except for that one guy. And cortex is right... it's the Boston meetup people who matter, and they seem generally pretty concerned, responsive, and willing. Where's the problem?
posted by zennie at 12:37 PM on July 16, 2009


Let's all just be glad that no one is thrown into seizures by observing the pleasurable consumption of adult beverages.
posted by Plutor at 12:37 PM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


On a partial tangent, if you have a condition like epilepsy or diabetes or suchlike, please make sure you have some sort of MedicAlert or other notification system in place.

You're going to be at a meetup with lots of people, some or all of whom may be strangers to you: if, God forbid, something happens to you, it may save your life to have something on you that has clear information on it for EMS personnel.

Also, if you get completely incapacitated by drugs, alcohol, or simply being near cortex, it's generally good if people know your name and who to call to tell them that you're sleeping it off.

Anyway, if you have a medical condition that should be noted by EMS, us EMS types love it if you have the following information easily accessible:
  • Your name.
  • The condition(s) you have that might kill you if we don't know about them.
  • The drugs you take for those condition(s).
  • Any allergies to specific medicines or substances, like penicillin or latex.
  • Who we should call. Even better, how to get in touch with your doctor.
Not that anything like this will happen, but better safe than sorry. Personally, I use a MedicAlert necklace, but I've also fallen in love with RoadID.

Organizers: please make sure that it's clear where all the emergency exits are and that someone knows the actual street address in case you need to call 911. Please.
posted by scrump at 12:38 PM on July 16, 2009 [4 favorites]


posted by hermitosis Grapefruitmoon's situation is . . . basically a situation where going means she has to choose between vocally and vigilantly interfering with other people's activities or potentially getting really sick. Either way she's not going to be able to relax and have the great time that others are having.

I don't think it's that kind of a choice. Grapefruitmoon cannot alter her condition--if all she needed to do was put on sunglasses or take a pill, she would do just that. But she cannot, so she is asking for people to help her not have a seizure by not using a flash. I fail to understand why this is an unreasonable request.
posted by mattdidthat at 12:39 PM on July 16, 2009


Yeah, if it helps I lost my camera with a flash months ago. I'll even skip wearing the giant discoball hat I bought to fill the hole in my heart where my camera once dwelt.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:41 PM on July 16, 2009 [4 favorites]


It seems to me like "Guys, please turn off your flash" isn't a huge request to make - but even more puzzling that the fact that is is the tone that some of the responses have that "couldn't you just wear sunglasses?" or something indicating that rather than ask politely to have people turn off their flashes, I should just modify my behavior - which really, if I could, I *would* and this would be a total non-issue.

Well, this post was basically asking "Is requesting a 'No Flash' policy at a meetup unreasonable?" so to me it's not surprising that some people said "Yes it is unreasonable" even though I don't agree with them. If it was obvious that everyone would agree then there wouldn't be a point in posting to MetaTalk about it. In my opinion you don't need unanimous support for this to work though, people can reach a consensus on things like this even if dissenting opinions exist.
posted by burnmp3s at 12:41 PM on July 16, 2009


Honestly, this does seem like a bit of a mountain out of a molehill, here. Why not designate a PHOTO-ZONE where people can take pictures without harming or killing our friend?

And the bonus is, if you're in the PHOTO-ZONE people know that you're cool with having your picture taken, posted to the web, digitally enhanced (addition of porno cocks,etc.), and re-posted to 4chan.
posted by Mister_A at 12:43 PM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


Rules of conduct? Screw this. There's no way I'm going if I can't show up nude with a strobe light and a Fuck Me hat.

Also, I'll be spitting sulfuric acid.

FYI.
posted by Afroblanco at 12:43 PM on July 16, 2009 [4 favorites]


But I don't see why this thread should keep you from going to the meetup. You now know how people feel about the issue,

Your second sentence explains the first. Yeah, I made too much of it and now I know that this is a one-shot scenario where my mental calculus *must* include flash photography as "extremely likely." I'm not going to go into a situation that is a total set-up that I need to create contingency plans. It's going to be extremely unpleasant for me, not least of which because yeah, I made too much of it and now I feel like an ass. I've been to meet-ups before, and I'll go to meet-ups again, but so far the calculus for the 10th looks like the greater good (for me and everyone else) is best served by my building a model longboat out of toothpicks.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:44 PM on July 16, 2009


In my opinion you don't need unanimous support for this to work though, people can reach a consensus on things like this even if dissenting opinions exist.

Well, yeah. I posed a hypothetical, which has been teased apart and it really looks to me like there really are too many variables (people x cameras x alcohol) to actually bring up any sort of consensus pre-event. And yes, I know that "You are being unreasonable" was a possibility before I brought it to MeTa, so no, I'm not shocked or surprised in the least to find out that no, this is not actually feasible.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:47 PM on July 16, 2009


I'm sorry to hear that. I don't think you're an ass.
posted by Mister_A at 12:49 PM on July 16, 2009


"but even more puzzling that the fact that is is the tone that some of the responses have that [...] I should just modify my behavior"

Well.... you are asking people to avoid doing something they were likely looking forward to doing, *and* something that the vast majority of people have never been asked to avoid, *and* something that is a regular part of meetups. Hardly puzzling that you'd get pushback. Remember, MeFi meetup or not these are still 65 strangers on the Internet.

As I've said, I have zero problem with the compromise. But I hate using flash anyway.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:51 PM on July 16, 2009


I'm not shocked or surprised in the least to find out that no, this is not actually feasible.

Maybe I missed it, but who (attending the Boston meetup) is saying it's a problem?
posted by zennie at 12:52 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Hermitosis: expecting the attendees of a large event to adapt their behavior the needs of one single person is unreasonable.

Mattdidthat: If someone had a severe peanut allergy, I don't think it's unreasonable for that person to ask that the meetup not be held at a Thai restaurant.

That's actually the crux of the problem. Someone who asked for a venue to be chosen to make it easier for them to avoid a food allergy, say, or a place that was wheelchair-accessible, might go down easier because it's a one-time choice that doesn't require per-person buy-in or enforcement. No flash photography, on the other hand, is the kind of thing that requires per-person buy-in and enforcement.

So it's not surprising that at least one person has essentially said they feel their desire to use flash photography at the event is more important than your desire to attend it at all, grapefruitmoon. Presumably for that person, taking pictures with a flash is one of the reasons -- possibly the key reason -- they want to attend the meetup, so in their mind your situation and their is in direct opposition in scale.

For this event, it sounds like neither you nor he are going to attend, and I won't comment on whose behavior is correct or anything like that. I will say this, though: going forward, you might want to consider raising your restriction before a venue is chosen. That would have turned it into a group one-time decision, and the timing of the event might have been made earlier and/or the location changed to allow people to take all the pictures they want without needing a flash, and so the two of you would have both attended and possibly turned into good friends.
posted by davejay at 12:53 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Don't beat yourself up grapefruitmoon, there's nothing wrong with asking.
posted by nola at 12:53 PM on July 16, 2009


I just want to throw in a couple of facts that may help grapefruitmoon make her decision about whether or not to attend. (I'm not going, but I think it would be a shame for anyone to miss it over this.)

1) It sounds like you guys have the upstairs room at Boston Beer Works reserved. That means the group should have plenty of control over the ambient lighting, plus there are big windows for while the sun is out. Flash photography shouldn't be strictly necessary for documenting the event, which is going to be all that most of the photographers care about.

2) If you do want to give people a chance to break out their "lighting package" (as it were), or if people aren't being cool about keeping the flashes off, you can go downstairs to the main bar for a beer or a snack.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 12:54 PM on July 16, 2009


You're not an ass. You should come.










Explosion!
posted by mds35 at 12:54 PM on July 16, 2009


scrump has a great point. I won't know anyone's real name at the meetup, and vice versa. "desjardins" has no connection to my actual name. If something happened to me, they wouldn't have a clue whom to contact or how. I keep my doctor's business card in my purse with some medical specifics on the back, and I have ICE contacts in my phone. I encourage you all to do the same.
posted by desjardins at 12:55 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I really hope this turns out to be a non-issue. There were a few of us with cameras at the Cambridge mega-meetup and I don't think anyone had a problem with the "no flash" request. I'll even bring a tripod if anyone needs it.

I have not known any of the Boston crew to be anything other than courteous and gracious, so I don't think there will be any problems. Beer Works is usually pretty well-lit anyway and after a couple of beers you're gonna forget about your camera anyway.

If someone were to request having the meetup at a place without booze, though - that's just asking for a beating.
posted by backseatpilot at 12:59 PM on July 16, 2009


we all know the urban legend (or real story?) about the person who had an anaphylactic reaction after kissing another person who had just eaten peanut butter

Tangent: my daughter wouldn't eat peanut butter, with the first bite of a pb&j would say it "hurt [her] tongue", and she was still young enough that we didn't know if it really hurt or that was her way of saying she didn't like the taste. We started giving her almond butter instead, and it was fine, and I usually made hers first. A few months later I used the same knife to make my son's pb&j sandwich before her almond butter one, and only casually rinsed and wiped off the knife in between. While chewing the first bite, she spit it out and complained that her tongue was hurting. Fast forward two years, and her first allergy tests show she has a peanut allergy strong enough to require an epi-pen.

So even if it is an urban legend, there's no reason to believe it's an exaggeration.
posted by davejay at 12:59 PM on July 16, 2009


Well.... you are asking people to avoid doing something they were likely looking forward to doing, *and* something that the vast majority of people have never been asked to avoid, *and* something that is a regular part of meetups. Hardly puzzling that you'd get pushback.

I am asking these people to make these modifications not because of personal preference but because of a medical condition. So, yeah, the extent to which I've gotten push-back is nothing if not discouraging. If I just said I don't LIKE flash, yes, then by all means, say "Well, you can just leave the room." What I'm saying is "Hey guys, I've been a member of this site for over four years and I'd really love to attend this 10th anniversary party because the site has meant a lot to me and I've met 20+ of you before and had a wicked awesome time and I'd really, really love to go to this event. But hey. I have epilepsy and I know that photos are part of a meet-ups, so can we have some kind of aggreement that we'll try not to use flash so that I can stay conscious for the whole thing because the only thing MORE embarrassing than discussing my medical condition in great detail on the internet is having an actual seizure IN PUBLIC in front of people, some of whom I've never met, especially since I would be traveling a great distance for this event and would be at the mercy of public transit to get home and I really, really do NOT want to have a seizure, did I mention that they suck? So yeah, could we just try to turn off the flash on our cameras at the door, so I don't have to be on high alert? Would that be ok?"

And the response that I'm hearing: "Well, yeah, some of us are cool with that, but you can't reasonably expect that we'll all be on board, so you should probably plan for flash anyway." And/or "Well, yeah, you can ASK, but you can't actually make anyone change, so don't plan on it."

Not surprising, but yes, very discouraging. There is nothing I can do about my disability and I have to, as mentioned, constantly weigh the options when deciding to go out. I'm discouraged to have to put "10th Anniversary Meet-Up" in the same category of "Crap I Can't Reasonably Expect to Do" along with "Guitar Hero."

(Seriously! I am pissed that I can not play Guitar Hero!)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 12:59 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


So if we're planning a meetup and a suggestion goes out for a thai restaurant and MemberXXXX says "Hey, I'm really allergic to peanuts, can we go somewhere else?" would people here really respond with "No, I've been craving Thai." ????

Mefites in general seem like a pretty decent lot, very inclusive during meetups, not always on the site, in fact, often on the web mefites seem to be spoiling for a fight. Bearing this in mind, I am still very disappointed at the reaction. Grapefruitmoon's request is not unreasonable. Is trying not to use flashes really so hard and painful of a request that you want to deny someone the opportunity to attend the 10th ANNIVERSARY PARTY!!!!! This is going to be a really cool event, (I hope/think), I certainly am not going to be the one that says "my use of flash photography is so important that I want you to stay home." It isn't a request for all meetups to have no flashes, or for the Boston meetup to have no cameras allowed, it is a request for a great mefite to be able to enjoy the celebration of Metafilter's 10th Birthday, without having seizure.

Grapefruitmoon, GO TO THE MEETUP PARTY AND HAVE FUN. If someone seriously can't cope with your request, punch 'em hard in the penis/breast). You might have to leave a bit early if drunk people start being assholes, but enjoy it while you can.

(maybe bring some black electrical tape or something for people who can't remember or are too drunk to turn off their flash)
posted by silkygreenbelly at 1:02 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Maybe I missed it, but who (attending the Boston meetup) is saying it's a problem?

I don't have a problem (that disco hat is a bit... ostentatious for the event, plus it gives me horrible, blinding neck pain) and as long as banjo keeps taking the pills that keeps her exhibitionism in check, I'm pretty sure she won't have a problem with the no flashing rule either.

Wait, what?

Seriously, you should come, grapefruit. I'm bringing The Wheel.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:02 PM on July 16, 2009 [6 favorites]


I've got it! Hire a museum tour guide to come with you, then anytime someone takes a flash photo he or she can politely say "Sir, flash photography is not allowed" Also he could put up velvet ropes around stuff.

Sorry I'm just trying to cheer you up.
posted by nola at 1:02 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


raising your restriction before a venue is chosen

Oh, venue doesn't matter. If it's post 8PM, it's gonna be dark, and the only places with *good* lighting don't serve booze -and no way in hell do I want to have a meet-up in a place that doesn't at least SERVE booze. I don't mind being the only sober person in a room, but I really DO mind being in a Denny's.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:02 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


In fact, I have a special flash attachment for anyone really set on using it that's specifically designed to prevent annoyances and seizures. It's a heavy black vinyl bag that fits right over the whole flash head. I can bring electrical tape for those of you with point-and-shoots.
posted by backseatpilot at 1:04 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Grapefruitmoon, I live with an epileptic and I've been in the shit, but none of that really matters to what I have to say here, which is, basically. "duh!" MetaTalk isn't the place to effectively manage group behavior, even that which is related in theory to this website. Why you posted this when you could have just got the word out at the meetup itself is unclear to me. I guess you just need validation. So, here you go: ask for what you need, and whoever's a dick is a dick.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:05 PM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


grapefruitmoon - I have a spare pair of welder's goggles I could bring. They would protect your eyes and give you a +2 Awesomeness.
posted by zerokey at 1:05 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


Well, I do have approximately 48 hours in which to bring down the overwhelming "Feeling Like Wet Blanket." We'll see how that goes.

Perhaps I will spend that time making myself a museum-style sign indicating that Flash Photography Is Not Allowed In This Exhibit to wear around my neck.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:05 PM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


Hell, it's light on up till 9:00 PM right now. Go outside for nice no-flash pictures.

BTW -- the Beer Works (on Canal) has an outdoor patio. They leave the sliding glass doors open, so there should be plenty of ambient light in the front part of the interior space where I suspect many/most will gather as it abutts the main bar.
posted by ericb at 1:07 PM on July 16, 2009


Why you posted this when you could have just got the word out at the meetup itself is unclear to me.

It's not just you. It's becoming ever less clear to myself by the minute. It SEEMED like the polite thing to do, to ask in advance - and it started in the Boston thread. But now, I think I just shot myself in the foot because, duh, jumping on my pogo stick with a loaded gun is an AWESOME idea.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:08 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I do have approximately 48 hours in which to bring down the overwhelming "Feeling Like Wet Blanket."

You know, don't discount the fact that people like being able to help someone out. Are you really going to deny the lovely volunteers in this thread the chance to be Flash Nazis and use electrical tape? Don't be selfish, now.
posted by zennie at 1:08 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


You should put this one right next to it as the consequence for firing a flash.
posted by backseatpilot at 1:08 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Well unfortunately, the demand you originally posted in the meet-up thread isn't a whole lot like the request you're making here. I know that you say you type like you speak, but it would be nice if you had made a little more effort to modify your behavior (in requesting/demanding) so that others would feel better about needing to modify their (by not taking flash photos). I do feel like it's a reasonable request to make, but you didn't actually request it, initially.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 1:12 PM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


I don't know what you posted, backseatpilot, but it must have been very naughty as it was blocked by the library.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:12 PM on July 16, 2009


"Not surprising, but yes, very discouraging."

If I were you I'd be angry and discouraged, for what it's worth.

I think it really depends on what people at the Boston meetup think. If they want you to come, and they'll help police it, I think you should go. Yes, people x dump camera design x drunk people is a nasty metric, but it will be a great event. Of course I'm not the one risking convulsions.

As an aside, I have a friend who has convulsions issues similar to this. It's something he needs to plan his life around. This isn't a trivial sort of request.
posted by y6y6y6 at 1:13 PM on July 16, 2009


Making this a semantics issue seems a bit disingenuous to me: "Oh, well, when you mentioned this in a casual manner off of the top of your head, that wasn't ok. But now that you've spelled it out and said 'Pretty please' I'll do it."

It's still about a request pertaining to a disability, either way. Saying "I'll respect your seizures only if you ask REALLY nicely" feels a bit like backhanded sort of acquiescence and less like "Oh yeah, sure, whatevs man." which is really all that I'm asking.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:16 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


Yeah girl, I'd just be standing up every hour and shouting "Nobody forgot I have the epilepsy, right? Because if you forget and thake flash photos and I have a seizure, it's gonna be awkward!" You know, a little humor about it is all it takes. Heck, I might adopt this strategy; flash makes me look hella bloated.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:17 PM on July 16, 2009


This is bullshit and I'm calling you out on it!!!

How are we supposed to have a decent meetup and not flash our tits at cameras?

(Wait...what? Flash photography? Oh.)

Carry on.
posted by ColdChef at 1:21 PM on July 16, 2009


[NOT NEW ORLEANS-IST]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:22 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


If I were you I'd be angry and discouraged, for what it's worth.

That's kind of what we would call putting it mildly. I think I've been talked into going, if only to see what this Wheel is, but man. This is the kind of shit that I hate MOST about having a disability.

"Oh hi! I'm going to explain my personal medical condition to you on the internet in hopes that you'll help me stay conscious at this party, ok? I really don't like talking about this shit, but it seems like it would be best to do it upfront rather than having to do it eight times AT the meetup and then maybe when we get there I can kind of pretend like I'm a normal person, except that I can't drink, but that's ok. My liver will thank me later, I'm sure. Anyhow. Wait. What? We can't do this? Really? It's more important for people to take pictures than for me not to have a seizure? Well, yeah, I guess there are more of them than there are of me, but man. Ok, yeah, the seizures are kind of my own problem and I need to make my choices based on that, fair enough. But seriously? I didn't think that THIS was going to have to be one of those choices. Guess I shouldn't have brought it up. Nevermind. Except wait. I already brought it up. On the internet. And now I feel like a tool because not only do I feel invalidated, I'm invalidated ON THE INTERNET and I'm now going to be that jerk who has the MetaTalk thread about her disability. Great. Why was this a good idea?"

Why I wrote this as if I wasn't myself, well, maybe it's because having an epileptic alter-ego seems more appealing than being THAT DUDE.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:22 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


You know, a little humor about it is all it takes.

I tried that, and apparently, it translated as "Stoner LOLCat" and I needed to go back and put on my monocle.

[NOT MONOCLE-IST.]
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:24 PM on July 16, 2009


Your request is completely reasonable. My priority list for Meetups is:

1. See old people
2. Meet new people
3. Drink beer
4. Look at photos from the Meetup.

If I had to skip #4 for the sake of #2, that would be fine with me.

How about a drinking game? Whoever forgets and takes a flash photo has to buy a round.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:24 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


we all know the urban legend (or real story?) about the person who had an anaphylactic reaction after kissing another person who had just eaten peanut butter

Not an urban legend. I've witnessed my nephew have an allergic reaction -- face blew up, broke out in rash, took antihistimines to bring the reaction under control -- after a kiss on the cheek from his dad, when his dad had eaten fish. Anything oily sticks around for a while.

In general, people with medical conditions don't go around exaggerating their sensitivities because they like the drama; it's a pain they'd rather not have to deal with.

gfm, it's a perfectly reasonable request, unfortunately in an inappropriate forum, but it seems like the only people who actually matter -- Boston attendees -- are saying they'll not only refrain themselves, but enforce the restriction on others. You should go. If people aren't nice, you should leave. But that's a piece of advice I think covers all gatherings for which you're not getting paid.
posted by palliser at 1:27 PM on July 16, 2009


"Saying "I'll respect your seizures only if you ask REALLY nicely" feels a bit like backhanded sort of acquiescence"

I disagree. What do you think is more reasonable? Starting the request as -

"NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY. Seriously."

or

"I have a medical condition. Please help. I'm sure we can reach a happy compromise."

You surely understand the all-caps demand is going to put people off. You didn't even say please. I'm on your side with having people compromise about avoiding flash, but asking really nicely seems like a fair expectation as well.
posted by y6y6y6 at 1:28 PM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


"Great. Why was this a good idea?"

So you can go to the MeFi 10th party and meet cool people?
posted by y6y6y6 at 1:30 PM on July 16, 2009


y6y6y6: You forget the part where I start with "I don't want to be a total boner."

Which is to say, if I put on my fedora: "Look, I hate to even have to put this precondition in the first place, so can we just get on with it and not use flash? It's a serious issue for me."
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:30 PM on July 16, 2009


For what it's worth, I'm planning on going, and I haven't been checking the thread itself recently, so I would not have known that flash photography was not a good idea unless there was a sign or something at the venue. I'm not planning on taking any pictures so my individual case doesn't matter, but be aware that there may be people there with cameras who haven't seen what you said on the thread.
posted by dfan at 1:31 PM on July 16, 2009


This is a medical condition, and should be accomidated. I don't care how large the group is or how difficult it might be to accomodate. Limiting somebody's access because of a disability should not be an option.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:31 PM on July 16, 2009 [15 favorites]


that's a piece of advice I think covers all gatherings for which you're not getting paid.

Wait... there are gatherings for which I could get PAID?

I'm listening.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:31 PM on July 16, 2009


I will drive an AMC Hornet to New Orleans to see ColdChef's tits.
posted by Mister_A at 1:32 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


And the all caps shouldn't matter. As far as I am concerned, grapefruitmoon has as much a right to demand equal access, in all caps, as somebody in a wheelchair would have the right to demand, in all caps, PLZ DO NOT HAVE THE PARTY AT THE TOP OF A SHAG-RUG COVERED STAIRWAY.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:32 PM on July 16, 2009 [5 favorites]


grapefruitmoon -- you might want to stake a claim on the outdoor patio for most of the meet-up ... or just inside at one of the high-tops. What's to say that others at Beer Works who are not part of the meet-up will be using flash cameras? After all the place is 16,000 square feet with two floors and very popular pre- and post- events at the Garden (aka TD Banknorth Garden -- but, no one calls it that in Boston).

FYI -- the Jonas Brothers are performing that night at the Garden (7:30 p.m.), so it's likely there won't be hoardes of drunk sports fans. There may be some parents who've dirched the tweens at the concert, waiting it out until the show is over.
posted by ericb at 1:32 PM on July 16, 2009


grapefruitmoon: "And the response that I'm hearing: "Well, yeah, some of us are cool with that, but you can't reasonably expect that we'll all be on board, so you should probably plan for flash anyway." And/or "Well, yeah, you can ASK, but you can't actually make anyone change, so don't plan on it." "

It's better to think of it this way... for any given person responding to your original question, if they say "don't worry, no one will use a flash" then they risk being proven wrong with potentially disastrous medical consequences for you.

Since there's no Supreme Allied Commander of the meetup, no one can really give you the answer you're wishing for with any authority. The best they can do is reassure you with an explicit caveat.

It's not that they wouldn't welcome you there. On the contrary, it's that they really do want you to be there and have a good (and safe) time. Omitting the disclaimer would be reckless. Including it shows they care.
posted by Riki tiki at 1:33 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


It's no big deal. The cops already told me I had to stop flashing chicks.
posted by klangklangston at 1:34 PM on July 16, 2009


*ditched the tweens*
posted by ericb at 1:35 PM on July 16, 2009


NO FLASHING OF DICKS ALLOWED!
posted by ericb at 1:37 PM on July 16, 2009


as somebody in a wheelchair would have the right to demand, in all caps, PLZ DO NOT HAVE THE PARTY AT THE TOP OF A SHAG-RUG COVERED STAIRWAY.

Interesting thing is that the NY meetup is down one flight of steps with no elevator.
posted by smackfu at 1:37 PM on July 16, 2009


In general, people with medical conditions don't go around exaggerating their sensitivities because they like the drama; it's a pain they'd rather not have to deal with.

WORD.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 1:37 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I have a serious damage to a nerve in my spine and it causes grueling pain 24 hours a day. I have to do this risk analysis every time I leave the house for a social activity. I know that even if I explain why I can't do normal activities sit, stand and drink, for extended periods some people want to help by suggesting compromises that aren't tenable. So I feel for grapefruitmoon.

The thing is, sometimes there are no ways to make compromises. Like Cortex said this is probably one of those times.

If I were you-- and like you my needs sometimes require the cooperation of others-- and an event I cared as much about as you care about this party came along, this is what I'd do: arrive early, explain your needs before people start drinking, and on flash 2 or 3 bow out.

I try to think of situations like this as a quality of life issues. Your quality of life would be better by going for a little while to this event than not going at all.

It sucks that booze makes even well-intentioned people forgetful. But that's the way it is, all the more so in a large crowd of people, many of whom won't know you.

So go but plan to leave if the party becomes flash hell. It's easier said than done, but just factor flash hell into your plans and try not to blame others if you have to leave early. Accept it as part of your compromise with your own needs to be seizure free and to have a decent quality of life. For me having a chronic disease has meant I have to make decisions like that with myself all the time.

This may sound corny and I hope not patronizing, but I am happier when I try really hard not to get mad at people when they makes me cut short my plans.
posted by vincele at 1:39 PM on July 16, 2009 [7 favorites]


grapefruitmoon, I'm going to the meetup. I HATE flash photography with a great passion (and I don't have a medical excuse; I'm just a bitch). I'm happy to help enforce the no-flash guideline in whatever way I can. But you should come!
posted by olinerd at 1:40 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I notice that the user who was the impetus for this thread is now attending the New York meet-up. Lucky us. Hope no one in New York has any inconvenient medical conditions.
posted by amro at 1:41 PM on July 16, 2009


This whole thing seems kinda silly for a community weblog that's tried to be open over the years, but after that Target-NFB thread last year, it's not in the least bit surprising.

Look, grapefruitmoon may have ham-fisted her request, but all she's asking for is a reasonable accommodation. Don't point a flash at her or risk giving her a seizure. What is so hard about that? I totally respect what cortex is saying, but really, if this is such an issue, the last thing you need is a sea of flashes dropping someone on the floor in a grand mal and a bunch of people looking stupid as it happens.

I hate this MeFi conceit about demanding respect for yourself while giving none to others. Kindly remove your head from your ass and work something out.
posted by dw at 1:45 PM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


It sounds like you guys have the upstairs room at Boston Beer Works reserved.

Erm ... ignore my patio-stakeout suggestion.
posted by ericb at 1:52 PM on July 16, 2009


I think it's pretty unfair to call out a specific person for their "bad behavior" after they already agreed not to do it.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:58 PM on July 16, 2009 [7 favorites]


I am happier when I try really hard not to get mad at people when they makes me cut short my plans.

Oh, I'm with you there. I would never be personally pissed with anyone if I had to head home or whatever, and if I decide not to go, it won't be because "YOU GUYS SUCK!" or anything like that.

Now, if you start taunting me with "This should be interesting!" or stick a flash directly in my face ON PURPOSE after I've asked you not to, then I'll be pissed. Anything short of that, whatever man. Disappointed? Maybe. Actually holding interpersonal feelings of pissed-off-itude? Nah. It takes a lot to make me angry. Or very little, if what we're talking about is misused apostrophes.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:00 PM on July 16, 2009


I just looked at the original thread, and I can't believe that people can honestly claim to have a beef with the way she phrased her request.
posted by Mister_A at 2:01 PM on July 16, 2009


I think it's pretty unfair to call out a specific person for their "bad behavior" after they already agreed not to do it.

Well, the user decided that they would rather go to a different location because using flash was too important to them. That means that it's a moot point in terms of that specific person, yes, but it's not the same as "Oh, ok, I won't do it."

It's more along the lines of "I'm going to play with my ball SOMEWHERE ELSE instead of continually throwing it in your face" as opposed to "Oh? That was your face? Sorry, I'll stop."

So, yeah, moot point, but there was no agreement.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:03 PM on July 16, 2009


NO FLASHING OF DICKS ALLOWED!

This is why I'm going to Chicago's meetup and not Boston's.
posted by desjardins at 2:04 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


Who cares why he's going somewhere else? He is. You win. I think you are being very unfair considering that you got what you needed.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:07 PM on July 16, 2009 [7 favorites]


It's more along the lines of "I'm going to play with my ball SOMEWHERE ELSE instead of continually throwing it in your face" as opposed to "Oh? That was your face? Sorry, I'll stop."

Which reminds me - don't take your ball and go home. Go to the meetup and hit people in the face (if they use a flash while you're there).
posted by katillathehun at 2:08 PM on July 16, 2009


grapefruitmoon asked a question about how to address something like this, without linking to the original post or comment. How does that become unfair to the person who was neither named nor linked to?
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:08 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I don't think this was a call out. These sorts of negotiations are something gfm has to deal with all the time. I read this as more of an "Am I doing this right in the context of the metafilter community" than a callout on a specific user. I read it as the guy's asshat response in the Boston thread threw her for a loop and she's looking for some guidance on what's reasonable to ask for and what isn't in the context of this community* (and I have to say that I'm surprised by all the negative responses, but heartened by those in the Boston meetup who've stepped in to reassure. If it were in anyway a question for me, I'd pick a meeting with gfm and no flashes over the vise-versa in a heartbeat).


*appologies to gfm if I'm putting motives in her mouth, or whatever.
posted by carmen at 2:10 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


So, yeah, moot point, but there was no agreement.

Come on.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:11 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


In general, people with medical conditions don't go around exaggerating their sensitivities because they like the drama;

You don't speak for all of us!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:11 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


(OMG, the NFB v. Target thread is making me want to stab out my own eyeballs in horror, which would appropriately - or ironically - render me blind and thus both unable to use the website in question and the object of nonchalant denigration by several vocal users in the thread. But who cares if I'm blind right? I just won't shop at Target!)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:12 PM on July 16, 2009


If you can blind yourself before Saturday, you can go to the meet-up!
posted by Mister_A at 2:13 PM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


shut up Brandon and have a candy bar.
posted by desjardins at 2:14 PM on July 16, 2009


Who cares why he's going somewhere else? He is. You win.

Huh? This isn't about me vs. him. This is about "Ok, so what I thought was reasonable is considered to be a 'crisis' and I'm not sure why."

Which has since been answered, resoundingly.

And yes, carmen read my motives EXACTLY and that is PRECISELY what this is about.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:15 PM on July 16, 2009


Oh man! Mister_A is right! That will solve ALL of my problems! Sharp stick, here I come!
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:16 PM on July 16, 2009



grapefruitmoon join us in New Orleans. I'll round up all camaras and put them in a bag which I'll stand guard over with a poiny stick


No, no, I'll be at the Atlanta meetup.
posted by pointystick at 2:16 PM on July 16, 2009 [12 favorites]


Grapefruitmoon: But now, I think I just shot myself in the foot because, duh, jumping on my pogo stick with a loaded gun is an AWESOME idea.

Well, now that your foot is bandaged and you'll probably be in a wheelchair and thus have a "noticeable" disability maybe people will have less of a problem being accommodating ;)

I seriously sympathize with you. On bad days I can't stand to have music or tv type noises because it intrudes so pervasively in my brain that I can't think straight. This happens sometimes when hanging out with friends (thankfully rare because of medications), and I feel like an idiot asking people to shut off the TV or turn down the radio. It makes it really frustrating when people can't just make a simple, painless "sacrifice" which would allow me to function like a "normal" person. I mean, do you really need to have background noise so badly your willing to let that compromise my ability to hold a conversation? But I don't look like I have problems, I mean, my ears aren't bleeding or anything, so they can't understand why I would make a particular request and then they make it into a big deal.

Good Luck, I hope you have fun!
posted by silkygreenbelly at 2:17 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


Grapefruitmoon, you've posted in this thread 37 times in under 4 hours.
posted by The Straightener at 2:20 PM on July 16, 2009 [4 favorites]


Bravo sir, your math skills are beyond reproach
posted by nola at 2:21 PM on July 16, 2009 [3 favorites]


Grapefruitmoon, you've posted in this thread 37 times in under 4 hours.

And to make up for it, I'm now going home where I have no internet access and won't be back until tomorrow morning, leaving 12+ hrs. before I'll even be able to read this thread.


Starting... NOW.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 2:22 PM on July 16, 2009


Perfect. Fuck grapefruitmoon.
posted by gman at 2:23 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


I'm imaging the people at the NY meetup trying to resist the urge to tell jscott, "Would you PLEASE stop using the damn flash non-stop all night??!!! You've gone through three batteries for @#$% sake!!!"

Just kidding. Seriously. This is suppose to be a happy time. There's no need to bicker about who killed who.
posted by y6y6y6 at 2:26 PM on July 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


Fuck grapefruitmoon.

I'd don't think that's a good idea. She'll wreck you for other men.
posted by Eideteker at 2:31 PM on July 16, 2009


Er, women. (sorry, almost outed you accidentally!)
posted by Eideteker at 2:32 PM on July 16, 2009


What do you think the 'g' stands for?
posted by gman at 2:33 PM on July 16, 2009 [1 favorite]


Course seems well run and then some here. Further Boston meetup specifics should probably take place in the Boston thread, everybody else doesn't have to go home but they can't stay here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:33 PM on July 16, 2009


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