Doctors are weird amirite? May 5, 2010 4:39 PM Subscribe
This is a sort of odd question that was allowed to stand. Previously it was dentists. Corner stores. Dishwashers. Something seems a little off.
The original question was deleted as being totally off the wall and weird and I wrote to the OP and we reworded it. I agree that it's weird and not psyched about it, but I felt that it was a lot better than the original question. Maybe I was just viewing it in contrast and not taking a close enough look at it on its own but it seems answerable. People seem to be having hard time answering it without using words like "moronic" however which is bumming me out some.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:41 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:41 PM on May 5, 2010
I think Mac from Mac and Me has accessed a computer and is trying to learn about humanity.
posted by fire&wings at 4:42 PM on May 5, 2010 [12 favorites]
posted by fire&wings at 4:42 PM on May 5, 2010 [12 favorites]
This is the reworded version? Good god.
posted by Evangeline at 4:43 PM on May 5, 2010 [79 favorites]
posted by Evangeline at 4:43 PM on May 5, 2010 [79 favorites]
I can think of worse areas of the body to specialize in. Or worse jobs than doctor, for that matter.
posted by DU at 4:45 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by DU at 4:45 PM on May 5, 2010
At least the OP is serious about the best answer.
posted by gman at 4:46 PM on May 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by gman at 4:46 PM on May 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
Not that the wording is what's troublesome about this question, but I do wonder what the earlier phrasing was, that this was so much better.
posted by verbyournouns at 4:50 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by verbyournouns at 4:50 PM on May 5, 2010
I was about to ask about this one as well. There does seem to be a pattern, and the OP seems to try to get in a dig rather than make the question seem to be leading to a positive career choice. Seems chatty as well. This one also struck me as a bit more mean-spirited than the one about my profession (dentistry) which I answered.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:52 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:52 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
This dude is just the king of skating on that line between amiritefilter and "no, guys, I am seriously curious and want to know."
I'm getting kind of sick of it.
posted by The Esteemed Doctor Bunsen Honeydew at 4:53 PM on May 5, 2010 [13 favorites]
I'm getting kind of sick of it.
posted by The Esteemed Doctor Bunsen Honeydew at 4:53 PM on May 5, 2010 [13 favorites]
I don't think it's intentional. I've known people like this who are intelligent enough, but for whom many simple aspects of life are one great big mystery. This may come from some empathy defect (or even being on the Aspergers-spectrum), or might just be that they lack common sense.
posted by chrisamiller at 4:54 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by chrisamiller at 4:54 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
The one about dentistry is just a George Carlin joke. I think it was one of the little one-liners in Napalm and Silly Putty.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 4:54 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 4:54 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I didn't realize those questions were all from the same guy. I cringed when I read "more respectable profession." Youch.
posted by biochemist at 4:57 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by biochemist at 4:57 PM on May 5, 2010
This is the reworded version? Good god.
The original version was something along the lines of "Are gynecologists all perverts or what amirite?"
I mean, it's pretty clear that abbat is either shamelessly trolling askme or setting new standards for human cluelessness.
posted by Nothing... and like it at 4:59 PM on May 5, 2010 [6 favorites]
The original version was something along the lines of "Are gynecologists all perverts or what amirite?"
I mean, it's pretty clear that abbat is either shamelessly trolling askme or setting new standards for human cluelessness.
posted by Nothing... and like it at 4:59 PM on May 5, 2010 [6 favorites]
Looking at the questions he's previously asked, he seems determined to use his one question per week no matter what. Maybe he's just trying to get his $5 worth? Or less generously, maybe it's just a more subtle form of trolling.
posted by mosk at 4:59 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by mosk at 4:59 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I don't think it's intentional. I've known people like this who are intelligent enough, but for whom many simple aspects of life are one great big mystery. This may come from some empathy defect (or even being on the Aspergers-spectrum), or might just be that they lack common sense.
This reminds me of Karl Pilkington.
posted by a.steele at 5:02 PM on May 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
This reminds me of Karl Pilkington.
posted by a.steele at 5:02 PM on May 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
The line between "X makes no sense to me, why do people do that? (But really I just want to rant about it)" and "X makes no sense to me, why do people do that? (I sincerely want to know)" is a particularly fuzzy one. A lot of it is in the phrasing (which isn't great in the linked question, and was apparently worse before some editing, though I didn't see the original), but if people sincerely want to know, I think that should be allowed to stand. Though querents who sincerely want to know can help everyone else out by phrasing their questions more carefully than abbat did.
I think this one in particular was very borderline, but for clearer examples, on the "sincere" side see Why do people read fiction? (although even that needed some mod attention to delete the "you're just ranting and this is chatfilter" contingent); and on the "ranting" side, What happened to toast?
(On preview: I wrote the above before seeing the querent has asked several borderline-ranty questions before. I thought the "Previously it was dentists. Corner stores. Dishwashers." referred just to that type of question in general, not questions specifically from one user. I'm much less inclined to defend the question at hand after I realized that.)
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:03 PM on May 5, 2010
I think this one in particular was very borderline, but for clearer examples, on the "sincere" side see Why do people read fiction? (although even that needed some mod attention to delete the "you're just ranting and this is chatfilter" contingent); and on the "ranting" side, What happened to toast?
(On preview: I wrote the above before seeing the querent has asked several borderline-ranty questions before. I thought the "Previously it was dentists. Corner stores. Dishwashers." referred just to that type of question in general, not questions specifically from one user. I'm much less inclined to defend the question at hand after I realized that.)
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 5:03 PM on May 5, 2010
In the (maybe mistaken) spirit of devil's advocacy and doubt-benefittedness, I'll suggest that the same poster's similarly naïve question about defense attorneys ended up having some very good, interesting responses very much in spite of the way he asked it.
I also don't really like how the poster asks his questions, though.
posted by The Potate at 5:10 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
I also don't really like how the poster asks his questions, though.
posted by The Potate at 5:10 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
I also looked at the posting history, it was just an odd question. My opinion (based on too little information and scant intelligence) is that the OP is either doing some subtle trolling of the site, or exists somewhere on the Autism spectrum and doesn't understand why these questions will be looked at as odd.
A couple of his previous posts indicate he's someone with a job, and someone with some knowledge in the tech area...which rules out the "very young" assumption a couple of people made, they also indicate that he's a bit judgemental and rigid.
posted by HuronBob at 5:11 PM on May 5, 2010
A couple of his previous posts indicate he's someone with a job, and someone with some knowledge in the tech area...which rules out the "very young" assumption a couple of people made, they also indicate that he's a bit judgemental and rigid.
posted by HuronBob at 5:11 PM on May 5, 2010
My impression is that the guy is a mix of tonedeaf and maybe just not catching on so well to the feel of askme (whether intentionally or otherwise), but at this point the question history is getting to be kind of problematic as a whole above and beyond the borderline nature of the individual questions, yeah. Without assuming he's intentionally starting trouble, I think it's clear at this point that we need to talk to him about finding a way to intentionally avoid doing so.
The line between "X makes no sense to me, why do people do that? (But really I just want to rant about it)" and "X makes no sense to me, why do people do that? (I sincerely want to know)" is a particularly fuzzy one.
Yep, and it's a challenge since we don't want to ruin people's weeks if we can help it and so will give a certain amount of benefit of the doubt to iffy-but-not-slamdunk-delete questions if we have the time and the patience that day to try and babysit the question into the land of utility. Some days not so much.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:13 PM on May 5, 2010
The line between "X makes no sense to me, why do people do that? (But really I just want to rant about it)" and "X makes no sense to me, why do people do that? (I sincerely want to know)" is a particularly fuzzy one.
Yep, and it's a challenge since we don't want to ruin people's weeks if we can help it and so will give a certain amount of benefit of the doubt to iffy-but-not-slamdunk-delete questions if we have the time and the patience that day to try and babysit the question into the land of utility. Some days not so much.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:13 PM on May 5, 2010
or exists somewhere on the Autism spectrum and doesn't understand why these questions will be looked at as odd.
As someone who swapped several emails with him today, this was the vibe I got as well. He felt that his question was direct and was really surprised [it seemed to me, who has an okay bullshit detector] that it was going badly and was eager to rewrite it quickly. I suppose I could have sent it back for one more pass, but as I said, I just wanted to get the "pervert" version off the front page.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:14 PM on May 5, 2010
As someone who swapped several emails with him today, this was the vibe I got as well. He felt that his question was direct and was really surprised [it seemed to me, who has an okay bullshit detector] that it was going badly and was eager to rewrite it quickly. I suppose I could have sent it back for one more pass, but as I said, I just wanted to get the "pervert" version off the front page.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:14 PM on May 5, 2010
Can we please not internet diagnose people with Autism or Asperger's every time they demonstrate a lack of consideration of others and/or social grace?
posted by proj at 5:14 PM on May 5, 2010 [72 favorites]
posted by proj at 5:14 PM on May 5, 2010 [72 favorites]
Sorry about that proj, I know enough AS types that I forget that to other people it can sound sort of not-cool.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:16 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:16 PM on May 5, 2010
I didn't see him as demonstrating a "lack of consideration" or "social grace".... sorry if you read it that way... I said I didn't think he understood why the questions would be viewed as odd.
posted by HuronBob at 5:18 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by HuronBob at 5:18 PM on May 5, 2010
Sorry, HuronBob, that wasn't totally aimed at you, it was more of a pet issue of mine. Whenever people demonstrate that they're a bit tonedeaf (I know, I know) to others, it seems like internet folk quickly jump to diagnosing Asperger's.
posted by proj at 5:21 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by proj at 5:21 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
Can we please not internet diagnose people with Autism or Asperger's every time they demonstrate a lack of consideration of others and/or social grace?
This times a thousand.
posted by fixedgear at 5:23 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
This times a thousand.
posted by fixedgear at 5:23 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
The question seemed odd to me as well, and then I checked out the OP's history. "Why do rich people kill themselves?" stood out to me not only as bizarre but more to the point: WTF?
I would like to hear an explanation from the OP - is it sheer curiosity/ability to use AskMe? I don't want to make any assumptions, but I feel pretty confident saying that this was yet another weird question in a series of weird questions.
We're an understanding lot here - I mean no malice towards the OP but gosh, some of these questions just make me weirdly uncomfortable - more so than any anon post, because those at least seem to have an underlying purpose, no matter how gruesomely detailed they can be.
posted by deacon_blues at 5:24 PM on May 5, 2010
I would like to hear an explanation from the OP - is it sheer curiosity/ability to use AskMe? I don't want to make any assumptions, but I feel pretty confident saying that this was yet another weird question in a series of weird questions.
We're an understanding lot here - I mean no malice towards the OP but gosh, some of these questions just make me weirdly uncomfortable - more so than any anon post, because those at least seem to have an underlying purpose, no matter how gruesomely detailed they can be.
posted by deacon_blues at 5:24 PM on May 5, 2010
I just had a total brainfart when I saw the "gynos" in the question's URL and read it as "ginos", which would also be a rather WTF-y question.
posted by CKmtl at 5:45 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by CKmtl at 5:45 PM on May 5, 2010
It would be good to have a place where a person could ask stupid questions and learn something and not made out to be an idiot, fool or schmuck.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:47 PM on May 5, 2010 [12 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:47 PM on May 5, 2010 [12 favorites]
At least he didn't ask why veterinarians want to spend all day with their fingers up sheep.
I didn't want to answer his question because it made me feel like I would be unwillingly participating in some kind of paraphilic getting-off situation. Like he was MAKING people answer, and using the response for something off-label. Ick.
posted by Sallyfur at 5:56 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I didn't want to answer his question because it made me feel like I would be unwillingly participating in some kind of paraphilic getting-off situation. Like he was MAKING people answer, and using the response for something off-label. Ick.
posted by Sallyfur at 5:56 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
It would be good to have a place where a person could ask stupid questions and learn something and not made out to be an idiot, fool or schmuck.
It's called Yahoo answers.
posted by fixedgear at 5:58 PM on May 5, 2010 [22 favorites]
It's called Yahoo answers.
posted by fixedgear at 5:58 PM on May 5, 2010 [22 favorites]
It would be good to have a place where a person could ask stupid questions and learn something and not made out to be an idiot, fool or schmuck.
I generally agree with you, Brandon. There have been too many MetaTalk threads where someone is complaining that someone asked something stupid in Ask MetaFilter. The asker could have been easily been educated in the original thread, but some people feel the need to point out how stupid and ignorant and wrong the asker is instead of educating.
In this case, this guy is displaying the same sort of inability in asking a variation on the same question multiple times, and that is part of what is getting people's hackles up (although the sex-negative tones of the ignorance this particular time makes it even worse). This means that we are failing to get the message across in the green. Although a message from the mods would probably be more compassionate than a public shaming.
posted by grouse at 6:02 PM on May 5, 2010
I generally agree with you, Brandon. There have been too many MetaTalk threads where someone is complaining that someone asked something stupid in Ask MetaFilter. The asker could have been easily been educated in the original thread, but some people feel the need to point out how stupid and ignorant and wrong the asker is instead of educating.
In this case, this guy is displaying the same sort of inability in asking a variation on the same question multiple times, and that is part of what is getting people's hackles up (although the sex-negative tones of the ignorance this particular time makes it even worse). This means that we are failing to get the message across in the green. Although a message from the mods would probably be more compassionate than a public shaming.
posted by grouse at 6:02 PM on May 5, 2010
I wondered if it had something to do with last week's episode of Bones where Dr Saroyan (the pathologist) goes on date with a gynaecologist and they talk about how they both lie about their job because people are bothered by them. But I'm probably just reading too much of my own life into things (I watched Bones last night).
posted by shelleycat at 6:06 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by shelleycat at 6:06 PM on May 5, 2010
It's called Yahoo answers.
It's called having some compassion and not treating this incidents as a pile on to show how enlightened and educated you (in the general sense) are. All of us have blind spots or gaps in our knowledge and nobody needs to be treated like a retarded idiot for asking "stupid" questions.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:07 PM on May 5, 2010 [21 favorites]
It's called having some compassion and not treating this incidents as a pile on to show how enlightened and educated you (in the general sense) are. All of us have blind spots or gaps in our knowledge and nobody needs to be treated like a retarded idiot for asking "stupid" questions.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:07 PM on May 5, 2010 [21 favorites]
Why did he favorite his own comment?
posted by amro at 6:11 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by amro at 6:11 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
I'm kind of glad those questions were asked, because then you get great answers like:
When the Auckland domestic airport terminal was remodelled they purposefully put in lower ceilings in the areas they don't want people to linger.
Honestly, I think this question says more about your own psychology and relationship to money than anything else.
If we could all be so wrong about that case, then we could be that wrong about any case, and that's why we need attorneys like Bill Kunstler, who will defend the most unpopular defendants to the best of their ability.
Anyway, his son is in dental school ... the dental school the grandfather helped found.
posted by infinitefloatingbrains at 6:11 PM on May 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
When the Auckland domestic airport terminal was remodelled they purposefully put in lower ceilings in the areas they don't want people to linger.
Honestly, I think this question says more about your own psychology and relationship to money than anything else.
If we could all be so wrong about that case, then we could be that wrong about any case, and that's why we need attorneys like Bill Kunstler, who will defend the most unpopular defendants to the best of their ability.
Anyway, his son is in dental school ... the dental school the grandfather helped found.
posted by infinitefloatingbrains at 6:11 PM on May 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
Why did he favorite his own comment?
In the earlier version of the question there were a few early comments basically calling him out as an idiot or a troll and he was, I think, trying to show that he was serious. I deleted the "you are an idiot" comments but felt it might be good to leave his.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:16 PM on May 5, 2010
In the earlier version of the question there were a few early comments basically calling him out as an idiot or a troll and he was, I think, trying to show that he was serious. I deleted the "you are an idiot" comments but felt it might be good to leave his.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:16 PM on May 5, 2010
amro, the crazier part is of all his questions, that's the ONLY best answer marked...
posted by inigo2 at 6:18 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by inigo2 at 6:18 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
All of us have blind spots or gaps in our knowledge and nobody needs to be treated like a retarded idiot for asking "stupid" questions.
Agreed, but for heaven's sake, this last question is quite offensive. When you state that gynecology is not a respectable branch of medicine for a doctor to pursue, well, that's offensive to a woman. We're not dirty or shameful just because we have vaginas.
I'm not saying that's what you were getting at, or even what the OP was getting at. I'm just trying to explain why many of us (or perhaps just me) didn't take that question as simply a gap in someone's knowledge.
posted by cooker girl at 6:26 PM on May 5, 2010 [21 favorites]
Agreed, but for heaven's sake, this last question is quite offensive. When you state that gynecology is not a respectable branch of medicine for a doctor to pursue, well, that's offensive to a woman. We're not dirty or shameful just because we have vaginas.
I'm not saying that's what you were getting at, or even what the OP was getting at. I'm just trying to explain why many of us (or perhaps just me) didn't take that question as simply a gap in someone's knowledge.
posted by cooker girl at 6:26 PM on May 5, 2010 [21 favorites]
When you state that gynecology is not a respectable branch of medicine for a doctor to pursue, well, that's offensive to a woman.
No, that's offensive to a human being, not just a woman.
I'm not saying the OP is asking great questions here, just that people have a bit more compassion for those who are so obviously clueless. The dude clearly has issues. Saying the equivalent of "WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR ISSUE, YOU FUCKING IDIOT" probably isn't going to help matters much.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:35 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
No, that's offensive to a human being, not just a woman.
I'm not saying the OP is asking great questions here, just that people have a bit more compassion for those who are so obviously clueless. The dude clearly has issues. Saying the equivalent of "WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR ISSUE, YOU FUCKING IDIOT" probably isn't going to help matters much.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:35 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I don't think it's a stupid question in theory. But was it the implication that womens' health (or "vaginas" in particular) is not as respectable as other kinds of medicine that got a lot of people. What makes you think that one part of my body is less respectable than another? Speculating that he has some kind of disorder or is not a native English speaker or maybe he's just 12 is the charitable view, I think. At least there's a reason.
posted by amethysts at 6:37 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by amethysts at 6:37 PM on May 5, 2010
Why did he favorite his own comment?
I'm guessing it's because best answers are highlighted and he wanted to emphasis in the midst of now deleted comments calling him a idiot that yes, he is completely serious in asking the question.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:37 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing it's because best answers are highlighted and he wanted to emphasis in the midst of now deleted comments calling him a idiot that yes, he is completely serious in asking the question.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:37 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
amro, the crazier part is of all his questions, that's the ONLY best answer marked...
Not true.
posted by alligatorman at 6:40 PM on May 5, 2010
Not true.
posted by alligatorman at 6:40 PM on May 5, 2010
>The line between "X makes no sense to me, why do people do that? (But really I just want to rant about it)" and "X makes no sense to me, why do people do that? (I sincerely want to know)" is a particularly fuzzy one.
Yep, and it's a challenge since we don't want to ruin people's weeks if we can help it and so will give a certain amount of benefit of the doubt to iffy-but-not-slamdunk-delete questions if we have the time and the patience that day to try and babysit the question into the land of utility. Some days not so much.
That line may be fuzzy, but the line between "here is a solvable problem. Can you help me solve it?" and "Let's chit-chat or debate or shoot the shit or whatever, bros" stands out in pretty stark relief.
Deleting an FPP because it's a touch subject and then letting an AskMe post that clearly violates the community standards of chatfilter? Is this a weird day or what? Not a direction I'd have expected or endorsed.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:42 PM on May 5, 2010 [4 favorites]
Yep, and it's a challenge since we don't want to ruin people's weeks if we can help it and so will give a certain amount of benefit of the doubt to iffy-but-not-slamdunk-delete questions if we have the time and the patience that day to try and babysit the question into the land of utility. Some days not so much.
That line may be fuzzy, but the line between "here is a solvable problem. Can you help me solve it?" and "Let's chit-chat or debate or shoot the shit or whatever, bros" stands out in pretty stark relief.
Deleting an FPP because it's a touch subject and then letting an AskMe post that clearly violates the community standards of chatfilter? Is this a weird day or what? Not a direction I'd have expected or endorsed.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:42 PM on May 5, 2010 [4 favorites]
What makes you think that one part of my body is less respectable than another?
Immaturity.
posted by amro at 6:42 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
Immaturity.
posted by amro at 6:42 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
Deleting an FPP because it's a touch subject and then letting an AskMe post that clearly violates the community standards of chatfilter? Is this a weird day or what? Not a direction I'd have expected or endorsed.
Seriously, can you please not carry an argument from one thread into another like this?
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:52 PM on May 5, 2010
Seriously, can you please not carry an argument from one thread into another like this?
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:52 PM on May 5, 2010
Ok, my bad.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:52 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:52 PM on May 5, 2010
Hey Abbat!
posted by klangklangston at 6:52 PM on May 5, 2010 [11 favorites]
posted by klangklangston at 6:52 PM on May 5, 2010 [11 favorites]
If that was the rewording I'd hate to see what the original read like. I was really offended. If you were going to have him reword the thing, you couldn't ask him to remove the part of the question that said women's bodies were somehow not respectable? I mean, what the hell.
posted by citron at 6:57 PM on May 5, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by citron at 6:57 PM on May 5, 2010 [7 favorites]
I'm fine if people want to ask stupid questions all the live long day, but the misogyny ought to be unwelcome here.
posted by citron at 7:00 PM on May 5, 2010 [18 favorites]
posted by citron at 7:00 PM on May 5, 2010 [18 favorites]
The OP has an odd way of asking questions that seems to cross into chatfilter territory. A lot of them are these sort of vague "how does the world work?" types of questions. Perhaps he'd be interested in the Imponderables series...
While we're dumping on the OP, most of his 26 answers really seem to be comments on his own 16 questions (since January, wow) and a lot of the answers on other questions are pretty short and snippy. I'm not sure he really understands the give/take of the green in general.
posted by zachlipton at 7:01 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
While we're dumping on the OP, most of his 26 answers really seem to be comments on his own 16 questions (since January, wow) and a lot of the answers on other questions are pretty short and snippy. I'm not sure he really understands the give/take of the green in general.
posted by zachlipton at 7:01 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
But still: Am I wrong in thinking this post clearly violates community standards of chatfilter?
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:02 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:02 PM on May 5, 2010
Judging by his favorite's I'd say he's just a thinker/"ohhh, how does this work?" type person. I don't think the OP is a jerkface or anything, just that he may not be too familiar with what is/isn't considered offensive for whatever reason.
posted by biochemist at 7:06 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by biochemist at 7:06 PM on May 5, 2010
But still: Am I wrong in thinking this post clearly violates community standards of chatfilter?
Yes, IMO. He wants to know why people would do X. As you can see, there are plenty of people who can give reasons for wanting to do X.
While we're dumping on the OP...
There's no need to continue dumping on him.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:07 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yes, IMO. He wants to know why people would do X. As you can see, there are plenty of people who can give reasons for wanting to do X.
While we're dumping on the OP...
There's no need to continue dumping on him.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:07 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
Not true.
Doh. Must've missed those when I flipped through. Still pretty weak, though.
posted by inigo2 at 7:12 PM on May 5, 2010
Doh. Must've missed those when I flipped through. Still pretty weak, though.
posted by inigo2 at 7:12 PM on May 5, 2010
klangklangston, I see what you did there. It took me a moment, but I'm old enough that I got it and laughed out loud.
posted by LOLAttorney2009 at 7:12 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by LOLAttorney2009 at 7:12 PM on May 5, 2010
If I really thought the OP intended any misogyny I'd be all over joining the outrage party, but I am just not feeling it. Based on this and his posting history, he just seems a little tone deaf and to have a little difficulty expressing himself in writing. I try to save being offended for things that actually are worth getting all up in arms over, not some kid who's just trying to understand what motivates people to do certain things.
As to whether it's chatfilter or a good question ... well, I don't know. What is and isn't chatfilter has often seemed pretty damn arbitrary to me. He's asking a question which has actual answers, rather than just asking people to dream up hypothetical answers.
posted by tastybrains at 7:16 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
As to whether it's chatfilter or a good question ... well, I don't know. What is and isn't chatfilter has often seemed pretty damn arbitrary to me. He's asking a question which has actual answers, rather than just asking people to dream up hypothetical answers.
posted by tastybrains at 7:16 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
you couldn't ask him to remove the part of the question that said women's bodies were somehow not respectable?
He did not say that. I understand that it's one interpretation, but it is not mine. Here's the quote
Why don't they go into a more respectable branch of their profession
There might be many reasons people might consider OB/GYN work not-respectable that aren't just misogyny-related. Maybe the pay is worse? Maybe the uniforms are terrible. Maybe you look goofy holding a speculum. I have no idea. Again, I don't like it either and I've been fine with the answers that are questioning the asker's assumptions, but I do not think this is a misogynistic question any more than children asking if black people sunburn are being racist.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:16 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
He did not say that. I understand that it's one interpretation, but it is not mine. Here's the quote
Why don't they go into a more respectable branch of their profession
There might be many reasons people might consider OB/GYN work not-respectable that aren't just misogyny-related. Maybe the pay is worse? Maybe the uniforms are terrible. Maybe you look goofy holding a speculum. I have no idea. Again, I don't like it either and I've been fine with the answers that are questioning the asker's assumptions, but I do not think this is a misogynistic question any more than children asking if black people sunburn are being racist.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:16 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
I suspect he's just planning to audition for the eventually-vacant Andy Rooney gig: "D'ya ever wonder . . . what makes a guy want to grope hoo-hoos for a living?"
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:21 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:21 PM on May 5, 2010
I really disagree with you, jessamyn. The question is predicated on the assumption that women's doctors (that is, doctors who specialize in the treatment of women) are not "respectable" and that they ought to be "embarrassed." It is, IMHO, a stretch to speculate that he thinks this because of the pay or some other related incidental when the OP is clear about his issue with "looking at vaginas all day."
posted by LittleMissCranky at 7:24 PM on May 5, 2010 [33 favorites]
posted by LittleMissCranky at 7:24 PM on May 5, 2010 [33 favorites]
There's no need to continue dumping on him.
Chances are, though, that the mods will be dealing with "hey, what's with undertakers?" and variations on the theme for subsequent weeks. I don't think it's active trolling, but it has similar effects, because it's basically calling a tune and asking the community to dance.
posted by holgate at 7:27 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
Chances are, though, that the mods will be dealing with "hey, what's with undertakers?" and variations on the theme for subsequent weeks. I don't think it's active trolling, but it has similar effects, because it's basically calling a tune and asking the community to dance.
posted by holgate at 7:27 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yeah I agree that's likely what he's getting at, but I really view it as if he's a 13 year old, not a full-blown adult with mature views on the world who is also a misogynist. Or he's not neurotypical. It was pretty clear from the dentist thread that there is a lot he doesn't understand about why people want to interact with other people's bodies generally not just female bodies.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:28 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:28 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
There's an assumption in this question that vaginas are bad and sexual and embarrassing. [quoted from a comment in the thread.]
I don't think this is definitely true. IF it turned out the OP was misogynistic in this way, I wouldn't be surprised, but you have to read into his question to come up with that interpretation.
I would never have the OP's dentist question, because I could have answered it myself given a little thought, but I'll fess up and admit that it has occurred to me. But just because I've wondered why anyone would become a dentist, it doesn't follow that I think teeth are shameful.
Vaginas turn a lot of men on. When I was about 12, I wondered if the reason men became gynecologists was so that they could get a free pass to look at vaginas. I'm a little surprised to see a grownup thinking that, but at least I can understand the thought process.
Even if someone asks "why wouldn't someone choose a more respectable branch of medicine?" that doesn't NECESSARILY mean he finds vaginas shameful. It means he thinks that people, in general, think gynecology is shameful. He's wondering why someone would choose to go into a profession that others think is embarrassing. That says nothing about whether or not that profession has any actual worth.
There was a time when it wasn't respectful to be an actress. I have GREAT respect for actors, but I can still reasonably ask why people, back then, would have chosen to appear on stage. I don't mean "Why would someone demean himself by doing something so base?" I mean "Why would someone demean himself by doing something THOUGHT to be so base?"
I know I'm being hyper literal. I am not convinced the OP is free of prejudice, and I don't blame people for being offended. But whether or not you can do it emotionally, there are logical reasons to give him the benefit of the doubt.
posted by grumblebee at 7:34 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
I don't think this is definitely true. IF it turned out the OP was misogynistic in this way, I wouldn't be surprised, but you have to read into his question to come up with that interpretation.
I would never have the OP's dentist question, because I could have answered it myself given a little thought, but I'll fess up and admit that it has occurred to me. But just because I've wondered why anyone would become a dentist, it doesn't follow that I think teeth are shameful.
Vaginas turn a lot of men on. When I was about 12, I wondered if the reason men became gynecologists was so that they could get a free pass to look at vaginas. I'm a little surprised to see a grownup thinking that, but at least I can understand the thought process.
Even if someone asks "why wouldn't someone choose a more respectable branch of medicine?" that doesn't NECESSARILY mean he finds vaginas shameful. It means he thinks that people, in general, think gynecology is shameful. He's wondering why someone would choose to go into a profession that others think is embarrassing. That says nothing about whether or not that profession has any actual worth.
There was a time when it wasn't respectful to be an actress. I have GREAT respect for actors, but I can still reasonably ask why people, back then, would have chosen to appear on stage. I don't mean "Why would someone demean himself by doing something so base?" I mean "Why would someone demean himself by doing something THOUGHT to be so base?"
I know I'm being hyper literal. I am not convinced the OP is free of prejudice, and I don't blame people for being offended. But whether or not you can do it emotionally, there are logical reasons to give him the benefit of the doubt.
posted by grumblebee at 7:34 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
>I really view it as if he's a 13 year old, not a full-blown adult with mature views on the world who is also a misogynist. Or he's not neurotypical.
Whoa. Is there some back story I'm missing? Because that's a pretty weird thing to assume about a person on the Internet you don't know.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:35 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
Whoa. Is there some back story I'm missing? Because that's a pretty weird thing to assume about a person on the Internet you don't know.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 7:35 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I really view it as if he's a 13 year old
When I was about 12, I wondered if the reason men became gynecologists was so that they could get a free pass to look at vaginas.
The "do they brag about it?" part of the question definitely suggests a non-adult perspective on women, for whatever reason.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:42 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
When I was about 12, I wondered if the reason men became gynecologists was so that they could get a free pass to look at vaginas.
The "do they brag about it?" part of the question definitely suggests a non-adult perspective on women, for whatever reason.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:42 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
If that was the rewording I'd hate to see what the original read like.
This. If a 13-year-old or a mentally challenged person came up to me in person and asked me that question, I would tell them that that is an offensive question, because it is. Honestly, I have to read deeply into the phrasing as it stands to find anything approaching a question asked in good faith.
posted by oinopaponton at 7:44 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
This. If a 13-year-old or a mentally challenged person came up to me in person and asked me that question, I would tell them that that is an offensive question, because it is. Honestly, I have to read deeply into the phrasing as it stands to find anything approaching a question asked in good faith.
posted by oinopaponton at 7:44 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is like the real like equivalent of "Fuckin' magnets! how do they work? [more inside]" Sure, I believe it's sincere and in good faith but good lord we don't need to bend over backwards to please him. His questions read as though they were written in 30 seconds, and he never posts in his own thread to continue the discussion or post a quick "hey thanks!" Also it makes me cry because I spent like an hour writing this stupid post. Gonna' go back to studying now, thanks.
posted by yaymukund at 8:01 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by yaymukund at 8:01 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I think the best solution here is to have one of the mods chat with the OP about the wording of his questions, as he does seem willing to edit himself... no real need to speculate as to whether or not he is inherently misogynistic and/or has poor social skills.
posted by biochemist at 8:09 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by biochemist at 8:09 PM on May 5, 2010
Whoa. Is there some back story I'm missing?
I've been swapping email with him all evening and have seen his past questions and answers, nothing else. I don't mean that he's literally 13 but it's obvious to me that he's also totally not clear how offensive his question originally sounded or how weird it currently sounds.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:10 PM on May 5, 2010
I've been swapping email with him all evening and have seen his past questions and answers, nothing else. I don't mean that he's literally 13 but it's obvious to me that he's also totally not clear how offensive his question originally sounded or how weird it currently sounds.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:10 PM on May 5, 2010
If you read one Asker's questions this summer, make it:
Abbat -The Return of Sixcolors!
posted by P.o.B. at 8:25 PM on May 5, 2010 [9 favorites]
Abbat -The Return of Sixcolors!
posted by P.o.B. at 8:25 PM on May 5, 2010 [9 favorites]
I had a friend in grade school whose Dad was a testicle surgeon. He used to leave his slides on this table in the basement near where we would play with GI Joes sometimes. I can tell you that put me off pursuing employment in any medical profession ever under any circumstances. The horror, the horror....
posted by Kirk Grim at 8:28 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by Kirk Grim at 8:28 PM on May 5, 2010
This is like the real like equivalent of "Fuckin' magnets! how do they work?
Some people don't understand context and framework for "truth"
posted by P.o.B. at 8:32 PM on May 5, 2010 [4 favorites]
Some people don't understand context and framework for "truth"
posted by P.o.B. at 8:32 PM on May 5, 2010 [4 favorites]
If that question results in a teenage boy learning a few things about medicine and women's bodies and the kinds of conversations adults have, then it's no bad thing. No need for a pile-on here, I think.
posted by modernnomad at 8:40 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by modernnomad at 8:40 PM on May 5, 2010
I am interested to know at least a couple other mefites have OBGYN parents too - maybe we need a club we could call "Boy, Howdy! Guess What WE talk about at holiday dinners!"
And while the tone was not what I would have written, I have been asked a number of times (and Papa Stick has too) "Why in the world would you do THAT for a living?!" so it's not like the OP is alone in wondering.
posted by pointystick at 8:50 PM on May 5, 2010
And while the tone was not what I would have written, I have been asked a number of times (and Papa Stick has too) "Why in the world would you do THAT for a living?!" so it's not like the OP is alone in wondering.
posted by pointystick at 8:50 PM on May 5, 2010
Well, that do defense attorneys have no conscience question hit pretty close to home and I find it highly moronic and incredibly offense to boot. It was only saved by the great answers, even though I seriously doubt this person learned anything from them.
posted by dead cousin ted at 9:06 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by dead cousin ted at 9:06 PM on May 5, 2010
The problem I have with most of them is they could be answered by literally ten seconds worth of Google, or ten seconds stopping and thinking. I feel like leaving them up encourages a more drive-by attitude to both questions and answers that I don't think is a real positive to askme. This said, I'm not a mod, so it's really not much of my business I suppose.
posted by smoke at 9:07 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by smoke at 9:07 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
It really bothers me when people assume that "everyone knows" or "everyone thinks" or that everyone has patient, intelligent parents or teachers or friends to explain what "everyone" knows or thinks.
There's a first time to have this stuff explained. For some people, it's now. It's you doing the explaining.
It's you setting the example of how it will be explained to the next person in the chain.
posted by amtho at 9:10 PM on May 5, 2010 [16 favorites]
There's a first time to have this stuff explained. For some people, it's now. It's you doing the explaining.
It's you setting the example of how it will be explained to the next person in the chain.
posted by amtho at 9:10 PM on May 5, 2010 [16 favorites]
That includes the assumption that everyone knows that answers of a particular kind are findable by searching, or by what keywords. Besides, how would a searching person, especially a naive one, know what information to trust? Would you want this particular person forming his opinions based on a random MAD Magazine article or accounts of lawsuits?
posted by amtho at 9:12 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by amtho at 9:12 PM on May 5, 2010
Honestly, the OP's question made me think, "Well, I wanna know why people choose to have a job where they do bikini waxes, Brazilian waxes and anal bleaching on people! How do they explain that? How are they not embarrassed? Why didn't they get a better job?" But I didn't want to put ideas in his head about questions for next week. (Btw, I did see something somewhere about what it's like to have that job, and the workers simply get used to seeing various genitalia and don't even blink after awhile. So don't worry, no one has to answer these questions for me!)
posted by foxjacket at 9:34 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by foxjacket at 9:34 PM on May 5, 2010
Wow. He has literally asked a question every single week, starting 7 days after he joined. Like, almost always exactly 7 days apart. At first I was going to say "almost every week" but then I noticed the only bigger gap was 15 days and sure enough, there was a deleted post right there in the middle.
I wonder if he has some sort of weekly alarm set and when it goes off he just decides to ask whatever question first pops into his head so he can start counting down to his next question as soon as possible...
(Seriously. There are even a few stretches where he asks his next question within minutes of when he's first able to.)
posted by EmilyClimbs at 9:38 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
I wonder if he has some sort of weekly alarm set and when it goes off he just decides to ask whatever question first pops into his head so he can start counting down to his next question as soon as possible...
(Seriously. There are even a few stretches where he asks his next question within minutes of when he's first able to.)
posted by EmilyClimbs at 9:38 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
My reaction was that the asker is socially tone deaf at best, probably immature, and quite likely not neurotypical.
That said, under the awkward phrasing and offensive language is a serious question that deserves a serious answer.
I mean, at one point I had reason to see a urologist. Every time I had an appointment with him, there would be some moment where he had both hands on my junk and his face a few inches away for a better look, or a couple of fingers up my ass, and I'd wonder "what on earth would make a person choose this as a career?" He was a great doctor, and I'm eternally grateful that he picked that specialty because he made my life so much better. But I was always, at every second of our interactions, aware that he'd chosen a profession that required him to violate some strong cultural norms, like "a straight dude usually shouldn't grab another guy's willy and then bend him over."
Just because we call it "medical" and agree that it's important and life-changing and wonderful, doesn't get away from that it's legitimate to wonder how it feels, and how it is treated socially, to have a job that requires you to be nose-to-genitals all day long.
posted by Forktine at 9:45 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
That said, under the awkward phrasing and offensive language is a serious question that deserves a serious answer.
I mean, at one point I had reason to see a urologist. Every time I had an appointment with him, there would be some moment where he had both hands on my junk and his face a few inches away for a better look, or a couple of fingers up my ass, and I'd wonder "what on earth would make a person choose this as a career?" He was a great doctor, and I'm eternally grateful that he picked that specialty because he made my life so much better. But I was always, at every second of our interactions, aware that he'd chosen a profession that required him to violate some strong cultural norms, like "a straight dude usually shouldn't grab another guy's willy and then bend him over."
Just because we call it "medical" and agree that it's important and life-changing and wonderful, doesn't get away from that it's legitimate to wonder how it feels, and how it is treated socially, to have a job that requires you to be nose-to-genitals all day long.
posted by Forktine at 9:45 PM on May 5, 2010 [3 favorites]
(Seriously. There are even a few stretches where he asks his next question within minutes of when he's first able to.)
I just looked at this, and it's really blowing my mind. Of the 17 questions he's asked, 13 were asked on the first day that he was allowed to. For 9 of those, the times between being allowed to ask and asking have been: 2 mins, 14 mins, 3 mins, 16 mins, 31 mins, 2 mins, 5 mins, 2 mins, 1 min.
I'm impressed.
posted by alligatorman at 10:15 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I just looked at this, and it's really blowing my mind. Of the 17 questions he's asked, 13 were asked on the first day that he was allowed to. For 9 of those, the times between being allowed to ask and asking have been: 2 mins, 14 mins, 3 mins, 16 mins, 31 mins, 2 mins, 5 mins, 2 mins, 1 min.
I'm impressed.
posted by alligatorman at 10:15 PM on May 5, 2010 [2 favorites]
I've thought for a while that this person might be someone from our past.
posted by sanko at 10:24 PM on May 5, 2010
posted by sanko at 10:24 PM on May 5, 2010
amtho: "That includes the assumption that everyone knows that answers of a particular kind are findable by searching, or by what keywords. Besides, how would a searching person, especially a naive one, know what information to trust? Would you want this particular person forming his opinions based on a random MAD Magazine article or accounts of lawsuits"
It's explicitly a part of the AskMe guidelines. Look, this isn't about stamping out intellectual curiosity but about having standards as a community. After ten questions we expect folks to have read and understood the guidelines, right? He doesn't deserve a pile-on but someone needs to clue him in.
posted by yaymukund at 10:35 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's explicitly a part of the AskMe guidelines. Look, this isn't about stamping out intellectual curiosity but about having standards as a community. After ten questions we expect folks to have read and understood the guidelines, right? He doesn't deserve a pile-on but someone needs to clue him in.
posted by yaymukund at 10:35 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
I see what you did there
(but it took me way too long. I need coffee.)
posted by lwb at 10:38 PM on May 5, 2010
(but it took me way too long. I need coffee.)
posted by lwb at 10:38 PM on May 5, 2010
Please be assured that when someone is being kind of weird on the site, and especially in a way that seems however superficially reminiscent of past weird behavior by someone else, we take a really, really thorough look into the subject. Which means that 99 times out of 100, if they're still around for you to speculate about re: returning under a username, it's a non-starter by definition because we noticed it too and made sure that wasn't what was going on.
Further to that, please don't take clever acrostical shits in askme. Just flag and move on. Send us a note if you need to. But don't do that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:46 PM on May 5, 2010 [4 favorites]
Further to that, please don't take clever acrostical shits in askme. Just flag and move on. Send us a note if you need to. But don't do that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:46 PM on May 5, 2010 [4 favorites]
Acrostical Shits would be an excellent band name.
posted by cgomez at 10:50 PM on May 5, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by cgomez at 10:50 PM on May 5, 2010 [6 favorites]
Pointystick: yes indeed, I like that idea. Also the "yes I really did try to stick the baby Jesus from our nativity set back up Mary... it was before the 25th, so he wasn't supposed to be born yet, so that's where he belonged!" Ok maybe that was just me (age 5 or so).
posted by nat at 11:00 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by nat at 11:00 PM on May 5, 2010 [1 favorite]
The poster needs to think twice before asking another why question.
Requests for a concrete solution to a concrete problem ("Need suggestions for a computer chair (Toronto, Canada)", etc.) are fine, but the why questions ("Why do rich people kill themselves?" "Why do people become dentists?" "Why do defense attorneys defend those who are clearly guilty?" "Why do people become gynecologists?") make it seem as if he is just killing time at the keyboard and inviting us to muse over something with him rather than ask an answerable question whose answer will be useful to others. That, or the poster is a bored school guidance counselor.
posted by pracowity at 11:04 PM on May 5, 2010
Requests for a concrete solution to a concrete problem ("Need suggestions for a computer chair (Toronto, Canada)", etc.) are fine, but the why questions ("Why do rich people kill themselves?" "Why do people become dentists?" "Why do defense attorneys defend those who are clearly guilty?" "Why do people become gynecologists?") make it seem as if he is just killing time at the keyboard and inviting us to muse over something with him rather than ask an answerable question whose answer will be useful to others. That, or the poster is a bored school guidance counselor.
posted by pracowity at 11:04 PM on May 5, 2010
foxjacket: Honestly, the OP's question made me think, "Well, I wanna know why people choose to have a job where they do bikini waxes, Brazilian waxes and anal bleaching on people! How do they explain that? How are they not embarrassed? Why didn't they get a better job?"
Previously.
posted by punchdrunkhistory at 11:14 PM on May 5, 2010
Previously.
posted by punchdrunkhistory at 11:14 PM on May 5, 2010
If he's allowed to ask why people make certain choices, I feel that it's fair for us to ask why he chooses to ask so many questions that make generalizations about others and are offensive. If he's mentally ill, maybe his questions should be deleted so that we aren't feeding into whatever he gets out of posting these ridiculous questions. At my old job, we had a lot of mentally ill people call to hassle us, and and engaging them in the discussion just encouraged them to call more. We would tell them each time that our phone number was not for that purpose and hang up. If this guy is not mentally ill, then he really has no excuse, and we can feel free to take umbrage.
It's not fair to be like "don't diss this guy, he's not normal" but allow him to post against guidelines repeatedly.
I've been up for about a day straight, so I'll stop there.
posted by ishotjr at 11:21 PM on May 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
It's not fair to be like "don't diss this guy, he's not normal" but allow him to post against guidelines repeatedly.
I've been up for about a day straight, so I'll stop there.
posted by ishotjr at 11:21 PM on May 5, 2010 [5 favorites]
What makes you think that one part of my body is less respectable than another?
Maybe he/she's confusing "respectable" with "respected"?
I honestly don't know if the poster is legit - gut reaction is as others, above: clueless but not malicious. If you read the actual words of that post though, you have to read a lot into them to get "bad person" out of them.
One person responded, "...they care about women's reproductive health. Why do you feel that's not worth caring for?" which is flat out a mean reading of the poster. They didn't say or imply anything like that. It's ok to be offended (by anything) but surely someone's intent is more important than any one reading of any one word they use? If not, we're all - each and every one of us - really fucked. I think the trend to be offended by words themselves, rather than the intent behind them is insidious, dangerous and worrying (in that it affects people in the real word all the time, not in a "ooh something to worry about!" way).
Wasn't calling out that particular responder though, that just seemed the best example. There were some excellent replies too.
I know, maybe I'm wrong to presume good intent over bad, here or elsewhere. I'd rather be wrong about that though than the other way round. What's the point otherwise?
posted by blue funk at 3:38 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Maybe he/she's confusing "respectable" with "respected"?
I honestly don't know if the poster is legit - gut reaction is as others, above: clueless but not malicious. If you read the actual words of that post though, you have to read a lot into them to get "bad person" out of them.
One person responded, "...they care about women's reproductive health. Why do you feel that's not worth caring for?" which is flat out a mean reading of the poster. They didn't say or imply anything like that. It's ok to be offended (by anything) but surely someone's intent is more important than any one reading of any one word they use? If not, we're all - each and every one of us - really fucked. I think the trend to be offended by words themselves, rather than the intent behind them is insidious, dangerous and worrying (in that it affects people in the real word all the time, not in a "ooh something to worry about!" way).
Wasn't calling out that particular responder though, that just seemed the best example. There were some excellent replies too.
I know, maybe I'm wrong to presume good intent over bad, here or elsewhere. I'd rather be wrong about that though than the other way round. What's the point otherwise?
posted by blue funk at 3:38 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
mi·sog·y·ny /mɪˈsɒdʒəni, maɪ-/ –verb
To miss the point about obtetricians being normal doctors and focus on vaginas amirite.
posted by MuffinMan at 4:27 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
To miss the point about obtetricians being normal doctors and focus on vaginas amirite.
posted by MuffinMan at 4:27 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
If he's allowed to ask why people make certain choices, I feel that it's fair for us to ask why he chooses to ask so many questions that make generalizations about others and are offensive.
Many people have gently mentioned that in the thread. Calling him a moron or an idiot or feeble-minded is not okay for AskMe no matter what.
I'll let him know next time he posts a similar question that open-ended "Why" questions that don't really have a solveable problem and piss people off needlessly are really not that great.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:17 AM on May 6, 2010
Many people have gently mentioned that in the thread. Calling him a moron or an idiot or feeble-minded is not okay for AskMe no matter what.
I'll let him know next time he posts a similar question that open-ended "Why" questions that don't really have a solveable problem and piss people off needlessly are really not that great.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:17 AM on May 6, 2010
Why did he favorite his own comment?
Why is that any of our concern?
posted by Jaltcoh at 5:31 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Why is that any of our concern?
posted by Jaltcoh at 5:31 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
"any more than children asking if black people sunburn are being racist."
Jess, as someone who did exactly that (when 4 years old and sitting next to the first person of colour I had ever seen) I disagree with how this was handled. It's almost as if he gets a pass because he's triggering some kind of weird protective streak and the comparison with children's questions is telling. Obviously you've had more contact but to be honest I was really offended by the way the (re-phrased) question was phrased.
There are people on the site I dislike, there are people I fundamentally disagree with, I love the intellectual discomfort of having my assumptions challenged, and I've stuck with Meta throughout the worst excesses of the boyzone, as lots of us struggled to get the balance right.
The phrasing made me uncomfortable and not in a good way.
posted by Wilder at 5:44 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Jess, as someone who did exactly that (when 4 years old and sitting next to the first person of colour I had ever seen) I disagree with how this was handled. It's almost as if he gets a pass because he's triggering some kind of weird protective streak and the comparison with children's questions is telling. Obviously you've had more contact but to be honest I was really offended by the way the (re-phrased) question was phrased.
There are people on the site I dislike, there are people I fundamentally disagree with, I love the intellectual discomfort of having my assumptions challenged, and I've stuck with Meta throughout the worst excesses of the boyzone, as lots of us struggled to get the balance right.
The phrasing made me uncomfortable and not in a good way.
posted by Wilder at 5:44 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Okay, one of the things that I thought the poster might have been trying to ask, which is something that I've wondered about is, does seeing genitals of your preferred gender on a regular basis (ie daily for work, without romantic or sexual context) change the way sex is for you? Is it more difficult for you to be aroused by your naked partner due to desensitisation? Would it be better if I asked in AskMe, what jobs experiences (rather than chemicals or work conditions) affect workers' ability to be aroused by their partners?
posted by b33j at 5:59 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by b33j at 5:59 AM on May 6, 2010
he's triggering some kind of weird protective streak
I don't think trying to stop people from calling other people moronic in Ask MetaFilter is at all weirdly protective. This may just be my personal idea of community that is not shared. However it seems obvious to me that this guy has some sort of issue that is keeping him from being able to ask questions considerately and he was distressed enough that we removed his question that he was eager to rewrite it as quickly as possible.
My assumption going into this was that it was better that he ask a somewhat problematic question that people could gently discuss with him rather than just keep emailing him "no that question isn't any good either" but maybe that was just me trying to keep everyone happy and making no one happy. It's quite clear that my feeling that people would do this (gently challenge his assumptions while not calling him an idiot) was incorrect. Many people have done it, but many people also have not and that thread has been a real hassle to moderate.
We've heard what you said. This guy's questions are problematic and the community can not manage that on its own. I know he intends to keep asking them, as often as he can. I will talk to him and find a way to work this out.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:07 AM on May 6, 2010
I don't think trying to stop people from calling other people moronic in Ask MetaFilter is at all weirdly protective. This may just be my personal idea of community that is not shared. However it seems obvious to me that this guy has some sort of issue that is keeping him from being able to ask questions considerately and he was distressed enough that we removed his question that he was eager to rewrite it as quickly as possible.
My assumption going into this was that it was better that he ask a somewhat problematic question that people could gently discuss with him rather than just keep emailing him "no that question isn't any good either" but maybe that was just me trying to keep everyone happy and making no one happy. It's quite clear that my feeling that people would do this (gently challenge his assumptions while not calling him an idiot) was incorrect. Many people have done it, but many people also have not and that thread has been a real hassle to moderate.
We've heard what you said. This guy's questions are problematic and the community can not manage that on its own. I know he intends to keep asking them, as often as he can. I will talk to him and find a way to work this out.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:07 AM on May 6, 2010
If this question was edited, I'd like to know why his question about criminal defense attorneys wasn't edited to take out the part that asked (somewhat rhetorically) if they have "no conscience." This was more offensive than anything in the gynecologist question.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:11 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:11 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
This question wasn't edited exactly. I deleted it and got an email from the OP within minutes asking if there was a way he could rephrase it [because I'd mentioned that in the reason for deletion] and we went back and forth about how to do that. Honestly I don't remember why we didn't delete the defense attorneys one but my recollection was that it hadn't been flagged a lot and there were a lot of really good answers in the thread.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:13 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:13 AM on May 6, 2010
If this question was edited, I'd like to know why his question about criminal defense attorneys wasn't edited to take out the part that asked (somewhat rhetorically) if they have "no conscience."
You know the mods are only human and not every problematic situation is analogous to another, right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:14 AM on May 6, 2010
You know the mods are only human and not every problematic situation is analogous to another, right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:14 AM on May 6, 2010
I thought the phrasing was naive and irritating, but the reaction here, with the jeering and the liberal discussion of his mental faculties and, Jesus, the obsessive parsing of his posting times - well that seems uglier to me.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:15 AM on May 6, 2010 [17 favorites]
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:15 AM on May 6, 2010 [17 favorites]
Why is that any of our concern?
Oh sorry, I didn't realize we were only to discuss the idiosyncrasies of the OP that interest you.
posted by amro at 6:36 AM on May 6, 2010
Oh sorry, I didn't realize we were only to discuss the idiosyncrasies of the OP that interest you.
posted by amro at 6:36 AM on May 6, 2010
Why is that any of our concern?
Oh sorry, I didn't realize we were only to discuss the idiosyncrasies of the OP that interest you.
You might have noticed that I opted to use the first-person plural rather than the first-person singular.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:40 AM on May 6, 2010
Oh sorry, I didn't realize we were only to discuss the idiosyncrasies of the OP that interest you.
You might have noticed that I opted to use the first-person plural rather than the first-person singular.
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:40 AM on May 6, 2010
This question wasn't edited exactly. I deleted it and got an email from the OP within minutes asking if there was a way he could rephrase it [because I'd mentioned that in the reason for deletion] and we went back and forth about how to do that.
So you deleted his initial version, then went back and forth over how to rephrase it, then accepted his revised version? If that's not editing, I don't know what is. (I'm not complaining -- it sounds like the question needed editing, and the situation was handled well.)
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:43 AM on May 6, 2010
So you deleted his initial version, then went back and forth over how to rephrase it, then accepted his revised version? If that's not editing, I don't know what is. (I'm not complaining -- it sounds like the question needed editing, and the situation was handled well.)
posted by Jaltcoh at 6:43 AM on May 6, 2010
Here's how we define editing as used in the sentence "we never edit posts"
Editing is when we go in and make a change and don't require the OP to sign off on it. We think this is only permissable in cases of HTML fixing, obvious glaring problematic typos, removing a promotional link in AskMe, moving the more to inside, and a few other cases outlined in the FAQ. We never edit for content without the OPs okay.
We do, maybe three or four times a year, delete a question because it's problematic and have the OP contact us really super quickly asking if there's a way they can rephrase it. Since we're sympathetic to people having to wait a week to ask another question [this OP's proclivities aside] if this is something we can do quickly and easily then we'll try to do it. However this requires multiple back and forth emails and the way the system is set up, the question will appear wherever it was on the page [i.e. it won't go to the top of the page] so time is sort of important. If the OP emailed us eight hours later to ask if we could do this, the question would already be way down the page and we'd say "sorry, please wait until next week" and sometimes this makes people angry.
And, this is not something we offer as a "service" for exactly this reason. It requires coordination and time which we sometimes don't have. Emailing the OP to say "hey we can save this if we can make some edits, would you work with me on this?" is a nice thing to do but then if the OP emails back eight hours later, that won't work. And then we feel like we've set them up. So we don't do it.
So while I get what you're saying "this looks like editing" there's a pretty context-specific way we mean it generally when we say "we never edit" and this is more like a repost which happens in rare circumstances maybe a few times a year and only when a bunch of different elements come together at the same time.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:50 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Editing is when we go in and make a change and don't require the OP to sign off on it. We think this is only permissable in cases of HTML fixing, obvious glaring problematic typos, removing a promotional link in AskMe, moving the more to inside, and a few other cases outlined in the FAQ. We never edit for content without the OPs okay.
We do, maybe three or four times a year, delete a question because it's problematic and have the OP contact us really super quickly asking if there's a way they can rephrase it. Since we're sympathetic to people having to wait a week to ask another question [this OP's proclivities aside] if this is something we can do quickly and easily then we'll try to do it. However this requires multiple back and forth emails and the way the system is set up, the question will appear wherever it was on the page [i.e. it won't go to the top of the page] so time is sort of important. If the OP emailed us eight hours later to ask if we could do this, the question would already be way down the page and we'd say "sorry, please wait until next week" and sometimes this makes people angry.
And, this is not something we offer as a "service" for exactly this reason. It requires coordination and time which we sometimes don't have. Emailing the OP to say "hey we can save this if we can make some edits, would you work with me on this?" is a nice thing to do but then if the OP emails back eight hours later, that won't work. And then we feel like we've set them up. So we don't do it.
So while I get what you're saying "this looks like editing" there's a pretty context-specific way we mean it generally when we say "we never edit" and this is more like a repost which happens in rare circumstances maybe a few times a year and only when a bunch of different elements come together at the same time.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:50 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
You might have noticed that I opted to use the first-person plural rather than the first-person singular.
That doesn't really matter. You're questioning why we should be concerned about the poster's misuse of the "mark as best answer" feature. Well, because he's misusing a feature. Not sure why that wasn't clear to you.
posted by amro at 7:00 AM on May 6, 2010
That doesn't really matter. You're questioning why we should be concerned about the poster's misuse of the "mark as best answer" feature. Well, because he's misusing a feature. Not sure why that wasn't clear to you.
posted by amro at 7:00 AM on May 6, 2010
"any more than children asking if black people sunburn are being racist."
That's not racist. It's insensitive, but it's not racist.
From google's dictionary: racism is "the belief that some people are inferior because they belong to a particular race."
If I speculate that some people might not sunburn, that doesn't imply that I think those people are inferior.
It is natural for people to have questions about those that look and act differently from themselves. It is natural for men to have questions about women; it is natural for women to have questions about men; it is natural for people with light skin color to have questions about people with dark skin color. Simply having-a-question about someone does not mean that you think that person is bad, stupid or lower-ranking than you.
If you can't ever imagine yourself wanting to become a gynecologist, it's natural to wonder why someone else would want to.
However, we live in a world in which certain groups have been terribly mistreated. And if you ask a question that assumes one of those groups IS a distinct group, you will hurt some people's feelings. Part of being sensitive is realizing that and curtailing your (healthy and natural) curiosity.
But you don't just magically become sensitive. It takes a certain type of personality (empathic) coupled with specific life experiences and training. Not everyone has had those experiences. Not everyone has had good parents, teachers and community members.
I don't know much about the OP, but let's imagine an 19-year-old, just out of high school. He has grown up in the Bible Belt of the united states. He has never had a girlfriend. Everyone around him is conservative (and not just in the political sense) and no one has taught him how to research. There are scores of people like that. They just don't usually find their way to metafilter.
People here are saying, "reproductive science is a fascinating field." That's true, but it assumes a world view in which people choose careers out of pure intellectual excitement. Such a world would be totally alien to many of the people I grew up with in Southern Indiana. "Gynecology saves lives!" Yes, of course, but you have to KNOW that. I probably didn't know that until I was 22 or so. If you don't know much about women, you don't know much about what can go wrong with their bodies.
I am sorry that we make ignorance a sin. To be honest, I don't really care about the OP. I don't know him. But I do care about reducing the amount of ignorance in the world. Saying "that question is offensive" doesn't do that.
I AM NOT SAYING, "Well, then, we need to accept any offensive thing anyone says." We can have community standards. Sometimes such standards will lock certain people out due to no fault of their own. If Fred was raised in his parents basement and never shown silverware, it's not his fault that he eats with his hands, but I'm not going to let him into my four-star restaurant. But I'm also not going to call Fred a "filthy pig." Similarly, we should not hurl accusations of racism at someone -- an accusation that assumes the person thinks some races are inferior to others -- because he asks a question.
And community standards have costs. If we're going to decide that offensive questions should be banned, than we should, with eyes wide open, accept the fact that means we will miss chances to reduce ignorance.
Personally, though I understand that we need to be sensitive, I think, in the end, all this sensitivity HURTS the strive to end racism and promote Feminism. It causes people to repress what they know in their hearts is a healthy impulse: curiosity. And repression leads to angry that generally bursts out in pathological ways.
I am a "different" person in some ways. But I have an open-door policy about questions. People are allowed to ask me anything they want, and no question offends me. I default to an assumption of good faith, even if that makes me a chump sometimes. (I realize that the OP might be a troll. Whatever. I will risk being a troll's chump. There are more important things at stake.) I don't do that out of the goodness of my heart. I do it because, in my experience, calmly and honestly answering a question diffuses tensions much more often than chastisement, sarcasm and indifference.
The day we calmly and accurately explain to someone about skin pigmentation and sunburn is that day that -- maybe -- we move someone an inch away from becoming (or remaining) a racist. We send a message that says, "We're all human; we all have human bodies; here's how those bodies work. And you're not a terrible person for wondering about it." And of course, we also need to explain to that person why, even though he may mean no harm, others may be offended by his questions. That's also part of the truth.
posted by grumblebee at 7:04 AM on May 6, 2010 [48 favorites]
That's not racist. It's insensitive, but it's not racist.
From google's dictionary: racism is "the belief that some people are inferior because they belong to a particular race."
If I speculate that some people might not sunburn, that doesn't imply that I think those people are inferior.
It is natural for people to have questions about those that look and act differently from themselves. It is natural for men to have questions about women; it is natural for women to have questions about men; it is natural for people with light skin color to have questions about people with dark skin color. Simply having-a-question about someone does not mean that you think that person is bad, stupid or lower-ranking than you.
If you can't ever imagine yourself wanting to become a gynecologist, it's natural to wonder why someone else would want to.
However, we live in a world in which certain groups have been terribly mistreated. And if you ask a question that assumes one of those groups IS a distinct group, you will hurt some people's feelings. Part of being sensitive is realizing that and curtailing your (healthy and natural) curiosity.
But you don't just magically become sensitive. It takes a certain type of personality (empathic) coupled with specific life experiences and training. Not everyone has had those experiences. Not everyone has had good parents, teachers and community members.
I don't know much about the OP, but let's imagine an 19-year-old, just out of high school. He has grown up in the Bible Belt of the united states. He has never had a girlfriend. Everyone around him is conservative (and not just in the political sense) and no one has taught him how to research. There are scores of people like that. They just don't usually find their way to metafilter.
People here are saying, "reproductive science is a fascinating field." That's true, but it assumes a world view in which people choose careers out of pure intellectual excitement. Such a world would be totally alien to many of the people I grew up with in Southern Indiana. "Gynecology saves lives!" Yes, of course, but you have to KNOW that. I probably didn't know that until I was 22 or so. If you don't know much about women, you don't know much about what can go wrong with their bodies.
I am sorry that we make ignorance a sin. To be honest, I don't really care about the OP. I don't know him. But I do care about reducing the amount of ignorance in the world. Saying "that question is offensive" doesn't do that.
I AM NOT SAYING, "Well, then, we need to accept any offensive thing anyone says." We can have community standards. Sometimes such standards will lock certain people out due to no fault of their own. If Fred was raised in his parents basement and never shown silverware, it's not his fault that he eats with his hands, but I'm not going to let him into my four-star restaurant. But I'm also not going to call Fred a "filthy pig." Similarly, we should not hurl accusations of racism at someone -- an accusation that assumes the person thinks some races are inferior to others -- because he asks a question.
And community standards have costs. If we're going to decide that offensive questions should be banned, than we should, with eyes wide open, accept the fact that means we will miss chances to reduce ignorance.
Personally, though I understand that we need to be sensitive, I think, in the end, all this sensitivity HURTS the strive to end racism and promote Feminism. It causes people to repress what they know in their hearts is a healthy impulse: curiosity. And repression leads to angry that generally bursts out in pathological ways.
I am a "different" person in some ways. But I have an open-door policy about questions. People are allowed to ask me anything they want, and no question offends me. I default to an assumption of good faith, even if that makes me a chump sometimes. (I realize that the OP might be a troll. Whatever. I will risk being a troll's chump. There are more important things at stake.) I don't do that out of the goodness of my heart. I do it because, in my experience, calmly and honestly answering a question diffuses tensions much more often than chastisement, sarcasm and indifference.
The day we calmly and accurately explain to someone about skin pigmentation and sunburn is that day that -- maybe -- we move someone an inch away from becoming (or remaining) a racist. We send a message that says, "We're all human; we all have human bodies; here's how those bodies work. And you're not a terrible person for wondering about it." And of course, we also need to explain to that person why, even though he may mean no harm, others may be offended by his questions. That's also part of the truth.
posted by grumblebee at 7:04 AM on May 6, 2010 [48 favorites]
The question irked me a little, but it led to an interesting discussion. I bet there are a lot of people out there who secretly wonder the same thing and who will learn a lot from it.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 7:14 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by Solon and Thanks at 7:14 AM on May 6, 2010
grumblebee, I want to thank you for your thoughtful and sensitive posts both here and in the original thread. Logically, I know you're totally right. Emotionally, I was and still am really offended by the tone and implications of the question. As disgusting as the question makes me feel, I'm glad you and other MeFites have been able to keep cool and answer his question rationally. Who knows, maybe you guys actually did help him reconsider his worldview.
posted by oinopaponton at 7:16 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by oinopaponton at 7:16 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Emotionally, I was and still am really offended by the tone and implications of the question.
Thanks for your kind words. I want to make clear that I don't think you're a bad person for being offended. I think we have an unfortunate clash of two natural impulses: naive curiosity and outrage at insensitivity. I don't think either of these impulses are perverse. But they do clash.
In a way, I think the outcome here isn't all that bad. If EVERYONE had just calmly answered the question, the way I'm advocating, then the OP would not get the message that such questions may offend people. And that's part of the truth he needs to learn. (It might also help him to learn WHY such questions offend people.)
Had EVERYONE piled on him, he would have probably just felt defensive, angry and unfairly treated. And he would still be none the wiser. He'd be ignorant AND angry.
So my intent wasn't to chastise those who were offended (one such person was my wife). It was more to act as a balancing force.
posted by grumblebee at 7:37 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Thanks for your kind words. I want to make clear that I don't think you're a bad person for being offended. I think we have an unfortunate clash of two natural impulses: naive curiosity and outrage at insensitivity. I don't think either of these impulses are perverse. But they do clash.
In a way, I think the outcome here isn't all that bad. If EVERYONE had just calmly answered the question, the way I'm advocating, then the OP would not get the message that such questions may offend people. And that's part of the truth he needs to learn. (It might also help him to learn WHY such questions offend people.)
Had EVERYONE piled on him, he would have probably just felt defensive, angry and unfairly treated. And he would still be none the wiser. He'd be ignorant AND angry.
So my intent wasn't to chastise those who were offended (one such person was my wife). It was more to act as a balancing force.
posted by grumblebee at 7:37 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't know much about the OP, but let's imagine an 19-year-old, just out of high school. He has grown up in the Bible Belt of the united states.
Looks like he's from Toronto, so he's not getting the backwards sheltered life pass from me. His question is the most misogynist thing I've seen on this site in years & I have to disagree with those saying it does no good to pile on this guy. Sometimes a visceral reaction is the only way some people clue in that their view is askew. Looking at his posting history he seems like the perfect candidate for the two-by-four & not the kid gloves.
posted by zarah at 7:50 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Looks like he's from Toronto, so he's not getting the backwards sheltered life pass from me. His question is the most misogynist thing I've seen on this site in years & I have to disagree with those saying it does no good to pile on this guy. Sometimes a visceral reaction is the only way some people clue in that their view is askew. Looking at his posting history he seems like the perfect candidate for the two-by-four & not the kid gloves.
posted by zarah at 7:50 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Looking at his posting history he seems like the perfect candidate for the two-by-four & not the kid gloves.
Yes, the image of hitting someone with a two-by-four is the perfect way to deal with misogyny.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:53 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yes, the image of hitting someone with a two-by-four is the perfect way to deal with misogyny.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:53 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
If that question results in a teenage boy learning a few things about medicine and women's bodies and the kinds of conversations adults have, then it's no bad thing. No need for a pile-on here, I think.
This post indicates that he's at least out of high school, so we can stop the speculation that he's a thirteen-year-old boy. In the comment thread in another question, he mentions looking for a "work or office" mentor. So we know that he's of an age where he's looking for gainful employment in an office environment.
Is there something neurologically "atypical" about him? I have no idea. I personally can't imagine anyone over the age of puberty holding this kind "girls have cooties" attitude. But I'm not going to speculate here any longer. It's a little frustrating that he won't come in this thread and explain himself further, but if he doesn't, we just can't know what's going on in his head.
Personally I had a knee-jerk negative reaction to his comment, so it's hard for me to be too thoughtful about his motivation. Which is another reason I won't make any more comments.
posted by Evangeline at 7:57 AM on May 6, 2010
This post indicates that he's at least out of high school, so we can stop the speculation that he's a thirteen-year-old boy. In the comment thread in another question, he mentions looking for a "work or office" mentor. So we know that he's of an age where he's looking for gainful employment in an office environment.
Is there something neurologically "atypical" about him? I have no idea. I personally can't imagine anyone over the age of puberty holding this kind "girls have cooties" attitude. But I'm not going to speculate here any longer. It's a little frustrating that he won't come in this thread and explain himself further, but if he doesn't, we just can't know what's going on in his head.
Personally I had a knee-jerk negative reaction to his comment, so it's hard for me to be too thoughtful about his motivation. Which is another reason I won't make any more comments.
posted by Evangeline at 7:57 AM on May 6, 2010
jessamyn: "However it seems obvious to me that this guy has some sort of issue that is keeping him from being able to ask questions considerately and he was distressed enough that we removed his question that he was eager to rewrite it as quickly as possible."
This part isn't obvious to me at all. Just from reading his questions and responses, nothing to me says "distressed" or "eager." It's like if someone posts without caps and with a bunch of typos and half sentences, and then does this five or six times after folks have expressed concern that his posting style might be getting in the way. Maybe he was being genuine and maybe there's a great question hidden within the post, but there's no way we can know that from what he's posted.
posted by yaymukund at 8:07 AM on May 6, 2010
This part isn't obvious to me at all. Just from reading his questions and responses, nothing to me says "distressed" or "eager." It's like if someone posts without caps and with a bunch of typos and half sentences, and then does this five or six times after folks have expressed concern that his posting style might be getting in the way. Maybe he was being genuine and maybe there's a great question hidden within the post, but there's no way we can know that from what he's posted.
posted by yaymukund at 8:07 AM on May 6, 2010
Sometimes a visceral reaction is the only way some people clue in that their view is askew.
Since I'm big on reasoned discussion rather than chastisement, I hear this a lot. I don't discount it. What I can say, from my own life, is that being chastised has never taught me a lesson. It just makes me shut down and bury things deep inside myself. I may try to keep that stuff buried forever, but I will fail. It will bubble up in some twisted, passive-aggressive way.
But I'm not going to pretend my experience is universal. There are probably people (the majority? the minority?) who learn from group censure.
Have you seen this happen? When you say that sometimes this sort of pileon is what people need, can you think of many cases in which it's lead to someone changing? Have you ever changed because a bunch of people mobbed you?
I'm sure that plenty of people have shut up when they realized that whatever they were saying was causing everyone to get mad at them. And if that's the kind of change you're looking for -- for the OP to just quit asking questions like this -- then I think you're probably onto a smart approach.
My concern is ensuring, as much as possible, that suppression doesn't lead to a disease that is worse than the cure.
posted by grumblebee at 8:10 AM on May 6, 2010 [10 favorites]
Since I'm big on reasoned discussion rather than chastisement, I hear this a lot. I don't discount it. What I can say, from my own life, is that being chastised has never taught me a lesson. It just makes me shut down and bury things deep inside myself. I may try to keep that stuff buried forever, but I will fail. It will bubble up in some twisted, passive-aggressive way.
But I'm not going to pretend my experience is universal. There are probably people (the majority? the minority?) who learn from group censure.
Have you seen this happen? When you say that sometimes this sort of pileon is what people need, can you think of many cases in which it's lead to someone changing? Have you ever changed because a bunch of people mobbed you?
I'm sure that plenty of people have shut up when they realized that whatever they were saying was causing everyone to get mad at them. And if that's the kind of change you're looking for -- for the OP to just quit asking questions like this -- then I think you're probably onto a smart approach.
My concern is ensuring, as much as possible, that suppression doesn't lead to a disease that is worse than the cure.
posted by grumblebee at 8:10 AM on May 6, 2010 [10 favorites]
Yes, the image of hitting someone with a two-by-four is the perfect way to deal with misogyny.
So you're literally wearing gloves made of baby lamb Brandon? Interesting!
posted by zarah at 8:11 AM on May 6, 2010
So you're literally wearing gloves made of baby lamb Brandon? Interesting!
posted by zarah at 8:11 AM on May 6, 2010
This part isn't obvious to me at all.
Which is fine, and I can appreciate that just looking at what the dude has said (mostly asked) on-site isn't a lot to work with given the lack of direct discussion of his motivations and such.
But Jess has said a couple times in here that she's been trading a bunch of email with him. She's not cold-reading the threads and divining here. At a certain point folks need to go ahead and trust us when it comes to what we're getting from someone back-channel, since we're not going to toss up a transcript of an email conversation for general review.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:13 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Which is fine, and I can appreciate that just looking at what the dude has said (mostly asked) on-site isn't a lot to work with given the lack of direct discussion of his motivations and such.
But Jess has said a couple times in here that she's been trading a bunch of email with him. She's not cold-reading the threads and divining here. At a certain point folks need to go ahead and trust us when it comes to what we're getting from someone back-channel, since we're not going to toss up a transcript of an email conversation for general review.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:13 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Have you ever changed because a bunch of people mobbed you?
Absolutely! I won't give you examples because my life is none of your business, but suffice to say I have been blind enough in some areas that it took some "wtf are you retarded?" to get me to open my eyes. You're right when you say your experience isn't universal, and neither is mine; we have to deal with each other individually and based on what I've read this guy seems like he needs a loud noise to wake up rather than whisper.
posted by zarah at 8:23 AM on May 6, 2010
Absolutely! I won't give you examples because my life is none of your business, but suffice to say I have been blind enough in some areas that it took some "wtf are you retarded?" to get me to open my eyes. You're right when you say your experience isn't universal, and neither is mine; we have to deal with each other individually and based on what I've read this guy seems like he needs a loud noise to wake up rather than whisper.
posted by zarah at 8:23 AM on May 6, 2010
If someone asked: "Why do men go to strip clubs and tittie bars? Why don't they find a more respectable entertainment?" would you be calling the question misogynistic? No, of course not, but that is equivalent to the OP's question about gynecology. That he can't see further than that, that he views the human body in that way and only that way, is very immature, but it isn't disrespectful, per se. Many, many people (some with more tact than others), both male and female, feel the same way about the body and see it as a sigh of respect.
Just looking at his posting history, the OP seem very needy and lonely. I don't think those are things that demand a person be banned; we would lose a lot of AskMe regulars. I don't think this is a good question or well phrased but, it's not the most absurd question asked this month (I nominate this one, but that's just me.) However, these absurd ('moronic') questions, including several of the OP's, have spawned quite a few really great answers! And I think that makes them tolerable. An early comment mentioned the possibility of some real thirteen year old coming across this question, and being exposed to those answers. Yes, such a kid would be googling for titillation, but those answers would be valuable to such a kid, wouldn't they?
I don't want a hundred such questions a week, or even five, but dealing with a few, just to get the chance to read the good, honest, well intentioned responses, seems worthwhile.
posted by Some1 at 8:32 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Just looking at his posting history, the OP seem very needy and lonely. I don't think those are things that demand a person be banned; we would lose a lot of AskMe regulars. I don't think this is a good question or well phrased but, it's not the most absurd question asked this month (I nominate this one, but that's just me.) However, these absurd ('moronic') questions, including several of the OP's, have spawned quite a few really great answers! And I think that makes them tolerable. An early comment mentioned the possibility of some real thirteen year old coming across this question, and being exposed to those answers. Yes, such a kid would be googling for titillation, but those answers would be valuable to such a kid, wouldn't they?
I don't want a hundred such questions a week, or even five, but dealing with a few, just to get the chance to read the good, honest, well intentioned responses, seems worthwhile.
posted by Some1 at 8:32 AM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
So you're literally wearing gloves made of baby lamb Brandon? Interesting!
It's been a dream of mine.
But hey, if you see nothing wrong with violent imagery against another poster in the fight against misogyny, then more power to ya.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:40 AM on May 6, 2010
It's been a dream of mine.
But hey, if you see nothing wrong with violent imagery against another poster in the fight against misogyny, then more power to ya.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:40 AM on May 6, 2010
Just for the record, kid gloves are made of baby goat. "Baby lamb" is redundant. Not to derail, but it was bugging me.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:44 AM on May 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:44 AM on May 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
I'm pretty sure the 2 x 4 referenced was really more of the metaphorical "clue x 4." I don't think zarah was advocating literal violence for asking a silly question on the internet.
posted by chiababe at 8:46 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by chiababe at 8:46 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
for heaven's sake, this last question is quite offensive. When you state that gynecology is not a respectable branch of medicine for a doctor to pursue, well, that's offensive to a woman. We're not dirty or shameful just because we have vaginas.
Obviously the question was phrased very badly.
But abbat didn't say "Vaginas are gross and shameful and nobody should look at them," he just used the unfortunate word "respectable" in relation to gynecology.
But it's not hard to see what he's getting at, in a broader setting. Medicine in general involves some violation of mild social taboos (in the Anglosphere anyway), since it involves touching other people and seeing them disrobed. But there are specialties that don't involve areas of the body that have additional taboos layered on top of them, like cardiology or orthopedics or neurology or radiology. And then there are specialties that involve body parts that do have very clear taboos associated with them, like gynecology and urology and proctology, or maybe podiatry.
It's pretty obvious, and probably should have been to abbat too, that many people move into ob/gyn because BABIES!. But more broadly, the question made me curious about what draws new MDs into fields like urology or proctology or other potentially taboo-ridden specialties... Maybe it's just the case that medical school admissions and medical school itself weeds out people who find the taboos associated with the anogenital region any concern at all. Maybe people get drawn into it because of personal experiences or fascination with the relevant bodily systems. Maybe the fields actually do have trouble drawing in residents or fellows, and higher pay compensates. Maybe the fields have trouble drawing in residents or fellows and they end up with people who knew that they weren't going cut it as cardiac surgeons or neurosurgeons or other commonly-seen-as-glorious specialties and strategically those specialties for reasons that made sense to them. Maybe the fields have some trouble recruiting but there are enough new MDs out there with a strong enough motivation to enter underserved specialties because anuses and penises need medical care too to fill them. I certainly don't know and would be curious to find out.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:46 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Obviously the question was phrased very badly.
But abbat didn't say "Vaginas are gross and shameful and nobody should look at them," he just used the unfortunate word "respectable" in relation to gynecology.
But it's not hard to see what he's getting at, in a broader setting. Medicine in general involves some violation of mild social taboos (in the Anglosphere anyway), since it involves touching other people and seeing them disrobed. But there are specialties that don't involve areas of the body that have additional taboos layered on top of them, like cardiology or orthopedics or neurology or radiology. And then there are specialties that involve body parts that do have very clear taboos associated with them, like gynecology and urology and proctology, or maybe podiatry.
It's pretty obvious, and probably should have been to abbat too, that many people move into ob/gyn because BABIES!. But more broadly, the question made me curious about what draws new MDs into fields like urology or proctology or other potentially taboo-ridden specialties... Maybe it's just the case that medical school admissions and medical school itself weeds out people who find the taboos associated with the anogenital region any concern at all. Maybe people get drawn into it because of personal experiences or fascination with the relevant bodily systems. Maybe the fields actually do have trouble drawing in residents or fellows, and higher pay compensates. Maybe the fields have trouble drawing in residents or fellows and they end up with people who knew that they weren't going cut it as cardiac surgeons or neurosurgeons or other commonly-seen-as-glorious specialties and strategically those specialties for reasons that made sense to them. Maybe the fields have some trouble recruiting but there are enough new MDs out there with a strong enough motivation to enter underserved specialties because anuses and penises need medical care too to fill them. I certainly don't know and would be curious to find out.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:46 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
I think the most irritating thing here is that the OP doesn't give any clarifying details as to what would make him so much less informed about things that most on green take for granted. It could be anything from his life causing this - he could be from a different isolated culture, English could be a second language so nuances are off, he could have been a ferral child, he could have a mental disorder, he could have been abused / abandoned as a child, he could have lived in the middle of nowhere with just his parents who didnt do the best job of explaining things outside of an insular life. Who knows?
The OP does and it would be nice if he shared his thoughts on why his questions come off as irksome to so many people. No full history needed, but maybe just a hey, sorry, I was kinda sheltered as a kid or something. With no explanation and the uncanny scheduling of question posting, it seems like trolling.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:52 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
The OP does and it would be nice if he shared his thoughts on why his questions come off as irksome to so many people. No full history needed, but maybe just a hey, sorry, I was kinda sheltered as a kid or something. With no explanation and the uncanny scheduling of question posting, it seems like trolling.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:52 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Obviously, this would have gone over a lot better if his observation/claim re: respect wasn't gendered -- if he's included a few plumbing-related medical specialties. My sense is that he just seized on this one for some reason and went with it without much thought, and certainly without the necessary "how might this be misconstrued?" pre-post review and edit.
FWIW, I feel mildly the same way about dentistry. I could have taken over a relative's extremely lucrative dental business if the ick factor didn't send me over the edge. Now, sure, IT IS IMPORTANT WORK and it HELPS PEOPLE and on and on and on, but it's not something I'd want to do, and I might consider asking someone something along the lines of "did you get over being squicked out by this job, or did you never feel that way?" On the "respectable" issue, I get the sense from a few doctor friends that there is some kind of informal hierarchy among the specialities in terms of public opinion and opinion within the field itself. I get mixed messages from a dermatologist friend that he faces both some (minor) degree of scorn for his choice in speciality, and "respect" for the incredible, just mindboggling amounts of $$$ he gets for doing it. (note: there may be some connection betweeen these two reactions)
Anyway, this strikes me as poorly thought out but not maliciously intended. I agree with WeekendJen, though, that a followup would have been an easy way to clear up intentions.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:09 AM on May 6, 2010
FWIW, I feel mildly the same way about dentistry. I could have taken over a relative's extremely lucrative dental business if the ick factor didn't send me over the edge. Now, sure, IT IS IMPORTANT WORK and it HELPS PEOPLE and on and on and on, but it's not something I'd want to do, and I might consider asking someone something along the lines of "did you get over being squicked out by this job, or did you never feel that way?" On the "respectable" issue, I get the sense from a few doctor friends that there is some kind of informal hierarchy among the specialities in terms of public opinion and opinion within the field itself. I get mixed messages from a dermatologist friend that he faces both some (minor) degree of scorn for his choice in speciality, and "respect" for the incredible, just mindboggling amounts of $$$ he gets for doing it. (note: there may be some connection betweeen these two reactions)
Anyway, this strikes me as poorly thought out but not maliciously intended. I agree with WeekendJen, though, that a followup would have been an easy way to clear up intentions.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 9:09 AM on May 6, 2010
I think the most irritating thing here is that the OP doesn't give any clarifying details as to what would make him so much less informed about things that most on green take for granted.
I don't think most people are terrible self-aware about stuff like that. I am aware that I don't know much about particle physics and knitting, but I'm pretty dense about whether or not there are a bunch of common-sense things that most people know but I don't.
Every once in a while, I am surprised to learn something, and the people who are around me say, "How could you have reached the age you are without knowing about that?" Their surprise surprises me. I never realized I had an unusual gap in my knowledge.
That said, the OP MUST be aware of it by now, unless he's not following this thread.
posted by grumblebee at 9:10 AM on May 6, 2010
I don't think most people are terrible self-aware about stuff like that. I am aware that I don't know much about particle physics and knitting, but I'm pretty dense about whether or not there are a bunch of common-sense things that most people know but I don't.
Every once in a while, I am surprised to learn something, and the people who are around me say, "How could you have reached the age you are without knowing about that?" Their surprise surprises me. I never realized I had an unusual gap in my knowledge.
That said, the OP MUST be aware of it by now, unless he's not following this thread.
posted by grumblebee at 9:10 AM on May 6, 2010
I agree that it was phrased really poorly. However, I often wonder what draws people into their professions, particularly in professions that involve activities that, in the greater society, would be violations of norms. I've asked a male gynecologist what drew him into the field. It seems like he's doing an extreme version of this- while I am just interested in people and think this is a great excuse to learn more about them, he seems to fundamentally not understand people's motivations for doing anything outside of his worldview. I don't think this is that uncommon- I've met women who refuse to go to male gynecologists because they think they have some sort of sexual motivation for their profession.
I get asked similar questions all the time because my research interest is sexual assault and I used to be a medical advocate for victims- I'd much rather someone asked than assume I'm a rape victim doing mesearch.
posted by emilyd22222 at 9:12 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I get asked similar questions all the time because my research interest is sexual assault and I used to be a medical advocate for victims- I'd much rather someone asked than assume I'm a rape victim doing mesearch.
posted by emilyd22222 at 9:12 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I agree that it would help if the OP followed up here. It doesn't seem to be in anyone's best interest to keep this thread open unless that happens; it's just ugly, and full of mini character assassinations, ridiculous speculation, armchair diagnoses, and creepy comments.
posted by iconomy at 9:15 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
posted by iconomy at 9:15 AM on May 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
"Dated" a GYN many moons ago. I thought if anyone would be magical and all knowing, it would have been a GYN.
It was horrible.
I'm serious!
posted by stormpooper at 9:42 AM on May 6, 2010
It was horrible.
I'm serious!
posted by stormpooper at 9:42 AM on May 6, 2010
stormpooper, that sounds a lot like Seinfeld's gymnast episode and his subsequent disappointment in the sex (and hers in Jerry's comedian lack of prowess). :P
posted by 6550 at 9:47 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by 6550 at 9:47 AM on May 6, 2010
It's unnatural for an adult to be so out of step with the world that they assume that their own personal preferences must hold true for everyone else
Ha.
What's funny to me is that as strong as your conviction is that this is true, I have the exact opposite conviction -- with equal passion. Most people that I've met have a point at which they seem to assume that everyone else MUST be like them, and when they find someone who isn't, they get totally confused, angry or they accuse the other person of lying (he CAN'T he the way he claims he is).
I have met many, many, "reasonable" "adult" people who conform to this pattern. I probably conform to it, myself, but, like most people, I can't see my own blindspots.
This wouldn't be a big deal on Metafilter, but when I was growing up, I got flack whenever I admitted that I was agnostic. (I'm an atheist now, but I was agnostic until my early 20s.) That 100% described me, but most people I talked to, both theists and atheists, INSISTED I was lying. I HAD to believe one way or the other, and I was just too scared or too intellectually lazy to commit.
I had a roommate -- a really smart, educated guy -- who had no time for me when I claimed (truthfully) that if he was too noisy after I'd gone to sleep, it would ruin my whole night. "If I wake you up, just go back to sleep," he would say. He slept heavily and easily, and he couldn't imagine someone not being able to do that. The only mental model he could come up with for me was of someone who was complaining just to complain.
Tell everyday adults that you are a swinger, furry, practitioner of BDSM, etc. and see how many of them understand you.
Most people I meet, despite having general knowledge about psychology, INSIST that if they have a memory of something, it must be true. They will use this "fact" in arguments. "No you DIDN'T say that. I was there and I remember it CLEARLY!" Someone else will say, "Well, I was there, too, and I clearly remember him SAYING it!" Both will stubbornly cling to his world view. Neither will admit that, maybe, his clear memory is a false memory.
Most people I meet, despite having sympathy for folks with physical handicaps and obvious mental illnesses, have no sympathy for people with low IQs. Such people are "just morons" or "stupid," as if they could simple buck up and be smarter than they are.
I am a super-taster. When I say I hate the taste of, say, vinegar (which I do), I mean that I will throw up if I eat it. Many people don't believe me. To them, a bad taste is unpleasant, but not THAT big a deal.
People who are attracted to children can't help being attracted to them. (Perhaps they can help acting on that attraction.) Most people act like pedophiles -- even ones that don't act on their desires -- have a moral failing. But the same people will say, "Dammit! Homosexuality is NOT a choice!"
I know a ton of Liberals who don't see Conservatives as people. In fact, I've heard echos of "Why would anyone choose to be a gynecologist?" in statements like, "Why would anyone choose to be a Republican?" Conservatives are often just as blind about Liberals. As people who live around dozens and dozens of others who don't share their political convictions, you'd think they'd be "adult" enough to understand or at least try to.
I know many men who ask why so many women are bitches; I know many women who ask why so many men are bastards.
I could go on and on.
What I DO think is true is that there are social norms. There are "truths" that we're all supposed to know, and there are certain types of people we're not supposed to discriminate against. To some extent, this changes with the times. But at any given time, there are things we excuse and things we don't, and we expect our fellow adults to be with it enough to understand the rules. But those rules DO have to be learned. (If they didn't, they would be eternal, but they are at least partly swayed by current events and fashion.) And not everyone is given the tools to learn them.
posted by grumblebee at 9:51 AM on May 6, 2010 [43 favorites]
Ha.
What's funny to me is that as strong as your conviction is that this is true, I have the exact opposite conviction -- with equal passion. Most people that I've met have a point at which they seem to assume that everyone else MUST be like them, and when they find someone who isn't, they get totally confused, angry or they accuse the other person of lying (he CAN'T he the way he claims he is).
I have met many, many, "reasonable" "adult" people who conform to this pattern. I probably conform to it, myself, but, like most people, I can't see my own blindspots.
This wouldn't be a big deal on Metafilter, but when I was growing up, I got flack whenever I admitted that I was agnostic. (I'm an atheist now, but I was agnostic until my early 20s.) That 100% described me, but most people I talked to, both theists and atheists, INSISTED I was lying. I HAD to believe one way or the other, and I was just too scared or too intellectually lazy to commit.
I had a roommate -- a really smart, educated guy -- who had no time for me when I claimed (truthfully) that if he was too noisy after I'd gone to sleep, it would ruin my whole night. "If I wake you up, just go back to sleep," he would say. He slept heavily and easily, and he couldn't imagine someone not being able to do that. The only mental model he could come up with for me was of someone who was complaining just to complain.
Tell everyday adults that you are a swinger, furry, practitioner of BDSM, etc. and see how many of them understand you.
Most people I meet, despite having general knowledge about psychology, INSIST that if they have a memory of something, it must be true. They will use this "fact" in arguments. "No you DIDN'T say that. I was there and I remember it CLEARLY!" Someone else will say, "Well, I was there, too, and I clearly remember him SAYING it!" Both will stubbornly cling to his world view. Neither will admit that, maybe, his clear memory is a false memory.
Most people I meet, despite having sympathy for folks with physical handicaps and obvious mental illnesses, have no sympathy for people with low IQs. Such people are "just morons" or "stupid," as if they could simple buck up and be smarter than they are.
I am a super-taster. When I say I hate the taste of, say, vinegar (which I do), I mean that I will throw up if I eat it. Many people don't believe me. To them, a bad taste is unpleasant, but not THAT big a deal.
People who are attracted to children can't help being attracted to them. (Perhaps they can help acting on that attraction.) Most people act like pedophiles -- even ones that don't act on their desires -- have a moral failing. But the same people will say, "Dammit! Homosexuality is NOT a choice!"
I know a ton of Liberals who don't see Conservatives as people. In fact, I've heard echos of "Why would anyone choose to be a gynecologist?" in statements like, "Why would anyone choose to be a Republican?" Conservatives are often just as blind about Liberals. As people who live around dozens and dozens of others who don't share their political convictions, you'd think they'd be "adult" enough to understand or at least try to.
I know many men who ask why so many women are bitches; I know many women who ask why so many men are bastards.
I could go on and on.
What I DO think is true is that there are social norms. There are "truths" that we're all supposed to know, and there are certain types of people we're not supposed to discriminate against. To some extent, this changes with the times. But at any given time, there are things we excuse and things we don't, and we expect our fellow adults to be with it enough to understand the rules. But those rules DO have to be learned. (If they didn't, they would be eternal, but they are at least partly swayed by current events and fashion.) And not everyone is given the tools to learn them.
posted by grumblebee at 9:51 AM on May 6, 2010 [43 favorites]
It's unnatural for an adult to be so out of step with the world that they assume that their own personal preferences must hold true for everyone else
The irony of this statement is astounding.
posted by proj at 10:08 AM on May 6, 2010 [18 favorites]
The irony of this statement is astounding.
posted by proj at 10:08 AM on May 6, 2010 [18 favorites]
@6550 I'm starting to think my life is a Seinfield episode.
Or incredibly fucked up. It's hard to decide. :)
posted by stormpooper at 10:17 AM on May 6, 2010
Or incredibly fucked up. It's hard to decide. :)
posted by stormpooper at 10:17 AM on May 6, 2010
Asker sounds obnoxious and socially inept. Answers for most part are not. Question should stay.
posted by meehawl at 10:31 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by meehawl at 10:31 AM on May 6, 2010
Yeah, but for all your "I could go on and on" examples, I have like a bajillion more examples of times in my life when someone showed how they were different from others, and no one freaked out
I don't disagree. I can also come up with lots of examples of this. It doesn't change my point.
An overwhelming majority of the time, people are able to comfortably handle the otherness of people.
This is because (a) most people conform not societal norms, and (b) because most people are smart enough to hide aspects of themselves that don't.
If I went back to 1950s America and made the same argument I'm making here, that most people are intolerant of and lack-understanding-of all sorts of groups, and I used homosexuals as examples of a large sub-culture that most people don't even try to understand, there would be someone like you saying, "Yeah, but I can come up with plenty of counter-examples."
The Founding Fathers of the USA thought of themselves as very open-minded people, because they didn't discriminate (much) based on religious convictions. The ancient Romans were the same way. However, both groups kept slaves and didn't think of those slaves as fully human.
Every age has HUGE blindspots -- huge failures of mind-mapping -- and ours is no exception.
In my social group, it is a major faux pa to not make an attempt to understand gay people. It is NOT a major faux pa to forgo trying to understand Republicans. In fact, it's something of a faux pa to try. I would categorize my friends not as generally open-minded people who understand those who are different from them. Rather, they are people who are open-minded in the ways that my social circle expects people to be open minded.
You are failing understand what a sheltered life can do to people. That seems to be your blindspot.
posted by grumblebee at 10:32 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
I don't disagree. I can also come up with lots of examples of this. It doesn't change my point.
An overwhelming majority of the time, people are able to comfortably handle the otherness of people.
This is because (a) most people conform not societal norms, and (b) because most people are smart enough to hide aspects of themselves that don't.
If I went back to 1950s America and made the same argument I'm making here, that most people are intolerant of and lack-understanding-of all sorts of groups, and I used homosexuals as examples of a large sub-culture that most people don't even try to understand, there would be someone like you saying, "Yeah, but I can come up with plenty of counter-examples."
The Founding Fathers of the USA thought of themselves as very open-minded people, because they didn't discriminate (much) based on religious convictions. The ancient Romans were the same way. However, both groups kept slaves and didn't think of those slaves as fully human.
Every age has HUGE blindspots -- huge failures of mind-mapping -- and ours is no exception.
In my social group, it is a major faux pa to not make an attempt to understand gay people. It is NOT a major faux pa to forgo trying to understand Republicans. In fact, it's something of a faux pa to try. I would categorize my friends not as generally open-minded people who understand those who are different from them. Rather, they are people who are open-minded in the ways that my social circle expects people to be open minded.
You are failing understand what a sheltered life can do to people. That seems to be your blindspot.
posted by grumblebee at 10:32 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
but isn't point not that it's "no big whoop", but the specifics. Clearly you can understand the fact that your friend enjoys the song that you did not, but why does your friend like that song? You can tell that your friends enjoy the food that's spicier than you like, but why do they?
posted by patricio at 11:06 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by patricio at 11:06 AM on May 6, 2010
Yes, it's fine for me to have my point and you to have yours. But I think we have a fundamental disagreement (and that's fine).
To me, the fact that we both can come up with so many examples of people not freaking out over differences means to me that it's natural for differences to be no big whoop.
The fact that I can come up with so many counter-examples means to me that it's sometimes natural and it's sometimes not natural. And what's natural for one person may not be natural for another person.
Every day, I see examples of people bridging gaps.
Every day, I see examples of people totally failing to do so.
I don't see a strong trend towards understand or not understanding. What I do see is a strong trend of people being understanding of differences that their social group expects them to understand. And not being understand of differences that their social group doesn't care about.
posted by grumblebee at 11:07 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
To me, the fact that we both can come up with so many examples of people not freaking out over differences means to me that it's natural for differences to be no big whoop.
The fact that I can come up with so many counter-examples means to me that it's sometimes natural and it's sometimes not natural. And what's natural for one person may not be natural for another person.
Every day, I see examples of people bridging gaps.
Every day, I see examples of people totally failing to do so.
I don't see a strong trend towards understand or not understanding. What I do see is a strong trend of people being understanding of differences that their social group expects them to understand. And not being understand of differences that their social group doesn't care about.
posted by grumblebee at 11:07 AM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
a major faux pa
It's faux pas. It's French. Sorry, but the multiple mispellings bugged me.
posted by nooneyouknow at 11:10 AM on May 6, 2010
It's faux pas. It's French. Sorry, but the multiple mispellings bugged me.
posted by nooneyouknow at 11:10 AM on May 6, 2010
Thanks for the correction.
In other news: wow! Something really good just came out of that thread.
About midway through my gyn rotation (and associated ob rotation) I realised what the attraction was. Most of the branches of medicine are quite balkanised, either into specific patient-lite silos such as pathology or radiology, or located very specifically somewhere along a spectrum with "pure" surgery at one end, and "pure" medicine at the other. Ob-gyn is quite unique in that it blends both medicine and continuity of care with surgery and hands-on cutting. There are few other specialties that enable practitioners to become and stay experienced in both the medicine and the surgical aspects. You can both treat problems on an ongoing basis, or you can go for a definitive surgical fix. With ob-gyn these two aspects are intimately combined. Finally, the field of practice is sufficiently narrowly defined that a practitioner can train and become adept across the specialty without necessarily choosing to become super-specialised.
I just learned something.
posted by grumblebee at 11:12 AM on May 6, 2010
In other news: wow! Something really good just came out of that thread.
About midway through my gyn rotation (and associated ob rotation) I realised what the attraction was. Most of the branches of medicine are quite balkanised, either into specific patient-lite silos such as pathology or radiology, or located very specifically somewhere along a spectrum with "pure" surgery at one end, and "pure" medicine at the other. Ob-gyn is quite unique in that it blends both medicine and continuity of care with surgery and hands-on cutting. There are few other specialties that enable practitioners to become and stay experienced in both the medicine and the surgical aspects. You can both treat problems on an ongoing basis, or you can go for a definitive surgical fix. With ob-gyn these two aspects are intimately combined. Finally, the field of practice is sufficiently narrowly defined that a practitioner can train and become adept across the specialty without necessarily choosing to become super-specialised.
I just learned something.
posted by grumblebee at 11:12 AM on May 6, 2010
So after this is all over, you guys want to go for a picnic?
posted by yaymukund at 11:19 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by yaymukund at 11:19 AM on May 6, 2010
Why would anyone want to go on a picnic? To brag about it?
posted by grumblebee at 11:21 AM on May 6, 2010 [9 favorites]
posted by grumblebee at 11:21 AM on May 6, 2010 [9 favorites]
So after this is all over, you guys want to go for a picnic?
Egg salad? Crusts on or of? So many decisions and points of view...
posted by fixedgear at 11:24 AM on May 6, 2010
Egg salad? Crusts on or of? So many decisions and points of view...
posted by fixedgear at 11:24 AM on May 6, 2010
Seriously? Perhaps they care about eating good food with friends?
posted by yaymukund at 11:24 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by yaymukund at 11:24 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Tell you what: I'll go on the picnic as long as you don't invite any gynecologists.
posted by grumblebee at 11:25 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by grumblebee at 11:25 AM on May 6, 2010
What's up with picnickers? Why do they like eating off the ground like animals?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:29 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:29 AM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
What's up with picnickers? Why do they like eating off the ground like animals?
What exactly are you implying about women?
posted by grumblebee at 11:31 AM on May 6, 2010
What exactly are you implying about women?
posted by grumblebee at 11:31 AM on May 6, 2010
Picnickers are adults and therefore are not all like: "Vaginas!"
posted by yaymukund at 11:31 AM on May 6, 2010
posted by yaymukund at 11:31 AM on May 6, 2010
It really bothers me when people assume that "everyone knows" or "everyone thinks" or that everyone has patient, intelligent parents or teachers or friends to explain what "everyone" knows or thinks.
There's a first time to have this stuff explained. For some people, it's now. It's you doing the explaining.
It's you setting the example of how it will be explained to the next person in the chain.
I would like to favorite this a hundred times.
posted by thegreatfleecircus at 12:01 PM on May 6, 2010
> It's as if he watches a rerun of Seinfeld every Wednesday and finds it very profound.... The inevitable proctologist follow-up question next week should be interesting.
Million to one shot, Houyhnhnm. Million to one shot.
posted by mudpuppie at 12:07 PM on May 6, 2010
Million to one shot, Houyhnhnm. Million to one shot.
posted by mudpuppie at 12:07 PM on May 6, 2010
Newman!
posted by grumblebee at 12:26 PM on May 6, 2010
posted by grumblebee at 12:26 PM on May 6, 2010
Egg salad?
With relish? With celery? With Miracle Whip or mayo?
posted by jgirl at 1:17 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
With relish? With celery? With Miracle Whip or mayo?
posted by jgirl at 1:17 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Celery? Miracle Whip? In egg salad? It's pretty clear that you're either shamelessly trolling Metatalk or setting new standards for human cluelessness.
posted by Nothing... and like it at 1:52 PM on May 6, 2010
posted by Nothing... and like it at 1:52 PM on May 6, 2010
part of the issue, i think, is that some of us saw the original wording and some of us didn't. those that did are probably more likely to be reacting with a "WTF misogyny" than those who just saw the reposted question (which, like many others, i feel should have been rewritten more and maybe put up later). i understand and support not posting his email conversation with the mods, but i do wish the original wording of that question would get posted.
posted by nadawi at 1:55 PM on May 6, 2010
posted by nadawi at 1:55 PM on May 6, 2010
Man, fucking Miracle Whip. I saw a commercial on Hulu the other day and it was all like "mayo just tastes like...mayo" and I was all YES IT DOES, THAT'S WHAT IT'S FUCKING SUPPOSED TO TASTE LIKE. IT IS MAYO. IT IS AWESOME. GO FUCKING DRESS A SALAD OR SOMETHING.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:02 PM on May 6, 2010 [11 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:02 PM on May 6, 2010 [11 favorites]
You should try some low-fat mayo.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:03 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:03 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
alligatorman writes "I just looked at this, and it's really blowing my mind. Of the 17 questions he's asked, 13 were asked on the first day that he was allowed to. For 9 of those, the times between being allowed to ask and asking have been: 2 mins, 14 mins, 3 mins, 16 mins, 31 mins, 2 mins, 5 mins, 2 mins, 1 min.
"I'm impressed."
It's not hard to come up with a non, um, nefarious? reason for this consistency. Maybe that is when they arrive or leave work. Maybe it's when their kid takes a nap. Maybe it's the half hour between the news and Jeopardy. Maybe it's when the nightly coal train passes their house and wakes them up. Maybe they are killing time on a ferry on their weekly visit to their hospitalized grandmother. Maybe it's when the warden allows cell block 99-45j-01 access to the facilities computer. Or maybe they just have a cron job running that reminds them when to post their next question as has been recommend repeatedly in assorted Meta feature requests lately.
zarah writes "His question is the most misogynist thing I've seen on this site in years & I have to disagree with those saying it does no good to pile on this guy."
Not even close IMO. Probably not even in the top 100 though I imagine much of the _really_ offensive stuff has been deleted. That of course is the down side to deleting because of content: regardless of how bad the deleted comments are whatever is left is "the worst the users ever see" and acceptable comments end up defining the edge.
posted by Mitheral at 2:05 PM on May 6, 2010
"I'm impressed."
It's not hard to come up with a non, um, nefarious? reason for this consistency. Maybe that is when they arrive or leave work. Maybe it's when their kid takes a nap. Maybe it's the half hour between the news and Jeopardy. Maybe it's when the nightly coal train passes their house and wakes them up. Maybe they are killing time on a ferry on their weekly visit to their hospitalized grandmother. Maybe it's when the warden allows cell block 99-45j-01 access to the facilities computer. Or maybe they just have a cron job running that reminds them when to post their next question as has been recommend repeatedly in assorted Meta feature requests lately.
zarah writes "His question is the most misogynist thing I've seen on this site in years & I have to disagree with those saying it does no good to pile on this guy."
Not even close IMO. Probably not even in the top 100 though I imagine much of the _really_ offensive stuff has been deleted. That of course is the down side to deleting because of content: regardless of how bad the deleted comments are whatever is left is "the worst the users ever see" and acceptable comments end up defining the edge.
posted by Mitheral at 2:05 PM on May 6, 2010
But… but… those Miracle Whip commercials appeal to the edgy hipster demographic! Like when they're saying, "Mayo's real… real boring," you can almost hear the copy writers all going, "Ooh, burn. Ice burn," and high-fiving.
posted by klangklangston at 2:05 PM on May 6, 2010 [6 favorites]
posted by klangklangston at 2:05 PM on May 6, 2010 [6 favorites]
GO FUCKING DRESS A SALAD
AS A CLOWN! AND THEN HAVE SEX WITH IT!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:07 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
AS A CLOWN! AND THEN HAVE SEX WITH IT!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:07 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
if i knew it was going to be that kind of party!
wait? it's not?
um, you should probably stay away from the mashed potatoes.
posted by nadawi at 2:08 PM on May 6, 2010
wait? it's not?
um, you should probably stay away from the mashed potatoes.
posted by nadawi at 2:08 PM on May 6, 2010
Are we talkin' about salads and/.or sandwiches in here?
posted by The Whelk at 2:08 PM on May 6, 2010
posted by The Whelk at 2:08 PM on May 6, 2010
OH WAIT NO IT IS CLOWN SEX OH GOD THINK OF THE HONKING NOISES.
posted by The Whelk at 2:09 PM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 2:09 PM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
AS A CLOWN! AND THEN HAVE SEX WITH IT!
Oh cool, the weekend.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:16 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh cool, the weekend.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:16 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
You want to talk mayonnaise ads? You see the ones where they've, like, conjured about a half dozen ruggedly (but not overy!) handsome Regular Guys to stand in front of their Regular Jobs to wax about how they don't want any of that funny mayonnaise (Miracle Whip is clearly the unspoken, non-regular, mayonnaise that they are so bewildered by) - they just want to sit in front of the machine shop or bakery or whatever, and smile their crinkly, satisfied smiles while eating Regular Sandwiches with Regular Mayonnaise.
AND THE FUCKING COMMERCIAL IS FOR FUCKING LIGHT MAYONNAISE.
posted by dirtdirt at 2:18 PM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
AND THE FUCKING COMMERCIAL IS FOR FUCKING LIGHT MAYONNAISE.
posted by dirtdirt at 2:18 PM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Miracle Whip, eh? Makes me think of ZINGR!
Man, we were all totally wrong about that. It really took off.
posted by SpiffyRob at 2:23 PM on May 6, 2010
Man, we were all totally wrong about that. It really took off.
posted by SpiffyRob at 2:23 PM on May 6, 2010
AS A CLOWN! AND THEN HAVE SEX WITH IT!
It's Friday already in Europe, time for flash fun!
posted by Dumsnill at 2:24 PM on May 6, 2010
It's Friday already in Europe, time for flash fun!
posted by Dumsnill at 2:24 PM on May 6, 2010
> Is it more difficult for you to be aroused by your naked partner due to desensitisation? Would it be better if I asked in AskMe, what jobs experiences (rather than chemicals or work conditions) affect workers' ability to be aroused by their partners?
I've wondered this more about nudists.
> Some people don't understand context and framework for "truth"
This is great. I could listen to Feynman talk for hours.
posted by cj_ at 2:26 PM on May 6, 2010
I've wondered this more about nudists.
> Some people don't understand context and framework for "truth"
This is great. I could listen to Feynman talk for hours.
posted by cj_ at 2:26 PM on May 6, 2010
Is that a banana in your pocket or are you just happy see the clown with the jar of mayo?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:27 PM on May 6, 2010
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:27 PM on May 6, 2010
This is great. I could listen to Feynman talk for hours.
Yeah, I think it's aweome. Dude was brilliant, and I've watched it quite a few times since someone linked it in the ICP thread.
posted by P.o.B. at 2:42 PM on May 6, 2010
Yeah, I think it's aweome. Dude was brilliant, and I've watched it quite a few times since someone linked it in the ICP thread.
posted by P.o.B. at 2:42 PM on May 6, 2010
I'm partial to Mayostard. It kicks Mustardayonnaise's ass.
posted by Crane Shot at 3:09 PM on May 6, 2010
posted by Crane Shot at 3:09 PM on May 6, 2010
OH WAIT NO IT IS CLOWN SEX OH GOD THINK OF THE HONKING NOISES.
IT CAN'T BE ANY WORSE THAN HAVING SEX WITH HARPO MARX.
WHEN HE WAS ALIVE ANYWAY NOWADAYS HAVING SEX WITH HARPO MARX WOULD BE EITHER REALLY GROSS AND SPLORTCHY OR ALL BONEY AND OUCHY OR BOTH.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:17 PM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
IT CAN'T BE ANY WORSE THAN HAVING SEX WITH HARPO MARX.
WHEN HE WAS ALIVE ANYWAY NOWADAYS HAVING SEX WITH HARPO MARX WOULD BE EITHER REALLY GROSS AND SPLORTCHY OR ALL BONEY AND OUCHY OR BOTH.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:17 PM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
My white trash genes give me a deep secret love for Miracle Whip, but them trying to game on Cinco de Mayo was pathetic.
posted by klangklangston at 3:24 PM on May 6, 2010
posted by klangklangston at 3:24 PM on May 6, 2010
On the way home, I was reminded that pecans taste great in egg salad. Walnuts would be good.
A little mayo, a liitle brown mustard, and some pesto is really great!
posted by jgirl at 3:27 PM on May 6, 2010
A little mayo, a liitle brown mustard, and some pesto is really great!
posted by jgirl at 3:27 PM on May 6, 2010
The problem with egg salad is that it contains eggs, which are abhorrent and taste of death.
The proper mayonnaise based salads are tuna and chicken, preferably chicken. My mom makes this chicken salad with dried cherries that could kill you with its deliciousness.
Also: STOP LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT, MAYONNAISE IS A PERFECTLY CROMULENT FRENCH FRY CONDIMENT.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:03 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
The proper mayonnaise based salads are tuna and chicken, preferably chicken. My mom makes this chicken salad with dried cherries that could kill you with its deliciousness.
Also: STOP LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT, MAYONNAISE IS A PERFECTLY CROMULENT FRENCH FRY CONDIMENT.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:03 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
MAYONNAISE IS A PERFECTLY CROMULENT FRENCH FRY CONDIMENT.
I've worked with quite a few people who did not share this opinion. I'm sorry to say that these people have always angered me.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:38 PM on May 6, 2010
I've worked with quite a few people who did not share this opinion. I'm sorry to say that these people have always angered me.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:38 PM on May 6, 2010
I'm sorry to say that these people have always angered me.
They are an abomination unto all things deliciousness.
posted by elizardbits at 4:56 PM on May 6, 2010
They are an abomination unto all things deliciousness.
posted by elizardbits at 4:56 PM on May 6, 2010
I'm partial to Mayostard. It kicks Mustardayonnaise's ass.
Pass the Smoothaise!
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:10 PM on May 6, 2010
Pass the Smoothaise!
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:10 PM on May 6, 2010
Honestly, this was ALL handled great - both in the thread and this MetaTalk. I couldn't be happier with it, really. Thank you, Metafilter! We are years away from the first boyzone concerns, methinks.
posted by agregoli at 6:00 PM on May 6, 2010
posted by agregoli at 6:00 PM on May 6, 2010
Thanks babe!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:17 PM on May 6, 2010
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:17 PM on May 6, 2010
Honestly, Brandon, even though you're joking...given all the history? It honestly stung a bit.
posted by agregoli at 6:21 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by agregoli at 6:21 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
grapefruitmoon: The problem with egg salad is that it contains eggs, which are abhorrent and taste of death.
The proper mayonnaise based salads are tuna and chicken,...
Look up a recipe for mayonnaise, quick, hurry, hurry, this could get embarrassing (it isn't created in jars.).
posted by Some1 at 6:23 PM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
The proper mayonnaise based salads are tuna and chicken,...
Look up a recipe for mayonnaise, quick, hurry, hurry, this could get embarrassing (it isn't created in jars.).
posted by Some1 at 6:23 PM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
I apologize for the thoughtless joke then.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:40 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:40 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I just wanted to say that I agree with grumblebee 100%.
I grew up in a small town in Georgia. I knew a guy in high school who was genuinely excited about joining the KKK, and he wasn't evil. He was actually nice to me; we had boring but congenial conversations in "public speaking" class (reputed to be an easy 'A'). He just had no idea. He said horribly insensitive things all the time; I never corrected him (did you?). Add 10 years, marry him to a girl who suddenly informs him of the existence of "woman doctors", and he could be this guy. That's just one example.
My parents, for some reason I still don't understand, removed me from the "gifted" class in high school. Otherwise I'd probably never have talked with these guys.
There are real people out there with completely different inputs into their brains than most of the people I read posting here. I am delighted if one of them is caring, open, and inquisitive enough to ask potentially embarrassing questions and put up with all of this.
posted by amtho at 8:32 PM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
I grew up in a small town in Georgia. I knew a guy in high school who was genuinely excited about joining the KKK, and he wasn't evil. He was actually nice to me; we had boring but congenial conversations in "public speaking" class (reputed to be an easy 'A'). He just had no idea. He said horribly insensitive things all the time; I never corrected him (did you?). Add 10 years, marry him to a girl who suddenly informs him of the existence of "woman doctors", and he could be this guy. That's just one example.
My parents, for some reason I still don't understand, removed me from the "gifted" class in high school. Otherwise I'd probably never have talked with these guys.
There are real people out there with completely different inputs into their brains than most of the people I read posting here. I am delighted if one of them is caring, open, and inquisitive enough to ask potentially embarrassing questions and put up with all of this.
posted by amtho at 8:32 PM on May 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
As long as the subject of mayonnaise has come up, does anyone have any recommendations for mayos not based on canola or soy oils? (Maybe I should take this to AskMe...)
posted by Lexica at 8:41 PM on May 6, 2010
posted by Lexica at 8:41 PM on May 6, 2010
Man, fucking Miracle Whip.
Worst. Autobiography. Ever.
posted by MsMolly at 9:13 PM on May 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
Worst. Autobiography. Ever.
posted by MsMolly at 9:13 PM on May 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
Mayonaise is made with olive oil. period. I mean comon, if you're going to whisk something that much... OK, it's lots easier with a hand blender, but still you have to hold it up right for a long time.
You can also add garlic, lots of garlic, but then you have to be able to pronounce Aioli.
posted by Some1 at 9:23 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
You can also add garlic, lots of garlic, but then you have to be able to pronounce Aioli.
posted by Some1 at 9:23 PM on May 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
The only mayo brand I can find that doesn't have soy in it is a canola based one. Even the so called olive oil ones.
Whenever I think of Miracle Whip, I think of Sunny D. It's made to look like the real thing, but it's totally fakey and tastes funny.
posted by P.o.B. at 9:51 PM on May 6, 2010
Whenever I think of Miracle Whip, I think of Sunny D. It's made to look like the real thing, but it's totally fakey and tastes funny.
posted by P.o.B. at 9:51 PM on May 6, 2010
Like amtho, I am surprised at all the people expressing disbelief that someone could honestly be so offensively clueless.
23skidoo: It's unnatural for an adult to be so out of step with the world that they assume that their own personal preferences must hold true for everyone else. You don't need good parents, teachers or community members to have a television. Granted, it's not enough to learn you about everything you need to know, but it's enough to make reasonable people go "Hmmm, I guess there are all kinds of people in the world, many of whom are different from me."
Yeah, but there's a whole group of other people who would add "AND DIFFERENT FROM ME IS BAD" to the end of that sentence. Do I think they're reasonable? No, but I think they exist. Where I live, there is no shortage of people who would ask that gynecology question in earnest. I feel like I spend a lot of time trying to debunk people's weird beliefs. Maybe it's because I teach young adults who come from fairly sheltered backgrounds and haven't been exposed to a wide variety of viewpoints. And it doesn't really seem to matter that yes, they all have access to books, TV, newspapers, and the internet. It's surprisingly easy to remain ignorant even in this day and age if your parents, elders, and peers do not encourage (and maybe discourage) intellectual curiosity. So it's good, I think, for someone to point out to them that their views are ill-informed and unpalatable, and why.
Now that that's out of the way:
mayonnaise: awesome on french fries
Miracle Whip: gross and weird
aioli: like heaven (with or without the bathrooms)
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 10:45 PM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
23skidoo: It's unnatural for an adult to be so out of step with the world that they assume that their own personal preferences must hold true for everyone else. You don't need good parents, teachers or community members to have a television. Granted, it's not enough to learn you about everything you need to know, but it's enough to make reasonable people go "Hmmm, I guess there are all kinds of people in the world, many of whom are different from me."
Yeah, but there's a whole group of other people who would add "AND DIFFERENT FROM ME IS BAD" to the end of that sentence. Do I think they're reasonable? No, but I think they exist. Where I live, there is no shortage of people who would ask that gynecology question in earnest. I feel like I spend a lot of time trying to debunk people's weird beliefs. Maybe it's because I teach young adults who come from fairly sheltered backgrounds and haven't been exposed to a wide variety of viewpoints. And it doesn't really seem to matter that yes, they all have access to books, TV, newspapers, and the internet. It's surprisingly easy to remain ignorant even in this day and age if your parents, elders, and peers do not encourage (and maybe discourage) intellectual curiosity. So it's good, I think, for someone to point out to them that their views are ill-informed and unpalatable, and why.
Now that that's out of the way:
mayonnaise: awesome on french fries
Miracle Whip: gross and weird
aioli: like heaven (with or without the bathrooms)
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 10:45 PM on May 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
There are real people out there with completely different inputs into their brains than most of the people I read posting here.
Exactly! And they're everywhere including here in New Zealand. This guy is just someone who doesn't get outside his head very much, a phenomenon which is described quite nicely several times in the Discworld series, but at least he has an outlet to ask and possibly even be educated. I figure if a pretty popular well known TV series is mentioning how gynaecologists get hassled about what they do then there are likely to be plenty of people out there who have never thought about it beyond the obvious, knee jerk, surface reaction of lol vaginas. Fortunately I work in an industry where people tend to be pretty overly educated and my friends are the same so I'm not exposed to it much but actually, there are more idiots out there than there are thoughtful educated people like there are in here. Which is why I love it here. But pretending that this area of medicine is treated exactly the same as the others by the general public is just wrong, which is a decent part of why it's now so hard to find a decent 'female parts' doctor anywhere outside a city in New Zealand, not enough Doctors go into that speciality and those that do stick to the cities where they can earn money. Good luck finding someone to help you birth your baby if you live rurally here and don't plan right from the very start (or go to a city like my sister did).
And I kind of think that those people with a knee jerk offended 'how dare he think that' reaction are guilty of a similar issue, living inside their own head and expecting the world to run in the same way. Sadly it's a jungle out there and if you're offended by someone actually trying to change their world view then I'd hate to see how you react to those who don't care enough to even bother. (which, to be fair, they offend me too and this guy does need an attitude adjustment, but I deal with it by living in my ivory tower and pretending they don't exist).
posted by shelleycat at 11:56 PM on May 6, 2010
Exactly! And they're everywhere including here in New Zealand. This guy is just someone who doesn't get outside his head very much, a phenomenon which is described quite nicely several times in the Discworld series, but at least he has an outlet to ask and possibly even be educated. I figure if a pretty popular well known TV series is mentioning how gynaecologists get hassled about what they do then there are likely to be plenty of people out there who have never thought about it beyond the obvious, knee jerk, surface reaction of lol vaginas. Fortunately I work in an industry where people tend to be pretty overly educated and my friends are the same so I'm not exposed to it much but actually, there are more idiots out there than there are thoughtful educated people like there are in here. Which is why I love it here. But pretending that this area of medicine is treated exactly the same as the others by the general public is just wrong, which is a decent part of why it's now so hard to find a decent 'female parts' doctor anywhere outside a city in New Zealand, not enough Doctors go into that speciality and those that do stick to the cities where they can earn money. Good luck finding someone to help you birth your baby if you live rurally here and don't plan right from the very start (or go to a city like my sister did).
And I kind of think that those people with a knee jerk offended 'how dare he think that' reaction are guilty of a similar issue, living inside their own head and expecting the world to run in the same way. Sadly it's a jungle out there and if you're offended by someone actually trying to change their world view then I'd hate to see how you react to those who don't care enough to even bother. (which, to be fair, they offend me too and this guy does need an attitude adjustment, but I deal with it by living in my ivory tower and pretending they don't exist).
posted by shelleycat at 11:56 PM on May 6, 2010
It's really terrible that people were forced at gunpoint to answer this weird question. If only it had been deleted, we could have saved them from that horror!
Oh, wait....
posted by orthogonality at 12:59 AM on May 7, 2010
Oh, wait....
posted by orthogonality at 12:59 AM on May 7, 2010
CRUNCHY TUNA SALAD OF AWESOME WHICH MAY ALSO BE ADAPTED TO EGG, SALMON OR CHICKEN SALADS REALLY WHATEVER YOU LIKE BUT YOU SHOULD TOTALLY DO THIS:
Cans of tuna AND/OR canned salmon. Or both. Generally about 4-6 cans for a batch. Or equivalent amount of eggs, or fried or scambled tofu, or chicken. Whatever. Go crazy.
Real mayo. (Or fake veganaise or whatever. Use your favorite.)
Mustards - Brown, spicy, dijon. None of that anemic yellow crap.
Sweet relish to taste - required.
Freshly ground black pepper. Lots.
Salt is generally not required, but optional.
Fresh garlic to taste - not pressed. Sliced or minced.
Onions, about half an onion or more depending on batch size - I like red onions, but feel free to try it with sweets or browns. About a cup, diced.
Green onions - diced. About a dozen stalks, or a cup of diced green onions.
Celery - sliced thin crosswise - optional but recommended. Splurge for organic stuff, not that bright green franken-celery. About 3 stalks.
You with me so far? Here comes the awesome.
One tart green apple, like a granny smith or pippen - NOT OPTIONAL AT ALL. No, seriously, try it. This is the most important ingredient and the secret sauce. This is diced/cubed into about the size of celery slices. Leave the skin on. The younger the apple and the more tart the better. We're not looking for some mushy, flavorless apple here - you want something crisp and almost too tart to eat straight. Crabapples would be pushing it, though. About 1 cup, diced.
Optional ingredients - Surimi (fake crab), real crab, shredded coleslaw style cabbage (highly recommended), shredded carrot, smoked salmon bits, pecans, walnuts, dried cranberry bits (diced fine), a small handful of diced dates or other dried fruit like apricot. Experiment.
Blend prepared veggies and apple with tuna, salmon or eggs or meat substitute in a large bowl.
Begin adding mayo, but not too much. You can add more later if needed.
Add mustard or mustards. About 2-6 tablespoons or to taste, depending on the size of the batch. You want enough that it has some kick.
Add sweet relish. About 2-4 tablespoons or to taste. The sweet relish goes in and wrestles with the diced tart apple and formally introduces it to everything else, and then they all go to Burning Man and end up sleeping together and it's actually not awkward after.
Add black pepper. Lots and lots. I'm always surprised at how much black pepper I end up using. Generally a couple of tablespoons or more.
What you end up with is something that's about half vegetable matter and half tuna (or meat substitute) with a thick but not gloopy coating of the liquid stuff. It's crisp, tangy, tart and the apple is REALLY FUCKING GOOD in this. Trust me.
Spoon over toasted wheat or sourdough bread. A layer of baby spinach or lettuce is optional. A little shredded cheese or parma is good, too. Or eat it on crackers, or pita. Or straight. It doesn't matter, but on freshly toasted bread it's fantastic.
Eat. It's even better the next day after sitting in the fridge, but it rarely lasts very long, which is why I make it in huge batches because otherwise I get maybe one sandwich out of it before friends/roommates eat all of it.
posted by loquacious at 2:34 AM on May 7, 2010 [60 favorites]
Cans of tuna AND/OR canned salmon. Or both. Generally about 4-6 cans for a batch. Or equivalent amount of eggs, or fried or scambled tofu, or chicken. Whatever. Go crazy.
Real mayo. (Or fake veganaise or whatever. Use your favorite.)
Mustards - Brown, spicy, dijon. None of that anemic yellow crap.
Sweet relish to taste - required.
Freshly ground black pepper. Lots.
Salt is generally not required, but optional.
Fresh garlic to taste - not pressed. Sliced or minced.
Onions, about half an onion or more depending on batch size - I like red onions, but feel free to try it with sweets or browns. About a cup, diced.
Green onions - diced. About a dozen stalks, or a cup of diced green onions.
Celery - sliced thin crosswise - optional but recommended. Splurge for organic stuff, not that bright green franken-celery. About 3 stalks.
You with me so far? Here comes the awesome.
One tart green apple, like a granny smith or pippen - NOT OPTIONAL AT ALL. No, seriously, try it. This is the most important ingredient and the secret sauce. This is diced/cubed into about the size of celery slices. Leave the skin on. The younger the apple and the more tart the better. We're not looking for some mushy, flavorless apple here - you want something crisp and almost too tart to eat straight. Crabapples would be pushing it, though. About 1 cup, diced.
Optional ingredients - Surimi (fake crab), real crab, shredded coleslaw style cabbage (highly recommended), shredded carrot, smoked salmon bits, pecans, walnuts, dried cranberry bits (diced fine), a small handful of diced dates or other dried fruit like apricot. Experiment.
Blend prepared veggies and apple with tuna, salmon or eggs or meat substitute in a large bowl.
Begin adding mayo, but not too much. You can add more later if needed.
Add mustard or mustards. About 2-6 tablespoons or to taste, depending on the size of the batch. You want enough that it has some kick.
Add sweet relish. About 2-4 tablespoons or to taste. The sweet relish goes in and wrestles with the diced tart apple and formally introduces it to everything else, and then they all go to Burning Man and end up sleeping together and it's actually not awkward after.
Add black pepper. Lots and lots. I'm always surprised at how much black pepper I end up using. Generally a couple of tablespoons or more.
What you end up with is something that's about half vegetable matter and half tuna (or meat substitute) with a thick but not gloopy coating of the liquid stuff. It's crisp, tangy, tart and the apple is REALLY FUCKING GOOD in this. Trust me.
Spoon over toasted wheat or sourdough bread. A layer of baby spinach or lettuce is optional. A little shredded cheese or parma is good, too. Or eat it on crackers, or pita. Or straight. It doesn't matter, but on freshly toasted bread it's fantastic.
Eat. It's even better the next day after sitting in the fridge, but it rarely lasts very long, which is why I make it in huge batches because otherwise I get maybe one sandwich out of it before friends/roommates eat all of it.
posted by loquacious at 2:34 AM on May 7, 2010 [60 favorites]
What you end up with is something that's about half vegetable matter and half tuna (or meat substitute) with a thick but not gloopy coating of the liquid stuff. It's crisp, tangy, tart and the apple is REALLY FUCKING GOOD in this. Trust me.
I only read MeTa for the recipes, you know. Nobody writes recipes like mefites do at the tail end of some harrowing argument.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:40 AM on May 7, 2010 [10 favorites]
I only read MeTa for the recipes, you know. Nobody writes recipes like mefites do at the tail end of some harrowing argument.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:40 AM on May 7, 2010 [10 favorites]
It's like we're grabbing you by the collar and screaming "OLIVES AND TOMATOES! OLIVE AND FUCKING TO-MA-TOES" while things explode.
posted by The Whelk at 5:49 AM on May 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 5:49 AM on May 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
Worst. Autobiography. Ever.
Man Fucks Miracle Whip: No story.
Miracle Whip Fucks Man: Pulitzer. Also what happens in Soviet Russia.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:15 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Man Fucks Miracle Whip: No story.
Miracle Whip Fucks Man: Pulitzer. Also what happens in Soviet Russia.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:15 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
They look at women's vaginas all day.
Gaze not too deeply into the Vagina, lest the Vagina gaze into thee.
posted by fish tick at 6:55 AM on May 7, 2010
Gaze not too deeply into the Vagina, lest the Vagina gaze into thee.
posted by fish tick at 6:55 AM on May 7, 2010
Why would a person fuck Miracle Whip? Do they brag about it? Are they embarassed? Why don't they fuck a more respectable condiment?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:34 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:34 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
At least with Miracle Whip, you'd get consistency. There are enough variations of Barbecue Sauce, Honey Mustard, Ketchup, Jam, Jelly, Peanut Butter, Almond Butter, and so forth, that it'd be like you didn't even know your lover.
Yes, they're capitalized because once you fuck them, they become people. What about it?
posted by SpiffyRob at 7:52 AM on May 7, 2010
Yes, they're capitalized because once you fuck them, they become people. What about it?
posted by SpiffyRob at 7:52 AM on May 7, 2010
Yes, they're capitalized because once you fuck them, they become people. What about it?
Best creation myth ever.
posted by lore at 7:59 AM on May 7, 2010 [5 favorites]
Best creation myth ever.
posted by lore at 7:59 AM on May 7, 2010 [5 favorites]
Even though I am not opposed to leather, I am retroactively horrified to find out that "handling with kid gloves" refers to baby goat leather. I always assumed it just meant being gentle, as if you were dealing with a child.
posted by Riki tiki at 8:17 AM on May 7, 2010
posted by Riki tiki at 8:17 AM on May 7, 2010
It's unnatural for an adult to be so out of step with the world that they assume that their own personal preferences must hold true for everyone else. You don't need good parents, teachers or community members to have a television. Granted, it's not enough to learn you about everything you need to know, but it's enough to make reasonable people go "Hmmm, I guess there are all kinds of people in the world, many of whom are different from me."
Sorry, I'm not convinced that TV teaches everyone the rules of how to navigate the real world and the nuanced, complicated, and unfathomable people that inhabit it. Nor does it teach people that their personal preferences are just that- not the laws of how and why other people behave. If you can't figure out how someone with access to a TV can't understand all the infinite reasons why people do stuff, you're just as guilty of a sheltered world view. Not everyone is going to watch the shows you do. Not everyone is going to grow up in a country that has the same values you do. Not everyone is going to interpret what goes on on the screen in the same way you do, because their values and culture and relationships color those interpretations.
I'm always surprised that there are people here that show up and declare people to be trolls, or fake, or making it up, or unreal in some other way because they've never had experience in real life with those people. Yet I'm sure many of these same people have had television in their lives. It doesn't stop them from declaring that a 14 year-old-mefite must really be an adult, because they've apparently never run across a smart and literate 14 year old. Or deciding that people who behave like xteraco did spent months setting up profiles across the internet in order to troll MetaFilter, because they can't believe some deluded bozo would spend a bunch of his girlfriend's money souping up a worthless car. Or announcing that a woman with an abusive boyfriend must be posting here for the drama. Really, it makes me think that there are many more people than I suspected that need to turn off their television and get out into the real world and gain some street smarts.
As far as this Abbat dude goes, he reminds me of young men I have known that came from very sheltered, rather wealthy, non-English speaking families. All their TV time growing up was spent watching football/soccer, so you might possibly be able to imagine how much they didn't learn about gynecologists and corner stores that medium. One of them was an economics graduate from Stanford, so he clearly wasn't stupid- just didn't know a goddamn thing about the real world. Believe me, he was quite familiar with television.
posted by oneirodynia at 8:20 AM on May 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
Sorry, I'm not convinced that TV teaches everyone the rules of how to navigate the real world and the nuanced, complicated, and unfathomable people that inhabit it. Nor does it teach people that their personal preferences are just that- not the laws of how and why other people behave. If you can't figure out how someone with access to a TV can't understand all the infinite reasons why people do stuff, you're just as guilty of a sheltered world view. Not everyone is going to watch the shows you do. Not everyone is going to grow up in a country that has the same values you do. Not everyone is going to interpret what goes on on the screen in the same way you do, because their values and culture and relationships color those interpretations.
I'm always surprised that there are people here that show up and declare people to be trolls, or fake, or making it up, or unreal in some other way because they've never had experience in real life with those people. Yet I'm sure many of these same people have had television in their lives. It doesn't stop them from declaring that a 14 year-old-mefite must really be an adult, because they've apparently never run across a smart and literate 14 year old. Or deciding that people who behave like xteraco did spent months setting up profiles across the internet in order to troll MetaFilter, because they can't believe some deluded bozo would spend a bunch of his girlfriend's money souping up a worthless car. Or announcing that a woman with an abusive boyfriend must be posting here for the drama. Really, it makes me think that there are many more people than I suspected that need to turn off their television and get out into the real world and gain some street smarts.
As far as this Abbat dude goes, he reminds me of young men I have known that came from very sheltered, rather wealthy, non-English speaking families. All their TV time growing up was spent watching football/soccer, so you might possibly be able to imagine how much they didn't learn about gynecologists and corner stores that medium. One of them was an economics graduate from Stanford, so he clearly wasn't stupid- just didn't know a goddamn thing about the real world. Believe me, he was quite familiar with television.
posted by oneirodynia at 8:20 AM on May 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
Even though I am not opposed to leather, I am retroactively horrified to find out that "handling with kid gloves" refers to baby goat leather. I always assumed it just meant being gentle, as if you were dealing with a child.
You have reminded me to again check for the origin of my favourite mystery phrase, and finally (it has been awhile) I see a possible answer:
Hell bent for leather seems to be a very recent usage in which two phrases: hell-bent and hell for leather have been run together. The bent in hell-bent means "determined" or "resolute", as in "bent on revenge", so hell-bent means "intent on going to hell".
Hell for leather, on the other hand, means "fast". It occurs twice (1889, 1893) in Kipling's stories of the British Army in India. In both cases it refers to horse-riding and leather probably refers to the saddle. It may have originated as Army slang or it could possibly have been one of Kipling's inventions.
For the meaning, we can only suggest that you ask the next person who uses it in conversation with you. It is understood to mean "as fast as possible", having retained the meaning of hell for leather with the extraneous bent.
Sadly, nothing found for Hell bent for Miracle Whip.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:26 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
You have reminded me to again check for the origin of my favourite mystery phrase, and finally (it has been awhile) I see a possible answer:
Hell bent for leather seems to be a very recent usage in which two phrases: hell-bent and hell for leather have been run together. The bent in hell-bent means "determined" or "resolute", as in "bent on revenge", so hell-bent means "intent on going to hell".
Hell for leather, on the other hand, means "fast". It occurs twice (1889, 1893) in Kipling's stories of the British Army in India. In both cases it refers to horse-riding and leather probably refers to the saddle. It may have originated as Army slang or it could possibly have been one of Kipling's inventions.
For the meaning, we can only suggest that you ask the next person who uses it in conversation with you. It is understood to mean "as fast as possible", having retained the meaning of hell for leather with the extraneous bent.
Sadly, nothing found for Hell bent for Miracle Whip.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:26 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
The bent in hell-bent means "determined" or "resolute", as in "bent on revenge", so hell-bent means "intent on going to hell".
Is there a cite for the conclusion of that sentence? I can see that read (e.g. if "hell-bent" originated as a morally charged accusation) but I'd always taken "hell-bent" as more referring to general recklessness or intensity, a "run like hell" analogue say, than saying anything about the moral character of the actor's soul.
I guess a grimmer sort of take on morality and eternal judgement would reckon most folks headed for hell by default, and so being reckless would just be speeding up that process in any case? I dunno, you've piqued my curiosity.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:36 AM on May 7, 2010
Is there a cite for the conclusion of that sentence? I can see that read (e.g. if "hell-bent" originated as a morally charged accusation) but I'd always taken "hell-bent" as more referring to general recklessness or intensity, a "run like hell" analogue say, than saying anything about the moral character of the actor's soul.
I guess a grimmer sort of take on morality and eternal judgement would reckon most folks headed for hell by default, and so being reckless would just be speeding up that process in any case? I dunno, you've piqued my curiosity.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:36 AM on May 7, 2010
Hmm. I find general agreement on hell for leather -- though different explanations connecting the origin to the meaning. But hell-bent, not so much. Here's another offering:
To have a bent is to be determined, as in bent on doing something. Hell is often used in terms associated with high speed and determination (e.g.. "go like hell", "running like hell"). "Hell bent" means to be highly or stubbornly determined.
Alternatives to the full phrase as well, either a reckless animal, or reckless use of an animal, either leading to eventual demise and use as a leather good.
But these are far from official sources. Be delighted if someone had something more authoritative.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:42 AM on May 7, 2010
To have a bent is to be determined, as in bent on doing something. Hell is often used in terms associated with high speed and determination (e.g.. "go like hell", "running like hell"). "Hell bent" means to be highly or stubbornly determined.
Alternatives to the full phrase as well, either a reckless animal, or reckless use of an animal, either leading to eventual demise and use as a leather good.
But these are far from official sources. Be delighted if someone had something more authoritative.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 8:42 AM on May 7, 2010
At least with Miracle Whip, you'd get consistency. There are enough variations of Barbecue Sauce, Honey Mustard, Ketchup, Jam, Jelly, Peanut Butter, Almond Butter, and so forth, that it'd be like you didn't even know your lover.
See also.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:08 AM on May 7, 2010
See also.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 10:08 AM on May 7, 2010
Heh, when I saw you had linked to a condiment-related Calvin and Hobbes, I just assumed it would be this one. That seems to be a little more on-message, I think.
posted by SpiffyRob at 10:32 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by SpiffyRob at 10:32 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Finally, a thread to wear my "Made in Vagina" t-shirt into.
I'm not convinced that TV teaches everyone the rules of how to navigate the real world and the nuanced, complicated, and unfathomable people that inhabit it.
I thought the point wasn't that TV taught how to deal, so much as exposed one to the facts of difference. That we have hundreds of channels, all with something different on them, should be enough to at least expose one to the idea that other people are different, even if you can't figure them out. I will never understand people who watch American Idol--to me, it's like karaoke where you never get a turn, and the bartender makes you get your own drinks--but I'm aware that the show is popular with somebody, lots of somebodies. I can't claim ignorance of their existence, any more than I can claim ignorance of fishing and hunting show fans.
posted by nomisxid at 11:20 AM on May 7, 2010
I'm not convinced that TV teaches everyone the rules of how to navigate the real world and the nuanced, complicated, and unfathomable people that inhabit it.
I thought the point wasn't that TV taught how to deal, so much as exposed one to the facts of difference. That we have hundreds of channels, all with something different on them, should be enough to at least expose one to the idea that other people are different, even if you can't figure them out. I will never understand people who watch American Idol--to me, it's like karaoke where you never get a turn, and the bartender makes you get your own drinks--but I'm aware that the show is popular with somebody, lots of somebodies. I can't claim ignorance of their existence, any more than I can claim ignorance of fishing and hunting show fans.
posted by nomisxid at 11:20 AM on May 7, 2010
People, people. Homemade mayo is easy as all heck, and you can just make as much as you need.
posted by desuetude at 11:26 AM on May 7, 2010
posted by desuetude at 11:26 AM on May 7, 2010
Mayonnaise, like salad dressing and love, is probably one of those things that can't be bought in any satisfactory fashion.
posted by stet at 11:49 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by stet at 11:49 AM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
The Hell-Bound Train (Those Poor Bastards: YouTube).
posted by languagehat at 12:36 PM on May 7, 2010
posted by languagehat at 12:36 PM on May 7, 2010
I thought the point wasn't that TV taught how to deal, so much as exposed one to the facts of difference.
Are you serious?
It's not about "the idea" that other people are different. You don't really GET that other people are different -- you don't get it in your gut -- until you've been exposed to people who really ARE different. And one or two exposures won't do it, either. You need years of immersion in a world in which you regularly run into people who are different from you.
From what I've seen, the fact that someone finally accepts homosexuals or female CEOs or something does not translate into general acceptance or understanding. I have gay friends who hate bisexuals.
I get hundreds of channels. I flip through them and see the same people over and over and over. (In the US, in most places, you don't get channels from other countries -- unless maybe you have satellite or something.)
I almost never see an atheist. I almost never see anyone in a sexual relationship that is any more "non-standard" than gay. I almost never hear anyone seriously discussing religion. I hear nothing about politics. (Of course, "I do" if I watch news and commentary programs, but I don't, and a LOT of people with TVs just use them as I do, to watch entertainments.) I see very little about other cultures. I see very little about a lot of "other cultures" in the US (e.g. where I live, in the North East, the Southern US might as well be another country. I see very little TV that mentions it exists.) I see very few impoverished people. I see very few old people, unless they are distinguished in some way. Etc.
The general idea I would get, if I got my ideas about the world from the TV I watch, is that the world is mostly full of good looking, young-to-middle-aged, middle-class-to-rich people who are moderate in all things.
Oh, by the way, what channel should I turn to if I want to see a show about a gynecologist?
Here are some people I've known:
- One of my friends is Mr. Exotic World. He's a burlesque dancer who won his title in Vegas and now travels around the world, performing.
- A transsexual.
- A straight man and a gay man who lived together for years, in something like a marriage, except that there was no sex involved.
- a 30-something man married to a 70-something woman.
- A skinny gay man who is mostly attracted to morbidly obese men.
- people who fast for religious reasons.
- A furry.
- A couple who are swingers.
- A druid.
- A woman who raped another woman.
What channel are they on? (Yeah, I know, Jerry Springer. But that show doesn't depict reality, and none of the people I've met act like the folks on that show.)
posted by grumblebee at 12:49 PM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Are you serious?
It's not about "the idea" that other people are different. You don't really GET that other people are different -- you don't get it in your gut -- until you've been exposed to people who really ARE different. And one or two exposures won't do it, either. You need years of immersion in a world in which you regularly run into people who are different from you.
From what I've seen, the fact that someone finally accepts homosexuals or female CEOs or something does not translate into general acceptance or understanding. I have gay friends who hate bisexuals.
I get hundreds of channels. I flip through them and see the same people over and over and over. (In the US, in most places, you don't get channels from other countries -- unless maybe you have satellite or something.)
I almost never see an atheist. I almost never see anyone in a sexual relationship that is any more "non-standard" than gay. I almost never hear anyone seriously discussing religion. I hear nothing about politics. (Of course, "I do" if I watch news and commentary programs, but I don't, and a LOT of people with TVs just use them as I do, to watch entertainments.) I see very little about other cultures. I see very little about a lot of "other cultures" in the US (e.g. where I live, in the North East, the Southern US might as well be another country. I see very little TV that mentions it exists.) I see very few impoverished people. I see very few old people, unless they are distinguished in some way. Etc.
The general idea I would get, if I got my ideas about the world from the TV I watch, is that the world is mostly full of good looking, young-to-middle-aged, middle-class-to-rich people who are moderate in all things.
Oh, by the way, what channel should I turn to if I want to see a show about a gynecologist?
Here are some people I've known:
- One of my friends is Mr. Exotic World. He's a burlesque dancer who won his title in Vegas and now travels around the world, performing.
- A transsexual.
- A straight man and a gay man who lived together for years, in something like a marriage, except that there was no sex involved.
- a 30-something man married to a 70-something woman.
- A skinny gay man who is mostly attracted to morbidly obese men.
- people who fast for religious reasons.
- A furry.
- A couple who are swingers.
- A druid.
- A woman who raped another woman.
What channel are they on? (Yeah, I know, Jerry Springer. But that show doesn't depict reality, and none of the people I've met act like the folks on that show.)
posted by grumblebee at 12:49 PM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
[...] so hell-bent means "intent on going to hell".
It's more of a "come hell or high water" usage -- nothing, not even hell itself, will deter someone hell-bent. The Word Detective discusses this at least twice, once in 1996:
Of the two sayings, “hell bent,” meaning “recklessly determined,” is the more common today, and has been popular since the early 19th century, describing someone who is prepared to go “to the gates of hell” in pursuit of a goal.
And a bit further in 2009:
“Bent,” an adjective formed from the verb “to bend,” is here used in the sense of “directed on a course” with implications of “determined, resolute.” Put together, “hell bent” (sometimes spelled as one word, “hellbent”) has, since the early 18th century, meant “recklessly determined to do something at any cost; doggedly determined.” It’s a bit unclear whether the original sense was “willing (and possibly likely) to go to hell to achieve one’s goal” or just “really, really determined,” but the bottom line is that it’s best not to interfere with someone “hell bent” on anything (”I know your kind — hell-bent to spend what you cash in,” 1910).
Also, there's a bit of discussion of the entire phrase at www.theanswerbank.co.uk
posted by Tuesday After Lunch at 2:25 PM on May 7, 2010
It's more of a "come hell or high water" usage -- nothing, not even hell itself, will deter someone hell-bent. The Word Detective discusses this at least twice, once in 1996:
Of the two sayings, “hell bent,” meaning “recklessly determined,” is the more common today, and has been popular since the early 19th century, describing someone who is prepared to go “to the gates of hell” in pursuit of a goal.
And a bit further in 2009:
“Bent,” an adjective formed from the verb “to bend,” is here used in the sense of “directed on a course” with implications of “determined, resolute.” Put together, “hell bent” (sometimes spelled as one word, “hellbent”) has, since the early 18th century, meant “recklessly determined to do something at any cost; doggedly determined.” It’s a bit unclear whether the original sense was “willing (and possibly likely) to go to hell to achieve one’s goal” or just “really, really determined,” but the bottom line is that it’s best not to interfere with someone “hell bent” on anything (”I know your kind — hell-bent to spend what you cash in,” 1910).
Also, there's a bit of discussion of the entire phrase at www.theanswerbank.co.uk
posted by Tuesday After Lunch at 2:25 PM on May 7, 2010
That makes more sense. I'd love to stumble on a tie to Orpheus and Eurydice, but haven't seen even the suggestion of it.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:59 PM on May 7, 2010
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 3:59 PM on May 7, 2010
Loquacious- OMG apples in tuna is my favorite thing ever. My mom did it all the time when I was a kid and I thought we were the only ones who knew about this magic, and I am so happy that that joy is being spread among the world of internets.
posted by NoraReed at 4:09 PM on May 7, 2010
posted by NoraReed at 4:09 PM on May 7, 2010
I also do the granny smith apples in tuna salad but never used relish, which you seem to suggest is the pee on this particular culinary rug. Will give that a try.
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 4:14 PM on May 7, 2010
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 4:14 PM on May 7, 2010
I actually discovered the apples-in-tuna-salad thing accidentally because I didn't have any celery. I was very happy to discover that one. Shredded cabbage is also great for extra crunchy-cool goodness, considering cole slaw is a close cousin to tuna salad.
Yeah, the sweet relish is good. I know a lot of people hate it but the sweet-tart really does work well with the apple and everything else.
(Also, I meant to note that I was very pleased that a user named "omnomnom" was the first to favorite the tuna salad recipe. Awesome.)
posted by loquacious at 6:07 PM on May 7, 2010
Yeah, the sweet relish is good. I know a lot of people hate it but the sweet-tart really does work well with the apple and everything else.
(Also, I meant to note that I was very pleased that a user named "omnomnom" was the first to favorite the tuna salad recipe. Awesome.)
posted by loquacious at 6:07 PM on May 7, 2010
"It's like we're grabbing you by the collar and screaming "OLIVES AND TOMATOES! OLIVE AND FUCKING TO-MA-TOES" while things explode."
I want a cooking show like this.
posted by klangklangston at 7:08 PM on May 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
I want a cooking show like this.
posted by klangklangston at 7:08 PM on May 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
If you saute the celery, it mellows out the texture and flavor and is sooooo much better.
posted by desuetude at 7:32 PM on May 7, 2010
posted by desuetude at 7:32 PM on May 7, 2010
I actually discovered the apples-in-tuna-salad thing accidentally because I didn't have any celery.
I, a California kid who's rarely met a vegetable or fruit she didn't like and who LOVES fruit in anything, am married to someone who hates both celery and fruit-in-savory-dishes. This discussion is killing me. (Not the gynecology part, I mean.) Thank goodness he's about to go out of town for work for a week and a half — it's going to be Festival Of Green And Crunchy Stuff in my kitchen the whole time.
posted by Lexica at 9:46 PM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I, a California kid who's rarely met a vegetable or fruit she didn't like and who LOVES fruit in anything, am married to someone who hates both celery and fruit-in-savory-dishes. This discussion is killing me. (Not the gynecology part, I mean.) Thank goodness he's about to go out of town for work for a week and a half — it's going to be Festival Of Green And Crunchy Stuff in my kitchen the whole time.
posted by Lexica at 9:46 PM on May 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
(Also, I meant to note that I was very pleased that a user named "omnomnom" was the first to favorite the tuna salad recipe. Awesome.)
Hehe, I don't have that username for nothing!
Desuetude, I just stir fried a bunch of celery stalks because I wasn't sure what to do with them.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:35 AM on May 8, 2010
Hehe, I don't have that username for nothing!
Desuetude, I just stir fried a bunch of celery stalks because I wasn't sure what to do with them.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:35 AM on May 8, 2010
Today at work, we were sold a book called (I am NOT kidding) "Faith-Based Fitness." I can only assume that it contains a 'Prayer for Pectorals,' or something.
Also, at 7-11, I found a bag of these. The peak of civilization is happening right now, yo.
posted by jonmc at 4:52 PM on May 8, 2010
Also, at 7-11, I found a bag of these. The peak of civilization is happening right now, yo.
posted by jonmc at 4:52 PM on May 8, 2010
You and Ren.
posted by jonmc at 6:26 PM on May 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 6:26 PM on May 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
Side question - how does going to a gyn work in the US? In the UK, on the NHS at least, you see your GP first and they refer you to one if they feel you need a specialist opinion - can you see one in the US without this referral? Aside from sexual health clinics I attended in my teens, I've only seen one once or twice. I don't even think the person who inserted my IUD had 'gynaecologist' in their title - you can have it done at a GP surgery sometimes.
posted by mippy at 10:32 AM on May 9, 2010
posted by mippy at 10:32 AM on May 9, 2010
mippy -
there might be some insurance company that requires a referral for a gynecologist, but i'd be surprised. most insurance plans cover one gynecologist visit a year for the pap smear and general female wellness (unless you're pregnant, of course in which case OBGYN would be covered under prenatal parts of the plan). if you're uninsured, then you just call up the gynecologist and set up an appointment, certainly no referral needed.
posted by nadawi at 12:19 PM on May 9, 2010
there might be some insurance company that requires a referral for a gynecologist, but i'd be surprised. most insurance plans cover one gynecologist visit a year for the pap smear and general female wellness (unless you're pregnant, of course in which case OBGYN would be covered under prenatal parts of the plan). if you're uninsured, then you just call up the gynecologist and set up an appointment, certainly no referral needed.
posted by nadawi at 12:19 PM on May 9, 2010
mippy, gyn's tend to be officially excepted from requiring a referral.
posted by desuetude at 2:38 PM on May 9, 2010
posted by desuetude at 2:38 PM on May 9, 2010
loquacious writes "CRUNCHY TUNA SALAD OF AWESOME WHICH MAY ALSO BE ADAPTED TO EGG, SALMON OR CHICKEN SALADS REALLY WHATEVER YOU LIKE BUT YOU SHOULD TOTALLY DO THIS:"
Tried this out last night; it's pretty good.
posted by Mitheral at 7:20 AM on May 10, 2010
Tried this out last night; it's pretty good.
posted by Mitheral at 7:20 AM on May 10, 2010
I hate to re-rail this thread, but WTF? I am not sure which question is more offensive, the gyn one or this one.
posted by amro at 4:07 PM on May 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by amro at 4:07 PM on May 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
Gah, is it Wednesday evening already?
posted by Some1 at 4:15 PM on May 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Some1 at 4:15 PM on May 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
Geez, where did the week go?
posted by box at 4:25 PM on May 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by box at 4:25 PM on May 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
I am not sure which question is more offensive, the gyn one or this one.
Yeah, there's a new metatalk thread for that one.
posted by shelleycat at 6:50 PM on May 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yeah, there's a new metatalk thread for that one.
posted by shelleycat at 6:50 PM on May 12, 2010 [1 favorite]
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posted by proj at 4:41 PM on May 5, 2010