Should there be a Mefi "canon"? August 7, 2002 7:07 PM Subscribe
Should there be a Mefi "canon"?
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To elaborate on yhbc's comment:
My canon is completely different from yours, and I'd bet so is almost everyone else's in some way or another. I never read Salon, Slate, or any of the other sites you mention unless they're linked to from MeFi or another blog. I simply don't have the time to skim all those sites for the stories I'd be interested in -- hence my reliance on MetaFilter. If creating a MeFi canon would limit the stories from those sources (and others) posted here, I'm completely against it.
posted by me3dia at 7:23 PM on August 7, 2002
My canon is completely different from yours, and I'd bet so is almost everyone else's in some way or another. I never read Salon, Slate, or any of the other sites you mention unless they're linked to from MeFi or another blog. I simply don't have the time to skim all those sites for the stories I'd be interested in -- hence my reliance on MetaFilter. If creating a MeFi canon would limit the stories from those sources (and others) posted here, I'm completely against it.
posted by me3dia at 7:23 PM on August 7, 2002
To clarify, I wholeheartedly agree with your complaint about front page posts that regurgitate the linked article with no new thought, but a canon won't stop that from happening.
posted by me3dia at 7:25 PM on August 7, 2002
posted by me3dia at 7:25 PM on August 7, 2002
Didn't we just talk about this?
On a related note, I have to agree with with both yhbc and me3dia. CNN, et al., are all massive sites with a ton of stories that I don't have the time or desire to read. That's where MeFi comes in, and I appreciate it greatly. I repeat my preference, which seems to be shared by our gracious Prince, for well-researched analytical posts, but I don't think a mandatory reading list is a good solution to the problem. Assuming, of course, that such a problem really exists.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:31 PM on August 7, 2002
On a related note, I have to agree with with both yhbc and me3dia. CNN, et al., are all massive sites with a ton of stories that I don't have the time or desire to read. That's where MeFi comes in, and I appreciate it greatly. I repeat my preference, which seems to be shared by our gracious Prince, for well-researched analytical posts, but I don't think a mandatory reading list is a good solution to the problem. Assuming, of course, that such a problem really exists.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 7:31 PM on August 7, 2002
Agreed. Anyway, I think NewsFilter is too ingrained in MeFi these days to get rid of it.
It fosters good discussion but all too often we end up discussing the issue, and not the link.
I think that's just the nature of organic discussion. And with the amount of passion that many MeFi'ers have for their particular issues, the "issue" itself is bound to be discussed. Anyway, it's kinda cool that you never know where a MeFi discussion is going to end up.
(Granted, it often goes the way of:
a) "Why the hell was this posted to the front page?"
b) "Damn that Bush and Asscroft."
c) "#$^&#% Miguel @#)^# BlueTrain @#&*"
but very often, terrific discussions come up, with some great links, and I wind up learning a lot.)
posted by Tin Man at 7:31 PM on August 7, 2002
It fosters good discussion but all too often we end up discussing the issue, and not the link.
I think that's just the nature of organic discussion. And with the amount of passion that many MeFi'ers have for their particular issues, the "issue" itself is bound to be discussed. Anyway, it's kinda cool that you never know where a MeFi discussion is going to end up.
(Granted, it often goes the way of:
a) "Why the hell was this posted to the front page?"
b) "Damn that Bush and Asscroft."
c) "#$^&#% Miguel @#)^# BlueTrain @#&*"
but very often, terrific discussions come up, with some great links, and I wind up learning a lot.)
posted by Tin Man at 7:31 PM on August 7, 2002
There isn't a MeFi FAQ now and I believe that there should never be a need to create a list of rules to follow.
My boss said to me today, as I was late for the 2nd time in two weeks, that he can't teach efficiency; he can't teach me, or anyone else, how to actively be the best employee possible, because it's something you have to learn, to understand by yourself.
As the flood of newbies begin rushing into the sacred halls of MeFi, all of us who have been here for quite some time have to realize that creating a bunch of meaningless rules will never solve the signal-noise problem. It won't solve the news-filter type of posting we see so often. Posters have to realize what a good front-page-post is by looking at established posters' behavior. This means that we, as a community, need to step up our game, and scour the web for the best, not simply what generates discussion, which I think is the big problem now.
I think too many people view this site as a discussion forum, instead of a weblog created by links. When anyone creates a front-page-post, they must link to something on the web. The foundation of MeFi is the solid link, the jewel of the web. Granted, when major news occurs, like 9/11, the LAX shooting, etc. people will want to link and discuss this. But discussion is and has always been secondary to the link on this site, and that fact seems to be neglected more and more after each passing day.
Anyone can make a list of rules. A list of sites to peruse before arriving here. A list of dos and don'ts of the site. But you can't tell people to be good posters. You have to show them.
Now, back to my liquor.
posted by BlueTrain at 7:36 PM on August 7, 2002
My boss said to me today, as I was late for the 2nd time in two weeks, that he can't teach efficiency; he can't teach me, or anyone else, how to actively be the best employee possible, because it's something you have to learn, to understand by yourself.
As the flood of newbies begin rushing into the sacred halls of MeFi, all of us who have been here for quite some time have to realize that creating a bunch of meaningless rules will never solve the signal-noise problem. It won't solve the news-filter type of posting we see so often. Posters have to realize what a good front-page-post is by looking at established posters' behavior. This means that we, as a community, need to step up our game, and scour the web for the best, not simply what generates discussion, which I think is the big problem now.
I think too many people view this site as a discussion forum, instead of a weblog created by links. When anyone creates a front-page-post, they must link to something on the web. The foundation of MeFi is the solid link, the jewel of the web. Granted, when major news occurs, like 9/11, the LAX shooting, etc. people will want to link and discuss this. But discussion is and has always been secondary to the link on this site, and that fact seems to be neglected more and more after each passing day.
Anyone can make a list of rules. A list of sites to peruse before arriving here. A list of dos and don'ts of the site. But you can't tell people to be good posters. You have to show them.
Now, back to my liquor.
posted by BlueTrain at 7:36 PM on August 7, 2002
Thanks BT, you said it better than I did.
miller time
posted by PrinceValium at 7:38 PM on August 7, 2002
miller time
posted by PrinceValium at 7:38 PM on August 7, 2002
I remember a time when it was considered damn near close to MeFi treason to even THINK of posting a link to Salon, CNN, NYT, Yahoo, etc. The reasoning being that it was expected that everyone here already read those things on their own.
I still have a hard time getting over it when people say they come here first to get their news. That simply would not have been acceptable in the MeFi of 2000.
(yes, I know, I'm being a whiny old timer; you whippersnappers go back to whatever it was you were talking about while I go gum some zweiback)
posted by briank at 7:40 PM on August 7, 2002
I still have a hard time getting over it when people say they come here first to get their news. That simply would not have been acceptable in the MeFi of 2000.
(yes, I know, I'm being a whiny old timer; you whippersnappers go back to whatever it was you were talking about while I go gum some zweiback)
posted by briank at 7:40 PM on August 7, 2002
I really liked it today when there were only two links on the front page for August 7. Unfortunately when kirkaracha (no offense to you kirk!) posted, the floodgates were re-opened.
I think a slower pace (people ought to pace themselves) might lend to members contemplating and better researching before they post.
posted by insomnyuk at 7:45 PM on August 7, 2002
I think a slower pace (people ought to pace themselves) might lend to members contemplating and better researching before they post.
posted by insomnyuk at 7:45 PM on August 7, 2002
A MeFi cannon? I can think of soooo many uses for that.
posted by eyeballkid at 7:47 PM on August 7, 2002
posted by eyeballkid at 7:47 PM on August 7, 2002
no offense to you kirk!
Hey, none taken, although it looks like the floodgates opened later than when I posted, not that it matters.
Some days there are lots of posts, some days there are fewer. It's all part of nature's delicate balance.
A MeFi cannon? I can think of soooo many uses for that.
Cooool.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:05 PM on August 7, 2002
If you make me read CNN, Yahoo, Reuters, NYTimes, Washington Post, Salon, and Slate to play here I'll come over to your house and pee on your cat. I'm not kidding.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:16 PM on August 7, 2002
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:16 PM on August 7, 2002
"A MeFi cannon?"
Sure, we get a cannon, then Fark gets a tank, then Plastic develops chemical weapons and pretty soon we've nuked the Web.
Please, let's stop this insane arms race before Something Awful happens.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:38 PM on August 7, 2002
Sure, we get a cannon, then Fark gets a tank, then Plastic develops chemical weapons and pretty soon we've nuked the Web.
Please, let's stop this insane arms race before Something Awful happens.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:38 PM on August 7, 2002
... I'll come over to your house and pee on your cat.
You owe me one new monitor.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:39 PM on August 7, 2002
You owe me one new monitor.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 8:39 PM on August 7, 2002
Please, let's stop this insane arms race before Something Awful happens.
Best laugh I've had in days. Thanks, mr_crash_davis!
posted by sennoma at 8:54 PM on August 7, 2002
Best laugh I've had in days. Thanks, mr_crash_davis!
posted by sennoma at 8:54 PM on August 7, 2002
When I read this headline I thought you meant this...
The MeFi Canon:
A list of posts that were really great, and that all newbies should check out to see an example of a great post. I immediately imagined a single page that had all these examples of great posts of all sorts. Then I saw the more inside, and was disappointed.
Still, the idea I thought you had is a good one, no? Its almost the exact opposite idea, as it offers a list of positives to emulate rather then negatives to avoid?
posted by malphigian at 11:03 PM on August 7, 2002
The MeFi Canon:
A list of posts that were really great, and that all newbies should check out to see an example of a great post. I immediately imagined a single page that had all these examples of great posts of all sorts. Then I saw the more inside, and was disappointed.
Still, the idea I thought you had is a good one, no? Its almost the exact opposite idea, as it offers a list of positives to emulate rather then negatives to avoid?
posted by malphigian at 11:03 PM on August 7, 2002
OK, I see my idea isn't a popular one.
Do people really use Metafilter to get headlines from major newspapers? Whether or not you agree with BrianK that such a thing is inappropriate, surely there are sites that are created just for that purpose and frankly do it a lot better.
Malphigian: What's a great post? That's even more subjective than a list of news sites.
posted by PrinceValium at 6:11 AM on August 8, 2002
Do people really use Metafilter to get headlines from major newspapers? Whether or not you agree with BrianK that such a thing is inappropriate, surely there are sites that are created just for that purpose and frankly do it a lot better.
Malphigian: What's a great post? That's even more subjective than a list of news sites.
posted by PrinceValium at 6:11 AM on August 8, 2002
I don't know that it's inappropriate per se, it's just such a departure from the zeitgeist of the place when I first walked in.
But I see a lot of people remark that they come here first as soon as they hear about a breaking news story, or that this is their only stop on the web for news/information. I find that kind of troubling, personally, not because of what it says about MetaFilter (after all, "It's Just A Website!"), but what it says about the way those people choose to be informed about the world.
posted by briank at 6:48 AM on August 8, 2002
But I see a lot of people remark that they come here first as soon as they hear about a breaking news story, or that this is their only stop on the web for news/information. I find that kind of troubling, personally, not because of what it says about MetaFilter (after all, "It's Just A Website!"), but what it says about the way those people choose to be informed about the world.
posted by briank at 6:48 AM on August 8, 2002
Matt could add a question to our user pages on the order of "any web links you particularly enjoy?" Then we might get some quick input from people who don't have their own URL elsewhere. I'd be very curious to see what the MeFi canon looks like for different people ...
posted by sheauga at 7:34 AM on August 8, 2002
posted by sheauga at 7:34 AM on August 8, 2002
I'd be very curious to see what the MeFi canon looks like for different people ...
Go to their homepages and see who they link to.
posted by revbrian at 7:43 AM on August 8, 2002
Go to their homepages and see who they link to.
posted by revbrian at 7:43 AM on August 8, 2002
[points to sheauga] I like!
And I must side with Briank that the idea of MeFi as peoples' NewsFilter (except in superduper circumstances) sort of bugs me. It's better for everybody if they check the news every so often (be it web, radio, newspaper or TV). Do we really need posts about kidnapped kids and so on?
posted by Marquis at 7:59 AM on August 8, 2002
And I must side with Briank that the idea of MeFi as peoples' NewsFilter (except in superduper circumstances) sort of bugs me. It's better for everybody if they check the news every so often (be it web, radio, newspaper or TV). Do we really need posts about kidnapped kids and so on?
posted by Marquis at 7:59 AM on August 8, 2002
"Do people really use Metafilter to get headlines from major newspapers?"
I read about 15 treeware periodicals, mostly dealing with photography and computers. I listen to the news morning and night. I *try* to make sure my reading keeps me informed about world and regional issues, although I probably fail by most standards. That's my world and I like it.
Most (almost 100%) of the links I see on Metafilter (including Salon, Slate, etc links) don't show up in any of the magazines I read. A small percentage might show up in Time or Newsweek, a few more on NPR. I think this is a good thing.
Does this mean I'm an ill-informed idiot? I must read from the proscribed canon before I can be considered literate? I get my headlines from Metafilter rather than major newspapers? BFD.
Okay.... Okay..... I give. I'll be good. Please forward me the list of items I need to read daily so that you'll respect my intellect.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:26 AM on August 8, 2002
I read about 15 treeware periodicals, mostly dealing with photography and computers. I listen to the news morning and night. I *try* to make sure my reading keeps me informed about world and regional issues, although I probably fail by most standards. That's my world and I like it.
Most (almost 100%) of the links I see on Metafilter (including Salon, Slate, etc links) don't show up in any of the magazines I read. A small percentage might show up in Time or Newsweek, a few more on NPR. I think this is a good thing.
Does this mean I'm an ill-informed idiot? I must read from the proscribed canon before I can be considered literate? I get my headlines from Metafilter rather than major newspapers? BFD.
Okay.... Okay..... I give. I'll be good. Please forward me the list of items I need to read daily so that you'll respect my intellect.
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:26 AM on August 8, 2002
Like y6, I don't use MetaFilter as a news source, I use it as a filter. WSJ, news.google.com and a host of offline media fulfill my news needs, but MeFi finds the stuff I'm missing so I don't have to. This here is the sugar in my coffee.
posted by me3dia at 8:45 AM on August 8, 2002
posted by me3dia at 8:45 AM on August 8, 2002
If everyone started adding at least one, if not two, context/analysis links to single-link news stories they post, this problem would be solved. Without the need for a major change in the rules.
posted by mediareport at 8:59 AM on August 8, 2002
posted by mediareport at 8:59 AM on August 8, 2002
i'm arriving late to the party, but i think it might not be such a bad idea. the problem is defining the canon, but there's an obvious solution to that - automate it. daypop´s top40 has a list of the links that have already "gone the rounds". i´d suggest that anything on that list (or at least in the top 10) doesn't need to appear on mefi because an awful lot of readers will have seen it elsewhere.
if you only read mefi, then you´d have to check out the daypop top40 too, of course...
posted by andrew cooke at 9:08 AM on August 8, 2002
if you only read mefi, then you´d have to check out the daypop top40 too, of course...
posted by andrew cooke at 9:08 AM on August 8, 2002
I agree with mediareport and submit dejah420's post today as a good example.
posted by vacapinta at 10:56 AM on August 8, 2002
posted by vacapinta at 10:56 AM on August 8, 2002
If everyone started adding at least one, if not two, context/analysis links to single-link news stories they post, this problem would be solved. Without the need for a major change in the rules.
that needed to be said again. Thanks mediareport.
and if someone posts just a news link? Find context/analysis links and post them in your comments. Better metafilter world, that.
posted by th3ph17 at 1:12 PM on August 8, 2002
that needed to be said again. Thanks mediareport.
and if someone posts just a news link? Find context/analysis links and post them in your comments. Better metafilter world, that.
posted by th3ph17 at 1:12 PM on August 8, 2002
This is trolling in the best Slashdot-inspired form. Well done, PrinceValium, you got the monkeys wagging their tails again.
posted by wackybrit at 4:31 PM on August 8, 2002
posted by wackybrit at 4:31 PM on August 8, 2002
Yeah, because, you know, I have nothing better to do.
posted by PrinceValium at 6:16 PM on August 8, 2002
posted by PrinceValium at 6:16 PM on August 8, 2002
Writing and maintaining a faq is time&energy-consuming. Matt seems plenty busy as it is. There are occasionally posts and/or comments that are unusually articulate in describing what works best on Metafilter. Could they be put in a "Best Of" category in Metatalk, so new members, and maybe some not so new, could get a feel for what works?
posted by theora55 at 8:08 PM on August 8, 2002
posted by theora55 at 8:08 PM on August 8, 2002
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My question: Should there be a Mefi canon? A list of news and magazine websites which the collective "we" should encourage ourselves to be reading on a daily basis? I'm not in favor of banning NewsFilter posts by any means, but I'm wondering if we should discourage linking to the most-visited sites - CNN, Yahoo Reuters, NYTimes, Washington Post, Salon, Slate, etc. - in favor of non-news analysis of the issue that the article covers. The news article itself might be linked at the end of the FPP or in the first comment, for those who haven't seen it. But I'd bet two bucks that discussion on a given analysis or research post is more focused, more informative, and less personality-driven than discussion on a post that links to the AP feed.
Of course, I'm not singling anyone out. If anything, I'm indicting myself. But I'm wondering if this is something we should be keeping in mind when we desire to post breaking news or the latest cover article to the Mefi front page. I'm also wondering if the subject of the Mefi canon - as discussed below or offline somewhere - is appropriate for the future FAQ.
posted by PrinceValium at 7:08 PM on August 7, 2002