MetaSwap

March 8, 2007 12:51 PM

MetaSwap? [MI]
posted by 6550 to feature requests at 12:51 PM (63 comments total)

It might be nice to have an area for selling/trading/wanted items. This was discussed previously and at the time (July 2005) mathowie expressed interest but had other features he wanted to implement; jobs and projects. Since those are up I thought it might be a time to revisit the idea.

What prompted this was a recent disappointing purchase on Craigslist; a laptop. I wanted to avoid the crapshoot that ebay can sometimes be by purchasing locally, especially on a not-so-inexpensive and somewhat delicate item. The problem I ran into on Craigslist was limited availability of the models I was interested in (iBook or Thinkpad). It occurred to me that Mefi might be a good place to have a for sale/wanted section that's perhaps more trustworthy than ebay and a potentially more diverse selection than some of us have locally.

I know there are potential problems with this type of thing but I'd like to believe that the community aspect of Metafilter would mitigate some of them.
posted by 6550 at 12:51 PM on March 8, 2007

Who will people blame when a transaction goes south?
posted by Dave Faris at 1:16 PM on March 8, 2007

On one hand, it's a cool idea.

But on the other hand, it might become a honeypot for scammers.
posted by drezdn at 1:26 PM on March 8, 2007

If anyone can think of a way we could limit it, to keep it safer and let people feel confident in making purchases, I'd be happy to build it. I don't know if a simple ebay clone would be enough.

Heck, in the past when I've done the CD Swap thing, I've had 2/5 of the participants not even send a CD, so even though we seem trustworthy and cool with one another, there will be trouble when we mix buying and selling stuff even among longtime members.
posted by mathowie at 1:36 PM on March 8, 2007

Perhaps you could have a page where people post links to their own CraigsList postings. For example, I live near Columbus Ohio. If I wanted to sell a dresser, I could post it on CraigsList/Columbus and then post that post to a page on MetaSwap (or whatever you would like to call it). Then if nobody on MeFi wanted to purchase the dresser, I could still sell it through CraigsList. If I'm selling a laptop, then I'd probably rather sell it to a mefi user. I would post a link to the CraigsList post that I created where I am selling a laptop. And so on. That way we know who the mefi people are on CraigsList - because of this, though, you may run the risk of losing some sense of anonymity.
posted by billysumday at 1:47 PM on March 8, 2007

I've had 2/5 of the participants not even send a CD

That's pretty disappointing! Perhaps a transaction involving payment would be more reliable but I don't know.

I just thought it might be a decent idea since I'm not really satisfied with the selection in Denver nor with the laptop I ended up with; caveat emptor and all that, but at least it didn't cost a whole lot.
posted by 6550 at 2:05 PM on March 8, 2007

I can actually see this working, but with some slight modification. Chief would be that Matt acts as arbiter and middleman to keep both parties honest. Here's how it works.

Person A and Person B agree to a swap. Both parties would then need to send their items directly to Matt. Matt would then evaluate the items to determine if the swap's terms had been honored, e.g., "Hmmm, this is not a ThinkPad; this is a pound of bacon wrapped in a bike chain" or "This seems to be a letter bomb; honey, will you call for medical attention?" If the swap's terms were not met, or if (after a set period of time; let's say ten years) one member never responds with an item, Matt will return the appropriate item(s) back to the original owner. Only if and when Matt determines that the swap is a fair one does he then go ahead and forward each item on to its happy new owners.

It's really cool, when you think about it, provided that Matt's up for it, which I assume he is. Since we have no intention of paying him for this work, as well, we can simply allow Matt a portion of each swap; for example, he can have some of that bacon I mentioned earlier; or he can use that ThinkPad for a week or so to prop up the table that's got a short leg before passing it along. Everyone wins!

Matt, please signal your approval of this plan by either commenting on, deleting or ignoring this suggestion. And thanks!
posted by Skot at 2:13 PM on March 8, 2007 [12 favorites]

One possible rule might be that only people with more than 10, 15, or 20 (or 50 etc.) comments in total can trade/buy/sell. Obviously this would be exclude many people who are upstanding citizens yet mostly lurkers, but the higher the quota, the less likely someone would be to game the system--i.e., join Metafilter simply to scam. And you could always check to determine the time over which somone satisfied the comment quota--a few hours or even days might be suspect.

Seems like number of comments could be a decent (though obviously underinclusive) proxy of community-oriented feeling, which is what you would want proof of.
posted by chinston at 2:17 PM on March 8, 2007

I may never have to throw away anything again, if I can just send all the crap I don't want to Matt. Count me in!

Only slightly offtopic, have you ever tried to throw away an old garbage can? It's damn near impossible.
posted by yhbc at 2:21 PM on March 8, 2007 [3 favorites]

You know, I've got a CD rack and a queen sized mattress in my garage. Email me if you want one or the other.
posted by boo_radley at 2:34 PM on March 8, 2007

Only slightly offtopic, have you ever tried to throw away an old garbage can? It's damn near impossible.

I threw one away a few weeks ago (the lid was busted). I just put it out empty with the lid jammed inside, next to a new can with trash, and they took the old can with them.
posted by 6550 at 2:52 PM on March 8, 2007

Along the lines of Chinston's idea, what if you had to be a member for a certain length of time, rather than have made a certain number of posts? By length of time I mean 12 months, or 24 months. It might not suit everyone, but if the aim is to exclude scammers and promote some trust then it might help. You'd need to be pretty determined to join in order to con someone a year later. Also an Askme style restriction of only offering one swap per fortnight, or month, would make it even less attractive to scammers. And I agree, Matt should have to sample every piece of bacon before the swap can be completed.
posted by Elmore at 3:01 PM on March 8, 2007

I would like to see some version of this.

I'm also on record as supporting a MeFi house swap thingy. But MeSwap could easily encompass that.

For example, if we had a classifieds-type section, I would probably announce that I may need to find someone to occupy my apartment in Buenos Aires from June through Oct/Nov. And that my email was in my profile. For example.
posted by veggieboy at 3:21 PM on March 8, 2007

I know there are potential problems with this type of thing but I'd like to believe that the community aspect of Metafilter would mitigate some of them.

Maybe. Maybe not. The community aspect of Mefi can be positive at times, but it can also be negative. So lets not pretend that "community" means happy, hippy "we're all friend and looking out for each other" commune. It also means tarring and feathering, pointless arguments, cliqueness and the occasional circle jerk.

And that's just with the current crowd. If the site starts selling and trading, you're going to attract all sorts of scummy spammers, conartists and whatnot. And if you thought mefi was slow around lunchtime before...!

So no, it wouldn't be a good idea.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:29 PM on March 8, 2007

Chief would be that Matt acts as arbiter and middleman to keep both parties honest.

Because yes, Matt has the time and legal fund to play that role.

One possible rule might be that only people with more than 10, 15, or 20 (or 50 etc.) comments in total can trade/buy/sell.

Why? what does that have to do with trading or selling? What is all the comments are one line snark that don't add anything to the individual threads?

certain length of time, rather than have made a certain number of posts? By length of time I mean 12 months, or 24 months.

Maybe, but there would probably be an surge in spammers 12 or 24 months from implementation.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:39 PM on March 8, 2007

I'm horribly dissapointed by the More Inside. I was so hoping to be able to trundle off the wife in exchange for perhaps something shorter and curvier for a weekend. Though I don't see that its actually verboten in this scheme, 'cept maybe by the wife...damn.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 3:40 PM on March 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Brandon - True, so perhaps a comment/post history should be included as a way of making a judgement on the person. If you can review the last 10 - 15 posts you can see whether they are all just throwaway posts or not. Not foolproof, but added with a time limit, might help in deciding whether the swap is worth the risk. Gets a bit finnicky, this trust thing, doesn't it?
posted by Elmore at 3:54 PM on March 8, 2007

I think Matt's observation about the CD swap cuts to the core. Just because someone can press the "Post Comment" button a few times doesn't mean they'll honor an agreement. And I would think more than one person on the site would be willing to scrap a sock puppet account to get a couple hundred bucks for the cardboard box that the hottest new game system ships in. But then, I'm a cynic.
posted by Dave Faris at 4:03 PM on March 8, 2007

Gets a bit finnicky, this trust thing, doesn't it?

Yes. Very tricky and not sure it would add a whole lot to the site. How is it going to be better/different than ebay?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:05 PM on March 8, 2007

>Chief would be that Matt acts as arbiter and middleman to keep both parties honest.

>>Because yes, Matt has the time and legal fund to play that role.

Dude, Skot was totally and completely serious about this, as I'm sure you gleaned from the rest of his very amusing comment, which is why you deployed a deadpan-humour response so exquisitely flat and lifeless that it really seemed as if you didn't get it.

Skot 1, Brandon 0.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:17 PM on March 8, 2007

But then, I'm a cynic.

Do tell! *props chin on knuckles, gazes expectantly*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:18 PM on March 8, 2007

This is a good idea in theory, but it will never work. Stop talking about it now.
posted by dg at 4:19 PM on March 8, 2007 [2 favorites]

yhbc : Only slightly offtopic, have you ever tried to throw away an old garbage can? It's damn near impossible.

I have to toss old bins all the time, just put it out, upside down with a note tapped to it which reads "trash, please take". Works every time.
posted by quin at 4:40 PM on March 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Skot 1, Brandon 0

PWNED NOB LOL
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:41 PM on March 8, 2007

Worst idea ever. Been brought up 100 times. There isn't enough of an audience for a true sale/swap site. Cute crocheted ipod covers exchanged for vintage handmade jewellry? Yes. Anything more? Anything involving real money? Ebay. Nobody can compete with the net Ebay casts for people interested in marketing/looking for creative goods.
posted by fire&wings at 4:43 PM on March 8, 2007

Say...I like bacon! I like bikes too! What do you want for that "Thinkpad," Skot? I've got a bunch of used cat tins and string "mobile phone", or a nice couple of old coffee cans set of bongo drums. Do you want me to send all of it to Matt and you take your pick?
posted by bonehead at 4:51 PM on March 8, 2007

After consideration, this is a bad idea. It would be introducing the apple of knowledge into the garden of MetaFilter. Or throwing down the apple of discord at the feet of atalanta, or whatever.
posted by chinston at 4:55 PM on March 8, 2007

I thought this was going to be a spouse-swapping thing. I'm disappointed.
posted by The God Complex at 5:04 PM on March 8, 2007

I've got a bunch of used cat tins ...
Cats come in tins now?
posted by dg at 5:09 PM on March 8, 2007

This seems like a good source for nightmarish problems. Just use craigslist/eBay. Even if Mefi right now has a good userbase having a big trusting community will attract frauds.

The only way I can really see this working is like freecycle but not a shitty weird email list. That is, money is not changing hands, so there's not a reason to make jerks come and try and steal people's money. But you can already give stuff away for free on Craigslist.
posted by aubilenon at 5:14 PM on March 8, 2007

"I'm horribly dissapointed by the More Inside. I was so hoping to be able to trundle off the wife in exchange for perhaps something shorter and curvier for a weekend. Though I don't see that its actually verboten in this scheme, 'cept maybe by the wife...damn."

Yeah, but if Matt adopts Skot's method he will get to try them both out for a while.

Should he find himself unwilling or unable to fulfill this task, I would humbly volunteer. Solely in the interest of Metafilter harmony, of course.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:14 PM on March 8, 2007

Maybe it could work if MeFi trading was somehow piggybacked onto switchplanet. I have not actually used their service, but they appear to guarantee swaps using a virtual currency, at no charge. Swaps could be informally arranged within swaps.metafilter.com, and then carried out formally using switchplanet.
posted by roofus at 5:32 PM on March 8, 2007

Okay. I'll swap my swap for your swap. Only swappers with positive swap rating for previous swap swapping. No weirdos.
posted by ardgedee at 5:47 PM on March 8, 2007

If anyone can think of a way we could limit it, to keep it safer and let people feel confident in making purchases,

Heatware. Beerology. As in, the problem has been thoroughly addressed, and no new development work is needed.

Even the appropriate rule sets have been worked out pretty thoroughly in BST forums. The most important, you must always include feedback, and post a price (no "best offer" listings).
posted by Chuckles at 6:39 PM on March 8, 2007

By the way, this topic came up quite recently:

Metafilter classifieds?
November 23, 2006 6:08 PM

If the site starts selling and trading, you're going to attract all sorts of scummy spammers, conartists and whatnot.

Spoken like somebody who doesn't do a lot of trading online.. Ebay attracts a lot of cons, but BST forums at 2cpu, Arstecnica, HardForum, and redflagdeals run very smoothly. Some more smoothly than others, of course, and some with a more healthy market than others..

The only serious objection is that there really isn't that much reason for MetaFilter to take on the role. Personally, I like the idea of building community as broadly as possible, but I'm not sure about the practicality in other respects.

In particular, the healthy market is a tough one. A healthy market being a market where a lot of trading is going on, rather than just a lot of posting. Mefi is likely to have a very strange combination of savvy traders and naive consumers. Who knows whether that can lead to a healthy market or a stagnant one.
posted by Chuckles at 7:06 PM on March 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Ebay attracts a lot of cons, but BST forums at 2cpu, Arstecnica, HardForum, and redflagdeals run very smoothly.

Intriguing and now I'm curious, so there are questions.

Were you around when those sites started doing BST? How did it go, i.e. what sort of problems did they have and how did they resolve? What happens when a deal goes wrong? Does stuff on the BST forums spill over into other aspects of the site, be in positive or negative?

You also mention that some of the sites have smoother operating BST forums than others. Could you be more specific and say which ones are smoother and what you think makes them run smoother?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:53 PM on March 8, 2007

Yeah, Chuckles hit it on the head.

It's not like it's been suggested..

I think it's possible. Y'know. If we think about it.
posted by filmgeek at 8:31 PM on March 8, 2007

There is virtually no spam on any of the sites. There is some question about commercial vs. amateur traders though, and some sites are more strict than others about selling multiples of the same item (a sure hint of a commercial interest - not that there is anything wrong with that). There is scamming at all of them. There are always "traders to avoid" threads, and you will hear people talk about traders that have turned bad.. Sometimes two "good traders" have trouble, and there is bad blood.. Moderators do have a role in manging the fights when that happens. However, beyond chiming in with an opinion, banning people, and possibly handing over identifying data, moderators can't do much (nor should they, as far as I'm concerned).

redflagdeals is a very purpose driven site, at lesat from my perspective. I've posted a lot there, but I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the community aspects. While I know a few specific personalities there, for the most part it is about the deals.. I don't see any leaking of BST activity into the rest of the site. However, everybody is looking for the deal, and nobody wants to give up their stuff cheap, which makes for a stagnant market.

From second hand reports I believe Ars is a fairly tight community, at some level. I'm not familiar with it though, I've only done a few trades there, and I spend no time in any of the other forums. I find the traders there to be very businesslike, a feature that isn't present on redflagdeals to the same degree.

For hardforum, again I don't do anything but trade there. The users are not as businesslike as Ars, and you get some interesting gaming of the system there, which is irritating. For example, I agreed on a price for some hard drives once, then the person said that he was still using them and they wouldn't be available for a week or two.. I've had similar experiences with other users there. Overall though, it is fine.

At 2cpu the users are very businesslike and practical. Despite the fact that it has the lowest volume, it is the best place to trade computer parts I know of. The users are interested in moving their stuff, and finding good deals, rather than playing around.

It all runs remarkably smoothly.. As far as I can tell, even trading on usenet runs very smoothly, without any moderation at all. It does depend on traders being savvy though, about technical issues, like compatibility, as well as money things, like who might be a scamer.

I don't know how well that answers your questions, Brandon Blatcher, but it is what I know about them..

Hmm.. When you are trading at enthusiast sites, in the goods that the users are enthused about, everybody is pretty technically savvy to begin with. That won't be true here, and that might be an issue..
posted by Chuckles at 9:04 PM on March 8, 2007

Could Matt make my computer dispense sushi?
Could Matt make my stretch marks vanish?
Could Matt make my coat thick and lustrous?

I'd content that MeFi is a place to swap ideas.
posted by Dizzy at 9:45 PM on March 8, 2007

Swap "I'd" for "I'm", please...
posted by Dizzy at 9:47 PM on March 8, 2007

Everything should be dropped off and picked up in person at Matt's house. That'll keep people honest.
posted by klangklangston at 9:57 PM on March 8, 2007

Swap "I'd" for "I'm", please...

Sorry, that's a bad swap. No deal, you shiftless poosucking grifter, you.
posted by loquacious at 10:00 PM on March 8, 2007

Bono.
There.
I said it.
posted by Dizzy at 10:01 PM on March 8, 2007

You know, if MeFi had a Free Stuff section, that would be awesome. I have a houseful of crap that I'm sure would be useful to somebody, but I'm too lazy to craigslist or ebay it. MeFi knows my Lat/Long., so you could even map the crap.

Matt please implement immediately.

Also, I was noticing on this week's podcast that at one point mathowie responds to some Adam Savage comment with this sexy growl. I actually spewed coffee. Could someone please make an interesting audio collage based on mathowie's podcast interjections?

that's all for now, email me if any of you find yourselves with downtime, i've got a list
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 5:45 AM on March 9, 2007

> You know, if MeFi had a Free Stuff section, that would be awesome.

Freecycle is a reasonably well-designed and implemented system for that already. You don't need Mefi to set one up.
posted by ardgedee at 5:59 AM on March 9, 2007

Freecycle is a reasonably well-designed and implemented system for that already.

But I want to give my stuff to people from here.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 6:05 AM on March 9, 2007

If anyone wants any of my stuff, just email me.
posted by Kwine at 6:34 AM on March 9, 2007

It should be possible to run a filter of ebay listings from MeFi sellers. My results with swaps have been quite poor, but it's probably a karma thing.
posted by theora55 at 7:15 AM on March 9, 2007

Both parties would then need to send their items directly to Matt.

Everything should be dropped off and picked up in person at Matt's house.

I think that we can all see where this is going. It is obvious that we all just need to box up all of our belongings and ship them to Matt's house. Matt will then construct a flimsy shanty town in his backyard, made of boxes of stuff, that we can all go live in. Our economy will be based on trading the things that are in the boxes that make up the area of the box village that we have chosen to nest in. When not enjoying the comforts of our section of boxtown or trading box contents with one another, we will all sit in a large circle in a nearby field where we will discuss topics that may be put forward by anyone in the circle. Matt and Jessamyn (and cortex I suppose now) will sit in the center of the circle and shout down any proposed topic of conversation that has been discussed before or that doesn't meet the guidelines of our foul-smelling and insane community (you can't make showers out of boxes). If you look into your heart you will see that this is where we are heading. This is the next step in Metafilter's evolution. This is our destiny. Join me!
posted by ND¢ at 8:48 AM on March 9, 2007 [4 favorites]

Who run Bartertown?
posted by boo_radley at 8:58 AM on March 9, 2007 [2 favorites]

When we are all camped out, ND, we'll have to discuss a shout out rule, whereby no one's photo can be taken unless they are holding a card with another member's name.

I have a bunch of junk in a storage facility, but I don't remember what all is in there anymore. Anyone else have a storage unit full of junk? We could swap keys.
posted by routergirl at 9:41 AM on March 9, 2007

You know, we could even send Matt things we find put out on the curb. The free stuff on NYC sidewalks is endless, and I bet that most of this stuff doesn't have bedbugs in them.
posted by R. Mutt at 10:08 AM on March 9, 2007

I mentioned this idea years ago- SHOT DOWN. I even suggested the proceeds go to charity.
I guess alot ha$ changed.

so I am offering my personal journals for sale; 2005-present.

de(S)cription software xtra.

was and is a good idea.
posted by clavdivs at 11:13 AM on March 9, 2007

I've got an extra cat. Does anyone want a cat?
posted by drezdn at 11:35 AM on March 9, 2007

I've got an extra cat. Does anyone want a cat?

Just a leg please, I'm trying to cut back.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:36 AM on March 9, 2007

Only slightly offtopic, have you ever tried to throw away an old garbage can? It's damn near impossible.

God yes. I put it in another trash can. Next week, I put a sign on it. Next week, I wrote on it with a permanent market. Finally, I took a box cutter and cut it in half. That did the trick.
posted by MrMoonPie at 12:53 PM on March 9, 2007

I don't remember the exact numbers, but most transaction sites like eBay have to deal with the 5% that doesn't work. This 5%, if it turns sour, can ruin the reputation of any site. That's why eBay has the biggest team of lawyers specialized in conciliation, or resolution of commercial conflicts.

Nobody needs to reinvent the wheel.

Now, it all depends whether Matt wants to make money with it or not.

Let's say he doesn't. In that case, there is no need to invent anything. We can just use the same model as Projects: create a part of the site where we post things posted for sale elsewhere (craigslist if you want to sell locally without the mailing hassle, eBay for everywhere, Freecycle to donate or any other transaction site that you like).

If we want to add some zing to it, we can add special conditions, like, for example: you can post there only one item at a time, only once a week, only if you have been a member for xx (6?) months and Mefite buyers will have a x%(10?) rebate on the final (or sticker) price.
posted by bru at 12:57 PM on March 9, 2007

I was hoping this was going to be MeFi WifeSwap^tm and I was having fun trying to create guaranteed conflicting match-ups in my head...
posted by 1f2frfbf at 1:07 PM on March 9, 2007

I thought this was going to be related to classic Ham Radio Swapfest and that I'd finally be able to get rid of that 10 meter band whip antenna that I have on the roof of my car.

Any takers?
posted by drezdn at 2:10 PM on March 9, 2007

T -5:37 EST.
posted by Wolfdog at 3:23 PM on March 9, 2007

For those of us who don't live on mainland USA this is all rather academic, and also really rather pointless. Craigslist? Ebay? What are they and why should I care? And why would trying to send stuff to any of you (with shipping and whatever) be any better than doing a pick up only, low reserve auction on trademe?
posted by shelleycat at 11:59 PM on March 9, 2007

I once spent a summer working as an intern for a small start-up intending to create a service to facilitate swaps between collectors. As far as I know, it never launched due to difficulty implementing a trustworthy (or at least somewhat-trustworthy) online-only system that couldn't be easily gamed. Sure, there's karma/feedback, but for people involved in a low number of high-value transactions, there's a very small disincentive to abuse the system.

It might work with a smaller, less anonymous, closed community with a high barrier to entry. But that isn't MeFi, and I wouldn't want it to be MeFi.
posted by Alterscape at 11:07 AM on March 10, 2007

but for people involved in a low number of high-value transactions, there's a very small disincentive to abuse the system.

For high value transactions, whatever high value means to you, use escrow. It is expensive, and it probably isn't perfect (apparently minor damage on a rare collectable?!?). Then again, going to a store down the street isn't scam free either, so..
posted by Chuckles at 11:21 AM on March 10, 2007