Slapping someone in the face a bit too much ...

December 18, 2007 2:13 PM

While this guy does need the "slap in the face" back-to-reality technique he's getting, he doesn't need it to the extent he's getting, and the extent of name-calling is more likely to make him re-entrench in his behaviors than it is to assist in the change of attitude he's seeking. This comment is particularly unhelpful.
posted by WCityMike to Etiquette/Policy at 2:13 PM (651 comments total)

OMG MY FIRST CALLOUT! AND ON MY BIRTHDAY, TOO! WCITYMIKE THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!
posted by dersins at 2:17 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]

I have a theory, with no particular evidence (except this thread), to back it up. The theory is that an anonymous post with potentially negative reactions is likely to get far more negative reactions if posted anonymously.
posted by drezdn at 2:18 PM on December 18, 2007

Is being a giant dork really so reprehensible? Ugh, you guys.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:19 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

I don't know. Anything that gets that guy into a night club and off the street is a good thing.

What amazed me, is that he says "geek" but screams "confused fratboy." He seems like an intellectual meathead, which is of course the worse kind of meathead.
posted by milarepa at 2:19 PM on December 18, 2007 [10 favorites]

And I stand by my response. That guy comes across as a fucking wanker. He's not getting laid as much as he wants precisely because he comes across as a fucking wanker. Thus, in order to resolve his problem, he needs to be made to understand that he comes across as a fucking wanker.

Q E mammyjamming D.
posted by dersins at 2:20 PM on December 18, 2007 [27 favorites]

Is being a giant dork really so reprehensible?

Seriously. Some of you need to step back from your glass walls.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:21 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

That was the AskMe version of "My penis is so big that it's uncomfortable to ride a bicycle. What other problems will my big penis and I encounter?"
posted by mullacc at 2:21 PM on December 18, 2007 [200 favorites]

Also, when I first came across the question, it really came across as a "I have a 12 inch penis, my wife is a former playmate, I have a career that pays 6 figures but only involves an hour of work. Is my life too awesome?"*

*except there is a real question nearly lost in the poster's writing style this time.
posted by drezdn at 2:22 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

That guy comes across as a fucking wanker.

But he has a fedora AND an accent!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:22 PM on December 18, 2007 [12 favorites]

Beat to it by mullac (we need a word for these questions).
posted by drezdn at 2:23 PM on December 18, 2007

The question should be deleted because the guy is too busy rehearsing his next sex ad and preening his feathers to get to the bones of what he wants to know. If his frivolous prose brings out the same in the people answering the questions - tough.
posted by fire&wings at 2:24 PM on December 18, 2007

Dammit, I hate when an offensive comment is deleted before I've had the opportunity to pass judgment.
posted by desjardins at 2:24 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

He seems nice to me, you are jealous of his big fedora. dersins, go eat some cake or something.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:25 PM on December 18, 2007 [22 favorites]

And I stand by my response.

So you dig in your heels here but you don't understand why he would do the same in regards to the attack you made on him?
posted by vacapinta at 2:25 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

mullac FTW
posted by pinto at 2:26 PM on December 18, 2007

I'm glad this got MeTa'ed so I can point out how beautifully appropriate it is that the poster used the 'hilarious' tag. Makes me a bit suspicious that he might've had some idea of what was coming.
posted by contraption at 2:26 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Pinstripes, a fedora, a fake British accent...

...could anonymous be Madonna?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:26 PM on December 18, 2007 [17 favorites]

I think it's interesting to note that almost all the comments that knock him down a peg say things like "you sound like a asshole/wanker/meathead/dumbass" or "you come off like a asshole/wanker/meathead/dumbass", and NOT that he "IS an asshole/wanker/meathead/dumbass". It's an important distinction because I think we all can see the sad clueless boy part, being misperceived by others as something greater* (and, if left to fester, will become that**).

My point is, I think a lot of the advice is dead-on, and not as harsh as it sounds at first pass. I hope anonymous has the same takeaway.

*And by "greater", I mean "not great at all".
**Currently being circumvented by a collective noooooooo as we all are trying to prevent a future trainwreck.
posted by iamkimiam at 2:29 PM on December 18, 2007 [4 favorites]

Was it the clever personal ad that won you over, jessamyn?
posted by box at 2:30 PM on December 18, 2007

Dammit, I hate when an offensive comment is deleted before I've had the opportunity to pass judgment.

Judge away:

"Wow, what a fucking trainwreck. No, not the question. You. The guy who posted it. You're like the incredibly tone-deaf guy who's convinced he's Barry White and sings in public at the drop of a hat.

You clearly just don't get it, but that doesn't stop you from trying, does it? I hope, after the responses that you've gotten in this thread, you understand now why you've been relatively unsuccessful in your efforts: you come across as deeply self-centered, arrogant, and, frankly, a bore.

Blah blah my accent. Blah blah my fedora. Blah blah I am attractive.

No, you're not.

People like an opportunity to talk about themselves. And, despite what you appear to believe, women are actual people, not merely handy sheathes for your poniard. So try asking a fucking question once in your life instead of droning on about yourself.
posted by dersins at 2:03 PM on December 18 [1 favorite +] [!]"

I still stand by it. The tone may be abrasive, but it is useful advice. Now I am going to eat some cake.
posted by dersins at 2:31 PM on December 18, 2007 [33 favorites]

Somehow I think this is the only kind of question/attitude that deserves and even requires a verbal beatdown from the multitudes.

What's wrong with geeks, nothing. What's wrong with disingenuous shmucks "posing" as geeks... well, a whole lot.
posted by shownomercy at 2:33 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

handy sheathes for your poniard has a nice heft to it, all else aside.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:34 PM on December 18, 2007 [11 favorites]

The two CL posts were posted on the same day (last Sunday) at 9:19 PM and 9:22 PM. Either they're genuine and he prepared them in advance, or they're fake and were prepared as bait (if they were bait, you think he would have spaced it out a week, or at least a day or two). But two piece of prose that lengthy and cogent (they are readable and a little funny) is pretty unlikely.

Good call contraption though, I didn't see the hilarious tag. I think this is probably a hoax, but if it is, the characterization is awesome. I mean, I know I've met guys like that before. If I'd become more of a wag before I acquiring the social grace to realize that I'd just look like a total sod, I could have been that guy.

Also, mullacc, that's brilliant.
posted by Nelsormensch at 2:35 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

My social algorithms are cribbed from something a little more polysyllabic than Jugs and Barely Legal

Well, he's clearly never going to party with Klangklangston.
posted by drezdn at 2:35 PM on December 18, 2007

You think knowledge is an aphrodesiac, like powdered rhino horn meets sun-kissed strawberry. You probably own a t-shirt that says, 'Librarians do it in the stacks.'

Except for the typo, yes.

He sounds nice. He's getting laid. He's not butt-ugly. He likes himself. He's employed. He knows polysyllabic words. So he sounds pretentious, at least he has a sense of humor.

I guess it depends what your goals are in life, but this just seems to be playa hatin' to me.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:36 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

Oh good, a complainy MeTa thread.

1) If he had said "Hi, I'm geeky and kind of a dork in general and girls make me nervous, but I'd really like to date someone great, what do I do????" I would have given kindly, older-sister type advice about trying to relax and realizing that girls are nervous just like he is, etc.

But. The kid isn't asking "How do I find a girlfriend to date?", he's asking "I'm awesome, why aren't girls I just met letting me fuck them?"

It's just silly to insist that people are being mean by pointing out that, in general, human males do not get to stroll into their nearest 7/11 and go "...LADIES..." and that's that.

2) Do these questions really have to send the batsignal to the 'OMG I READ THIS AWESUM E-BOOK ON SEDUCTION!!!' crowd? Ick.

On preview: YAY, "handy sheathes for your poniard" has been rescued from oblivion! I really enjoyed that.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 2:37 PM on December 18, 2007 [25 favorites]

dersins, I'll give it an 8. "Sheathes" is a misspelling, and you made me look up "poniard."
posted by desjardins at 2:37 PM on December 18, 2007

So try asking a fucking question once in your life instead of droning on about yourself.

Dear AskMe: I was going to ask for advice on meeting like-minded women, but I've been advised that I shouldn't talk so much about myself, so I can't tell you what I'm like. What are YOU like? TIA
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:38 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

Also, when I first came across the question, it really came across as a "I have a 12 inch penis, my wife is a former playmate, I have a career that pays 6 figures but only involves an hour of work. Is my life too awesome?"

Actually, there was a question a while back that was essentially just that. I don't remember the exactly problem he was trying to solve but he was basically a millionaire cowboy astronaut with a super model wife. I'm pretty sure those people only exist on the internet though.
posted by puke & cry at 2:39 PM on December 18, 2007

Is being a giant dork really so reprehensible? Ugh, you guys.

No, it's not reprehensible. But it helps explain why he's not getting the carefree sex he seems to crave so desparately -- which, after all, was the subject of his question.
posted by pardonyou? at 2:40 PM on December 18, 2007

There's some weird male fantasy that involves being able to charm, seduce or otherwise do some sort of magic on any female on the street and have sex with them. That a charming Frank Sinatra character, overcoat slinged over his back would stand next to a woman on the street, light a cigarette and smoothly utter, "Hey blondie, it is too cold for someone as beautiful as you to be out on the street. How about we get a cup of coffee?" And of course she would swoon and be incredibly intoxicated. To see how widespread this is, look up Mystery, the pickup artist that is very similar to our friend here .... right down to the odd manners of dress and language to "spark an interest," in a girl.

So I beg you, women of the world, please save us from ourselves. "What is Casual Sex and What it is Not, by Women," it could be given out when men turn 18 or when they think things like going to yoga class are a good way to pick up a casual sex partner. It could discuss how casual sex means such things as, being friends at the office and having a one-night stand after a hard day and a night at the bars. Or it could be that neighbor you talk to when you get the mail. You have coffee once or twice, realize that there's no romantic interest but inertia pushes you to a good quickie in the afternoon when you both have the day off. That is casual sex, it is not going up to a woman in a subway and putting the moves on her so she'll chase you back to your apartment. It is certainly not wearing a costume and pretending to be an aristocratic brogue from the 19th century.
posted by geoff. at 2:42 PM on December 18, 2007 [42 favorites]

hey guys, look at my gold card.. look, look! Guys?...... Guys?

Yeah, I know people like this. If they had a few years of therapy they would be pretty fucking great, not so much nowadays.

That, or this AskMe is a joke.
posted by edgeways at 2:43 PM on December 18, 2007

pardonyou?
Yeah it sure does, and I told him go take a larp. What's your point? That he needs to be told about what a dork he is? That that's the needed advice? Doubtful.

Also, who cares what kind of hat someone wears, fedora, beret, newsboy, trucker, as long as they take it off indoors.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:46 PM on December 18, 2007

"What is Casual Sex and What it is Not, by Women,"






you must be this hot ________________________







to ride this ride.






posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:47 PM on December 18, 2007 [31 favorites]

I think I have narrowed down who anonymous is. It's either:

http://www.metafilter.com/user/douchebag
or
http://www.metafilter.com/user/YHBT

I can't figure it out past that, though.
posted by dios at 2:47 PM on December 18, 2007

Also, who cares what kind of hat someone wears, fedora, beret, newsboy, trucker, as long as they take it off indoors.

Also, outdoors.
posted by dersins at 2:48 PM on December 18, 2007 [6 favorites]

*strolls in*

...LADIES...

*waits for the awesome casual sex*
posted by turaho at 2:48 PM on December 18, 2007 [7 favorites]

Good god. That was the most awful AskMe I've read in a long time, it seriously made me feel gross. He does come off like a total douchebag and I honestly hope I never meet him or anyone like him in the subway (again).
posted by agregoli at 2:48 PM on December 18, 2007

but going verbal George Foreman on him is more likely to make him stick to his guns

Stick to his guns, perhaps, but not to the handy George Foreman nonstick grill!

Besides, I personally think the OP would be a little more attractive as a sandwich, possibly layered with some bacon and avocado.

on preview: *flings self at turaho*
posted by scody at 2:50 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

I was saying that a few slaps are good, but going verbal George Foreman on him is more likely to make him stick to his guns than he is to change.

I disagree. If EVERYONE tells you that you're coming off jerky, and you ignore all that advice and say, ah, forget them, I'm actually suave, then I'm afraid the problem lies with you.
posted by agregoli at 2:51 PM on December 18, 2007

"A hat should be taken off when you greet a lady and left off for the rest of your life."--P.J. O'Rourke
posted by box at 2:53 PM on December 18, 2007 [9 favorites]

I just showed up because Jessamyn said in that other thread I could tell people they suck over here. Finally, I know where to go now!
posted by Skot at 2:54 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Is being a giant dork really so reprehensible? Ugh, you guys.

It's because we're all giant dorks, too -- it's like back in the good old days, when there would be a bunch of pariah dogs circling out at the edge of the campfire light, and then one of them gets injured and the others jump on it and tear it apart and all that's left in the morning is a bloodstained fedora.

We've all known this guy, and way too many of us have to some extent been this guy. (I do think, though, that if it is a big hoax, it would be only fair to unmask the hoaxer, and change their user name to "12 Inch Fedora.")
posted by Forktine at 2:55 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

He's obviously this guy.
posted by jbickers at 2:55 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

The lulz are strong with this one.
posted by grouse at 2:58 PM on December 18, 2007

Here's my apparently delete-worthy comment:

Axis II

Ditch the fedora. People hate bullshit, especially contrived pretentious bullshit.

SILENCED ALL MY LIFE indeed
posted by i_am_a_Jedi at 3:01 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]

If his frivolous prose brings out the same in the people answering the questions - tough.

Yeah, tough for them. They should get a timeout if they can't keep their vitriol to themselves. That's not what AskMe is for: read the notice at the bottom. And what the hell is wrong with fedoras?

Also, prumphænsn!
posted by languagehat at 3:05 PM on December 18, 2007

Hi Metafilter,

I just got out of a year long relationship (God, imagine that! A year! I suppose being too committed is one of my quirks!) because of how awesome I am, and I'd like to go bang a lot of chicks without having to do anything arduous like talk to them overly much or get to know them. I'm told I'm attractive, chicks dig me. Is that a good thing? I dress like a gangster, but with that signature flair that says "I know whether or not what I'm wearing is hipster passe or avant hipster but you'll have to wonder for yourself because I'm. Not. Telling." and I'm the kind of guy who's really rather witty and charming. My principle problem is that I don't really know how to let hot bitches know just how endearingly charming I really am without also letting them know how sensitive and commitment minded I am because (just for now!) I'm commitment-ed OUT what with the whopping year I just spent reminding someone daily of just how lucky they were to date me. Clearly I'm an outgoing sort because I've walked up to literally hundreds of women on the street and asked them out in ways that made them smile even while they rejected me for some wholly indiscernible reason. But all that mind-boggling rejection has left my sensitive heart feeling a tad wounded and I think I need some dirty meaningless fucking to mend the rift in my already modest ego.

Startlingly, the internet has completely failed to get me pussy! Here are some ads I posted (that you can respond to!!! wink wink.) that have done nothing for my prodigious libido. So I've come here to present my humble petition to those of a sensitive disposition and variable moral rectitude for advice. How on earth can a handsome, intelligent, adorably eccentric and sexually outstanding young man in an outdated hat get him some fuck time.

Answers I will accept are as follows:

1. Hey! I think you're pretty great! Here's my email address! Write me, tiger!
2. Just do your thang, man. You're like sexual honey to a hive of sexy bees. You'll get some in no time!
3. Love the hat. Do me.
4. I just responded to your craigslist ad! Fuck me!
5. Go to [bar x], where the girls are loose and love quirky guys!

Sincerely,

Far Too Adorably Shy to Possibly Post as Anything Other Than Anonymous
posted by shmegegge at 3:06 PM on December 18, 2007 [102 favorites]

We've all known this guy, and way too many of us have to some extent been this guy.

As I understand it, this guy claims to be a coo-worthy peripatetic hedonist who walks around in pin stripes and a fedora and walks up to random females and asks them to have sex with a faux. And he claims they usually smile to that shit. He also apparently goes to sex parties bumps uglies with something called a "fetish model."

No. I've never known that guy. And I certainly have never been him to any extent.
posted by dios at 3:07 PM on December 18, 2007 [4 favorites]

dersins wrote: And, despite what you appear to believe, women are actual people, not merely handy sheathes for your poniard.

Perceptions of arrogance, etc., aside... Where do you get the impression that he thinks women are bipedal cock scabbards and not people? There's a few turns of phrase in there that strike me as a bit icky (I never liked bed as a verb), but I don't see anything in there that's intrinsically dehumanizing to women. In fact, he says: I also enjoy treating people like human beings.

Casual sex isn't dehumanizing or objectifying in and of itself.
posted by CKmtl at 3:09 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

And what the hell is wrong with fedoras?

On 24-year-olds? Everything.
posted by dersins at 3:09 PM on December 18, 2007 [7 favorites]

* faux accent
posted by dios at 3:09 PM on December 18, 2007

This guy kind of reminds me of a few people I know. At least one is a serial pick-up artist and swinger, and the other is bipolar and is about this intense half the time, and spends the other half way down on himself.

I opted to not post in the thread since "Find other people with complimentary psychoses" isn't usually complimentary. Don't get me wrong, some people just live their lives like this, and the volume knob really is turned up to 11 all the time. I wish him luck, since even beyond the limits of geography, I am nearly certain we'd be interested in a completely different dating pool.
posted by mikeh at 3:09 PM on December 18, 2007

And what the hell is wrong with fedoras?

On 24-year-olds? Everything.

FAIL, YOU LOSE.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:11 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

As I understand it, this guy claims to be a coo-worthy peripatetic hedonist who walks around in pin stripes and a fedora and walks up to random females and asks them to have sex with a faux. And he claims they usually smile to that shit. He also apparently goes to sex parties bumps uglies with something called a "fetish model."

No. I've never known that guy. And I certainly have never been him to any extent.

I mostly meant "clueless and socially inept," which is a brush broad enough to tar a lot of people including myself.

And my friend in college (who wore a fedora, lacked an accent, but was otherwise mostly like this guy, but with good social skills) got lots of casual sex action -- there is plenty of market for cheese. Just not weirdo creepy cheese.
posted by Forktine at 3:12 PM on December 18, 2007

And what the hell is wrong with fedoras?

On 24-year-olds? Everything.

FAIL, YOU LOSE.

No no. Fedoras on 24 year olds are vain and desperate calls for attention. They're what that shitbag Mystery calls Peacocking or whatever the fuck it is. They're props and they're obnoxious. He might as well walk around in a tux all the time, or better yet a 19th century barrister's uniform.
posted by shmegegge at 3:14 PM on December 18, 2007 [25 favorites]

So I've come here to present my humble petition to those of a sensitive disposition and variable moral rectitude for advice.

Humble, sensitive rectitude seeks hipster who's not afraid to wear a hat indoors. If you know what I mean.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:14 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

So fedoras are right out, eh?

How about the old eyepatch and monocle set? That's still hip, right?

You grownups and your miserable propriety of dress. Conformity isn't the answer, and this guy's dress isn't a problem. He shouldn't have couched his self-description in such precious terms, though, I grant that. IONe does not go around saying "Nice to meet you, I have a cloak, five corsets, etc. etc. in my wardrobe."
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:15 PM on December 18, 2007

Happy Birthday dersins.
posted by nola at 3:16 PM on December 18, 2007

"One"

Gotta get that dialing wand...
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:16 PM on December 18, 2007

I'm really quite creepy:

*rereads question*

*notes: born in America, sports pseudo-Euro accent, fedora, dances, and has wacky stories*

Yes. Yes you are.
posted by quin at 3:16 PM on December 18, 2007

You are all wrong about fedoras, and I have proof. Say anything else about it, and I swear to heaven, it won't be Santa coming down your chimney on Christmas Eve. I have ways.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:18 PM on December 18, 2007 [9 favorites]

dios: ... walks up to random females and asks them to have sex with a faux.

No, he says he walks up to "women on subways and city streets (mostly in NYC) to tell them them they're gorgeous, and ask them out on the spot" and "it's never proceeded past a coffee even if they're single".

He's asking them out. Probably for coffee. He hopes it'll lead to sex, but it hasn't. This isn't the same as saying "Hey, nice shoes. Wanna fuck?"
posted by CKmtl at 3:18 PM on December 18, 2007

My favorite and only librarian-related t-shirt reads:

"Check out a librarian: they're good for circulation!"

It's got a picture of a cat reading a book on it.

Double-punetration is pretty much the most radicalist thing ever.
posted by fishfucker at 3:19 PM on December 18, 2007 [8 favorites]

much as I love being put in the position of criticizing your beau or agreeing with you, I'll say this: People can wear whatever the fuck they want in vegas. It doesn't count, there. If someone dresses like that going to buy groceries or get drinks at at dive bar it's silly, unless they're getting on in years in which case it's awesome.
posted by shmegegge at 3:20 PM on December 18, 2007

::croons:: I'm making a list, and checking it twice, if you don't think fedoras are nice, TPS is coming to town....
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:22 PM on December 18, 2007 [4 favorites]

ok ok, fedoras are sexy.
posted by shmegegge at 3:23 PM on December 18, 2007

I love Fedoras, I just have the sense to know I don't look right in one.
posted by nola at 3:24 PM on December 18, 2007

Afraid I'm with TPS on this one. Of course, I sometimes wear a fedora, myself. Although, I suppose I'm more in shmegegge's "getting on in years" category, and I'm afraid I had to stop riding bicycles altogether to accomodate my enormous... vocabulary.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:26 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

ambrosia voyeur, i'm of the belief that people can wear whatever the fuck they want but this guy is looking to score and it sounds like the pinstripes and the fedora aren't doing him any favors (not that they are his only problems here…). if he can wear the fedora and pinstripes and get away with it, ups to him but if he can't wear the shit out of it and he tries to pick up on me, talking like he writes, i'm gonna think he's a creepy piece of cheese.
posted by violetk at 3:26 PM on December 18, 2007

I think Mulder and Scully should have worn those, so that whenever they kicked down a door they could rush in with their guns out and yell, "Freeze!

"Fedora agents!"
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:26 PM on December 18, 2007 [12 favorites]

Fedoras really worked for Duran Duran, I'm just sayin'.
posted by tristeza at 3:26 PM on December 18, 2007

ThePinkSuperhero : You are all wrong about fedoras, and I have proof.

I think you misunderstand, there is nothing wrong with fedoras in and of themselves, it's just that like samurai swords, they tend to attract a specific kind of person. And while both katanas and fedoras have a long and rich history and are prized by collectors and aficionados alike, the kind of person that naturally gravitates to them is exactly the kind of person that should never be seen in public with one.

For the record, I have both. And I am that one in a million long shot that can pull either (or both) off and still look awesome.

I think this somehow means that I'm a highlander now.
posted by quin at 3:27 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

So Stynx is the OP? Damn, I thought I knew the guy.
posted by mullacc at 3:27 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's not the hat - it's the person underneath it. I can't believe you idiots are arguing over whether an inanimate object is sexy or not.
posted by oh pollo! at 3:28 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

Death of the Hat
posted by i_am_a_Jedi at 3:28 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

cortex: ugh
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:29 PM on December 18, 2007

I have proof

OMG stynxno posted that question?
posted by dersins at 3:30 PM on December 18, 2007

I'd like it if everyone quit arguing about the fedora and started arguing about whether it's a hoax.
posted by box at 3:31 PM on December 18, 2007

Yeah, well I'd like it if everyone quit arguing about the fedora and started favoriting my awesome and hysterically funny paraphrasing of the dude's question up above, but we can't always get what we want because it's not christmas until TPS kills you.
posted by shmegegge at 3:33 PM on December 18, 2007 [7 favorites]

You are all wrong about fedoras, and I have proof.

Still not convinced. I'm with everyone on the "ditch the fedora" campaign. They're like instant sex appeal killers.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 3:34 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

I'm with everyone on the "ditch the fedora" campaign. They're like instant sex appeal killers.

My wife begs to differ.
posted by languagehat at 3:37 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

Yeah, well I'd like it if everyone quit arguing about the fedora and started favoriting my awesome and hysterically funny paraphrasing of the dude's question up above

Done before you even posted that comment. But I'm the only one :|.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 3:38 PM on December 18, 2007

that's just not fair. It's like someone saying "I think Chess is boring" and Bobby fucking Fisher comes in and says "I beg to differ."
posted by shmegegge at 3:38 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

cortex: ugh

is the sound that the mother makes when the baby breaks, yes.

When I was typing that out, it reminded me—I've been replaying Deus Ex for the first time in years, and man is the voice acting in the Hong Kong segment bad. Just this horrific mushmouthed I'ra Speaky English Inner Chinee Assent thing going on, and pretty much all of the incidental characters must have been done by the same one or two voice actors. 'Fedora agess!' is exactly what it'd sound like, if that line was in the game.

Related, but more plainly hilarious: whoever did the voice acting for most of the UNATCO guardsmen sounds a lot like Stormy from Sealab 2021. I keep expecting them to blow things up just for the fun of it or whatever.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:40 PM on December 18, 2007

shmegegge is MeTa's own Horatio W. Hoo Doo.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:42 PM on December 18, 2007

He might as well walk around in a tux all the time, or better yet a 19th century barrister's uniform.

Dude, I'm straight as Bill Clinton and I'd fuck that.

Only if he'd let me call him Blackadder
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:43 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

So, this dude goes, "Hey gang, This is me! This is what I'm about! This is how I do things! Your opinion please?" And people give him their honest opinions and are like "Wow, are you an unbelievable douche!" I see nothing wrong with this scenario. He asked for it, he got it. Comparing him and us to Hitler and Churchill: come on now.

As far as I'm concerned he got responses equal in bravado to that with which the question was posed.
posted by sneakin at 3:46 PM on December 18, 2007 [4 favorites]

Ah, MetaFilter. You just don't get it, do you? Judging from the post, one only has to deduce that the Goons on Somethingawful are getting back at us for all the times an FPP in the blue linked to their forums. Rather than dispense the usual epithets and taunts, they skillfully orchestrated an elaborate prank worthy of Ricky Skaggs himself.

And we fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

It's the only plausible explanation. The other option would involve all the 14-year-olds on Xbox Live pooling together five bucks for an account, so they could troll us beyond their usual fashion. However amusing, I can't see that happening.

Face it, we angered the forces behind one of the shadowy corners of the Tubes, and they've sprung their trap with little effort.
posted by Smart Dalek at 3:49 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]

Phone conversation I just had:

Me: "Yeah, I've been reading stuff on the Web. Some people on Metafilter are arguing over whether this guy who wears a fedora is a dork."

Girlfriend: "He's a dork. When I was thirteen, I went through a period of wearing a fedora, and I was a dork. It was a little too big for me, because it was my father's fedora. And you know what? My father was a dork."
posted by L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg at 3:49 PM on December 18, 2007 [28 favorites]

But what few sex parties I've attended have always been fascinating and hilarious, even though nine times out of ten I ended up reading books (I come prepared) or dancing.

Sex parties. Fascinating and hilarious. But he read books AND danced!
posted by wafaa at 3:49 PM on December 18, 2007 [7 favorites]

Seems like the ground has pretty well been covered.

But I would say people are getting mad because there are a lot of folks here who value intelligence and learning for their own sake. And here's a guy using his alleged intellect like a high-schooler sophomore uses a 12 pack of Bush Light and being on the football team, except with slightly less subtlety.

Also, sorry jessamyn, but describing this kind of person as "nice" is the thing that will baffle men about women until the end of time. Assuming he is real, he absolutely positively makes it clear he cares about nothing but getting laid. He manages to be incredibly disingenuous and incredibly obvious at the same time. He tries to take on the role of underdog while simultaneously bragging about his superiority. It's like Bill Gates applying for welfare. That's why pretty much every guy here wants to slap him around, verbally if not physically.
posted by drjimmy11 at 3:50 PM on December 18, 2007 [6 favorites]

Fedora good. Fedora bad¹.

¹What I imagine OP looks like.
posted by null terminated at 3:51 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

The World Famous: Or, alternatively, cheers on having crafted two humorous fake craigslist ads and one thought-provoking hoax of an AskMe thread.

T'was my initial reaction ... and remains so.
posted by ericb at 3:51 PM on December 18, 2007

Can we please have a metafilter site where metafilter dorks can arrange casual sex with other metafilter dorks?

Then we could make fun of questions like this more often.
posted by medusa at 3:54 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's the "natural accent" thing that gets me. I have known this type before. They usually cut their teeth on Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, and Monty Python, and no matter where they are from --- they might as well be from a West Virginia coal-mining town --- they begin to style themselves as an Edwardian boulevardier almost as soon as they get to college.

Although I think the poster is probably a very nice guy, he really does need to be told how repulsive people like him come across to others.
posted by jayder at 3:56 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

I'd hat it.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:57 PM on December 18, 2007 [7 favorites]

Ah, shit, Godwin's law.

I would like to propose Mottram's Law: As an Ask Metafilter discussion grows longer, the probability of a diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome approaches one.

Every sodding thread I see, someone suggests that.
posted by jack_mo at 3:59 PM on December 18, 2007 [43 favorites]

> And what the hell is wrong with fedoras?
>
> On 24-year-olds? Everything.
>
> FAIL, YOU LOSE.
> posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:11 PM on December 18 [+] [!]

Everything under the fedora?
posted by jfuller at 4:00 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Isn't Justin Timberlake known for this?

Wait...with his touring, he's peripatetic...he tears up the dance floor...surely he has trouble with women...

We have a new MeFi's Own!
posted by Durin's Bane at 4:02 PM on December 18, 2007

Does it change anyone's opinion that what he's looking for are casual sex shenanigans? Not just casual sex per se.
posted by salvia at 4:03 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Fedoras are mostly pretentious but there's a time and place for them. The question feels like a hoax; the craigslist ads feel like they're calculated to make me want to puke and they were posted minutes apart. But if it isn't, well...they make me want to puke to the degree that I worry about anyone who doesn't feel so moved. But then I don't have the target body parts, so, (with apologies to cortex for stealing his idiom) hey.
posted by Kwine at 4:04 PM on December 18, 2007

also:

oceanography in the Pacific Ocean
That sounds like it was written by Ralph Wiggum.

This wanderlust is the bee's knees
And now grandpa Simpson.

He's an offensively poorl writer.
posted by drjimmy11 at 4:04 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

"poor." haha.
posted by drjimmy11 at 4:04 PM on December 18, 2007

This guy kind of reminds me of a few people I know. At least one is a serial pick-up artist and swinger, and the other is bipolar and is about this intense half the time, and spends the other half way down on himself.

I too knew this guy, right down to the fedora -- he also probably owns a lot of Bettie Page memorabilia, a shelf of beat novels he's mostly never read, and the Tom Waits catalog. Mommy never loved him. It's very, very sad.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:05 PM on December 18, 2007 [6 favorites]

He might as well walk around in a tux all the time, or better yet a 19th century barrister's uniform.

If a guy walked in wearing a barrister's wig and saying "...LADIES...", I would definitely talk to him.

A fedora, no. (Unless he was a silver-fox fictional archaeologist, or a 1930s rumrunner on the lam.)
posted by thehmsbeagle at 4:08 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

Bravo to anyone who owns "On the Road" and has never read it. That's really the way to go with that book.

I can't manage small talk for the life of me, don't match any standard of hip (no drugs, infinitely obscure interests), and regularly provoke comments about my 'intensity.'

I bet he also tells job interviewers he "works too hard."
posted by drjimmy11 at 4:09 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]

mullac wrote:
> That was the AskMe version of "My penis is so big that it's
> uncomfortable to ride a bicycle. What other problems will
> my big penis and I encounter?"

drezdn wrote:
> Beat to it by mullac (we need a word for these questions).

In Australia, that would be known as a Dorothy Dixer. Although in this case, Dorothy Dicks would be more appropriate.
posted by tim_in_oz at 4:09 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

the craigslist ads feel like they're calculated to make me want to puke and they were posted minutes apart.

More to the point, they were posted hundreds of miles apart, in the San Diego Craigslist and the San Francisco Craigslist.

He's willing to grab his fedora and his pinstripe and drive anywhere in California for some pussy. He's that desperate.
posted by jayder at 4:12 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

Well, he's clearly never going to party with Klangklangston.

And ironically, knowing what klang does for a living, partying with klang might bring anonymous into contact with exactly the audience of casual hookup girls he's looking for.

hey wait, so why don't I hang out with klang?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:13 PM on December 18, 2007

He's willing to grab his fedora and his pinstripe and drive anywhere in California for some pussy.

well, he is peripatetic…
posted by violetk at 4:13 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

So straight you eat your hot dogs from the middle?
posted by SteveTheRed at 4:15 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

He's willing to grab his fedora and his pinstripe and drive anywhere in California for some pussy.

It's oddly formal attire when trolling for casual pussy.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:16 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

(last comment in response to robocop is bleeding, way up above) Bad Steve! Use Preview!
posted by SteveTheRed at 4:18 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

he also probably owns [...] the Tom Waits catalog.

Probably just Rain Dogs. [NOT RAIN DOGS-IST!]
posted by scody at 4:20 PM on December 18, 2007

Only if he'd let me call him Blackadder

Close, but no cigar. His name is Ackbladder.
posted by The World Famous at 6:47 PM on December 18 [+] [!]

Put on your pinstripes and take me right now.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:24 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Put on your pinstripes and take me right now.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:24 PM on December 18 [+] [!]

You know, robocop, I'm told he has a very good line in rough shag.
posted by psmith at 4:27 PM on December 18, 2007

Insert "fedora" for panflute
posted by i_am_a_Jedi at 4:28 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]

It's the "natural accent" thing that makes me think this is a hoax. It pushes buttons and ratchets up the irritating persona scale, but people with fake accents steadfastly pretend they don't know they have them.
posted by yarrow at 4:34 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Gah. He should be banned just for "God's soylent green earth." And in a personal ad, no less.
posted by koeselitz at 4:36 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Did you know...a DORK is a whale penis?
I recently learned this fact, and it stares me in the face whenever I see someone using dork to mean socially-awkward.
that is all.
posted by nomisxid at 4:38 PM on December 18, 2007

a DORK is a whale penis

No, it's not.
posted by dersins at 4:43 PM on December 18, 2007

Lore: I beg to differ.

I have a catalog of fedoras, and I am most certainly NOT a dork.
posted by absalom at 4:44 PM on December 18, 2007

Did you know...a DORK is a whale penis?

And a "dude" is an elephant's butt hair. Middle school was good times.
posted by Durin's Bane at 4:46 PM on December 18, 2007

I like my urban legends with pin-stripes!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:47 PM on December 18, 2007

Please pardon this interruption for an important message:




Everyone needs a hug.




Thank you, proceed...
posted by carsonb at 4:47 PM on December 18, 2007

A "Duran of fedoras," mayhaps?
posted by scody at 4:53 PM on December 18, 2007

Duran Duran of Fedoras
posted by Stynxno at 4:54 PM on December 18, 2007

Shrug, I don't care if it is languagehat, the fedora is too much.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:54 PM on December 18, 2007

I suspect that you guys might be the victim of a troll here, the only other plausible explanation is that all of humanity needs to be scrubbed from the face of the earth. I'm down for whatever. I like the phrase "natural accent" though, it's perfectly obnoxious. Stynxno is the rare youngish dude who rocks a fedora in an handsome way, but if your man wore it daily, instead of on a special dressup occasion, he would go from the charming punkrock scamp of mefi to the dungeon master you sprint to avoid, charming as he is.
posted by Divine_Wino at 4:58 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

So, this dude goes, "Hey gang, This is me! This is what I'm about! This is how I do things! Your opinion please?" And people give him their honest opinions and are like "Wow, are you an unbelievable douche!" I see nothing wrong with this scenario. He asked for it, he got it.

Except he isn't coming for validation, he's coming for advice.
posted by BigSky at 4:58 PM on December 18, 2007

I betcha he scores based on this.
posted by jonmc at 4:59 PM on December 18, 2007

That show will never get off the ground.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 5:03 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

hahahahahahah fedora oh my god world's biggest douchebag
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:05 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

God damn it, schmegegge, you're not allowed to celebrate April Fool's Day in December. Thanks a million for granting my holiday wish, though.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:05 PM on December 18, 2007

Oh, and Adam Savage wears a fedora

when Johnny Ladykiller manages to get paid big bucks for blowing shit up on national TV then he can wear his precious hat
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:06 PM on December 18, 2007 [23 favorites]

I wanna say, if this is a hoax? The hoaxer is my new personal hero.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:07 PM on December 18, 2007

Between this post and the latest celeb gossip, today is totally LOL and I love everyone.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:09 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

OUTRAGE! THE INTERNET IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!
posted by ersatz at 5:09 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

when Johnny Ladykiller manages to get paid big bucks for blowing shit up on national TV then he can wear his precious hat

*hits "favorite" a thousand times*
posted by scody at 5:10 PM on December 18, 2007

Well I'm a sucker for fedoras. I like old photos of NYC because all the men are wearing them. Men are 100% hotter in hats. Except, I suspect, pinstripe boy.

But I can't believe anyone took that post seriously. He brings books to sex parties? Puh-lease. It is not possible to be that lame.
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:11 PM on December 18, 2007

If this is a hoax, it's got to be a really mean, "I'll pose as an enemy of mine on an online forum and let the masses shred him to pieces, publicly!" hoax.

Because I have definitely known guys who were "that guy" down to the costume, mannerisms, phraseology, madonna accent, and everything else mentioned in this question.
posted by availablelight at 5:12 PM on December 18, 2007

He brings books to sex parties? Puh-lease. It is not possible to be that lame.

I suppose it would depend on the book. and of course whether he was going to read them or use them to spank somebody.
posted by jonmc at 5:15 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

He brings books to sex parties? Puh-lease. It is not possible to be that lame.

Oh, wow, on review, that kind of is a tip-off. But...who among us can honestly say they had the stomach to read that far? I'm not even sure I got through the first paragraph.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:17 PM on December 18, 2007

That was the AskMe version of "My penis is so big that it's uncomfortable to ride a bicycle. What other problems will my big penis and I encounter?"

Or the female version: "I'm so beautiful I can't juggle all the men in my life. Please recommend a software program that will track my social life".

Or one of my favorites (I'm paraphrasing an actual post): "I have such thick gorgeous hair. My boyfriend tells me I look like a porn star. People in the street stop me to tell me how pretty it is. Problem is, I can't find a ponytail holder that will keep it up. Help me, Metafilter!"
posted by Evangeline at 5:22 PM on December 18, 2007 [8 favorites]

Bearing in mind that I have considerable, if not infallible, superpowers: I do not believe this is a hoax, so maybe stop worrying about that side of things.
posted by cortex (staff) at 5:24 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

I can't decide whether to be disappointed...
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:25 PM on December 18, 2007

"My social algorithms are cribbed from something a little more polysyllabic than Jugs and Barely Legal

Well, he's clearly never going to party with Klangklangston."

Au contraire, mon frere! I took that little bit to mean that he reads Hustler and Hustler Fantasies, which are both jam-packed with the polysyllabics. I mean, there's "fuckhole" and "meatstick" and "lovepit," all words I've had to type and consult a style guide over! (Also, it's "sapphic" when referencing lesbians, no caps).

Though hanging out with me is actually not a very good way to meet the pornorific, as I'm pretty removed (both by accident and design) from the models. Hanging out with me is better if your goal is to get drunk in cheap bars or to watch games from bleacher seats.

As to the OP—There's a guy on our block who keeps hitting on my girlfriend while he's walking his dog. The guy has, according to my girlfriend, a ludicrously affected Italian accent, despite being a white guy from Orange County. His claim to fame is that he was on The Big Bang Theory, which he mentions every time he sees my girlfriend.

She then comes home and mocks him mercilessly. I assume that Cap'n Fedora is roughly the same guy.
posted by klangklangston at 5:28 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

OMG LITTLE SPEARS IS PREGGERS AWESOME!
posted by klangklangston at 5:31 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

"meatstick" and "lovepit,"

Not to mention 'dirty onion ring.' All of these, incidnetally, are items on the appetizer menu of Thank God It's Fuckdays.
posted by jonmc at 5:31 PM on December 18, 2007 [6 favorites]

klang: that's LI'L SPEARS, y'all!

Is it evil that my first thought was "I bet K-Fed's the father of that one, too?"
posted by scody at 5:34 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

Apparently Spearses breed in vapidity.
posted by jonmc at 5:36 PM on December 18, 2007

All of these, incidnetally, are items on the appetizer menu of Thank God It's Fuckdays.

Sweatermeat? Mayonnaise pen? Baby batter?
posted by Snyder at 5:38 PM on December 18, 2007

Heh. Per TMZ: "She tells the mag that the father is Casey Aldridge, who she has been dating for some time and first met at church."

Well, if not there, then no doubt at an abstinence-only sex "ed" class.

On preview:

Sweatermeat?

Is that like something you knit for a sausage?
posted by scody at 5:39 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

shmeggege and TheWorldFamous made me spit my drinks at the screen. I prefer shmeggege's question to the real one and plan to use "a boy band of fedoras" at every opportunity.

I need more favorites for this thread.

Oh, and fedoras are fine. Pinstripe suits are fine. Pinstripes and fedoras together are only appropriate if you are Bid Bad Voodoo Daddy, a pimp, or a time traveler from the Roaring Twenties.
posted by misha at 5:43 PM on December 18, 2007

Is it evil that my first thought was "I bet K-Fed's the father of that one, too?"

POPOZAO POPOZAO!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:43 PM on December 18, 2007

Did you know...a DORK is a whale penis?

And San Diego means "whale's vagina."
posted by dirigibleman at 5:43 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Bearing in mind that I have considerable, if not infallible, superpowers: I do not believe this is a hoax, so maybe stop worrying about that side of things.

Then God help us all.
posted by Divine_Wino at 5:46 PM on December 18, 2007

Did you know...a DORK is a whale penis?

It's true! It's scientifically proven. It's a known fact. (video, NSFW)
posted by jason's_planet at 5:53 PM on December 18, 2007

Knowing that it is actually a fedora is really messing up my worldview.

There is no "it." I got hooked on hats while hanging out in Ireland with an Oxford grad student who was both pretentious and a stone drunk; he had a trilby and a Panama, and would let me wear whichever he wasn't wearing, and I decided I needed hats. So when I got back to the States I began hanging out in hat stores; I started with a fedora (the US equivalent of a trilby), saved up for a Panama, and went on to Borsalinos, Greek sailor caps, you name it. (Partial list here; I really need to update it and add pictures.) These days I mostly wear Greek sailor caps when it's cold (a couple of them were gifts from naxosaxur—thanx, nax!) and baseball caps when it's hot, but I love my fedora and wear it on special occasions.
posted by languagehat at 6:02 PM on December 18, 2007

There is no "it."

languageshats would clearly have been the better choice, then, for at least two reasons.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:04 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

I thankfully have never encountered such a person. I know this becuase I am not currently incarcerated for manslaughter.
posted by tkchrist at 6:04 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]

women are actual people, not merely handy sheathes for your poniard.

Except for the FLILPs, of course.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:05 PM on December 18, 2007

languageshats would clearly have been the better choice, then, for at least two reasons.

You just want to get "shat" into my username, and you think I won't notice. BUT I DID.
posted by languagehat at 6:06 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

If not a fedora, what kind of hat should I wear on my head when onstage with my little ukulele?
posted by davejay at 6:11 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

I love my fedora

Fedoras look cool on some people, but when I wear your fedora-type headgear I look like Matt Drudge, only less gay.

[NOT GAYIST. OR DRUDGEIST]
posted by jonmc at 6:13 PM on December 18, 2007

*squints at hat pictures*

Other than the band, is there an appreciable difference between a trilby and a borsalino? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.
posted by CKmtl at 6:23 PM on December 18, 2007

Fedoras look cool on some people

Who? Please submit a person currently alive who is not awesome looking wearing anything. IOW, you can't say: Johnny Depp.
posted by tkchrist at 6:25 PM on December 18, 2007

Not a hoax? Ok.

*pukes*
posted by Kwine at 6:27 PM on December 18, 2007

Also, Thank God It's Fuckday's is merging with it's competitor, In-The-Back Steakhouse.
posted by jonmc at 6:29 PM on December 18, 2007

The only way the OP could be any more devastatingly attractive is if he added spats and suspenders. Now that'd inspire a gal to dish out some "spectator pumps," if you get my meaning.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:36 PM on December 18, 2007

I always figured Languagehat was more of an irish pub cap kinda guy.
posted by puke & cry at 6:36 PM on December 18, 2007

this just seems to be playa hatin' to me

I thought his question was how can he actually get to *be* a playa? Wannabee-playa hatin', perhaps?

Fedora size doesn't matter.

It does if you're into brimming
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:44 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]

Uh oh... Do I smell a love connection? Someone needs to send our friend an invitation.
posted by drpynchon at 6:45 PM on December 18, 2007

I am reading the thread now. Anonymous is like the Dwight Shrute of casanovas.
posted by brownpau at 6:48 PM on December 18, 2007 [14 favorites]

He brings books to sex parties? Puh-lease. It is not possible to be that lame.
It's only lame if you bring them to read. Maybe he's really short and needs them to stand on for certain positions.
posted by dg at 6:56 PM on December 18, 2007

Upon reflection, the way this discussion has gone is kind of sad. I believe the poster, when he wrote his anonymous question, probably anticipated a lot of very supportive responses, along the lines of "you sound really cool, like you'd be a great catch." And he was completely blindsided by the mocking and derision that blew back at him almost as soon as he pressed "post your question." I understand the situation he's in --- he thought he was being charming, and funny, and cute, and he expected us all to be charmed by his Craigslist posts. The thing is, in the real world, he probably has good friends who think he is really funny and charming, and he is not used to having people mock his eccentricities as mercilessly as we are here. If we knew him in meatspace, we would probably like him. This is a situation where we are turned off by a few things (the faux accent, the fedora and pinstripes, the way he makes passes at women in public, thinking that it's admirable boldness rather than just douchebaggery) and we using this AskMe as an opportunity to slam the shit out of those things, without considering that he's probably a pretty nice and decent guy who has some growing up to do.
posted by jayder at 6:59 PM on December 18, 2007 [18 favorites]

Maybe they're how-to books.
posted by Evangeline at 6:59 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

How to what?
posted by jonmc at 7:02 PM on December 18, 2007

Um, I don't know - maybe "How to Wear a Fedora"?
posted by Evangeline at 7:04 PM on December 18, 2007

DVDA for Dummies
posted by null terminated at 7:06 PM on December 18, 2007

"How to Wear a Fedora"?

Step 1: Place fedora on your head. Do not hang it from any other appendages. We can't stress that enough. The hat will be happier and so will you.
posted by jonmc at 7:06 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Well he is reading these books at sex parties. God knows what he gets up to with that fedora.
posted by Evangeline at 7:07 PM on December 18, 2007

that question has troll written all over it - and you guys fell for it

it's a pretty good one i admit, but ... well, it's still a bit obvious - he brings books to read at sex parties if they get too dull?

really?

suckers
posted by pyramid termite at 7:12 PM on December 18, 2007

he brings books to read at sex parties if they get too dull?

Maybe he brings the Bible so he can damn the rejecting multitudes.
posted by jonmc at 7:16 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

From reading the front page portion of the AskMe, I knew that this person was either faking it or beyond the possibility of critical introspection. WCityMike is wrong.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 7:16 PM on December 18, 2007

Well from the looks of this thread middle Tennessee isn't the only place in the country where there isn't anything to do on a Tuesday night. *drinks beer hits refresh*
posted by nola at 7:17 PM on December 18, 2007

jayder, that's a tremendously sympathetic and charitable understanding of the situation. I wish that I was similarly generous. I'm not, but I'll at least refrain from further derision. Though every bone in my body screams for a closing joke here, that would be needlessly mean.

*ignores screaming bones*
posted by Kwine at 7:17 PM on December 18, 2007

I bet it's "Ulysses". Oh yes, I can see him now, leaning back in a leather club chair, book in hand, naked except for the fedora tilted jauntily to one side...
posted by Evangeline at 7:22 PM on December 18, 2007 [6 favorites]

he's probably a pretty nice and decent guy who has some growing up to do.

My feeling exactly.

He's admitted he's a dweeb and doesn't quite get the "how to meet women" thing, but he's got a sense of humor and he's *24* for christ's sake. He's able to use CL to get laid if he needs to but he'd like to know how to meet women in person now that he's not a 21 year old guy talking to women on the streets.

Who here hasn't had an annoying affectation at one point or another?

- monty python skit quoting?
- alien something or other?
- moleskine?
- fixie?
- t-shirts with code on them?
- giant belt buckles?
- hemp anything?
- TEE-vee?
- snakes on a plane nonsense?
- stuff to put in your clean hair to make it look unwashed?
- jewlery made out of perfectly functional items that were taken apart to make jewelry out of?
- leatherman?

My point is it's all relative and clearly the metafilter hipster dweeb aesthetic is not this guy's aesthetic but he's not trying to sleep with YOU. He just wants advice and I don't see why that has to come with a whole steaming pile of YOU'RE A DOUCHEBAG. He's a misfit, he's our people,

WHAT
THE
FUCK
NERDS?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:24 PM on December 18, 2007 [71 favorites]

he's not trying to sleep with YOU.

Nonsense. Everyone's trying to sleep with me.
posted by jonmc at 7:26 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

(the US equivalent of a trilby)

Not so! A trilby has a thinner brim than a fedora.

Other than the band, is there an appreciable difference between a trilby and a borsalino? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.

Borsalino is a Italian milliner that makes (made?) fedoras, not a type of hat.

I'm slightly disturbed that I, a non-hat wearer, know this.
posted by jack_mo at 7:27 PM on December 18, 2007

I am actually not all that nerdy.

THIS IS WHERE I GET BANNED. ISN'T IT.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 7:27 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Between this post and the latest celeb gossip, today is totally LOL and I love everyone.

why because she look intersting
posted by ludwig_van at 7:28 PM on December 18, 2007

Hey, back off. I started using Moleskines before they got annoyingly trendy.

I don't want to go on the cart. I feel happy! I feel happy!
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:30 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

- leatherman?

When did a leatherman become an annoying affectation? Is it only an annoying affectation if you wear it hanging from your belt, or does it still count if you leave it in a bag or a drawer, ready for the moment when you need to remove the stone from a horses hoof or whatever the fuck the various appendages do?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:31 PM on December 18, 2007

I'm not a nerd. I'm in nerd orbit. You people are my planet.
posted by Evangeline at 7:31 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]

Borsalino is a Italian milliner that makes (made?) fedoras

Still makes. This year is their 175th year making said hats. I'm embarrassed to admit that I own one, but that's only because, stylistically, I'm seeking to emulate an orthodox jew.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:34 PM on December 18, 2007

Okay, you can make fun of timelessly hot fedoras, you philistines, but lay off the spats. I happen to be wearing these fairly spatsy shoes as I type.
(Christ, maybe I should answer one of those CL ads, huh?)
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:45 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

If not a fedora, what kind of hat should I wear on my head when onstage with my little ukulele?

What are you, Jens Lekman?

Also, what Jessamyn said. Yeah, the dude's post made me roll my eyes a little, but people saying "Ugh, you're trying waaay too hard (unlike me, I don't try hard at all, just look at me right now not trying)" are worse. I suspect that if the dude hadn't been anonymous people wouldn't have been so busy tripping over themselves to call him a douchebag in the cleverest but still not-trying-too-hard kind of way.
posted by ludwig_van at 7:45 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Also, my moleskine and necklace made from a bike chain are not annoying Jess. Jeez. The rest of the list I can sneer happily at.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:46 PM on December 18, 2007

I love those shoes, but kitten heels look pretty silly on a man, fedora or no fedora.
posted by Evangeline at 7:47 PM on December 18, 2007

I'm seeking to emulate an orthodox jew.

Always a good look.

I just had a look at their website, and the fur trimmed helmet they offer, presumably for Vespa Lambretta riders is fucking deranged.

- fixie

You can get special Japanese selvage jeans to wear when riding your fixed wheel bike now. According to Mayan prophecies, as soon as someone wears a pair, on a fixed wheel, sporting a fedora, the world will end.
posted by jack_mo at 7:48 PM on December 18, 2007

the only thing longer then this post is that fellas penis
posted by edgeways at 7:49 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Please. Forgive me for not feeling bad about thinking someone's a douche for dressing up in fucking pinstripes and a fedora trying to pick up chicks. Motherfucker ain't my people.
posted by puke & cry at 7:52 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

Also, I categorically deny that my hair has ever been clean.
posted by jonmc at 7:53 PM on December 18, 2007

He's a misfit, he's our people

He's the elf who wants to be a dentist.
posted by CKmtl at 7:53 PM on December 18, 2007 [4 favorites]

When I was 19, I bought a fedora. A really nice one. I loved my hat. Man, I was the shit. Then I wore it around. Eyes rolled. There were intermittent audible gasps of dismay from close friends.

I didn't get it. Can't everyone see what a great, beautiful hat this is? That's quality felt, right there. Check out the lining: see, my initals! Embossed in gold! Isn't that cool?

Then I saw pictures. Oh God, what was I thinking?

I still have that fedora. It hangs on a hat tree along with a clown wig, as a reminder of youthful hubris.

I'm not getting rid of the curling moustache, though. It makes me look suave and debonair.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 7:54 PM on December 18, 2007 [4 favorites]

WHAT
THE
FUCK
NERDS?

Favorited x10K, and saved as a keyboard macro.
posted by ottereroticist at 7:57 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

What do you mean, affectation? Ask anybody, and they'll tell you I've had these gold lamé gloves and cigarette holder ever since I CLEPed out of Montessori school.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:57 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

When did a leatherman become an annoying affectation?

Maybe she means being a leatherman is an annoying affectation.
posted by ottereroticist at 7:57 PM on December 18, 2007

I wonder if this is the same guy.
posted by brownpau at 7:59 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

The green is just lame that way. I'm sure anonymous isn't going to be devastated that a bunch of cool kids on the internet don't like his sense of style. But then I was much more concerned by the possible abuse of pinstripes than the wearing of stupid, ironic hats. Pinstripes can be a total disaster if not treated with care and respect.
posted by nixerman at 8:00 PM on December 18, 2007

I considered myself completely unqualified to give advice in that thread because not only did I used to wear my grandpa's fedora, I also wore fishing lures on my granny boots. Pot. Kettle. PG Tips.
posted by maudlin at 8:00 PM on December 18, 2007

I think a lot of you are missing something crucial.

It's not wrong to gang up with your friends and hurt someone if you don't like them! It's only wrong when someone else gangs up with their friends and hurts you or your friends.
posted by "Tex" Connor and the Wily Roundup Boys at 8:02 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

My point is it's all relative and clearly the metafilter hipster dweeb aesthetic is not this guy's aesthetic but he's not trying to sleep with YOU. He just wants advice and I don't see why that has to come with a whole steaming pile of YOU'RE A DOUCHEBAG. He's a misfit, he's our people,

Personally I wish him well in that I don't wish him any specific harm, but my own personal aesthetic is strongly adverse to people who randomly tell women they are gorgeous with the expectation of sex and not only want people to know how smart and cute and geeky they are, but also want me to know they take books to sex parties, as long as we're on aesthetics. Feh.


Who here hasn't had an annoying affectation at one point or another?

I've had several, but never all of them all at once, as if a fratboy made an evil baby with a kid who graduated early with a CS degree and just learned about Drakkar Noir, having a bottle of Jose Cuervo on hand and fuckswings. I don't even understand the question really. Couldn't it be boiled down to:

How do I bone, with no strings attached, for free?

The rest seems like the ramblings of a cokehead in a pirate shirt and vinyl kneeboots with an unread copy of a Lawrence Durrell novel clamped firmly under their arm. Ain't my people, I like my nerds with a little less hubris and the furtive smell of unused pineapple lube.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:04 PM on December 18, 2007 [16 favorites]

Anyone showing up to meetups in a fedora and pinstripes now is just asking for trouble.
posted by drezdn at 8:04 PM on December 18, 2007

I also wore fishing lures on my granny boots

Is that Canadian for 'I wore Grolsch bottle tops on my Doc Martins'?
posted by jack_mo at 8:06 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Granted, at heart I am a prude and a judgmental bastard, so maybe the answer is just:

Change everything about your outward personality and act like you care about the girl you want to screw as much as you care about yourself and you'll be making a trip to planned parenthood every weekend before you know it.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:08 PM on December 18, 2007

my wife is going over college application essays for some of her students. One of them contains the sentence "I am the first woman in my family."*

She'd be the ideal partner for this cat.

*I'm not casting aspersions, perhaps she comes from a long line of amoebas
posted by jonmc at 8:11 PM on December 18, 2007 [7 favorites]

"I am the first woman in my family."

Hey who knows, maybe it's some kind of multigenerational "Heather Has Two Daddies" scenario.
posted by ottereroticist at 8:13 PM on December 18, 2007

Anyone showing up to meetups in a fedora and pinstripes now is just asking for trouble.

Au contraire. I say we have a mass meetup with a mandatory fedora/pinstripes dress code. Now that would look cool on flickr.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:14 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

I say we have a mass meetup with a mandatory fedora/pinstripes dress code.

Do the pinstripes have to be vertical? I've always wanted to look like a walking test pattern.

(seriously, I have no problem with quirkiness, but this knucklehead seems to have developed his persona by intensive study of 'quirky' guys on bad sitcoms)
posted by jonmc at 8:19 PM on December 18, 2007

Ok, I admit that I've owned pineapple lube in the past. A friend got it for me, I swear.
posted by puke & cry at 8:21 PM on December 18, 2007

"I am a veteran dork of endearing proportions. I make obscure references to mixed, sometimes blank-faced results."

Anonymous is Dennis Miller?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:22 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

The way my comment reads that means I like you Pukey, you're my kind of nerd. In fact I do like you, but not because you smell like lube.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:23 PM on December 18, 2007

Hey who knows, maybe it's some kind of multigenerational "Heather Has Two Daddies" scenario.

Heh. More likely a (unfortunately hilarious) typo. My wife has met the student's mother.

Hell, Saturday at my job at the Big Famous Indie Bookstore, two confused looking Frenchmen came up and said "Vee ar looking for Eric Clapton...' I looked them dead in the eye and said "He don't work here."

I've been waiting twenty years for that opportunity.
posted by jonmc at 8:26 PM on December 18, 2007 [5 favorites]

I had actually completely forgotten about my pineapple lube until you mentioned it. First bottle I'd ever had purchased at one of those stupid joke stores in the mall. Just barely tasted like pineapple.
posted by puke & cry at 8:30 PM on December 18, 2007

There's not enough lube in the world to make a pineapple . . . oh forget it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:33 PM on December 18, 2007 [4 favorites]

I wore a fedora for a few years in college, and come to think of it, those were my prime years casual sex-wise.

That did not change the fact that I was a complete dork though. These things are not mutually exclusive.
posted by tkolar at 8:34 PM on December 18, 2007

He just wants advice and I don't see why that has to come with a whole steaming pile of YOU'RE A DOUCHEBAG.

Point taken. Mr. Anonymous, the correct answer to your request for "amazing advice for casual sex shenanigans" is: Find the nearest cloche hatted flapper and say, "Hey, doll, what say we head back to my place and dance the horizontal Charleston?"
posted by pardonyou? at 8:34 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

Lindy, pardonyou?, the horizontal Lindy. And he'd have to take her for a ride in his Model T, first.
posted by jonmc at 8:36 PM on December 18, 2007

Who? Please submit a person currently alive who is not awesome looking wearing anything. IOW, you can't say: Johnny Depp.

In high waisted pants, leather suspenders, 4" heels, red lipstick and nothing else, most women look spectacular in a fedora.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 8:49 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

There's not enough lube in the world to make a pineapple . . . oh forget it.

I was buying a take-away curry the other night, and they had Gala Melon in the pudding section of the menu. [NOT DALI-IST]
posted by jack_mo at 8:50 PM on December 18, 2007

Is this a fedora? Because, it looks strange.
posted by jonmc at 8:52 PM on December 18, 2007

It's not wrong to gang up with your friends and hurt someone if you don't like them! It's only wrong when someone else gangs up with their friends and hurts you or your friends.

Incidentally there, "Tex," didn't we have an agreement about you and these long-ass user names? 'Cause I'd have sworn...
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:54 PM on December 18, 2007

Change everything about your outward personality and act like you care about the girl you want to screw as much as you care about yourself and you'll be making a trip to planned parenthood every weekend before you know it.

Wait, so the planned parenthood workers are easy? Sign me up! With a fedora and pinstripes!
posted by jmd82 at 9:01 PM on December 18, 2007

WHAT
THE
FUCK
NERDS?

I dunno, jessamyn...I think it's like when you're half-tool, half-braggart, and half-borderline-stalker, it's like you're kind of a, uh, douche. And a half. Or something. It's just a really bad combination. I'm surprised anyone would be surprised at this reaction, really. If the question were "I feel like I might be extraordinary lame; these are my habits; what might I do differently?" it probably would have gone over a lot better than "I'm awesome [followed by a lengthy accounting of all the ways in which he is so not awesome in any way], and I really like women, so why aren't any of them sucking my dick right now?" Since it was the latter, though...yeah. Tragic inevitability.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:10 PM on December 18, 2007 [10 favorites]

When I was a teen in the Eighties I had a short phase where I sported an overcoat, bowler, and a long black umbrella. Oddly enough I had never even heard of The Avengers.

I cringe now when I realize I came off as a lame-ass Goth Ducky.
posted by sourwookie at 9:13 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

I think it's like when you're half-tool, half-braggart, and half-borderline-stalker

Oh, please, that's needlessly harsh. I think it is clear that anonymous is harmless. This is a kid who is "high on life," intoxicated by language, trying to make his way in the adult romantic world. There's absolutely nothing in his Craigslist posts or anonymous question to suggest he is even a borderline stalker ... in fact, he emphasizes his respect for the women he meets.
posted by jayder at 9:17 PM on December 18, 2007

... in fact, he emphasizes his respect for the women he meets.

...
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:19 PM on December 18, 2007

This is a kid who is "high on life," intoxicated by language, trying to make his way in the adult romantic world.

Oh. A wanker, then?
posted by pompomtom at 9:28 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

kittens for breakfast: Yes. He did. The Ellipsis of Stunned Doubt doesn't change that. Hitting on random women might be tacky or annoying or whatever, but he didn't say anything disrespectful or stalkerlike.
posted by CKmtl at 9:28 PM on December 18, 2007

He's going to wind up on hollaback quite soon if he doesn't change his approach...my first response to "Hey gorgeous, wanna date" by a complete stranger would be: GET.THE.FUCK.AWAY.FROM.ME.NOW!!!


Also, I think the way he uses "ladies" is condescending.
posted by brujita at 9:30 PM on December 18, 2007

Hitting on random women might be tacky or annoying or whatever, but he didn't say anything disrespectful or stalkerlike.

Uh, well, we can replace "stalker" with "creep," if that makes you feel better. I'm comfortable with that.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:32 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Oh my gosh! Junior Spears is pregnant! So I'm there on People.com, and I'm compulsively clicking on "next story," because celeb gossip is like little pieces of chocolate and I just want more-more-MORE! There's the Jamie Lynn Spears story, a story about Brit, and then, pricelessly, a story headlined...

"Lynne Spears's Parenting Book 'Delayed Indefinitely'"
posted by houseofdanie at 9:33 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

Au contraire. I say we have a mass meetup with a mandatory fedora/pinstripes dress code. Now that would look cool on flickr.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:14 PM on December 18 [+] [!]

A THOUSAND TIMES YES.

[NOT ANTIFEDORIST]

WHEN AND WHERE
(say San Francisco, goddamnit)
sometime after January 1st works for me
Wow, you can nest lots of these
posted by scrump at 9:39 PM on December 18, 2007 [2 favorites]

PeterMcDermott: "- leatherman?
When did a leatherman become an annoying affectation? Is it only an annoying affectation if you wear it hanging from your belt, or does it still count if you leave it in a bag or a drawer, ready for the moment when you need to remove the stone from a horses hoof or whatever the fuck the various appendages do?"
Of course, you've all heard of the Chinese Army Knife? It has an attachment for getting bicycles out of tank tracks.
posted by dg at 9:41 PM on December 18, 2007

Then I saw pictures. Oh God, what was I thinking?

Fear of this condition is the only thing that prevents me from attempting a Sam Elliot moustache.

Also, that pic of CunningLinguist's shoes has birthed a new internet crush for me.
posted by middleclasstool at 9:41 PM on December 18, 2007

I think Fedora Boy should come out of the anonymous closet and become a MeFi celeb. Come out, boy! Come on. You can become our project, maybe even a little holiday miracle.
posted by houseofdanie at 9:44 PM on December 18, 2007

In high waisted pants, leather suspenders, 4" heels, red lipstick and nothing else, most women look spectacular in a fedora.

Unless they were cast members in a Bob Fosse number... no... no "most" women do not look spectacular. Perhaps spectacularly bad.

Any way I guess jessamyn has a good point. I mean any dude that dressed like this (1987 or not) should not be throwing stones.

Who knows. Maybe anonymous is ahead of the curve. In ten years maybe sexually desperate dweebs in fedoras will be all the rage.
posted by tkchrist at 9:48 PM on December 18, 2007

in fact, he emphasizes his respect for the women he meets.

Just because he says he is respectful doesn't actually make him respectful. Especially when it's not all that respectful to brag about the woman he's "bedded," using their age or hair color or job as signifiers for his greatness, except he's not as "proud" as he should be of his conquests because of how he met them. Not really all that respectful, if you ask me. As well as being boorish and braggy. I mean, if he usually thinks about the women he's had sex with the way he writes about them, then it appears that he's more interested in their attributes as a way of building up his ego/showing off, and seems to have missed the point of sex.

Anyone who brags to strangers on the internet about the "Phds" and "fetish models" he's banged is not "my people," he is a painfully stereotypical fratboy, just with a different set of targets.
posted by Snyder at 9:50 PM on December 18, 2007 [14 favorites]

Well, I guess I won't buy that hat after all.

you're sure a 23-year-old guy in a fedora would look silly?
posted by JDHarper at 9:52 PM on December 18, 2007

I mean any dude that dressed like this (1987 or not) should not be throwing stones.


Umm, tkchrist, I've got bad news for you. As awful as it is (and it is fucking awful) I look less cheesy and dated in that twenty-year-old photo of 16-year-old me than you do in your considerably more recent and putatively more "grown up" profile photo.
posted by dersins at 9:55 PM on December 18, 2007

Uh, well, we can replace "stalker" with "creep," if that makes you feel better. I'm comfortable with that.

It's not really about me feeling better, it's about avoiding unnecessary and possibly harmful hyperbole. Real stalkers are scary stuff... (almost?) on par with rapists. Would you be comfortable calling this guy a borderline rapist because he wants casual sex or a friends-with-benefits situation? That's sort of how calling him and guys like him "borderline stalkers" for asking out random women seems.

Anyway, I need to get to bed before I foolishly decide to by a hat online.
posted by CKmtl at 9:55 PM on December 18, 2007

your considerably more recent and putatively more "grown up" profile photo.

Seriously, I mean, nice soul patch, dude. What are you, a Peter Bagge character from 1995?
posted by dersins at 10:01 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

your considerably more recent and putatively more "grown up" profile photo -- dersins

Oooh, dem's fightin' words.
posted by delmoi at 10:11 PM on December 18, 2007

Profile photo fight!
posted by cgc373 at 10:17 PM on December 18, 2007

People, focus! Cortex has strongly hinted that his Omnipotent Admin Powers reveal that this "anonymous" post is not a hoax. Meanwhile, Jessamyn is not only defending what is described by virtually everyone else in this thread as Epic Douchebaggery, she actually suggested that Mr. Fedora could work his special brand of magic on her. These two pieces of information tell me that this post is coming FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE. By which I mean, this is no fly-by-night anonymous troll. This dude walks amongst us. Let the finger-pointing begin!
posted by Banky_Edwards at 10:23 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

THAT'S tkchrist?! Fuck, I have to stop looking at profile photos. My whole world is crumbling over here.
posted by puke & cry at 10:24 PM on December 18, 2007

Oversensitive much there dersins?

Besides. I am waaaaay hot in that photo.

Oh. I see the confusion. I'm the blond. That's my wife with the soul patch.
posted by tkchrist at 10:27 PM on December 18, 2007 [6 favorites]

THAT'S tkchrist?! Fuck, I have to stop looking at profile photos. My whole world is crumbling over here.

Hey. I warned you. But did you listen. No.
posted by tkchrist at 10:29 PM on December 18, 2007

Can we go back to making jokes about pineapple lube? That was my favorite part.
posted by aubilenon at 10:37 PM on December 18, 2007

my first response to "Hey gorgeous, wanna date" by a complete stranger would be: GET.THE.FUCK.AWAY.FROM.ME.NOW!!!

That's kind of strange, maybe you have Aspergers?
posted by ludwig_van at 10:38 PM on December 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

- monty python skit quoting?
- alien something or other?
- moleskine?
- fixie?
- t-shirts with code on them?
- giant belt buckles?
- hemp anything?
- TEE-vee?
- snakes on a plane nonsense?
- stuff to put in your clean hair to make it look unwashed?
- jewlery made out of perfectly functional items that were taken apart to make jewelry out of?
- leatherman?

Damn.
posted by 517 at 10:57 PM on December 18, 2007

does anyone have the Craigslist ads text? I wanna see!

Oh lord - I went out with guys with affectations like this when I was young. I never understood why people had to be "in character" like this all the time. It is one thing to be internally "weird" in a good way - it is another thing altogether to broadcast how quirky! and unique! and fabulous! you are all the time. Life isn't necessarily a stage, dude.
posted by pinky at 11:07 PM on December 18, 2007

Oh man, deleted by author. I don't guess we had a very positive effect on this fellow huh?
posted by puke & cry at 11:10 PM on December 18, 2007

Know what I blame this guy on? The education system.
This is what happens when schools introduce zero tolerance for bullying programs, people!!!

Full disclosure: I wore a fedora once, just once, when I was thirteen. It was the night of our school band recital. Mom told me not to. My sister emphatically told me not to.
But I wore it. God, I wore that motherfucker
For about fifteen minutes.
I fell out of love with the clarinet that night. And fedoras... don't talk to me about fedoras.

Oddly, when I started wearing a hunting vest to school (Day-glo orange side in, of course - I wasn't a complete weirdo), no one said a peep.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:12 PM on December 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Maybe it's a realization that the ads weren't doing what he hoped they would do, puke & cry. Maybe he's gonna rewrite 'em using some of the foine, foine advoyce we've foisted on him hereabouts, and take it to the limit.
posted by cgc373 at 11:13 PM on December 18, 2007

- leatherman?

Not anymore, I'm afraid.


.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:20 PM on December 18, 2007

I just thought of that, actually. Maybe he realized they were so terrible they deserved a quick death and a rewrite. I'd like to see how he re-works them.
posted by puke & cry at 11:21 PM on December 18, 2007

I'd like to see how he re-works them.

Admit it. You want to bang the guy. Stop playing coy. He had you at "fedora."
posted by tkchrist at 11:27 PM on December 18, 2007

Actually, he sounds a lot like me except with more confidence. Which, of course, is still incredibly sad. I'm almost on the verge of feeling for the guy but I can't get past the pinstripe/fedora thing. I just picture some jackass in a zuit suit wandering around the subways of NYC telling girls how gorgeous they look. That's a hard mental imagine to get over.
posted by puke & cry at 11:31 PM on December 18, 2007

People, focus!

I agree. People are passing over this new insight into what floats Jessamyn's love boat with a surprisingly small amount of snark and razzing.

I bet all you lonely horny librarian lovers are out buying fedoras right now.
posted by ottereroticist at 11:47 PM on December 18, 2007

Little buddy. You made me sad. Sad inside. Inside my tummy where usually there is sunshine and unicorns... and... and... buck up and get it together man!
posted by tkchrist at 11:50 PM on December 18, 2007

I have to beat the birds and chicks off of me every time I wear my suet suit.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:53 PM on December 18, 2007 [6 favorites]

When the Spruce Goose was still berthed in Long Beach (around 1985), I bought a gray fedora at the gift shop, mostly because they had a size 7 & 3/4, and I was amazed a gift shop would stock that size. It turned out to be a pretty good hat by Baron of California, and I still have it, and wear it occasionally.

And I look just like Howard Hughes, when I do. From the back. From the neck up. If I'm wearing the hat pushed back on my head a little. Only he liked brown fedoras, and mine is gray.
posted by paulsc at 11:56 PM on December 18, 2007

My curiosity has been piqued by jessamyn's and cortex's comments. I'm seeing an incredible MeFi fundraiser opportunity here. I will pay $20 to unmask this anonymous.

Operators are standing by to take your pledges!
posted by kyleg at 12:11 AM on December 19, 2007

You know why I don't wear a fedora? Hat size: 8 1/4. Even adjustable baseball caps give up the fight.
posted by maxwelton at 12:26 AM on December 19, 2007

Is this where we get to throw in weird dating stories of our own? Because on some CL first date I once went on, the guy showed up with a "dating resume" that included past experience. Yes, this could have been well done, and I actually admired the idea for its boldness and humor potential. But in this case, his "skills" included cooking, cheering people up, and "great at cunnilingus!" and it also discussed his penis, perhaps its length? Oh no, the bullet-pointed phrase was something like "has what some have called an attractive penis." Imagine handing that print-out to someone you just met. You gotta give the guy credit for guts.

I laughed and then kept smiling and was generally speechless and might've said something generally positive like "wow, this is great," then kept laughing and, lacking anything else to say, finally expressed the only clear sentence I could articulate, which was, "I can't stop smiling and laughing now the same way I couldn't stop when I saw the movie Jackass." (WARNING: gross-out photo)

His response was, "oh, so you're vanilla like that?" ...Um, yes. Yes I am.

So, while at least four out of my seven closest high school friends wore trenchcoats and all of them played Magic (and before that, was it Battlecraft? Little statues and fake turf grass?), I'm definitely with the oddballs, I still see the potential for someone to be an oddball in a quirky and sexual way that doesn't work very well for dating.
posted by salvia at 12:36 AM on December 19, 2007

All of this soul patch business and unmasking anonymous and what-the-hell-ever-else merely distracts us from the NEW, SHOCKING TRUTH, as revealed by Astro Zombie in asavage's FPP. My god, mathowie's closet's full of stars.
posted by cgc373 at 12:37 AM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

In high waisted pants, leather suspenders, 4" heels, red lipstick and nothing else, most women look spectacular in a fedora.

Strange-- I've been listening to "You Can Leave Your Hat On" a lot the past few days. Randy Newman said once that the character in that song was meant to be a huge nerd.
posted by ibmcginty at 1:26 AM on December 19, 2007

Dammit people, you killed this guy before I got a chance to read the CL posts and fully judge this guy's douchebagery in full. Now I'll never know just how this guy managed to attract *any* woman....
posted by librarylis at 1:36 AM on December 19, 2007

I totally agree with WCityMike that anonymous posters with certain sorts of questions are much more likely to be battered (and fried!) on AskMe. If the question even remotely pushes the "judge my personality" button, the results can be incredibly harsh.

The problem is at least twofold: 1) with an anonymous poster, people don't have a sense of interacting with a real individual, and are therefore more likely to respond in a way that is actually addressing all the people they've known or observed who seem to have similar characteristics, so that often they are really reacting to a "type" or some specific past experience than to another member, and 2) since anonymous posters don't have the opportunity to clear up misconceptions, answer questions, or elaborate on a particular aspect that might be brought up in the ensuing discussion, the smarter ones usually try to include every bit of information they can think of that may be pertinent. Unfortunately, this often backfires, with people accusing them of being obsessive, self-centered, rambling, unfocused, or rationalizing. Providing every tiny detail of backstory at the opening of a conversation is unnatural in standard communication, and as a result these questions often have that quality of "feeling wrong" to the reader.

Someone posting under their own user name (or one they have acquired just for this purpose) has the luxury of being pithy and to the point in their initial question, because they are able to follow where the responses might lead them and provide more details on demand. As it is, in anonymous questions the poster often seems to give TMI or bring up things that don't necessarily seem relevant, and then answerers will often focus on how including those things demonstrates certain unsavory or misguided assumptions or characteristics.

I'm not saying that there is any easy solution for this, but unless your question is a rather cut-and-dried affair, I would probably advise "anonymous" people to consider posting with your regular handle in edge cases that might be slightly embarrassing but won't affect your real life (jobs, relationships, etc.), or spring for the second account (that you will use only for anonymous good, and not for sockpuppetry evil).
posted by taz at 2:01 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

I look less cheesy and dated in that twenty-year-old photo of 16-year-old me than you do

You do realize that tkchrist is some kind of serious nth dan kung fu artist who can kill a man with just a withering look, right? I know if I were an effeminate looking goth type, tkchrist is the *last* person on Metafilter that I'd be ripping on. I'd be worried that his kung fu skills would reach out of my monitor and fuck me up right where I sat.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:38 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Who? Please submit a person currently alive who is not awesome looking wearing anything. IOW, you can't say: Johnny Depp.

Robert Redford, Robert Duval, Tom Waits, Stacy Keach, Nick Nolte, Chaz Palminteri, just off the top of my head. And they're deceased, but both Hunter S. Thompson and William S. Borroughs rocked the fedora. I will admit that none of the people (that I can think of) who wear fedoras well are in their 20's or 30's. In general, only about 5% of the population can pull off the fedora look, so if you're (general you, not you tkchrist) considering it, don't. Odds are you'll look ridiculous.

And this fedora discussion reminded me of my grandpa, who died in 1981, but wore fedoras and pinstriped double breasted suits all his life. Gramps looked damned good in the outfit, but he was a rare one.
posted by Devils Slide at 2:52 AM on December 19, 2007

Robert Redford, Robert Duval, Tom Waits, Stacy Keach, Nick Nolte, Chaz Palminteri, just off the top of my head.

But they all look pretty awesome whatever they wear. The challenge was to identify a non-awesome looking person who looks good in a fedora.

My own view is that you either need to be over 60, or black to pull it off.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:35 AM on December 19, 2007

That's kind of strange


Don't recognize what a clipped tone of voice would look like written down, hmmm?
posted by brujita at 4:36 AM on December 19, 2007

I just thought I would add my 2¢ to this huge thread. I don't even know what were talking about now.
posted by chillmost at 5:08 AM on December 19, 2007

Wow. I swear to god, I pictured tkchrist as a 55 year old with a salt and pepper crewcut. Must stop clicking on profiles to view photos, indeed!
posted by availablelight at 5:14 AM on December 19, 2007

My own view is that you either need to be over 60, or black to pull it off.

I think a twenty-something black guy in a fedora would look...about as goofy as a twenty-something white guy in a fedora, really. "Over 60," as a general rule, is probably the way to go.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:57 AM on December 19, 2007

mostly because they had a size 7 & 3/4

Hat size: 8 1/4

Ah fellow owners of oversized heads, we should form a club.
posted by drezdn at 5:57 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Dammit people, you killed this guy before I got a chance to read the CL posts and fully judge this guy's douchebagery in full.

It's too bad. They were priceless. Something about kryptonite and mothra and eau du asshole being his holy water. Hopefully someone still has them in their cache.
posted by pardonyou? at 6:20 AM on December 19, 2007

I always figured Languagehat was more of an irish pub cap kinda guy.

Send me a pub cap and I'll wear it. Hell, zaelic sent me a big furry astrakhan winter hat called a "kucsma" he bought from a family of Gypsies at a fair somewhere in the depths of Eastern Europe; it was what he called the "oversized boy scout cap" design "favored by Ceaucescu, Mohammed Karzai, and half of Boro Park," and I love it.

A trilby has a thinner brim than a fedora.

I didn't say they were identical, I said that the fedora is the US equivalent, much as Rube Goldberg is the US equivalent of Heath Robinson.
posted by languagehat at 6:21 AM on December 19, 2007

Also, I hope you people are proud of yourselves for running off the guy who dared to mention his unhip outerwear. You showed him! We only allow our type to post questions here!
posted by languagehat at 6:22 AM on December 19, 2007

I just wish that there were some magical way that the internet in general and MeFi in particular could show this guy's reactions when he reads the responses. What was it? Shock? Horror? Disbelief?

That's not too much to ask, technically speaking, is it?

I know, too many question marks
posted by worker_bee at 6:42 AM on December 19, 2007

Also, I hope you people are proud of yourselves for running off the guy who dared to mention his unhip outerwear. You showed him! We only allow our type to post questions here!

With all due respect, you're being willfully obtuse. This didn't result from his "mentioning" his dress or affectations in isolation -- it's the fact that he cited his dress and affectations as reasons why he thought he should be getting some serious NSA sex, when, in fact, those things are very likely hurting his chances for the casual hookups he so desperately craves. In other words, I'm glad your wife is turned on by your fedora, but I don't think it's likely that women who are interested in casual sex would share her enthusiasm.

Anyway, there is no "our type" here -- my guess is that almost everyone here has gone through (or is currently going through) a phase of somewhat out-of-the-mainstream dress or behavior. The difference is, most people don't go to AskMe and post, "Hey, I'm sporting this really cool coonskin cap -- why can't I pick up chicks for one night stands?"
posted by pardonyou? at 6:47 AM on December 19, 2007

Okay, okay. The poor guy is only 24. Who isn't a clueless idiot or pompous douchebag (or worse) at 24?
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:52 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Is it too late to say "this guy seems like a douche"?
posted by Mister_A at 6:53 AM on December 19, 2007

touche' CunningLinguist.
posted by Mister_A at 6:54 AM on December 19, 2007

Hey, back off. I started using Moleskines before they got annoyingly trendy.

They were trendy before you were born, sonny.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:02 AM on December 19, 2007

Paradox, innit? I find that the ladies are fascinated when I explain the contradictions to them with my vintage ventriloquist dummy.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:10 AM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

After careful review, printing to hard copy and filing of all 300+ comments I've given this thread very careful consideration. I've polled my family members, co-workers and bandmates, prayed, burnt smudge sticks, meditated, traveled to Mecca and consulted with the holiest of men and can only come to one conclusion: Someone needs to be cockpunched.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 7:15 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Vladimir Putin?
posted by taz at 7:34 AM on December 19, 2007

But they all look pretty awesome whatever they wear. The challenge was to identify a non-awesome looking person who looks good in a fedora.

How about Labamba?
posted by BozoBurgerBonanza at 7:37 AM on December 19, 2007

Hitting on random women might be tacky or annoying or whatever, but he didn't say anything disrespectful or stalkerlike.

Hitting on random women on the street is disrespectful. Someone who does that is basically so obsessed with getting what they want, so convinced of their own attractiveness that they want to throw out a big "Fuck You" out to the fact that 99% of women have to deal with that skeevy shit every other day and are fucking sick of it, no matter who it's coming from.

"Sure, sure, when the drunken homeless guy old enough to be your dad does it that's creepy, but look, I've got a fedora so it's cool, right?"

No, creepy fedora man. It is not cool. All kinds of men hit on women on the street. Young men, old men, rich men, poor men, well-dressed and not, attractive or not. But you know, they all have one thing in common: lack of class. You know why they do it? Because they think they can pull it off. Just like you!

If you have any understanding for what it is like to be female in our society, hitting on women on the street is something you do not do. There's a 1% chance she'll respond positively? Well, how about the other 99% of women who won't? It's not that you're just being annoying or wasting their time. You have provided yet another reminder that in our society they're naught but a piece of meat if they wear a skirt. Yeah, that's real fucking respectful of you.
posted by Anonymous at 7:43 AM on December 19, 2007

I didn't say anything in the thread because I really try to respect the rules of Askme, which I think are good rules, and I couldn't answer his question, but the dude bought his ticket and he took his ride, he decided to write all those pompous and braggy things. 24 years old is old enough to have some degree of introspection about your motivations and behavior. Just because one can delay adulthood well into one's thirties and beyond doesn't mean the rest of us have to condone it. In an ideal world that thread would be sitting there with zero answers.

I'm sure there is a contrary opinion, but pretty much every woman I have ever known has said that being hit on randomly in the street, even by someone who is dressed "nicely", ranges from irritating to downright scary, it's the death of a thousand cuts. So yeah, what schroedinger said, as well.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:02 AM on December 19, 2007 [3 favorites]

If I could favorite the comments 100 times of hmsbeagle and schroedinger that say it's not fucking respectful of women to be hitting on women you don't know in the street all the time, I would. Right the fuck on.
posted by agregoli at 8:13 AM on December 19, 2007 [3 favorites]

Also, Snyder. Right the fuck on.
posted by agregoli at 8:15 AM on December 19, 2007

I apparently missed the mass LOLFEDORA. All I know is that

you must be this hot ________________________

is now so incredibly far up the thread and out of reach that I have zero chance, ever.
posted by waraw at 8:16 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

His Craigslist posts aren't down now. I think this one is different than it was yesterday, but I'm not sure.
posted by zebra3 at 8:29 AM on December 19, 2007

I slept on it before I made up my mind. I hope this guy is a troll, because clueless douchebags like him should not be having any kind of sex, lest they inadvertently breed. To paraphrase Fred Rogers:

It's you I don't like, it's not your fedora.

posted by RussHy at 8:30 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

SPARTA!
posted by shmegegge at 8:47 AM on December 19, 2007

zebra3, I think it must be in your cache.
posted by taz at 8:50 AM on December 19, 2007

Well, this went completely hatstand.
posted by Abiezer at 8:53 AM on December 19, 2007

I'm really starting to dread *any* hundreds long thread.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:54 AM on December 19, 2007

I occasionally wear a fedora myself. A pinstriped fedora. And I'm often offered, even literally begged to engage in casual sex, with or without the fedora.
posted by yohko at 8:55 AM on December 19, 2007

So, yohko, how much lube does it take to make a fedora . . . oh forget it.
posted by hydrophonic at 9:10 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

I think a twenty-something black guy in a fedora would look...about as goofy as a twenty-something white guy in a fedora, really

Not so.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:14 AM on December 19, 2007

Though IIRC, that's actually a homburg that Jigga's wearing.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:15 AM on December 19, 2007

I've got one of the CL ads in my cache (mods--please delete this comment if it's not appropriate):

Seeking Moxie-Fueled Bibliophile for Library-Powered Shagfest - m4w
Reply to: xxxxxx
Date: 2007-12-16, 9:22PM PST


Don't get my wrong. I shindig till 2am, I tip my cap to random strangers, I do my very best to infuse the world with punchlines and good cheer. My social algorithms are cribbed from something a little more polysyllabic than Jugs and Barely Legal, and I'd like to think that I've passed the evolutionary watershed of 'Ugg, me hungry.'

But damn is it hard to discuss quality books during happy hour.

To wit: I am a veteran dork of endearing proportions. I make obscure references to mixed, sometimes blank-faced results. I'm prone to grooving randomly to quality Elvis dance remixes. And I have this nasty, recurring habit of cruising half-price bookstore shelves like an old-skool leatherman cruising a bathhouse.

Tell me you can relate.

You are a girl whose below-the-equator bloodflow skyrockets at the sight of a textbook. You treat episodes of Jeopardy like a performance of Chippendales. You think knowledge is an aphrodesiac, like powdered rhino horn meets sun-kissed strawberry. You probably own a t-shirt that says, 'Librarians do it in the stacks.'

We should discuss.

Why do bookworms get me hot? Because dumbasses get me ice cold. I love and lust after women whose brainpower could lay the smackdown on Deep Blue, whose thumb and forefinger callous from rampant dogears, whose personal libraries could pistolwhip an ox. If you've ever discombobulated a boy/girl in mid-coitus with a tangent about biotechnology, let me say two things:

A) That's fucking hilarious, and B) You're my kind of girl.

Honestly. I have friends with fetishes for everything from feet to blindness. Like somebody out there in the internet void doesn't get all excited over the Dewey Decimal System?




* it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests



posted by box at 9:16 AM on December 19, 2007 [5 favorites]

Though IIRC, that's actually a homburg that Jigga's wearing.

Yeah, and anyway I think this kinda fits under the someone-who-will-probably-look-cool-regardless heading. Not a representative sampling!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:25 AM on December 19, 2007

Hitting on random women on the street is disrespectful.

Indeed. A gentleman makes his intentions known with a cute widdle stuffed animal.
posted by jason's_planet at 9:27 AM on December 19, 2007

Oh man, deleted by author. I don't guess we had a very positive effect on this fellow huh?

I don't know, but I think coming face to face with the reaction he provokes could actually be a positive experience. Considering the way he presents himself I am sure it's not just the hotshot snarkers on Mefi that think he's a bit of a douche.

Personally, I didn't get to read the CL ads, but the question itself made me go "and he has to be at the gym in 26 minutes!" pretty much every other sentence or so.
posted by splice at 9:29 AM on December 19, 2007

I kinda do feel bad for this kid when I think about it, so I now have a constructive piece of advice for him:


whose personal libraries could pistolwhip an ox.

You cannot pistolwhip an ox or anything else with anything but a pistol. You could probably say poleaxe here, but it still sounds awkward.

Also maybe consider actually looking for someone to have an actual relationship with rather than just some sex, it can be pretty nice.
posted by Divine_Wino at 9:31 AM on December 19, 2007

OK, having read the CL ad quoted above, I have to say that "I have to be at the gym in 26 minutes" doesn't even begin to cover it. But then again, since the poster is such an intellectual giant he surely doesn't need any of us to explain that.
posted by splice at 9:32 AM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

Okay, I'm curious. Where does one hit on women?

I've been in a monogamous relationship for eleven years, and before that I was more of a "meet a friend of a friend and we hit it off" sort of guy than a "proposition strangers" guy, so I don't really know the mores of this sort of situation.

First off, is any sort of date approach considered hitting on? Like "would you like to have a cup of coffee with me sometime?" Is that hitting-on?

Secondly, if it's skeevy to be approached for a date on the street, is it any less skeevy if you're at a coffee shop or a bar or a friend's party? I imagine that if women get annoying levels of hituponedness on the street, it's not going to stop once they go indoors. Or is it? It's out of my personal experience.
posted by L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg at 9:36 AM on December 19, 2007 [3 favorites]

You cannot pistolwhip an ox or anything else with anything but a pistol.

And librarians don't usually make a habit of dog-earing books, and Jeopardy! has an exclamation mark. When so many of the details are a little bit off like that, it almost always reeks of either inauthenticity, trying-too-hard or both.
posted by box at 9:37 AM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

is it bad that I wish I could get my hair to look like dersins' does in that picture? And that I'm 34? And female?

Probably.
posted by Lucinda at 9:41 AM on December 19, 2007

Dang, you guys. The poor poster is definitely guilty of going a little over the top on things, but I've seen so much worse here that hardly garnered any kind of critical response at all. I think this has just become some sort of meanness juggernaut or something, and maybe people are frustrated and cranky at this time of year.

I'm totally down with "don't harass strangers on the street" and have spoken to that before, but for what it's worth, he did say that he did this several years ago when he was around 20. Yeah, still not an excuse, but, man... it's like this guy killed MeFi's kitten or something.
posted by taz at 9:47 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm affirming earlier comments that I can't see much distinction between randomly approaching strangers in the street in the street and verbally asking for sex, versus spamming random strangers using non-verbal gestures such as wolf whistling or limb motions. Also, I can't *believe* there's not a single person who saved these Craigslist posts. My "best of" CL save directory goes back over ten years! Come on, post them!
posted by meehawl at 9:51 AM on December 19, 2007

Secondly, if it's skeevy to be approached for a date on the street, is it any less skeevy if you're at a coffee shop or a bar or a friend's party?

I'm pretty sure it breaks down thus: Less skeevy in coffee shops, considerably less skeevy in bars, not skeevy at all at a friend's party.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:52 AM on December 19, 2007

Man, maybe I'm talking crazy but I'm afraid all this poo poo-ing of asking someone out that you spot on the street might be discouraging legitimately OK guys who do it in a not creepy way because they're actually the types to be mortified into not doing something after hearing their peers tell them how stupid it is; and somehow it's just letting the creepy type guys who don't give a crap about what anyone else thinks or says and will continue to holla at a girl to flourish. And it scares me from approaching guys in public who I think might be cute because in my head I'm thinking "Man, I bet he'll just think I'm a weirdo."

I don't know, I don't get hit on a fantastic amount so maybe I just don't know what I'm missing out on, but I actually think it'd be nice if for once a young gentleman that I may be attracted to approached me in public with a, "Hey, I know this might be a bit weird or something...but...I don't know, here's my number. You don't have to call me, but I just wanted you to have it because it'd be nice if I could see you again" instead of the rare creepy/scary old guy who reeks of alcohol asking me if I'm married then following me for half a block asking me when I'm free for each day of the week. You're just scarin' away the good ones! Seriously, because where *else* are you supposed to pick up people? I don't get it. Do you all just rely solely on your social circles? I'm not saying "LADIES...eh? Eh? What do you think?" is the best pick up line ever, but sure there are ways to do it on the street, in a bookstore, or what have you that's *not* creepy, no? I'm thinking the "trying to hit on a girl in the street is disrespectful" is a bit too strident.

You're just scaring them away, man =(
posted by kkokkodalk at 9:54 AM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

I'm prone to grooving randomly to quality Elvis dance remixes

Eurgh.
posted by jack_mo at 9:57 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

meehawl, box posted one of them, here's the other, since I obviously still have them in my cache:

Cerebral GeekGod Seeks Sizzling Wallflower for Bookclub, Orgasms - m4w

Ladies. An announcement.

If you read obscure books in badly-lit dive bars, entertain esoteric interests which frighten small children, and lick your lips at the prospect of bare-knuckle jabberjaw, then you are the most gorgeous woman on the face of God's soylent green earth.

And I, a humble visitor to your adventure-filled city, seek to woo you.

Machismo is my kryptonite, arrogance my wolfsbane, eau de asshole my holy water. If a frat boy and I were to shake hands, we'd actually both explode. Nevertheless, I possess a towering sex drive trumped only by an sterling sense of morals. I am a dorky Cassanova stuck in 1920s German newspaper boy body with a love for pinstripes. I will ogle you indiscreetly, lust after you perpetually, and respect you mightily.

I am not a passive-aggressive dick passing himself off as 'a nice guy.' I am not a social invalid, swandiving into World of Warcraft at the slightest provocation. And I am not a dejected Office Space extra, climbing the social ladder like some paperpushing howler monkey. I am simply the fiery embodiment of all that is imperfect, off-kilter, and beautifully foolish.

I talk a lot, because I love me some polysyllables. Please come prepared, if not packing. My conversational style is in the time-honored tradition of Godzilla, in that I rise from murky depths to lay waste to whole cities with nothing but hot air.

I seek my Mothra.

Please, join me in my holy crusade against the vexing, Gordian knots of everyday bullshit. Talking to me about drama is like talking to a puppy about NASDAQ, with all the incomprehending stares and overwhelming cuteness that metaphor implies. You will find less baggage here then at a Zen monastery rummage sale.

I'll even buy you coffee. Precious, precious coffee.

Nanotech bondage pixies, militant bisexuals, and rabblerousing muses encouraged to reply.




* it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests


posted by zebra3 at 10:00 AM on December 19, 2007 [6 favorites]

Secondly, if it's skeevy to be approached for a date on the street, is it any less skeevy if you're at a coffee shop or a bar or a friend's party? I imagine that if women get annoying levels of hituponedness on the street, it's not going to stop once they go indoors. Or is it? It's out of my personal experience.

I think it just feels safer inside. If I'm on the street and a guy who approaches me ends up being creepy, then it means I have to worry that he's following me, if I'm heading toward my own home I have to worry that he's going to find out where I live, if I'm by myself (which is usually when this sort of thing happens) then I have to worry about where I'm going to go for help if he does follow me, whether anyone on the street will help me if he grabs me and I yell (and I generally figure they won't help me), whether the shoes and clothes I'm wearing will allow me to run faster than him, whether there are any bars or stores or restaurants nearby where I can go for help if I need it, how likely it is he'll be able to overpower me if he tries, and whether or not my cellphone is charged so that I can call for help.

That thought process, at this point, takes only about 1/2 second, because it's pretty much automatic at this point. But it's still anxiety-provoking, not to mention annoying. (And it's automatic for pretty much every guy who approaches me, because you never know who's going to turn out to be creepy.)

If I'm in a bar or cafe and a guy who approaches me ends up being creepy, then I'm in a safe lighted place with lots of people around who are likely to feel some responsibility for helping me (counter staff, bartenders, other patrons), where I can stay put if there's trouble until help arrives. If I'm in a friend's house, all of the above applies, plus additional social pressure because you figure the guy's a friend of someone, so he's been "vetted" in some way.

Basically, the more people around who will quickly and aggressively take me side and help me if there's a problem, the less likely I am to be worried about whether there's going to be a problem, and the more open I am to strangers talking to me.
posted by occhiblu at 10:01 AM on December 19, 2007 [20 favorites]

I'm not saying "LADIES...eh? Eh? What do you think?" is the best pick up line ever, but sure there are ways to do it on the street, in a bookstore, or what have you that's *not* creepy, no? I'm thinking the "trying to hit on a girl in the street is disrespectful" is a bit too strident.

I suppose the distinction to make is between (a) the idea of being moved by strange circumstance to ask out a stranger on the street and (b) heading out, befedora'd, for another round of Hit On Some Strangers. Folks tending in attitude more toward a than toward b are probably not so much the problem.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:05 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

stuck in 1920s German newspaper boy body

...what the fuck does that even mean?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:05 AM on December 19, 2007

That second CL ad made me puke a little in my mouth.

Sorry if you're offended, but them's the breaks. Guy's a tryhard, and if he doesn't think so, he ought to realize that's certainly how he's seen.
posted by splice at 10:11 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

schroedinger wrote: Hitting on random women on the street is disrespectful. ... It's not that you're just being annoying or wasting their time. You have provided yet another reminder that in our society they're naught but a piece of meat if they wear a skirt. Yeah, that's real fucking respectful of you.

Yes, I read the sexism threads. Yes, I know women are fucking tired of stuff like that. I suppose I have a higher threshold for seeing something as disrespectful. In my book, disrespectful would be catcalling, hollering "Whoa! Check out those knockers!", wolf-whistling, "Hey baby, let's fuck!", and things of that level. Or if he'd gone on and on about how women only exist for his pleasure, and that all y'all bitches need to get on his junk right now.

Nowhere in what he wrote is he claiming to have done those things or held those opinions. He said he tells women they're gorgeous and asks them out, which usually only leads to a cup of coffee if they say yes. Going out for coffee would be a really weird end result of someone propositioning you in the "hey baby, let's fuck" manner, don't you think? He never said women are pieces of meat in skirts, nor that he only thinks of them as walking vaginas. He says he views them as (potentially) interesting people, and also entities with which he'd like to have sex. Those categories aren't mutually exclusive; saying that he's objectifying women is putting words in his mouth.

That's why I thought and still think that he's not being intrinsically capital-D Disrespectful. And that he didn't deserve the public humiliation and OMG Worst Person EVER vibe that some are putting forth. He could've been enlightened about the wrongheadedness of his approach, or the creepy undertones of it, without resorting to going nuclear with the hate and reacting to things he didn't say (but that "guys who act like him", or some mental caricature thereof, usually say or think).

Degrees of disrespect, and appropriate degrees of response, y'know?
posted by CKmtl at 10:11 AM on December 19, 2007 [3 favorites]

...what the fuck does that even mean?

That he has intercourse with long-dead children?
posted by dersins at 10:13 AM on December 19, 2007

Cortex: Exactly, there is a distinction and that's my worry =( Just being all "don't hit on girls in the streets" in general doesn't make that distinction and scares away the nice guys who just might be moved to talk to that girl and ask her out for coffee vs. the ones heading out for pussy shenanigans. It's just creating another extreme! This is how guys like Patrick Moberg happen, though I still maintain that whole thing had to be some kind of marketing set up for the Americanized version of the movie "Densha Otoko," and I'm waiting for the trailer starring James van der Beek as Moberg and Shannon Sossamon as the girl with flowers in her hair to hit the internet any day now. But that's neither here nor there, that's just the only example I could think of. I don't know, it's winter, it's the holidays, and the only person/thing I'm spending quality time with is my Wii so that's where I'm sadly coming from is all.
posted by kkokkodalk at 10:17 AM on December 19, 2007

I am not a passive-aggressive dick passing himself off as 'a nice guy.'

No wonder he had trouble fitting in here.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:19 AM on December 19, 2007 [4 favorites]

you know what this guy's problem is? He hasn't quite decided what precisely he wants.

If he wants:

a) dorky sex
  then he should go where dorks go to get laid: someone's parents' basement or a roleplaying/anime/comic convention

b) sex of any variety that isn't necessarily dorky
  then he needs to ditch the WAY OVER THE TOP intentionally quirky attention whoring thing. most people don't go for it.

this is reasonable advice for a completely unreasonable askme.

if he wants c) casual sex that isn't necessarily dorky but with someone who thinks his quirky fedora thing is just the very epitome of sexual magnetism
  then good fucking luck, dude. you're already do everything you can do. maybe see if you can find some chick who carries a walking stick everywhere or dresses in renfair garb and says "aye" instead of "yes." you know what? try livejournal.
posted by shmegegge at 10:21 AM on December 19, 2007 [5 favorites]

I guess I'm of the mind that it's EXTREMELY rare for it to be appropriate to approach a woman you don't know on the street and ask her out. For all the reasons that occhiblu posted a little while back. It's scary, it's intimidating, and it immediately can put a woman on her guard (if she's being smart, in my opinion). In a coffee shop, at a party, at the grocery store, even, it is a slightly different story, but on the street, on the train...well, it can be a very unnerving experience, even if you *think* the guy might be a good guy.

I don't think that telling this guy he's probably going about it wrong is really going to stop the good guys out there from speaking to any women ever and I'm kind of "pfft whatever" about those concerns, but probably only because I'm still feeling residual exasperation from the sexism threads that many men don't seem to "get" what women go through all the damn time and the kind of concerns we HAVE to have. So perhaps it's my own deal, but that's how I think about it. Think carefully about how you approach women you don't know - mostly, about WHERE you approach them. I don't think the train is the best place.
posted by agregoli at 10:24 AM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

If we fail, I'm sure the New Haircut Guy can offer up a pro-tip or two. It's all about the jäger bombs.
posted by AwkwardPause at 10:25 AM on December 19, 2007

I don't know, it's winter, it's the holidays, and the only person/thing I'm spending quality time with is my Wii so that's where I'm sadly coming from is all.

Well hey, my ears just perked up. One sentence. One sentence. And that's how you write a personal ad, fedora dude!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:28 AM on December 19, 2007 [3 favorites]

Even if I take all the the gender/sex stuff out of "being stopped on the the street," I have to side with the women who are against it. Maybe this is because I live in NYC. Here, most of the people who aren't tourists are walking down the street because they're GOING SOMEWHERE. They have a goal and they don't want to be deterred from it.

When I'm walking, I usually HATE getting stopped by anybody. Including people asking for directions. I'm not proud of that, but I also would be lying if it denied it. I just want to get where I'm going without being hassled. And the city is one endless hassle. Getting where you're going is like going through an obstacle course.

I'm not 100% against it, though. IF I was single, and IF I didn't happen to be in a hurry, and IF I was in a safe, crowded part of town, and IF someone approached me in a non-sexual way, (e.g. "I hope you don't mind... don't want to bother... coffee?"), I would be open to it. (I'm a guy. Maybe I'd feel differently if I was female).

But if you're the approacher, in order to deal with all those IFs, you need finely-honed social skills. Anon has admitted he doesn't have them. So for him, especially (at least until he learns to read people better), approaching women on the street should be a no-no.
posted by grumblebee at 10:29 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

On the street, I can't rely on passers-by to back me up if the guy approaching me turns out to be insane and creepy. In a bookstore, at a bar, certainly at a friend's party, if a guy is ultra-skeevy, and I raise my voice in that shrill I-am-alarmed tone, some Good Samaritan, usually a guy, will come over and do that guy thing where you say something friendly in an unfriendly tone. ("Hey, guy. What's going on?")

(That thing is awesome.)

On the street, people won't get involved. It feels unsafe to be in that position. I have never been successfully approached on the street. I always assume that someone's either going to ask me for money or suggest that I give him my number. For me, there isn't some magic level of charm that will make me talk to a guy on the street. I mean, geez, even if he's funny, this is a dude who tries to pick up girls on the street, which is a definite negative for me.

In general, I have almost never given my number to men who "hit on me". I think the thing where Person A walks up to Person B because they think they're cute and tries to talk them into getting together is awkward and sort of...

I'm not sure how to put this. I feel like there's this huge amount of pressure on people to behave as though "How cute someone is" is the overriding factor (and I know, you now want to quote bad evolutionary psychology at me), but for me, "cuteness" is really closely tied to a man being very smart and funny and a good conversationalist. So it's really odd to me when someone approaches me with some variant of "You're pretty. Want to grab a drink sometime?" Why would I want to go out with someone who thinks I'm pretty, and who thinks that "prettiness" is why you should get coffee with someone? What if he's boring? What if he doesn't get my jokes? And why is he wearing that fedora?

Somewhere in one of these threads, someone said something about how approaching the ladies on the street is fine for people who are really good with social cues, which I think is true. The reason it's hard to give rules is that there are always going to be some people who are really good at reading people, and who won't approach a girl who's giving off the "I'm just trying to get home to watch The Simpsons, folks" vibe, and who would back way off if a girl he was talking to got a little wild-eyed.

It's probably sort of like driving after drinking, you know? Some people will be the distant outliers who will do fine, but almost everyone will think that they're a distant outlier, and will instead be the guy who ends up parked on the lawn.

Now, I also think there's a difference between "Guy who heads out expressly for the purpose of picking up chicks" and "A guy who sees a young lady he finds fetching drop a package and picks it up for her and they start a conversation". That seems like the kind of distinction that's super obvious to girls, maybe, and not so obvious to other people? But it has something to do with the fact that the second at least feels organic, and the first makes you feel like a target.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 10:30 AM on December 19, 2007 [28 favorites]

Yeah, and anyway I think this kinda fits under the someone-who-will-probably-look-cool-regardless heading. Not a representative sampling!

I don't disagree, but despite not being able to wear them myself due to the fact that they make most people under 60 look like assholes, I'm strongly drawn to hats -- particularly so to nice hats -- so I do pay attention to them. Over the last five years or so, I've noticed that almost everybody that I've seen under 40 wearing a formal hat of some sort has been black, and lots of them actually look great in them.

Truthfully, I don't think any of them have been in their 20's, but quite a lot have been under 40, and they've actually looked really good, when the same hat on a white guy would just make him look like a dork. I think it's got something to do with a certain confidence in how you look, and the ability to match the hat with other appropriate dress.

Mind you, if I think back to the early 60's, I remember that stingy-brim trilby's were very fashionable among young British mods, and when worn with the old Crombie overcoat and Tonik suit, everyone looked pretty good in them.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 10:30 AM on December 19, 2007

That he has intercourse with long-dead children?
A subject treated with great delicacy by Gustav Mahler in his Kinderfuckenlieder.
posted by Wolfdog at 10:31 AM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

With all the theater dorks and gaming dorks and film dorks I've been brought up with, the obnoxious over-the-top "pray call me Lord Darthquatch, Milady" people are really one out of a hundred. Less rare are the ones who, once they get onto a tear expressing themselves, especially when they're new to it, do so floridly as a way of expressing their zeal, stretching their muscles. I can certainly relate to unabashed and optimistic self-awareness, and doing self-exploration this way, but it comes off as immature once you're past a certain age, to do this without restraint, publicly. Part of me thinks that's really too bad. It doesn't hurt anyone that this guy's so enthusiastic. That so many people here have chose to infer he's the former extreme case gives me the creeps. The responses have been cynical and stuck-up, and it's sad. Y'all are the borg sometimes, and you don't even know it.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:34 AM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

occhiblu's explanation of the skeevy scale is exactly right. (on preview: ditto the hmsbeagle) As I said in the thread itself, it's one thing to meet someone in a cafe (or bar, or at a party), strike up a conversation, and determine that there's some mutual chemistry. There's a level of safety that's built into that for women (as occhiblu says, because of the particulars of those kinds of social settings) as a sense that we have some mutual say in the interaction -- we give you the eye, you give us the eye, a conversation is struck from there, which may lead to flirting, etc.

But being approached on the street is qualitatively different. Even beyond the safety issues, getting hit on in that context says, on some level, "You, lady, are on display. My reaction to your appearance and desire to make contact trumps your interest in minding your own business." That, I think, is why it's usually some combination of tiresome, irritating, insulting, and unsettling for women when we are approached this way, even when the guy in question is obviously not a homeless guy or a deranged stalker. It feels fundamentally disrespectful to have our privacy invaded, no matter how "good" or "complimentary" the intention.
posted by scody at 10:38 AM on December 19, 2007 [12 favorites]

box posted one of them

Oh thanks, you know, I skipped quickly past that because I thought it was jessamyn again posting her nerd tropes. But that's brilliant, truly either a work of staggering self actualisation or a masterful troll.
posted by meehawl at 10:38 AM on December 19, 2007

[god, I'm really overusing the ital tag these days. Sorry.]
posted by scody at 10:39 AM on December 19, 2007

"- monty python skit quoting?
- alien something or other?
- moleskine?
- fixie?
- t-shirts with code on them?
- giant belt buckles?
- hemp anything?
- TEE-vee?
- snakes on a plane nonsense?
- stuff to put in your clean hair to make it look unwashed?
- jewlery made out of perfectly functional items that were taken apart to make jewelry out of?
- leatherman?"

Nope. Insufferable.
Nope. Not interested.
Nope. Just heard about 'em.
Nope. Mountain bike.
Nope. Don't code.
Nope. I'm not Texan (though my Texan roommate could pull 'em off and I was vaguely jealous).
Huh?
Nope. Think Jackson is overplayed.
Nope. Just don't wash my hair all that often.
Nope.
Nope. Swiss Army Knife when I was in high school.

At 24 my affectations were: Doing drugs and listening to rock and roll. Now my affectations are doing drugs and listening to rock and roll.

I have never been this guy. I have never been friends with this guy. I have been a friend of a friend of this guy, and found him fucking insufferable. This guy is the one who's always hitting on my girlfriend, while I watch her roll her eyes. This guy is the one that makes every conversation about him. This guy is the one who assumes he's the perfect combination of Apollo and Dionysus when he's more Narcissus and Thamyris.

Oh, and fedoras? I wore one of my dad's in middle school. I was not 24 in middle school. The only other people I know who wear fedoras are all bald (including my dad).
posted by klangklangston at 10:43 AM on December 19, 2007 [4 favorites]

CKmtl, what I'm trying to get across is you don't need to yell "Howsa 'bout that ASS, bayBEE" to be disrespectful. Approaching strange women on the street, no matter how it is taken, is in of itself disrespectful. Read occhiblu's link here. That is basically the thought process a dude puts strange women through when he approaches them. Panic. Fear. Apprehension. Whatever you were doing, wherever you were going, it is now tainted by the spectre of Strange Random Male hanging over you. It sounds over-dramatic, but I swear to Christ it is not. "Am I going to upset him? Is he going to attack me? Oh God, I don't see many people around, am I going to be OK?" On the one hand, you could shut him down. But what if he gets mad? And if you're nice about it, will he take the hint or keep following you? You could make up an imaginary boyfriend, but what if that doesn't work? And you know, it's always in the back of your mind that these tactics don't always work. I've had guys try to convince me to "share" myself with them and my imaginary boyfriend. One of the times I busied myself on the cellphone to deter a guy, he tried to sexually assault me on the subway. Being nice has gotten me followed into a bookstore, and being mean has gotten the guy and his friends calling me bitch until my bus came and I could get on it. Running through the scenarios, trying to prepare for the worst, this is a terrifying experience. And if a woman has had enough bad experiences, than the fight-or-flight mode that pops up becomes instinctual. Every day. Every man.

So no fucking kidding, having mini subconscious panic attacks throughout the day does weigh on women. And a guy who will do that to a woman anyway, because he thinks he's different, to me that kind of guy doesn't actually give a shit about women because he's too wrapped up in himself and his needs. In a word, disrespectful. I don't give a shit about whatever romantic vision of Twu Wuv At Fwirst Swight that's sweeping him away (and in this case, he does it with "hundreds" of women so it's not that). Don't fucking do it. Save it for Craigslist's "Missed Connections", the likelihood of him succeeding is about the same.
posted by Anonymous at 10:44 AM on December 19, 2007

If I could favorite this comment twelve hundred times I would.

I feel like there's this huge amount of pressure on people to behave as though "How cute someone is" is the overriding factor (and I know, you now want to quote bad evolutionary psychology at me), but for me, "cuteness" is really closely tied to a man being very smart and funny and a good conversationalist. So it's really odd to me when someone approaches me with some variant of "You're pretty. Want to grab a drink sometime?" Why would I want to go out with someone who thinks I'm pretty, and who thinks that "prettiness" is why you should get coffee with someone? What if he's boring? What if he doesn't get my jokes? And why is he wearing that fedora?

This is particularly true.
posted by winna at 10:47 AM on December 19, 2007 [6 favorites]

Oh, and regarding hats, I have what is unfortunately referred to as "Erv Head," after my grandfather. Aside from ballcaps on the widest setting, hats simply sit perched upon my gigantic melon, making me look like an ape at a party.
posted by klangklangston at 10:51 AM on December 19, 2007

Ha! This thread is great.

I wear a fedora all the damn time. I wear it when I'm smithing, because it has a narrow brim, thus allowing for maximum visibility while keeping my long hair out of my face, and it isn't made of nylon or other stretchy materials that tend to burst into flame when an 1800 degree piece of slag touches it.

Furthermore, I wear german safety goggles, a tight black t-shirt and swing a six-pound sledge, all whilst basking in the glow of an Alcosa blast forge at full heat, covered head to toe in Virginia coal dust.

Take my fedora? I dare you.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:54 AM on December 19, 2007 [8 favorites]

CKmtl, what I'm trying to get across is you don't need to yell "Howsa 'bout that ASS, bayBEE" to be disrespectful. Approaching strange women on the street, no matter how it is taken, is in of itself disrespectful.

Yes. As grumblebee mentions in his thread about NYC women, I usually find it obnoxious (at best), because you know what? When I'm running around on the street, most of the time, I'M BUSY. I'm lucky some days if I have 20 minutes for lunch, to run to the bank, and to move my car from one metered spot to the other. I don't have time for some guy to walk up to me and tell me how long my legs are (this happened just a few weeks ago). First: I know they're long, buster; they're mine. Second: I have one minute left on the parking meter; are you gonna pay the 40 bucks if I get a ticket? Third: I don't care that you're nicely dressed and you're walking a cute basset hound; the fact that you believe that you, a stranger, are entitled to interrupt my daily life to make any remark about any part of my body is -- yes -- creepy, so fuck the fuck right off.
posted by scody at 10:58 AM on December 19, 2007 [9 favorites]

Whatever you were doing, wherever you were going, it is now tainted by the spectre of Strange Random Male hanging over you. It sounds over-dramatic, but I swear to Christ it is not.

Wow. I half expected to see But some of my best friends are men at the end of your comment.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 11:00 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Man, I've got this mental image of Steve Carell's character from Anchorman standing around on the street with a basset hound on a leash, just smiling super big with eyes wide and shouting unselfconsciously at scody from ten feet away.

"Your LEGS are LONG!"
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:02 AM on December 19, 2007 [10 favorites]

Scody, I bet Basset Hound Guy had this whole fantasy of how that conversation would go.

"Wow, your legs are so long!"

"Tee hee, really? Maybe they just look long, after walking your dog..."

"Yeah, he really is kind of stumpy, huh?"

"But so cute!"

"You like dogs?"

"Love them!"

"Well, Buster and I would sure like to meet up for a play date some time..."

"I'd love to!"

And... SCENE.

posted by thehmsbeagle at 11:02 AM on December 19, 2007 [5 favorites]

klang, it's plain as the beard on your face. That thing's loaded with significance and would have been a hugely affected style choice a mere 15 years ago. Luckily for us both (contraption's had a beard for approximately two weeks less than he's had me), they're in fashion now, so you get to act natural about it.

I'm trying to figure out my current affectations. They're pretty ho-hum, just your occasional cloak and corset stuff. Oh, I used to carry a white mouse, Gimlet. That's top-notch.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:04 AM on December 19, 2007

(And if the contrast between my vignette and thehmsbeagle's doesn't just about nail the human condition to the wall, I don't know what.)
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:08 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

I don't have time for some guy to walk up to me and tell me how long my legs are

That comment is a weird, offensive thing for someone you don't know to say to you. But it's not a good example of why men should not approach women on the street, ever. It's just another example of things they should not say when they do it.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:08 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Ain't my people, I like my nerds with a little less hubris and the furtive smell of unused pineapple lube.

Don't be accusing me of having unused lube, novice. *haughty sniff*

I admit I don't get all the hatin' on the playa-hatin. Johnny "The Wordsmith" Ladykiller posts an AskMe on "I'm winsome and AWESOME, what am I doing wrong, why don't I get laid more?" At that point, even "you're trying too hard" is going to come off as an offensive answer to a guy who sounds like he was desperately hoping for responses of "lol you are so cute drop me a MefiMail, lets hook up" or "I'm so straight I eat my hot dogs from the middle but even I'D bang you, bro... your clearly meeting frigid betties and just need to step up you're game."

I don't get the perspective, either, of "If only he'd have posted under his real name, and then maybe he'd have got a softer response." I'm not sure he deserved a softer response. This is not really the best environment or time in which to be asking AskMe for tips on how to more effectively accost women on the street, number one -- and number two, if you agree that he needed to get a message of "tone it DOWN already, if you sound like such a douche here, you must sound even douchier to the chicks you hit on," isn't it better that he did so in a way that saves face?

Let's face it -- only the Madmins* know who the dude is, and they are keeping mum. He can continue to walk among us with his head held high, and take the advice (strongly worded as some of it was) or totally leave it -- and only he knows which he decides. I think going anon was the right thing to do.

Also, I totally think it's a hoax and that y'all have been had.

* Yeah, it's a dumb contraction of "MetaFilter admins." So what. It's no worse than the endless unpronounceable concatenations.
posted by pineapple at 11:10 AM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

The poor poster is definitely guilty of going a little over the top on things, but I've seen so much worse here that hardly garnered any kind of critical response at all. I think this has just become some sort of meanness juggernaut or something, and maybe people are frustrated and cranky at this time of year.

and

That's why I thought and still think that he's not being intrinsically capital-D Disrespectful. And that he didn't deserve the public humiliation and OMG Worst Person EVER vibe that some are putting forth.

Thread drift.

MetaTalk, at least lately, has an ugly inclination towards mockery. There's some kind of weird fascination with humiliation, and not just passive. I know that shame plays a role in enforcing community standards, and also, like all other punishments, it's a crude tool. There's no need to seek out occasions for someone to feel emotionally exposed. It doesn't do the larger website any service and in particular, it corrodes the goodwill that comes out of AskMe. I'm not suggesting any increase in moderation, or any action at all. But it would be a good thing if we could ease up a little.
posted by BigSky at 11:11 AM on December 19, 2007 [4 favorites]

I suppose people were reacting to the total package presented but I have never been comfortable with dissecting the affectations or deficiencies in other people's style, even celebrity other people, which is why reading Gawker or something gives me hives. No doubt it is a nerd cliche, but it takes me too uncomfortably back to grade school, when we were dead broke and I wore cheap jeans and lumpy handmade sweaters to school every day, and glasses hanging from a chain so I wouldn't lose them and...well, you can just imagine the rest. Also, suggesting as some did that mainly only crazy or otherwise damaged women like no strings sex is just as naive and inaccurate as anything the original poster wrote. I do wish people would be more cautious with the easy generalizations and snark guns in AskMe, where after all the goal is to be helpful.

And also to answer your question, Lore, it depends. As plenty of women are pointing out, most of us feel serious anxiety if a strange man approaches us in the street. Once I grew up a bit and figured how to dress well on the cheap I had men ostentatiously ogle me, hey baby me, or even just interrupt some daydream with the information that I was cute, and it did scare me. More than once I walked right by the door to my own building so a man wouldn't know where I lived, or entered a store with no money pretending to shop.

Yet I have never forgot one young man from that time. The first time I saw him, he stopped dead in his tracks and smiled at me. I put my head down and walked neatly around him and he didn't try to follow me or talk to me, just let me go on. The next few times I saw him after that, he lit up and smiled and gradually I began to smile in reply, and to think about him every so often. The last time I saw him, he was with a friend across the street and I was carrying groceries, and he smiled so wide and waved so hard I thought he would dislocate his arm, and as we passed each other we stared into each other's eyes smiling and smiling. Soon after that I moved far away and never saw him again. But if I had stayed, and if he had stopped and smiled at me again, I would have stopped in my own tracks, and we would have had our first and no doubt halting conversation.

He let me go and he gave me time and he risked that we would never connect and that is what happened, but it is more sweet than sad. Most of us want sex and love or even just connection with another person, but such things can't be brute forced or acted out by script. I would say the most sensible universal approach is a very gentle one that you truly accept may never work out. If you are gracious about it, you may just get another chance -- if not with that person, then with the next one who comes along who makes you smile, and who you make smile back.
posted by melissa may at 11:11 AM on December 19, 2007 [47 favorites]

That is a nice story, melissa may.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:14 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

schroedinger: Yes, I get what you and occhiblu and thehmsbeagle and agregoli and scody mean safety, inner panic attacks, the personal space bubble being burst, etc. I got it when I read the dual MeTa Beasts. I still think the reaction the anonymous AskMe OP got was overboard, considering the level of disrespect.

You see how you five explained it just now to me and kkokkodalk? No hateful tone. No accusations of being a horrible human being. No allusions to being a sexual predator or stalker, or enabling them. No nitpicking of perceived foibles and character flaws.

The pinstriped woo-flinger probably didn't read the sexism threads, and was/is probably very clueless about how women feel about random attempts at conversation on the street/train. Hell, he himself says "... but 99% were grinning a mile-wide even if they said "No."" I'd be willing to bet the majority of those were nervous smiles and attempts on their parts to disarm the situation. Instead of people venting their spleens at the guy for being "one of those guys", he could have had his clue-level adjusted.
posted by CKmtl at 11:16 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Wow. I half expected to see "But some of my best friends are men" at the end of your comment.

Oh shit, you found me out! That's right, my middle name is Bulldyke, my occupation is kicking men in the junk and ripping out their testicles for my private collection, and I'm currently in the process of forming a Womyn-Only Commune where shaved armpits and any music except for k.d. lang and Melissa Ethridge will be punishable by death. Also, I kill babies because they're symbols of the patriarchy and the only reason I'm currently having sex with a guy is so I can have an abortion every month. Planned Parenthood is the fucking spa for me, you know.
posted by Anonymous at 11:17 AM on December 19, 2007

"klang, it's plain as the beard on your face. That thing's loaded with significance and would have been a hugely affected style choice a mere 15 years ago. Luckily for us both (contraption's had a beard for approximately two weeks less than he's had me), they're in fashion now, so you get to act natural about it."

Bah. Had it since I could grow it, with only brief moments of clean-shavedness ("Yes, ya 'anah, I wuz rollin' that stop sign, but ya can see I'm a memba of tha privileged classes, so can ya lemme off?"). A goatee? That's an affectation. A beard? Laziness, which is my true and honest form.

And frankly, I'm annoyed that it's "in fashion," as suddenly they're all over, and folks like you judge it as affectation. It's no more affectation than my girlfriend not shaving her legs—my default state is bearded, not shorn.
posted by klangklangston at 11:27 AM on December 19, 2007

Hear, hear. Lazy beardos unite!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:30 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

I have almost never given my number to men who "hit on me".

almost never != never
posted by waraw at 11:34 AM on December 19, 2007

That makes no sense. Why would you be annoyed at everyone wising up to the virtue of letting stupid shaving rituals fall by the wayside, if you didn't want your having a beard to be regarded as special somehow? And keep that "folks like you" bit for leg-shaving women without avowed bearded men preferences, who don't clearly state that the affectation label is 15 years old, and thus, has whiskers on it.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:35 AM on December 19, 2007

I really like beards.

It's saddening that suddenly hipster boys are sporting them, because I used to think of beards as a marker for a certain kind of manliness (the kind, for instance, that is suspicious of too much man-grooming and probably knows about mysterious things like roofing) and now you don't know if the guy is THAT kind of guy, or if he's just really into Destroyer.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 11:36 AM on December 19, 2007 [4 favorites]

mental image of Steve Carell's character from Anchorman standing around on the street with a basset hound on a leash, just smiling super big with eyes wide and shouting unselfconsciously at scody from ten feet away.

"Your LEGS are LONG!"

Heh. As long as my character would be played by either Maggie Gyllenhaal or Catherine Keener.

On preview: Hell, he himself says "... but 99% were grinning a mile-wide even if they said "No.""

Yes, and that comment was followed up by schroedinger who -- very accurately -- described those "smiles" what they more likely were: "that painful rictus women adopt when they're trying to exit a situation with a strange guy as fast as possible." It's a faux-smile that doesn't say "oh, you handsome devil!" It actually says, "this is awkward and I don't like it, but I'm going to try to remain socially pleasant while cutting this interaction short."

Hey, I smiled -- stiffly, with my lips pressed over my teeth and while glaring with my eyes -- at Long Legs guy the other day. Why? Because it was more important for me to be able to move my car immediately than to snap back "fuck off" and risk generating a scene on the street (because believe me, that's happened too -- you know, the "fucking bitch, you think you're too good for me?!?!?" kind? No? Not familiar with it? Well, plenty of women are, and it's hard to know what's going to trigger it, so we tend to try to sidestep it).

It's certainly possible that some portion of the women Anon hit on in public were smiling sincerely because they thought he was cute, or they were flattered, or whatever. But I flat-out guarantee you that some (quite possibly most) of those "grins" were actually the "if I smile while I say no, will you leave me the fuck alone?" kind.
posted by scody at 11:37 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

[oh, sorry, CKmtl: I see that you actually acknowledged the "nervous smile" reality. This is what I get for posting about this kind of topic whilst trying to talk on the phone at the same time!]
posted by scody at 11:41 AM on December 19, 2007

A goatee? That's an affectation.

My ass! My goatee is a mark of distinction and independence. It shows that I'm the kind of guy who's not afraid to "party" but that I'm also not a sloppy manchild. It says "I can rock you, baby, but only if you want me to." It's class and you can't fake class.

also, when I slick my hair back it makes me look like a supervillain.
posted by shmegegge at 11:43 AM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

I just want to know one thing: do people really go to parties and read books?
posted by xmutex at 11:44 AM on December 19, 2007

Wait, can I or can I not have a beard? Because this is important to me.
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:44 AM on December 19, 2007

Aw, melissa may. That is indeed a sweet story. I'm not downplaying anyone's inner anxiety or even their need to get on with their day, and again, I'm not arguing FOR the type of lady-approacher the original poster is. Hell, I know I'm not the most charitable person I know when it comes to human nature and can be pretty cynical, but I don't know, I live in New York too, and yes I'd be damned annoyed if some guy pestered me on my way to work and wouldn't let up even though I'd said no, but I'm just saying I'm not against the act of approaching or showing a stranger you're attracted to them. And I do get why some people don't like it. I've too have had some encounters with guys where I really was annoyed/disgusted/worried, but the one isn't always followed by the other is all. I just don't think because some people can't do it right, everyone should be discouraged from doing it (and this statement as well isn't a policy that works for every situation). I've had an encounter happen to me pretty similar to melissa may's story, and I've also had the experience of getting to know a great person from a clumsy drunken conversation. It takes all kinds if done properly. Nothing wrong with being a little wistful for a lovely chance encounter.
posted by kkokkodalk at 11:45 AM on December 19, 2007

A goatee? That's an affectation.

A large portion of evangelical youth pastors have goatees (at least, they did back when I was in church youth group circles). I can't decide what this says about goatees.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:46 AM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

I'll just restate in a better generality and hopefully end the "we love beards but only non-ironic ones" derail: Even the most natural personal style choices are affectations in the right context. All our hair grows long and ragged. Most of us cut it in some way. Convenience is only a part of that equation. Affectation is the rest. What kind of hat or print one wears is scarcely more significant than hairstyle.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:46 AM on December 19, 2007

stupid shaving rituals

hmm. I used to think of them that way. Then I realized that I just happen to like the way I look (though I have a goatee) when I'm clean shaven. Also, other people do too at times. Now, that last is more incidental, but I don't necessarily see wanting to look good to other people as ritualistic. Vain, I can grant you. So is makeup and deodorant, though. I wouldn't call shaving a stupid ritual any more than I would call using tinactin a "stupid foot fungus treatment ritual," though.
posted by shmegegge at 11:47 AM on December 19, 2007

I look pretty good with a beard, which, combined with hating shaving like poison, is why I wear one.
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:49 AM on December 19, 2007

When my wife first told me this:

"If I wear a skirt it is a 100% guarantee some fuckwad will say something vulgar to me on the street."

100%? I did not believe her. I thought that was in movies. Or in times past. It was so totally out of my experience. I certainly have never done that and to my knowledge nobody I am friends with has done that. But sure enough one day while walking with another couple - the gals walking in front of us - we passed a group of workers and two of the guys started up with "Give me your number!" and "wrap them stems around my face!" and shit like that. Yelling it. Had they not been behind a chain link fence I think I might have popped one of them I was so shocked and offended. They stopped the second they realized the women were "with men" which was almost more offensive.

Anyway.I say this becuase I met my wife in a "public" space. Kind of. A Kinkos. Though I had seen her there a number of times before I had no idea she had noticed me. So I sucked up my courage and I walked up to her with this idiotic line:

"Hi. Did I ever tell you about the time I met Micheal Stipe?" (which had been that day...and 'met' was he sat at the same table at a Washington Music Industry media event.) It was honestly all I could come up with.

So there is a difference. But maybe not by much. Not if your subject to that kind of thing day in day out.

After all. She didn't "know" me. And I certainly had no idea what she was about other than the superficial things and her sexual attractiveness to me. Maybe I was responding to cues she was giving off. She said she had thought I was attractive before we met. Consciously I didn't have a clue, really. It's a tough call. Romance is always going to be messy and risky.

Growing up with an older sister to set me straight and also an Army Bray being forced to be highly social all the time I developed social skills and a thick skin. Most men do not have that. I can see that for guys who have not much in the way of experience or natural charm just don't know when and where to first interact with women.

It's shocking and sad how many men are alone. I know at least 10 single men who are my age (or close to my age) that maybe go on three "dates" a year. If that. These are smart, funny, fairly good looking guys. 40 year old virgins are not rare. Especially if you are educated and in a career that doesn't make a ton of money. Our society manufactures lonely dudes who cannot talk to women and get routinely hammered for trying. They live in fear of rejection.

Loneliness kills people. So whenever possible we should maybe, like Jessamyn said, give this poor guy the benefit of the doubt and help him out rather than just shit on him.
posted by tkchrist at 11:53 AM on December 19, 2007 [23 favorites]

A large portion of evangelical youth pastors have goatees (at least, they did back when I was in church youth group circles). I can't decide what this says about goatees.

Weak chins. That, or that the goatee is the new mullet, business-party-dichotomy-wise anyway.
posted by box at 11:53 AM on December 19, 2007

Why would you be annoyed at everyone wising up to the virtue of letting stupid shaving rituals fall by the wayside, if you didn't want your having a beard to be regarded as special somehow?

in fashion now ≠ wising up to the virtue of letting stupid shaving rituals fall by the wayside

Speaking only from my own furry POV, the annoyance and resentment towards the beard's recent popularity stems from people now assuming I'm really into My Morning Jacket or Devendra Banhart. Or on preview, Destroyer, whom I also can't stand. Hey Bejar! Al Stewart called, he wants his cloying vocals back!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:55 AM on December 19, 2007

sorry, shmegegge, I really should have said "stupid shaving norms" or something. You know, whatever cultural standard it is that makes one way or the other more acceptable. Those are bad. I've had more grief over my damn legs than I can tell you. The rituals themselves, and personal style choices, and an acceptance of vanity, I can get behind.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:59 AM on December 19, 2007

oh! well then. never mind.
posted by shmegegge at 12:00 PM on December 19, 2007

I have a beard to keep my face warmer in this frigid times. The goatee was because without it, I look like I'm twelve, and I don't want people think I'm David frick'n Eckstein.

The astronaut helmet is for protecting my head from space.
posted by drezdn at 12:01 PM on December 19, 2007 [8 favorites]

Don't you guys know the soul patch is the mark of affectation!

What's with this facial hair prejudice. It's like the PLO forms to fight the oppressor and then fractures over what sunglasses to wear.

"Reflecto!"

"NO! RAY BANS!"

We must maintain our focus to fight the real oppressor. THE RAZOR!

It is the Gillet/Schick Conspiracy to circumcise our faces! And it must stop! UNITE!

My beard goes in stages. I'm kinda like Fred Flinstone in that I shave and forty seconds later, after I turn away from the mirror, "PAFF!" my beard grows back. So I shave in sectors. I let it grow for a week or two - like starting after a long weekend. And then shave it down in stages to allay my wifes complaints of the whisker burn. It goes from full beard to trimmed beard to goatee to Van Dyke to soul patch to clean shaven and then like spring to summer to fall to winter the natural cycle begins anew. It's beautiful when you think about it.
posted by tkchrist at 12:04 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

It takes me a while to grow a beard that doesn't look like pubic hairs taped to my face, but once it's in full bloom, it's a thing of majesty. Then I visit the relatives and it has to return to pube-taped-face level for a while.
posted by drezdn at 12:14 PM on December 19, 2007

Totally serious question:

So I've seen this a handful of times on MetaFilter, where people will explain that a lot of men in particular are very confused and very lonely, and that this is kind of a problem we need to do something about.

Is this a distinct issue from, say, "a lot of women are confused and lonely and live with a bunch of cats"?

I'm not being sarcastic. This is just something I wonder every time. Because it strikes me that since male-female numbers are very close to being a match in most areas, if there are a bunch of men feeling lonely and unloved, that means that there's also a bunch of woman feeling lonely and unloved, whereas the "Men are lonely!" thing seems to hold that women hold all the sexual power, ergo of course they couldn't be alone. Or something. I find it confusing, and would like to understand.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 12:21 PM on December 19, 2007 [8 favorites]

Me too, thehmsbeagle. I don't know why "men are lonely" is particularly distinct from all the lonely women I know alone in their apartments.
posted by agregoli at 12:27 PM on December 19, 2007

Speaking of Jamie Lynn Spears' pregnancy, I've been looking for an excuse to share this story on it - just for the juxtaposition of unrelated headline and photograph that make it appear that Woody Allen and Colin Farrell just heard the news at the same time, and each is concerned that he may be the father.
posted by nanojath at 12:33 PM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

I just want to know one thing: do people really go to parties and read books?

I observed this happening at parties in high school. Other than that, no.
posted by puke & cry at 12:35 PM on December 19, 2007

So I've seen this a handful of times on MetaFilter, where people will explain that a lot of men in particular are very confused and very lonely, and that this is kind of a problem we need to do something about.

Is this a distinct issue from, say, "a lot of women are confused and lonely and live with a bunch of cats"?

I can understand why you would ask this, but if you think about it it's kind of a silly question. Do we really have to mention the comparable trait in women every time we say something about men? Let's be honest. There is, at least where I'm at, a societal tendency for way more men to hit on women out on the street than vice versa. It's not THAT weird for someone to say "well, look, here's a perspective on that." It's pretty much understood that women also get lonely and do desperate or unfortunate things as well. Nobody's trying to say they don't, and I hope that no one is trying to excuse rude male behavior patterns. It's just a perspective. File it away under "something men may go through" but not under "something women don't go through." Really, it's not about the contrast, it's about sharing an observation.
posted by shmegegge at 12:42 PM on December 19, 2007

If I already didn't get my gift, I would have hoped this, the AskMe question and Jamie Lynn's pregnancy y'all was my Secret Quonsar. A Merry Quonsar to us all! Quonsar bless us, every one.
posted by spec80 at 12:44 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

I don't know why "men are lonely" is particularly distinct from all the lonely women I know alone in their apartments.

Nobody said it's distinct.

I'm not a woman. And 90% of the women I know are involved and in relationships. So I don't know about them.

But I do know a number of single men who, due to their less than stellar opposite sex social skills, will likely be bachelors eternally.

Though, also interesting, I have never heard a woman (or a man) even describe another woman as not having "male" related social skills. But the opposite appears to be crucial.
posted by tkchrist at 12:45 PM on December 19, 2007

My guess is that this guy is just using bluster to cover his self-centered fear, though not as bad as this guy, probably.

But even if he is a douche, so what? Why do you feel the need to try and fix that? Or, much worse, berate him. Its not your job.
posted by shothotbot at 12:47 PM on December 19, 2007

Well, the somewhat true generality, that I've seen quite often in men in my life, is that men don't share deep emotional material with anyone but their mates, so being bereft of a girlfriend is more damaging, whereas women will generally talk about those things with friends and family as well as their mates.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:49 PM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

I guess I don't get it. Talking about those lonely men seems to imply that women need to do something about it - change our behavior in some way to help out those lonely men. I can see that might be reaching on my part but I think that's why the question came out, "what about lonely women?"

People get lonely, no matter what their gender is, for various reasons. It does have something to do with how men and women interact. But I can't see saying that men approaching women they don't know on the street to ask them out is the best way to help alleviate men's lonliness.

Or maybe I'm just having an afternoon sugar crash cause I don't think I'M communicating effectively or correctly any more. Bah.
posted by agregoli at 12:52 PM on December 19, 2007 [3 favorites]

That's fair, AV. I can see that.
posted by agregoli at 12:52 PM on December 19, 2007

Is this a distinct issue from, say, "a lot of women are confused and lonely and live with a bunch of cats"?

Depends on what you think causes lonely cat women. If it's a matter of them being 'afraid' of men (I can't think of a better way to word that right now), or not being interested in socializing, then it's probably a different issue. If it's a low self-esteem, poor self-image, confidence thing... that could play a part in the sort of thing tkchrist brought up.

As far as I can tell, the issue is guys who think most women are unapproachable. Or wouldn't be interested in 'guys like me'. So they don't put themselves out there, dating-wise, much and it goes into self-fulfilling prophesy mode.

One of my best friends from highschool fits that mold pretty well. Last I heard, he's still dating the same girl since roughly just after graduation (10 years ago), no marriage plans or co-habitation plans that I've heard of. After they'd been together for a few years, she cheated on him during some summer job on the other side of the country, pretended everything was A-OK when her called her regularly, and pulled the "I'm not sure I love you anymore" thing at the welcome-home party he threw for her. He took her back anyway, even when people counseled him against it. His reasoning, in brief: If not her, then who? It seems like on some level he's staying in it just to have a girlfriend, and because he sees finding another girlfriend as almost impossible.

I haven't seen him in years, because it got to the point where she didn't like him going out without her, and he'd feel about about doing it. Plus, she became a rather sour person and I'd rather not be in her presence.
posted by CKmtl at 12:53 PM on December 19, 2007

Totally serious question:

So I've seen this a handful of times on MetaFilter, where people will explain that a lot of men in particular are very confused and very lonely, and that this is kind of a problem we need to do something about.

Is this a distinct issue from, say, "a lot of women are confused and lonely and live with a bunch of cats"?

I'm not being sarcastic. This is just something I wonder every time. Because it strikes me that since male-female numbers are very close to being a match in most areas, if there are a bunch of men feeling lonely and unloved, that means that there's also a bunch of woman feeling lonely and unloved, whereas the "Men are lonely!" thing seems to hold that women hold all the sexual power, ergo of course they couldn't be alone. Or something. I find it confusing, and would like to understand.

Serious answer.

Somewhat distinct. If you think, and some people do, that coupledom is one of the core elements of a life well lived, then in that respect, no distinction at all. But outside of the possibility of intimacy with one partner, women do much better than men in recognizing their social needs and meeting them. I think women have more friendships where there is a space for discussions that deal with issues like: the death of a parent, a stalled career path, a troubled child, etc. Many men who are in steady contact with friends from college or earlier can talk about these things with them. But in this increasingly nomadic society, a fair number have moved and then drifted away from prior relationships. And this is the big difference, women are capable of forming relationships that can carry those kinds of conversations much later in life. I see this with my Mom (60) who rapidly became close enough with a neighbor to become a sort of confidant about the struggles involved in raising an autistic child. Men forming a friendship like that may be possible but it isn't very likely. I have a hard time envisioning myself doing so.

Men more rarely acknowledge these needs and so they do a poorer job in finding a way to get them met and they are less receptive to being available to listen to someone else. If this was a more religious time some of this would probably be alleviated through the sacrament of confession. But it isn't. So, yeah, on average I think loneliness hits men harder than women.
posted by BigSky at 12:57 PM on December 19, 2007 [3 favorites]

"That makes no sense. Why would you be annoyed at everyone wising up to the virtue of letting stupid shaving rituals fall by the wayside, if you didn't want your having a beard to be regarded as special somehow? And keep that "folks like you" bit for leg-shaving women without avowed bearded men preferences, who don't clearly state that the affectation label is 15 years old, and thus, has whiskers on it."

I'm not annoyed by everyone wising up to the virtue of not shaving. I'm annoyed by fad beards that call my here-before-and-after beard into question. The bad money drives out the good. Just like I don't like people assuming that I believe in God just because I hang out with some Christians, or that I like Jandek because I know who he is.

But this: "Even the most natural personal style choices are affectations in the right context." is simply not true. Natural does not equal artificial and designed to impress, and inventing a context in which it does is bullshit.

Oh, and as to lonely men—They're almost universally problems of a standards miss-match, where men with obvious defects expect those defects to be overlooked by the "perfect" women that they encounter. I see it again and again with friends of mine, where guys who barely have their shit together expect to be going out with neuroscientist supermodels, instead of the kinda chubby girl that has a crush on them. They then generally decry women for "only liking assholes," instead of, you know, only liking men with passable hygiene and moderate self-sufficiency.

I can't speak to lonely women, though I'd imagine that an equal amount of self-delusion happens.
posted by klangklangston at 1:00 PM on December 19, 2007 [4 favorites]

Talking about those lonely men seems to imply that women need to do something about it - change our behavior in some way to help out those lonely men.

I think you didn't really understand what tkchrist said if you think he is implying that women need to do something about it. What he said was:

"So whenever possible we should maybe, like Jessamyn said, give this poor guy the benefit of the doubt and help him out rather than just shit on him."

That is the community should give him some constructive advice instead of shitting on him. Which is a good idea. Unless you, like me, think this is a hoax, in which case it's best just not to respond. In no case is shitting on him the best way to go about things.
posted by grouse at 1:02 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

"I guess I don't get it. Talking about those lonely men seems to imply that women need to do something about it - change our behavior in some way to help out those lonely men. I can see that might be reaching on my part but I think that's why the question came out, "what about lonely women?""

Oh, no, I see it much more as the guys talking about things that guys need to do to not be lonely guys. Women are assumed to be rather constant and interchangeable, in a broad population-type view.
posted by klangklangston at 1:03 PM on December 19, 2007

I can see that might be reaching on my part

Yes. I think it is.

Nobody is saying "women"in particular have to "do" something about it. It's weird you read it that way.

Our society at large better recognize what loneliness does to both genders.

Perhaps we worry more about lonely men because it's our men, that when loneliness turns inward to self hate, can do all sorts of destructive shit. I don't think that is a sexist observation.

Call that a sort of social blackmail. But it is an unfortunate fact. Men tend to be trouble for everybody the longer they go unsocialized and without intimate relationships. This phenomenon is surely not the eventuality in every case. Rare mostly. But still. It's there. It's fact.

So I think driving this doofus fedora guy back into the shadows with all that "Hurf Durf You Suck Asshole" isn't going to help him, us, or for that matter "lonely women."

So. Metafilter. What's wrong with being civil?

Didn't we discuss this at length before? It seems, if this thread and askme is any example, we are not making any progress on that front. Yes. Yes. I know.I'm as guilty as everybody else.

But what say we make that a new years resolution. A civil 2008.

(waits for the obligatory "Fuck you!")
posted by tkchrist at 1:08 PM on December 19, 2007 [3 favorites]

As far as I can tell, the issue is guys who think most women are unapproachable. Or wouldn't be interested in 'guys like me'. So they don't put themselves out there, dating-wise, much and it goes into self-fulfilling prophesy mode.

I hear the same thing from one of my girlfriends, interestingly enough. She doesn't approach guys and says, "They wouldn't be interested in a girl like me." She has a PhD in a complicated field and is warm and funny besides, so I don't agree with her in the slightest.
posted by agregoli at 1:11 PM on December 19, 2007

I think that this is, at its core, an entitlement issue and is closely related to the idea that any young American "deserves" to own an I-Phone or drive a BMW or whatever. "Why shouldn't I just be able to sleep with whoever the hell I want to? The people on t.v. do it."
posted by Baby_Balrog at 1:12 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

tkchrist, I honestly don't think it's a mean-spirited thing. I think it's simple situation comedy. An opportunity presented itself to lampoon an individual - an anonymous individual - who had really set themselves up to be mocked. And that's what happened. Imagine a guy at a bar, trying to win someone over, attempting to do a trick with a pint and a book of matches. Only, he spills the pint all over his lap. While he grins sheepishly, the fellow sitting to his right makes a joke at his expense. No big deal, right?
Now imagine that instead of the fellow to his right making the joke, every single person in the bar sees his foible, and uses it as an opportunity to jab the poor guy.
Like an avalanche of mock.
That's sort of what happened, in my mind.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 1:17 PM on December 19, 2007

Nobody is saying "women"in particular have to "do" something about it. It's weird you read it that way.

Uh..thanks? I tried to be honest and fair in my assessment and acknowledged I could be reading it differently than intended and still my thought process gets characterized as "weird." You don't think that's a little harsh? What happened to being civil? You should practice what you preach.

So I think driving this doofus fedora guy back into the shadows with all that "Hurf Durf You Suck Asshole" isn't going to help him, us, or for that matter "lonely women."

I don't understand why my participation in this discussion tangent about lonely men means that I endorse beating this guy up. I do think that his question earned him the knowledge of how he comes across, and that's basically what he's looking for. It went too far, yes, I agree with that. So if your continuing points are addressing me, you're barking up the wrong tree.
posted by agregoli at 1:17 PM on December 19, 2007

Ah... interesting. The "loneliness is more devastating to guys" theory makes sense. Thanks for explaining, everyone!

Say, MetaFilter totally needs a ASK A GUY/ASK A LADY thread.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 1:23 PM on December 19, 2007

Like an avalanche of mock.
That's sort of what happened, in my mind.

Yeah. And that is worse. For a group of supposed smart free thinkers to become back biting pack animals like that. I suppose we are all guilty.
posted by tkchrist at 1:26 PM on December 19, 2007

I think there is more concern about the Problem of Lonely Guys because (as tkchrist notes) lonely guys are more likely to shoot up a bunch of random strangers in a shopping mall, or engage in other violently anti-social behaviors.
posted by ottereroticist at 1:28 PM on December 19, 2007

MetaFilter: An Avalanche of Mock

I gotta say, as a relatively new poster, long-time lurker, this would be the best t-shirt ever for this place - people play rough, there's a lamentable tendency for people to whip out the verbal chainsaw at the least opportunity, and be very quick to take offense; when you get a bunch of smart people who would probably be a lot more cordial in person together... it can get ugly.
posted by canine epigram at 1:29 PM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

You don't think that's a little harsh? What happened to being civil? You should practice what you preach.

Sorry. I should have said 'unusual?' It's simply a conclusion I would have never come to is all.

So if your continuing points are addressing me

Not in particular. No. I'm addressing everybody in Metafilter. Including ME.

Agregoli, really, I'm not hounding you. I apologize if that is how it appears. Relax. It's all good.
posted by tkchrist at 1:30 PM on December 19, 2007

oh shit! I have the BEST FUCKING IDEA EVER!

We create nogirlsallowed.boysarestupidthrowrocksatthem.metafilter.com

then we get individual mefites to sign up, register what their gender is, and volunteer relationship advice.

then when people ask for relationship advice, the thread is split vertically in 2 halves. one side is the girls and one side is the boys.

then the heading of each column would say something like "She said" and "He said."

It's the best idea ever. You know it. The fights would be legendary. Oh god I love this idea.
posted by shmegegge at 1:31 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

I tried to be honest and fair in my assessment and acknowledged I could be reading it differently than intended and still my thought process gets characterized as "weird."

Well... take your example of your PhD girlfriend. Wouldn't you find it a bit weird if people took that as an implied entreaty for Men In General to do something about it?
posted by CKmtl at 1:32 PM on December 19, 2007

A goatee? That's an affectation.

I just wanted to point out, to those who may care, that my affectation, shit, goatee, is actually how my beard grows naturally. I blame it on the Native American cheeks I have. The fact that I shave my legs has nothing to do with anything, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

It is a bit disconcerting to see people wearing sweaters more expensive than my whole wardrobe sporting beards. But no more so than realizing years ago that just because someone is wearing Chuck Taylors means that they were the only shoes that didn't fall apart in a week that you or your parents could afford.

Pinstripes, christfuck no.

And, melissa may, I like that story.
posted by sleepy pete at 1:34 PM on December 19, 2007

Damn, shmegegge, that IS a good idea.

[ TK begins domain purchase and patent of he-said-she-said-let-me-help.com]

[shmegegge hires hit man]
posted by tkchrist at 1:34 PM on December 19, 2007

Agregoli, really, I'm not hounding you. I apologize if that is how it appears. Relax. It's all good.

Thank you for your apology, but I'm ever more annoyed that you're telling me to relax when I'm not excited. I responded to your "weird" comment cause it hurt my feelings when I tried REALLY GODDAMN HARD dammit, to be fair in my assessment of the comment about lonely men, and even said in my comment that I might be reading it wrong. To be told my thought process was "weird" (other people will think differently than you - that's not "weird," it's how the world works) hurt my feelings today, and perhaps I'm a bit sensitive cause of current events in my life, but I don't think it was at all wrong of me to say that it offended me for you to characterize my comments that way. I don't think I went flying off the handle at you about it.

Well... take your example of your PhD girlfriend. Wouldn't you find it a bit weird if people took that as an implied entreaty for Men In General to do something about it?

Those were totally separate comments so I don't see how they are comparable at all. My example wasn't in connection with comments about lonely men in general, I wasn't trying to make an overall point that could be taken different ways. I explained how I took it and said that I could be thinking about it wrong, and yet my thought process is "weird." How about "I don't understand how you got that - I see it this way" which you basically did - I would just drop the insult next time.

It's not about me, though, so move on, please. I've tried to be honest and civil in my replies and that's all I can do.

I think this probably should have been in Memail and I'll take it there if there's anything else. I don't wanna derail the thread, this stuff is good.
posted by agregoli at 1:41 PM on December 19, 2007

He's a misfit, he's our people...

I didn't realize MeFi was a poorly-conceived abbreviation for MisFit. Is there a general view that everyone who visits MetaFilter must be a misfit or they wouldn't be here? The last time I checked, this little Internet thing is used by people of (almost) all age groups and socioeconomic backgrounds; surely you're not taking a broader swipe and saying that anyone who bothers to visit this site looking for intelligent conversation must be a misfit?

NOT INTELLECTUALIST.
posted by davejay at 1:42 PM on December 19, 2007

having said that, yes, I do play the ukulele, but I think that just makes me old-timey.
posted by davejay at 1:44 PM on December 19, 2007

LOL, davejay, yes, that makes you old-timey. And maybe a little Don Ho-ey.
posted by agregoli at 1:46 PM on December 19, 2007

Thank you for your apology, but I'm ever more annoyed that you're telling me to relax when I'm not excited.

Sheesh.
Then there is nothing more I can do. Carry on.
posted by tkchrist at 1:47 PM on December 19, 2007

It was condescending to say that when I was politely addressing you. That's my take on it. I'm sorry you cannot address me on that level. Carry on indeed.
posted by agregoli at 1:51 PM on December 19, 2007

(And from your last comment, it's clear you're not interested in actually listening or understanding my thought processes anyway. I'm also sorry I wasted my time.)
posted by agregoli at 1:52 PM on December 19, 2007

But this: "Even the most natural personal style choices are affectations in the right context." is simply not true. Natural does not equal artificial and designed to impress, and inventing a context in which it does is bullshit.

Whosoever thinks they are righteous in surveying the line between "natural self-expression" and "artificial behavioral affectation" is a pompous prick, is what I'm saying.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:53 PM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

I think there is more concern about the Problem of Lonely Guys because (as tkchrist notes) lonely guys are more likely to shoot up a bunch of random strangers in a shopping mall, or engage in other violently anti-social behaviors.

To get back on track, though, does anyone actually believe that this is due to simple lonliness and not lonliness coupled with a severe mental issue? It's not like your typical lonely guy turns to violence.
posted by agregoli at 1:54 PM on December 19, 2007

agregoli, I can't win for losing here. I appologized. Sincerely. There is nothing more I can do.

You're taking perfectly innocent comments and blowing them way out of proportion. I shouldn't have to apologize twice for nothing.

You are now bordering on abusing the issue for some unknown reason. Everything I say appears to be fanning the flames. Which is you. Not me. Really. I am your friend here.
posted by tkchrist at 1:59 PM on December 19, 2007

tkchrist has Strange Random Male Spectre Taint! Lock down the shopping malls before the shooting starts!
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 2:02 PM on December 19, 2007

tkchrist, I honestly don't think it's a mean-spirited thing. I think it's simple situation comedy.
...
Now imagine that instead of the fellow to his right making the joke, every single person in the bar sees his foible, and uses it as an opportunity to jab the poor guy.

Come on. When person after person makes a joke at the same person's expense, it's not just more of it. There's a qualitative effect as well. Someone is being made a target and just about everybody recognizes it. When that target status is the common consensus, people take shots just because they can.

And that's my definition of mean-spirited.
posted by BigSky at 2:03 PM on December 19, 2007

"Whosoever thinks they are righteous in surveying the line between "natural self-expression" and "artificial behavioral affectation" is a pompous prick, is what I'm saying."

That's Ok. You say a lot of wrong things.

A fake accent is an affectation. A beard is not. Anachronistic clothing is an affectation. Being generally and contemporaneously well-dressed is not. If you seriously believe that there is no ability do discern natural self-expression from an affectation, I do not believe you know what "affectation" means.
posted by klangklangston at 2:03 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

"It's not like your typical lonely guy turns to violence."

No, they usually turn to self-abuse.
posted by klangklangston at 2:04 PM on December 19, 2007

Beards just grow. I don't ask it to. It just does. If anything shaving is an affectation.

I suppose If you dye them and shave them into Klingon Battle Cruiser shapes that would be an "affectation."
posted by tkchrist at 2:05 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

tkchrist has Strange Random Male Spectre Taint!

My taint is no spectre but it is strange.
posted by tkchrist at 2:07 PM on December 19, 2007

agregoli, I can't win for losing here. I appologized. Sincerely. There is nothing more I can do.

Which I accepted. Honestly, I do appreciate it. But you've kind of ignored any of my other points. I guess I can accept that, but it really didn't feel like you cared at all about what I was, you know, actually trying to say.

You are now bordering on abusing the issue for some unknown reason. Everything I say appears to be fanning the flames. Which is you. Not me. Really. I am your friend here.

Unknown reason? I've explained why I reacted the way I did. If you didn't get that, or want to disregard it, I can't change that, but please stop characterizing me as taking this out of proportion when I'm only trying to explain my side. I am getting upset because you are ignoring my feelings and acting as if I'm being irrational by explaining them. If you thought it was too much for me to try to explain why I was upset, I apologize for that but I don't know what else to do to be understood.

If you need a "better" reason to dismiss my complaints, you can know that there's been a death in the family, and I'm not feeling that great and shouldn't be participating in discussions where my posts about working through my thoughts on an issue might not be received with thoughtfulness but instead what came across to me as derision. I apologize again for mischaracterizing your intent but I think it's entirely fair to state how I felt you came across to me. Isn't that what good discussion is all about? No hard feelings from me and hopefully none from you.
posted by agregoli at 2:08 PM on December 19, 2007

I'm mostly annoyed that I still can't affect a nice full beard. My cheeks aren't giving 110%.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:10 PM on December 19, 2007

We create nogirlsallowed.boysarestupidthrowrocksatthem.metafilter.com

Please bookmark accordingly.
posted by meehawl at 2:11 PM on December 19, 2007

I apologize again for mischaracterizing your intent but I think it's entirely fair to state how I felt you came across to me. Isn't that what good discussion is all about? No hard feelings from me and hopefully none from you.

No problem. None at all.

My condolences to your family. I'm sorry to hear or your loss. Truly.
posted by tkchrist at 2:15 PM on December 19, 2007

Dewey Decimal? Fuck that shit. LC owns. This guy is absolutely a wanker if he prefers Dewey.
posted by the dief at 2:17 PM on December 19, 2007 [4 favorites]

Thank you. Feeling a bit at the end of my rope and more sensitive than I should be. Sorry about that. Have I averted a near-flame-out or am I still smoldering?
posted by agregoli at 2:20 PM on December 19, 2007

I'm mostly annoyed that I still can't affect a nice full beard. My cheeks aren't giving 110%.

May I suggest a therapy? Just loop the Ursula Andress in the spear fishing bikini emerging from the surf scene in Dr.No. That will get some hair to grow.
posted by tkchrist at 2:20 PM on December 19, 2007

Have I averted a near-flame-out or am I still smoldering?

Depends. What's your take on SUVs?
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:21 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

"It's not like your typical lonely guy turns to violence."

In primate societies there are two types of males: the ones who get laid and the ones who don't. The dominant males, who are getting laid, are sweethearts who love to sit around grooming and getting groomed and playing with the kids. The beta males get really frustrated, blow into the group and beat the shit out of the females until an alpha beats them up or chases them off.

Just like humans on Friday night.

Also, if you take a dominant monkey or chimp and paint him pink the others will beat him up, possibly kill him. What do suppose they'll do if you dress him in pinstripes and a fedora?
posted by RussHy at 2:21 PM on December 19, 2007

Having bodymods, wearing any branded or text-containing clothing, lifts, certain hats, wearing certain moustaches, corsets, false eyelashes, vintage clothing, colored contacts, dyed hair, speaking the King's English,... all these things and more could be seen as affectations or not, totally dependent on context and proximity to cynics. It's. Relative.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:21 PM on December 19, 2007

Is there a general view that everyone who visits MetaFilter must be a misfit

It's my view, yes. Maybe not all visitors, but anyone who is enough of a True Believer to spend time in MetaTalk. But I don't mean it in a bad way.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:25 PM on December 19, 2007

Yes, Ambrosia Voyeur, context is important. When and where I grew up, men with shoulder length hair and beards routinely got beat up and forcibly shaved shorn, even though there was no law broken and their look was appropriate elsewhere.
posted by RussHy at 2:26 PM on December 19, 2007

all these things and more could be seen as affectations or not

I guess if it only matters if you view an affectation as something bad.

When my wife wears the Swiss Miss outfit and yodels for the cows to get into the barn well that is certainly a good affectation... oops I have said too much already.
posted by tkchrist at 2:26 PM on December 19, 2007

Some things are relative != All things are relative.
posted by klangklangston at 2:27 PM on December 19, 2007

SUVs SHOULD BE CIRCUMCISED AND PUT ON A DIET, AND I'LL HORNSWOGGLE ANY SWAMP-GUZZLING TOAD-RUSTLING SON-OF-A-BEACHBALL WHAT SAYS OTHERWISE.
posted by languagehat at 2:28 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

[NOT BEACHBALLIST]
posted by languagehat at 2:28 PM on December 19, 2007

but anyone who is enough of a True Believer to spend time in MetaTalk.

I'm enough of a True Believer to catch the Stan Lee Reference! I love Metafilter!
posted by shmegegge at 2:29 PM on December 19, 2007

Huh.

misfit -> miss-fit -> poor fit (for a given context, implicitly Society In General)?

I mean, I'm familiar with the word, but I'd never given it any thought. That's pure armchair folk etymology there, but if any fartchickens can confirm or deny I'd be thrilled.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:30 PM on December 19, 2007

Depends. What's your take on SUVs?

Hurf durf gas guzzlers?
posted by agregoli at 2:31 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

[a few comments removed - if you want to suggest that it's OK to approach women on the street, please take it to mefi mail.]
posted by klue at 2:31 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

misfit -> miss-fit -> poor fit I mean, I'm familiar with the word, but I'd never given it any thought.

Now I know it for sure, you are on some fucking drugs.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:35 PM on December 19, 2007 [3 favorites]

I am high on 100% pure tar LIFE.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:37 PM on December 19, 2007

I thought that True Believer was an Eric Hoffer reference.
posted by box at 2:38 PM on December 19, 2007

Because everyone knows that it comes from Miss Fit, the distaff Mr. Fit.
posted by klangklangston at 2:38 PM on December 19, 2007

Gotta agree with the dief.
Dewey Decimal? Totally a poser.
posted by needled at 2:40 PM on December 19, 2007

Hoffer, ftw.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:44 PM on December 19, 2007

god dammit.
posted by shmegegge at 2:46 PM on December 19, 2007

I just want to know one thing: do people really go to parties and read books?

I used to, then last year someone told me that was rude. So now I just go and sit around for 10 minutes, walk around with plastered smile for 5, sit for 10, walk for 10, leave. And try to remember to avoid parties.
posted by Danila at 2:46 PM on December 19, 2007

Yeah, 'walk around with plastered smile' is a big part of my party-attending strategy too.
posted by box at 2:47 PM on December 19, 2007

Wow-- still steaming along in here, I see. WCityMike, I just want to thank you. This thread was one of the best presents I've ever gotten. I mean, I know you didn't do it for me, but a boy can pretend, can't he?

Or is that an affectation?
posted by dersins at 2:48 PM on December 19, 2007

for real? what the hell kind of parties are you guys going to? don't you have friends you like to hang out with who throw parties? I mean, an office party fine, I dig that. But damn if I'd ever go to a party where my only recourse would be to look happy for half an hour then leave, otherwise.
posted by shmegegge at 2:49 PM on December 19, 2007

misfit -> miss-fit -> poor fit (for a given context, implicitly Society In General)?
I mean, I'm familiar with the word, but I'd never given it any thought. That's pure armchair folk etymology there, but if any fartchickens can confirm or deny I'd be thrilled.

Congratulations, you win the Armchair Folk Etymology Award for the week!

OED:

1. a. A garment or other article which does not fit (or occas. suit) the person for whom it is intended. Also in extended use. Now rare.
1823 ‘J. BEE’ Slang, Misfits—clothes which do not suit the wearer's shape. Hence, ‘'tis a misfit’, when a story, or some endeavour fails of its effect, then ‘it von't fit’. 1861 H. MAYHEW London Labour (new ed.) III. 232/2 There are a number of [artificial] eyes come over from France, but these are generally what we call misfits. 1865 C. KNIGHT Passages Working Life III. x. 213 [The] shoemaker.. would occasionally have a misfit or two on his hands. 1866 W. COLLINS Armadale II. viii. 241 There are some unfortunate people in this world, whose names are—how can I express it?—whose names are, Misfits. 1891 G. B. SHAW in World 13 May 27/2 He was put out of countenance from the beginning by being clothed in a seedy misfit which made him look lamentably down on his luck. 1926 People's Home Jrnl. Feb. 14/1 Frocks and coats and hats can be as strange a misfit as if a canary dressed up like a bluejay.

b. Failure of a garment to fit correctly; the quality or fact of fitting a person badly. Also (in extended use): inaccurate fit; (hence) unsuitability, disparity, inconsistency.
1844 Chambers's Edinb. Jrnl. 1 June 338/2 The tailor examined every seam, without finding out the cause of the misfit. [...]

2. A person unsuited or ill-suited to his or her environment, work, etc.; spec. one set apart from or rejected by others for his or her conspicuously odd, unusual, or anti-social behaviour and attitudes.
1860 R. W. EMERSON Beauty in Conduct of Life 262 The man is.. borrowed unequally from good and bad ancestors, and a misfit from the start. 1903 C. E. OSBORNE Life Father Dolling vi, Amid the streets of Landport Father Dolling was no deplorable misfit. 1936 Discovery Sept. 280/1 The selection and training of personnel to eliminate as far as possible the misfit and (what is far more prevalent) the partial misfit who just stands the test of results but has really missed his vocation. 1959 Times Lit. Suppl. 30 Jan. 57/1 He is a determined individualist, wears Afrika Korps uniform while serving in the British Army and is something of a misfit. 1975 Times 20 Aug. 4/8 The police.. said young misfits were taking as their victims other car drivers. 1993 Independent on Sunday 25 July (Review Suppl.) 9/4 In the book, Marathon, Cascadia is a rigidly conformist cow-college town, with a winning football team and a paranoid contempt for Reds, misfits and intellectuals.

So it was Emerson who was responsible for the extended use we know and love today. How about that?

Your prize: an armchair etymology. Here it is:

arm + chair
posted by languagehat at 2:51 PM on December 19, 2007 [4 favorites]

Can't speak for Danila, but I was just making a little joke involving the multiple meanings of 'plastered,' shmegegge.
posted by box at 2:54 PM on December 19, 2007

So in a sense, this whole thread has been about the fedora being a 1b. misfit.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:01 PM on December 19, 2007

*polishes award, sets it back on mantle, relaxes in armed chair*
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:02 PM on December 19, 2007

Calling the guy 'the fedora' might be seen by some people as insensitive.
posted by box at 3:02 PM on December 19, 2007

To get back on track, though, does anyone actually believe that this is due to simple lonliness and not lonliness coupled with a severe mental issue? It's not like your typical lonely guy turns to violence.

For the most part, I think loneliness is a contributory factor along with some flavour of mental illness. Mostly as lack of or poor social support network sort of thing.

I think what really tips them over the edge into shooting-rampage mode is hopelessness. Hopelessness w.r.t. being lonely, or being ostracized/bullied (I'm thinking of school shootings in particular with that one), or job dissatisfaction, or whatever. They think their current situations royally sucks, and nothing they can do will change it, so they snap. I'm not quite sure what differentiates would-be shooters from suicide-attempters... maybe it's in what they attribute their life's level of suck to: themselves, or the world around them. *shrug*
posted by CKmtl at 3:05 PM on December 19, 2007

Calling the guy 'the fedora' might be seen by some people as insensitive.

No, no, I was talking about the actual hat itself, and the wearing thereof.

[NOT METONYMIST]
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:09 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Wow, I'm still reeling from the revelation that cortex's cheeks are betraying him as mine disappoint me. This damned babyface forces me to rock a goatee lest I get carded buying cigarettes until I'm 50 (I'm 34 now). If it comes across as an affectation, well, I'm married, so it hardly matters.

(Speaking of affectations, I'm still irritated from over a decade ago, when I shaved off all my lovely, long, golden locks. I enjoyed a few months of bad ass individualism before Billy Corgan went bald, and suddenly every little hipster wanna-be was smooth domed. I still hate him for that!)
posted by Banky_Edwards at 3:11 PM on December 19, 2007

comPLETEly missed box's joke.
posted by shmegegge at 3:28 PM on December 19, 2007

Although he's pretty convinced he's fedorable.
posted by dersins at 3:41 PM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

Fedilicious, even.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:00 PM on December 19, 2007

to be honest, 'tex, I'm surprised you can relax in a chair that's armed... don't most gun accidents occur in the home?
posted by heeeraldo at 4:03 PM on December 19, 2007

Fediculous.
posted by wafaa at 4:25 PM on December 19, 2007

Fedorable. *coo*
posted by Baby_Balrog at 4:44 PM on December 19, 2007

So I've seen this a handful of times on MetaFilter, where people will explain that a lot of men in particular are very confused and very lonely, and that this is kind of a problem we need to do something about.

Is this a distinct issue from, say, "a lot of women are confused and lonely and live with a bunch of cats"?

let's invite both groups to a barn dance and find out!

(also, I agree with those who have said that hitting on random women on the street is weird at best and scary at worst. I once interviewed for an apartment on Staten Island. The woman seemed kind of flakey from the get-go, but halfways through the interview, apropos of nothing she began chopping mushrooms, scrambling eggs and frying them up in a pan. She was cooking an omelet without warning. I was kind of freaked out.

His method of 'wooing' is kind of like that)

Also, speaking as a straight guy who has attempted to woo his share of women, I really can't imagine it working. "You're pretty?" By the time she's twenty every girl has heard 'you're pretty' or some variation thereof about a zillion times. Combined with his outfit, the whole shtick probably has women looking behing shrubs for Allen Funt .
posted by jonmc at 4:50 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

What the hell was Funt's "naughty" movie?
posted by klangklangston at 5:01 PM on December 19, 2007

When and where I grew up, men with shoulder length hair and beards routinely got beat up and forcibly shaved shorn, even though there was no law broken and their look was appropriate elsewhere.

When and where was this? Routinely? In the U.S.?

My family is in the rural South. It's a conservative place; the WWII generation was so influential that no one publicly expressed any reservations about Vietnam until well after the Tet Offensive. And I've never heard of anything approaching that intensity. Unfriendly towards hippies? Sure, they might even get sucker punched. But that's still quite a ways from what you're talking about.
posted by BigSky at 5:09 PM on December 19, 2007

But even if he is a douche, so what? Why do you feel the need to try and fix that?

Because he asked for our opinions? And douchiness and getting laid often cancel each other out? I maintain my argument from earlier -- that the mere fact of telling the guy that he probably comes off douchey isn't somehow a de facto bad thing, how he was told it notwithstanding.

My ass! My goatee is a mark of distinction and independence. It shows that I'm the kind of guy who's not afraid to "party" but that I'm also not a sloppy manchild. It says "I can rock you, baby, but only if you want me to." It's class and you can't fake class.... also, when I slick my hair back it makes me look like a supervillain.

I have never clicked on a username to see a profile so fast, ever.

tkchrist has Strange Random Male Spectre Taint!

Heh... you said... taint.
posted by pineapple at 5:13 PM on December 19, 2007

When and where was this?

Yeah, I'm curious about that too. I was around some pretty conservative folks back when "longhair" became an insult, and I never saw or heard of anything like that. (My Aunt Bettie suckered my roommate Jim into letting her give him a haircut and totally ruined his "long as I can grow it" look, but that's not really the same thing.)
posted by languagehat at 5:17 PM on December 19, 2007

Wherever it was, I bet they also spat on returning Vietnam vets.
posted by box at 5:57 PM on December 19, 2007

LEAVE RAMBO ALONE!!!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 6:02 PM on December 19, 2007

Generally I think being told to relax or calm down or any variation of that is really horribly condescending, and should be avoided whenever the goal of speaking/writing is actually communication.

Also I would have presumed that men who are lonely and violent/psychopathic are lonely (hopelessly or otherwise) because they are violent/psychopathic, not the other way around, and it would be better to fix the violence/pychopath...os? than to inflict it on any one individual. Besides, it's not like there aren't tons of men being violent to their spouses, so it's pretty clear that partnered-ness isn't an antidote to violence, it's more like sacrificing an individual to protect the masses...
posted by Salamandrous at 6:17 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Of the run-ins I've had with Anonymous-Fedorahead types of guys, the majority of them are short in height and developed quirks/devices to compensate. It seems that their wacked approach and spunky persistence garnered attention at some point and they feel they have nothing to lose. Differentiating the type of attention (interested, polite, or alarmed) seems to be another weakness of the genus.

Height-ist? Maybe.
posted by bonobo at 6:21 PM on December 19, 2007

Anonymous Fedorahead would be a great band name. I'm just saying.
posted by jonmc at 6:25 PM on December 19, 2007

Incidentally there, "Tex," didn't we have an agreement about you and these long-ass user names? 'Cause I'd have sworn...

I don't think so, but feel free to refresh my memory.
posted by "Tex" Connor and the Wily Roundup Boys at 6:36 PM on December 19, 2007

Also I would have presumed that men who are lonely and violent/psychopathic are lonely (hopelessly or otherwise) because they are violent/psychopathic, not the other way around, and it would be better to fix the violence/pychopath...os? than to inflict it on any one individual.

Psychopathology.

I don't think anyone's saying that [loneliness] ---> [violence + mental illness], with the arrow meaning "can possibly lead to". That would indeed be a strange claim. By contributory factor, I meant:

[loneliness / poor social support] + [(some kinds of) mental illness] + [hopelessness] + [probably a bunch of other stuff] ---> [big anti-social violent outburst, like mall/school/office shootings]

Sure, intervening with the mental illness would be better than intervening with any one other thing on the right side of the arrow. But the other things on that side of the arrow can effect the outcome of the mental illness intervention. I don't have any specific literature to cite, but I'm nearly certain that quality of a person's social support network (friends, family, SOs; a 'lonely' person would probably have a crap one) has an effect on treatment outcome. So, ideally, *all* the contributory factors would be addressed.
posted by CKmtl at 6:43 PM on December 19, 2007

for real? what the hell kind of parties are you guys going to? don't you have friends you like to hang out with who throw parties?

I only go to parties because my friends don't want to go alone, and also because if your friend throws a party the right thing to do is to go, teeth-gritting and all. I hate them. I'm a loner, I like it, sometimes I wonder why I hold on to friendships at all. They always want to talk on the phone, send emails and stuff. Can't we just care about each other in our hearts and leave it at that?

So yeah, I like to read books at parties, but I am also weird.

Yeah, 'walk around with plastered smile' is a big part of my party-attending strategy too.

No matter what, I always end up embarassed and ashamed. One hard lemonade is enough to have me crying over the spiders I've killed.
posted by Danila at 6:55 PM on December 19, 2007 [6 favorites]

MetaFilter: It can get ugly
posted by deborah at 6:57 PM on December 19, 2007

May I suggest a therapy? Just loop the Ursula Andress in the spear fishing bikini emerging from the surf scene in Dr.No. That will get some hair to grow.

Only on my palms. Hasn't helped my facial hair.

Look, I'm a large, sometimes scary-looking guy, physically very comfortable with myself, very hard to intimidate. When I am on a city street and someone -- even an attractive, young woman dressed and talking like she's middle class -- my fight-or-flight response kicks in big time; I immediately glaze my eyes over and look for an escape path, because in my experience people never start talking to me on the street unless they want something, and I sure as shit don't want to give whatever it is they want to them. Yesterday it was some dude wanting "bus money"; the other day it was some woman asking directions but being kind of weird about it. Trust me, crowded city streets are the wrong place to go practicing pickup lines.

If we are on the street, and some random guy (fedora or no) starts putting the moves on my sweetie (and yes, this happens pretty often, if I am more than 10 feet away -- there are a lot of Mr Smooth's out there), I get real protective real fast. But in a cafe? In a bar? At a party? Totally different. You can try your snazzy lines on her all night long, and all I will do is roll my eyes, because those are places where sociality is expected, and there are a lot of people to help intercede if Mr Smooth can't hear the word "no." She doesn't feel threatened, I don't feel threatened, everyone is happy.

But even then, I wish more guys would learn how to pick up on basic social cues, like a woman looking uncomfortable and trying to get away. It's surprisingly often that I have had to do that "guy thing" thehmsbeagle talks about. Not to save some damsel in distress from the Boston Strangler, but just from some basically nice-enough guy who can't quite get the nuances of personal space right. And they aren't aware they are getting it wrong; they just keep doing it. I've often wondered why my most bitterly and unhappily single male friends can't seem to crack the code of normal, non-weird interactions with women. I think that as a society we don't give a lot of support to men who didn't grasp this stuff early and on their own; once you are in the rut of getting it wrong, it is hard to change that.
posted by Forktine at 7:10 PM on December 19, 2007 [12 favorites]

And that's the difference, I think, between the unhappily single men I know, and the not-quite-so-unhappily single women I'm friends with. The men genuinely don't seem to get how what they are doing is actively unproductive in terms of getting a girlfriend -- their dress, their body-language, even their ways of talking, all produce an effect that is the opposite of "take me to your bedroom, please." Whereas the cat ladies I know tend to have a much deeper awareness of how the outcome they are getting (singleness) is in large part the result of the choices they are making (t-shirts with photos of their cats, hanging out mostly with other cat ladies, always saying "no" to second dates, whatever).
posted by Forktine at 7:36 PM on December 19, 2007 [2 favorites]

When I was in high school, I was in a little garage band. Black Dahlia. We played one gig, ever.

Our lead guitarist, a guy named Rodney, borrowed my black fedora. This was 1989, so fedoras were issued on demand at the local Merry-Go-Round. Anyway, he borrowed it. And he kept it.

Something tells me that I should track him down and thank him.

(Probably ought to thank him for kicking me out of the band, too.)
posted by grabbingsand at 7:54 PM on December 19, 2007

For the record, let me state that, except in the case of languagehat, on whom a fedora looks dashing, I'm sure, I am strongly anti-fedora and even more strongly anti-fedora and pin-stripes. Really. The only way to be a bigger nerd is to campaign for Ron Paul on the internet.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:00 PM on December 19, 2007

Of the run-ins I've had with Anonymous-Fedorahead types of guys, the majority of them are short in height and developed quirks/devices to compensate. It seems that their wacked approach and spunky persistence garnered attention at some point and they feel they have nothing to lose. Differentiating the type of attention (interested, polite, or alarmed) seems to be another weakness of the genus.

Height-ist? Maybe.

Maybe not, too. For what it's worth, the former friend of mine that The Fedora strikingly resembles was also a shrimpy little fella.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:02 PM on December 19, 2007

The only way to be a bigger nerd is to campaign for Ron Paul on the internet.

Oh come on! That's like jumping from stealing a piece of gum to murder on the crime spectrum.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:02 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Well, yeah, but the cat lady impression I always got was more of a compulsion—they know these things lead to loneliness, but can't stop doing 'em. The guys are always willing to argue that you're just misunderstanding how incredibly awesome they are (or change).

I dunno. I've probably been watching too much Gordon Ramsay on BBC America.
posted by klangklangston at 8:03 PM on December 19, 2007

This is how one single friend of mine is trying to meet the ladies. I think it's pretty dang awesome.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:10 PM on December 19, 2007

That's like jumping from stealing a piece of gum to murder on the crime spectrum.

Ok. I exaggerate. You need a Slashdot account, too.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:14 PM on December 19, 2007

I don't attract women because I'm ugly and a loathsome person.

I'm actually considering convincing myself that my failure to attract women is because they don't understand my awesomeness. This wouldn't help me attract women (nothing would), but I might feel better about the whole situation.

Self-awareness isn't always so great.
posted by "Tex" Connor and the Wily Roundup Boys at 8:22 PM on December 19, 2007

Tex Connor, stop that.

Whenever anyone fusses that being chatting up on the street is delightful, I shall point them to Forktine's comment. See, even big scary guy types don't want someone telling you a rambling story about how they need five bucks for a quesadilla. I feel so vindicated.

So! I think a distant acquaintance coming to my Christmas dinner may be one of the bitterly-single types mentioned here. I don't have any neurologist/supermodel pals with a yen for socially awkward types to invite for him. What else could I do? (I am already polite and I will refrain from pointing and laughing if he shows up in a fedora, etc.)
posted by thehmsbeagle at 9:28 PM on December 19, 2007

There's nothing you can do.

Your ugly, loathsome friend just needs to accept that he was dealt a raw hand. He probably won't do this, of course, but will actually end up trapped in some hideous parody of a relationship with some equally ugly and loathsome woman who he secretly hates, but it can't be helped.
posted by "Tex" Connor and the Wily Roundup Boys at 9:41 PM on December 19, 2007

If I make it to 60, I totally hope my head shrinks a bit (through skullular osteoporosis or some damn thing) so that I can pull off wearing hats, because I'm totally going to start wearing fedoras and such.

And the geriatric ladies are gonna be all over me.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:02 PM on December 19, 2007

This thread has been educational. (Am I the only one who loves super-long threads, especially when there is some worthwhile conversation still occurring? If there were more of this in Mefi I'd spend more time there.)

Three new insights I have gleaned:

1. There really can be a dark undercurrent to misfitry. My initial reaction was very similar to jessamyn's, and I agreed with WCityMike that things were way too harsh in that thread. I identify with weird people, and this poster is weird people. I didn't see the frat boy in him. I hate when dorks oppress each other, and the only reason I come to metafilter is because it's different here while still intelligent.

His stylized manner of writing, his affectations, his trying-too-hard attitude...certainly he needed guidance and correction, but outright mockery? I just did not see the evil or any potential for evil. Not like that misogynist guy who wanted to dump his 4th wife for a young one who would have his babies. Or that guy who was "so awesome, why are things so hard when I'm so awesome"? That guy. But now I'm starting to see that there is at least the potential for exactly those kinds of loathsome attitudes, even in a misfit like this current incarnation of anonymous. I was inclined to think he is too harmless for all the vitriol, but now I'm starting to understand the danger, even if I still don't think he's quite there yet. I still feel for you anonymous, even if you are a fornicator. But you're on a bad path. On the path to being Mystery, and you don't want to be that guy. I think Mystery was a lot like you once, and now I think he's sad and creepy and more than a little infuriating. He's so far gone, he really doesn't even see women as people at all. He's pretty bitter. Your "failures" might make you bitter, and then you'll learn some silly method so you can "pick up" all the girls you want for sex, but you will loath them. I don't want that to happen.

2. The second thing I learned, just how bad being approached on the street really is. I have been approached on the street, and it's ranged from being really uncomfortable (anxiety-inducing, ruin my day for at least the next 20 minutes uncomfortable) to downright bad every single time. But here's the thing: I never realized that the problem was them, not me. I figured there must be something wrong with me that I only attracted unpleasant experiences on the street. To me, the men were behaving normally. I tried being really nice, that just makes them follow you. I tried being abrupt, that makes them angry and scary (this happened just a couple of weeks ago, a friend and I had to literally run to get away from some spurned guys harassing us). She was way more upset about it than I was, to me, it was just another sad adventure. I don't want to become all hostile (won't help), but at least I know I'm not crazy, and now I know that there really is a difference between being approached on the street (or train/bus) and...nearly anywhere else. I felt a difference, but did not understand it.

3. The third thing: I have way more sympathy for lonely men than I did before I read this thread. See, I think that with age there are far more eligible women than eligible men. So women are running out of time. Also, it's still weirder for women to approach than it is for men. So women are running out of time and forced not to be proactive (even if they are ultimately suppressing themselves). I figured men have more opportunities and yeah, they can approach a hundred women (even if it is hard) and if just one is right (odds are in his favor), then they've found her. Whereas we wait, and then we die. So I did not have much sympathy for lonely young men, as I was convinced that they would one day not be lonely, and probably soon. Whereas there is a strong probability that I will never marry, given my nature and my circumstances.

But here's the thing I have learned in this thread, it blew my mind a bit. Most women have access to strong social networks, other women to talk to, to receive guidance from, to bond with in their singleness, to work towards other goals with and forget about marriage. Young women get loads of feedback, advice and support about "catching a man", even if it is ultimately unhelpful and/or misguided, at least they have people who sympathize. That's just not the way it is for men. Now I've seen stuff like this come up in the other recent super-long threads, and my initial reaction was much like some of the ladies here: why is that yet another problem women have to be aware of while we're asking for some basic awareness from the other side? And I still think it was somewhat irrelevant in those other threads, but not in this one. And seeing anonymous being ripped apart, and thinking about the possible consequences of his behavior, along with the insights shared by people like Ckmtl and grumblebee (in another thread I think), I'm really feeling a lot more empathetic to young men. And I realize I've seen this happen with men that I know. And it's scary because I honestly don't know where they go or what they do, just learn by fire I guess. But now that I know, I can perhaps make a difference by being more empathetic.
posted by Danila at 10:12 PM on December 19, 2007 [12 favorites]

So women are running out of time and forced not to be proactive....I figured men have more opportunities and yeah, they can approach a hundred women...Whereas we wait, and then we die.

Wow..... I thought I had more hope than that......
posted by salvia at 10:39 PM on December 19, 2007

stavrosthewonderchicken:
> If I make it to 60, I totally hope my head shrinks a bit (through skullular osteoporosis or some damn thing) so that I can pull off wearing hats, because I'm totally going to start wearing fedoras and such.

And the geriatric ladies are gonna be all over me.

I wonder if hats look better on older men because of ear and nose proportions? It may not be just the geriatric ladies after you then!
posted by bonobo at 10:44 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Anonymous Fedorahead would be a great band name. I'm just saying.

"We're Anonymous Fedorahead, thanks for coming out."

Hmmm. Not quite doing it for me...

The Fedorable Pinstripes? Leave Your Lovers Better? The ShenaniSexigans?
posted by salvia at 10:46 PM on December 19, 2007

Wow..... I thought I had more hope than that......

Well you don't salvia. Abandon it.
posted by Danila at 10:52 PM on December 19, 2007

Shit, I better go order my cat t-shirts now, before the rush.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 10:54 PM on December 19, 2007

Random Fedoras?
Fedora Face?
Secret Fedoras?
Fedoraplex?

Don't forget Cortex's Fedora Agents!

--------

Cat t-shirts are overrated and take precious $$$ from teh kittehs. Say it louder and prouder with your regular apparel covered in cat hair and reeking like ammonia. Works for me!
posted by bonobo at 11:00 PM on December 19, 2007

The Fedoralist Poppers!
posted by hydrophonic at 11:40 PM on December 19, 2007 [1 favorite]

Bloke needs dreads.
posted by flabdablet at 12:16 AM on December 20, 2007

Every man here who is discounting fedoras wholesale should go spend an hour or two in a real hat store. You can tell you're in a real hat store when the hats are in boxes. There's a hat for every man. I swear this to be true.

The problem is at some point in most men's lives they decide to throw a hat on. Then they feel silly, take the hat off, and never wear a hat again. (For the record, baseball caps are not hats. They're caps) The problem is usually not the hat, it's that most guys put on a hat for the first time mistakenly believing that the hat is the outfit. The hat should never be the focal point of your outfit. It is an accessory.

If you're wearing a fedora, no one should notice the fedora. They should notice your suit. Or if you're wearing an overcoat, they should notice the weather. If you're not wearing a suit, you probably shouldn't be wearing a hat. But trust me on this one. If you ARE wearing a suit, a good hat will make the difference between looking good, and looking sharp.

You should never wear a hat indoors, unless you're in the company of people of questionable character, it's after 10 pm, or you're drunk. Otherwise there's a good chance you'll lose your hat.

As to all other affectations, style choices, accessories, or what have you. I simply rely on what my grandfather told me. People should only notice your clothes after you've walked away. Same goes for beards, moustaches, fixed gear bikes, and samurai swords. Wear the fedora, don't let the fedora wear you.

There are only three exceptions to this rule.

1)Toupees always make you look bad.
2) An eyepatch always makes you look badass.
3)Women will find a way to talk to you if you're wearing the right shoes.
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:29 AM on December 20, 2007 [17 favorites]

In Soviet Russia, fedora wears you!
posted by bonobo at 2:02 AM on December 20, 2007

Coming to a Nintendo DS near you, Elite Fedora Agents!

Oh wait, one of the Elite Beat Agents guys already has a fedora.
posted by needled at 4:54 AM on December 20, 2007

Terry Pratchett wears a black fedora. I think that's what it is. I am not so good with hats. Or cats.
posted by meehawl at 5:05 AM on December 20, 2007

in my experience people never start talking to me on the street unless they want something, and I sure as shit don't want to give whatever it is they want to them. ... the other day it was some woman asking directions

Wow, you consider asking directions an unacceptable imposition? I guess you told her off! Sheesh. Ignorant out-of-towners are always claiming New Yorkers are rude and unfriendly, but I've never seen a New Yorker be anything but helpful to someone asking directions; in fact, I've seen them walk blocks out of their way to help someone (and have done it myself). I guess the mean streets of Seattle are different.
posted by languagehat at 6:30 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

You should never wear a hat indoors, unless you're in the company of people of questionable character, it's after 10 pm, or you're drunk. Otherwise there's a good chance you'll lose your hat.

When I'm in the company of questionable people, after 10 pm, and I'm drunk, I consider myself lucky if my hat is all I lose.
posted by L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg at 8:10 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Ignorant out-of-towners are always claiming New Yorkers are rude and unfriendly

When the disaster tourists started coming downtown and looking for directions to the big smoldering hole, you betcha I told them where to find it, with lots of gestures and audio cues. Also cf. the folks who asked me to take their picture in front of the big sign that said "Crime Scene: Photography Prohibited."
posted by anotherpanacea at 8:22 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

billy fleetwood: 3) Women will find a way to talk to you if you're wearing the right shoes.

Um, this is so true for me. Also, your whole post has to be some of the best fashion advice I've ever heard for men who want to dress well.
posted by mosessis at 8:25 AM on December 20, 2007

Uhhh...a conversation? Have anything to add?
posted by agregoli at 9:24 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

WCityMike, my child, the 547 comments are due to your sinfulness. Accept me into your heart and repent.
- Christ
posted by salvia at 9:40 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Wow..... I thought I had more hope than that......

Well you don't salvia. Abandon it.

*abandoning the hope I have to accord with danila's predictions*
posted by salvia at 9:44 AM on December 20, 2007

I used to, then last year someone told me that was rude. So now I just go and sit around for 10 minutes, walk around with plastered smile for 5, sit for 10, walk for 10, leave. And try to remember to avoid parties.

Stay home if you're so damned special.
posted by xmutex at 10:10 AM on December 20, 2007

Stay home if you're so damned special.

I appreciate your appropriate use of tone. Advice always goes over better when served with an insult. Certainly that's one lesson we can all take from this thread. I'm sure the principle holds even when it's unasked for.
posted by BigSky at 10:32 AM on December 20, 2007

Ignorant out-of-towners are always claiming New Yorkers are rude and unfriendly

well, as you said there are plenty that aren't, but please let's not forget context:

if someone asks me for directions when I'm walking down the street on a normal day and they're directions aren't completely retarded (note, asking for directions just about anywhere is not completely retarded, but asking something stupid like "so how the hell do you get around this dadgum place, anyway?" is. it's a grid, it has numbers. it's the easiest place in the world to get around. also, don't fucking ask me how to get to your friend's house that you don't know the precise address of but he said it's near a ray's pizza. I will fucking cut you.) then I will be nice as pie.

If someone bothers me, for instance, any time before January 2nd when I'm being bombarded on all sides by fucking tourists and cramped trains due to tourists and slow moving crowds when I'm in a hurry due to tourists and NOT TO FUCKING MENTION the holiday shoppers, then I'm probably going to shoulder them out of the way right when they try to step in front of me to ask me directions and tell them to watch where they're fucking walking.

but that's me. that shit puts me in a really bad mood. every. day.
posted by shmegegge at 10:42 AM on December 20, 2007

Are there enough comments here to build a longboat dock yet?
posted by drezdn at 10:53 AM on December 20, 2007

Jay-Z looks cool in a hat. Do you know why? Because he's wearing a freakin' costume.

And when you wear a suit, you aren't? All occasional garb is occasional garb, and therfore costume to some degree. I embrace this. I think it was the 42 Barbies. I'm either Office Drudge Ambrosia, Party Time Ambrosia, Fun in the Sun Ambrosia, whathaveyou. And yes, I have more clothes than I can store. Guys and other naturalists seem to disavow this principle often, but unless your mother is still providing your wardrobe, recognize that your fashion choices speak about you, and there's no unsignifying choice, not even a uniform. So think about a hat, and if you're capable of backing up the promises of confidence made by your hat, wear it. May your reach always exceed your grasp.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:55 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

oh it's not tourists and people shopping, it's being completely overwhelmed by their presence for about a month and a half in particular areas. unfortunately I happen to work by grandcentral and have to change trains at times square to get there so I'm really really in a bad spot for it this time of year. but nyc is the shit. i ain't leaving.
posted by shmegegge at 10:56 AM on December 20, 2007

And when you wear a suit, you aren't?

There is a difference between dressing up and playing dress-up. (That is why so few people can pull off a fedora, especially those under 50.) That you don't understand this explains the cloak. And the mouse.
posted by dersins at 11:03 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

If you are wearing a suit, which I do on a very regular basis, any hat will make you look like you're wearing a costume, instead of dressing appropriately.

You don't know anything about how to wear clothes.

unfortunately I happen to work by grandcentral and have to change trains at times square to get there so I'm really really in a bad spot for it this time of year.

Totally understandable then. Give 'em a shove for me!
posted by languagehat at 11:04 AM on December 20, 2007

I don't know anything about how to wear clothes?

If you don't have any awareness of the basic and beautiful synergy between a suit and a hat, apparently not.

Also, if you're going to go around flinging shit at entire groups of people, you should develop a thicker skin.
posted by languagehat at 11:24 AM on December 20, 2007

The problem with a guy walking up to a girl on the street and saying "you're pretty" is that one of two thoughts going off immediately in the girl's head:

If the approached woman believes herself to be pretty or is pretty, the thought is "Oh crap, here we go again..."
If the approached woman believes herself not to be pretty or is not pretty, the thought is "Oh crap, here we go again..."
posted by iamkimiam at 11:31 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

You don't know anything about how to wear clothes.

Frankly, that is the best insult I have ever read in my life.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. My fedora is fucking awesome. It's filthy, covered in dirt and black coal dust. Any form it might have had is long, long gone - it has been wadded up and stuffed in the pocket of my motorcycle jacket for so long that it is now simply a mass of cloth that sticks to my head.

In fact, I'll lay out the evidence for you.

You see those fish? Those are my fish. I caught them, then I ate them. They saw my hat and were like, "Oh shit! That hat!" And you see that incredibly hot chick in the second photo? Yeah. That's what I thought. Look at my best friend Hamdog in that picture. He's freaking right the fuck out. He's so pissed that he didn't wear his fedora.

I have nothing more to say on the issue. My fedora has greatly improved my life in too many ways to list. Fresh fish. Beautiful women. I rest my case.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:37 AM on December 20, 2007 [20 favorites]

dersins, #1 what's the difference, then? Educate us with your astute command of fashion nuance. I have a feeling it hinges on conformity. and #2, are you really going to lecture me on overgothing it? That is a laugh! I took a mouse around when I was 18 and own a wool cloak. I can make fun of myself over it without your help. Still, I've never gotten near this level of fashion regret.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:38 AM on December 20, 2007

Something makes me think that something I wrote was taken the wrong way... I'm not sure what entire group of people I flung something at.

Here, let me help. This:

any hat will make you look like you're wearing a costume, instead of dressing appropriately.

insults everyone who wears hats. (Hint: telling someone they don't dress appropriately is insulting.) But if you're going to claim you weren't being insulting and didn't feel insulted, then hey, enjoy your happy pills!
posted by languagehat at 11:54 AM on December 20, 2007

BabyBalrog's comment above may be the greatest moment in metafilter history.
posted by shmegegge at 11:59 AM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

I've never gotten near this level of fashion regret.


You clearly STILL can't tell the difference between dressing up and playing dress up.

It's funny, though, that people keep throwing that picture of me from 20 years ago in my face as though it somehow proves something and that I should be embarrassed.

Hint #1: I know how ridiculous I looked in that picture. I even knew it at the time.
Hint #2: If I were embarrassed do you really think it would be the only thing I have posted to the flickr account linked in my profile?
posted by dersins at 12:06 PM on December 20, 2007

Sheesh, languagehat. I think you're taking it a bit too far. He wasn't being directly insulting.
posted by agregoli at 12:10 PM on December 20, 2007

I don't have a dog in this race, but I think dersins looks pretty cool in that picture. It was the fucking 80's yo, everybody was worried that Eddie Murphy was going to get sick of wearing all red leather and we'd all have to get a whole new outfit.
posted by Divine_Wino at 12:11 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

In fact, I'll lay out the evidence for you.

Man, that's some compelling evidence. But we have to put the fedora in context: we've got a guy who looks like a mountain man, doing manly deeds in a manly setting, and he happens to be wearing a fedora. That the fedora is meant not to be fashionable, but functional, changes the way we read the fedora. You could swap out the fedora for, say, a trucker cap, but then you just look like a shitkicker -- not so cool. The fedora here says, "Yo. I am doing outdoorsy shit, but there is more to me than that. I'm trying to make a big deal out of it, but, like, I have levels. Meanwhile, let us kill fish."

The fedora on a young, suited guy in an everyday urban setting says, "Hello. I am a weird fop. Call me Mystery!" A trucker cap would, in this case, actually be an improvement.

Therefore: Fedoras! Not for everybody.

(and so we return to begin again)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:14 PM on December 20, 2007 [4 favorites]

It's funny, though, that people keep throwing that picture of me from 20 years ago in my face

When you point fingers at them for what they wear? How peculiar! Just get off your high horse already. You are not fit to give me or anyone fashion advice. I don't need a picture of you to know it.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:15 PM on December 20, 2007

Baby_balrog, it was actually the near beard (neard) that was doing all the heavy lifting in both cases.

Beards look like safe shrubbery to fish, they feel, hey, no one will try to eat me, I'm close to shrubbery, I can hide there if I have to and then wham, you've netted a fish.

Neards also let the ladies know, "hey I'm not trying to hard," which is like instant attractant to some. They feel safe, thinking hey, I could always hide in that shrubbery if a predator comes by.

Plus, beards can store food for later.
posted by drezdn at 12:16 PM on December 20, 2007 [8 favorites]

I think there's a lot of friction here over how loaded the word "costume" is for different people. If TWF means a neutral (or even positive) "elaborate dress" and languagehat means "ridiculous/inappropriate dress"—or some disparity along those lines—I can totally understand the heat here.

So maybe if at least those two can clarify what they mean by "costume", it'd help.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:16 PM on December 20, 2007

completely overwhelmed by [tourists'] presence for about a month and a half in particular areas. unfortunately I happen to work by grandcentral and have to change trains at times square to get there so I'm really really in a bad spot for it this time of year.

I feel you, shmegegge. I work at Rockefeller Center, right across from Radio City Music Hall (home of the Christmas Spectacular!!!1!) and this time of year... well... words just fail. Leaving the office in the evening, struggling upstream against a massive outpouring of hinterlanders in cheap-ass street-vended Santa hats, all bound for The Tree, The Tree, The Tree...
/sobs quietly
posted by GrammarMoses at 12:28 PM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

actually I think it was this part, cortex "any hat will make you look like you're wearing a costume, instead of dressing appropriately." I don't think it's a leap to get to the costume = not appropriate although it's a little different than that logically speaking.

IF costume THEN not appropriate, so
IF appropriate THEN not costume

I love the contrapositive so fucking much.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 12:30 PM on December 20, 2007 [4 favorites]

Ah, I missed that line.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:34 PM on December 20, 2007

A trucker cap would, in this case, actually be an improvement.

DOES NOT COMPUTE

I love the contrapositive so fucking much.

I love Jessamyn so fucking much.
posted by scody at 12:38 PM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Any form it might have had is long, long gone - it has been wadded up and stuffed in the pocket of my motorcycle jacket for so long that it is now simply a mass of cloth that sticks to my head.

So in other words it's not really a frigging fedora anymore and therefore completely refutes the point you were trying make, doesn't it? DOESN'T IT?!?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:40 PM on December 20, 2007

Oh, and those fish?

Rented.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:41 PM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Neither of us, presumably, dresses like Indiana Jones ...
You say that like it's a bad thing. It's not, right? Right?

please don't make me buy a whole new wardrobe again, I only just replaced all my red leather jumpsuits
posted by dg at 12:43 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Danila: But you're on a bad path. On the path to being Mystery, and you don't want to be that guy.

Well he would like to get laid, and I'm pretty sure Mystery is getting laid... But I'm also pretty sure Mystery, like most of the top seduction guys, has a serious girlfriend now. Meaningless sex is ultimately unfulfilling, and eventually you're gonna meet somebody you want to spend more time with. But in the meantime, as long as he's not misleading anybody, there's nothing wrong with a little action.

I think Mystery was a lot like you once...

If memory serves, Mystery was *worse* than this guy -- virgin til his early twenties, couldn't get a girlfriend, etc., so he got tired of being lonely and decided to try to model the mating process, then put that model into practice by developing various techniques.

He's so far gone, he really doesn't even see women as people at all. He's pretty bitter.

And you know this... how? You know the guy??

You're exactly wrong. Newsflash: most guys don't see beautiful women as people. Sad, but true. Most guys see beautiful women as objects of sexual worship, to be placed on pedestals and given all manner gifts and favors, to be masturbated to in private shame. They will stutter and stammer, unable to even talk to them -- that is, if they can even approach at all. More often, they will simply gawk at her from afar, careful not to get caught looking, as they're simply not worthy or able to engage her grace in conversation. Even worse, for those beautiful women who happen to be in the insecure guy's social circle, he will *pretend* to be their friend... but he's really just waiting for his Big Chance to prove his love, to bed that angel, that beauty that will add meaning to his otherwise empty existance. Nevermind that she's rotten on the inside, addicted to pills, hates her mother, kicks puppies and declaws cats -- she's SOOOO PRETTY!!!

Speaking for myself, the better I get at meeting women, the more I understand them and empathize with them as *people*. I don't date women for fear of being alone anymore, and I don't lead them on anymore. Breaking hearts is not worth getting my rocks off, but it was when I was more insecure. The more confident you are that sex is readily available, the more honest you can be with potential partners, and the happier everybody is in the long run.

Your "failures" might make you bitter, and then you'll learn some silly method so you can "pick up" all the girls you want for sex, but you will loath them. I don't want that to happen.

If he gets his head right, he'll understand that the failures are not a reflection of his personality, but rather a critique of his technique. They will be learning experiences, rather than sources of emotional pain. And the bitterness dissipates as the internal dialog becomes constructive. The girl isn't a psycho bitch; you just tried to kiss her before you built enough rapport with her.

...[I]t's scary because I honestly don't know where [men] go or what they do [to learn about meeting women], just learn by fire I guess.

You've put your finger on it: Guys generally don't talk with each other about how to meet women. Yes, it's sad, but that's how guys are. Maybe it's the testosterone or maybe it's our competitive nature. Or our "selfish genes" that want to spread our DNA uber alles. And there is no Charm School for Men, even though this stuff is more important to most men than any engineering, history, or economics. Most men never learn how to meet women of their chosing. Never. So they end up in a relationship with somebody they don't really love because, well, at least they're getting laid. Eventually, they meet somebody slightly "better" and cheat on their partner. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. This is so common it's practically expected. And it's heartbreaking.

That's exactly why the Mystery Method (et al) exists, to teach men how to get girls. It's not about lying; it's about modifying your own behavior to increase your success with women: Here's how to begin a conversation -- surprise: the words are almost inconsequential compared to your subcommunication. Don't show interest in her until SHE shows interest in you -- and oh by the way here are some signs that she's into you. Don't build rapport with her until you've communicated your interest in her, or you'll end up in the dreaded Friend Zone. Don't make any sexual moves (kissing, etc.) until you've spent the time to build comfort and rapport with her, or you'll make her feel cheap, easy, and uncomfortable. Etc. Etc. This is not lying, this is not hypnosis (yeah, I have a problem with some of the NLP stuff). This is just how to act "normal". Women like guys who act normal.

These things are not creepy in my opinion. This is how seduction ought to work. It's only misleading in that the guy probably wouldn't have done these things naturally -- he would almost certainly screw things up long before bed-time, left to his own devices. He'd gush on and on about how beautiful she is, try to impress her with his money/intellect/travel, openly beg for her approval... all the things guys typically do wrong. And sometimes insecure guys even accidentally get it right -- try enough times and you're bound to fuck up right once in a while. Mystery just wrote it all down so that guys can actually know what they're *supposed* to be doing, and hopefully get it right more consistently.

I don't use MM or DavidD's material anymore, but it's taught me a LOT. I just wish this stuff was around when I was a teenager. It would have saved a lot of hurt feelings, many of them not mine. I did some pretty dick-ish things because I didn't know what I was doing.

I have no further comment on the fedora issue.
posted by LordSludge at 12:50 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Alvy I'll have you know that hamdog and I caught those fish our damn selves in the morning so we'd have something for the womens to eat come supper.

And I wear that hat to the bar some times. when I'm not wearing my shady brady.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:57 PM on December 20, 2007

Most men never learn how to meet women of their chosing. Never. So they end up in a relationship with somebody they don't really love because, well, at least they're getting laid. Eventually, they meet somebody slightly "better" and cheat on their partner. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. This is so common it's practically expected. And it's heartbreaking.

Oh no... now I'm back to not wanting to talk to strange men, ever. I need more infighting about hats to distract me!
posted by thehmsbeagle at 12:58 PM on December 20, 2007

Sombreros? Straight-up bullshit.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:00 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

I love the contrapositive so fucking much.

I love Jessamyn so fucking much.

Me too! I have missed the names of the logical relationships since seventh grade. I try to remember them, even try looking them up, and there she goes pulling them out in a Metafilter thread. (God will someone do an FPP about basic logic please? Hmm, maybe one exists already...off to Google.)
posted by salvia at 1:01 PM on December 20, 2007

This is my own personal preference but I want to weep when I see anyone wearing a cowboy hat.
posted by agregoli at 1:02 PM on December 20, 2007

This is just how to act "normal". Women like guys who act normal.

You've put your finger right on it. I don't think you meant to, though.
posted by MarkAnd at 1:03 PM on December 20, 2007

OK, which of these goes better with a pantsuit?
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:06 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

I would imagine a lot of the problem here is that The World Famous was sort of implying, and I can empathize a bit, that wearing a fedora is dressing up as something you are not. In the Jay-Z example, he's dressing up like an old school gangster, a swingin' cat from yesteryear.

The reason this impression pervades in our culture is because we are so very attached to the timeliness of our clothing. Earth tone plaid polyester stretch pants (in contrast to the ones that are fake denim in which case they're hip and popular in williamsburg) are so 70s that no one could wear them in public without facing ridicule. etc... you don't need the history lesson. so moments where someone adopts a piece of apparel from an earlier fashion period which does not have as strong a hold on us any more will seem so untimely. It's damn near a cardinal and mortal sin to wear something that Big Fashion (I hope I'm the first one to say that. I want to be quoted in Urban Dictionary or something.) hasn't told you is in, even if it's in by way of being retro. So we see a fedora and think "Christ, what's next, a god damn Zoot Suit?"

So fedora's feel like dressing up in our grandparents' clothing. It feels like playing dress up because we are so very much attached to our attire representing the cultural identity of our generation. Depending on your age group, and I'll take my own as my example for the moment, who you are is based on what you're "allowed" to wear. I am allowed to dress in video game t shirts and motorcycle boots because I'm a huge nerd and I also rock. I'm also under 30 so I am allowed to wear my nostalgia on my sleeve without seeming pathetic. My dad is not allowed to wear motorcycle boots. Perhaps he rocked once in the faraway mists of time, but now he's old and smells like wool and whiskey. He wears festive sweaters and dress slacks at all times. He wears loafers when he's feeling casual. We have the identities that we swear are some sort of real and actual physical characteristic. Wearing clothing that is incongrous with that commonly understood characteristic is seen as being completely artificial. It feels like a plea for attention, like an eyepatch or a fake accent.

And it is, but so is most vanity.
posted by shmegegge at 1:09 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

what is with me and my misplaced apostrophes recently? christ almighty just kill me now.
posted by shmegegge at 1:12 PM on December 20, 2007

"When you point fingers at them for what they wear? How peculiar! Just get off your high horse already. You are not fit to give me or anyone fashion advice. I don't need a picture of you to know it."

Yeah, it is kinda peculiar to try to make some sort of stand on that goofy goth pic—we've all dressed like idiots, often for the explicit point of looking like an idiot. That doesn't mean that we don't know how to dress as a non-idiot.

But hey, keep your cape, mouse and feeling that you're freaking out the normals, OK? Just don't be surprised when the normals roll their eyes at you.
posted by klangklangston at 1:16 PM on December 20, 2007

I believe that I will be wearing black t-shirts, motorcycle boots and my leather until they nail me in my coffin.

Be that as it may - I also plan on growing a very long beard (vlb) once I turn 30 and complete my Ph.D. I will probably also develop a beer gut. Insofar as my field is theology, I will be in excellent company.

When I worked in fm radio sales, I shaved every day, wore a suit every day, drove a stupid car that I hated and had short hair. These things hurt my soul.
When I was finally liberated from all that ridiculous nonsense, I realized that I could wear absolutely anything I wanted. I could wear a damned toga if it pleased me.

First, I stopped shaving. Shaving sucks. I shave maybe once a month if I've been drinking brandy or something. Secondly, I realized that ties are nooses. I switched to t-shirts. I stopped cutting my hair. I discovered that I have curly hair. Never would have known that. I bought boots. Boots are awesome. Frye boots will completely change your life. They are like wearing slippers. Also, you can kick down a tree with a good pair of Fryes.
Leather coats. Spill beer on them. Fall out of a canoe with them. Whatever. Doesn't matter. Take that coat off and put it on a girl when she's cold, and you may not even need to know how to play the guitar, son.

I said upthread that I bought that hat for practical reasons, but it has worked well. Now, when I think back on all the crap I used to put myself through just getting dressed in the morning, I realize that I will never go back to that. And when you become comfortable with the way you're dressed, you exude a kind of confidence that informs those around you that, "Hey - this guy. He dresses differently, but he looks great." You have to find your own thing - that which makes you completely comfortable.

In fact, this philosophy works with the friends you choose, as well.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 1:25 PM on December 20, 2007 [7 favorites]

I did some pretty dick-ish things because I didn't know what I was doing.

You and me both, brother. And I think if people were better able to remember the dickish things they did back when they were young and ignorant, they wouldn't some down so hard on goofuses like Anonymous.

I propose a compromise position for both of us: We both know plenty about how to wear clothes, but we disagree about whether a hat with a suit is appropriate or an affectation.

Sure, that works, and we're cool. It's what Gore-tex and Jess said: you sounded like you were saying hats weren't appropriate dress. I certainly don't mind people not wearing or liking hats; I just wish there were more hat-wearers and fewer hat-dissers.

And I wish all the best to Jessamyn and her beloved contrapositive!
posted by languagehat at 1:31 PM on December 20, 2007

shmegegge, you got some of the thoughts I was coming back to voice out nicely. It seems that we're getting pretty overdriven on this rather trivial issue, but oh well. I think a costume is worn to "dress up as" and everything but a costume is used to "dress up".

So, if you identify as a cyberpunk kid or whatever, wearing a black vinyl tank is dressing up your idealized self, not "dressing up like Trinity from The Matrix". I think dressing as one's most inner self is great. If you really are "a character," don't hide it! It's bold, indeed, sometimes impossible or impracticable (tell me about it, I work in Finance), and both a source of pleasure and ridicule. Whatever I wear, it's not to get attention, but to feel awesome. Of course, there are always people who think the world revolves around shock value. They are anti-fabulous. Their idealized selves blend in with everyone else's and they spend just as much to outfit themselves accordingly, which makes zero sense to me.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:31 PM on December 20, 2007

I'm on my second pair of frye boots, and I don't know what price level Baby_Balrog is buying at, but the one thing I'd say about them that is not like a slipper is that the nails in their heel break through the sole on the inside and dig into your foot. Do not wear them without some sort of insole. Other than that, yeah, they're the bee's knees.
posted by shmegegge at 1:31 PM on December 20, 2007

Bitch all you like about dersins, a black Ricky awesomes up any outfit.
posted by Wolof at 1:39 PM on December 20, 2007

omg let the cape thing GO. Self-deprecate for a second and see what happens? By the way, it's freaking cute and I got it for $10.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:39 PM on December 20, 2007

"Self-deprecate for a second and see what happens? By the way, it's freaking cute and I got it for $10."

Next time you try to zing on dershins, remember that you've buried your irony-meter in the red.
posted by klangklangston at 1:49 PM on December 20, 2007

zing on who?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:54 PM on December 20, 2007

Oh, dersins. In my head it always comes out as "widdershins."
posted by klangklangston at 2:04 PM on December 20, 2007

I am curious about boots. Could we steer the conversation that way? Why should I pay $250 for a pair of engineer's boots when I can get a pair of Church's brogues for that price?
posted by anotherpanacea at 2:09 PM on December 20, 2007

Shmeg - yeah - only complaint I have. Actually, funny story regarding the bootnails on Fryes -
The left heel started to come loose a bit, so I figured I'd take it to Tradehome in the next couple of weeks and get it fixed (if your fryes have a problem you can always get them fixed for free).

I was taking my boots off by grabbing the heel (which is what I always do) and the heel came loose, unsheathing those wicked Frye hobnails, which proceed to enter the fleshy part of my palm and tear a gaping wound into my paw.

This would suck, except that I got blood all over my left boot, which now makes it even cooler looking, if that's possible, AND I finally have a sweet scar on the palm of my hand. AND my boots got fixed.

So yeah, just like slippers, except when they destroy your hands like a garbage disposal.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 2:13 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Why should I pay $250 for a pair of engineer's boots when I can get a pair of Church's brogues for that price?


1. The shoes you linked to cost almost three times what a pair of Frye boots cost.

2. The shoes you linked have been examined and found wanting in the "bad motherfucker" category.

3. They would, however, look lovely with some pinstripes and, perhaps, a fedora.

I kid. They're wonderful shoes. They kind of serve a different function than do Frye's, though. Which I suspect you knew...
posted by dersins at 2:16 PM on December 20, 2007

Right. Well, I'm not zinging on either, and I don't see how acknowledging that both he and I dress like dorks on occasion with full knowledge of the fact is ironic, nor that it puts him a better position to deride people for it. That is what I took issue with: the assumption that when someone else is playful with dress it's ridiculous, but when he does it, it's funny. Pompous and ironic. Fashion without humor is just stilted snobbery.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:16 PM on December 20, 2007

Why should I pay $250 for a pair of engineer's boots when I can get a pair of Church's brogues for that price?

That depends. Are you 75?
posted by shmegegge at 2:18 PM on December 20, 2007

anotherpanacea - first of all, those are shoes. And they're like, 320 pounds, which - given the condition of the dollar - is something like a million bucks.

Good Fryes can be had for $170. Fryes are boots. They go a third of the way up to your knee. Water cannot get in.

Furthermore, let me share a story with you.

It was August, and I was up north, as is often the case. I was fishing in a private lake near Mancelona, Michigan. My lake, to be exact. (You see, we can have lakes to ourselves in Michigan, because we are the greatest state in the union.) Recently, I noticed that the largemouth, who usually swim in schools, were nearly absent. This frustrated me, until I discovered a massive snapper floating around the beaver hut. Suddenly the precipitous population drop was explained - the damned turtle was eating my bass.

I decide right then and there I was going to take that turtle's life.

My plan was to rise early, fish the hut and wait for him to show. I brought 18 lb test - I knew if I hooked him it wouldn't hold (he probably weighed fifty pounds) but I could get his attention. I'd get him out of the water and it would be just the three of us - me, Leroy (I named him Leroy) and God above.

I had a Walther P.38 but I left it shoreside because I wanted things to be fair.

Everything went as planned. I tied my canoe to the beaver hut and started fishing, eyes scanning the pristine water, sifting through the morning mist, watching for the tell-tale hump of his shell to surface. I brought the canoe paddle, to give him a whack if need be.

A half hour went by. Nothing. Then an hour. I was racking up blue gill and perch - almost enough to head in, but no Leroy. Finally, I reached down into the dark water and hauled out my leader, ready to head home. I turned on the shakey thatch and there was Leroy, sitting just behind me.

My heart stopped. He had the high ground. He was waiting. I was trapped.

I scrambled to the left, trying to hold onto my fish. Leroy's mouth opened like a chasm into the depths of hell itself. He released an unholy shreak. I panicked and started whipping at him with my fishing pole. I was doomed. He came at me like an angry bull. We danced around the roof of the beaver hut, I was just trying to get to my canoe, whipping at him, he was hissing and roaring at me. Finally I saw my chance.

I leapt.

One foot landed in the boat. The other landed on Leroy.

He flipped his snake like neck around and grabbed ahold of my boot. His razor jaws clamped down on my frye boot like a vise. I shook my foot but couldn't get loose. Finally I clawed my way to a canoe paddle and started whacking him. Smack smack smack! No response. I heaved the hickory paddle over my head like a sledge. Crack! Finally, as though he disdained the flavor of my footwear, he released and turned around, slipping between the logs and back into weedy obscurity.

Now, are you going to try to tell me that some churchy brogue shoe would have sufficed in this situation? Because you better believe my name'd be Stumpy if it weren't for my boots. And you can take that to the bank.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 2:40 PM on December 20, 2007 [19 favorites]

Also, for the love of God, if you have one, always bring a gun to a turtle fight.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 2:42 PM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Can someone just confirm for me is it okay / sexy to wear a fez? Answers quick please TIA.
posted by Jimbob at 2:44 PM on December 20, 2007

Why should I pay $250 for a pair of engineer's boots

You shouldn't. You should spend $250 on these. Best. boots. evar.

Wingtips are nice, but you can't walk through 8" of slushy ice water and have your feet stay bone dry and warm, while still looking good with dress pants.
posted by quin at 2:47 PM on December 20, 2007

Whew. I'm SO RELIEVED you didn't kill that turtle. Turtles are awesome.
posted by agregoli at 2:54 PM on December 20, 2007

Get out of here with your combat boots! What is this, 1993?!
posted by shmegegge at 2:54 PM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

Jimbob, it is SO SEXY to wear a fez. I dig fezzes, big time. You are in the clear.
posted by agregoli at 2:55 PM on December 20, 2007

I'm either Office Drudge Ambrosia, Party Time Ambrosia, Fun in the Sun Ambrosia, whathaveyou.

Is this something I could buy somewhere? I'm a little short on stocking stuffers. City Chic Ambrosia would be perfecto for my Mom, TIA.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:55 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Some day I'm gonna kill that turtle, and I'm gonna eat him, too.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 2:57 PM on December 20, 2007

I doubt it. He sounds like he's got a way better handle on the lake than you do.
posted by agregoli at 3:04 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

TPS, how's your mom feel about profanity? The pullstring on City Chic Ambrosia includes the phrases "Faster, bitches, 20 minutes to last call!" and "I will NOT smoke outdoors in this fucking weather, snow gives you cancer!"
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:07 PM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

I got attacked by a tortoise the other day, but I'm pretty sure boots would not have helped. He did not look like he would have been satisfied with just feet.
posted by tkolar at 3:13 PM on December 20, 2007 [7 favorites]

agregoli - You know it's funny you mention that, because the last time I took some friends up camping, one of them was seriously distraught by my little crusade.

She started shouting at me, "You're just jealous because Leroy's a better fisherman than you, and he's probably way older than you are!" etc. It was kind of surprising, especially given the fact that a common snapper is about the most sinister, ornery, and foul creatures to ever grub around a lake bottom on God's green earth.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 3:13 PM on December 20, 2007

Some day I'm gonna kill that turtle, and I'm gonna eat him, too.

Your link has a recipe for cleaning and cooking snapping turtle. Weird. I always figured you cooked snapping turtle the same way you cook possum:

Snapping Turtle on a Cedar Plank

1 Snapping turtle, cleaned
2 lbs sweet potatoes, peeled and cut into 1/2" cubes
2 medium parsnips, peeled and cut into 1/2" cubes
2 medium carrots, peeled and cut into 1/2"cubes
6 whole unpeeled cloves of garlic
2 T Olive oil
salt and pepper

Preheat oven to 375 degrees F.

Toss sweet potatoes, parsnips, carrots, onions and garlic in large bowl with olive oil and salt & pepper to taste.

Place turtle on a cedar plank and arrange vegetables around it.

Place plank on lower rack of oven.

Bake for 30 - 40 minutes.

Remove the plank from the oven, throw away snapping turtle, and eat the plank.
posted by dersins at 3:14 PM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

tkolar that's hilarious.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 3:15 PM on December 20, 2007

She started shouting at me, "You're just jealous because Leroy's a better fisherman than you, and he's probably way older than you are!" etc. It was kind of surprising, especially given the fact that a common snapper is about the most sinister, ornery, and foul creatures to ever grub around a lake bottom on God's green earth.

Well, she has a point. He likely WAS much older than you, and obviously better suited for the environment, boots or no.

I don't see anything sinister about nature. It just is. A snapper turtle is exactly how he's supposed to be - and to be fair, you WERE trying to kill him. I guess he should have just climbed into your boat and gone with it?

Meh. If the recipes and such are meant to freak me out or something, they're not. I'm well aware people eat turtle as happily as I eat other creatures. It doesn't appeal to me, but to each their own.

And I will continue to say that turtles, even snappers, are fucking awesome.
posted by agregoli at 3:21 PM on December 20, 2007

Now, are you going to try to tell me that some churchy brogue shoe would have sufficed in this situation?

Were I wearing those shoes, I'd be able to charm the shit out that turtle. He'd hand it to me, wrapped in brown paper, with a card saying 'Sorry for the inconvenience.' Later, he'd send me a thank you note on 65 lb. paper.

But this is coming from a guy wearing New Balance Zips. I'm open to boots, but I need some serious heel support and cushioning, and it has to go with tweed. I'm old school like that.
posted by anotherpanacea at 3:26 PM on December 20, 2007

I've got bad news for you, anotherpanacea. Those New Balance Zips you're wearing?

THEY.
DO.
NOT.
GO.
WITH.
TWEED.
posted by dersins at 3:31 PM on December 20, 2007 [2 favorites]

You shouldn't. You should spend $250 on these. Best. boots. evar.

Nooooooo. Now, these are nice, and because the front of them doesn't look like the back of a bondage girl's corset, they can be integrated into a business casual wardrobe with even greater ease. As combat boots go, they're tasteful, for Christ's sake. Plus, they come on/off fast as slippers, if your slippers happen to feature a big leather strap and buckle. They're not the greatest for walking crazy long distances, I'll admit, but if you do walk around in them a lot, it's a comfort to know they buff well -- only a really deep gash in the leather would be noticeable afterward. And kicking things? Oh, yes, can you ever. You can kick things hard. If that's, you know. Important to you.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:32 PM on December 20, 2007

Awww, that tortoise loves you, tkolar. He loves you good.

Or your were wearing green and he thought you were a delicious piece of food. In which case, it could be said that he loves you even more.
posted by quin at 3:32 PM on December 20, 2007

Tankers are great, no argument. But are you actually suggesting that a series of leather straps makes them less bondage-like? Really?

They do look nice, but I like boots that I can walk for days in, and tankers always made my feet sore eventually, that's one of the reasons I always stuck with the Danners. You polish them up, and they could pass for dress shoes. (kinda).
posted by quin at 3:36 PM on December 20, 2007

All of the boots shown here look like you've wrapped your feet in cowhide and a seatbelt. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But good under dress pants, you say? Hmmm.
posted by thehmsbeagle at 3:37 PM on December 20, 2007

agregoli: "Meh. If the recipes and such are meant to freak me out or something, they're not."

Now I'll tell you what. When I was facing down that turtle, it wasn't about recipes or anything else. It was about the two biggest predators on the lake determining control of the beaver hutch, which happens to be the best fishing spot on the lake. He's a damned turtle. He can swim to the bottom or go somewhere else. I'll not tolerate being shouldered out of my favorite fishing venue by a reptile. The muskies probably would've gotten involved if I hadn't dealt with them the summer before. I mean to establish my domain, and that turtle is gonna have to learn to eat weeds or fish somewhere else. There's 13,000 lakes in Michigan, and I don't mean to lose mine to some mealy-mouthed, beady-eyed, muck-gobbling turtle. This is a war, and he may have won the battle, but next time I'm bringing the heavy artillery.

If it makes you sad, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll sedate him, box him up and send him to you. Then the two of you can sit down and discuss turtle's rights over kelp-broasted salmon and leeks.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 3:42 PM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

Damn, now I want a fez.
posted by languagehat at 3:43 PM on December 20, 2007

But if nobody's going to flame out, I'm not sure what we're all still doing here.
posted by languagehat at 3:44 PM on December 20, 2007

Tankers are great, no argument. But are you actually suggesting that a series of leather straps makes them less bondage-like? Really?

Heh. I'm SO not, I'm just saying that the wraparound strap is less conspicuous than the eighty bajillion eyelets you find on most combat boot styles -- the strap is pretty much concealed by your pants, and the part of the boot you can see looks pretty much like a black leather shoe. (Plus, I hate spending half an hour taking off my boots.) But I concur on the foot soreness. I walk a lot these days, and that in addition to a current haircut that I think could...possibly give people the wrong impression about me were I to combine it with a pair of big black boots, is why I don't wear tankers regularly now.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:44 PM on December 20, 2007

dersins, that's sacrilege. They go great with tweed. I can pick up octagenarians on the street with no trouble at all. It helps that I wear this hat.
posted by anotherpanacea at 3:48 PM on December 20, 2007

But if nobody's going to flame out, I'm not sure what we're all still doing here.

I don't know what the rest of you are doing here, but I'm still celebrating my birthday callout.
posted by dersins at 3:51 PM on December 20, 2007

So, you guys know this is all going on the blimp, right?
posted by shothotbot at 3:58 PM on December 20, 2007

"Damn, now I want a fez."

I've wanted a fez for a long time. I looked into getting on in Detroit, and I couldn't find a well-made one—all the dedicated haberdasheries had folded. I suppose I should start looking now that I'm in LA, since there has to be a good Fez here. Then, I'll need a satin smoking jacket, and a giant brown leather chair. I already have a line on Cuban cigars.

Chances I'll wear it out in public? Very slim.
posted by klangklangston at 4:06 PM on December 20, 2007

But good under dress pants, you say? Hmmm.

If you've got tall waterproof winter boots, and you're wearing dress pants (or any sort of pants, actually), you'd better be wearing them over / tucked into your boots to avoid the sickly brown, road-salt-infused slush that's all over sidewalks, crosswalks and gets dragged into building entrances, buses and subways. Cold and soaking wet pants cuffs are a very special kind of Unpleasant. It also leads to walking around all day with this going on behind you (photo about 2/3 down the page). Fashion be damned, this is winter.

I totally regret buying hiking-style ankle-height winter boots. I end up walking around with my hands in my coat pockets, pinching and slightly pulling up my pants legs through them. Like a woman trying to cross a puddle in a long sweeping gown. But my puddle never ends... it never ends.
posted by CKmtl at 4:09 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Here's the thing about hats, and I don't know if this is actually the case, but:

When you see a photo from, say, 60 or 70 years ago, nearly everyone in the photo looks like they care what they're wearing. Contrast that with my typical slobovitch attire, and you can see the appeal.
posted by maxwelton at 4:11 PM on December 20, 2007

I once bought a fez in Fez, but it was stolen right out from under my nose at a bench in the Tangier ferry station. Which is probably worth it for the story.
posted by contraption at 4:38 PM on December 20, 2007

Why were you wearing it under your nose?
posted by CKmtl at 4:41 PM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]

I know, I know. In hindsight, that's probably what made me stand out as an easy mark.
posted by contraption at 5:39 PM on December 20, 2007

My grandfather wore a fez to die for. But he clowned magic tricks at children's parties.
posted by meehawl at 6:31 PM on December 20, 2007

I don't know your name, but your fez is familiar.
posted by jonmc at 7:08 PM on December 20, 2007

re: fez. When I got my Gravely's manual, it came complete with this photo in it. That is a man, in a tractor manual, wearing a fez. My grandfather, bless his Uzbeki heart, also had an awesome fez. It may be my mother's only posssion that my sister and I will fight over when she is gone.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:43 PM on December 20, 2007

OMG HI I HEARD U LIKE MUDKIPS?1
posted by chrismear at 7:54 PM on December 20, 2007

No... I'm never gonna do it without the fez on... Oh no...

So apparently Steely Dan was referring to yard work?
posted by wendell at 7:57 PM on December 20, 2007

Finally I clawed my way to a canoe paddle and started whacking him.

And in Ankh-Morpork, 25,000 dead, countless more injured and homeless in wake of massive earthquake and tsunami devastation.
posted by taz at 11:00 PM on December 20, 2007 [5 favorites]

And I will continue to say that turtles, even snappers, are fucking awesome.

Well duh, you cook them with bacon!!!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:08 PM on December 20, 2007 [1 favorite]

Ah, no, that is not why I assert they are awesome. If that's the best thing you can come up with why turtles are awesome, then you really don't know turtles.
posted by agregoli at 7:16 AM on December 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Tippi Turtle sports a fedora and a 'tude:

Hey, Tippi Turtle
Coming down the street
Tell us what you're gonna do

First, I'm gonna bother everybody I meet
Then I'm gonna go home and get drunk
Hey Tippi Turtle
Hey, hey Tippi Turtle
posted by bonobo at 7:42 AM on December 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

This is my own personal preference but I want to weep when I see anyone wearing a cowboy hat.

A cowboy hat is a piece of professional attire, like a hard hat, a ventilation hood, or a football helmet. Anyone who's not actually exposed to the elements and working on a piece of land at the moment, or otherwise does that for a daily living, shouldn't wear one.

So, if you mean weep for the awesomeness (of a true cowboy hat worn appropriately), then... okay.

If you mean weep with sadness at some tool who wants to look country! and! western!, but conveniently wouldn't know a Brahmin from a quarter-mile of post fence if there was money riding on it,

then, yes, we all weep with you.
posted by pineapple at 2:32 PM on December 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

I like straw cowboy hats for sun coverage on hikes and whatnot. Other wide-brim hats make me feel about 75 years old. But I can also herd cattle on horseback, so I'm sort of qualified anyway. Last time I had a cowboy hat, it wound up with the younger, prettier, lapdancier girl. I think there's some physical law that governs them that way.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 4:57 PM on December 21, 2007

Metafilter: I am all for the occasional big word thrown in to edify my prose, but I realize that if I am using several of them a sentence I come across as a grandiose dickwad.

I'm sorry, just I really like that sentence.
posted by Asymptote at 7:54 PM on December 21, 2007 [1 favorite]

Re: hat issue... I'm voting with TPS.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:08 AM on December 22, 2007

Pineapple, lots of non-cowboys wear cowboy hats, though not a lot of non-Mexican non-cowboys, at least around here.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:09 AM on December 22, 2007

Sure - you don't need to be an actual cowboy to be out on the land exposed to elements.
posted by pineapple at 11:16 AM on December 22, 2007

...or Chuck Norris.
posted by wendell at 12:12 PM on December 22, 2007

Done.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:29 PM on December 22, 2007

If you mean weep with sadness at some tool who wants to look country! and! western!, but conveniently wouldn't know a Brahmin from a quarter-mile of post fence if there was money riding on it,

then, yes, we all weep with you.

I live in Chicago. ;Nuff said.
posted by agregoli at 9:50 AM on December 23, 2007

agregoli / tkchrist:

Agregoli, really, I'm not hounding you. I apologize if that is how it appears. Relax. It's all good.

Thank you for your apology, but I'm ever more annoyed that you're telling me to relax when I'm not excited.

I've been baffled so many times in relationships by this response to a harmless "relax" that I just completely avoid saying it anymore, ever. Is it a guys vs. girls thing? It's not meant as a dismissal, in fact it's meant as a "ok, sorry, so we're cool then?" and it's met with an "OMG we're not cool because you're not LISTENING!!"

Still baffles me. Glad yall worked it out though.
posted by Chris4d at 11:14 AM on December 23, 2007

I've been baffled so many times in relationships by this response to a harmless "relax" that I just completely avoid saying it anymore, ever

I HATE "relax". Completely despise it. Whenever someone tells me to "relax", I always take it as "I consider your display of emotion inappropriate and I'd much rather you not bother me right now". My response to "relax" is to KILLKILLKILL.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:01 PM on December 23, 2007 [9 favorites]

FRANKIE SAYS

KILL ME NOW
posted by wendell at 2:02 PM on December 23, 2007

I'm voting with TPS.

Who is that? I need to marry him! I'm sure my boyfriend will understand.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:03 PM on December 23, 2007 [1 favorite]

My response to "relax" is to KILLKILLKILL.

Whoa, whoa! Just relax!
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:38 PM on December 23, 2007

Whoa, whoa! Just relax!

My point exactly.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:03 PM on December 23, 2007

I can accept someone telling me to relax in a number of real-life situations without going for the throat, and I know people who genuinely mean well when they use it (LIKE TKCHRIST). But yeah, there are some people (NOT TKCHRIST) who use it in just that passive aggressive way TPS has identified. It's even worse when you're not being emotional and someone (NOT TKCHRIST) uses it to give you the "poor emotional little woman" pat on the head while you're in the middle of a civilized disagreement.

So yeah, I'd be careful about using it online with someone I didn't know well.

Disclaimer: I don't actually know tkchrist, but he seems like a swell enough guy.
posted by maudlin at 3:57 PM on December 23, 2007

"I think your display of emotion is inappropriate and I'd much rather you did not bother me right now," sums up most of my interactions with cats. However, I'm beginning to believe they are just telling me to relax.
posted by tkolar at 6:31 PM on December 23, 2007 [5 favorites]

They're waiting for you to relax so they can KILLKILLKILL
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:25 PM on December 23, 2007 [2 favorites]

TPS: I found him on The Sartorialist blog.

Today I saw 2 super stylin' black guys on their way to something, and they had the sweet fedoras and elegant, traditional suits. The younger guy had taken off his jacket and had it slung over his shoulder as he strolled down the street with his uncle or someone- older, wearing a chocolate brown version of what the younger guy was wearing. The jacket over the shoulder, the sexy walk, the hat... mmm mmm. And I thought about how thoroughly wrong the anti-hat people in this thread are.Oakland rocks.
posted by small_ruminant at 7:33 PM on December 23, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's even worse when you're not being emotional and someone (NOT TKCHRIST) uses it to give you the "poor emotional little woman" pat on the head while you're in the middle of a civilized disagreement.

Exactly how it makes me feel. I wasn't actually in full freak-out mode until I felt dismissed by "relax," which to me means that any discussion of feelings and reasoning about why I felt that way is way over the top - not sure why that would be so.

But water under the bridge, anyway.
posted by agregoli at 8:50 AM on December 31, 2007 [1 favorite]