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Outrage? Why, yes.
June 13, 2009 9:42 PM   Subscribe

This post was deleted for the following reason: this is crappy terrible news but is there anything here besides an outragefilter post? Two short news articles on crazy people behaving badly doesn't give people much to discuss other than "wow people suck" -- jessamyn

1. Just as there was more to Those Other Two Threads than just outrage at the tragic events detailed in the few thin articles linked (more than "fuck the Right," even), so too is there more to this--certainly enough to sustain a serious discussion. Granted, a discussion of the Minutemen might necessitate the quick deletion of some Mike Watt jokes. So be it.

2. To read a headline like "Three Minutemen arrested for robbery/slaying of a Mexican-American and his nine-year-old daughter" only to summarize it as "crazy people behaving badly" not only trivializes the issue, but is disgustingly flippant and callous besides.
posted by Sys Rq to Etiquette/Policy at 9:42 PM (187 comments total) 5 users marked this as a favorite

This is not going to wendell.

Did you, uh, exchange some mefimail with jessamyn about this?
posted by liketitanic at 9:48 PM on June 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


So get your own website for this kind of political shit. It is not what Metafilter is for.
posted by LarryC at 10:00 PM on June 13, 2009


WELCOME TO THE NERD TERRORDOME MOTHER FUCKERS.
posted by The Straightener at 10:01 PM on June 13, 2009 [45 favorites]


Wait. I messed that all up.
posted by The Straightener at 10:02 PM on June 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


Definitely agree with Sys Rq. I expected someone would call out this deletion.

The groups and individuals we can tend to call "right wing" are all self-destructing in various ways. The crazy militant groups seem to be flipping out and killing people. Not most of them, obviously, but enough to be a trend. I was hoping we could discuss this after people finished posting dots and stuff. It's not as if the thread was going badly.
posted by ryanrs at 10:03 PM on June 13, 2009 [4 favorites]


Damn, that MAD response was more thoughtful and citizen like than the anti-choice spokespeople on Tiller's death.

Petty crime (theft, scams, etc.) is how organized terrorism is funded, so that's worth paying attention to.

the murders though, that takes is to a whole new level, especially the premeditation.

I think a good fpp could be made out of this, but that one wasn't it, really.
posted by lysdexic at 10:03 PM on June 13, 2009


I've said it before, and I'll say it again: jessamyn is good people, and does not deserve this kind of hateful crap.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:03 PM on June 13, 2009 [43 favorites]


There'd be a lot more to this if, say, the perpetrators had shot a Mexican-American in his car because they thought he had come over the border illegally. Breaking in to someone's home to rob them, even if the people doing it are batshit right-wing sickos, is really just another armed burglary. We don't need to cover every single hate crime on the blue.
posted by 0xFCAF at 10:06 PM on June 13, 2009


An equally viable theory is that Jessamyn downloaded the Green Dam Youth Escort filter last night, and it's started acting on its own. And so, Skynet begins!
posted by klue at 10:12 PM on June 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


Seems about identical to the American news story about the Holocaust Museum thing the other day.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:22 PM on June 13, 2009


Seems about identical to the American news story about the Holocaust Museum thing the other day.

Yeah, that was good metafilter right there. Let's do it again!

Seriously. This is a ridiculous, shit-stirring metatalk post. And the deleted metafilter post deserved it. Please stop making life difficult for the mods.
posted by ericost at 10:23 PM on June 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


(the "american" there was nearly redundant, but hey, people shooting people is more common than cornflakes over there isn't it?)
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:25 PM on June 13, 2009


--disgustingly flippant and callous besides.--

Get over your righteousness mate, it's a deletion reason and not a news editorial. It's a robbery murder by whack jobs. They happen many places every day. And don't be trying to defend the post by building up some wall of rightwing intrigue neither. "Trend"? Only in the Iran statistical school of voting trends.
posted by peacay at 10:26 PM on June 13, 2009 [3 favorites]


(the "american" there was nearly redundant, but hey, people shooting people is more common than cornflakes over there isn't it?)

Piss off asshole.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 10:29 PM on June 13, 2009 [19 favorites]


I feel like the mods of this site, and the users are on different pages. The mods believe Metafilter is for posting interesting links, and the users think it's a place to scream at each other for days on end. Honestly I have no idea how the mods have put up with this disparity for so long.
posted by nola at 10:29 PM on June 13, 2009 [22 favorites]


Jessamyn's rebuke of someone else earlier today took me by surprise. Someone in MetaTalk asked to have a question posted to AskMe, concerning her child's injury, and it seemed completely harmless and understandable, so I didn't understand the highly peeved tone Jessamyn took. Perhaps a Bizarro Jessamyn has taken over?
posted by jayder at 10:32 PM on June 13, 2009


Everyone still needs a hug.
posted by Pants! at 10:35 PM on June 13, 2009


*hugs SeizeTheDay*
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:37 PM on June 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


Jessamyn's rebuke of someone else earlier today took me by surprise. Someone in MetaTalk asked to have a question posted to AskMe, concerning her child's injury, and it seemed completely harmless and understandable, so I didn't understand the highly peeved tone Jessamyn took. Perhaps a Bizarro Jessamyn has taken over?

So, you guys know she can hear us, right? Like, she's standing right over there?
posted by liketitanic at 10:40 PM on June 13, 2009 [10 favorites]


I didn't understand the highly peeved tone Jessamyn took.

Stir shit much?

It sounded to me more like she sympathized with the situation, but had to explain why she was closing the thread so that others would not see it and think it was generally ok to ask other people to post your questions on askme.
posted by ericost at 10:40 PM on June 13, 2009 [3 favorites]


0xFCAF writes "We don't need to cover every single hate crime on the blue."

Ya, it's not like these crimes happened in New York City or something.

OK, not all hate crimes but plenty of stories about crimes, most of them fairly meaningless to a worldwide audience. And the front page has featured such mundane NYC stories as a sandwich shop closing, a snow storm, a change in the price of phone calls,and were the mayor's son is going to school. I don't think that's good but there is considerable precedent for this kind of thing being acceptable.

The post in question was sure to be a flame fest though so Jessamyn was right in deleting it.

jayder writes "Jessamyn's rebuke of someone else earlier today took me by surprise."

That was a obvious rulebreaking meta, the poster is probably lucky not to be experiencing a time out.
posted by Mitheral at 10:43 PM on June 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


So get your own website for this kind of political shit. It is not what Metafilter is for.

What LarryC? A mod can't get it wrong? What's political? Metafilter politics? What is Metafilter for? Flash games? Youtube links?
posted by mattoxic at 10:45 PM on June 13, 2009 [3 favorites]


oy jesus.

It was, in fact, a crap post. Arguments that start with "But this other post wasn't deleted and it was the same!" never fly because this isn't how this place works. There have been umpteen zillion meTas about "This other post sucked even more and it wasn't deleted!" Yeah. Deal. That other post might've sucked but it didn't get flagged to hell and back. Or it was a shitty post that grew some great conversation or information. Or mods were way busy with other stuff and it skated by. Whatever. This post likely got flagged a lot (can't remember if I did or not, and too lazy to look), and there was no conversation except "Shit, this sucks" and "."

Christ. I hope you've gone to bed already, jessamyn.
posted by rtha at 10:50 PM on June 13, 2009 [8 favorites]


So, you guys know she can hear us, right? Like, she's standing right over there?

Stir shit much?


Sorry, I probably shouldn't have said that, it was tacky.
posted by jayder at 10:50 PM on June 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


highly peeved tone Jessamyn took

Sheesh, I thought her response was pretty much exactly fair - the poster said they knew it was the wrong way to do things, and they were right, and Jessamyn stated it and why.

It's not like she said, "asshole", at the end, either.

I mean, I feel for the question asker there, who wouldn't? But the fact that the situation behind the question was sympathetic doesn't change that the method of asking it was a bunch of different kinds of wrong.

As for this current deletion reason controversy, again: sheesh. A not great post about ugly stuff that can go nowhere but down? I think we're all better off without it.
posted by dirtdirt at 10:52 PM on June 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


Piss off asshole.

Indeed. But you see where stories like this go? From an American perspective, these are stories about right-wing nuttiness. From an international perspective, these are stories about American nuttiness. Both perspectives are stupid for the same reason.
posted by Ritchie at 10:53 PM on June 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


> KokuRyu said it before, and I'll say it again: jessamyn is good people, and does not deserve this kind of hateful crap.

This has been a low week for MetaFilter, and I have spent much of it marveling at the quiet dignity and efficiency with which Matt, cortex and especially jessamyn have cleaned up all sorts of shit and made all the right decisions despite not quite being able to hide all of their frustration and exasperation. We should be giving them baked goods, not more crap to deal with. The deleted post in this case is a prime example of something that is not good for Metafilter, and I for one would have flagged it had I seen it. This MeTa post is execrable. In reply to point one: MeFi posts should stand on their own and should not be "hey let's discuss X". In reply to oint two: you should be ashamed of yourself.

Thankyou jessamyn and the other admins for deleting that post and all your other sterling work this week. I hope next week is easier for you!
posted by nowonmai at 10:57 PM on June 13, 2009 [12 favorites]


What is it with all these right-wing assholes who don't have real jobs?
posted by bardic at 11:00 PM on June 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


It occurs to me also that a thin post about shootings, from someone who has been recently drawing heat for tone-deafness in another post about shootings, is even less likely to go well. Was this post an attempt by Markkraft at taking control of his narrative, or something? Fuck that.

I've never interacted with said poster, and I don't think I made any comments in that holocaust museum or metatalk thread, but things sure got fighty in there, hey?
posted by dirtdirt at 11:08 PM on June 13, 2009


This has been a low week for MetaFilter...

Oh please!
posted by mattoxic at 11:08 PM on June 13, 2009


You people need to quit urinating in your cornflakes.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:11 PM on June 13, 2009 [2 favorites]


The groups and individuals we can tend to call "right wing" are all self-destructing in various ways. The crazy militant groups seem to be flipping out and killing people. Not most of them, obviously, but enough to be a trend.

This reads like a helluva hook. Do the research. Write the story. Post it (or get it posted) somewhere. If it cuts through all the noise out there, it will get noticed by some MeFite and posted as an FPP. Controversy will ensue. It will spill over into MetaTalk. And so on ...
posted by philip-random at 11:15 PM on June 13, 2009


What is it with all these right-wing assholes who don't have real jobs?

They used to be bankers.
posted by philip-random at 11:16 PM on June 13, 2009


What is it with all these right-wing assholes who don't have real jobs?

The ones on Metafilter?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:23 PM on June 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


I thought it was interesting that the ringleader of this attack was a woman. It's not something you see every day. Rather then being a simple case of rightwing craziness, this was almost like a story about someone who started out as a rightwing crazy then gradually got seduced into criminality and extortion. The fact that it was a woman was highly unusual as well.

There is probably a really interesting story there, but it probably wasn't going to get hashed out in metafilter comments today.
posted by delmoi at 11:23 PM on June 13, 2009 [1 favorite]


This is not how people with normal jobs spend their Saturday nights, I can tell you that.

Yeah, that was good metafilter right there. Let's do it again!

That's pretty much it on the head right there. Add in the fact that this latest post was made by one of the people behaving pretty goddam badly in the Holocaust thread and related metatalk and the whole thing starts to stink.

There may be a good, careful, quality post to be made about the whole fucked up robbery-and-killing thing, and yes people are understandably in a reactionary mood about this shit coming on the heels of the von Brunn thing, but the post in question comes off in context more as perfunctory Okay Round Two stuff than anything.

Jessamyn's rebuke of someone else earlier today took me by surprise. Someone in MetaTalk asked to have a question posted to AskMe, concerning her child's injury, and it seemed completely harmless and understandable, so I didn't understand the highly peeved tone Jessamyn took. Perhaps a Bizarro Jessamyn has taken over?

Someone else earlier today wrote to us to ask about skipping the askme deadline, got a polite reply that that wasn't possible and a couple of helpful suggestions about how to work around it without stomping all over the guidelines. They then took a pass on those and did stomp all over the guidelines. We have a lot of sympathy for people in stressful/scary circumstances, and baby-with-a-serious-injury is obviously a good case of that, but that metatalk was functionally a "screw your guidelines and advice, I'm doing it anyway" situation and Jessamyn was frankly relatively polite considering.
posted by cortex (staff) at 11:25 PM on June 13, 2009 [13 favorites]


Before the usual suspects come along with their blanket condemnations of newsfilter, I'd like to say that the Iranian election thread has been really solid and filled with good sources of information.

I say this with great respect to LarryC: Suck it.
posted by bardic at 11:25 PM on June 13, 2009


From an American perspective, these are stories about right-wing nuttiness. From an international perspective, these are stories about American nuttiness. Both perspectives are stupid for the same reason.

Or neither of the above. It's just a statistical inevitability that if you have almost unlimited access to guns, and therefore tens of thousands of gunshot crimes every year, then you're going to have a percentage of them that are related to hate crimes.

It's more like confirmation bias than anything else.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:41 PM on June 13, 2009


WELCOME TO THE NERD TERRORDOME MOTHER FUCKERS.

Two dorks enter, one dork leaves.

People need to lay the fuck off the mods for about 2 weeks, at least. Swabbing out the everflowing cesspool that was that Holocaust Museum thread has got to have been nasty work. For myself, I'm shocked that there weren't a whole bunch of timeouts after that fiasco. Hair-trigger FPP deletions until things calm down is just good moderating. Cutting off more aggro bullshit before it gets out of control is a more-than-reasonable response to a community that has just failed, spectacularly, to police itself.
posted by felix betachat at 11:56 PM on June 13, 2009 [37 favorites]


Someone else earlier today wrote to us to ask about skipping the askme deadline, got a polite reply that that wasn't possible and a couple of helpful suggestions about how to work around it without stomping all over the guidelines.

That's a shame. I thought I was being compassionate to someone who was panicked. It sounds like I was rooked.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:08 AM on June 14, 2009


This might be a random incident of crazy people. Or it could be a data point in a trend, and when we look back in twenty years from a new country that looks like a little bit like The Handmaid's Tale we'll be scratching our heads and wondering, "Why didn't we pick up on this sooner?"

Be interesting to find out.
posted by adipocere at 12:11 AM on June 14, 2009


I don't think it's quite as clearcut as just one or the other, regardless. We're leaving the question up, and I have no doubt that the dad is someone genuinely stressed, and everyone is generally deserving of some compassion.

It's more a problem of not dealing very well with that as far as how it intersects with the site. Crappy, inappropriate handling of an understandably worrying situation, not something we want to go endorsing in some sort of "hey, if you're having a really bad time, do whatever you like on the site!" precedent.
posted by cortex (staff) at 12:15 AM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


I saw an idea proposed in that Holocaust museum Metatalk thread, something along the lines of "You know what would be great? A Paypal-style button at the bottom of each Metafilter thread, with which you can contribute to buy the mods a treat. Some chocolate, or a fruit basket, maybe some flowers or such."

I wish this was implemented, because ye gods do you guys deserve some material thanks for the crap you've put up with this week.
posted by pseudonymph at 12:20 AM on June 14, 2009 [5 favorites]


Metafilter: not how people with normal jobs spend their Saturday nights.
posted by Mitheral at 12:22 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


This is the nerd Terrordome? I was looking for the nerd Pleasuredome.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:35 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


A Paypal-style button at the bottom of each Metafilter thread, with which you can contribute to buy the mods a treat.

Tip the mods! (and NOT like cows)

You could use one or more of these tip jars.

A site-equivalent of a "Swear Jar" when a commenter acts like an asshat, maybe... yes, I know I'd be a major contributor...

Just don't try the veal, it's cruel.
posted by wendell at 1:16 AM on June 14, 2009


I'm constantly amazed by how people want to declare this or that issue is so important and then can't be bothered to spend at least 15 minutes looking for links. Don't be lazy, please.

Dave Neiwert is journalist who focuses on the right wing groups and their antics almost exclusively and his blog Orcinus is worth following about this stuff. The Southern Poverty Law Center is also an excellent resource.

As to the particular post being complained about here, look if your post is going to mention a certain group, then provide links about that group and its background, especially in the context of making a post that's going global. Not everyone immediately knows what these current day Minutemen do vs the original Minutemen, the Mexican-American border problems or how terrorism and crime is funded.

Frankly, I'd like to see more of these crappy newsfilter type posts deleted, as all they tend to do is get people hyped up and angry without providing much information and then screaming the post is deleted for being so thin. There should be a higher bar with these types of posts since it's so easy for them to go wrong. So no, Sys Req, just 'cause a person reallyrealyreally wants to talk about a particular issue that doesn't mean a shitty post should stand.

To read a headline like "Three Minutemen arrested for robbery/slaying of a Mexican-American and his nine-year-old daughter" only to summarize it as "crazy people behaving badly" not only trivializes the issue, but is disgustingly flippant and callous besides.

If you really want trivializing, check out the title of the post: So much for being "Patriotic Americans patrolling our borders". The axe grindy snark doesn't exactly speak to a higher ground.

And calling Jessamyn "callous" is pretty wrong and patently untrue. No one has to like every decisions she, or any of the mods make, and by all means question those decisions if you think it's important, but could you please lay off the name calling and accusations of character? None of them deserve that, especially after the past week.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:22 AM on June 14, 2009 [17 favorites]


I wish this was implemented, because ye gods do you guys deserve some material thanks for the crap you've put up with this week.

I think treating them with some basic human respect, especially when you disagree with them, would be a helluva lot better than any material goods.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:26 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


What is it with all these right-wing assholes who don't have real jobs?

The ones on Metafilter?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:23 AM on June 14 [+] [!]


posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 10:20 AM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 10:58 AM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 11:02 AM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 11:21 AM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 11:27 AM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 11:42 AM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 11:50 AM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 12:03 PM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 12:22 PM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 12:34 PM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 1:40 PM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 1:57 PM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 2:00 PM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 2:23 PM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 2:29 PM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 3:17 PM on June 12, 2009
posted to MetaFilter by Blazecock Pileon at 4:42 PM on June 12, 2009

posted by Krrrlson at 1:37 AM on June 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


I think your keyboard is stuck, Krrrlson. You should get that checked out.

It seems to be stuck on the “troll” key.
posted by koeselitz at 2:00 AM on June 14, 2009 [21 favorites]


I've been pretty cranky here lately, and it seems like it's been an abnormally cranky period on MeFi lately. Who knows why? I didn't mind the post in question - I live in a border state and follow the news pretty closely and hadn't heard about this story before reading here. But it was a lazy post. I might not have deleted it, but when considering Jessamyn's decision, I can't really argue with it much - it would have been a very quickly devolved discussion.

I liked the comments by ryanrs:

The groups and individuals we can tend to call "right wing" are all self-destructing in various ways. The crazy militant groups seem to be flipping out and killing people.

It does feel like a trend, and I wish someone with more time on their hands than I have would dig around and turn this idea into a post actually worthy of being posted.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 2:05 AM on June 14, 2009


Christ. On. A. Cracker.
Krrlson, Blazecock Pileon- cut it the fuck out. Email, MeMail, IRC, IM, postcards, smoke signals, an elementary school playground. Any of those things would be a more appropriate venue for your childish pissing match than MetaFilter.
posted by potch at 2:06 AM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


It does feel like a trend, and I wish someone with more time on their hands than I have would dig around and turn this idea into a post actually worthy of being posted.

I, for one, wish someone would do some actual research into instead of taking some news stories, adding their personal bias and turning them into a blog post/scare story on the new trend of crazy right-wing militant groups flipping out all over the place. Otherwise, there's no way it will end in something other than a flamefest. But that would be too much to ask, I guess. In this day and age (like in any other day and age, come to think of it), it's much less time-consuming and more profitable to jump to conclusions than do any critical research.
posted by daniel_charms at 2:39 AM on June 14, 2009


Krrlson, Blazecock Pileon- cut it the fuck out.

Leave me out of your comment. Thanks.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:39 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


OK, Blazeo.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:51 AM on June 14, 2009


We should send Jessamyn some flowers for Moderators Day. I don't know when that is, but we should do it anyway.
posted by Justinian at 2:54 AM on June 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


flowers? pishposh! pie would be a better option.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:57 AM on June 14, 2009


Ubu: but hey, people shooting people is more common than cornflakes over there isn't it?

You make it sound as if our country was founded primarily by a bunch of unwanted prisoners...
posted by item at 3:08 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


meh, large numbers of early migrants were free settlers, and currently around 45% of australians have at least one parent born overseas, so, trollishness aside, australia has not very much at all to do with the old penal colony.

but nothing about that changes the fact that the US has, what, hundreds of gunshot murders per week? and with so many, none would be newsworthy unless they had some kind of angle, like a link to racism. apparently, it makes me some kind of asshole for calling a spade a spade, but whatever; i'm just thankful not to live somewhere where every second cunt owns a gun.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:26 AM on June 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


...and: pseudonymph: I saw an idea proposed in that Holocaust museum Metatalk thread, something along the lines of "You know what would be great? A Paypal-style button at the bottom of each Metafilter thread, with which you can contribute to buy the mods a treat. Some chocolate, or a fruit basket, maybe some flowers or such."

I wish this was implemented, because ye gods do you guys deserve some material thanks for the crap you've put up with this week.


I'll be happy to contribute to a fund that goes towards the purchase of a fine, professional grade staple gun so that your lips'll never again be unattached from the mods buttocks.
posted by item at 3:28 AM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


i'm just thankful not to live somewhere where every second cunt owns a gun.

Me too.

Item's profile
Location: Texas


fuck
fuck
fuck
fuck
fuck
fuck
fuck
fuck
posted by item at 3:50 AM on June 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


You make it sound as if our country was founded primarily by a bunch of unwanted prisoners...

And yours a by a bunch of unwanted religious nutjobs.
posted by mattoxic at 3:58 AM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


one man's religious nutjob is another man's prisoner, so it's all much of a muchness, in the end.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:00 AM on June 14, 2009


UbuRoivas: meh, large numbers of early migrants were free settlers, and currently around 45% of australians have at least one parent born overseas, so, trollishness aside, australia has not very much at all to do with the old penal colony. but nothing about that changes the fact that the US has, what, hundreds of gunshot murders per week? and with so many, none would be newsworthy unless they had some kind of angle, like a link to racism. apparently, it makes me some kind of asshole for calling a spade a spade, but whatever; i'm just thankful not to live somewhere where every second cunt owns a gun.

Ah—I get it. Not really a penal colony. Good to know. So the old Australia didn't belong to criminals—it only belonged to stiff-chinned imperialist Brits who despised the very skin of the people who lived on the land before they got there, and whose Thatcherite descendants Australians didn't seem to want to get around to kicking out of office until a little over a year and a half ago?

Gee, I hope it doesn't make me some kind of asshole for calling a spade a spade.
posted by koeselitz at 4:09 AM on June 14, 2009


hm, lost me a bit there, koeseo.

the one major thing that i think we inherited from colonial times is a very healthy irish catholic disdain for power & authority. and sometimes, it's ironically useful to have one of those wankers in power, if only to increase the solidarity & fun of those opposed to dickheaded policies.

this was probably almost exactly like the situation in the US under Bush - after every drought comes an efflorescence, right?
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:21 AM on June 14, 2009


every second cunt
They had to work on this original idea quite a bit before the game show finally hot the airwaves.
posted by Abiezer at 4:25 AM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Duff joke ruined by typo. Arse
posted by Abiezer at 4:26 AM on June 14, 2009


every second arse? yeah, that has potential - run with it, i say!
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:37 AM on June 14, 2009


Americans and Australians shouldn't fight. We should come together, and then make fun of the Canadians and New Zealanders.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 4:43 AM on June 14, 2009 [9 favorites]


Oh, I have no interest in fighting anybody, unless it's for the purposes of securing mountainloads of streaky bacon, maple syrup & sexy sheep.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:55 AM on June 14, 2009


I support the deletion of that post for all the mentioned reasons, plus the fact that if you have to use bold on the front page to try to emphasize your point you're doing it wrong.
posted by Rhomboid at 5:26 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


apparently, it makes me some kind of asshole for calling a spade a spade, but whatever; i'm just thankful not to live somewhere where every second cunt owns a gun.

Oh dude, I love you but what are you on about? No really, what are you on about?

the one major thing that i think we inherited from colonial times is a very healthy irish catholic disdain for power & authority.

Couldn't disagree more. This is a myth we Australians tell ourselves. We make a folk-hero out of Ned Kelly, and go on and on about battlers and diggers and mateship and all that fine-sounding crap, but there's nothing to it. We're just as ready to lick the boot and sniff the crotch of anyone who seems vaguely like some kind of authority figure - which usually means some ignorant loudmouth, as opposed to genuine leadership - as any other nation, and more ready than some.

Do you know what genuine disdain for power and authority looks like? It's not when those with power tell you to smarten up and get in line and you tell them to fuck off and peddle that shit elsewhere. Real disdain is when those with power speak loving words to you, and tell you how wonderful and unique you are, and then you tell them to fuck off and peddle that shit elsewhere.

So what do Australians do? Well, the elites talk and talk at us about how Australians are special and wonderful because we have mateship, and battlers and diggers and blah blah blah, and every single time we roll over as if hypnotized and and then they cut our balls off.
posted by Ritchie at 5:36 AM on June 14, 2009 [8 favorites]


Oh dude, I love you

fuck off and peddle that shit elsewhere.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:42 AM on June 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


UbuRoivas, I would like to invite you to America!
posted by P.o.B. at 5:43 AM on June 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


(wow, was that a deliberate setup? it was almost like the Don bowling a googly to Ben Cousins)
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:45 AM on June 14, 2009


P.o.B - that is 100% being made into my doormat, as soon as I can work out how. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:47 AM on June 14, 2009


Nobody pay attention to UbuRoivas. You can tell by the capital letters that someone else is using his account.
posted by gman at 6:02 AM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


No, it's Turn Over a New Leaf Time. When people complained that all-lowercase was hard to read I respected their idiocy, and vowed to get my shift keys out of hock. Fucking gypsies, they charged me a pound of flesh, I tell you.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:13 AM on June 14, 2009


But how ever will you survive on this site with only 100 word per minute powers?
posted by gman at 6:15 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


I WILL FIND A WAY TO COMPENSATE.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:16 AM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Ritchie's love will help you get through these tough times.
posted by gman at 6:21 AM on June 14, 2009


THAT COMFORTS ME, BUT I'M AFRAID THAT HE DOESN'T QUITE GET WHAT I'M ON ABOUT.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:31 AM on June 14, 2009


So it's
US: gun-toting maniacs.
Aus: erstwhile prisoners.
But what about the Dutch? Tell me about us!
posted by jouke at 6:43 AM on June 14, 2009


There are only two things UbuRoivas hates; those who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch.
posted by gman at 6:45 AM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


So what do Australians do? Well, the elites talk and talk at us about how Australians are special and wonderful because we have mateship, and battlers and diggers and blah blah blah, and every single time we roll over as if hypnotized and and then they cut our balls off.

Yeah, politicians do that kind of talk, but are you familiar with the 8-8-8 monument opposite the Trades Hall, down the city end of Lygon St in Melbourne?

That's a monument to the unionists who fought (and in some cases, died) for the universal default working conditions of eight hours of work per day, eight hours of recreation, and eight hours of sleep.

You could add to that the fact that we get a minimum of four weeks per year of paid recreational leave, unlike other places I might mention. And that's paid, with 17.5% extra, just for the fun of it. And if you don't take your leave, employers get right up your arse & force you to do it, coz otherwise it fucks up their taxation.

Now, what brought Howard down? He talked the mateship talk, and walked with diggers every single photo-op he could, but he tried to fuck with working conditions & holidays, and the people & unions wouldn't have a bar of it; end of story.

On preview: Fucking Dutch! Always screwing up the world with their canals & coffee shops!
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:49 AM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Sorry to arrive late to my own callout.

It's a little difficult to discuss some of this stuff without dragging up a bunch of backroom inside baseball that we usually keep to ourselves in the interests of not being snitchy and trying to allow everyone to create the persona they want for themselves here.

That said, the post that's the subject of this question was made late at night by a member who had been banned a ways back for pretty much being unable to dial it back with this sort of post in the past. We try hard to have a Brand New Day policy generally speaking but there is a "trust but verify" aspect to that as well. I'm aware that it's not markkraft's fault that there were a lot of people saying some shitty things in that thread already, but at the same time the phrasing, choice of links and tags if I recall correctly were all part of it. It wasn't great either, timingwise. I was the only mod around (I almost always check those things with mathowie or cortex if I can find them) and making a decision whether to leave it up and go to bed, leave it up delete a lot of comments and go to bed, or delete it and go to bed. It's also not markkraft's fault that I lost some sleep last week dealing with the Holocaust shooting stuff here on the site, though he is also not entirely blameless.

And no one needs to be all "hey the mods have it tough, lighten up!" about this, this is just what comes with the job, a job that is generally speaking a terrific dream job so it's okay if it's sometimes messy or bites into a weekend. I deleted that thread thinking there was a decent chance it would wind up in MeTa, and I stayed up for a while to see if it did.

The other situation cortex explained well I think. There were some back and forth emails with a distressed MeFite who was clearly having a difficult time with a stressful issue for which I am sorry. I had given him a list of suggestions to try and he posted to MeTa instead. fff, it was nice of you to post his question to AskMe; I don't think you were rooked at all. However -- and this may be callous of me, so slag away -- I wasn't seeing the emergency angle except that this parent was clearly distressed. I couldn't post it myself because I'd already used my question this week (which was what he was aking). So I closed the MeTa thread once it was clear the situation was sorted, made a note that this isn't how people should go about things -- because one of the realities of this site is if we let things happen once then we have to play the "you let this happen once why didn't you let it happen THIS TIME" game which frankly, sucks. We left the AskMe question open intentionally, not because we forgot to cross it off of our list of "how to be jerks to the users" to do list. There's only a certain amount of technological rule bending we can even do ourselves and the general, though again probably heartless sounding, assertion we make is that there's really no such thing as an emergency AskMe question -- people need to make AskMe part of their larger worlds, not a replacement for it. This has nothing to do with bystander's question, certainly, but if AskMe is a place you use heavily but you don't know another MeFite well enough to ask them a favor, that's sort of a problem.

And now it's Sunday morning and I'm probably the first one up and I'm on my way to work (not this work) and I'll check in later if people need more in the way of explanation and/or have more in the way of criticism. As the site gets larger, one-or-two-newsy-link posts to a really charged and recently very fighty topic on the site are not a good way to go about talking about difficult issues. This site went nine days without anyone being banned and then we had a few solid days of self-link jerkoffs and incredible bad behavior by a handful of regular MeFites that's just barely wound down. This was not the time for that post, and I'm sorry.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:14 AM on June 14, 2009 [14 favorites]


Why is this post about Jessamyn? I disagree with the deletion, but it was a close call. The subject matter is interesting but it is a bit thin. So anyway you can disagree with the deletion without attacking the admins. That is poor form. It's not like the deletion or the way in which it was deleted was outrageous. That might be different. Anyway, why not just make a good post on the subject with some history on the group, the alleged murderer, etc.?
posted by caddis at 7:21 AM on June 14, 2009


the "american" there was nearly redundant, but hey, people shooting people is more common than cornflakes over there isn't it?

Hey, don't be so down on yourself; sure, the yanks take the title for frequency, but Martin Bryant's right up there for quantity.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 7:43 AM on June 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


We should send Jessamyn some flowers for Moderators Day. I don't know when that is, but we should do it anyway.

We just missed it, dammit! It was yesterday. Happy Belated Moderators' Day, mods!
posted by Rock Steady at 7:44 AM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


We don't need to cover every single hate crime on the blue.

True. I mean, damn, keeping up with the ones committed by klangklangston alone would keep us running all day.

is joke! joke!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:53 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


the "american" there was nearly redundant, but hey, people shooting people is more common than cornflakes over there isn't it?

In 40 years in the U.S., out of all my friends and acquaintances, the only people I have met who have been injured by gunfire were shot: a) in the line of duty as military personnel or b) by the police (rubber bullets).

I have, however, had multiple friends injured by knives, usually as part of an attempted mugging.

Anecdotal, but it makes me roll my eyes at non-USians and their OMGUSAGUNVIOLENCEEVERYWHERE rhetoric. It seems to me that douchebaggery is more responsible for gun violence than gun ownership.
posted by elfgirl at 8:14 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


So, the data may have changed, but I did do a little term paper on gun control a while back. What stuck with me most is that, as a trend, people with knives in a "situation" are more likely to use them than someone with a gun. Guns, of course, tend to do more damage. It was just the one thing that really leapt out at me. Psychologically, it's more comfy to cut someone when you've got a knife.

*begins endless (and pointless) speculating via evolutionary psychology, the science that takes the already shaky methodology of psychology and makes it even harder to prove*
posted by adipocere at 8:33 AM on June 14, 2009


I don't think this callout is warranted, but it did bring up a good point: the mods, as always, acted responsibly and maturely in a tough situation. I'm going to focus on that, instead of all the mud-slinging and ugliness that went on, and feel good about my day.

It's a really beautiful day outside, the sun is shining, and my cats are cuddled up next to me. Life is good, people.
posted by misha at 8:38 AM on June 14, 2009


So, I read "A Paypal-style button at the bottom of each Metafilter thread" as "A Papal-style button at the bottom of each Metafilter thread".

I don't even know what that could entail, but I bet it would be a pain in the ass to code.
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 8:45 AM on June 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


I don't even know what that could entail, but I bet it would be a pain in the ass to code.

But then we could make statements ex coldfusia.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:50 AM on June 14, 2009 [10 favorites]


"But what about the Dutch? Tell me about us!"

You've gotta keep yourselves stoned to the bejesus to forget all your failed colonial atrocities. Also, when you're not on your floating abortion boats, you live in attics. Your language combines the worst parts of German with the worst parts of Klingon, your music is all gabber and trance, and your food would be better if the Spaniards still ran your country. Your uncles are mean, your dates are aren't treats, your wives are prostitutes and your ovens are farts.

Still, better than the Belgians.
posted by klangklangston at 8:52 AM on June 14, 2009 [45 favorites]


"True. I mean, damn, keeping up with the ones committed by klangklangston alone would keep us running all day."

It's a hobby!
posted by klangklangston at 8:54 AM on June 14, 2009


Metafilter: Take or Leave it!

What I mean by this is that mods are mods for a reason. If you seriously don't like a mod decision, get the fuck off of Metafilter and find or found an alternative. Then deal with being a mod yourself for a change.

I promise you that if you walk a mile in a mod's shoes (in ANY community), you'll see why making a decision according to whatever policy/ethical framework you have (formal or informal) is better than the alternative.

The alternative, which you are attempting institute here, sucks. If you (as a mod) don't take a strong stance, make reasonably quick deicions and stick with them, people will walk all over your shit. Precisely as you are attempting to do now.
posted by kalessin at 9:07 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Belgians

Surely we can resolve this with polite discourse and not resort to profanity.
posted by elfgirl at 9:27 AM on June 14, 2009 [6 favorites]


We should send Jessamyn some flowers for Moderators Day. I don't know when that is, but we should do it anyway.
posted by Justinian at 3:54 AM on June 14 [1 favorite +] [!]


flowers? pishposh! pie would be a better option.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:57 AM on June 14 [+] [!]


Maybe a plate of beans?
posted by Balisong at 9:33 AM on June 14, 2009


Kalessin, are you giving us tried and true AMERICA LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT, the bumper sticker which comes with a free gun rack?

Because, as I've always seen it, the United States of America was one of the early examples of "Love It or Change It for the Better."

Similarly, I think it's entirely possible to disagree with a moderator decision and still like the place. It's not a one-or-the-other situation.
posted by adipocere at 9:33 AM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


I've been looking for a safe destination for a summer vacation where I stand no risk of assassination. This thread has me convinced - the USA is it!
posted by stinkycheese at 10:12 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


(the "american" there was nearly redundant, but hey, people shooting people is more common than cornflakes over there isn't it?)

I dunno man, cornflakes are part of a balanced breakfast. Also: steak, eggs, and NASCAR. Shooting people? That's a lunchtime activity.

i'm just thankful not to live somewhere where every second cunt owns a gun.

Two out of my three fathers own guns. I grew up with guns in the house. I learned gun safety and how to clean a gun when I was 8. Both parents used the guns for target shooting and deer hunting. Neither have ever come close to being violent people. I come from a state where hunting is a rite of passage, along with snowmobiling, monster truck driving, and cow-tipping.

I also come from a state with fewer than 30 murders per year. The last murder I remember in Vermont was perpetrated with an axe.

Guns =/= violence. Yes, they make it easier, but I would imagine that more than half of the state of Vermont owns a gun, and yet, the statistics of violent crime would not indicate that these guns are being used for anything more violent than scaring the hell out of some bears.

It's really easy to use statistics out of context to be scary. It's less easy to actually know what the hell you're talking about.

Seriously man? You want to go THERE? Have you recently suffered a head injury? You should get that looked at.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:43 AM on June 14, 2009 [8 favorites]


Still, better than the Belgians.

First they came for the spazzmos, and I was not a spazzmo so I was all, like "whatevs".
Then they came for the Belgians, and I was relieved to see them packed off to the interior.
Then they came for the freaks, and for fuck sakes they stuck us in there with all the spazzmos and Belgians, and that totally sucked.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:52 AM on June 14, 2009 [17 favorites]


Happiness is as warm gun. I thought everyone knew this.
posted by Sailormom at 10:55 AM on June 14, 2009


I have never fired a gun in my life, and only held one once which scared my piss into ice.

I am pro-Northern European, pro-Australian, and pro-America. Whatever that means.

Mods don't need Paypal, they get real pay instead, folks.

I would very much like a cookie.

Can we stop now?

Thank you.

Damn.
posted by Lipstick Thespian at 11:12 AM on June 14, 2009


Still, better than the Belgians.

Not true.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:14 AM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Psychologically, it's more comfy to cut someone when you've got a knife.

Well, you'd spend ages trying to cut them with your Glock I suppose.

Seriously though, this makes no sense to me. To use a knife, you've got to get in close. You're going to run the risk of having it taken away and used on you.

A gun puts a certain distance between you and your victim -- both physical and emotional. It's got to be much easier to pull a trigger at twenty places than to go wading around in the mud and the blood and the beer with a knife.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:21 AM on June 14, 2009


UbuRoivas: hm, lost me a bit there, koeseo.

Sorry—jokes make a lot less sense when I post them at 5 am after a night of coding. Time difference and all.
posted by koeselitz at 11:23 AM on June 14, 2009


*puts axe down, starts grinding Glock*
posted by YoBananaBoy at 11:25 AM on June 14, 2009


Seriously though, this makes no sense to me. To use a knife, you've got to get in close. You're going to run the risk of having it taken away and used on you.

Metafilter: come for the interesting links, stay for the lessons on hand to hand combat!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:28 AM on June 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


klangklangston: Still, better than the Belgians.

The current results on the Belgian score card are actually not quite as dire as you'd think:

______________________BAD___________________________________________GOOD______________________
that infernal TIN-TIN...........-261.5 points.|beer.....................+52,159,439.6 points.|
freakish appearance...............-5.2 points.|waffles.......................+2,962.3 points.|
==============================================================================================

TOTAL SCORE: +52,162,135.2


posted by koeselitz at 11:44 AM on June 14, 2009 [16 favorites]


A Papal-style button at the bottom of each Metafilter thread

Don't click it! It's made of antimatter! It was planted by the Illuminati! Noooooooooooo!
posted by lukemeister at 11:53 AM on June 14, 2009


I'm not sure why I was disappointed when I clicked on the 'shootingfilter' tag.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:22 PM on June 14, 2009


flowers? pishposh! pie would be a better option.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:57 AM on June 14 [+] [!]

Maybe a plate of beans?
posted by Balisong at 12:33 PM on June 14 [+] [!]


There is a middle way, my friends. I give you… the bean pie.
posted by zamboni at 12:23 PM on June 14, 2009


My envy for the mods is only exceeded by how glad I sometimes I am that I don't have to do their jobs.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:24 PM on June 14, 2009


So, I read "A Paypal-style button at the bottom of each Metafilter thread" as "A Papal-style button at the bottom of each Metafilter thread".

I don't even know what that could entail, but I bet it would be a pain in the ass to code.


...and require a funny hat.
posted by Hovercraft Eel at 1:06 PM on June 14, 2009


Still, better than the Belgians.

And then there's the Finland problem.
posted by philip-random at 1:37 PM on June 14, 2009


If you seriously don't like a mod decision, get the fuck off of Metafilter

Whoa. One of the things that I love about Metafilter is the fact that the mods are approachable and open to suggestion. Sure, Metatalk is more like a virtual glue factory due to the sheer amount of ponies that have been ruthlessly shot, but the mods have never said, "WE HAVE NO INTEREST IN YOUR IDIOTIC SUGGESTIONS, PEONS." There have even some *gasp* ponies that survived! It's even possible to reason with the mods and get a decision reversed.
posted by zerokey at 1:52 PM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


Yeah, honestly, we'd be totally satisfied with this:

"If you seriously don't like a mod decision, please figure out some polite way to let us know and don't lose track of the fact that we're probably pretty sympathetic in the first place as long as you aren't yelling at us or ascribing shitty motivations to us."

When shit goes off the rails after those first eight words, it can make for a not-great day, but the existence of Metatalk and the lack of a iron-fisted rule-by-whim administrative culture here is not some accident or oversight: it's what Matt built in the first place and still what we believe is good for the site.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:05 PM on June 14, 2009 [8 favorites]



Happiness is as warm gun. I thought everyone knew this.


No. When barrels heat up the metal thus becomes pliable an more apt to move during recoil sending the round off trajectory and you miss.

Seriously though, this makes no sense to me. To use a knife, you've got to get in close. You're going to run the risk of having it taken away and used on you.

I'll handle this one. I've trained in some Kali knife fighting here and there. Not my bag - I find the idea very unpleasant. But I've worked with some obsessive knife fighter types and studied it with detachment for several years.

Yes. You gotta get in close. But the risk of getting a knife taken away from you by an unarmed person is minimal if you are committed to it. Even against a much larger adversary. Or even a fairly well trained person. Knives are THAT dangerous. People get knives taken from them when they uses them for display or to threaten. That shit don't work. It is that commitment however that makes the knife a difficult weapon for most to wield. It's a very unpleasant business to stab and cut somebody. Not to mention tiring and requiring at least some athletic effort and initiative. Howe ever having a knife in your hand is natural. We all use knives every day. Where as filling you hand with a firearm is somewhat alien to most people. This is why knives are the first weapon trained in many systems serious about killing. It doesn't take long or many advanced attributes to get pretty good at deploying the knife as a weapon. Also why knife against knife is such a horrible prospect. I've seen the after effects of that up close. Truly a fucked up thing.

A gun puts a certain distance between you and your victim -- both physical and emotional. It's got to be much easier to pull a trigger at twenty places than to go wading around in the mud and the blood and the beer with a knife.

Yes. But handguns do require, when used at that needed distance, more and more fine motor skill. Otherwise you also have to get pretty close. Where knives can kill with no more fine motor skill that your average cave man stilted lunging attack. But true pulling a trigger doesn't take as much initiative or commitment. And why you get some many people who regret shooting people. They really DIDN'T mean to do it. But with knife homicides you more often here "Yeah. I'm glad that fucker is dead." It takes serious commitment to stab somebody 42 times. Not to mention cardio.
posted by tkchrist at 2:16 PM on June 14, 2009 [20 favorites]


This thread went a lot better than I feared it would. It was one of those OH FUCK WHY DID I POST THAT scenes. Sorry about all that dickitude.

It wasn't the deletion I had a problem with per se; honestly, it was a terrible post, and the theme is getting a tad exhausting. It's just that the given explanation (which seemed kind of terrible) and its tone (worse) really, really rubbed me the wrong way, especially with so many other perfectly valid reasons to axe the FPP.

I certainly didn't mean for this MeTa post to be a callout or a shot at Jessamyn's character; Jessamyn is good people, which made that deletion reason all the more baffling.

Basically, it was a WTF, not a Fuck You. Sorry about the confusion. I swear I'm not the sort of person who writes someone off based on a couple of lines they've typed on the internet.

Anyway, now that I've slept on it (note to self: sleep on it before posting), I think my initial huffy whinging screed should ideally be interpreted to be asking about--rather than questioning, like an asshole--the amount of consideration given to those deletion reasons, their intended purpose, and so on. I think that's what I was getting at, anyway.

So, yeah, "...?"
posted by Sys Rq at 2:19 PM on June 14, 2009 [6 favorites]


tkchrist, if I could favourite your comment a few times more I would. I found it informative but what did it for me was the last sentence. I don't often laugh out loud when reading MeFi, but this was one occasion.
posted by ob at 2:25 PM on June 14, 2009


It was one of those OH FUCK WHY DID I POST THAT scenes. Sorry about all that dickitude.

NP. You get one of the frequently-given dickitude discounts on account of I've met you and figured you were just WTFing and not really OMGFUCKYOUing.

It's hard to write a deletion reason quickly and effectively and cortex is much better at it than I am. I like that we have personalized-to-the-occasion removal messages but it does mean that there is a lot of scrutiny that a laundry list of options might not get. Really the basic feeling is, after a long exhausting week of outrage here on MeFi, there's a certain tone deafness to posting yet another "crappy people doing terrible things, including to children" post, esp with the right wing angle to it. This is not to discount the seriousness of what's going on, but to note that there are better and worse ways to make a post like that here on MeFi, a point I've probably made too many times already.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:29 PM on June 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


I think my initial huffy whinging screed should ideally be interpreted to be asking about--rather than questioning, like an asshole--the amount of consideration given to those deletion reasons, their intended purpose, and so on.

Fair question. My take:

The reason is there as, ideally, a guide to some of the reasoning behind the deletion, but not so much as sole and canonical justification for the deletion.

In other words, the only reason there's a message there at all is because one of us (or 2-3 of us, if it's a borderline thing and we're around) has already decided that it needs to go. We didn't delete it because of The Reason; that's just some text we provide while we're at it.

Back in the day, there were no reasons, but Matt added the field to help I think defray some of the confusion and questioning that came up (in email, in metatalk) from deletions. Eventually (shortly after I came on, I think) we added names as well. Both of these things add a little more info to the process of removing a post, which is great insofar as it can help with transparency but also has a cost: people reacting not to the deletion itself but what we happen to say in the reason.

For example:

It wasn't the deletion I had a problem with per se; honestly, it was a terrible post, and the theme is getting a tad exhausting.

Post deleted. Deletion agreed with. Case closed, and yet...

It's just that the given explanation (which seemed kind of terrible) and its tone (worse) really, really rubbed me the wrong way, especially with so many other perfectly valid reasons to axe the FPP.

The reasons aren't canon. That isn't everything that could possibly be said about the post and the decision to delete it. We try to keep 'em concise and on target, but we write a lot of the damned things and every once in a while we get lazy or sloppy or deploy too much shorthand or assume too many shared assumptions and it results in something less perfect than we'd hope for.

We don't always write those things up under ideal conditions. The last week or so and the context of that post all added up to something pretty far, in fact, from ideal conditions, and it showed through in what Jess ended up writing.

A lot of times when we're both around, the two of us will bounce things off each other and take the chance to refine how we want to summarize or express stuff, and we've saved one another's respective bacon many times thanks to that.
posted by cortex (staff) at 2:45 PM on June 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


Worst. Flameout. Ever.

*hugs MetaFilter*
posted by Sys Rq at 2:45 PM on June 14, 2009


It takes serious commitment to stab somebody 42 times. Not to mention cardio.

Hmm, I see a new exercise program. Billy Blanks, your next video-and-franchise deal is waiting for you.
posted by rodgerd at 2:52 PM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


It seems to me that douchebaggery is more responsible for gun violence than gun ownership.

Yeah, sorry about that whole derail - a Canadian housemate's boyfriend just showed up & brought a bottle of duty free Canadian whisky, so I was shooting the shit with less restraint than I would've liked. But the whisky was tasty - another reason to invade.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:59 PM on June 14, 2009


irish catholic disdain for power & authority

The what for which and huh? Disdain for English power and authority, sure. Disdain for secular power and authority, not so much: Irish Catholics in the US spent a century becoming the powerful authority figures. Meanwhile, what ethnic group has historically been any more willingly ground beneath the jackboot of the Church than the Irish?
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:04 PM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


"i'm just thankful not to live somewhere where every second cunt owns a gun." If gun ownership is limited in your area to 50% of the female population, I'm glad I don't live there. If you refer to your gentlemen as cunts, I guess I'm also glad I don't live there.

My father raised his children that you never left the state without a bottle of booze and a gun. It was a long time ago, and he traveled for a living. You might get caught by sundown in a dry county and couldn't buy booze in those days. The gun was because in those days the closest law enforcement could be a long ways from you and your problem. In his memory, I still carry both.

I had to use the gun once, when I hit a deer and broke his back at the shoulders. I was damn glad I had it. I used the booze once, to keep a wound clean until I could get to help.

/ >derail
posted by unrepentanthippie at 4:12 PM on June 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


"I had to use the gun once, when I hit a deer and broke his back at the shoulders. I was damn glad I had it. I used the booze once, to keep a wound clean until I could get to help"

Antler wound, perhaps?

:)
posted by mr_crash_davis mark II: Jazz Odyssey at 4:38 PM on June 14, 2009


the whisky was tasty - another reason to invade

Why do you think we hang out with the gun nuts?

I love you, America!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:41 PM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


You might get caught by sundown in a dry county

OMG!!11! Teh hoRRorS!
posted by five fresh fish at 4:50 PM on June 14, 2009


Well, you'd spend ages trying to cut them with your Glock I suppose.

One word: Bayonet.

Best of both worlds.

I've said it before, I see no value for myself in owning a gun and will never purchase one unless it is specifically for the purpose of murdering someone. My gun training ended when I quit the Boy Scouts but I would do some proper research to find the "best bang for my buck", making sure that it held enough bullets in the chamber to make up for my shaky hand. But I've never been motivated into even doing the research, for which I take pride. I can think of gun-free defensive strategies for any threat, most of which I haven't had to use. And I've always driven cars that, if I hit a deer, would take more damage than the deer. I also carry a booze bottle filled with rubbing alcohol for cleaning out wounds (and also for poisoning carjackers).

It seems to me that douchebaggery is more responsible for gun violence than gun ownership.

I have/had a couple of neighbors from whom I had some reason to fear being shot if I pissed them off (effectively eliminating my "First Amendment Rights" in the neighborhood), but the closest one (with whom I share a fairly thick wall) just moved out. I'm celebrating.

"We don't need to cover every single hate crime on the blue."

We don't. In my highly civilized area, we've had some disturbing "incidents" (I HATE that word) lately, including a couple resulting in death, but the closest to my location was a vicious assault on a church sign that was promoting Tolerance perpetrated by a "douchebag" who lived next door to it and bragged about it afterwards. I was quite happy that the people he bragged to "ratted" on him. As I said, I'm in a highly civilized area, and it took very little Googling to see that we have a below average rate of Hate Crime. And so does MetaFilter. I suspect an "All Hate Crime Outrage" site would be pretty popular on the Web, maybe even more so than some of the numerous Hate Crime-promoting ones.
posted by wendell at 5:09 PM on June 14, 2009


If gun ownership is limited in your area to 50% of the female population

Sorry, I shouldn't have dropped that word, either; but yeah, it's normally only used to describe men for some reason, more or less interchangeably with "arsehole", depending on context. I'm well aware that it's more charged in the US, and should've used "arsehole" instead,
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:14 PM on June 14, 2009


>But the whisky was tasty - another reason to invade

We'd probably just roll-over if you'd offer some sort of "exchange" program during the winter months...
posted by jkaczor at 5:26 PM on June 14, 2009


U.R.
Apologies for any cultural misunderstanding; my bad.
posted by unrepentanthippie at 5:46 PM on June 14, 2009


I'll admit to being sort of excited to know of a gun-toting hippie.
posted by heyho at 5:50 PM on June 14, 2009


a Canadian housemate's boyfriend just showed up & brought a bottle of duty free Canadian whisky

I was round a friend's house once and, late on in the evening, he pulled out an unopened plastic bottle of something literally called 'Canadian Whiskey' that he reckoned belonged to his dad at some point. We drank it. It was awful.
posted by ob at 5:57 PM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


It seems to me that douchebaggery is more responsible for gun violence than gun ownership.

Given that suicides consistently account for the vast majority of firearm deaths in the U.S., I'd be willing to argue that it's clinical depression that's more responsible.
posted by scody at 6:06 PM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


Repentant hippie - no problems. This is an ongoing thing, whereby Brits & Aussies normally throw the word around very casually, but Americans apparently consider it about the most offensive, sexist slur possible. Nothing much to do about the impasse, other than to try & avoid using it.

I absolutely do want that doormat, though.

And midwinter here or not, the Canadians have taken off for Cairns & the Great Barrier Reef. Should still be very pleasant - Sydney's a sparkling, sunny 18 Celsius today.

As for gun-toting hippies...I thought they preferred to call guns "vases"
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:12 PM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


I want the doormat too. If you ever figure it out, you should absolutely set up an Etsy site. You'd make a cunting fortune.

(Is the word 'cunting' regarded as obnoxious by Americans as well? It's hard to see how that could be viewed as misogynistic?)
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:32 PM on June 14, 2009


Given that suicides consistently account for the vast majority of firearm deaths in the U.S.

Let me rephrase, then: It seems to me that douchebaggery is more responsible for gun violence against others than gun ownership.
posted by elfgirl at 6:39 PM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


"Cunting" pretty much never comes up in common use in the US for the same reasons that there's any debate over the use of the root word—it's an inflection of a usage that itself isn't common here. The only time I can recall even having heard it was in The Exorcist, in which it was hissed out by the Satan-supplied voice of the mom's dead British friend during a round of diabolical impressions ("You see what she did to me, your cunting daughter?").
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:39 PM on June 14, 2009


I always like "cunting buttfuck" - one of those completely nonsensical epithets that just make you laugh.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:49 PM on June 14, 2009


That said, maybe stop it?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:06 PM on June 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


I, for one, loved it in The Exorcist, and I've been trying to get others to say it for decades - though I've made little progress on that front. People just insist on hearing a vulgar word, and that's silly to me. "Cunt" is funny. What I find vulgar is that fucking CSI show.
posted by heyho at 7:12 PM on June 14, 2009


Sorry, Jess. I didn't preview.
posted by heyho at 7:12 PM on June 14, 2009


Yes, I am seriously saying that if you don't like a mod's decision (on any community) and cannot work it out in a respectful (according to the rules of the community), you should seriously consider fucking off.

This is my personal opinion and I'm probably the better off that these mods on Metafilter are way more tolerant than that.

I do think it's cool that Metafilter has mechanisms and cultural expectations by which it's OK for members to question mod decisions, and it's cool that it sounds like sometimes members have made convincing arguments that have been heard by the mods.

But. I also think that it's completely reasonable for mods in general (and in specific, these mods) to have boundaries about what they will and will not do, will and will not change their minds about, and will not speak about. I fully expect that there will be times when mods do things that seem nonsensical to us and will refuse to give us details. This could be for legal or personal reasons, I don't care. To me, it's important that there's a line that mods can articulate that we as members respect.

That's where my opinions about getting out of here if you can't deal with it come from.

Alteratively? Stick around long enough, contribute long enough, be respected enough to get a role here as a mod. Then I wish you luck, because if you can't handle this end of being moderated, I really don't think you'll figure out how to become or be a good mod. But maybe you can prove me wrong.
posted by kalessin at 7:17 PM on June 14, 2009 [1 favorite]


For the record, Ubu loves this track even more than I do.
posted by gman at 7:24 PM on June 14, 2009


Sorry, jessamyn; was just replying to cortex.
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:32 PM on June 14, 2009


What I find vulgar is that fucking CSI show.

Oh God, I can't stand that show, and yet I almost feel compelled to watch it; a bit like rubbernecking at a car crash.

Funnily enough, one of the things that drives me up the wall is how they have all these good-looking young women who just happen to have multiple Ph.Ds in quantum theory, forensic psychology & international hostage negotiation (which they must have started studying approximately a decade before they were even born) and yet I went along to a conference recently where a bunch of ladies showed up from the Defence Science & Technology Organisation, and fuck me if they weren't all pressed out of the exact same CSI-chick mould.
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:39 PM on June 14, 2009


The fans, the flames, the favorites, the rages, the uh, nasty words. Metagate. Thanks jessamyn.
posted by effluvia at 7:42 PM on June 14, 2009


I fully expect that there will be times when mods do things that seem nonsensical to us and will refuse to give us details. This could be for legal or personal reasons, I don't care.

I doubt the site owner, the mods, or a majority of the users would agree. If you were an idiot, I suppose you could invent some Jack Bauer scenario that would require complete noncommunication. But since you're likely not an idiot, we probably don't have to entertain such extreme measures. Metafilter has a history of hashing things out in Metatalk, whether you like it or not.
posted by ryanrs at 8:48 PM on June 14, 2009


I lost some sleep last week dealing with the Holocaust shooting stuff here on the site

note to self: sleep on it before posting)

the post that's the subject of this question was made late at night

jokes make a lot less sense when I post them at 5 am

This is not how people with normal jobs spend their Saturday nights, I can tell you that.

Note: Everyone needs a hug nap
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:13 PM on June 14, 2009 [3 favorites]


posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:13 AM on June 15
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:14 PM on June 14, 2009 [2 favorites]


I also come from a state with fewer than 30 murders per year.

Me too. Although to be fair, the farmers sometimes resort to painting NOT A DEER on their cows during hunting season.
posted by txvtchick at 10:15 PM on June 14, 2009 [4 favorites]


For the record, Ubu loves this track even more than I do.

If that's some kind of horrendous Goa trance, you're up for libel.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:16 PM on June 14, 2009


Sure. Stopped.

Though it's still curious to me how you can have a graphic discussion about whether it's more effective to dispatch somebody with a knife or a gun and nobody turns a hair, but drop the c-word into a thread and folks get all offended.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:35 PM on June 14, 2009


That's a very rough parallel with the idea that violence is A-OK on TV and in films, but you'd better be sure not to show any breasts or genitals.

Meanwhile, I've been trying to think of any swear words here that people get really offended by, in the way that you-know-what upsets our American friends, and I can't think of anything - other than maybe straight out racist slurs (and then, only when used against people of that race).

But none of the sexually-based insults I can think of (MF, CS, W-er, Prick, etc etc) seem to carry that sort of charge...? What's the situation like in the UK?
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:04 AM on June 15, 2009


Oh, and to pre-empt any explanations, I think we just need to accept that it's a fundamentally different word in the US - especially in the sense that it seems to be particularly misogynistically applied (only?) against women, which is quite a different application.

Funnily enough, I don't actually use it all that much in spoken English - for ages now, I've preferred the Spanish "cono" (with a cedilla or something over the n) as an expletive, eg if I stub my toe or miss a bus or something. The fun part is that you can yell it even in the politest of company, and nobody cares.

Except one time when I was in Mexico. Hearing that certain ruins could be visited for free on Sundays, we showed up there to find that it was only free for Mexicans, with the result that the place was absolutely crawling with annoying pickinicking families - screaming kids & all.

I was at the ticket counter saying "cono! cono! cono! cono! cono!" before I noticed people were looking at me funny, and remembered it's a Spanish-speaking country.

posted by UbuRoivas at 12:14 AM on June 15, 2009 [1 favorite]


What's the situation like in the UK?
We get brought up to know when it's time to drop the subject, bonny lad.
posted by Abiezer at 12:29 AM on June 15, 2009 [3 favorites]


Yes - a crack on the head
Is what you get for not asking
And a crack on the head
Is what you get for asking.

But regarding the subject, I was bored before I even began. I'm sorry I even started it.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:09 AM on June 15, 2009


@ryanrs, nice baiting technique. Very refined.

Anyhow, it should be obvious that I know I'm in MetaTalk talking about how to talk things out with mods, so I actually do like that it's an available option here. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect that the option will always be available, even on Metafilter.
posted by kalessin at 4:55 AM on June 15, 2009


I had to use the gun once, when I hit a deer and broke his back at the shoulders. I was damn glad I had it. I used the booze once, to keep a wound clean until I could get to help.

I am tempted to link to the famous "Deer and ambulance 911 phone call" audio. But I won't. Google "deer" AND "ambulance." Should be the first link.

I carry a gun everywhere I go just to shoot the cap off my bottle of booze.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:04 AM on June 15, 2009


I just don't think it's reasonable to expect that the option will always be available, even on Metafilter.

I hope it is, here at least. I remember when Matt created MeTa, and to a large extent I think its existence and use has shaped the culture of MeFi (which I'm quite fond of).
posted by elfgirl at 6:25 AM on June 15, 2009


Dave Neiwert is journalist who focuses on the right wing groups and their antics almost exclusively and his blog Orcinus is worth following about this stuff.

Seconded.

That is all.
posted by desuetude at 6:45 AM on June 15, 2009


Though it's still curious to me how you can have a graphic discussion about whether it's more effective to dispatch somebody with a knife or a gun and nobody turns a hair, but drop the c-word into a thread and folks get all offended.

A big part of it has to do with how scary assholes aren't as inclined to shout e.g. "hey, a knife is a more effective tool for up-close combat in the hands of a committed attacker!" at women, how people don't dismiss girls they dislike as "stupid knife-lovers", etc. Apples and oranges: these aren't points on a logical continuum, they're largely unrelated issues.

I don't really want to keep this particular conversation going, either, so, yeah, let's acknowledge that there's some very distinct cultural baggage here on a couple different fronts that may make it hard to explain satisfactorily to folks exposed largely to a somewhat more casual and far more gender-neutral version of the word and maybe leave it at that for now.
posted by cortex (staff) at 6:51 AM on June 15, 2009 [3 favorites]


This all could have been avoided through use of superscripts, as per my earlier proposal.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:11 AM on June 15, 2009


I'll admit it: I watched the Star Trek movie and now I've taken to using "Romulan" as my default insult.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 8:44 AM on June 15, 2009 [3 favorites]


Oh, MeTa, how you've grown up since the days when mods would post pictures of chicken-fuckers.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:56 AM on June 15, 2009


I like wielding an usuba bocho in close against a daikon. Those crazy radishes don't have a chance.
posted by everichon at 9:19 AM on June 15, 2009


the days when mods would post pictures of chicken-fuckers

The images were linked to by jessamyn, and animated and posted in-thread by someone else.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:20 AM on June 15, 2009 [3 favorites]


Yeah, is there a Snopes-like reference for MeFi urban legends? It seems like people seem to remember the chicken-fucking events incorrectly more often than not.
posted by SpiffyRob at 10:11 AM on June 15, 2009


I was going to make an entry on the Wiki, but I've been leery of the place ever sine cortex flipped out and replaced all the entries with the Treaty of Utrecht.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:31 AM on June 15, 2009


40 f-bombs so far. Worst Tarintino script ever.
posted by Brocktoon at 12:37 PM on June 15, 2009


I love making it to the end of a thread and seeing that everyone has talked it all out, and made (reasonably) nice.

So is now the right point to ask the Brits and Aussies - since we've cleared other annoying language (I myself hate the c-word, but I'm never sure how common it is for people to dislike it) - is it only the Brits who can't say the word bugger in polite society or do the Aussies have a "mustn't say" rule on that too?

Also didn't someone once say in here that you weren't a true MeFi FPPoster until you'd had more than one thread deleted? (Or something like that. I never have managed to post one myself, so I'm still a noob.) Someone once told me there was a secret ceremony and you'd get a bronze pair of wings/badge of honor pin'd to your lapel once you achieved that goal, but I think they were just messing with me.
posted by batgrlHG at 10:02 PM on June 15, 2009


What's "polite society"? Buggered if I've ever heard of it.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:01 PM on June 15, 2009


is it only the Brits who can't say the word bugger in polite society or do the Aussies have a "mustn't say" rule on that too?

Judge for yourself.
posted by Ritchie at 11:08 PM on June 15, 2009


Boy, that google image search mentioned in the infamous "chickenfucker" thread sure has gotten graphic.
posted by subbes at 11:27 PM on June 15, 2009



I was at the ticket counter saying "coño! coño! coño! coño! coño...

Hee! My brother married a Venezuelan, and they've got relatives and in-laws all over the place. Say coño to a Cuban, and you might get knifed - or a strong glare. Saying it in, well, I forget the region, is more like saying "fucking a!" - as in positive. Not sure what the FCC would do if Bono started that up.

Brother had to explain that to me when he said "coño!" while seemingly congratulating me on something. I'd spent a year in Miami, mostly around Little Havana, so I was very confused.

posted by lysdexic at 2:17 AM on June 16, 2009


batgrlHG: …is it only the Brits who can't say the word bugger in polite society or do the Aussies have a "mustn't say" rule on that too?

UbuRoivas: What's "polite society"? Buggered if I've ever heard of it.

Yes, batgrlHG, Australians know no such thing as “polite society;” this is a positive, not a negative.

Then again, everything I know about Australia is gleaned from Nick Cave; the films Mad Max, Gallipoli, Strictly Ballroom and The Proposition; a kangaroo I met once; an episode of BBC World Service program “From our own correspondent” that I heard when I was young; and the relatively unpleasant and unsober hordes of young Australian males who made the festival of San Fermines in Pamplona something akin to a living hell.
posted by koeselitz at 3:06 AM on June 16, 2009


> Someone once told me there was a secret ceremony and you'd get a bronze pair of wings/badge of honor pin'd to your lapel once you achieved that goal, but I think they were just messing with me.

Yeah, they were, I'm afraid. It's a lot more... painful than that. But you get over it, eventually, and then you're a Made Member and can apply to join the cabal. Of course, there are the nightmares, but that's the price you pay for moving up in life.

> ! My brother married a Venezuelan, and they've got relatives and in-laws all over the place. Say coño to a Cuban, and you might get knifed - or a strong glare. Saying it in, well, I forget the region, is more like saying "fucking a!" - as in positive.

In Argentina they don't use it at all (except to mock Spaniards)—they say concha instead. Which causes much hilarity when women named Concepción visit, who use Concha as a nickname.
posted by languagehat at 7:37 AM on June 16, 2009 [2 favorites]


Which causes much hilarity when women named Concepción visit, who use Concha as a nickname.

Concepción is itself pretty freaking hilarious.
posted by Sys Rq at 11:00 AM on June 16, 2009


Depends on how immaculate the woman is.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:21 PM on June 16, 2009


they say concha instead.

I always parsed Conchita as "little conch" & thought "are you fucking serious?!??"
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:28 PM on June 16, 2009


Accused ringleader Shawna Forde told her family in recent months that she had begun recruiting members of the Aryan Nations and that she planned to begin robbing drug-cartel leaders, her brother Merrill Metzger said Monday in a telephone interview from Redding, Calif.

"She was talking about starting a revolution against the United States government," he said
.
posted by caddis at 10:49 AM on June 17, 2009


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