Airing dirty linen in public July 24, 2002 4:49 PM Subscribe
Given that MeTa is mostly used for private discussions about what goes on in MeFi, should there be links to it on the front page of MeFi for all to see? Would it be more appropriate for it to be discreetly linked from somewhere else or, to take it to the extreme, only available to logged-in users?
Airing dirty linen in public is not usually considered the "done thing" and hiding it from public scrutiny may allow more open and honest discussions.
Airing dirty linen in public is not usually considered the "done thing" and hiding it from public scrutiny may allow more open and honest discussions.
should there be links to it on the front page of MeFi for all to see
Is the link in the navigation not enough for ya?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:59 PM on July 24, 2002
Is the link in the navigation not enough for ya?
posted by mathowie (staff) at 4:59 PM on July 24, 2002
I think dg's saying we should hide it more, Matt.
posted by crunchland at 5:01 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by crunchland at 5:01 PM on July 24, 2002
I'm not sure if I would have joined had I not been able to lurk in MetaTalk. 'Course some folks might consider that a feature of hiding it.
posted by timeistight at 5:02 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by timeistight at 5:02 PM on July 24, 2002
Sorry, mathowie, I guess I didn't make my intention clear - I am suggesting that the link be removed. My idea being that MeTa be a more private discussion area rather than public.
posted by dg at 5:03 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by dg at 5:03 PM on July 24, 2002
Airing dirty linen in public is not usually considered the "done thing" and hiding it from public scrutiny may allow more open and honest discussions.
dg, I understand that you're new here, but I assume you've lurked for a while. Have you seen the lynchings that go on around here? Hell, I've already had my ass handed to me half a dozen times. I don't think MeTa could become more open and honest if it tried. In fact, I would actually like to see the exact opposite occur. I would like to see more MeTa threads being posted to the MeFi page, because I'm pretty sure that many MeFi members stay away from this place to avoid being lynched.
posted by BlueTrain at 5:05 PM on July 24, 2002
dg, I understand that you're new here, but I assume you've lurked for a while. Have you seen the lynchings that go on around here? Hell, I've already had my ass handed to me half a dozen times. I don't think MeTa could become more open and honest if it tried. In fact, I would actually like to see the exact opposite occur. I would like to see more MeTa threads being posted to the MeFi page, because I'm pretty sure that many MeFi members stay away from this place to avoid being lynched.
posted by BlueTrain at 5:05 PM on July 24, 2002
Why dg? You think things would get better if it was deemed more private? How so?
A few examples maybe of how it would improve things and maybe a few living example of how honesty has been harmed?
It's pretty standard that I don't make a change unless the benefits outweigh the costs, and in this case I'm lost on how metatalk becoming some secret room is a good thing.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 5:06 PM on July 24, 2002
A few examples maybe of how it would improve things and maybe a few living example of how honesty has been harmed?
It's pretty standard that I don't make a change unless the benefits outweigh the costs, and in this case I'm lost on how metatalk becoming some secret room is a good thing.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 5:06 PM on July 24, 2002
i was furious the first time i found out i was being discussed in metatalk without anyone having the deceny to tell me. having a link at the top of the page is the least we can do to make sure that those being criticised have some chance of replying.
posted by andrew cooke at 5:07 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by andrew cooke at 5:07 PM on July 24, 2002
Yes, BlueTrain, I have seen the lynchings that go on here - my suggestion is that perhaps people other than members shoudn't see them.
posted by dg at 5:10 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by dg at 5:10 PM on July 24, 2002
Seems to me that there's at least as much ugliness over in the blue as there is here.
posted by timeistight at 5:12 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by timeistight at 5:12 PM on July 24, 2002
I guess I'm mystified as to why we'd want to have a secret page. What's next, MetaGarments?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:14 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:14 PM on July 24, 2002
my suggestion is that perhaps people other than members shoudn't see them.
Why?
posted by BlueTrain at 5:17 PM on July 24, 2002
Why?
posted by BlueTrain at 5:17 PM on July 24, 2002
I think dg is embarassed by the antics that go on here, crash. He'd like to keep it out of the public eye. Am I right, dg?
posted by timeistight at 5:19 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by timeistight at 5:19 PM on July 24, 2002
I don't make a change unless the benefits outweigh the costs
An excellent policy. My suggestion is in the light of what I see (perhaps incorrectly?) as the main purpose of MeTa, being to keep the ugly side of things and the admin stuff such as bug reports etc away from MeFi. I am simply suggesting an extension of that to make MeTa less "mainstream" and more functional. Businesses don't hold their staff meetings in public and that this the way that I view MeTa - a place where members can talk without being under the gaze of the public. I know that this can be done via e-mail, but that prohibits others from participating.
I don't necessarily feel that honesty has been harmed by having MeTa so public, but the potential is there, I believe. From peoples' comments, I seem to be in a minority of one.
timeistight - not quite embarrassed, but I do not feel that the goings-on in MeTa are always suitable for public consumption. I think maybe long-time members forget how many are lurking out there unseen.
posted by dg at 5:41 PM on July 24, 2002
An excellent policy. My suggestion is in the light of what I see (perhaps incorrectly?) as the main purpose of MeTa, being to keep the ugly side of things and the admin stuff such as bug reports etc away from MeFi. I am simply suggesting an extension of that to make MeTa less "mainstream" and more functional. Businesses don't hold their staff meetings in public and that this the way that I view MeTa - a place where members can talk without being under the gaze of the public. I know that this can be done via e-mail, but that prohibits others from participating.
I don't necessarily feel that honesty has been harmed by having MeTa so public, but the potential is there, I believe. From peoples' comments, I seem to be in a minority of one.
timeistight - not quite embarrassed, but I do not feel that the goings-on in MeTa are always suitable for public consumption. I think maybe long-time members forget how many are lurking out there unseen.
posted by dg at 5:41 PM on July 24, 2002
well, now we are the laughingstock of all the boyzone sites.
posted by quonsar at 5:41 PM on July 24, 2002 [1 favorite]
posted by quonsar at 5:41 PM on July 24, 2002 [1 favorite]
Wait 'til you get your MetaGarments, quonsar.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:44 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:44 PM on July 24, 2002
I agree with timeistight. MetaTalk was one of the key reasons why I joined. The ad hominems and mudslinging are delicious.
I can see why some members would be embarrassed by the goings-on here, but I think it's noble that it's out here. We're NOT afraid to show the dirty laundry. We're NOT afraid to show our petty sides.
It makes for a bit of a contradiction, which I think is beautiful.
posted by rocketman at 5:53 PM on July 24, 2002
I can see why some members would be embarrassed by the goings-on here, but I think it's noble that it's out here. We're NOT afraid to show the dirty laundry. We're NOT afraid to show our petty sides.
It makes for a bit of a contradiction, which I think is beautiful.
posted by rocketman at 5:53 PM on July 24, 2002
As with timeistight and rocketman, I enjoyed reading MeTa as a lurker, as it provides an insight into the community and its members that you do not get from MeFi (I particularly enjoy a good bit of mudslinging, myself). I take a certain amount of pride in being a member here, and do not like to see the ugly (uglier?) side of the community laid out for all to see.
On the other hand, perhaps a thread that talks about Mormon underwear should be what we are hiding from public view ;-)
posted by dg at 6:04 PM on July 24, 2002
On the other hand, perhaps a thread that talks about Mormon underwear should be what we are hiding from public view ;-)
posted by dg at 6:04 PM on July 24, 2002
Hmmm ...
Don't bother to show me the door, I can find my own way out.
Assholes.
posted by ffmike at 5:15 PM PST on July 24
posted by dg at 6:16 PM on July 24, 2002
Don't bother to show me the door, I can find my own way out.
Assholes.
posted by ffmike at 5:15 PM PST on July 24
posted by dg at 6:16 PM on July 24, 2002
From the MeTa front page : MetaTalk is a discussion area for topics specific to MetaFilter itself, ranging from bug reports to feature requests to questions of content...
MetaTalk is a key part of the experiment that is Metafilter, dg. Smack me down if I'm wrong and get all ugly on me and stuff (this is a joke. I'm really at a loss as to what you mean by the 'ugliness' in MeTa, as opposed to over in the Blue), but I think the 'self-policing' aspect is key to what Metafilter is, and has been the primary engine both in the transformation of the community over the past few years, preserving the elements that have remained unchanged, and the (comparatively, when one looks elsewhere around the web) high level of intelligence and civility here.
Without MeTa front and centre, both new users and older ones have little way of understanding what the (current, mind you, as these things have a way of morphing over time) community standards are here. As such, it should be highly visible. I'd venture to say it must be, if this self-policing business (which I think works very well indeed) is to continue. There is no content moderation here, and because of this, MetaTalk is vital to develop and maintain and make public the standards for the site that we as a community see fit to observe.
This article is worth reading, if you haven't before. A quote :
"MetaFilter's creator, Matt Haughey, jokes that the site works on a system of "public shaming." And he's right – make a mistake once and you're unlikely to do it again. Instead of your errant post getting silently filtered away, it's up to the community to reinforce its own norms. It can be a brutal process, but not any more brutal that the accusations of karma whoring on Slashdot, and it comes with much less interface baggage."
If I'm wrong about any of this, please tell me.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:21 PM on July 24, 2002
MetaTalk is a key part of the experiment that is Metafilter, dg. Smack me down if I'm wrong and get all ugly on me and stuff (this is a joke. I'm really at a loss as to what you mean by the 'ugliness' in MeTa, as opposed to over in the Blue), but I think the 'self-policing' aspect is key to what Metafilter is, and has been the primary engine both in the transformation of the community over the past few years, preserving the elements that have remained unchanged, and the (comparatively, when one looks elsewhere around the web) high level of intelligence and civility here.
Without MeTa front and centre, both new users and older ones have little way of understanding what the (current, mind you, as these things have a way of morphing over time) community standards are here. As such, it should be highly visible. I'd venture to say it must be, if this self-policing business (which I think works very well indeed) is to continue. There is no content moderation here, and because of this, MetaTalk is vital to develop and maintain and make public the standards for the site that we as a community see fit to observe.
This article is worth reading, if you haven't before. A quote :
"MetaFilter's creator, Matt Haughey, jokes that the site works on a system of "public shaming." And he's right – make a mistake once and you're unlikely to do it again. Instead of your errant post getting silently filtered away, it's up to the community to reinforce its own norms. It can be a brutal process, but not any more brutal that the accusations of karma whoring on Slashdot, and it comes with much less interface baggage."
If I'm wrong about any of this, please tell me.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:21 PM on July 24, 2002
Given that MeTa is mostly used for private discussions about what goes on in MeFi
Actually, I don't think it's in any way intended to be private -- if anything, MetaTalk could benefit from greater awareness that this is a public forum. In principle there shouldn't be anything said here that the community would in any way feel ashamed of. Unless of course you think the entire site (both blue and grey) should be hidden from public view.
posted by mattpfeff at 6:21 PM on July 24, 2002
Actually, I don't think it's in any way intended to be private -- if anything, MetaTalk could benefit from greater awareness that this is a public forum. In principle there shouldn't be anything said here that the community would in any way feel ashamed of. Unless of course you think the entire site (both blue and grey) should be hidden from public view.
posted by mattpfeff at 6:21 PM on July 24, 2002
Heh. Cheers, stav. (If you'd been two minutes earlier, you'd have saved me the trouble!)
posted by mattpfeff at 6:24 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by mattpfeff at 6:24 PM on July 24, 2002
Businesses don't hold their staff meetings in public and that this the way that I view MeTa - a place where members can talk without being under the gaze of the public
But this isn't a business, and the fact you're making this post calls into question your description of how you view MeTa. The growth of the site depends upon everybody being privy to pretty much everything, or at least having it available. MeTa being visible does show the ugly side sometimes, but it also shows that there isn't necessarily approval of some of the dumb crap that happens in MeFi, either. And everybody gets to see that stuff(Palestine thread, anyone?).
Airing dirty linen in public is not usually considered the "done thing"...
This just makes me think of bad WASP jokes about how they don't have arguments, they have "discussions" and that sort of thing. We're not shiny happy people having shiny happy discussions all the time. I see no reason to hide that.
I'm not quite sure what your ffmike example was supposed to prove. Could you elaborate? MeTa being private wouldn't have shielded him. He's a member.
posted by Su at 6:32 PM on July 24, 2002
But this isn't a business, and the fact you're making this post calls into question your description of how you view MeTa. The growth of the site depends upon everybody being privy to pretty much everything, or at least having it available. MeTa being visible does show the ugly side sometimes, but it also shows that there isn't necessarily approval of some of the dumb crap that happens in MeFi, either. And everybody gets to see that stuff(Palestine thread, anyone?).
Airing dirty linen in public is not usually considered the "done thing"...
This just makes me think of bad WASP jokes about how they don't have arguments, they have "discussions" and that sort of thing. We're not shiny happy people having shiny happy discussions all the time. I see no reason to hide that.
I'm not quite sure what your ffmike example was supposed to prove. Could you elaborate? MeTa being private wouldn't have shielded him. He's a member.
posted by Su at 6:32 PM on July 24, 2002
stavrosthewonderchicken - excellent link, great article and informative for someone who is relatively new to the whole world of on-line communities. Having sampled others such as plastic and kuro5hin, I am immensely glad to be here, I can assure you. If I wasn't so polite, I would tell you where you can shove your karma and mojo.
You certainly make a point about the role of MeTa in the self-policing process - an aspect that I had not considered. Certainly, if the price of effective self-policing is to air dirty linen in public, we should not hesitate to do so.
The fact that people have taken the trouble to make the above posts in some ways reinforces the point in the article about the way that MeFi keeps the level of discourse high - it would have been easy for my post to be ignored completely, but it was not. I appreciate that my suggestion was given considered thought by so many and it is quite obviously not the wish of the community that it be taken up. I stand humbled.
posted by dg at 6:48 PM on July 24, 2002
You certainly make a point about the role of MeTa in the self-policing process - an aspect that I had not considered. Certainly, if the price of effective self-policing is to air dirty linen in public, we should not hesitate to do so.
The fact that people have taken the trouble to make the above posts in some ways reinforces the point in the article about the way that MeFi keeps the level of discourse high - it would have been easy for my post to be ignored completely, but it was not. I appreciate that my suggestion was given considered thought by so many and it is quite obviously not the wish of the community that it be taken up. I stand humbled.
posted by dg at 6:48 PM on July 24, 2002
Businesses don't hold their staff meetings in public and that this the way that I view MeTa - a place where members can talk without being under the gaze of the public
First off, read The Cluetrain Manifesto (yeah I know some of it is horseshit, but a good deal of it is the truth).
Seriously, this site and community would not be what it is today if I were less open about things, less open about what I think of the place and how I do things. Brutal honesty is the only way I do things. Even if this site was a serious business, I wouldn't operate it in a traditional sense. Look at Pyra, Userland, and any of the other weblog tool companies. You can read personal sites done by the CEO fully disclosing what they are reading, thinking about, and watching on tv. Everyone knows about their ups and downs, and understands how the companies work and how users can help the companies out directly.
MetaTalk was created to get rid of the editorializing that was taking place on metafilter, and providing a place to report bugs and allow users to help other users out with problems related to metafilter. Anyone is also open to criticize my actions on the site or post their support. Open is good, there's no shame in what has gone on here in the past.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 6:50 PM on July 24, 2002
First off, read The Cluetrain Manifesto (yeah I know some of it is horseshit, but a good deal of it is the truth).
Seriously, this site and community would not be what it is today if I were less open about things, less open about what I think of the place and how I do things. Brutal honesty is the only way I do things. Even if this site was a serious business, I wouldn't operate it in a traditional sense. Look at Pyra, Userland, and any of the other weblog tool companies. You can read personal sites done by the CEO fully disclosing what they are reading, thinking about, and watching on tv. Everyone knows about their ups and downs, and understands how the companies work and how users can help the companies out directly.
MetaTalk was created to get rid of the editorializing that was taking place on metafilter, and providing a place to report bugs and allow users to help other users out with problems related to metafilter. Anyone is also open to criticize my actions on the site or post their support. Open is good, there's no shame in what has gone on here in the past.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 6:50 PM on July 24, 2002
That says it all, Matt.
posted by dash_slot- at 7:04 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by dash_slot- at 7:04 PM on July 24, 2002
Don't be humbled, dg. Your post has made for a great thread. I learned a lot from it.
posted by timeistight at 7:07 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by timeistight at 7:07 PM on July 24, 2002
MeTa being visible does show the ugly side sometimes, but it also shows that there isn't necessarily approval of some of the dumb crap that happens in MeFi, either. And everybody gets to see that stuff(Palestine thread, anyone?).
Another good point.
MeTa being private wouldn't have shielded him. He's a member.
My point at the time was not to shield him, but to shield others from the attitude displayed. See above, however.
mathowie - points taken and I have bookmarked The Cluetrain Manifesto for later reading. I was sent that line-marking photo years ago by e-mail and felt at the time that it was symbolic of many aspects of business. Always wondered where it came from.
It seems that I have a lot to learn about being a part of an on-line community. I look forward to the lessons.
posted by dg at 7:07 PM on July 24, 2002
Another good point.
MeTa being private wouldn't have shielded him. He's a member.
My point at the time was not to shield him, but to shield others from the attitude displayed. See above, however.
mathowie - points taken and I have bookmarked The Cluetrain Manifesto for later reading. I was sent that line-marking photo years ago by e-mail and felt at the time that it was symbolic of many aspects of business. Always wondered where it came from.
It seems that I have a lot to learn about being a part of an on-line community. I look forward to the lessons.
posted by dg at 7:07 PM on July 24, 2002
*pins a medal on dg and embraces him in best Peronist fashion, signalling with ankle for band to start playing "Living La Meta Loca".
posted by MiguelCardoso at 7:13 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by MiguelCardoso at 7:13 PM on July 24, 2002
Miguel, you crack me up.
posted by timeistight at 8:24 PM on July 24, 2002
posted by timeistight at 8:24 PM on July 24, 2002
I love's a good hangin' me.
Personally I have not seen that many miscarriages of justice. Most lynchings were self-induced via many a knob-head comment.
posted by johnnyboy at 7:53 AM on July 25, 2002
Personally I have not seen that many miscarriages of justice. Most lynchings were self-induced via many a knob-head comment.
posted by johnnyboy at 7:53 AM on July 25, 2002
I lurked on metafilter for a long time before I figured out how to join. I didn't read metatalk at all before that; it just seemed like a private place, and the issues raised here seemed uninteresting if one wasn't submitting posts, or having anything to do with the content.
something like the trackback thingy would be neat, though, that indicated on the front page of metafilter that a post was being discussed in metatalk.
posted by interrobang at 9:41 AM on July 25, 2002
something like the trackback thingy would be neat, though, that indicated on the front page of metafilter that a post was being discussed in metatalk.
posted by interrobang at 9:41 AM on July 25, 2002
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
oh yeah. That's just what we need. More honesty in metatalk.
posted by crunchland at 4:56 PM on July 24, 2002