What Should We Learn from Reddit? June 14, 2023 8:52 AM Subscribe
It seems obvious from site activity over the beginning of the week that much of the reduction in participation here is due to attrition to reddit. I am hoping to have a friendly thread about what people LIKE about reddit and what it gets right that MetaFilter could learn from. We’ve had plenty of threads about what people don’t like about Reddit, and I ask that people respectfully understand that’s not the purpose of this thread. Lots of mefites are back for the first time in a long time, and it’s wonderful! What can we tweak so that we become Internet Home again? The increased activity on the front page has been invigorating.
User blocking/muting and having more than 1 page for everything. Oh, and the ability to self-delete comments. I like having conversations in the moment with personal information that can self-destruct so that it won't later be used for doxxing purposes.
posted by hwyengr at 9:28 AM on June 14, 2023 [39 favorites]
posted by hwyengr at 9:28 AM on June 14, 2023 [39 favorites]
The only reason I use Reddit is for niche crafting communities. I don't think that Metafilter can replace that, especially considering that sharing photos of finished work is a significant need of these communities.
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:28 AM on June 14, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:28 AM on June 14, 2023 [36 favorites]
::Looks over shoulder at triple-locked, heavily-battered door marked "THREADED COMMENTS ON METAFILTER?"::
Nah, better not open that again.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:42 AM on June 14, 2023 [42 favorites]
Nah, better not open that again.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:42 AM on June 14, 2023 [42 favorites]
Every time somebody asks "What does (POPULAR WEBSITE) do better than Metafilter?" I have the same answer:
In 2023, pretty much every other forum on the web lets me curate my experience in some way. On Twitter and Facebook, I can mute or block people who cause me unhappiness. On Reddit, even better, I can only subscribe to the subreddits that make me happy. Even a clunky BBS-type site will usually have some mechanism for letting me focus more on the threads I want to read.
But on Metafilter, the only way a user can stop seeing content they don't like is to grump at people who post it. I feel like that's a constant, insufficiently acknowledged source of user unhappiness here.
(To be clear, I recognize that adding some sort of self-curating feature would require a major recode to Metafilter. I know there aren't currently the resources for that and I don't want to add to the huge amount of work that's going on. But if we're brainstorming for long-term improvements that would help retain users... I think that's a big one.)
posted by yankeefog at 9:55 AM on June 14, 2023 [53 favorites]
In 2023, pretty much every other forum on the web lets me curate my experience in some way. On Twitter and Facebook, I can mute or block people who cause me unhappiness. On Reddit, even better, I can only subscribe to the subreddits that make me happy. Even a clunky BBS-type site will usually have some mechanism for letting me focus more on the threads I want to read.
But on Metafilter, the only way a user can stop seeing content they don't like is to grump at people who post it. I feel like that's a constant, insufficiently acknowledged source of user unhappiness here.
(To be clear, I recognize that adding some sort of self-curating feature would require a major recode to Metafilter. I know there aren't currently the resources for that and I don't want to add to the huge amount of work that's going on. But if we're brainstorming for long-term improvements that would help retain users... I think that's a big one.)
posted by yankeefog at 9:55 AM on June 14, 2023 [53 favorites]
Oh, and just to revive my suggestion for a form of curation that doesn't require any new coding:
I would love for it to become standard, when making an FPP, to provide brief guidance on the rules for that particular thread. Like, "This is an all-complaints-welcome thread. Feel free to vent about X." Or "This is a positive-comments-only thread. If you don't like X, please just skip this one."
posted by yankeefog at 9:58 AM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
I would love for it to become standard, when making an FPP, to provide brief guidance on the rules for that particular thread. Like, "This is an all-complaints-welcome thread. Feel free to vent about X." Or "This is a positive-comments-only thread. If you don't like X, please just skip this one."
posted by yankeefog at 9:58 AM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
What should we learn from Reddit?
That we have a vibrant, open community (of actual living humans) here and from what I'm seeing these days that's getting rarer and rarer. It's easy to point a finger and say that Reddit is the rotten core of the internet, yet I can't help but feel that it's more of a reflection of our society on the whole.
Bigotry and hate just don't fly here. Sure, there have been abortive takeoffs, but from what I can tell there isn't a hidden/not hidden group of horrible people with horrible ideas and beliefs that is tacitly endorsed by the C-levels. Excepting of course, FanFare.
I feel like MeFi stands out by being both user-driven and not drowned in memes and 'promoted' ads for reprehensible things, the overwhelming feeling is get from here is the sense of maturity, of respect and tolerance that is getting harder and harder to find. In a global society where everybody seems to be one tiny step from losing their cool, Metafilter is a sanctuary.
posted by Sphinx at 10:08 AM on June 14, 2023 [60 favorites]
That we have a vibrant, open community (of actual living humans) here and from what I'm seeing these days that's getting rarer and rarer. It's easy to point a finger and say that Reddit is the rotten core of the internet, yet I can't help but feel that it's more of a reflection of our society on the whole.
Bigotry and hate just don't fly here. Sure, there have been abortive takeoffs, but from what I can tell there isn't a hidden/not hidden group of horrible people with horrible ideas and beliefs that is tacitly endorsed by the C-levels. Excepting of course, FanFare.
I feel like MeFi stands out by being both user-driven and not drowned in memes and 'promoted' ads for reprehensible things, the overwhelming feeling is get from here is the sense of maturity, of respect and tolerance that is getting harder and harder to find. In a global society where everybody seems to be one tiny step from losing their cool, Metafilter is a sanctuary.
posted by Sphinx at 10:08 AM on June 14, 2023 [60 favorites]
I think that the real lesson is that professional moderators, supported by internal tools, and subject to community accountability is a vastly superior model to Reddit. I personally believe that we should be looking for a new software platform that incorporates many of the high-demand UI features of the modern internet, but not at the expense of sacrificing the moderation model.
posted by briank at 10:18 AM on June 14, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by briank at 10:18 AM on June 14, 2023 [29 favorites]
Oh, and the ability to self-delete comments.
Yes x a million. During one of the major site discussions a few years ago I got the strong impression that the site intended to implement this and I actively expected it to be rolled out in the coming year and kept posting here with that understanding; at some point I realized that either I had misunderstood or it just wasn't happening for some other reason.
Either way I think it's more relevant than ever today, and the current 'contact mods about specific comments to be deleted' really doesn't cut it when you have a long comment history to go through; there's also a lot of process friction there which may be by intent. But in practice it amounts to either leaving everything up or deleting everything, and I have been considering the latter pretty strongly. I'd really rather have a third option.
The only reason I use Reddit is for niche crafting communities. I don't think that Metafilter can replace that, especially considering that sharing photos of finished work is a significant need of these communities.
The Music subsite is built around uploading music files here. In theory it would be awesome to let Projects posts include uploads of pictures (and to revamp Projects to make it more discussion-centered, for example by having the thread titles link to the actual thread like every other subsite...)
Other than that, I think the main thing this business brings up is that community exoduses are a thing that happens occasionally and it could be good to have a plan for putting MF out there as an alternative when it happens.
I do feel that tastes are very individual, and the fact that some people like reddit's UX more doesn't mean that most MF users do. (I really, really don't and honestly boggle at people who think reddit feels more usable or intuitive, on any platform.) So I think it's fine not to appeal to everyone; but I do also think, like the OP, that there are some things MF could consider.
posted by trig at 10:36 AM on June 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yes x a million. During one of the major site discussions a few years ago I got the strong impression that the site intended to implement this and I actively expected it to be rolled out in the coming year and kept posting here with that understanding; at some point I realized that either I had misunderstood or it just wasn't happening for some other reason.
Either way I think it's more relevant than ever today, and the current 'contact mods about specific comments to be deleted' really doesn't cut it when you have a long comment history to go through; there's also a lot of process friction there which may be by intent. But in practice it amounts to either leaving everything up or deleting everything, and I have been considering the latter pretty strongly. I'd really rather have a third option.
The only reason I use Reddit is for niche crafting communities. I don't think that Metafilter can replace that, especially considering that sharing photos of finished work is a significant need of these communities.
The Music subsite is built around uploading music files here. In theory it would be awesome to let Projects posts include uploads of pictures (and to revamp Projects to make it more discussion-centered, for example by having the thread titles link to the actual thread like every other subsite...)
Other than that, I think the main thing this business brings up is that community exoduses are a thing that happens occasionally and it could be good to have a plan for putting MF out there as an alternative when it happens.
I do feel that tastes are very individual, and the fact that some people like reddit's UX more doesn't mean that most MF users do. (I really, really don't and honestly boggle at people who think reddit feels more usable or intuitive, on any platform.) So I think it's fine not to appeal to everyone; but I do also think, like the OP, that there are some things MF could consider.
posted by trig at 10:36 AM on June 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
At the same time, there’s a whole bunch of cases where members of oppressed communities have reported suboptimal treatment by our mods. I am on mobile right now so I can’t link the receipts directly, but mollyrealized and odinsdream come to mind immediately, and there were big metatalk threads on both that are findable.
I’ve definitely seen individual subreddits handle this better than Metafilter has, and I think we ignore that at our peril.
posted by Alterscape at 10:37 AM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
I’ve definitely seen individual subreddits handle this better than Metafilter has, and I think we ignore that at our peril.
posted by Alterscape at 10:37 AM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
In 2023, pretty much every other forum on the web lets me curate my experience in some way. On Twitter and Facebook, I can mute or block people who cause me unhappiness. On Reddit, even better, I can only subscribe to the subreddits that make me happy. Even a clunky BBS-type site will usually have some mechanism for letting me focus more on the threads I want to read.
But on Metafilter, the only way a user can stop seeing content they don't like is to grump at people who post it. I feel like that's a constant, insufficiently acknowledged source of user unhappiness here.
One way to address this would be to make the My Mefi tab the default view for logged in users and to highlight that it exists.
The My Mefi tab, on the top right of your home page, gives you the options to hide posts with certain tags. So, for me, I find posts about climate change very depressing and don't want to see them, so I hide anything marked as climatechange.
But it is pretty non-obvious that this tool exists--the preferences page where you mark tags to hide is completely separate from the regular preferences page, and name My Mefi doesn't really communicate what the page does IMO.
posted by JDHarper at 10:40 AM on June 14, 2023 [20 favorites]
But on Metafilter, the only way a user can stop seeing content they don't like is to grump at people who post it. I feel like that's a constant, insufficiently acknowledged source of user unhappiness here.
One way to address this would be to make the My Mefi tab the default view for logged in users and to highlight that it exists.
The My Mefi tab, on the top right of your home page, gives you the options to hide posts with certain tags. So, for me, I find posts about climate change very depressing and don't want to see them, so I hide anything marked as climatechange.
But it is pretty non-obvious that this tool exists--the preferences page where you mark tags to hide is completely separate from the regular preferences page, and name My Mefi doesn't really communicate what the page does IMO.
posted by JDHarper at 10:40 AM on June 14, 2023 [20 favorites]
They serve two completely different purposes for me.
MeFi is like a tiny, well-curated neighborhood bookstore. I come here precisely because I don't know what I'm going to find every time. The front page is driven entirely by people's individual interests and curiosities and tastes, and it's all available, buffet-style, organized purely chronologically. And even when I'm not particularly interested in the topic at hand, I enjoy observing the community's conversations around that thing.
Reddit is more like a public library, where I can drill way down on a specific topic/community and get a variety of approaches and viewpoints, from granular to panoramic. And while I can search MeFi and hope to find one or two posts germane to whatever that may be, I can go to Reddit and find years' worth of community information to draw on.
As such, I don't think there's anything MeFi can or should do to become more like Reddit, because they differ from one another constitutionally. There is zero overlap in their utility for me personally.
posted by mykescipark at 10:43 AM on June 14, 2023 [120 favorites]
MeFi is like a tiny, well-curated neighborhood bookstore. I come here precisely because I don't know what I'm going to find every time. The front page is driven entirely by people's individual interests and curiosities and tastes, and it's all available, buffet-style, organized purely chronologically. And even when I'm not particularly interested in the topic at hand, I enjoy observing the community's conversations around that thing.
Reddit is more like a public library, where I can drill way down on a specific topic/community and get a variety of approaches and viewpoints, from granular to panoramic. And while I can search MeFi and hope to find one or two posts germane to whatever that may be, I can go to Reddit and find years' worth of community information to draw on.
As such, I don't think there's anything MeFi can or should do to become more like Reddit, because they differ from one another constitutionally. There is zero overlap in their utility for me personally.
posted by mykescipark at 10:43 AM on June 14, 2023 [120 favorites]
For many things, Metafilter doesn’t seem to have enough active users to support discussion. For example, a few popular shows have great discussion in FanFare, but many or most don’t have enough participation to have any real discussion.
posted by snofoam at 10:46 AM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 10:46 AM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
The idea about self-deleting comments actually strikes me as a problem, because it has the potential for misuse.
What I mean is: suppose I were able to self-delete comments. Then I could go into any thread and post some vicious attack against another person - but then delete it after 15 minutes. So the other person would see it, but when the mods finally checked on things, it'd be gone and I'd be sitting there innocently like "what? I didn't say anything."
Presumably the mods would be able to see the deletion and the original comment, but - then that paints a huge target on the mods' back because if they disciplined me they'd have to say nothing more than "you know what you did," and people who hadn't seen the comment would be hounding them asking what I said or accusing the mods of having a vendetta against me, and...
And, yeah, I think the mods have plenty enough to worry about as it is.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:13 AM on June 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
What I mean is: suppose I were able to self-delete comments. Then I could go into any thread and post some vicious attack against another person - but then delete it after 15 minutes. So the other person would see it, but when the mods finally checked on things, it'd be gone and I'd be sitting there innocently like "what? I didn't say anything."
Presumably the mods would be able to see the deletion and the original comment, but - then that paints a huge target on the mods' back because if they disciplined me they'd have to say nothing more than "you know what you did," and people who hadn't seen the comment would be hounding them asking what I said or accusing the mods of having a vendetta against me, and...
And, yeah, I think the mods have plenty enough to worry about as it is.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:13 AM on June 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
(I think there are a lot of ways around that - and also that you could make the same argument about the edit window. As it is, this is functionality that exists in plenty of places, so it's not some giant unknown or unsolved problem.)
posted by trig at 11:33 AM on June 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by trig at 11:33 AM on June 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
The My Mefi tab, on the top right of your home page, gives you the options to hide posts with certain tags.
This has always been an oddly implemented feature. This page can either be a list of every post except ones with blocked tags, OR a list of only posts with one or more of your favorite tags, but not both. I use it to filter for AskMe questions I might be qualified to answer, which means that it would not be possible to use it to block tags, nor can I use it to filter for posts on the Blue that I might find interesting, except where the topics overlap with the ones I set up for AskMe.
posted by yuwtze at 12:02 PM on June 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
This has always been an oddly implemented feature. This page can either be a list of every post except ones with blocked tags, OR a list of only posts with one or more of your favorite tags, but not both. I use it to filter for AskMe questions I might be qualified to answer, which means that it would not be possible to use it to block tags, nor can I use it to filter for posts on the Blue that I might find interesting, except where the topics overlap with the ones I set up for AskMe.
posted by yuwtze at 12:02 PM on June 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
As it is, this is functionality that exists in plenty of places,
This reminds me of an argument I have with a buddy about various maladies that only affect the US and aren't present in the rest of the world.
"But how could $RightWingHobbyhorse control even be implemented?!?!", he says.
"The same way Holland does it," is always my response.
posted by hwyengr at 12:09 PM on June 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
This reminds me of an argument I have with a buddy about various maladies that only affect the US and aren't present in the rest of the world.
"But how could $RightWingHobbyhorse control even be implemented?!?!", he says.
"The same way Holland does it," is always my response.
posted by hwyengr at 12:09 PM on June 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
(I think there are a lot of ways around that - and also that you could make the same argument about the edit window.
Yeah, but with the edit window there is at least something left behind for the mods to point to. there's a difference between:
"EC, that wasn't cool, you changed your comment and took out the bit where you called Trig a 'silly English ke-niggit'."
and
"EC, that wasn't cool. You know what we mean."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:24 PM on June 14, 2023
Yeah, but with the edit window there is at least something left behind for the mods to point to. there's a difference between:
"EC, that wasn't cool, you changed your comment and took out the bit where you called Trig a 'silly English ke-niggit'."
and
"EC, that wasn't cool. You know what we mean."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:24 PM on June 14, 2023
Honestly: I think the existence/health of really good subreddits illustrates that, if you have a pretty strong community, most of the worst-case scenarios around misuse of functionality (like a block or self-deleting) don't wreck havoc on things. I've generally been skeptical of these features but increasingly I think it'd be totally fine if Metafilter added them, especially if it helps us maintain or, dare I say, grow the site and community. Will somebody misuse them? Probably? Will that be a huge problem? I honestly don't think so.
posted by Tomorrowful at 12:40 PM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Tomorrowful at 12:40 PM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Agreed, and also I'm not sure why in the scenario above the mods can quote text that was edited out but not quote text that was deleted. But regardless, this is not a thing that's never been done before and there are lots of ways these problems have been addressed elsewhere and could be addressed here. (Some potential approaches, like non-invisible comment deletions - which reddit uses - have also been proposed here before for other reasons like transparency.)
Anyway, this is probably less a thread for hashing out hypothetical implementation issues than one for raising ideas :-)
posted by trig at 12:54 PM on June 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anyway, this is probably less a thread for hashing out hypothetical implementation issues than one for raising ideas :-)
posted by trig at 12:54 PM on June 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I also should take this opportunity to say that I think reddit shows that while massive dependence on volunteer labor poses a big risk to a company as a company, it doesn't necessarily mean awful things for the community. While the current events on reddit make me pessimistic that Reddit (the company) will learn anything from this experience, the high level of solidarity shown by the mods and many power users of reddit honestly makes me feel better about the strength and resilience of communities as distinct from the companies that depend on them.
More than anything else, this experience makes me value metafilter even more, and makes me badly hope we here can find a way to grow the community and not be too afraid of change if it means survival. If I could snap my fingers and get back "metafilter before google stomped on the ad revenue," I would. But I can't. And I'd rather live in a world with a changed but healthy metafilter, than one without it at all.
posted by Tomorrowful at 1:09 PM on June 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
More than anything else, this experience makes me value metafilter even more, and makes me badly hope we here can find a way to grow the community and not be too afraid of change if it means survival. If I could snap my fingers and get back "metafilter before google stomped on the ad revenue," I would. But I can't. And I'd rather live in a world with a changed but healthy metafilter, than one without it at all.
posted by Tomorrowful at 1:09 PM on June 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Threaded comments and the ability for users to self-delete their content.
I was strongly against threaded comments on Metafilter for years and am a fresh convert after seeing how easy posts can be derailed by a single user. In a perfect world I’d love to see the site test it out on MetaTalk posts first and see how that goes.
Users being in control of their own content always seemed like a no-brainer to me. There’s a lot of different ways this could be implemented but I feel like that level of nitpicking goes beyond the point of this thread.
posted by Diskeater at 1:09 PM on June 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
I was strongly against threaded comments on Metafilter for years and am a fresh convert after seeing how easy posts can be derailed by a single user. In a perfect world I’d love to see the site test it out on MetaTalk posts first and see how that goes.
Users being in control of their own content always seemed like a no-brainer to me. There’s a lot of different ways this could be implemented but I feel like that level of nitpicking goes beyond the point of this thread.
posted by Diskeater at 1:09 PM on June 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Oh and make a private 'bookmark this comment / post' button and treat Favorites as the public upvote they really are instead of this nebulous "some people use Favorites as bookmarks, some don't" thing it is now.
posted by Diskeater at 1:30 PM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Diskeater at 1:30 PM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
I like the niche subs/communities. Our Flag Means Death, Gen-X, Trader Joe's, Princess Kate, Crafts, I can't remember all the subs I'm subbed to. I can get a one-stop fix of any flavor on my most loved things in this world.
I like the ridiculous amount of constant, rapid-fire content. I must consume copious amounts of imagery and data all day every day for 8 hours or I'll lose my mind (I have a lonely "seat-warmer" desk-job). I feel like I can see millions of things, from words to pictures to memes to helpful hints to ideas.
The sheer size of the site and number of users allows me to be mostly invisible.
I like that it's got a white background, I don't care for "dark mode" or whatever colored web pages are called. I like a boring, old-school, black type on a white screen.
One big difference for me though, I don't think I'd ever attend a Reddit meet-up in real life, even if it was around the corner from my house. I "trust" the Mefites though. Been to a few MeFi meet-ups many years ago. I inherently trusted those people. Like I would never get in a car with strangers from Reddit like I did with MeFites back in the day.
I'm sad all of the people I knew and liked on MeFi and MetaChat all those years ago seem to be gone, I'm not surprised as I kind of disappeared too (my last MeFi log in was 2017), but still sad.
posted by goml at 1:35 PM on June 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
I like the ridiculous amount of constant, rapid-fire content. I must consume copious amounts of imagery and data all day every day for 8 hours or I'll lose my mind (I have a lonely "seat-warmer" desk-job). I feel like I can see millions of things, from words to pictures to memes to helpful hints to ideas.
The sheer size of the site and number of users allows me to be mostly invisible.
I like that it's got a white background, I don't care for "dark mode" or whatever colored web pages are called. I like a boring, old-school, black type on a white screen.
One big difference for me though, I don't think I'd ever attend a Reddit meet-up in real life, even if it was around the corner from my house. I "trust" the Mefites though. Been to a few MeFi meet-ups many years ago. I inherently trusted those people. Like I would never get in a car with strangers from Reddit like I did with MeFites back in the day.
I'm sad all of the people I knew and liked on MeFi and MetaChat all those years ago seem to be gone, I'm not surprised as I kind of disappeared too (my last MeFi log in was 2017), but still sad.
posted by goml at 1:35 PM on June 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
I love Reddit’s anonymous up- and downvotes. It allows people to register agreement or disagreement without it seeming personal.
posted by corey flood at 1:40 PM on June 14, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by corey flood at 1:40 PM on June 14, 2023 [26 favorites]
The best subreddit is r/witchesvspatriarchy and I like the posts that are just like "I like my hair today please say nice things to me" and everyone says nice things. It's the only feature on reddit that I think metafilter could use.
Since they're still private in protest we will all just have to wait for this to return.
posted by phunniemee at 1:42 PM on June 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Since they're still private in protest we will all just have to wait for this to return.
posted by phunniemee at 1:42 PM on June 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Allowing much more back and forth in AskMe. There were historical reasons to limit it but now it's just a very weird rule that keeps people from actually participating or getting the answers they need.
posted by lapis at 1:48 PM on June 14, 2023 [30 favorites]
posted by lapis at 1:48 PM on June 14, 2023 [30 favorites]
And being looser about deleting "chat" in general. Reddit has a lot of back-and-forth and I generally don't feel like someone is going to yell at me or delete my comment for acting like it's a community conversation as opposed to a tightly controlled deposition.
posted by lapis at 1:50 PM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by lapis at 1:50 PM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
Speaking just for myself as a regular user and not as a mod:
What can we tweak so that we become Internet Home again?
Do we want to be Internet Home? That's an important question in the sense of do we want the site to be generic internet home or a more specific type of home?
I lean towards the latter in terms of hoping/wishing that Metafilter becomes/remains a site that attracts and publishes smart, interesting, and fun content from a range of views that respect and desire a range of views. In short, the bar/backyard/home that people gravitate towards for good and interesting content.
Reddit as a whole doesn't seem to be that, but particular sub-reddits are and it's worth looking closer at those to see what we can emulate.
Things like:
Images. I don't think images have to be in every thread, but it would be great to have some threads where images are specifically sanctioned and even invited. The weekly free threads might be a way to go with this.
Threaded comments. Limited to one or two levels for side conversations. I'm not totally sold on this, but I'm not not sold, you know? Worth experimenting with.
Blocking another user. Not a total block, but having a blocked users comments appear as grey or faded text, so it's easier to skip them.
MAYBE more chatfilter on AskMe. Being able to ask weird and off the wall questions would be great, but I wouldn’t want to dilute the AskMe brand of being able to get straighter answers to straight questions. But I might be overthinking this.
Buttons to make lists and block quotes. Today's internet is used to having links to easily implement html features. A person shouldn't need to know when and how to write block quote by hand.
Otherwise, comparing Reddit and Mefi is odd, as the former is specifically designed to attract any and everyone, so they can host their own sub communities and bring in money for the owners.
Metafilter is, more or less, like a dive bar or coffee house where people wander in and out out various conversations and activities. Doesn't mean Mefi can't learn a few things from Reddit, but it's important to remember they are different. Trying to strictly emulate a Reddit feature isn't the way to go, it'll require a bit of thought to incorporate any features.
Again, just my personal thoughts, shouldn't be taken as any sort of official moderation view/decision/hope/view
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:05 PM on June 14, 2023 [26 favorites]
What can we tweak so that we become Internet Home again?
Do we want to be Internet Home? That's an important question in the sense of do we want the site to be generic internet home or a more specific type of home?
I lean towards the latter in terms of hoping/wishing that Metafilter becomes/remains a site that attracts and publishes smart, interesting, and fun content from a range of views that respect and desire a range of views. In short, the bar/backyard/home that people gravitate towards for good and interesting content.
Reddit as a whole doesn't seem to be that, but particular sub-reddits are and it's worth looking closer at those to see what we can emulate.
Things like:
Images. I don't think images have to be in every thread, but it would be great to have some threads where images are specifically sanctioned and even invited. The weekly free threads might be a way to go with this.
Threaded comments. Limited to one or two levels for side conversations. I'm not totally sold on this, but I'm not not sold, you know? Worth experimenting with.
Blocking another user. Not a total block, but having a blocked users comments appear as grey or faded text, so it's easier to skip them.
MAYBE more chatfilter on AskMe. Being able to ask weird and off the wall questions would be great, but I wouldn’t want to dilute the AskMe brand of being able to get straighter answers to straight questions. But I might be overthinking this.
Buttons to make lists and block quotes. Today's internet is used to having links to easily implement html features. A person shouldn't need to know when and how to write block quote by hand.
Otherwise, comparing Reddit and Mefi is odd, as the former is specifically designed to attract any and everyone, so they can host their own sub communities and bring in money for the owners.
Metafilter is, more or less, like a dive bar or coffee house where people wander in and out out various conversations and activities. Doesn't mean Mefi can't learn a few things from Reddit, but it's important to remember they are different. Trying to strictly emulate a Reddit feature isn't the way to go, it'll require a bit of thought to incorporate any features.
Again, just my personal thoughts, shouldn't be taken as any sort of official moderation view/decision/hope/view
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:05 PM on June 14, 2023 [26 favorites]
I like a boring, old-school, black type on a white screen.
Same! And just so you know, that is an option here on MeFi. The default colors are, I agree... kinda colorful.
It has been nice to get to hang out on the socials and be like "Well yes, we pay our mods. And yes, sometimes the site can skew cranky or arcane or opaque but there are zero Nazis."
I mean, that may be overly chirpy, MeFi certainly has places where it could be doing better (and paying moderators has downsides in terms of sustainability as much as I am proud to be a site with paid moderators) but as a part of the old web that still mostly works and hasn't been run into the ground by a billionaire, I think it's doing okay.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:21 PM on June 14, 2023 [41 favorites]
Same! And just so you know, that is an option here on MeFi. The default colors are, I agree... kinda colorful.
It has been nice to get to hang out on the socials and be like "Well yes, we pay our mods. And yes, sometimes the site can skew cranky or arcane or opaque but there are zero Nazis."
I mean, that may be overly chirpy, MeFi certainly has places where it could be doing better (and paying moderators has downsides in terms of sustainability as much as I am proud to be a site with paid moderators) but as a part of the old web that still mostly works and hasn't been run into the ground by a billionaire, I think it's doing okay.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:21 PM on June 14, 2023 [41 favorites]
Really loathe the idea of self-deleting comments. That's for low-engagement/memory hole sites. If I can't trust that the thing I'm spending a half hour thoughtfully replying to is even going to be there tomorrow because someone has second thoughts, why would I even do that? Would a person then get to have a say over my comments being deleted, because it refers to theirs? What if I quote theirs? How much control over my writing does someone else have? Where's that line? This isn't a dealbreaker, mind you, but that so fundamentally changes the tenor of the site that it goes way beyond "can we technically do this with this code."
And if that level of thoughtfulness isn't worth it, then I don't know what Metafilter would even be. Not every thing has to be for every person and their every thought. Maybe there are some things you just don't share on Metafilter; that seems okay.
posted by curious nu at 2:36 PM on June 14, 2023 [32 favorites]
And if that level of thoughtfulness isn't worth it, then I don't know what Metafilter would even be. Not every thing has to be for every person and their every thought. Maybe there are some things you just don't share on Metafilter; that seems okay.
posted by curious nu at 2:36 PM on June 14, 2023 [32 favorites]
+1 for threaded comments (and ideally, with the ability to collapse the thread to get to the next one more easily). I think that will make the moderator burden less. No more "deleted as derail" actions would be needed (with the attendant hurt feelings) for one thing.
To use a recent example, there was a metatalk thread after a recent fundraiser. The comments started off as celebrating the recent success, and then one person (I'm not looking it up, this is not intended to call out that person) posted a ranty complaint that killed the mood for the whole thread and made it all about them. In a threaded conversation, that would have spun off into its own little side discussion, instead of forcing everyone into one conversation.
That was the example that sticks out to me most recently, but you see less intense versions of it all the time. I think single-thread comments made sense historically, but at this point I think people are used to the idea and it would solve a lot of problems.
posted by JDHarper at 2:37 PM on June 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
To use a recent example, there was a metatalk thread after a recent fundraiser. The comments started off as celebrating the recent success, and then one person (I'm not looking it up, this is not intended to call out that person) posted a ranty complaint that killed the mood for the whole thread and made it all about them. In a threaded conversation, that would have spun off into its own little side discussion, instead of forcing everyone into one conversation.
That was the example that sticks out to me most recently, but you see less intense versions of it all the time. I think single-thread comments made sense historically, but at this point I think people are used to the idea and it would solve a lot of problems.
posted by JDHarper at 2:37 PM on June 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
I know that opinions on Reddit's UI and general vibe and culture are varied, but for me, what I like about Metafilter is that I could never, ever, ever confuse any aspect of this place for Reddit. What I like is the extreme un-Reddit-like-ness of Metafilter.
But to the OP's question more specifically: I'm not sure what UI changes would be good here, but in broadest terms the ability to really rabbit-hole yourself into a specific community of interest is something Reddit does well. I know I have had the experience of submitting a particularly niche AskMe here and there that gets one, two, three answers. Usually these are questions where I would have got more answers ten years ago, and that this is mostly about reduced site usage overall. But I also occasionally go perusing old AskMe's and find a similarly niche question and would have had a useful answer if I'd come across it when it was posted.
So, something that bridges that gap, whether it's a more prominent hashtag-subscription interface, or some kind of alert sidebar, again, I'm not a UI guy, I don't know. But something that brings the used cast iron refurbishment people all together, and the red panda enthusiasts all together, and the Sheryl Crow fans, furniture restorers, Oneida silverware historians. Again, I'm not suggesting a sub-based site redesign that makes MeFi more like Reddit, but just some kind of interstitial tissue that brings together some of the more niche interests on the green and the blue.
posted by kensington314 at 2:47 PM on June 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
But to the OP's question more specifically: I'm not sure what UI changes would be good here, but in broadest terms the ability to really rabbit-hole yourself into a specific community of interest is something Reddit does well. I know I have had the experience of submitting a particularly niche AskMe here and there that gets one, two, three answers. Usually these are questions where I would have got more answers ten years ago, and that this is mostly about reduced site usage overall. But I also occasionally go perusing old AskMe's and find a similarly niche question and would have had a useful answer if I'd come across it when it was posted.
So, something that bridges that gap, whether it's a more prominent hashtag-subscription interface, or some kind of alert sidebar, again, I'm not a UI guy, I don't know. But something that brings the used cast iron refurbishment people all together, and the red panda enthusiasts all together, and the Sheryl Crow fans, furniture restorers, Oneida silverware historians. Again, I'm not suggesting a sub-based site redesign that makes MeFi more like Reddit, but just some kind of interstitial tissue that brings together some of the more niche interests on the green and the blue.
posted by kensington314 at 2:47 PM on June 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I will die on the hill of threaded comments are bad, actually, even if for no other reason than if I do a hyper contextual joke late on the scene I want you all to be forced to endure it.
Just as I wish to endure all of yours. As it was and ever shall be.
posted by phunniemee at 2:48 PM on June 14, 2023 [29 favorites]
Just as I wish to endure all of yours. As it was and ever shall be.
posted by phunniemee at 2:48 PM on June 14, 2023 [29 favorites]
I enjoy being able to participate in a conversation on a silly mainstream topic without someone crashing through the door and slinging judgements or creating a barely-on-topic comment strictly to shoehorn in their Life's Crusade Against/For XYZ.
More than anything, I strongly desire an easy reply option that allows me to highlight part of someone's comment, hit a reply button that's right beneath that comment, and boom...craft my reply with the highlighted text featured. Without having to scroll up and down to add links to the comment (which is nice to do since we don't thread comments, which okay) and coding a blockquote with the portion of the comment I want to highlight in my reply. And I want to do that without installing a userscript because these features have been standard on forums for years and years now.
posted by kimberussell at 3:01 PM on June 14, 2023 [43 favorites]
More than anything, I strongly desire an easy reply option that allows me to highlight part of someone's comment, hit a reply button that's right beneath that comment, and boom...craft my reply with the highlighted text featured. Without having to scroll up and down to add links to the comment (which is nice to do since we don't thread comments, which okay) and coding a blockquote with the portion of the comment I want to highlight in my reply. And I want to do that without installing a userscript because these features have been standard on forums for years and years now.
posted by kimberussell at 3:01 PM on June 14, 2023 [43 favorites]
For me the only thing Reddit offers me that I prefer to here is the overall activity level.
But although I personally wouldn't need/use them much, I can certainly see utility in an easier-to-use interface for formatting or replying to specific text, adding images back into the site, and maybe making some of the MyMeFi interface stuff more robust/salient.
I would prefer not to see threaded comments here, or self-deletions beyond maybe a limited window like we have for editing now. I don't think experimenting with either would be the end of the world, though.
posted by Stacey at 3:44 PM on June 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
But although I personally wouldn't need/use them much, I can certainly see utility in an easier-to-use interface for formatting or replying to specific text, adding images back into the site, and maybe making some of the MyMeFi interface stuff more robust/salient.
I would prefer not to see threaded comments here, or self-deletions beyond maybe a limited window like we have for editing now. I don't think experimenting with either would be the end of the world, though.
posted by Stacey at 3:44 PM on June 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Metafilter doesn’t seem to have enough active users to support discussion
I’m not a huge Reddit person, but this seems like the difference in a nutshell. I only subscribe to two or three subs, but a lot of my Reddit usage is finding individual threads via search results. I’ll search for something pretty obscure, and not only will there be a sub about the topic, but it’ll have threads with dozens of replies. Doesn’t matter the topic. I could be looking for something about the aiming point of the running back in outside zone, and there are threads with 100 comments. I don’t know that there are 15 people here on Metafilter who even know what that means, let alone are able to talk knowledgeably about it. The small membership here really limits what’s available for discussion. It’s not unlike a small high school where there are only a couple of cliques.
posted by kevinbelt at 3:59 PM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
I’m not a huge Reddit person, but this seems like the difference in a nutshell. I only subscribe to two or three subs, but a lot of my Reddit usage is finding individual threads via search results. I’ll search for something pretty obscure, and not only will there be a sub about the topic, but it’ll have threads with dozens of replies. Doesn’t matter the topic. I could be looking for something about the aiming point of the running back in outside zone, and there are threads with 100 comments. I don’t know that there are 15 people here on Metafilter who even know what that means, let alone are able to talk knowledgeably about it. The small membership here really limits what’s available for discussion. It’s not unlike a small high school where there are only a couple of cliques.
posted by kevinbelt at 3:59 PM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
It's tough because the reddit core model is built around frivolity. And that's not a bad thing! Sometimes you just want to look at a series of silly cat pictures. Or Warhammer memes. Or whatever entirely low-stakes content you just want to sit around a goof about. I have a lot of sympathy for the people who have found loving, supportive communities on reddit, but the bones of the site are just users dicking around.
Reddit is built for that. Metafilter very much is not. Which is also not a bad thing! But the issue is more culture than design. There are places on reddit where I'd have been comfortable posting "I'd buy that for a dollar!" and been confident the joke would land. Outside of lucking into being the first one to a "same as in town" joke or something context-specific this place doesn't really favor wiseass off the cuff comments so much. Sure they happen, sure I've made them, but they aren't why anyone comes here.
So I really like the question of how much this place ought to look like reddit. There are some functionalities that I could get behind, but I see it as a "tread carefully" situation.
And one of the things I like about Metafilter is I can trust the admins to do exactly that.
posted by East14thTaco at 4:06 PM on June 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Reddit is built for that. Metafilter very much is not. Which is also not a bad thing! But the issue is more culture than design. There are places on reddit where I'd have been comfortable posting "I'd buy that for a dollar!" and been confident the joke would land. Outside of lucking into being the first one to a "same as in town" joke or something context-specific this place doesn't really favor wiseass off the cuff comments so much. Sure they happen, sure I've made them, but they aren't why anyone comes here.
So I really like the question of how much this place ought to look like reddit. There are some functionalities that I could get behind, but I see it as a "tread carefully" situation.
And one of the things I like about Metafilter is I can trust the admins to do exactly that.
posted by East14thTaco at 4:06 PM on June 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Thank you for this post, Bottlecap.
I can see ups and downs to various Reddit things here. Things I'd like to see:
+1 upvotes & downvotes. Prefer anonymous on both.
+1 button for bulleted lists
+1 button for block quotes
+1 muting or blocking individual users. I like the idea of the Firefox extension someone mentioned the other day that grays out text of individual users, but I'm often on mobile, or not using FF. I am wary of this idea, because I like to bump into contrary ideas, and MetaFilter has shifted my opinions about various things, but there's always that one person who's never going to work for you.
+1 uh... this is going to sound weird, but Reddit is full of angels and demons and seems to acknowledge that. MetaFilter seems on balance to think of itself as a good place (and I do agree on many, many counts), but I don't agree with Sphinx that "Bigotry and hate just don't fly here," actual Nazis aside. I presume we all have different ideas about which prejudices are allowed to flourish openly or secretly here, so I will not here bring out my personal axes for grinding, but I think it would be better if MetaFilter didn't lean quite so hard into "no bigotry here, unlike Reddit." That's more culture than code, but.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:12 PM on June 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
I can see ups and downs to various Reddit things here. Things I'd like to see:
+1 upvotes & downvotes. Prefer anonymous on both.
+1 button for bulleted lists
+1 button for block quotes
+1 muting or blocking individual users. I like the idea of the Firefox extension someone mentioned the other day that grays out text of individual users, but I'm often on mobile, or not using FF. I am wary of this idea, because I like to bump into contrary ideas, and MetaFilter has shifted my opinions about various things, but there's always that one person who's never going to work for you.
+1 uh... this is going to sound weird, but Reddit is full of angels and demons and seems to acknowledge that. MetaFilter seems on balance to think of itself as a good place (and I do agree on many, many counts), but I don't agree with Sphinx that "Bigotry and hate just don't fly here," actual Nazis aside. I presume we all have different ideas about which prejudices are allowed to flourish openly or secretly here, so I will not here bring out my personal axes for grinding, but I think it would be better if MetaFilter didn't lean quite so hard into "no bigotry here, unlike Reddit." That's more culture than code, but.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:12 PM on June 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
Metafilter is, more or less, like a dive bar or coffee house where people wander in and out out various conversations and activities. Doesn't mean Mefi can't learn a few things from Reddit, but it's important to remember they are different. Trying to strictly emulate a Reddit feature isn't the way to go, it'll require a bit of thought to incorporate any features.
This. I like dive bars and that intimate atmosphere is what makes MeFi somewhere I keep coming back to again and again. I like that I recognise people here from years ago and can slip back into conversations easily. But I also understand this is not the model some people feel comfortable in, if only because they have good reasons for wanting to be more anonymous.
Making MeFi more accessible to people that don't know how to use HTML (ie almost everyone these days) would reduce the clunkiness in the UI and get rid of some of the negative aspects that make it hard for people to eg respond to specific comments in a consistent way that could bring some of the benefits of threaded comments without actually threading comments (which, over my dead body etc) and make it clearer that someone is responding to a specific comment and maybe not trying to derail the whole coversation. I very much like that each thread is a single conversation rather than a large party with a dozen or a hundred small groups all having their own conversation on and around a topic. I very much like that the conversation is linear and chronological, although that does discourage the silliness that might take the heat out of some conversations.
The key difference for me (between MeFi and Reddit) is that MeFi takes effort to participate in. People are expected to make an effort with and put thought into their contributions to MeFi whereas Reddit sets a much lower bar on contribution. This is a good thing in terms of keeping shitty comments away, but it also makes conversations overly formal sometimes. Light-hearted comments stand out here and that discourages people from being themselves sometimes. Threaded conversations do make that silliness easier and reduce the extent to which they derail the conversation, which is the only thing in their favour.
Given the constraints of the platform Mefi is built on, is there a viable way to build-in some tools to allow people to clearly respond to individual comments without derailing the whole conversation? Is there a way to sorta kinda thread comments by displaying them under the comment being replied to but still have the entire conversation displayed?
posted by dg at 4:23 PM on June 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
This. I like dive bars and that intimate atmosphere is what makes MeFi somewhere I keep coming back to again and again. I like that I recognise people here from years ago and can slip back into conversations easily. But I also understand this is not the model some people feel comfortable in, if only because they have good reasons for wanting to be more anonymous.
Making MeFi more accessible to people that don't know how to use HTML (ie almost everyone these days) would reduce the clunkiness in the UI and get rid of some of the negative aspects that make it hard for people to eg respond to specific comments in a consistent way that could bring some of the benefits of threaded comments without actually threading comments (which, over my dead body etc) and make it clearer that someone is responding to a specific comment and maybe not trying to derail the whole coversation. I very much like that each thread is a single conversation rather than a large party with a dozen or a hundred small groups all having their own conversation on and around a topic. I very much like that the conversation is linear and chronological, although that does discourage the silliness that might take the heat out of some conversations.
The key difference for me (between MeFi and Reddit) is that MeFi takes effort to participate in. People are expected to make an effort with and put thought into their contributions to MeFi whereas Reddit sets a much lower bar on contribution. This is a good thing in terms of keeping shitty comments away, but it also makes conversations overly formal sometimes. Light-hearted comments stand out here and that discourages people from being themselves sometimes. Threaded conversations do make that silliness easier and reduce the extent to which they derail the conversation, which is the only thing in their favour.
Given the constraints of the platform Mefi is built on, is there a viable way to build-in some tools to allow people to clearly respond to individual comments without derailing the whole conversation? Is there a way to sorta kinda thread comments by displaying them under the comment being replied to but still have the entire conversation displayed?
posted by dg at 4:23 PM on June 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
Adding to the chorus on threaded comments. Making what I think is relatively innocuous point and having either it, or somebody's unexpected reaction to it cause a derail is enough of a risk to makes me think twice about participating sometimes. That happens a lot less often on Reddit.
posted by rpfields at 7:01 PM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by rpfields at 7:01 PM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Me, I don't like threaded comments but I totally understand why other people love them. I don't know anything about anything to do with backend website wizardry but would it be possible to have optional threaded comments?
Love the comments above about Metafilter being a cozy unique bookstore or dive bar! I think that those are great ways to describe what we do and what goes on here. +1!
Yeah, maybe an upvoting option would be nice instead of a favorite.
posted by ashbury at 7:01 PM on June 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Love the comments above about Metafilter being a cozy unique bookstore or dive bar! I think that those are great ways to describe what we do and what goes on here. +1!
Yeah, maybe an upvoting option would be nice instead of a favorite.
posted by ashbury at 7:01 PM on June 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't think it's right to have this thread be an optimistic collection of "Here's what I would want changed on the technical side" without acknowledging that frimble is essentially a one-person, non-full-time, operation.
For example, it's almost 3 years to the day when it was discussed that the flag button's design is bad enough to be a social justice issue. This becomes especially poignant considering that visually-impaired Redditors are striking right now for reasons very similar to this.
I asked cortex about this in July 2021 and he said: "we have a reasonably settled take on what changes to the flag function we should try to make [...] and that the holdup is that implementation of any site-wide change to flags is a big job for messy legacy codebase reasons."
At the time, cortex had presented the problem as being a choice between one solution that was "[t]edious, doable as a one-off, doesn't scale to ongoing tweaking" and another choice that was "frimble reworks the site's byline code so everything is operating off of a common template, and then changes can be made to that template rather than a bunch of different places. This is what they've been putting some time into [...] I don't think frimble has a good estimate on the time there, but I'll check in with them about it."
That was nearly 23 months ago. I also respectfully submit that, if frimble hasn't had the time, this project would be an excellent candidate for SOLICITING HELP FROM THE USERS. Has there been any headway on whether the site is going to accept volunteer coding help? For example, last month hypnogogue had a MeTa where they offered a cash bounty for someone to implement their particular pony request, and signal submitted something, but the MeTa closed and the whole thing died on the vine.
I know I've said this before, but the site can’t truly prioritize anything because all the work has to be filtered through one part-timer’s availability, but at the same time they can’t admit that anything is not a priority either. The end result is that improvements that users consider to be absolute must-haves — the deletion ability for posts and histories, pronoun specifications, revamping the flag function, slur filters, moderation logs — get dragged on and on until users have to say “I will leave the site unless this feature exists.” Continuing to say “frimble will get to it eventually” is for all practical purposes a lie. Someone else has to be trained to do the work, to fill in the gaps.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:59 PM on June 14, 2023 [42 favorites]
For example, it's almost 3 years to the day when it was discussed that the flag button's design is bad enough to be a social justice issue. This becomes especially poignant considering that visually-impaired Redditors are striking right now for reasons very similar to this.
I asked cortex about this in July 2021 and he said: "we have a reasonably settled take on what changes to the flag function we should try to make [...] and that the holdup is that implementation of any site-wide change to flags is a big job for messy legacy codebase reasons."
At the time, cortex had presented the problem as being a choice between one solution that was "[t]edious, doable as a one-off, doesn't scale to ongoing tweaking" and another choice that was "frimble reworks the site's byline code so everything is operating off of a common template, and then changes can be made to that template rather than a bunch of different places. This is what they've been putting some time into [...] I don't think frimble has a good estimate on the time there, but I'll check in with them about it."
That was nearly 23 months ago. I also respectfully submit that, if frimble hasn't had the time, this project would be an excellent candidate for SOLICITING HELP FROM THE USERS. Has there been any headway on whether the site is going to accept volunteer coding help? For example, last month hypnogogue had a MeTa where they offered a cash bounty for someone to implement their particular pony request, and signal submitted something, but the MeTa closed and the whole thing died on the vine.
I know I've said this before, but the site can’t truly prioritize anything because all the work has to be filtered through one part-timer’s availability, but at the same time they can’t admit that anything is not a priority either. The end result is that improvements that users consider to be absolute must-haves — the deletion ability for posts and histories, pronoun specifications, revamping the flag function, slur filters, moderation logs — get dragged on and on until users have to say “I will leave the site unless this feature exists.” Continuing to say “frimble will get to it eventually” is for all practical purposes a lie. Someone else has to be trained to do the work, to fill in the gaps.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:59 PM on June 14, 2023 [42 favorites]
And being looser about deleting "chat" in general.
FWIW I have been hammering this particular note since 2002 and the past couple months during the back half of every big AI thread I’ve had a moment of, “damn, they’re really just gonna let us keep running wild with this, huh?”
Twenty-one years here and I’ve never felt that.
It’s been nice. Really, really nice. I don’t know if there’s an unspoken rule of keep it focused until the steam starts to runs out or what but I’ve been acting as if there is and it’s been lovely.
posted by Ryvar at 8:05 PM on June 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
FWIW I have been hammering this particular note since 2002 and the past couple months during the back half of every big AI thread I’ve had a moment of, “damn, they’re really just gonna let us keep running wild with this, huh?”
Twenty-one years here and I’ve never felt that.
It’s been nice. Really, really nice. I don’t know if there’s an unspoken rule of keep it focused until the steam starts to runs out or what but I’ve been acting as if there is and it’s been lovely.
posted by Ryvar at 8:05 PM on June 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
+1 button for block quotes
Oh yes! This one is tiny and easy to implement and even if there's some grandiose background plan to totally revamp the edit field and so forth, this should be implemented quickly before that anyway.
(I think MF/frimble have a huge tendency to jump immediately to some ideal, complicated, optimal solution that ends up taking forever - which is okay as far as it goes, I guess, but when work capacity is as limited as it is now, you've got to start making the little incremental improvements first so that things at least get better while users wait for the big perfect solution. The flag thing is a case in point - I have no idea what the team has in mind design-wise, but I can't for the life of me understand why there hasn't been an intermediate step to just change the [!] to [flag] or something. That should not take 2 years.)
posted by trig at 8:33 PM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Oh yes! This one is tiny and easy to implement and even if there's some grandiose background plan to totally revamp the edit field and so forth, this should be implemented quickly before that anyway.
(I think MF/frimble have a huge tendency to jump immediately to some ideal, complicated, optimal solution that ends up taking forever - which is okay as far as it goes, I guess, but when work capacity is as limited as it is now, you've got to start making the little incremental improvements first so that things at least get better while users wait for the big perfect solution. The flag thing is a case in point - I have no idea what the team has in mind design-wise, but I can't for the life of me understand why there hasn't been an intermediate step to just change the [!] to [flag] or something. That should not take 2 years.)
posted by trig at 8:33 PM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Permanent ability to edit and delete your own comments is a big advantage anywhere.
On somewhere like Metafilter where people are constantly on a hair trigger to go nuclear because you violated one of a thousand vaguely described language rules, commenting without it feels a bit like defusing a bomb.
There's that grim feeling when you type something like "Conservatives are blind to the consequences of..." and just after the edit window you realise a dozen people are going to come after you for being an evil monster acting out ABLIST OPPRESSION.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:42 PM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
On somewhere like Metafilter where people are constantly on a hair trigger to go nuclear because you violated one of a thousand vaguely described language rules, commenting without it feels a bit like defusing a bomb.
There's that grim feeling when you type something like "Conservatives are blind to the consequences of..." and just after the edit window you realise a dozen people are going to come after you for being an evil monster acting out ABLIST OPPRESSION.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:42 PM on June 14, 2023 [19 favorites]
Downvotes. Metafilter has a bad trolling problem where certain people make the same arguments over and over in a thread, other people respond to them and so they respond back and it just goes on and on getting more and more pointless. Downvotes discourage this, and the policy of hiding comments once they reach a threshold of downvotes makes threads much more readable.
Also threaded responses are easier to follow, and make so-called derails much less disruptive. Sometimes a derail can spark an interesting discussion on its own, and threaded discussions allow that to happen without interrupting the main thrust of the discussion.
posted by Umami Dearest at 8:52 PM on June 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
Also threaded responses are easier to follow, and make so-called derails much less disruptive. Sometimes a derail can spark an interesting discussion on its own, and threaded discussions allow that to happen without interrupting the main thrust of the discussion.
posted by Umami Dearest at 8:52 PM on June 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
I guess I don't match the question exactly, since I'm still here and I've never used Reddit. But I have a little familiarity with Reddit via my wife, and I'd been thinking about joining, until the recent trouble - and might still.
For me the main attraction is simply the huge amount of content, seems like there are tons of niche interests. Don't really see this as something MetaFilter can realistically compete with, unfortunately.
But threaded comments - yes, please. I strongly believe the "everyone in one room shouting at each other" effect is one of MetaFilter's biggest weaknesses. I believe it contributes heavily towards the negative, intimidating atmosphere that many people cited in the site survey a little while back.
Not talking about upvotes/downvotes, reordering comments, hiding comments below a threshold, or anything fancy like that (although I don't have anything against those proposals either). Just simple threading with indentation would be great and a massive improvement.
posted by equalpants at 8:53 PM on June 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
For me the main attraction is simply the huge amount of content, seems like there are tons of niche interests. Don't really see this as something MetaFilter can realistically compete with, unfortunately.
But threaded comments - yes, please. I strongly believe the "everyone in one room shouting at each other" effect is one of MetaFilter's biggest weaknesses. I believe it contributes heavily towards the negative, intimidating atmosphere that many people cited in the site survey a little while back.
Not talking about upvotes/downvotes, reordering comments, hiding comments below a threshold, or anything fancy like that (although I don't have anything against those proposals either). Just simple threading with indentation would be great and a massive improvement.
posted by equalpants at 8:53 PM on June 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
MAYBE more chatfilter on AskMe. Being able to ask weird and off the wall questions would be great, but I wouldn’t want to dilute the AskMe brand of being able to get straighter answers to straight questions. But I might be overthinking this
This already happened a while back! And there have indeed been a bunch of extremely chatfilter-y questions. I don't actually like it, but it's not to the point where it makes AskMe feel like a stupid place to be, which is where it would get problematic (for me).
However, the prohibition against threadsitting needs to be loosened or clarified, I think. There's a big difference between an OP arguing with everyone in the comments versus coming back in with more information or to answer questions that answerers raised. I see a lot of OPs prefacing really relevant additional info with "sorry to threadsit but..." or "I promise I won't reply any more after this..." and I don't know if this is just something people have internalized on their own or a reaction to actual mod deletions, but I don't think people should be afraid of adding useful info.
posted by trig at 8:53 PM on June 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
This already happened a while back! And there have indeed been a bunch of extremely chatfilter-y questions. I don't actually like it, but it's not to the point where it makes AskMe feel like a stupid place to be, which is where it would get problematic (for me).
However, the prohibition against threadsitting needs to be loosened or clarified, I think. There's a big difference between an OP arguing with everyone in the comments versus coming back in with more information or to answer questions that answerers raised. I see a lot of OPs prefacing really relevant additional info with "sorry to threadsit but..." or "I promise I won't reply any more after this..." and I don't know if this is just something people have internalized on their own or a reaction to actual mod deletions, but I don't think people should be afraid of adding useful info.
posted by trig at 8:53 PM on June 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
If the question is about why fewer people come to MetaFilter, isn't that because Google search stopped showing AskMeta results as high as they used to, for some mysterious reason?
posted by Zumbador at 9:21 PM on June 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Zumbador at 9:21 PM on June 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
If the question is about why fewer people come to MetaFilter, isn't that because Google search stopped showing AskMeta results as high as they used to, for some mysterious reason?
No. There was no sudden drop in new users associated with the Google change. The slowdown in new users was a gradual change over many years.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:35 PM on June 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
No. There was no sudden drop in new users associated with the Google change. The slowdown in new users was a gradual change over many years.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:35 PM on June 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Threaded comments, of course. It's trivial to add an option to view them flattened, but not so the other way 'round.
I've been (mostly) lurking here forever it feels like and I still have difficulty parsing the conversation threads in flattened form.
Most other issues I have with missing features and accessibility problems I've long since resolved on my own end with CSS and JS. Like we've seen on reddit, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in applying third-party bandages to make this site more tolerable.
posted by otsebyatina at 10:33 PM on June 14, 2023
I've been (mostly) lurking here forever it feels like and I still have difficulty parsing the conversation threads in flattened form.
Most other issues I have with missing features and accessibility problems I've long since resolved on my own end with CSS and JS. Like we've seen on reddit, I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in applying third-party bandages to make this site more tolerable.
posted by otsebyatina at 10:33 PM on June 14, 2023
I am a frequent user of the blockquote tag, I'd love a button.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:07 PM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:07 PM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Has there been any headway on whether the site is going to accept volunteer coding help?
Given recent discussions and decisions here about the legality of unpaid labor, I’m going to guess that things are not moving in that direction.
If and when ownership arrives at a volunteerism model that counsel is comfortable with, I’d be happy to contribute. But keep in mind that there may be a significant upfront cost (i.e. more of frimble’s time) to establishing a workflow for local development, review and approval of changes, QA, etc.
posted by staggernation at 11:08 PM on June 14, 2023
Given recent discussions and decisions here about the legality of unpaid labor, I’m going to guess that things are not moving in that direction.
If and when ownership arrives at a volunteerism model that counsel is comfortable with, I’d be happy to contribute. But keep in mind that there may be a significant upfront cost (i.e. more of frimble’s time) to establishing a workflow for local development, review and approval of changes, QA, etc.
posted by staggernation at 11:08 PM on June 14, 2023
The world doesn’t need two Reddits.
posted by Phanx at 2:17 AM on June 15, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by Phanx at 2:17 AM on June 15, 2023 [29 favorites]
I prefer reddit for finding information and metafilter for finding opinions from people that are worth listening to. For a simple question with a clear answer, I'll look at reddit. For a more nuanced take on something complicated, I'll see what people are saying here. Sometimes there's no discussion on that topic here, and then it's back to reddit. I use both sites regularly.
Ask is great, especially for relationship questions where I have exactly zero interest in the average redditor's opinion, but the upvotes and threading make it much faster and easier to find info on reddit. But with the exception of a few tiny subreddits where you get to know people over time, reddit answers are essentially anonymous, with all the associated drawbacks. I very much am not suggesting that metafilter move in that direction (i.e. threading or displaying comments in order of upvotes). Reddit already exists, there's no point in making a much smaller knock-off. Metafilter has different strengths.
posted by randomnity at 4:59 AM on June 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
Ask is great, especially for relationship questions where I have exactly zero interest in the average redditor's opinion, but the upvotes and threading make it much faster and easier to find info on reddit. But with the exception of a few tiny subreddits where you get to know people over time, reddit answers are essentially anonymous, with all the associated drawbacks. I very much am not suggesting that metafilter move in that direction (i.e. threading or displaying comments in order of upvotes). Reddit already exists, there's no point in making a much smaller knock-off. Metafilter has different strengths.
posted by randomnity at 4:59 AM on June 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
I second the suggestion that a simple shift in site culture that would allow the poster to set certain rules of engagment for commenting could allow for better discussion in certain cases. I'd argue that it already exists in a limited fashion (the Ukraine posts, for example), but nailing down rules and implimentations could make for more positive and productive discussion and less grar.
posted by rikschell at 5:01 AM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rikschell at 5:01 AM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
To be EXTREMELY clear, I am not interested in MetaFilter becoming a reddit knockoff. Chasing being an imitation of something else never really works out for the best. Me asking what I can learn from someone else doesn’t mean I want to turn into them.
posted by Bottlecap at 5:03 AM on June 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 5:03 AM on June 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'll dissent and say downvotes are awful, and would significantly alter MeFi culture. I'd stopped commenting anything on Reddit, lest I get yet another notification that my comment that something was cute, or another innocuous opinion, had been down voted into oblivion. For me, it really ruins my day to get a quiet down vote on something non aggressive or controversial. I don't like the idea of encouraging casual slapdowns.
Also, I hate threaded comments as they don't seem so much as to create side convos as derail the main topic.
But I see I'm very "old world" in these feelings, as I never really used Reddit and have been here since 2001.
However, I, too, have been frustrated by the long replies of, "we're working on things, frimble is busy." Tiny changes to flagging UI take over two years? Most of these requests are fantasy then. Sigh.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:34 AM on June 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
Also, I hate threaded comments as they don't seem so much as to create side convos as derail the main topic.
But I see I'm very "old world" in these feelings, as I never really used Reddit and have been here since 2001.
However, I, too, have been frustrated by the long replies of, "we're working on things, frimble is busy." Tiny changes to flagging UI take over two years? Most of these requests are fantasy then. Sigh.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:34 AM on June 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
(Oh, and yes, absolutely users should be able to delete their own comments. Maybe after a certain time period, a week or something.)
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:34 AM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:34 AM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would like the option of threaded comments or the current chronological organization. Threaded comments are nice for moving through a long thread...but chronological ones show how new information changes the conversation, or allows people to do some of the best riffing on the site.
A thing that MeFi does well, which Reddit seems not to do as well, is joking around. Too many redditors have either a tin ear or a juvenile sense of humor, so a casual throw-away line can bring an entire thread to a skidding halt when one reader doesn't understand it. Worse, any comment trains there usually rely on really weak double-entendre, or "yo momma" jokes, or gross stuff -- but never any pancakes recipes or alphabet series. I would love to be able to collapse dumb run-away threads like that, and keep moving in to better comments -- which threaded discussion helps.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:01 AM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
A thing that MeFi does well, which Reddit seems not to do as well, is joking around. Too many redditors have either a tin ear or a juvenile sense of humor, so a casual throw-away line can bring an entire thread to a skidding halt when one reader doesn't understand it. Worse, any comment trains there usually rely on really weak double-entendre, or "yo momma" jokes, or gross stuff -- but never any pancakes recipes or alphabet series. I would love to be able to collapse dumb run-away threads like that, and keep moving in to better comments -- which threaded discussion helps.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:01 AM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I just remembered that another alternative to comment self-deletion that was discussed back then was the ability to go back and anonymize your own comments.
posted by trig at 6:26 AM on June 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by trig at 6:26 AM on June 15, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think that the real lesson is that professional moderators, supported by internal tools, and subject to community accountability is a vastly superior model to Reddit. I personally believe that we should be looking for a new software platform that incorporates many of the high-demand UI features of the modern internet, but not at the expense of sacrificing the moderation model.
the moderators of reddit organized a massive protest where thousands of subs went dark due to the upcoming API changes. the mods here won't even post in contentious metatalk threads. lots of problems with reddit for sure but idk about this one.
posted by JimBennett at 7:09 AM on June 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
the moderators of reddit organized a massive protest where thousands of subs went dark due to the upcoming API changes. the mods here won't even post in contentious metatalk threads. lots of problems with reddit for sure but idk about this one.
posted by JimBennett at 7:09 AM on June 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
I'll dissent and say downvotes are awful, and would significantly alter MeFi culture.
Downvoting is absolutely essential for sites like Reddit with a wide open door to participation. It’s how you keep the thin layer of Internet slime tucked neatly out of view where nobody has to look at it.
/r/The_Donald deadenders want to come and spraypaint slurs everywhere? They can have at it, but the only person who will ever see that shit is an automod bot. Them wasting time on something pointless is a tiny victory for the rest of us, and eventually like all attention-seekers they get bored and wander off.
On Metafilter with its $5 entry fee, reduced scope and zero tolerance for that particular kind of bullshit downvoting would only lead to lots of backbiting nastiness. The thin layer of slime never starts to accumulate in the first place. Also… we are not exactly a quick-to-forgive-and-forget crowd, and should probably avoid acquiring new tools with which to generate grievance.
posted by Ryvar at 7:24 AM on June 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
Downvoting is absolutely essential for sites like Reddit with a wide open door to participation. It’s how you keep the thin layer of Internet slime tucked neatly out of view where nobody has to look at it.
/r/The_Donald deadenders want to come and spraypaint slurs everywhere? They can have at it, but the only person who will ever see that shit is an automod bot. Them wasting time on something pointless is a tiny victory for the rest of us, and eventually like all attention-seekers they get bored and wander off.
On Metafilter with its $5 entry fee, reduced scope and zero tolerance for that particular kind of bullshit downvoting would only lead to lots of backbiting nastiness. The thin layer of slime never starts to accumulate in the first place. Also… we are not exactly a quick-to-forgive-and-forget crowd, and should probably avoid acquiring new tools with which to generate grievance.
posted by Ryvar at 7:24 AM on June 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
Given recent discussions and decisions here about the legality of unpaid labor, I’m going to guess that things are not moving in that direction.
Yes. Without getting into it, this. And yes, we're addressing that in addition to the other work frimble has been doing. And yes, UI/flagging changes shouldn't take two years, I agree with you. We were addressing that with help from the Steering Committee and then we couldn't. Reddit has about 750 employees. We have six part-timers only one of whom can access the code base to do anything besides basic HTML changes. This is not okay and we're working to fix that.
Which is not to say that people shouldn't be talking about feature requests and ideas they have for the place and even just pie-in-the-sky ideas, I'm all for it. Just wanted to pop in and say "Yes we're listening"
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:20 AM on June 15, 2023 [13 favorites]
Yes. Without getting into it, this. And yes, we're addressing that in addition to the other work frimble has been doing. And yes, UI/flagging changes shouldn't take two years, I agree with you. We were addressing that with help from the Steering Committee and then we couldn't. Reddit has about 750 employees. We have six part-timers only one of whom can access the code base to do anything besides basic HTML changes. This is not okay and we're working to fix that.
Which is not to say that people shouldn't be talking about feature requests and ideas they have for the place and even just pie-in-the-sky ideas, I'm all for it. Just wanted to pop in and say "Yes we're listening"
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:20 AM on June 15, 2023 [13 favorites]
🎠Ponies 🐎
- deleted posts and comments to leave a trace {deleted}.
- user names in choosable colors and fonts, from a limited selection, or have bling 🦓 because it's hard to keep track of everyone, and self-expression is good. Yes, I should have thought of that when I set up my account.
- not a fan of blocking people; I think it harms community.
- I would like to know when someone refers to me, i.e., when I say that I like Brandon Blatcher's idea blocked users comments appear as grey or faded text, so it's easier to skip them, he'd get mefi mail or some form of notification. Attributing quotations from commenters feels really useful to me, more conversational. BB's comment is excellent, btw. Block-quoting should link the comment referred to. easy linking of comments or threads would be really useful.
- Threading deserves it own thread, lol, but it's a broad topic and should get detailed discussion. I'd prefer threading that is non-collapsible, just staggered so it's obvious that it's a conversation.
- It's important to say what works so we don't lose those things.
- Any change will be exploited, pranked, and used in unanticipated ways, and that's generally fine with me.
- Maybe we could have a limited number of self-deletions available. I have not thought this through, but unlimited deletion can allow shitty behavior.
- A lot of what some people perceive as rules are completely uncodified. There was a request to not use small type because it difficult for vision-impaired members. This isn't obvious to people who don't keep track on MeTa.
This might be a stupid question but while participation in site governance might be out is there any reason the Metafilter source couldn’t be posted to Github as an open source project under Apache/MIT license, where interested users are submitting pull requests (non-programmers: suggested code changes to be approved/denied by the project maintainer)?
Like, an open source project is an open source project, period. And Metafilter as an org would use the OpenFilter project as its platform foundation. I’m fairly certain that model gets used a lot - Epic’s a multi-billion dollar company and that’s how the Unreal Engine development model works.
posted by Ryvar at 8:30 AM on June 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
Like, an open source project is an open source project, period. And Metafilter as an org would use the OpenFilter project as its platform foundation. I’m fairly certain that model gets used a lot - Epic’s a multi-billion dollar company and that’s how the Unreal Engine development model works.
posted by Ryvar at 8:30 AM on June 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
Yep, we have a private Github repo and opening it up should be part of the plan moving forward.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:43 AM on June 15, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:43 AM on June 15, 2023 [21 favorites]
Reddit has like 50 million users right? That's the main reason to go there.
Obviously I won't say we can't learn anything from them about UX or community management. Just, there are a lot of things that are attractive about Reddit that have nothing directly to do with policy or technology and instead come from the fact that there's an enormous number of people and an enormous breadth of interests there. When I find myself on Reddit, it's because of features that are constitutively impossible for Metafilter to emulate. Like Reddit has a big, active enthusiast community for my specific text editor version. Couldn't happen here even with threads, downvotes, unpaid mods and a professional white background.
posted by grobstein at 8:54 AM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Obviously I won't say we can't learn anything from them about UX or community management. Just, there are a lot of things that are attractive about Reddit that have nothing directly to do with policy or technology and instead come from the fact that there's an enormous number of people and an enormous breadth of interests there. When I find myself on Reddit, it's because of features that are constitutively impossible for Metafilter to emulate. Like Reddit has a big, active enthusiast community for my specific text editor version. Couldn't happen here even with threads, downvotes, unpaid mods and a professional white background.
posted by grobstein at 8:54 AM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Metafilter is still very much the site I visit daily, where I steal comments to re-post, get ideas, think out loud, share news, etc. MeFi is generally smarter, more clever, better informed. Okay, elitist and self-serving (Metafilter: elitist and self-serving since 1999). There's a lot of good progress right now, and I'm appreciative. Twitter is the hottest of messes, facebook is also corrupt, reddit, like the others, has islands of good stuff among the junk and godawful, invasive ads. As people abandon twitter, it's really hard to keep up with the interesting people whose news I value, and that's a shame.
If we had .sigs, my new one would be: Dive bar bookstore is my new aspiration.
posted by theora55 at 9:05 AM on June 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
If we had .sigs, my new one would be: Dive bar bookstore is my new aspiration.
posted by theora55 at 9:05 AM on June 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
we have a private Github repo and opening it up should be part of the plan moving forward
Nice. I’ve always felt guilty about the fact that I’ve never contributed a cent to the site since I hacked my way in. But there are some reasons why I will never be able to bring myself to pay someone else to shut me up. Even though I know they’re doing me a favor half the time. I just can’t.
Having an alternative way to give back directly - even if web development is more adjacent to my skillset than within it - would be awesome.
posted by Ryvar at 9:09 AM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nice. I’ve always felt guilty about the fact that I’ve never contributed a cent to the site since I hacked my way in. But there are some reasons why I will never be able to bring myself to pay someone else to shut me up. Even though I know they’re doing me a favor half the time. I just can’t.
Having an alternative way to give back directly - even if web development is more adjacent to my skillset than within it - would be awesome.
posted by Ryvar at 9:09 AM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Looking forward to seeing the GitHub repo opened. Seems like there are enough web devs in the community to advance the markup from things like using <br> tags for whitespace and using anchor tags where a button should be. I'm daring to dream 😀
posted by otsebyatina at 9:37 AM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by otsebyatina at 9:37 AM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Fully aware that frimble is on his own for coding, but couldn't blockquote and the like be implemented the same way bold and italics are? (Control (macOS Command) B and I, respectively.) I don't know all of the keyboard shortcuts built in, but I just noticed Command/Control U summons the box for pasting in a link. Could the same be done with lists? Typing a bullet or an asterisk could trigger an indentation and the beginning of an unordered list, and typing 1. could trigger an indent and the beginning of an ordered list
I'm an old who doesn't need text styling buttons, and I don't mind trying things that I imagine should work (and often do.) That's how I discovered in Slack that you could copy a URL, highlight text in your Slack message and then past the URL into the highlighted text. Much simpler than clicking a link button, I think.
posted by emelenjr at 9:47 AM on June 15, 2023
I'm an old who doesn't need text styling buttons, and I don't mind trying things that I imagine should work (and often do.) That's how I discovered in Slack that you could copy a URL, highlight text in your Slack message and then past the URL into the highlighted text. Much simpler than clicking a link button, I think.
posted by emelenjr at 9:47 AM on June 15, 2023
My experience of threaded comments everywhere is that the ideal of 'derails can just be threaded off and don't interrupt the main thread' never really bears out. Discussion ends up split between two or three active threads, while the root thread carries on in parallel or dies. Any time I look up information from a reddit thread, I find I have to read every thread anyway, to get the full picture. People cross-posting to different threads in the same discussion, or linking or referring to stuff that's happened earlier in time but in later threads is routine. It just confuses and fragments everything. On top of that, I feel like a very small percentage is threads on mefi ever rise to the kind of size where any supposed advantages would be meaningful anyway.
posted by Dysk at 9:54 AM on June 15, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 9:54 AM on June 15, 2023 [35 favorites]
It's not reddit but...this is my site design hobby horse so I'll add it here:
I still feel that FanFare could be a site that could be huge and fill a great niche on the internet. At one time, there was a proposed redesign, a number of people loudly (and in my opinion quite harshly) booed the redesign, it was abandoned and then we returned to a fairly thinly used FanFare.
The biggest barrier to public use of FanFare IMHO is the metafilter scroll... Every post simply comes linearly one after another. So when DirtyOldTown does their amazing and awesome horror film binges, we just see like 20 horror films in a row. I don't care for horror films so if I was new here, and even as an old hand, I feel like, Eh, this isn't really for me. Whereas if there were like, different ways to land that were less linear (Books/Films/TV/Events in different quadrants? Some shortcut for subtypes?) I could see FanFare feeling like more of a home for folks online where chat filter is welcome and friends could be made.
In other words, I wish we could have an awesome way for people to 'land' on the part of FanFare they are passionate about - while also having opportunities to see stuff that they aren't YET passionate about, but could become so!
Yes, there are functions in FanFare that allow me to curate content there, but those tools have not resulted in a section of this site that is widely used, even by our small community of existing Mefites. So we can teach ourselves to use those tools, but they are not effective in making the site welcoming to newbies or growing use of that part of our community.
posted by latkes at 9:57 AM on June 15, 2023 [36 favorites]
I still feel that FanFare could be a site that could be huge and fill a great niche on the internet. At one time, there was a proposed redesign, a number of people loudly (and in my opinion quite harshly) booed the redesign, it was abandoned and then we returned to a fairly thinly used FanFare.
The biggest barrier to public use of FanFare IMHO is the metafilter scroll... Every post simply comes linearly one after another. So when DirtyOldTown does their amazing and awesome horror film binges, we just see like 20 horror films in a row. I don't care for horror films so if I was new here, and even as an old hand, I feel like, Eh, this isn't really for me. Whereas if there were like, different ways to land that were less linear (Books/Films/TV/Events in different quadrants? Some shortcut for subtypes?) I could see FanFare feeling like more of a home for folks online where chat filter is welcome and friends could be made.
In other words, I wish we could have an awesome way for people to 'land' on the part of FanFare they are passionate about - while also having opportunities to see stuff that they aren't YET passionate about, but could become so!
Yes, there are functions in FanFare that allow me to curate content there, but those tools have not resulted in a section of this site that is widely used, even by our small community of existing Mefites. So we can teach ourselves to use those tools, but they are not effective in making the site welcoming to newbies or growing use of that part of our community.
posted by latkes at 9:57 AM on June 15, 2023 [36 favorites]
Fully aware that frimble is on his own for coding
just a quick fyi, frimble uses they/them pronouns.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:06 AM on June 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
just a quick fyi, frimble uses they/them pronouns.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:06 AM on June 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
My apologies for not checking my comment more closely, and thanks for the correction. Frimble is on their own for coding.
posted by emelenjr at 10:25 AM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by emelenjr at 10:25 AM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would like to register my vote for not implementing the following features:
posted by AndrewStephens at 11:43 AM on June 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
- Downvoting: we already have favorites for essentially upvoting, downvoting adds nothing. It you disagree with a comment then you can reply or, in extreme cases, flag. Just anonymously downvoting adds nothing to the conversation. On popular subreddits, voting is hilariously corrupt with block voting and stupid cliques.
- Deletion: There are some valid reasons for deletion but they are best handled by the mods. It forces people to consider their replies with the knowledge that they actions are permanently recorded. If you have made a faux pas in a comment, the adult thing to do is to apologize and correct yourself. Deletion just fragments conversations.
posted by AndrewStephens at 11:43 AM on June 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
Deletions without leaving a trace are weird, because they cause cascades of consequential deletions down through the thread that are just...not optimal. Leaving a marker would sure help -- which is a thing that Reddit does, with their "deleted" string.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:33 PM on June 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 12:33 PM on June 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
One thing Reddit does well is… not do this. Don’t get me wrong the API and other tech bro stuff was bad but they just do things at the expense of losing users and gaining others and evolving. You’ll never get a consensus and I think open dialogue is a good thing but do tangible items come out of this? I’d rather ask forgiveness in implementing features, I trust Jessamyn and the staff aren’t going put clickbait ads at the bottom like CNN. These discussions seem to go in circles and it is obvious technical resourcing is a huge issue.
When I start an engagement one of my key points is to have one stakeholder (okay maybe two) that may unilaterally make decisions. Going to a board gets nothing done from “it works fine” to “let’s change our business model!”
I know this is unpopular but these threads tend to go in circles.
posted by geoff. at 12:55 PM on June 15, 2023 [19 favorites]
When I start an engagement one of my key points is to have one stakeholder (okay maybe two) that may unilaterally make decisions. Going to a board gets nothing done from “it works fine” to “let’s change our business model!”
I know this is unpopular but these threads tend to go in circles.
posted by geoff. at 12:55 PM on June 15, 2023 [19 favorites]
Deletion: There are some valid reasons for deletion but they are best handled by the mods.
To get around this, you can just prevent deletions in active threads. If you want to delete your comments, you have to wait for the thread to close.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:58 PM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
To get around this, you can just prevent deletions in active threads. If you want to delete your comments, you have to wait for the thread to close.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:58 PM on June 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm a fan of having a quote function built into the UI, and I would think one of the knock-on effects (perhaps with some small additional effort) could be that if later self-deletion or anonymization of individual comments were implemented - a thing I'd also be a fan of, with perhaps some trace as noted above - then having that standard quoting mechanism would make flowing the deletions/anonymizations to quote-replies a lot easier.
You’ll never get a consensus and I think open dialogue is a good thing but do tangible items come out of this?
Post titles?
posted by solotoro at 1:52 PM on June 15, 2023
You’ll never get a consensus and I think open dialogue is a good thing but do tangible items come out of this?
Post titles?
posted by solotoro at 1:52 PM on June 15, 2023
Don't people already have the right to have their contributions deleted on request here? The note in the bottom corner says "All posts are © their original authors."
posted by otsebyatina at 1:54 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by otsebyatina at 1:54 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yes, but you have to make a special request to the mods to delete a comment or your comment history, and its still a question sometimes if they will delete your whole history. Most sites let you have control of your comments more directly.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:23 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:23 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Reddit doesn't seem to have the problem of people being afraid to create posts. Metafilter could stand to adjust its culture so that people aren't intimidated to do that.
Perhaps something like the first week of every month could be "create a post" week, where folks are encouraged to spend no more than 15 minutes creating a post. So rather than fretting over making the "perfect" post, people do something they find fun. Just whatever the individual is interested in or discovered was really cool that day. Mods could be extra vigilant about removing early comments that tend to derail things.
Just a stray idea.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:24 PM on June 15, 2023 [27 favorites]
Perhaps something like the first week of every month could be "create a post" week, where folks are encouraged to spend no more than 15 minutes creating a post. So rather than fretting over making the "perfect" post, people do something they find fun. Just whatever the individual is interested in or discovered was really cool that day. Mods could be extra vigilant about removing early comments that tend to derail things.
Just a stray idea.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:24 PM on June 15, 2023 [27 favorites]
its still a question sometimes if they will delete your whole history.
I don't believe there are questions anymore. We'll offer alternatives, like suggesting anonymizing some comments, and/or we'll ask for clarification that the user really does wants everything removed (sometimes the user's wording is a bit unclear), but otherwise it's pretty straightforward.
I do think there were some issues and questions and confusion when the feature was first released, but in my few months as a mod, there hasn't been problems. Someone wants their account wiped, it's gone.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:31 PM on June 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't believe there are questions anymore. We'll offer alternatives, like suggesting anonymizing some comments, and/or we'll ask for clarification that the user really does wants everything removed (sometimes the user's wording is a bit unclear), but otherwise it's pretty straightforward.
I do think there were some issues and questions and confusion when the feature was first released, but in my few months as a mod, there hasn't been problems. Someone wants their account wiped, it's gone.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:31 PM on June 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think it would become a question if more than a handful ever requested their entire history deleted at the same time, because I heard a lot of hedging then about how it would break site functionality for many to want entire account wipes, but I'd be happy to be wrong!
It's still very unusual in this day and age and I made a new account myself because I no longer want to be associated with comments made at 21 years old on this site with a very Google-able user name. I didn't have enough media literacy to recognize that mostly, MeFi comments are forever and needed to start fresh (at the time, comment deletions werent really considered). I'm glad it's different now but would still prefer a user-controlled solution, which I know is unlikely.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:46 PM on June 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's still very unusual in this day and age and I made a new account myself because I no longer want to be associated with comments made at 21 years old on this site with a very Google-able user name. I didn't have enough media literacy to recognize that mostly, MeFi comments are forever and needed to start fresh (at the time, comment deletions werent really considered). I'm glad it's different now but would still prefer a user-controlled solution, which I know is unlikely.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:46 PM on June 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
The number one thing that I want to see is a notification of deleted comments, and how many were deleted. (So in a recent thread that had a derail deleted, I could see "[5 comments deleted by Brandon Blatcher]" or "[2 comments deleted by user].")
I don't have any issues with self-deleting comments, as long as there's a record that there was something there. And as I've said before, Ask posts should be self-deletable too (along with Projects, Jobs and Music), while Blue and Fanfare posts should be anonymizable.
I'm strongly against threaded comments, but that's also a function of me being an Internet old.
posted by thecaddy at 2:48 PM on June 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
I don't have any issues with self-deleting comments, as long as there's a record that there was something there. And as I've said before, Ask posts should be self-deletable too (along with Projects, Jobs and Music), while Blue and Fanfare posts should be anonymizable.
I'm strongly against threaded comments, but that's also a function of me being an Internet old.
posted by thecaddy at 2:48 PM on June 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
+1 for "[5 comments deleted by Brandon Blatcher]" style deletion indications as a requirement, everywhere on the site, always. I don't care if mods have to add it manually, or if it eventually becomes an automated step when comments are deleted, but I think it should be a norm either way.
posted by Alterscape at 2:53 PM on June 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Alterscape at 2:53 PM on June 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
[Deleted] where comments used to exist. Top posts of the week/month/year (by tag?) Spaces for city-based conversations.
posted by michaelh at 3:05 PM on June 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by michaelh at 3:05 PM on June 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
MetaFilter: the thin layer of slime never starts to accumulate
posted by chavenet at 3:06 PM on June 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 3:06 PM on June 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
You’ll never get a consensus and I think open dialogue is a good thing but do tangible items come out of this?
Post titles?
Okay it works once every ten years.
posted by geoff. at 3:12 PM on June 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Post titles?
Okay it works once every ten years.
posted by geoff. at 3:12 PM on June 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
The easily digestible variety, which I don’t expect from MeFi. Reddit is toilet reading, MeFi is armchair reading.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 3:22 PM on June 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 3:22 PM on June 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
I feel like there's lots of good discussion of technical features here, and I'm curious if there's more cultural stuff that Metafilter could learn from Reddit too. I'm not a Reddit user so I don't have any particular suggestions ... but, like, would more diverse moderation styles in different contexts be useful? Do volunteer mods have experiences that would be applicable here? Are there norms and expectations that tend to produce good discussions in specific subreddits? Should this site make a point of encouraging AMA or ELI5 type posts somehow?
posted by Gerald Bostock at 3:45 PM on June 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Gerald Bostock at 3:45 PM on June 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Should this site make a point of encouraging AMA or ELI5 type posts somehow?
I like this idea and it's possibly the only good use of threaded posts.
posted by dg at 4:30 PM on June 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I like this idea and it's possibly the only good use of threaded posts.
posted by dg at 4:30 PM on June 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm with BB — the biggest thing I wish MetaFilter would steal from Reddit is to become friendlier. On Metafilter, I probably delete at least half of the comments I start writing because I get nervous about being misinterpreted, nit-picked, or otherwise piled-upon. I've had comments on Reddit downvoted into oblivion, and I think maybe a couple deleted by mods (can't remember but probably), but I've never felt scared of being shamed or embarrassed or belittled like I do over here.
I sat with this comment in in a draft for 90 minutes debating whether even to post it...
posted by dorothy hawk at 4:36 PM on June 15, 2023 [78 favorites]
I sat with this comment in in a draft for 90 minutes debating whether even to post it...
posted by dorothy hawk at 4:36 PM on June 15, 2023 [78 favorites]
There has been some discussion of the ability to delete one's own comments so some might find it helpful to know that there is an article in the current issue of First Monday, a peer-reviewed journal about the Internet, that specifically focuses on people who delete their posts on Reddit: Even pseudonyms and throwaways delete their Reddit posts by Joseph Reagle at Northeastern University.
posted by ElKevbo at 4:49 PM on June 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ElKevbo at 4:49 PM on June 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I must be hanging out in the wrong corners of Reddit, because I presume everything I post there will be mocked, downvoted, or deliberately misinterpreted. People are jerks over there.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:02 PM on June 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:02 PM on June 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
wow, askhistorians is closed, about 2 million users and 1000 are on line, now.
posted by clavdivs at 5:11 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 5:11 PM on June 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Quite likely the case. There are subreddits with very nice people, well moderated and helpful. It's a big place, with good and bad communities.
Metafilter is not so nice that it can claim the high ground. People here are by and large highly adept at wielding words. There is a cruel streak here, and participation is intimidating to many.
I would love to see more kindness and patience here, but I do not envy mods tasked with pushing back against the meanness, the interpreting of comments in the worst possible light, and dismissiveness dressed up as polite concern. I'd worry too much about being convinced to eat my own tongue in the process.
posted by otsebyatina at 5:15 PM on June 15, 2023 [49 favorites]
Metafilter is not so nice that it can claim the high ground. People here are by and large highly adept at wielding words. There is a cruel streak here, and participation is intimidating to many.
I would love to see more kindness and patience here, but I do not envy mods tasked with pushing back against the meanness, the interpreting of comments in the worst possible light, and dismissiveness dressed up as polite concern. I'd worry too much about being convinced to eat my own tongue in the process.
posted by otsebyatina at 5:15 PM on June 15, 2023 [49 favorites]
Metafilter is not so nice that it can claim the high ground. People here are by and large highly adept at wielding words. There is a cruel streak here, and participation is intimidating to many.
A thousand times, this - and I think it's made worse because so many would fundamentally deny that it's true.
posted by kbanas at 5:33 PM on June 15, 2023 [65 favorites]
A thousand times, this - and I think it's made worse because so many would fundamentally deny that it's true.
posted by kbanas at 5:33 PM on June 15, 2023 [65 favorites]
I think it's made worse because so many would fundamentally deny that it's true.
There is definitely a wide gap between Metafilter’s self image and the regular lack of kindness displayed here.
If I were to think of Metafilter as a single entity I would say that it is trying hard to be kind by following a list of rules but has never internalized the guiding principle.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:47 PM on June 15, 2023 [31 favorites]
There is definitely a wide gap between Metafilter’s self image and the regular lack of kindness displayed here.
If I were to think of Metafilter as a single entity I would say that it is trying hard to be kind by following a list of rules but has never internalized the guiding principle.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:47 PM on June 15, 2023 [31 favorites]
I'd worry too much about being convinced to eat my own tongue in the process.
lmao
posted by grobstein at 8:41 PM on June 15, 2023
lmao
posted by grobstein at 8:41 PM on June 15, 2023
Should this site make a point of encouraging AMA or ELI5 type posts somehow?
I get the impression that AskMe is getting a lot more ELI5 and "suggest a product for me" questions. Although it's also possible that my brain has filtered out all the relationship / anxiety questions now so that is what's left. I don't mind it though.
posted by meowzilla at 8:41 PM on June 15, 2023
I get the impression that AskMe is getting a lot more ELI5 and "suggest a product for me" questions. Although it's also possible that my brain has filtered out all the relationship / anxiety questions now so that is what's left. I don't mind it though.
posted by meowzilla at 8:41 PM on June 15, 2023
Maybe the redditors would feel more at home here if we had one of those “He gets us” ads every 4 or 5 comments.
posted by Devils Rancher at 8:56 PM on June 15, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by Devils Rancher at 8:56 PM on June 15, 2023 [16 favorites]
Ok, no comment threading, but a “quote” button that would append the selected comment and a live link back to it so that this wouldn’t have to be done manually with copy/paste and writing html tags. This is especially difficult if the comment you want to quote has another 10 or 20 comments after it before the “comment:” box at the bottom of the thread.
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:11 PM on June 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:11 PM on June 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
In other words, I wish we could have an awesome way for people to 'land' on the part of FanFare they are passionate about - while also having opportunities to see stuff that they aren't YET passionate about, but could become so!
Here's something I noticed on FanFare:
Movie posts die. I looked at 43 movies from 2019, well into the FanFare era; the top 30 US box office, the movies nominated for Best Picture and the movies that won any Oscar. The 13 most commented on movies had over 35 comments each; there was a total of 2351 comments on these movies. (Half of them - over 600 each - on Avengers: Endgame and Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker; but it's not all CGI franchise movies - there were over 100 comments each on Knives Out and Us, over 50 on Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Parasite, and Little Women), Of these comments, 2266 were made before the end of March 2020 (i.e. a month out from the Oscars). 57 comments in the rest of 2020, 16 in 2021, 10 comments in 2022 and 2 so far in 2023.
It's the same for older movies. The Wizard of Oz went 83 years with no comments on FanFare, was posted Sept 21, 2022; got 15 comments that day, 16 on Sept 22, 6 on Sept 23, and 2 on Sept 24, and none since. This is not a movie that was only highly relevant to people's interests for four days nine months ago. I looked at a handful of older movies; Oscar winners and other classics, and the posts all basically die within a week, tops.
I often watch a thing that isn't brand-spanking new, then I always go on FanFare, and I read the comments, and then I basically never comment myself, because it's clear that the thread is moribund and no one else will ever see it. It's not like everyone stopped giving a shit about the movie; people watch older movies all the time, it's just that the only way to find them is with a search, and by that point the threads may as well be read-only.
There's a ton of great stuff here; lots of people have said interesting things, posted cool links, and there's potential for discussion and debate, but because the threads freeze up when they fall off the front page, it doesn't happen.
It would be a ton of work to put in a recommendation system that helps people see things they would be interested in -- although it would be great!
So here are my two proposals:
1). The "My FanFare" feature automatically subscribed me to Top Chef when I made new posts for it; could this be extended to automatically subscribe people to shows/movies they comment on? To help bring people back when there are new comments.
2). Could a bot be created to semi-randomly re-post movies back in the queue as if they were new posts? Put a criteria on them; one a day, movies that are at least x years old and have y or more comments or something. Curated would be better, if more work. But it's clear that especially for older movies the only time people think to comment on them is if they're on the front page of FanFare. Reboosting them would bring them back into the conversation occasionally without drowning out the site, and might help create a culture where people comment on older posts, since they may wind up part of the conversation again.
posted by Superilla at 11:30 PM on June 15, 2023 [21 favorites]
Here's something I noticed on FanFare:
Movie posts die. I looked at 43 movies from 2019, well into the FanFare era; the top 30 US box office, the movies nominated for Best Picture and the movies that won any Oscar. The 13 most commented on movies had over 35 comments each; there was a total of 2351 comments on these movies. (Half of them - over 600 each - on Avengers: Endgame and Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker; but it's not all CGI franchise movies - there were over 100 comments each on Knives Out and Us, over 50 on Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Parasite, and Little Women), Of these comments, 2266 were made before the end of March 2020 (i.e. a month out from the Oscars). 57 comments in the rest of 2020, 16 in 2021, 10 comments in 2022 and 2 so far in 2023.
It's the same for older movies. The Wizard of Oz went 83 years with no comments on FanFare, was posted Sept 21, 2022; got 15 comments that day, 16 on Sept 22, 6 on Sept 23, and 2 on Sept 24, and none since. This is not a movie that was only highly relevant to people's interests for four days nine months ago. I looked at a handful of older movies; Oscar winners and other classics, and the posts all basically die within a week, tops.
I often watch a thing that isn't brand-spanking new, then I always go on FanFare, and I read the comments, and then I basically never comment myself, because it's clear that the thread is moribund and no one else will ever see it. It's not like everyone stopped giving a shit about the movie; people watch older movies all the time, it's just that the only way to find them is with a search, and by that point the threads may as well be read-only.
There's a ton of great stuff here; lots of people have said interesting things, posted cool links, and there's potential for discussion and debate, but because the threads freeze up when they fall off the front page, it doesn't happen.
It would be a ton of work to put in a recommendation system that helps people see things they would be interested in -- although it would be great!
So here are my two proposals:
1). The "My FanFare" feature automatically subscribed me to Top Chef when I made new posts for it; could this be extended to automatically subscribe people to shows/movies they comment on? To help bring people back when there are new comments.
2). Could a bot be created to semi-randomly re-post movies back in the queue as if they were new posts? Put a criteria on them; one a day, movies that are at least x years old and have y or more comments or something. Curated would be better, if more work. But it's clear that especially for older movies the only time people think to comment on them is if they're on the front page of FanFare. Reboosting them would bring them back into the conversation occasionally without drowning out the site, and might help create a culture where people comment on older posts, since they may wind up part of the conversation again.
posted by Superilla at 11:30 PM on June 15, 2023 [21 favorites]
There is definitely a wide gap between Metafilter’s self image and the regular lack of kindness displayed here.
This may be true, I'm not trying to deny anyone's experience of the site, but there is a similar gulf between the terrible place full of attackers with verbal daggers looming on the shadows waiting for the thinest excuse to attack that I often see described in threads like these, and the metafilter I experience, for example.
Mefi isn't all kindness and love and rainbows at all times, but it isn't a cesspit or a walk on eggshells in a minefield either.
posted by Dysk at 11:43 PM on June 15, 2023 [13 favorites]
This may be true, I'm not trying to deny anyone's experience of the site, but there is a similar gulf between the terrible place full of attackers with verbal daggers looming on the shadows waiting for the thinest excuse to attack that I often see described in threads like these, and the metafilter I experience, for example.
Mefi isn't all kindness and love and rainbows at all times, but it isn't a cesspit or a walk on eggshells in a minefield either.
posted by Dysk at 11:43 PM on June 15, 2023 [13 favorites]
I read the comments [on old FanFare threads], and then I basically never comment myself, because it's clear that the thread is moribund and no one else will ever see it.
I still think an easy, intermediate solution with next to zero development time is to make FanFare's non-obvious but very existent Recent Comments view the default, ideally enabling new posts that don't have comments yet to also show up in that view. I use that view and I see the comments that people make on old posts all the time (many of which do indeed say things like "no one will ever see this comment but...")
Again, even if it's not a perfect solution/design, it is an easily achievable intermediate step that could realistically be implemented in a matter of days or less even with our minimal resources, and would make FanFare participation a lot more discoverable.
posted by trig at 12:31 AM on June 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
I still think an easy, intermediate solution with next to zero development time is to make FanFare's non-obvious but very existent Recent Comments view the default, ideally enabling new posts that don't have comments yet to also show up in that view. I use that view and I see the comments that people make on old posts all the time (many of which do indeed say things like "no one will ever see this comment but...")
Again, even if it's not a perfect solution/design, it is an easily achievable intermediate step that could realistically be implemented in a matter of days or less even with our minimal resources, and would make FanFare participation a lot more discoverable.
posted by trig at 12:31 AM on June 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
So, the reason I brought up putting the source on Github (which it is, just not viewable) is for all the things like these great ideas for Fanfare that frimble, busy as they are, is realistically never going to have time to do… but if there were a few people who really were passionate about a set of changes and they were either capable of building it or generated enough excitement to get someone capable, then they’d have the ability to code it and submit a pull request for frimble to approve and merge as part of the next build / test / deploy cycle. Like, ideally the bulk of frimble’s job eventually becomes gatekeeping the release branch and performing the merge/build/test cycle.
And the ability for the community to rapidly build out new features that excite them means that the velocity of changes to the site is - if we get a healthy process in place and if a small pool of developers coheres - in lockstep with the rate at which the people using those subsites feel the need for change. In a sense it means becoming collectively responsible for meeting our own needs and desires.
And that’s why I think this is actually the single most important thing frimble could be doing - because if it turns out community assistance fails to cohere then they’ve lost relatively little time switching to a public depot (in terms of required work there are at minimum some input sanitization and security components that may need to be compartmentalized and remain in the private depot). Whereas if it takes off… the site could suddenly find itself with several frimbles. Or half a dozen frimbles and another dozen quarter-frimbles pitching in occasionally.
But this is Metafilter so there is a complication: how do we handle features that only a few people want? It would suck for them to build it and find out it will never be merged. Bugfixes would go through as a matter of course, but significant alterations that change the look and feel of the site? How do we decide? Post a banner on the subsite in question for a pending community vote on a potential major new feature?
So outside frimble, it seems like the next step for site leadership (whether that’s jessamyn, the mods, or elected but no longer officially serving community reps) would be a MetaTalk thread about what the process for discussing (possibly voting?) proposed new *significant* changes looks like. What’s our process for making an idea that comes up in MetaTalk into a formal community pitch and discussion/consensus thread? Do those go on MetaTalk? A new subsite called MetaBuilder?
How do we formally resolve one of these freaking threads into approved for development pending features? So that people can work on something substantial with relative assurance that good work will very likely be approved after a couple of iterations?
I feel like however long it would take frimble to prep the codebase for transition to public depot, it’s going to take all of us at least that long to hash out the process for turning ideas into pitches into tentative community approval into code into features.
So could we, like, have one of those threads soon?
(Apologies for overlong insomnia comment, but I think this is potentially really freaking important)
posted by Ryvar at 1:44 AM on June 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
And the ability for the community to rapidly build out new features that excite them means that the velocity of changes to the site is - if we get a healthy process in place and if a small pool of developers coheres - in lockstep with the rate at which the people using those subsites feel the need for change. In a sense it means becoming collectively responsible for meeting our own needs and desires.
And that’s why I think this is actually the single most important thing frimble could be doing - because if it turns out community assistance fails to cohere then they’ve lost relatively little time switching to a public depot (in terms of required work there are at minimum some input sanitization and security components that may need to be compartmentalized and remain in the private depot). Whereas if it takes off… the site could suddenly find itself with several frimbles. Or half a dozen frimbles and another dozen quarter-frimbles pitching in occasionally.
But this is Metafilter so there is a complication: how do we handle features that only a few people want? It would suck for them to build it and find out it will never be merged. Bugfixes would go through as a matter of course, but significant alterations that change the look and feel of the site? How do we decide? Post a banner on the subsite in question for a pending community vote on a potential major new feature?
So outside frimble, it seems like the next step for site leadership (whether that’s jessamyn, the mods, or elected but no longer officially serving community reps) would be a MetaTalk thread about what the process for discussing (possibly voting?) proposed new *significant* changes looks like. What’s our process for making an idea that comes up in MetaTalk into a formal community pitch and discussion/consensus thread? Do those go on MetaTalk? A new subsite called MetaBuilder?
How do we formally resolve one of these freaking threads into approved for development pending features? So that people can work on something substantial with relative assurance that good work will very likely be approved after a couple of iterations?
I feel like however long it would take frimble to prep the codebase for transition to public depot, it’s going to take all of us at least that long to hash out the process for turning ideas into pitches into tentative community approval into code into features.
So could we, like, have one of those threads soon?
(Apologies for overlong insomnia comment, but I think this is potentially really freaking important)
posted by Ryvar at 1:44 AM on June 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
Maaaaaan, I really need to have the site's code audited for security flaws before the general public can view it. There's too much personal information that users have chosen to not share, for me to want any rando identity thief to have a shot at it.
But taking off my SANS sash, and putting on the one that says "user," having the source code available might encourage folks to build plugins that work well for some of the features requested above. (As long as they can use Cold Fusion or Perl4 or whatever language it's all still written in.....)
posted by wenestvedt at 4:02 AM on June 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
But taking off my SANS sash, and putting on the one that says "user," having the source code available might encourage folks to build plugins that work well for some of the features requested above. (As long as they can use Cold Fusion or Perl4 or whatever language it's all still written in.....)
posted by wenestvedt at 4:02 AM on June 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
I am not sure but is there not an intermediate position between closed and fully public on GitHub? Like why can't frimble and jessamyn just invite in those specific people who have volunteered and have a MF history, are known entities?
posted by Meatbomb at 4:35 AM on June 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 4:35 AM on June 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
I’m very slow at watching movies and tv, so I often come to Fanfare posts late. I still make comments, if only as a sort of public memory aide for my immediate reactions. Since I check Recent Activity pretty often, I see occasional comments and a favorite or two (which I interpret not as agreement but a little wave that someone has seen it), and that’s nice.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:41 AM on June 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:41 AM on June 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
How do we formally resolve one of these freaking threads into approved for development pending features?
Metafilter does have a simple voting option. It requires frimble or mods to plug in the question and options once they've been decided, but that's not a big deal.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:44 AM on June 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Metafilter does have a simple voting option. It requires frimble or mods to plug in the question and options once they've been decided, but that's not a big deal.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 4:44 AM on June 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I like a boring, old-school, black type on a white screen.
I have had the black on white here on MeFi for so long that I had forgotten there was any different option, except perhaps the blue when I was signed out.
Come to think of it though, I think I originally picked that theme so that I could read MeFi at work without being so obvious. Perhaps now that I don't do that anymore I should inject some more color into my life.
posted by caddis at 5:07 AM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Same! And just so you know, that is an option here on MeFi."
I have had the black on white here on MeFi for so long that I had forgotten there was any different option, except perhaps the blue when I was signed out.
Come to think of it though, I think I originally picked that theme so that I could read MeFi at work without being so obvious. Perhaps now that I don't do that anymore I should inject some more color into my life.
posted by caddis at 5:07 AM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I just want to add to the chorus of, Reddit and Metafilter fill different needs for me. Reddit is "I want to know about specific thing" and Metafilter is "what's good today?"
posted by joycehealy at 6:02 AM on June 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by joycehealy at 6:02 AM on June 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm old-fashioned and like simplicity and so for most of my internet life I've not been a fan of threaded comments. But the past couple of years – mostly, I think, through reading Reddit – I've come to appreciate how much better they can be.
For FPPs and MetaTalk I think they'd help a lot, given how many comments they get, and how many simultaneous conversations can happen (or how many more could happen if threaded comments were in place; often it feels like I've missed my chance to reply to someone because it was 40 comments further up the page).
But for Ask, where back-and-forth isn't allowed, I wouldn't see any benefit. Unless that rule was changed/relaxed.
The downside with threaded comments, for me, is it's harder to keep up with new comments among many threads.
--
Also yes to upvotes and private bookmarking.
And, Reddit's ability for posts to be marked as announcements and/or sticky would be very useful for staff on occasion I expect.
And an improved text input field would be so, so nice. I can see that adding a blockquote button is a bit more complex than the existing ones (being a block-level HTML tag, rather than inline), but there are so many highly configurable drop-in, disable-able, wysiwyg editors available these days.
posted by fabius at 6:54 AM on June 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
For FPPs and MetaTalk I think they'd help a lot, given how many comments they get, and how many simultaneous conversations can happen (or how many more could happen if threaded comments were in place; often it feels like I've missed my chance to reply to someone because it was 40 comments further up the page).
But for Ask, where back-and-forth isn't allowed, I wouldn't see any benefit. Unless that rule was changed/relaxed.
The downside with threaded comments, for me, is it's harder to keep up with new comments among many threads.
--
Also yes to upvotes and private bookmarking.
And, Reddit's ability for posts to be marked as announcements and/or sticky would be very useful for staff on occasion I expect.
And an improved text input field would be so, so nice. I can see that adding a blockquote button is a bit more complex than the existing ones (being a block-level HTML tag, rather than inline), but there are so many highly configurable drop-in, disable-able, wysiwyg editors available these days.
posted by fabius at 6:54 AM on June 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are lots of changes that I personally would like, or imagine would help, but they’re not ever going to happen. Since threading and a downvoting system are on those lists, I’d instead support changing the favorite default to not visible and making them private/anonymous. This would be a fairly simple change and I think promote the sort of serious conversation MF is supposed to be aiming for.
posted by skewed at 7:18 AM on June 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by skewed at 7:18 AM on June 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am not sure but is there not an intermediate position between closed and fully public on GitHub?
The Unreal Engine model is actually a pretty fantastic midpoint in this way. Source is not-public on Github and to get access you have to create an account on their platform, link it to your github account, and then click a button to request access to the source - which hits you with the shrinkwrap license for “don’t use our stuff on non-Unreal projects, pay us 12% of what your Unreal projects make after your first million bucks, go have fun” and if you agree you get added to the EpicGames/UnrealEngine/ Github depot.
It’s clean, simple, gives millions of people access but not without agreeing to their royalties system. Every biannual point release has pull requests from a couple hundred developers outside Epic, and the occasional mid-size feature. Major features / rearchitecting almost always comes from within Epic itself.
The usual Github “contributors can vote on pull requests/every pull request is also a public conversation thread” applies. I’ve been one of 5 users who helped maintain/update a pull request essential for Minecraft-style voxels across 8 point releases (over 4 years) before Epic decided to merge it into Release. And I don’t blame them because it added a single extra if branch to the sacred ultra-optimized draw call code, but that experience is why I was thinking along the lines of “how do you handle cases where someone’s niche has a very, very tiny impact on the 95% of the userbase who couldn’t care less?”
But until Epic approved the pull request, it was still available for anyone else who wanted to do serious voxel work to merge into their own fork, and once Epic realized they needed the same if branch at that exact same critical point for a different feature of their own, they merged the whole request.
And while the above is somewhat a recapitulation of how Github works, my point is the specific way Epic uses it is a really good system for balancing the competing needs of Epic’s inhouse specialists and hundreds of thousands of active third-party users. It scales well and is just a really good deal for all parties involved.
posted by Ryvar at 7:32 AM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Unreal Engine model is actually a pretty fantastic midpoint in this way. Source is not-public on Github and to get access you have to create an account on their platform, link it to your github account, and then click a button to request access to the source - which hits you with the shrinkwrap license for “don’t use our stuff on non-Unreal projects, pay us 12% of what your Unreal projects make after your first million bucks, go have fun” and if you agree you get added to the EpicGames/UnrealEngine/ Github depot.
It’s clean, simple, gives millions of people access but not without agreeing to their royalties system. Every biannual point release has pull requests from a couple hundred developers outside Epic, and the occasional mid-size feature. Major features / rearchitecting almost always comes from within Epic itself.
The usual Github “contributors can vote on pull requests/every pull request is also a public conversation thread” applies. I’ve been one of 5 users who helped maintain/update a pull request essential for Minecraft-style voxels across 8 point releases (over 4 years) before Epic decided to merge it into Release. And I don’t blame them because it added a single extra if branch to the sacred ultra-optimized draw call code, but that experience is why I was thinking along the lines of “how do you handle cases where someone’s niche has a very, very tiny impact on the 95% of the userbase who couldn’t care less?”
But until Epic approved the pull request, it was still available for anyone else who wanted to do serious voxel work to merge into their own fork, and once Epic realized they needed the same if branch at that exact same critical point for a different feature of their own, they merged the whole request.
And while the above is somewhat a recapitulation of how Github works, my point is the specific way Epic uses it is a really good system for balancing the competing needs of Epic’s inhouse specialists and hundreds of thousands of active third-party users. It scales well and is just a really good deal for all parties involved.
posted by Ryvar at 7:32 AM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
So rather than fretting over making the "perfect" post, people do something they find fun.
I think this is the way to go, especially since so many of the technical changes are on hold. I've been here 17 years and made 1 post. The standards are high, and that's great for a lot of reasons. But if this were a dive bar, there wouldn't be a prohibition on doubles, for example. People would talk about the same damn thing over and over, riff on dumb shit, etc. That definitely happens here, but the culture and requirements of FPP strongly discourage that. Having a way to encourage more low effort posts without entirely degrading the value of the front page would be wonderful.
posted by Mavri at 7:55 AM on June 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think this is the way to go, especially since so many of the technical changes are on hold. I've been here 17 years and made 1 post. The standards are high, and that's great for a lot of reasons. But if this were a dive bar, there wouldn't be a prohibition on doubles, for example. People would talk about the same damn thing over and over, riff on dumb shit, etc. That definitely happens here, but the culture and requirements of FPP strongly discourage that. Having a way to encourage more low effort posts without entirely degrading the value of the front page would be wonderful.
posted by Mavri at 7:55 AM on June 16, 2023 [10 favorites]
Reddit doesn't seem to have the problem of people being afraid to create posts. Metafilter could stand to adjust its culture so that people aren't intimidated to do that.
This resonates a lot. Similar to Mavri, I've been here 18 years and only made 6 FPPs on the Blue. My last one was over four years ago. It IS intimidating!
posted by solotoro at 10:32 AM on June 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
This resonates a lot. Similar to Mavri, I've been here 18 years and only made 6 FPPs on the Blue. My last one was over four years ago. It IS intimidating!
posted by solotoro at 10:32 AM on June 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
It IS intimidating!
Agreed, like when someone finds that a linked source once published a cancelled person, therefore the site is toxic. Two others instantly agree, as a courtesy perhaps. Labels come out. Their souls are cleansed, the sin is yours to beg forgiveness. Also known as hypervigilance.
posted by Brian B. at 11:38 AM on June 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
Agreed, like when someone finds that a linked source once published a cancelled person, therefore the site is toxic. Two others instantly agree, as a courtesy perhaps. Labels come out. Their souls are cleansed, the sin is yours to beg forgiveness. Also known as hypervigilance.
posted by Brian B. at 11:38 AM on June 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
Also known as hypervigilance.
Well the potential over-the-top response inspires hypervigilance, yes. I think that's what you meant?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:01 PM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well the potential over-the-top response inspires hypervigilance, yes. I think that's what you meant?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:01 PM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well the potential over-the-top response inspires hypervigilance, yes. I think that's what you meant?
I think I see your point, the hypervigilance is in the response, thus intimidating to a poster who sees a minefield out there.
posted by Brian B. at 12:11 PM on June 16, 2023
I think I see your point, the hypervigilance is in the response, thus intimidating to a poster who sees a minefield out there.
posted by Brian B. at 12:11 PM on June 16, 2023
I started using Reddit in the last year and it has increasingly taken up my time because I can read new posts about things I'm interested in. And the reason for that is because so many people are on Reddit posting about things that interest them some portion of them are posting about things that interest me as well. As opposed to here where there's maybe 10 FPPs in a day and even if half of them are interesting to me that's still only 5 FPPs.
I think the thing that we should learn is that the site probably would be better if it had lots more people and figure out a way to make that happen.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:13 PM on June 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think the thing that we should learn is that the site probably would be better if it had lots more people and figure out a way to make that happen.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:13 PM on June 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Reddit doesn't seem to have the problem of people being afraid to create posts. Metafilter could stand to adjust its culture so that people aren't intimidated to do that.
Because I know that on Reddit, I can go back to my original post and edit it to add "Hey, I used a word that I wasn't aware was a slur/linked to a source that wasn't legitimate/completely misinterpreted the meaning of that article, thank you all for pointing that out. I'm sorry. I redacted it here and won't be doing it again."
I can't do that on MetaFilter. I can add it as a comment, but many people are going to happily skip right to the bottom to point out the error. Over and over and over. And my only recourse would be to ask a mod to delete the post.
posted by kimberussell at 1:17 PM on June 16, 2023 [27 favorites]
Because I know that on Reddit, I can go back to my original post and edit it to add "Hey, I used a word that I wasn't aware was a slur/linked to a source that wasn't legitimate/completely misinterpreted the meaning of that article, thank you all for pointing that out. I'm sorry. I redacted it here and won't be doing it again."
I can't do that on MetaFilter. I can add it as a comment, but many people are going to happily skip right to the bottom to point out the error. Over and over and over. And my only recourse would be to ask a mod to delete the post.
posted by kimberussell at 1:17 PM on June 16, 2023 [27 favorites]
I think the thing that we should learn is that the site probably would be better if it had lots more people and figure out a way to make that happen.
This. More users, more content, more activity, and probably more moderation activity. I think reducing the sign-up barriers could be done without significant technical input. Trim the language on the sign up page, have a "I have read and agree to the community guidelines" button, and go. I'd also propose getting rid of the 1 week FPP waiting period - don't mods get a notification when a new user makes their first post or something like that anyway?
posted by Think_Long at 1:37 PM on June 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
This. More users, more content, more activity, and probably more moderation activity. I think reducing the sign-up barriers could be done without significant technical input. Trim the language on the sign up page, have a "I have read and agree to the community guidelines" button, and go. I'd also propose getting rid of the 1 week FPP waiting period - don't mods get a notification when a new user makes their first post or something like that anyway?
posted by Think_Long at 1:37 PM on June 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
From the latest Zelda post on the Blue I've learned there's a subreddit called HyruleEngineering that apparently has 103,000 members. The game only came out a month ago. I'm sure a portion of the members are bots or people that joined and then promptly forgot about it but that's still a huge amount of people posting about a specific aspect of a video game. MetaFilter can't be that, we're the best of the web not the web itself, but with more users some of those will be active and make posts, and maybe a few of those will be like Fizz and make a high-quality post pretty much every day, and then that's one more reason to come to MetaFilter.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:02 PM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:02 PM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I for one appreciate the kind of all or nothing, no subs or filtering aspect of MeFi. There's a Dadaesque nature to MeFi that I like. What I see is often simply a result of timing and chance about when I sign on.
posted by brookeb at 9:25 PM on June 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by brookeb at 9:25 PM on June 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Herewith my annual suggestion that if we want Metafilter to adopt the kind of new features suggested here, we should consider a heavily-customised version of the open source Discourse forum software. Discourse is extremely secure, highly accessible, very customisable, well-maintained, and could easily support lots of Fanfare subcategories, images, easier posting (especially on mobile), better ability to reply to specific comments, editable posts, 2FA login, etc.
I do get that a lot of people are more attached to the existing Metafilter interface and appearance, and to be honest if that's the majority then it makes sense to not change it and just try and make improvements on the existing codebase. But having had this discussion for several years and few to none of those technical improvements happening, I'm not optimistic that'll change in the coming years, even with opening up the Github.
posted by adrianhon at 4:09 AM on June 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
I do get that a lot of people are more attached to the existing Metafilter interface and appearance, and to be honest if that's the majority then it makes sense to not change it and just try and make improvements on the existing codebase. But having had this discussion for several years and few to none of those technical improvements happening, I'm not optimistic that'll change in the coming years, even with opening up the Github.
posted by adrianhon at 4:09 AM on June 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
Metafilter: a part of the old web that still mostly works and hasn't been run into the ground by a billionaire
posted by amtho at 4:32 AM on June 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by amtho at 4:32 AM on June 17, 2023 [15 favorites]
Thank you, everyone, who has shared what they would like to see MeFi take from Reddit to be a better community.
Thank you, Jessamyn and Brandon Blatcher for discussing in a timely manner some of these changes. (If I missed a mod saying something, I apologize.)
My VERY rough draft of thoughts:
1. MeFi is not Reddit. For me, they fill vastly different needs.
2. As both are on the web, both can learn from each other to have a better user experience.
3. I am a hard no on threaded comments. If it is an option, and not the default option, great. But, threaded comments (figuratively) break my brain. They very seriously make it harder for me to process websites. (If you feel like it, MeMail how threaded comments work better for you. I am happy to learn.)
4. SO MANY LURKERS! I am absolutely happy for names I have never seen before and have been around for a long time. THANK YOU for sharing how you feel about MeFi.
5. Which may lead to the point of Bottlecap's post? As others have mentioned, MeFi can not be the nicest place around. It can be very insular. That's largely the reason it was over a decade (at least) that I joined. And, if you are bored enough to find my first comment it was about melting blue cheese on a burger and I was incredibly nervous about it. Not saying that Reddit would have handled it better, but we could use some self reflection here.
6. Fanfare is awesome. I would love a primer to use it better (I'll gofundyou DOT). Just like Jessamyn made AskMe an integral part of the site, FanFare can be so much more than it currently is, merely because people don't realize it's potential.
I'm not leaving. Thank you, Bottlecap for a positive post for us to discuss.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:07 AM on June 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Thank you, Jessamyn and Brandon Blatcher for discussing in a timely manner some of these changes. (If I missed a mod saying something, I apologize.)
My VERY rough draft of thoughts:
1. MeFi is not Reddit. For me, they fill vastly different needs.
2. As both are on the web, both can learn from each other to have a better user experience.
3. I am a hard no on threaded comments. If it is an option, and not the default option, great. But, threaded comments (figuratively) break my brain. They very seriously make it harder for me to process websites. (If you feel like it, MeMail how threaded comments work better for you. I am happy to learn.)
4. SO MANY LURKERS! I am absolutely happy for names I have never seen before and have been around for a long time. THANK YOU for sharing how you feel about MeFi.
5. Which may lead to the point of Bottlecap's post? As others have mentioned, MeFi can not be the nicest place around. It can be very insular. That's largely the reason it was over a decade (at least) that I joined. And, if you are bored enough to find my first comment it was about melting blue cheese on a burger and I was incredibly nervous about it. Not saying that Reddit would have handled it better, but we could use some self reflection here.
6. Fanfare is awesome. I would love a primer to use it better (I'll gofundyou DOT). Just like Jessamyn made AskMe an integral part of the site, FanFare can be so much more than it currently is, merely because people don't realize it's potential.
I'm not leaving. Thank you, Bottlecap for a positive post for us to discuss.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:07 AM on June 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ryvar: there are some reasons why I will never be able to bring myself to pay someone else to shut me up.
That's not what I'm paying for. I'm paying to have this space where I can speak (and also listen).
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:34 AM on June 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
That's not what I'm paying for. I'm paying to have this space where I can speak (and also listen).
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:34 AM on June 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
we should consider a heavily-customised version of the open source Discourse forum software.
I'm in the throes of setting up a discourse instance for reasons not irrelevant to the topic of this thread, and I gotta say, it's basically unfathomable to me that it could work as a metafilter replacement? Maybe with a massive amount of development time that doesn't currently exist, but I'm just not seeing a practical path from a default discourse install (which I currently have up and running and am working to customize) to anything remotely resembling metafilter, given available plugins, themes, etc. (I'm still even not entirely convinced it'll work as a replacement for the old closed phpbb that it will be more or less attempting to revive.)
posted by advil at 9:19 AM on June 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm in the throes of setting up a discourse instance for reasons not irrelevant to the topic of this thread, and I gotta say, it's basically unfathomable to me that it could work as a metafilter replacement? Maybe with a massive amount of development time that doesn't currently exist, but I'm just not seeing a practical path from a default discourse install (which I currently have up and running and am working to customize) to anything remotely resembling metafilter, given available plugins, themes, etc. (I'm still even not entirely convinced it'll work as a replacement for the old closed phpbb that it will be more or less attempting to revive.)
posted by advil at 9:19 AM on June 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Advil: It depends on how similar you want it to look, but I've run a Discourse forum for several years with thousands of users and you'd be surprised what you can get done. I've seen themes that are very blog and news-site like, including showing the full content of the post with para breaks and hyperlinks in the category views.
I don't want to derail this thread or to claim that it's a five minute job – it certainly isn't – but there would be a lot of benefits if you could design a custom theme people liked enough.
posted by adrianhon at 9:29 AM on June 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't want to derail this thread or to claim that it's a five minute job – it certainly isn't – but there would be a lot of benefits if you could design a custom theme people liked enough.
posted by adrianhon at 9:29 AM on June 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dysk described why I don't like threaded comments better than I could, echoing my own experience with Reddit's.
posted by Rash at 9:33 AM on June 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Rash at 9:33 AM on June 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I thought the lack of threaded comments was quirky back in 2006 when I first became aware of this site. I'd say it's a core part of MeFi identity by now. Sites with threaded comments are a dime a dozen, easy to find - but if you want that hand-rolled, 90's blog style where each new comment is just appended to the end of the file that contains the web page - there's really only one place for that: Metafilter.com !
posted by some loser at 10:58 AM on June 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by some loser at 10:58 AM on June 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Just as a data point: I stopped participating here a couple of years ago for two reasons. One was a growing irritation with the way the site was handling trans topics and trans users. I don't know if that has improved, I only just got back. The other was a general sense that cruelty and meanness were rising; I just didn't feel welcome in the way I used to, and didn't feel like people were giving each other the kind of assumption of good faith they used to. Again whether that has changed in the last couple of years, one way or the other, I don't know.
Reddit is large, it contains multitudes. There are parts of the site that are absolutely brutal toward trans folk, for example. I avoid those areas unless I feel ready for battle. (And sometimes it's possible to correct a misapprehension or shift a viewpoint here and there, though it hardly ever seems worth the fight unless you were already looking for a fight.) There are parts of the site where cruelty and meanness saturate every post and comment. I just don't go to those places. But the site is large enough, and segmented well enough, that you can curate your own experience and spend time in places where you can feel welcome and enjoy participating, despite the existence of absolutely toxic garbage elsewhere on the site.
Threaded comments have a lot to offer but it seems hard to imagine Metafilter with threaded comments. There've been a lot of small changes here over the years but it's been very much a Ship of Theseus thing, nothing structurally about the site has made it feel any less like Metafilter to me. But threaded comments would be like pulling off the wooden hull and the masts and strapping what remains to a hovercraft. I'm not sure Theseus would recognize it.
Fanfare had the potential to scratch a lot of the itch that drives people to Reddit, i.e., I just read this book / watched this movie / played this game and I want to talk about it. My experience up to a couple of years ago was much like others have noted, though: discussion is often brief and limited, and if you come back to something after the main discussion has ended there seems little point in adding anything. Finding creative ways to address that might help, but part of the problem here is just one of scale. More than 400 million people visit Reddit every month (or did, at least). I don't know how Metafilter compares but I'm going to go out on a (very thick and sturdy, remarkably robust, positively trunklike) limb and say our volume here is at least a couple of orders of magnitude smaller. I don't know that Metafilter has ever had the critical mass required to let a niche conversation persist beyond the initial brief flurry of participation.
I'm not sure where I'm going from here personally. I came back here because interesting things were going on and I wanted to talk about them (or at least hear people talk about them) in a place that wasn't Reddit. I've also spun up accounts on kbin and Tildes, still trying to get a sense for what those places are like. I'll probably lurk here for a while and consider where and how (and whether?) I should be spending my time online. But if there do turn out to be ways we can learn from Reddit here that end up making the place feel more like the home it did for me originally... well. I'd like to see that, sure.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 3:26 PM on June 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Reddit is large, it contains multitudes. There are parts of the site that are absolutely brutal toward trans folk, for example. I avoid those areas unless I feel ready for battle. (And sometimes it's possible to correct a misapprehension or shift a viewpoint here and there, though it hardly ever seems worth the fight unless you were already looking for a fight.) There are parts of the site where cruelty and meanness saturate every post and comment. I just don't go to those places. But the site is large enough, and segmented well enough, that you can curate your own experience and spend time in places where you can feel welcome and enjoy participating, despite the existence of absolutely toxic garbage elsewhere on the site.
Threaded comments have a lot to offer but it seems hard to imagine Metafilter with threaded comments. There've been a lot of small changes here over the years but it's been very much a Ship of Theseus thing, nothing structurally about the site has made it feel any less like Metafilter to me. But threaded comments would be like pulling off the wooden hull and the masts and strapping what remains to a hovercraft. I'm not sure Theseus would recognize it.
Fanfare had the potential to scratch a lot of the itch that drives people to Reddit, i.e., I just read this book / watched this movie / played this game and I want to talk about it. My experience up to a couple of years ago was much like others have noted, though: discussion is often brief and limited, and if you come back to something after the main discussion has ended there seems little point in adding anything. Finding creative ways to address that might help, but part of the problem here is just one of scale. More than 400 million people visit Reddit every month (or did, at least). I don't know how Metafilter compares but I'm going to go out on a (very thick and sturdy, remarkably robust, positively trunklike) limb and say our volume here is at least a couple of orders of magnitude smaller. I don't know that Metafilter has ever had the critical mass required to let a niche conversation persist beyond the initial brief flurry of participation.
I'm not sure where I'm going from here personally. I came back here because interesting things were going on and I wanted to talk about them (or at least hear people talk about them) in a place that wasn't Reddit. I've also spun up accounts on kbin and Tildes, still trying to get a sense for what those places are like. I'll probably lurk here for a while and consider where and how (and whether?) I should be spending my time online. But if there do turn out to be ways we can learn from Reddit here that end up making the place feel more like the home it did for me originally... well. I'd like to see that, sure.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 3:26 PM on June 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think the lack of threaded comments makes the site much easier to comprehend and works well with the small user base. If the user base was huge, the volume of comments would be difficult to scroll through and the condensing properties of threading might be necessary, but that's just not the case and seems unlikely to be a problem in the future even if the base doubles or something.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 3:34 PM on June 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 3:34 PM on June 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
One great thing about the Reddit subs I've seen: there is a clear link to rules/standards/what's expected at the top of many subreddits. I see this in the form of a pinned comment (I'm still a Reddit lookyloo, so pardon my terminology please).
The pinned comment format also means that they can be a dynamic set of rules/standards, although inertia probably means they don't change that often.
If they do change, though, they're *right there* at the top, and the bit of text visible as the link would change too -- alerting anyone who sees that.
Another helpful thing: Subreddits are so specialized that it's probably easier to depend on folks having common contexts, at least in some of them.
I think I get into trouble wanting one kind of discussion/interaction in threads when others want a different kind. I want problem solving, exploration, asking direct questions so I/we can learn more to do more and communicate more completely, maybe eventually come together in some shared understanding and new insights. Others want this, too, I think, but a lot of people want something else: feeling heard when they feel unheard elsewhere; venting; knowing that others are experiencing the world the same way they are because it's just awful out there, and even worse if it feels like everyone else you see in "real life" or the media won't listen and doesn't respect you or even hates you. All valid reasons to connect! But... sometimes I want the other thing.
I'm not saying Reddit addresses this particular dichotomy. Just that cultural/interactional guidelines in general might be super helpful, and that featuring them more prominently might lead to interesting/positive results.
there are some reasons why I will never be able to bring myself to pay someone else to shut me up.
There are some reasons why I WOULD LOVE to pay someone to shut me up when it's needed. Especially when that person will just do it without comment or without making me feel bad.
posted by amtho at 4:16 PM on June 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
The pinned comment format also means that they can be a dynamic set of rules/standards, although inertia probably means they don't change that often.
If they do change, though, they're *right there* at the top, and the bit of text visible as the link would change too -- alerting anyone who sees that.
Another helpful thing: Subreddits are so specialized that it's probably easier to depend on folks having common contexts, at least in some of them.
I think I get into trouble wanting one kind of discussion/interaction in threads when others want a different kind. I want problem solving, exploration, asking direct questions so I/we can learn more to do more and communicate more completely, maybe eventually come together in some shared understanding and new insights. Others want this, too, I think, but a lot of people want something else: feeling heard when they feel unheard elsewhere; venting; knowing that others are experiencing the world the same way they are because it's just awful out there, and even worse if it feels like everyone else you see in "real life" or the media won't listen and doesn't respect you or even hates you. All valid reasons to connect! But... sometimes I want the other thing.
I'm not saying Reddit addresses this particular dichotomy. Just that cultural/interactional guidelines in general might be super helpful, and that featuring them more prominently might lead to interesting/positive results.
there are some reasons why I will never be able to bring myself to pay someone else to shut me up.
There are some reasons why I WOULD LOVE to pay someone to shut me up when it's needed. Especially when that person will just do it without comment or without making me feel bad.
posted by amtho at 4:16 PM on June 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
FWIW I do know that Metafilter has standards of conduct / interaction. I read them when I joined, I think there's a link at the bottom of each page or something. But I, as a human, do not refer to them regularly. I don't think about them consciously. A little nudge, or a couple of nudges (different and shorter text for different contexts, more prominent / top link, re-focusing of the way they're communicated, occasional revisiting, or maybe global MeFi standards as is plus localized/contextual standards that are shorter) might make a difference in how I think about them.
posted by amtho at 4:21 PM on June 17, 2023
posted by amtho at 4:21 PM on June 17, 2023
Re: making posts. A terrific journalist in Maine died, a good article was written. I shared it. Didn't warrant much discussion. Got nice support.
A. Make posts that you think are valuable, interesting funny, weird, whimsical and/or important. Don't worry about the people who are easily annoyed. I have learned a lot by hanging out here. I miss a lot by not reading a lot of posts. There's room for the things you care about.
B. When people make posts, don't be a jerk. If there's a problem, work with a mod to address it. If someone needs formatting or grammar help, be gentle.
86% of problems are avoidable by trying to not be a jerk.
posted by theora55 at 4:48 PM on June 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
A. Make posts that you think are valuable, interesting funny, weird, whimsical and/or important. Don't worry about the people who are easily annoyed. I have learned a lot by hanging out here. I miss a lot by not reading a lot of posts. There's room for the things you care about.
B. When people make posts, don't be a jerk. If there's a problem, work with a mod to address it. If someone needs formatting or grammar help, be gentle.
86% of problems are avoidable by trying to not be a jerk.
posted by theora55 at 4:48 PM on June 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
Mod note: ust as a data point: I stopped participating here a couple of years ago for two reasons. One was a growing irritation with the way the site was handling trans topics and trans users. I don't know if that has improved, I only just got back.
Hi and welcome back! It's been a bit bumpy yeah, but as the newest mod I believe the moderation team is on a better path to support trans users and issues, while firmly dealing with any anti-trans comments or users.
FWIW I do know that Metafilter has standards of conduct / interaction. I read them when I joined, I think there's a link at the bottom of each page or something. But I, as a human, do not refer to them regularly.
There's the Guidelines and Content Policy, and they're linked at the bottom of every page. Folks are encouraged to look them over at their leisure!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:07 PM on June 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hi and welcome back! It's been a bit bumpy yeah, but as the newest mod I believe the moderation team is on a better path to support trans users and issues, while firmly dealing with any anti-trans comments or users.
FWIW I do know that Metafilter has standards of conduct / interaction. I read them when I joined, I think there's a link at the bottom of each page or something. But I, as a human, do not refer to them regularly.
There's the Guidelines and Content Policy, and they're linked at the bottom of every page. Folks are encouraged to look them over at their leisure!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:07 PM on June 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here's an interesting datapoint over on cohost. They're one of the several sites that sprung up after Musk's acquisition of Twitter. The post is a little long, but it covers the challenges they've had with revenue, some of which may sound familiar - flat/declining userbase, low "conversion rate," ads don't pay the bills, etc. They're at a different level of maturity than Metafilter, but the alarm bells of "we're going to run out of money in a few months" are the same.
posted by backseatpilot at 6:13 PM on June 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by backseatpilot at 6:13 PM on June 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's the Guidelines and Content Policy, and they're linked at the bottom of every page. Folks are encouraged to look them over at their leisure!
I'm not sure whether you're saying that my comment doesn't make sense because these things are linked at the bottom of every page. To push back against that hypothetical:
I know that those links are there, when I think about it. Thinking about it is not a spontaneous act that happens a lot. On those Reddit subs, having a link to standards at the top where it gets seen consistently means no spontaneous act is required - that reminder is always there and seen (unless people are using some kind of feed thingie that skips it, I suppose - not germane to my point, which is more about "hey this cool idea is cooler than many people might think".)
There was a behavioral economics study that found that people just being reminded that a standard of behavior/morality/not cheating _was a thing_ affected their rate of behaving honorably. We aren't worried about that kind of behavior here, but the idea that being reminded of standards affects behavior might be relevant.
Links at the bottom of the page are invisible the vast majority of the time.
I know that real estate at the top of the page is very finite, especially in the phone age. I'm not 100% suggesting any change, just offering this thought as something to consider when there's time to consider.
posted by amtho at 8:42 PM on June 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure whether you're saying that my comment doesn't make sense because these things are linked at the bottom of every page. To push back against that hypothetical:
I know that those links are there, when I think about it. Thinking about it is not a spontaneous act that happens a lot. On those Reddit subs, having a link to standards at the top where it gets seen consistently means no spontaneous act is required - that reminder is always there and seen (unless people are using some kind of feed thingie that skips it, I suppose - not germane to my point, which is more about "hey this cool idea is cooler than many people might think".)
There was a behavioral economics study that found that people just being reminded that a standard of behavior/morality/not cheating _was a thing_ affected their rate of behaving honorably. We aren't worried about that kind of behavior here, but the idea that being reminded of standards affects behavior might be relevant.
Links at the bottom of the page are invisible the vast majority of the time.
I know that real estate at the top of the page is very finite, especially in the phone age. I'm not 100% suggesting any change, just offering this thought as something to consider when there's time to consider.
posted by amtho at 8:42 PM on June 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm not afraid to start threads here because even the ones that took off the most/worst here were reasonably handled and I have no complaints. But I highly doubt I'd ever start one on Reddit in case it became insanely popular/got insane/got shut down, and even worse, random people started making TikToks about my thread, certain websites turning it into an article on Buzzfeed or BoredPanda or wherever else. I can't even believe it when I see yet another poster say someone made a TikTok about their question. Why the hell is this a thing?
On the one hand, Reddit pre-strike/API drama had more activity going on, so when I was totally bored AF this winter, I kept finding new things to read. I love MeFi, but unless it's megathread time, it's not usually mega super active like that. That and the various subreddits (the ones I read are pretty sane) on topics are useful.
On the other hand, the Reddit discussions get super overwhelming after awhile with thousands of responses or whatever on the popular sites and I can't even keep up with that after awhile. Not to mention if things get crazy enough, the poster has to delete it for their own safety, or the mods shut it down, or the poster starts writing stuff like, "Stop telling me I should kill myself because I asked a question about my mother-in-law trying to poison my child" (or whatever).
I am actually good with threaded discussions, but I do admit it's needed there due to overwhelming numbers of responses. And frankly, I think it's a good there to be able to delete your posts for your own safety, which I ended up having to do when I found out that one of the managers at my work was reading the local subreddit. I never posted there much, but HOO BOY DID I HAVE TO HIDE EVERYTHING I EVER SAID ABOUT WORK IMMIEDIATELY ON ALL OF REDDIT..... this will be a huge problem if she ever discovers Metafilter, which hopefully she won't. At that point, I may have to ask the mods to nuke me from orbit :/
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:41 PM on June 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
On the one hand, Reddit pre-strike/API drama had more activity going on, so when I was totally bored AF this winter, I kept finding new things to read. I love MeFi, but unless it's megathread time, it's not usually mega super active like that. That and the various subreddits (the ones I read are pretty sane) on topics are useful.
On the other hand, the Reddit discussions get super overwhelming after awhile with thousands of responses or whatever on the popular sites and I can't even keep up with that after awhile. Not to mention if things get crazy enough, the poster has to delete it for their own safety, or the mods shut it down, or the poster starts writing stuff like, "Stop telling me I should kill myself because I asked a question about my mother-in-law trying to poison my child" (or whatever).
I am actually good with threaded discussions, but I do admit it's needed there due to overwhelming numbers of responses. And frankly, I think it's a good there to be able to delete your posts for your own safety, which I ended up having to do when I found out that one of the managers at my work was reading the local subreddit. I never posted there much, but HOO BOY DID I HAVE TO HIDE EVERYTHING I EVER SAID ABOUT WORK IMMIEDIATELY ON ALL OF REDDIT..... this will be a huge problem if she ever discovers Metafilter, which hopefully she won't. At that point, I may have to ask the mods to nuke me from orbit :/
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:41 PM on June 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
If one of the issues people are having is finding it intimidating to post because it feels like they'll break some rule, I'm not sure sure constantly having a long rules document shoved in your face is going to make it any more inviting. It kind of plays to the idea that the rules are super strict and many, and you must not fuck it up.
(Personally, I think the rules here are fairly simple, because 95% of them ultimately boil down to "don't be a dick", it's just long because it has to address the various ways you can be a dick. Any kind of good-faith mistake also tends to not be a big deal - you might get some shirty replies, maybe a mod might even delete something. Either way, no big deal, no lasting consequences, nobody has died.)
posted by Dysk at 11:50 PM on June 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
(Personally, I think the rules here are fairly simple, because 95% of them ultimately boil down to "don't be a dick", it's just long because it has to address the various ways you can be a dick. Any kind of good-faith mistake also tends to not be a big deal - you might get some shirty replies, maybe a mod might even delete something. Either way, no big deal, no lasting consequences, nobody has died.)
posted by Dysk at 11:50 PM on June 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think the rules here are fairly simple, because 95% of them ultimately boil down
You're neurotypical?
constantly having a long rules document shoved in your face
Yes, that would be really unpleasant. I was talking about a small link.
posted by amtho at 12:59 AM on June 18, 2023
You're neurotypical?
constantly having a long rules document shoved in your face
Yes, that would be really unpleasant. I was talking about a small link.
posted by amtho at 12:59 AM on June 18, 2023
Just stumbled across this today, I actually think there's one thing that hasn't been discussed here: the age range of this site.
Maybe it's because Brandon Blatcher's recent message to me in MeMail after reading one of my recent comments where I wondered I was one of the youngest MeFites here (born '95 for reference) is still fresh in my mind, where he was curious how I stumbled across this site as a young punk tripping into some lawns. Anyway, reproducing my reply to him:
posted by Pachylad at 1:52 AM on June 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
Maybe it's because Brandon Blatcher's recent message to me in MeMail after reading one of my recent comments where I wondered I was one of the youngest MeFites here (born '95 for reference) is still fresh in my mind, where he was curious how I stumbled across this site as a young punk tripping into some lawns. Anyway, reproducing my reply to him:
Similar to the trend of people searching for '[thing of interest] + Reddit' when they want to grab interesting discussions/opinions in a devolving hellscape overrun by astroturfs/bots/idiots, I noticed that a lot of discussions about topics I was searching for on Google seemed to drift towards this site. The controversy around Beef, and me noticing that there was no discussion here was the impetus that kickstarted me to make my account (give or take that week to wait lol).I've noticed that given the reminiscing of folks here to the 70's-90's as a usual benchmark era, that there's the skewing towards Gen-X/elder millennial, which fits with the 'early-00's forum' culture Metafilter is more indebted to, and that Reddit as one of the few younger Millennial/Zoomer haunts that still pays respect to that sort of similar format (threaded comments and all).
posted by Pachylad at 1:52 AM on June 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
Yes, that would be really unpleasant. I was talking about a small link.
Thing is, a small link would either be unobtrusive (and thus not noticed by the vast majority of users anyway) or it would be in your face, "hey, this place is about rules" all the time.
posted by Dysk at 5:04 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thing is, a small link would either be unobtrusive (and thus not noticed by the vast majority of users anyway) or it would be in your face, "hey, this place is about rules" all the time.
posted by Dysk at 5:04 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Any kind of good-faith mistake also tends to not be a big deal - you might get some shirty replies, maybe a mod might even delete something. Either way, no big deal, no lasting consequences, nobody has died.
I’m sure this applies for some posters but as someone who made a point of doing a post a day for a year, I still found it really disheartening when I got shirty replies, and it’s partly why I don’t post as much now. It doesn’t roll off my back, at least. And because Metafilter has fewer users and fewer posts than in the past, it’s not uncommon for shirty replies to appear high up in the comments, from users who spend a lot of time on the site.
Hardly anyone things their replies are shirty. Usually they are just very critical or nitpicky or “that source is problematic” etc. And I would say Metafilter users are unusually good at writing, for obvious reasons, and so their shirty replies can be very well crafted and especially hard to deal with. On the occasions where I respond to say “actually I did think of that and you’re wrong”, they often disappear, which is just plain rude.
I don’t think there is a good solution other than increasing traffic so the shittiness is spread more thinly across a greater volume of posts; and a greater acceptance that posts don’t need to be perfect (which I think is happening, to be fair).
posted by adrianhon at 6:33 AM on June 18, 2023 [32 favorites]
I’m sure this applies for some posters but as someone who made a point of doing a post a day for a year, I still found it really disheartening when I got shirty replies, and it’s partly why I don’t post as much now. It doesn’t roll off my back, at least. And because Metafilter has fewer users and fewer posts than in the past, it’s not uncommon for shirty replies to appear high up in the comments, from users who spend a lot of time on the site.
Hardly anyone things their replies are shirty. Usually they are just very critical or nitpicky or “that source is problematic” etc. And I would say Metafilter users are unusually good at writing, for obvious reasons, and so their shirty replies can be very well crafted and especially hard to deal with. On the occasions where I respond to say “actually I did think of that and you’re wrong”, they often disappear, which is just plain rude.
I don’t think there is a good solution other than increasing traffic so the shittiness is spread more thinly across a greater volume of posts; and a greater acceptance that posts don’t need to be perfect (which I think is happening, to be fair).
posted by adrianhon at 6:33 AM on June 18, 2023 [32 favorites]
Thing is, a small link would either be unobtrusive (and thus not noticed by the vast majority of users anyway) or it would be in your face, "hey, this place is about rules" all the time.
I disagree.
posted by amtho at 9:10 AM on June 18, 2023
I disagree.
posted by amtho at 9:10 AM on June 18, 2023
Either way, no big deal, no lasting consequences, nobody has died.
This cuts both ways. Big deal or not, there is a transparency issue with secret complaints and public consequences. Highhandedness doesn't go unnoticed to those taught to never apologize for something they didn't do. Not everyone here was behaviorally conditioned by stick-wielding nuns. The previously mentioned boiled-down norms need to be balanced: don't be a dick and don't be a Karen (a moniker I hesitate to use because the Karens I know are polite to a fault).
posted by Brian B. at 9:16 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
This cuts both ways. Big deal or not, there is a transparency issue with secret complaints and public consequences. Highhandedness doesn't go unnoticed to those taught to never apologize for something they didn't do. Not everyone here was behaviorally conditioned by stick-wielding nuns. The previously mentioned boiled-down norms need to be balanced: don't be a dick and don't be a Karen (a moniker I hesitate to use because the Karens I know are polite to a fault).
posted by Brian B. at 9:16 AM on June 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Any kind of good-faith mistake also tends to not be a big deal - you might get some shirty replies, maybe a mod might even delete something. Either way, no big deal, no lasting consequences, nobody has died.
You don't know that. You don't know how much vulnerability or shame a person might be carrying, or how deeply any reprimand might cut, or how intensely people might feel any emotion (some people are apparently biologically more emotional than others, something I just learned).
I would never blame any person for another's emotional response, especially when people are obviously working very very hard to avoid doing harm. But when we have any power to make things better for others, we should think carefully about what course to take.
posted by amtho at 10:06 AM on June 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
You don't know that. You don't know how much vulnerability or shame a person might be carrying, or how deeply any reprimand might cut, or how intensely people might feel any emotion (some people are apparently biologically more emotional than others, something I just learned).
I would never blame any person for another's emotional response, especially when people are obviously working very very hard to avoid doing harm. But when we have any power to make things better for others, we should think carefully about what course to take.
posted by amtho at 10:06 AM on June 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
I really only post in Ask, but I probably visit and skim the site once a week or less now. I used to visit and post more frequently, but I just don't actually enjoy being here that much, and that has nothing to do with how often I visit Reddit.
posted by sm1tten at 3:31 PM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by sm1tten at 3:31 PM on June 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Is there any indication or possibility of any of the proposed changes in this thread happening, ever, in any possible universe?
posted by Sebmojo at 4:31 PM on June 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 4:31 PM on June 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
Realistically, I think we really can be more welcoming. I feel pretty anonymous over at reddit, even in the subs where I hang out the most. It's easier here to find familiar faces and get to know who people are, although that takes time. But if you've been here a long time, it's easy to forget what it's like being new.
One small way to do this is by giving out favorites, if that's your thing. I absolutely use favorites to say hello when I see a name that's new or one I don't see often/often enough. And I think more people should, really -- it's a weird feeling sending out comments somewhere and only getting crickets, you know?
posted by mochapickle at 6:05 PM on June 18, 2023 [29 favorites]
One small way to do this is by giving out favorites, if that's your thing. I absolutely use favorites to say hello when I see a name that's new or one I don't see often/often enough. And I think more people should, really -- it's a weird feeling sending out comments somewhere and only getting crickets, you know?
posted by mochapickle at 6:05 PM on June 18, 2023 [29 favorites]
We should award a special crown symbol 👑 when people graciously apologize or express openness to another perspective in a thread. It's actually really hard to do! But great for site culture.
posted by latkes at 9:12 PM on June 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by latkes at 9:12 PM on June 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
Is there any indication or possibility of any of the proposed changes in this thread happening, ever, in any possible universe?
That question was raised, discussed, and answered upthread.
More generally, I struggle with that sort of question, too, and the asking of it. But (as others have pointed out on another tangent) this is an ancient website: nearly a quarter of a century. Not only is the user base not especially young, but some users have been here for decades. Asking when we'll ever get X that was requested Y years ago is a very reasonable sort of thing to do, and also the site has changed, and requested features and culture changes have come along. It's easy to be impatient with changes not happening, or not happening at the desired speed, but they have come.
I didn't address threaded comments because others are more passionate about it, and I could go either way, but Sebmojo's comment does remind me of the one thing about threaded comments that I think Reddit does do better: make it easier to find sub-topics within long threads. CTRL+F can sometimes find whether a topic's been raised, but if you get the language wrong, you won't find it. Threaded comments (or the option, at least) would have the potential to ameliorate that.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:40 AM on June 19, 2023
That question was raised, discussed, and answered upthread.
More generally, I struggle with that sort of question, too, and the asking of it. But (as others have pointed out on another tangent) this is an ancient website: nearly a quarter of a century. Not only is the user base not especially young, but some users have been here for decades. Asking when we'll ever get X that was requested Y years ago is a very reasonable sort of thing to do, and also the site has changed, and requested features and culture changes have come along. It's easy to be impatient with changes not happening, or not happening at the desired speed, but they have come.
I didn't address threaded comments because others are more passionate about it, and I could go either way, but Sebmojo's comment does remind me of the one thing about threaded comments that I think Reddit does do better: make it easier to find sub-topics within long threads. CTRL+F can sometimes find whether a topic's been raised, but if you get the language wrong, you won't find it. Threaded comments (or the option, at least) would have the potential to ameliorate that.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:40 AM on June 19, 2023
It occurs to me that being able to clearly mark your comment as a reply to another particular comment (without quoting all or necessarily any of it) might be a reasonably non-disruptive way of cautiously moving toward a optionally-threaded model. We do this in all sorts of ad-hoc ways already, but having a software-side way of associating the replying and replied-to comments would open up new possibilities.
(For example, a subsequent incremental step could be to have the number of replies shown alongside the number of favorites -- at which point, perhaps, there could be a client-side tool to pull the replies into a pseudothread.)
posted by Not A Thing at 10:34 AM on June 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
(For example, a subsequent incremental step could be to have the number of replies shown alongside the number of favorites -- at which point, perhaps, there could be a client-side tool to pull the replies into a pseudothread.)
posted by Not A Thing at 10:34 AM on June 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Blocking/muting or even being able to see the username before your read the commend. There are some extremely verbose, pedantic, and boorish types who will post 10 paragraph takes, that I find completely uninteresting, several times in the same thread and frankly I wish I could see the username before I start reading so I could just skip their contributions entirely.
posted by yonega at 1:20 PM on June 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by yonega at 1:20 PM on June 19, 2023 [13 favorites]
"Blocking/muting or even being able to see the username before your read the commend."
Indeed. Aside from the jerks, There are plenty of people whose thoughts/opinions I agree with, but their writing style and/or length is so off-putting that I'd love to easily skip past them.
posted by jonathanhughes at 1:45 PM on June 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Indeed. Aside from the jerks, There are plenty of people whose thoughts/opinions I agree with, but their writing style and/or length is so off-putting that I'd love to easily skip past them.
posted by jonathanhughes at 1:45 PM on June 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
The technique I've developed, the way to skip these verbose posters, is to scan down and if there's more than a few lines of comment, I keep going, to the end; especially if there's multiple paragraphs. Sometimes the username registers, but by then I've gone on to the next comment. I don't visit this site to read (or write) Walls of Text, sorry.
posted by Rash at 3:32 PM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Rash at 3:32 PM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Buttons to make lists and block quotes.
I'd also like a button for
posted by kirkaracha at 4:55 PM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd also like a button for
[cite] for all our album, book, and movie title needs.posted by kirkaracha at 4:55 PM on June 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Blocking another user. Not a total block, but having a blocked users comments appear as grey or faded text, so it's easier to skip them.
I thought: "We have this here, don't we? I'm using it right now."
Did a little searching and it's the Mute-a-Filter add-on for Firefox. I installed it way back when, and have been using it so long I forgot it wasn't part of the site.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:27 PM on June 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
I thought: "We have this here, don't we? I'm using it right now."
Did a little searching and it's the Mute-a-Filter add-on for Firefox. I installed it way back when, and have been using it so long I forgot it wasn't part of the site.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:27 PM on June 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's a huge functionality that would help the site, if it could be implemented. Love Mute-a-filter, couldn't do without it now.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:09 PM on June 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:09 PM on June 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I just compared the Metafilter thread on the missing Titanic sub with a couple of Reddit threads on the same, and while downvotes are doing a lot of the heavy lifting, it would appear that "Basic Human Compassion" is something MeFi could learn from Reddit.
Not what I expected here and I'm not sure if I'm going to hang around to see if we can go even lower.
posted by mmoncur at 9:37 PM on June 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
Not what I expected here and I'm not sure if I'm going to hang around to see if we can go even lower.
posted by mmoncur at 9:37 PM on June 19, 2023 [16 favorites]
Oh, that thread went pretty much exactly how I expected it to go. (I was a bit surprised at how many people still clap like seals whenever the term “Darwin Award” gets used in earnest, like it’s 2004 on a New Atheism message board—but I guess you can’t really teach a bunch of old dogs new tricks.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:29 PM on June 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:29 PM on June 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
Not sure the snark you two are throwing down is really elevating you above what you're criticizing here.
posted by nobody at 11:50 PM on June 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by nobody at 11:50 PM on June 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Been registered for a long time but I seldom visit. With all the recent events (Twitter dumpster fire, Reddit blackout, popularity of Large Language Models, etc) I thought I'd check in... Even subscribed. It's pretty clear to me the signal to noise ratio of the public internet is rapidly deteriorating (aka "enshittification") and I will not miss the current paradigm of large content platforms sucking up all the oxygen. There is now room for experimentation on how to build online communities that are actually worthy of the name.
Hard no on voting systems affecting visibility. I have a higher opinion of Metafilter users since the paywall keeps riffraff out, but these systems basically become a penalty for going against the dominant strain of thought, encourage herding, and invite vote seeking/manipulation, none of which is conducive to actual discussion. It's positively stultifying.
I don't want 'niceness" as a hard rule. I admittedly cut my teeth on forums with atmospheres far more toxic so perhaps I'm inured, but emphasis on the forms of niceness often becomes twisted - that is, it becomes permissible to express horrible intent as long as it's said politely enough. Good faith counts for much more. And sometimes people do deserve to be yelled at.
There has to be some format of discussion that isn't just a flat list with quotes/replies or a tree. Maybe language models could actually be useful here, to organize blocks of text into coherent conversation(s), instead of generating more marketing content-free content that infests the internet these days.
posted by ndr at 2:19 AM on June 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hard no on voting systems affecting visibility. I have a higher opinion of Metafilter users since the paywall keeps riffraff out, but these systems basically become a penalty for going against the dominant strain of thought, encourage herding, and invite vote seeking/manipulation, none of which is conducive to actual discussion. It's positively stultifying.
I don't want 'niceness" as a hard rule. I admittedly cut my teeth on forums with atmospheres far more toxic so perhaps I'm inured, but emphasis on the forms of niceness often becomes twisted - that is, it becomes permissible to express horrible intent as long as it's said politely enough. Good faith counts for much more. And sometimes people do deserve to be yelled at.
There has to be some format of discussion that isn't just a flat list with quotes/replies or a tree. Maybe language models could actually be useful here, to organize blocks of text into coherent conversation(s), instead of generating more marketing content-free content that infests the internet these days.
posted by ndr at 2:19 AM on June 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
The things I like about Reddit aren't easily portable to Metafilter, unfortunately. Hyper-specificity is really the main attraction for me about Reddit. There's a subreddit for my current city, another for not only music but specific genres of music or even just obscure / rare media.
And music "hoarding." I discovered last year that tending to my digital music collection is soothing to me like tending to a garden or something. Just with less dirt and humidity.
I've asked a few times to add music / albums to FanFare but that's been denied or back-burnered. I love the Asks about "songs like" but that doesn't quite scratch my itch to discuss music with people. (Also shout-out to hippybear's front page music posts, he deserves some kind of lifetime achievement award for FPPs...)
And, of course, copious cat subreddits. Metafilter is full of cat lovers, but not so much cat pictures. (I appreciate the cat tax that accompanies many asks about cats, of course.)
posted by jzb at 6:47 AM on June 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
And music "hoarding." I discovered last year that tending to my digital music collection is soothing to me like tending to a garden or something. Just with less dirt and humidity.
I've asked a few times to add music / albums to FanFare but that's been denied or back-burnered. I love the Asks about "songs like" but that doesn't quite scratch my itch to discuss music with people. (Also shout-out to hippybear's front page music posts, he deserves some kind of lifetime achievement award for FPPs...)
And, of course, copious cat subreddits. Metafilter is full of cat lovers, but not so much cat pictures. (I appreciate the cat tax that accompanies many asks about cats, of course.)
posted by jzb at 6:47 AM on June 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's not just the downvotes that do the heavy lifting on threads on Reddit, it's the [removed] tags where comments have been deleted. That's one thing Metafilter could adopt that would help make sense of moderation interventions which otherwise often remain confusing.
That thread about the missing Titanic sub has been scrubbed of a lot of comments by now, I can only imagine, based on mod notes left in the thread and on comments referencing other by now missing comments. I wasn't reading the thread live as those comments were being made and I have no idea what exactly was deleted and who said what, and it's just more confusing and frustrating this way.
I think a [removed] tag for each deleted comment would be a lot more transparent.
posted by bitteschoen at 7:24 AM on June 20, 2023 [28 favorites]
That thread about the missing Titanic sub has been scrubbed of a lot of comments by now, I can only imagine, based on mod notes left in the thread and on comments referencing other by now missing comments. I wasn't reading the thread live as those comments were being made and I have no idea what exactly was deleted and who said what, and it's just more confusing and frustrating this way.
I think a [removed] tag for each deleted comment would be a lot more transparent.
posted by bitteschoen at 7:24 AM on June 20, 2023 [28 favorites]
+1 on deleted comments leaving an actual stub.
posted by Dysk at 7:52 AM on June 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 7:52 AM on June 20, 2023 [10 favorites]
One pretty important lesson, and as just slightly more of an anarchist than socialist I somewhat tend to appreciate, the CEO/board/owner can do whatever they please: Huffman isn’t backing down
Go Jessamyn
posted by sammyo at 8:24 AM on June 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Go Jessamyn
posted by sammyo at 8:24 AM on June 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
there are zero Nazis."Glad to hear Metafilter's Own Scott Adams has (apparently) had a come-to-Jesus moment!
posted by Flunkie at 8:33 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think we should have some minimal threshold of activity, or statute of limitations for labeling anybody "Metafilter's Own" -- sure, he was here, but only made a few comments, 12 years ago. Does that really qualify as One Of Our Own?
posted by Rash at 8:56 AM on June 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Rash at 8:56 AM on June 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ah, but those few were the thing of legend.
posted by Flunkie at 9:12 AM on June 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 9:12 AM on June 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
(also, more seriously:)
Maybe this is just my feeling as opposed to reality, but it has always seemed to me that "Metafilter's Own" has historically been frequently used in two different ways:
posted by Flunkie at 9:15 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe this is just my feeling as opposed to reality, but it has always seemed to me that "Metafilter's Own" has historically been frequently used in two different ways:
- This cool person has a Metafilter account!
- This jerk has a Metafilter account.
posted by Flunkie at 9:15 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anyway, FWIW, my takes on the main subject:
Threading: No. Well, OK... but.
In my opinion, on Reddit, threading is not just good, but downright needed, because there are approximately five hundred quintillion people commenting on any given reasonably popular thread. It makes it easier -- hell, it makes it possible -- to find a thread-in-a-thread, or even a thread-in-a-thread-in-a-thread-in-a-thread-in-a-thread, that you are actually interested in.
On Metafilter, with way less of a userbase, it seems to me that there is no such need. I understand that there are people who would like it, maybe even strongly want it, but I don't think there's an inherent need as there is on Reddit. And meanwhile, there are some pretty great things about Metafilter's non-threading that it would break (at least if implemented without a lot of thought). For example, threading would make it easier for the post to unintentionally but naturally evolve into self-isolating units of discussion, which I don't think is necessarily a good thing; non-threading makes it easier to see "what's new" in the discussion; non-threading makes it easier to see developments in the thoughts behind the discussion over time (as someone -- sorry, forget who -- mentioned earlier).
Anyway, I guess I'm not totally opposed to it, but I don't think it should be done like Reddit, and I think the default behavior should enable usage that's like Metafilter has always had. Perhaps instead of full-blown threading, an effective solution that wouldn't ruin the good points of the current behavior might include something like:
This makes threads more confusing, less interesting, and less useful. I can't tell you the number of times I've searched for some info on Google, got links to a Reddit post whose title indicates clearly that it's about the exact thing that I'm looking for, and when I go to the post, I see that the high-voted threads are like:
User block lists: Sure, why not. Or at least user make-less-noticeable lists.
I'm not a big user of such things personally, but I really like the idea posted earlier (again, sorry, forget who) where comments by the undesired users have a lower visibility, such as by muted text contrast or by collapsing by default (with, however it's done, it being an easy click away from "Wait, I really do want to see this particular one").
Back-and-forth AskMe: Yes please.
The "threadsitting" rule seems good in some cases, when the person really is just arguing a position in the guise of asking a question, for example. But as a blanket rule, it often seems like, I don't know, bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, and to get in the way of the thread.
Open source the code: Oh god yes oh god oh god yes please.
Let us at it. I don't mean to complain (much), but it seems pretty obvious that threads like this one come and go, with very little actual resulting improvement. I feel pretty sure that that has been the case ever since I've been familiar with Metafilter, which has been for approximately 20 years now. Again, not complaining; I understand that the tech side of things has had large resource issues for all that time.
But it doesn't have to have such issues. You're sitting on a huge pile of tech nerds who would just love to do nothing more than improve some Metafilter thing. Just let us at it. Of course, the administration would have final say on whether or not any particular code change would actually make it onto the site, perhaps after discussion in Metatalk (or whatever). For a lot of changes - e.g. cosmetic interface changes -- there could even be an easy opt-in beta period, and maybe a "Metabeta" section, with posts about the things that are currently in beta, so that there's a clear place for the userbase to discuss such things.
Other stuff: Yes. Or no. Or maybe.
Specifically, I hereby request a feature that magically improves my memory so that I can recall all the things that I was going to say in a comment like this one before I started actually typing.
posted by Flunkie at 10:05 AM on June 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Threading: No. Well, OK... but.
In my opinion, on Reddit, threading is not just good, but downright needed, because there are approximately five hundred quintillion people commenting on any given reasonably popular thread. It makes it easier -- hell, it makes it possible -- to find a thread-in-a-thread, or even a thread-in-a-thread-in-a-thread-in-a-thread-in-a-thread, that you are actually interested in.
On Metafilter, with way less of a userbase, it seems to me that there is no such need. I understand that there are people who would like it, maybe even strongly want it, but I don't think there's an inherent need as there is on Reddit. And meanwhile, there are some pretty great things about Metafilter's non-threading that it would break (at least if implemented without a lot of thought). For example, threading would make it easier for the post to unintentionally but naturally evolve into self-isolating units of discussion, which I don't think is necessarily a good thing; non-threading makes it easier to see "what's new" in the discussion; non-threading makes it easier to see developments in the thoughts behind the discussion over time (as someone -- sorry, forget who -- mentioned earlier).
Anyway, I guess I'm not totally opposed to it, but I don't think it should be done like Reddit, and I think the default behavior should enable usage that's like Metafilter has always had. Perhaps instead of full-blown threading, an effective solution that wouldn't ruin the good points of the current behavior might include something like:
- A "reply" button next to each comment
- Thread-navigation links ("parent", "children", whatever) next to each comment that is somehow involved in such explicit replies.
This makes threads more confusing, less interesting, and less useful. I can't tell you the number of times I've searched for some info on Google, got links to a Reddit post whose title indicates clearly that it's about the exact thing that I'm looking for, and when I go to the post, I see that the high-voted threads are like:
- Yeah, so, like I said, I'm mostly interested in blah-blah-blah, but I want to be clear that if you've got any info on bork-bork-bork, that's cool too.
- (deleted)
- Oh my god that's exactly what I was looking for! So interesting! Thanks so much!
User block lists: Sure, why not. Or at least user make-less-noticeable lists.
I'm not a big user of such things personally, but I really like the idea posted earlier (again, sorry, forget who) where comments by the undesired users have a lower visibility, such as by muted text contrast or by collapsing by default (with, however it's done, it being an easy click away from "Wait, I really do want to see this particular one").
Back-and-forth AskMe: Yes please.
The "threadsitting" rule seems good in some cases, when the person really is just arguing a position in the guise of asking a question, for example. But as a blanket rule, it often seems like, I don't know, bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, and to get in the way of the thread.
Open source the code: Oh god yes oh god oh god yes please.
Let us at it. I don't mean to complain (much), but it seems pretty obvious that threads like this one come and go, with very little actual resulting improvement. I feel pretty sure that that has been the case ever since I've been familiar with Metafilter, which has been for approximately 20 years now. Again, not complaining; I understand that the tech side of things has had large resource issues for all that time.
But it doesn't have to have such issues. You're sitting on a huge pile of tech nerds who would just love to do nothing more than improve some Metafilter thing. Just let us at it. Of course, the administration would have final say on whether or not any particular code change would actually make it onto the site, perhaps after discussion in Metatalk (or whatever). For a lot of changes - e.g. cosmetic interface changes -- there could even be an easy opt-in beta period, and maybe a "Metabeta" section, with posts about the things that are currently in beta, so that there's a clear place for the userbase to discuss such things.
Other stuff: Yes. Or no. Or maybe.
Specifically, I hereby request a feature that magically improves my memory so that I can recall all the things that I was going to say in a comment like this one before I started actually typing.
posted by Flunkie at 10:05 AM on June 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Metafilter's Own" traditionally, I think, means "Someone famous who theoretically has a membership, joined up to reply to a thread about them, made no more than three comments and never came back". See also Steve Wozniak.
posted by Grangousier at 10:10 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 10:10 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a hint to anyone having problems with my proposed exercise, I will say that I personally consider "Metafilter's Own Scott Adams" to be in one of the two categories I mentioned, and "Metafilter's Own Woz" to be in the other.
posted by Flunkie at 10:13 AM on June 20, 2023
posted by Flunkie at 10:13 AM on June 20, 2023
Threading is awesome for collapsing sidebars and tangents you don’t care about, or auto-hiding conversation beyond an arbitrary nesting depth so you have to manually indicate “I want more of this” with a deliberate click.
However, flat comments are wonderfully democratic in a way that threaded will never be - there’s an unconscious bias in threaded views to reply to the current top sorted comment so that your reply is also near the top. Even people operating in good faith do this constantly. The fallacy of “what I have to say is so important everyone must see it!”
…he wrote with wild hypocrisy.
Point being: Metafilter doesn’t need threaded comments until - suddenly and usually all at once - a specific individual post will very, very badly need them. And there isn’t a great way to retroactively translate implied reply chains, especially because sometimes there is multiple inheritance.
posted by Ryvar at 11:05 AM on June 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
However, flat comments are wonderfully democratic in a way that threaded will never be - there’s an unconscious bias in threaded views to reply to the current top sorted comment so that your reply is also near the top. Even people operating in good faith do this constantly. The fallacy of “what I have to say is so important everyone must see it!”
…he wrote with wild hypocrisy.
Point being: Metafilter doesn’t need threaded comments until - suddenly and usually all at once - a specific individual post will very, very badly need them. And there isn’t a great way to retroactively translate implied reply chains, especially because sometimes there is multiple inheritance.
posted by Ryvar at 11:05 AM on June 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
And there isn’t a great way to retroactively translate implied reply chains, especially because sometimes there is multiple inheritance.This doesn't really seem like a dealbreaker to me; someone upthread mentioned the possibility of having something like a link on each comment to open a window for threaded mode related to that comment. I think a sidebar would be better, with just a little summary line for each comment in the thread (username, date/time, first few words, all indented as appropriate for the threading), which you could then click on to bring up any particular one of the comments. That's probably just my specific personal preference, but something like those in a general sense could be done relatively unintrusively, I think.
posted by Flunkie at 11:13 AM on June 20, 2023
Oh, yeah, and like Teegeeack AV Club Secretary, I downvote downvotes.
posted by Flunkie at 11:14 AM on June 20, 2023
posted by Flunkie at 11:14 AM on June 20, 2023
Go Jessamyn
Thanks. I'd love to debate Huffman, I think that would be hilarious.
I don't call anyone MetaFilter's Own (i.e. famous people) if they've been banned, I guess.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:17 AM on June 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Thanks. I'd love to debate Huffman, I think that would be hilarious.
I don't call anyone MetaFilter's Own (i.e. famous people) if they've been banned, I guess.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:17 AM on June 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Was Adams banned? I (guess maybe I mis-)remember him fessing up after being told by a mod to check his mail, then more or less going away (and taking to his own website).
posted by Flunkie at 11:26 AM on June 20, 2023
posted by Flunkie at 11:26 AM on June 20, 2023
(And according to the mefi wiki: "plannedchaos then wandered off without apology or getting banned."
posted by Dysk at 11:30 AM on June 20, 2023
posted by Dysk at 11:30 AM on June 20, 2023
I think he wandered off at the time and then was banned later. I am showing the user page as having a disabled account.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:40 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:40 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh, I misunderstood what Ryvar was saying ("And there isn’t a great way to retroactively translate implied reply chains, especially because sometimes there is multiple inheritance."). Sorry.
posted by Flunkie at 11:59 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Flunkie at 11:59 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
jessamyn, that'll most likely be my mistake, then - sorry! Glad that he's gone :)
posted by Dysk at 12:25 PM on June 20, 2023
posted by Dysk at 12:25 PM on June 20, 2023
Teegeeack AV Club Secretary:
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:41 PM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd give an upvote to simplified threading. Just one deep. Someone makes a top level comment and then all replies go underneath. But with no further nesting with the replies to the replies.This sounds like a great compromise to me.
That would allow the conversation to follow different paths but not meander too far out into the weeds. And the other advantage of just one deep is that it could be a user preference. For the people that prefer unthreaded, the comment section could appear in its usual single column form. Just with a little "replied to: userX's commentX" link shown on the "posted by" line.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:41 PM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Metafilter already has a process for a comment that you think better of upon reflection -- ask the mods to delete it.
Except with low mod capacity, who wants to bother the mods?
I think a better solution would be to allow users to edit past the five minute window, but also allow people to click through and see what the thing said before it was edited. This way sure some people could still go back and find the personal info, but it wouldn't be *searchable*
posted by corb at 12:42 PM on June 20, 2023
Except with low mod capacity, who wants to bother the mods?
I think a better solution would be to allow users to edit past the five minute window, but also allow people to click through and see what the thing said before it was edited. This way sure some people could still go back and find the personal info, but it wouldn't be *searchable*
posted by corb at 12:42 PM on June 20, 2023
who wants to bother the mods?
This is a small community and they are literally paid to do this work (speaking of "different from Reddit"). Please, if you need help with a comment, email the mod team.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:23 PM on June 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is a small community and they are literally paid to do this work (speaking of "different from Reddit"). Please, if you need help with a comment, email the mod team.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:23 PM on June 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
6 days and almost 200 comments late to the thread so it's a bit of talking into the void at this point, but fwiw I do think there is something to the notion of being more able to easily ignore things instead of letting them derail threads in a place with threaded comments, and the effect that has on your mindset really leapt out at me when I came back to MeFi during the Reddit blackout after not engaging much for so long - I've gotten so much better at not taking the bait and getting argumentative on Reddit, but oh my god I've had to bite my tongue more in a week back on MeFi than I do in a month on Reddit.
I mean maybe it's just the familiar shade of blue unlocking a previous less mature version of me because of how ingrained it and MeFi culture has been in my life... but I think it's at least a bit about the threading.
But even feeling that way, I'd be so hesitant to actually go through with a full on threaded comments change. I'm not averse to change in general but it's almost like there maybe is something valuable in having it all out there in one big mess here, in how it does make you think more about conduct in the community, both your own and others'. There is something that seems more disposable and alienating about even the closest-knit subreddits I've been part of and I wonder if part of that is how threading and downvotes make people experience vastly different aspects of the place than other people even in the same threads. So I really like Teegeeack's compromise idea of having only shallow threading, that does have some great potential.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:20 PM on June 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean maybe it's just the familiar shade of blue unlocking a previous less mature version of me because of how ingrained it and MeFi culture has been in my life... but I think it's at least a bit about the threading.
But even feeling that way, I'd be so hesitant to actually go through with a full on threaded comments change. I'm not averse to change in general but it's almost like there maybe is something valuable in having it all out there in one big mess here, in how it does make you think more about conduct in the community, both your own and others'. There is something that seems more disposable and alienating about even the closest-knit subreddits I've been part of and I wonder if part of that is how threading and downvotes make people experience vastly different aspects of the place than other people even in the same threads. So I really like Teegeeack's compromise idea of having only shallow threading, that does have some great potential.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:20 PM on June 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Flunkie: And meanwhile, there are some pretty great things about Metafilter's non-threading that it would break (at least if implemented without a lot of thought). For example, threading would make it easier for the post to unintentionally but naturally evolve into self-isolating units of discussion, which I don't think is necessarily a good thing; non-threading makes it easier to see "what's new" in the discussion; non-threading makes it easier to see developments in the thoughts behind the discussion over time (as someone -- sorry, forget who -- mentioned earlier).
Can I suggest you take a look at Usenet? Clients can make use of the threading information present in each message header, but most if not all clients can also list articles simply in chronological order. And even in threaded mode you get to see every new article since your last visit. Of course that requires some smarts from the client which I expect would be difficult to implement in a browser window, but the comments sections for articles on The Register manage to do a fair job there: sort comments by Nested Thread / Thread / Newest / Oldest / Popularity. Sort by Oldest would give you how MF shows comments now, show Threaded involves building a list using info from which comment is a reply to which (and Nested is using that to show those articles indented to four or five levels). Though the first requirement for any such approach would be an integrated 'write reply' function, so that there's an uniform way in which replies are formatted.
posted by Stoneshop at 3:50 AM on June 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Can I suggest you take a look at Usenet? Clients can make use of the threading information present in each message header, but most if not all clients can also list articles simply in chronological order. And even in threaded mode you get to see every new article since your last visit. Of course that requires some smarts from the client which I expect would be difficult to implement in a browser window, but the comments sections for articles on The Register manage to do a fair job there: sort comments by Nested Thread / Thread / Newest / Oldest / Popularity. Sort by Oldest would give you how MF shows comments now, show Threaded involves building a list using info from which comment is a reply to which (and Nested is using that to show those articles indented to four or five levels). Though the first requirement for any such approach would be an integrated 'write reply' function, so that there's an uniform way in which replies are formatted.
posted by Stoneshop at 3:50 AM on June 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I used Usenet a lot, though a long long time ago (pre-web). I didn't have much to compare it to at the time, I guess, and like I said it was a long time ago, but I do seem to remember threads splintering into largely isolated units, to the point where it was sometimes confusing when you'd press the "next in thread" button and get to something seemingly completely unrelated. For a somewhat more modern thing: Web-based mailing list archives (which also have various "sort by" and "navigate by" things) often seem basically the same to me.
Again, I'd just like to say that I'm not totally opposed to threading; I just think it's not such a great fit, and that if it's decided to support it, a lot of thought should be put into how exactly to implement it.
posted by Flunkie at 1:06 PM on June 21, 2023
Again, I'd just like to say that I'm not totally opposed to threading; I just think it's not such a great fit, and that if it's decided to support it, a lot of thought should be put into how exactly to implement it.
posted by Flunkie at 1:06 PM on June 21, 2023
I’ll support threaded comments if I can read MeFi on MacSoup.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:29 PM on June 21, 2023
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:29 PM on June 21, 2023
I enjoy threaded conversations on other forums, but I'm kind of surprised at the enthusiasm for introducing them here. It'd be a more dramatic change to the community and the way conversations flow than almost any other change that's been mooted. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to implement them in Metafilter's codebase and UI.
posted by adrianhon at 1:54 PM on June 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 1:54 PM on June 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
I’ll support threaded comments if I can read MeFi on MacSoup.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone's put something together already, I mean there is a Gopher server
posted by jason_steakums at 4:23 PM on June 21, 2023
I wouldn't be surprised if someone's put something together already, I mean there is a Gopher server
posted by jason_steakums at 4:23 PM on June 21, 2023
can't even imagine how difficult
Might not be that difficult if you offload the tricky parts to client-side scripting. Server-side, capture a bit of metadata, comment Y is a reply to comment X, pass that to the client along with the rest of the comment data. Client script re-renders the page such that comment Y appears under comment X. Add a little CSS to let folks collapse/expand/sort, and you have a bargain-bin Reddit knockoff.
[note: i am not your frimble, this is not frimble advice, please ask your frimble if halfassed client-side comment threading is right for you]
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 5:27 PM on June 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Might not be that difficult if you offload the tricky parts to client-side scripting. Server-side, capture a bit of metadata, comment Y is a reply to comment X, pass that to the client along with the rest of the comment data. Client script re-renders the page such that comment Y appears under comment X. Add a little CSS to let folks collapse/expand/sort, and you have a bargain-bin Reddit knockoff.
[note: i am not your frimble, this is not frimble advice, please ask your frimble if halfassed client-side comment threading is right for you]
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 5:27 PM on June 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
A small thing about Reddit that I like is that people seldom get teased over typos, so long as the intention is still clear.
Tonight someone wrote "legos abortions" by mistake in a post to the blue, and while some of the responses are funny, it kind of derails a serious thread.
posted by zadcat at 6:33 PM on June 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tonight someone wrote "legos abortions" by mistake in a post to the blue, and while some of the responses are funny, it kind of derails a serious thread.
posted by zadcat at 6:33 PM on June 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
(zadcat, to be clear, no one is teasing the commenter as far as I can tell, they're just having fun with a typo that resulted in an amusing phrase. Whether or not it's genuinely derail-ey I'd defer to the mods on, but I don't see any meanness or personal attack.)
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:43 PM on June 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:43 PM on June 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I just realized I missed this MeTa entirely which means I did not get the chance to voice my full-throated approval for DOT Day, er uh, Dot Day.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:27 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:27 AM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
A small thing about Reddit that I like is that people seldom get teased over typos, so long as the intention is still clear.
But they get ripped to shreds and treated like shit over absolutely everything else.
I deleted Reddit from my phone again recently, because it wasn't healthy for me to remain in a situation where people forget that the other users are actual human beings.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:27 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
But they get ripped to shreds and treated like shit over absolutely everything else.
I deleted Reddit from my phone again recently, because it wasn't healthy for me to remain in a situation where people forget that the other users are actual human beings.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:27 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
But they get ripped to shreds and treated like shit over absolutely everything else
Which is absolutely not something I've experienced or seen but I guess (unsurprisingly) we were reading different subreddits.
posted by fabius at 9:50 AM on June 22, 2023
Which is absolutely not something I've experienced or seen but I guess (unsurprisingly) we were reading different subreddits.
posted by fabius at 9:50 AM on June 22, 2023
I recently got downvoted to hell on reddit for suggesting to try putting peanut butter on a BLT on a food post about a BLT, so that's neat.
posted by phunniemee at 9:57 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 9:57 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, getting ripped on Reddit probably depends on where you're posting. If you're posting somewhere popular, anyway.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:18 AM on June 22, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:18 AM on June 22, 2023
a situation where people forget that the other users are actual human beings.
I'm sorry to hear it went badly for you, and I hope deleting the app helped. To the point of the original ask for this MeTa, though, I think that your comment reminded me of something I like about Reddit -- that there are less-personal, less-texty ways to interact briefly with other users.
This has come up before a lot on MeTa about Asks. I'm thinking about how they get chatty, do/don't answer the question, ignore sub-point 17.b.2 of the question, etc. Sometimes a short answer is a good thing, and nothing on MetaFilter, as far as I know, constrains response length. When people do offer brief responses here, whether links to gifs or memes, or just plain terse, it sometimes doesn't go well.
posted by cupcakeninja at 10:38 AM on June 22, 2023
I'm sorry to hear it went badly for you, and I hope deleting the app helped. To the point of the original ask for this MeTa, though, I think that your comment reminded me of something I like about Reddit -- that there are less-personal, less-texty ways to interact briefly with other users.
This has come up before a lot on MeTa about Asks. I'm thinking about how they get chatty, do/don't answer the question, ignore sub-point 17.b.2 of the question, etc. Sometimes a short answer is a good thing, and nothing on MetaFilter, as far as I know, constrains response length. When people do offer brief responses here, whether links to gifs or memes, or just plain terse, it sometimes doesn't go well.
posted by cupcakeninja at 10:38 AM on June 22, 2023
I'm sorry to hear it went badly for you, and I hope deleting the app helped.
I just want to be clear that this wasn't a one-time experience, or an experience on just a couple of subs. It's consistently and inevitably been what I've both experienced and witnessed whenever it's been long enough that I feel like trying it again. There may be some niche subs where this isn't the prevailing culture, but I've never been able to find them before being overwhelmed by the general hostility and starting to get flashbacks to high school bullying.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:57 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I just want to be clear that this wasn't a one-time experience, or an experience on just a couple of subs. It's consistently and inevitably been what I've both experienced and witnessed whenever it's been long enough that I feel like trying it again. There may be some niche subs where this isn't the prevailing culture, but I've never been able to find them before being overwhelmed by the general hostility and starting to get flashbacks to high school bullying.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:57 AM on June 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I recently got downvoted to hell on reddit for suggesting
For better or worse, despite constant refrains of "downvote is not disagree", I think that a major takeaway from reddit's UI is that having a downvote button just naturally provides an easy path for indicating disagreement for most users. So it's not a great space for anyone who will be bothered by being downvoted (which to be clear I think is a reasonable reaction, just not one that everyone has).
posted by advil at 12:51 PM on June 22, 2023
For better or worse, despite constant refrains of "downvote is not disagree", I think that a major takeaway from reddit's UI is that having a downvote button just naturally provides an easy path for indicating disagreement for most users. So it's not a great space for anyone who will be bothered by being downvoted (which to be clear I think is a reasonable reaction, just not one that everyone has).
posted by advil at 12:51 PM on June 22, 2023
Other past comments of mine that have received massive downvotes:
- noting that Trayvon Martin was a child when a top level comment said that George Zimmerman was the one who had shot "the black man Trayvon Martin"
- correcting by saying "I am a *she, not a he" when someone replied to a comment I made, where this information was relevant
Expressing clear disagreement with something, I can't imagine what.
(The only point I'm making is that reddit is good for a lot of things, but also can really really suck, often. Like many places, including the real outside world. So acting as if reddit as a whole is somehow more enlightened than other parts of the internet because they don't...make fun of typos??? is weird.)
posted by phunniemee at 1:00 PM on June 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
- noting that Trayvon Martin was a child when a top level comment said that George Zimmerman was the one who had shot "the black man Trayvon Martin"
- correcting by saying "I am a *she, not a he" when someone replied to a comment I made, where this information was relevant
Expressing clear disagreement with something, I can't imagine what.
(The only point I'm making is that reddit is good for a lot of things, but also can really really suck, often. Like many places, including the real outside world. So acting as if reddit as a whole is somehow more enlightened than other parts of the internet because they don't...make fun of typos??? is weird.)
posted by phunniemee at 1:00 PM on June 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
Not to mention that they do make fun of typos (and misspellings). A lot. And not just "make fun of", but also explicitly treat them as obvious indications of stupidity, and of the worthlessness of the opinion expressed with one, and of the expressor as a person in general.
It's just yet another "Reddit is overrun with Nazis" thing, except the flip side of it: "No one makes fun of typos" = "People rarely make fun of typos on the extremely small portion of subreddits that I frequent and which I assume accurately represent Reddit as a whole".
posted by Flunkie at 1:30 PM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's just yet another "Reddit is overrun with Nazis" thing, except the flip side of it: "No one makes fun of typos" = "People rarely make fun of typos on the extremely small portion of subreddits that I frequent and which I assume accurately represent Reddit as a whole".
posted by Flunkie at 1:30 PM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am hoping to have a friendly thread about what people LIKE about reddit and what it gets right that MetaFilter could learn from. We’ve had plenty of threads about what people don’t like about Reddit, and I ask that people respectfully understand that’s not the purpose of this thread.
The instructions at the top of this thread, for the discussion. So it makes sense that people would be talking about things they like about Reddit and not what they don't like about Reddit, or on places where what they like about Reddit doesn't apply, since that was the purpose of the thread.
posted by lapis at 2:48 PM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
The instructions at the top of this thread, for the discussion. So it makes sense that people would be talking about things they like about Reddit and not what they don't like about Reddit, or on places where what they like about Reddit doesn't apply, since that was the purpose of the thread.
posted by lapis at 2:48 PM on June 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
One thing I've always wondered - why are the options in the flag list all in lowercase (except the word HTML)?
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 12:22 PM on June 25, 2023
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 12:22 PM on June 25, 2023
I'm kind of surprised at how many people want threaded discussions here. For me, there's lots of sites where threaded discussions are the norm, and that's great. But I also think it's nice that some sites aren't, and so I don't think it's a good idea to change Metafilter to be threaded. I like that different sites work differently, and threading has become so much the norm that I value the places that don't do that.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:13 AM on June 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 1:13 AM on June 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
If replies were a structured part of the data (even if they weren't made into a visually-explicit threaded presentation) of the site, that would unlock some possibilities that could be of benefit to Metafilter.
On reddit, a deleted comment leaves behind a marker- if there have been replies to that comment. If a comment receives no replies before being deleted, it's just invisibly gone. I think a similar approach that leaves markers for deleted comments that have received replies could benefit Metafilter. Sometimes, moderators here have noted that the presence of replies to a comment can complicate the handling of that comment; they worry that deleting a comment without deleting its replies will result in confusion for later readers. But if comments have some explicit link back to what they are replying to, and what they are replying to is now displayed as a deletion marker, then it should be pretty clear what happened. The "blast radius" of a comment deletion could be reduced.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 5:50 AM on June 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
On reddit, a deleted comment leaves behind a marker- if there have been replies to that comment. If a comment receives no replies before being deleted, it's just invisibly gone. I think a similar approach that leaves markers for deleted comments that have received replies could benefit Metafilter. Sometimes, moderators here have noted that the presence of replies to a comment can complicate the handling of that comment; they worry that deleting a comment without deleting its replies will result in confusion for later readers. But if comments have some explicit link back to what they are replying to, and what they are replying to is now displayed as a deletion marker, then it should be pretty clear what happened. The "blast radius" of a comment deletion could be reduced.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 5:50 AM on June 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
... if comments have some explicit link back to what they are replying to, and what they are replying to is now displayed as a deletion marker, then it should be pretty clear what happened. The "blast radius" of a comment deletion could be reduced.
Absolutely agree with this. If there was one not-impossible thing I would like to see, it's a marker for deleted comments. It's something that could be achieved without any scrounging around in the mess of code that runs MeFi, simply by replacing the text of a comment with 'deleted' instead of actually deleting it. I get that this might leave a gap in the data for moderators (although I seem to recall that they can see edits to comments), but it would stop the constant gaps in the conversation that leaves the rest of us baffled. The mod notes that something has been deleted are less bad, but they don't really solve the problem.
posted by dg at 2:35 PM on June 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Absolutely agree with this. If there was one not-impossible thing I would like to see, it's a marker for deleted comments. It's something that could be achieved without any scrounging around in the mess of code that runs MeFi, simply by replacing the text of a comment with 'deleted' instead of actually deleting it. I get that this might leave a gap in the data for moderators (although I seem to recall that they can see edits to comments), but it would stop the constant gaps in the conversation that leaves the rest of us baffled. The mod notes that something has been deleted are less bad, but they don't really solve the problem.
posted by dg at 2:35 PM on June 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
I find Reddit’s nested comments really hard to follow. Another pay to enter (non-Reddit) hobby community I read a lot has nested comments and I have to hunt and peck to find new comments if they’re not at the end of the thread. I waste a lot of time and frustrating scrolling back and forth things I’ve already read. I love that a Mefi thread remembers where I left off reading. The simplicity and planeness of the design is a feature.
More votes to add blockquote buttons, making comments anonymous without mod intervention, and perhaps a distinction between favorite and bookmark. The other features of Reddit that I like would depend on a much larger user base.
posted by Bunglegirl at 6:31 PM on July 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
More votes to add blockquote buttons, making comments anonymous without mod intervention, and perhaps a distinction between favorite and bookmark. The other features of Reddit that I like would depend on a much larger user base.
posted by Bunglegirl at 6:31 PM on July 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I generally appreciate how Reddit's threading model makes it easier to follow who's replying to what. I've seen several instances on mefi in recent months where a direct reply causes confusion by the presence of a faster commenter in between, leading to additional noise until the replier can clarify and apologise for any heat.
I also appreciate how its deletion model limits confusion by making it clear where the gaps from moderation and user withdrawal are, without causing any additional issues from the remaining comment text or username.
What I do not appreciate, especially on newer versions of the site, is the sorting and collapsing of replies (in "best" mode, which all pages use by default instead of "newest"/"oldest" when not logged in) according to user votes, and the site's reaction when attempting to expand collapsed comments and threads. This breaks so many interactions that I've relied on both on mefi and on paginated phpbb forums:
* Control-F to find all mentions of a word or phrase is impossible (for example when checking whether a particular perspective on the topic has already been covered, or when your interest in reading the comments only extends to that particular angle)
* Search engine results can lead to a page which loads in a state without the search phrase actually present (making additional work to find the snippet that caught your interest on the results page)
* Complex topics on loosely-moderated or "apolitical" subreddits can have insightful or nuanced comments voted down to the bottom of the page and collapsed for crime of being too left-wing/feminist/intersectional/queer for that community's sensibilities
* When you do find a comment whose full tree of responses you want to read, they are generally missing and require extra clicks/taps to load (with even more clicks to load deeply nested trees, and even then they may be autocollapsed and require individual taps to actually display)
* Keeping up only with recent comments and replies is much more difficult (I haven't even attempted this recently)
* When skimming over a thread for interesting replies, opening a reply thread for later reading in a background tab produces a page which is once again in "best" mode, still requires more clicks to load and uncollapse replies, and is divorced of the context of the immediate parent comment. And using the link to display the parent will load a completely new page often without the focus comment in view (especially if it fell foul of the subreddit's orthodoxy)
* Finally, having to load or reload comments so frequently is extremely hostile to offline use, planned or unplanned. More than once I've loaded up a long comment thread on phone/tablet to keep me occupied on transport or in waiting rooms, and the Reddit model makes that impossible.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 3:34 AM on July 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I also appreciate how its deletion model limits confusion by making it clear where the gaps from moderation and user withdrawal are, without causing any additional issues from the remaining comment text or username.
What I do not appreciate, especially on newer versions of the site, is the sorting and collapsing of replies (in "best" mode, which all pages use by default instead of "newest"/"oldest" when not logged in) according to user votes, and the site's reaction when attempting to expand collapsed comments and threads. This breaks so many interactions that I've relied on both on mefi and on paginated phpbb forums:
* Control-F to find all mentions of a word or phrase is impossible (for example when checking whether a particular perspective on the topic has already been covered, or when your interest in reading the comments only extends to that particular angle)
* Search engine results can lead to a page which loads in a state without the search phrase actually present (making additional work to find the snippet that caught your interest on the results page)
* Complex topics on loosely-moderated or "apolitical" subreddits can have insightful or nuanced comments voted down to the bottom of the page and collapsed for crime of being too left-wing/feminist/intersectional/queer for that community's sensibilities
* When you do find a comment whose full tree of responses you want to read, they are generally missing and require extra clicks/taps to load (with even more clicks to load deeply nested trees, and even then they may be autocollapsed and require individual taps to actually display)
* Keeping up only with recent comments and replies is much more difficult (I haven't even attempted this recently)
* When skimming over a thread for interesting replies, opening a reply thread for later reading in a background tab produces a page which is once again in "best" mode, still requires more clicks to load and uncollapse replies, and is divorced of the context of the immediate parent comment. And using the link to display the parent will load a completely new page often without the focus comment in view (especially if it fell foul of the subreddit's orthodoxy)
* Finally, having to load or reload comments so frequently is extremely hostile to offline use, planned or unplanned. More than once I've loaded up a long comment thread on phone/tablet to keep me occupied on transport or in waiting rooms, and the Reddit model makes that impossible.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 3:34 AM on July 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've taken so long to reply that I'm not sure anyone will see it, but my issues and suggestions fall into two categories: functional issues, and community standards. On the latter, I expect to get criticized, but since I'm using Metafilter less anyway, maybe it doesn't matter.
AskMe - generally great, no notes. Really useful to ask and answer questions about anything.
FanFare - low participation makes it less rewarding than Reddit for discussing most shows, but the bigger problem to me is the general vibe. It's FANfare, so I'm expecting comments from fans of a show, but most threads have a disproportionate number of comments like "I'm just hate-watching this now" or endless ways the commenters would have done things differently, or "I don't care at all about XX's character arc". Maybe this is generational and/or due to the rise of fan fiction and sense of ownership. Someone else made it: I watch it. Equivalent Reddit threads have many more "fun" comments where posters revel in a joke that was told, express excitement, etc. Maybe it's the downvotes and threading that's hiding all the negativity, but I've had to suggest to Mrs. Caviar many times "eh, don't read the FanFare; it'll ruin the show for you." TIL that Ted Lasso season 3 was god-awful shite! Oops, I enjoyed it already ... dang.
The Blue - on the functional side, new threads appear and burn out very quickly. Even if the topic isn't temporal, I rarely find that going back to a week-old thread that's dropped off the front page is ever going to get me any engagement with others. Favorites help a bit, but maybe we could try a categorized view of some kind as an option rather than just tags? Something a bit like r/politics, but not that. I want to see *both* the FP latest posts, *and* lists of things that are related. IDK, maybe we don't have the volume to support channels.
On the community side, this is still better than most places online, but I feel like we've overcorrected from the early days (this is not my first account; I buttoned and returned) in terms of social awareness and respect for non-dominant groups. I know there are plenty of people working to make MF more inclusive, which I absolutely support. However, I think we've lost the ability to assume positive intent, and I also feel like people facing issues and discrimination in RL are bringing them here and turning every discussion into their personal hobby horse. See for example the Chris Evert / Martina Navratilova thread, which quickly became a vehicle to argue about trans participation in sports; not even an argument, really - an assertion with a foregone conclusion. We already have FPPs specifically about that issue, which is great. Unless it's a full JK Rowling situation, it feels unfair to pepper every thread with that kind of stuff (yes, yes, we know about the Guardian ... but this article is about climate change).
I also think we've pushed out or inadvertently silenced people with diverse viewpoints and are turning the site into an echo chamber. Maybe that's not our fault; in the US, at least, that has become the default way we want to engage with media and each other. Right-wingers eschew mainstream news in favor of Fox/Parler/etc. and progressives and leftists splinter off into a million Twitter fiefdoms, which they then mistake as representative of the real world of people we all live, work, and interact with. I wonder if there's a single Republican on this site these days? I am quite left of Biden and despise our capitalist system, but I would be very interested in a debate with thoughtful people who maybe aren't racist (or don't think they are) but who think immigration is out of control, say. I seriously doubt those people, if they ARE here, would pop into an immigration thread to say so in a thoughtful way. Why would they? The small vocal subset of the small subset of people who are MF users, who are a small subset of the people who are Very Online, who are a small subset of actual living real-world people - we/they already know the binary correct answer to every long-running societal debate, and we love to correct people who have the wrong answer or who don't know the answer.
Deep down, that stuff isn't even Reddit/Metafilter, though; I think that large online, geographically diverse, anonymous social media is not built to last. You have fascism rising in the US, all sorts of laws being passed to hurt LGBTQ people, ethnic minorities, and poor people, and so everyone is on edge or whipped into a frenzy. In that climate, if I say "gee, maybe [modest restriction X] on [topic]" ... how would you know if I'm generally on your side, but differing on details, or if I'm Steve Bannon's sockpuppet? You wouldn't. In the old days of meetups and fewer members, I felt like I had a handle on certain people and the breadth of their views, and therefore could cut them some slack on one thoughtless comment or one topic where we disagreed. But most of those people are gone now or are using a new handle.
I used to spend most of my little online time (I personally am not Very Online; this is my only social media really, though I do lurk on Reddit to get game tips and my Fanfare-like fill) here because I wanted to learn about new topics and read interesting comments about subjects that interest me, but it really seems to have changed.
posted by caviar2d2 at 10:40 AM on July 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
AskMe - generally great, no notes. Really useful to ask and answer questions about anything.
FanFare - low participation makes it less rewarding than Reddit for discussing most shows, but the bigger problem to me is the general vibe. It's FANfare, so I'm expecting comments from fans of a show, but most threads have a disproportionate number of comments like "I'm just hate-watching this now" or endless ways the commenters would have done things differently, or "I don't care at all about XX's character arc". Maybe this is generational and/or due to the rise of fan fiction and sense of ownership. Someone else made it: I watch it. Equivalent Reddit threads have many more "fun" comments where posters revel in a joke that was told, express excitement, etc. Maybe it's the downvotes and threading that's hiding all the negativity, but I've had to suggest to Mrs. Caviar many times "eh, don't read the FanFare; it'll ruin the show for you." TIL that Ted Lasso season 3 was god-awful shite! Oops, I enjoyed it already ... dang.
The Blue - on the functional side, new threads appear and burn out very quickly. Even if the topic isn't temporal, I rarely find that going back to a week-old thread that's dropped off the front page is ever going to get me any engagement with others. Favorites help a bit, but maybe we could try a categorized view of some kind as an option rather than just tags? Something a bit like r/politics, but not that. I want to see *both* the FP latest posts, *and* lists of things that are related. IDK, maybe we don't have the volume to support channels.
On the community side, this is still better than most places online, but I feel like we've overcorrected from the early days (this is not my first account; I buttoned and returned) in terms of social awareness and respect for non-dominant groups. I know there are plenty of people working to make MF more inclusive, which I absolutely support. However, I think we've lost the ability to assume positive intent, and I also feel like people facing issues and discrimination in RL are bringing them here and turning every discussion into their personal hobby horse. See for example the Chris Evert / Martina Navratilova thread, which quickly became a vehicle to argue about trans participation in sports; not even an argument, really - an assertion with a foregone conclusion. We already have FPPs specifically about that issue, which is great. Unless it's a full JK Rowling situation, it feels unfair to pepper every thread with that kind of stuff (yes, yes, we know about the Guardian ... but this article is about climate change).
I also think we've pushed out or inadvertently silenced people with diverse viewpoints and are turning the site into an echo chamber. Maybe that's not our fault; in the US, at least, that has become the default way we want to engage with media and each other. Right-wingers eschew mainstream news in favor of Fox/Parler/etc. and progressives and leftists splinter off into a million Twitter fiefdoms, which they then mistake as representative of the real world of people we all live, work, and interact with. I wonder if there's a single Republican on this site these days? I am quite left of Biden and despise our capitalist system, but I would be very interested in a debate with thoughtful people who maybe aren't racist (or don't think they are) but who think immigration is out of control, say. I seriously doubt those people, if they ARE here, would pop into an immigration thread to say so in a thoughtful way. Why would they? The small vocal subset of the small subset of people who are MF users, who are a small subset of the people who are Very Online, who are a small subset of actual living real-world people - we/they already know the binary correct answer to every long-running societal debate, and we love to correct people who have the wrong answer or who don't know the answer.
Deep down, that stuff isn't even Reddit/Metafilter, though; I think that large online, geographically diverse, anonymous social media is not built to last. You have fascism rising in the US, all sorts of laws being passed to hurt LGBTQ people, ethnic minorities, and poor people, and so everyone is on edge or whipped into a frenzy. In that climate, if I say "gee, maybe [modest restriction X] on [topic]" ... how would you know if I'm generally on your side, but differing on details, or if I'm Steve Bannon's sockpuppet? You wouldn't. In the old days of meetups and fewer members, I felt like I had a handle on certain people and the breadth of their views, and therefore could cut them some slack on one thoughtless comment or one topic where we disagreed. But most of those people are gone now or are using a new handle.
I used to spend most of my little online time (I personally am not Very Online; this is my only social media really, though I do lurk on Reddit to get game tips and my Fanfare-like fill) here because I wanted to learn about new topics and read interesting comments about subjects that interest me, but it really seems to have changed.
posted by caviar2d2 at 10:40 AM on July 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm very late to this thread, but wanted to add my two cents: I hate the threaded comments on Reddit. They work OK when two people are having a conversation you want to ignore. They work *terribly* for multiple people trying to have a conversation. You end up with branches all over the place, it becomes really disjointed to read, and you can always tell from the vote numbers that nobody is reading the comments 6 comments down.
I like looking at pictures and posts on Reddit, but every time I try reading the comments I find it a shallow experience because any back and forth on a subject rapidly peters off and then you just get a bunch of variations on the same comment. I get it, maybe this isn't true of your favourite niche subreddit, but it's been my experience for every subreddit I've ever been in and it's a big reason why I prefer Metafilter.
Metafilter IS mean sometimes, god forbid you say something that could be interpreted poorly, and that Titan thread was unkind and goulish even for this eat-the-rich socialist. That's a complicated social problem to fix though, I don't think you can change that meaningfully with features but I'd like to be proved wrong.
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:40 PM on July 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
I like looking at pictures and posts on Reddit, but every time I try reading the comments I find it a shallow experience because any back and forth on a subject rapidly peters off and then you just get a bunch of variations on the same comment. I get it, maybe this isn't true of your favourite niche subreddit, but it's been my experience for every subreddit I've ever been in and it's a big reason why I prefer Metafilter.
Metafilter IS mean sometimes, god forbid you say something that could be interpreted poorly, and that Titan thread was unkind and goulish even for this eat-the-rich socialist. That's a complicated social problem to fix though, I don't think you can change that meaningfully with features but I'd like to be proved wrong.
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:40 PM on July 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
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posted by Mid at 9:02 AM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]