Dealing with illegal questions on AskMe April 17, 2006 10:46 AM Subscribe
Do we need a note on the AskMe "post a question" page that says "Please don't ask for advice on how to do something illegal"?
Yes, indeed! And before I anwser any questions about making cocktails, I insist on some sort of age verification.
posted by squirrel at 10:52 AM on April 17, 2006
posted by squirrel at 10:52 AM on April 17, 2006
No.
There are many valid reasons why someone would want to do something that may be illegal somewhere (which could vary by State or Province let alone by country.) Individual MeFites are perfectly capable of deciding if their personal ethics allow them to answer the question.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:53 AM on April 17, 2006
There are many valid reasons why someone would want to do something that may be illegal somewhere (which could vary by State or Province let alone by country.) Individual MeFites are perfectly capable of deciding if their personal ethics allow them to answer the question.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:53 AM on April 17, 2006
Also, it may be legal to remove the DRM if it's necessary in order to use the product.
posted by delmoi at 10:54 AM on April 17, 2006
posted by delmoi at 10:54 AM on April 17, 2006
jjg posted "Do we need a note on the AskMe 'post a question' page that says 'Please don't ask for advice on how to do something illegal'?"
Dunno. Do we need to not provide advice on how to do something illegal?
posted by Bugbread at 10:54 AM on April 17, 2006
Dunno. Do we need to not provide advice on how to do something illegal?
posted by Bugbread at 10:54 AM on April 17, 2006
jessamyn and I talked about this earlier this morning. I'm kind of on the fence -- normally we kick illegal questions (drugs, warez, etc) but PDFs seemed rather minor, sort of like talking about jaywalking so I didn't vote to remove it.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:56 AM on April 17, 2006
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:56 AM on April 17, 2006
Yeah, right, like he ever leaves the safe confines of the gated community known as Boing Boing.
posted by keswick at 11:01 AM on April 17, 2006
posted by keswick at 11:01 AM on April 17, 2006
I don't need to crack pdf files, but it's an interesting and informative thread anyway, I'm glad it's still up
posted by matteo at 11:09 AM on April 17, 2006
posted by matteo at 11:09 AM on April 17, 2006
The only point of adding that note would be so people could point to it as "the rule" when they want a thread deleted over Matt's objection.
posted by smackfu at 11:15 AM on April 17, 2006
posted by smackfu at 11:15 AM on April 17, 2006
I second matteo and thank Steve_at_Linnwood in that thread - I have needed to do something definitely _not_ illegal to a protected .pdf and now I know how. It is not the question, it's what you do with it. Not that we want questions about where to get the best warez but this is different IMHO.
posted by keijo at 11:22 AM on April 17, 2006
posted by keijo at 11:22 AM on April 17, 2006
this is different IMHO
how is it different? because are books are middle-class, while games are more lower-class? seriously - wht is it ok to hack documents, but not games? they're both data. they're both "victimless" to a similar degree.
i think there are more important issues in the world to get excited about - i'm just curious what the basis is for this (apparently common) decision and the marxist in me sees a class issue...
posted by andrew cooke at 11:43 AM on April 17, 2006
how is it different? because are books are middle-class, while games are more lower-class? seriously - wht is it ok to hack documents, but not games? they're both data. they're both "victimless" to a similar degree.
i think there are more important issues in the world to get excited about - i'm just curious what the basis is for this (apparently common) decision and the marxist in me sees a class issue...
posted by andrew cooke at 11:43 AM on April 17, 2006
I would be so into a site that only answered questions about how to do illegal things. I have no idea where it could be hosted though.
posted by TimeFactor at 11:44 AM on April 17, 2006
posted by TimeFactor at 11:44 AM on April 17, 2006
Maybe you should Ask?
posted by sonofsamiam at 11:51 AM on April 17, 2006
posted by sonofsamiam at 11:51 AM on April 17, 2006
andrew cooke : "the marxist in me sees a class issue..."
I'd guess that it's more a matter of time. The ability to copy books has existed for quite a few centuries. The ability to protect against copying books is only a miniscule part of the history of books. With software, the ability to copy software has existed for decades, but the ability to protect against it is a much larger percentage of the history of software. So, probably, in many people's minds, the default status of "book" is "copyable, though technically illegal", and of "software" is "copyable, but quite illegal".
Just a guess.
posted by Bugbread at 11:52 AM on April 17, 2006
I'd guess that it's more a matter of time. The ability to copy books has existed for quite a few centuries. The ability to protect against copying books is only a miniscule part of the history of books. With software, the ability to copy software has existed for decades, but the ability to protect against it is a much larger percentage of the history of software. So, probably, in many people's minds, the default status of "book" is "copyable, though technically illegal", and of "software" is "copyable, but quite illegal".
Just a guess.
posted by Bugbread at 11:52 AM on April 17, 2006
Circumventing DRM is not illegal in all jurisdictions nor under all circumstances. Neither Matt nor Jess are lawyers and are thus not competant to determine whether many acts would be illegal. They will nuke the most egregious examples.
For questions like this, people should just let it go and quit calling them out.
posted by solid-one-love at 11:59 AM on April 17, 2006
For questions like this, people should just let it go and quit calling them out.
posted by solid-one-love at 11:59 AM on April 17, 2006
My wife doesn't like me crossing when the sign says "DON'T WALK". I insist that I intend to run. Should I get a divorce?
posted by Plutor at 12:05 PM on April 17, 2006
posted by Plutor at 12:05 PM on April 17, 2006
andrew cooke, it is different because posting questions and answers (not actual data) is not illegal in either case (at least in the legal systems I am aware of) BUT posting warez sites and cracks etc. is more likely to get Matt into trouble just because it is such a hot issue with millions of people looking for such information.
Again, it is up to the reader of any information posted here to decide what to do with it.
posted by keijo at 12:10 PM on April 17, 2006
Again, it is up to the reader of any information posted here to decide what to do with it.
posted by keijo at 12:10 PM on April 17, 2006
My wife doesn't like me crossing when the sign says "DON'T WALK". I insist that I intend to run. Should I get a divorce?
No, getting her to run with you will help her lose that weight that's been bugging you.
posted by tkolar at 12:12 PM on April 17, 2006
No, getting her to run with you will help her lose that weight that's been bugging you.
posted by tkolar at 12:12 PM on April 17, 2006
keijo wrote...
Not that we want questions about where to get the best warez but this is different IMHO.
andrew cooke wrote...
how is it different? because are books are middle-class, while games are more lower-class? seriously - wht is it ok to hack documents, but not games?
I can't speak to what keijo was thinking, but I will point out that the repeated posts about Starforce copy protection have presented a lot of ways to get round it.
I think the line being drawn on Metafilter is less about books versus games, and more about "information on breaking copy protection" vs. "Get your free warez here".
posted by tkolar at 12:19 PM on April 17, 2006
Not that we want questions about where to get the best warez but this is different IMHO.
andrew cooke wrote...
how is it different? because are books are middle-class, while games are more lower-class? seriously - wht is it ok to hack documents, but not games?
I can't speak to what keijo was thinking, but I will point out that the repeated posts about Starforce copy protection have presented a lot of ways to get round it.
I think the line being drawn on Metafilter is less about books versus games, and more about "information on breaking copy protection" vs. "Get your free warez here".
posted by tkolar at 12:19 PM on April 17, 2006
because are books are middle-class, while games are more lower-class?
11.02 vs 59.99?
posted by matteo at 12:24 PM on April 17, 2006
11.02 vs 59.99?
posted by matteo at 12:24 PM on April 17, 2006
It's only illegal in certain cases. Example: using some kind of PDF DRM cracking software is illegal (in certain jurisdictions) because you are circumventing the DRM. However, printing to another PDF file isn't, because you're not doing anything to the DRM, and in most cases you're using authors own software to make a free copy.
posted by blue_beetle at 12:26 PM on April 17, 2006
posted by blue_beetle at 12:26 PM on April 17, 2006
how is it different? because are books are middle-class, while games are more lower-class?
Computer games are lower-class? I don't see it. You tend to need a nice computer to run those things, too.
posted by ludwig_van at 12:39 PM on April 17, 2006
Computer games are lower-class? I don't see it. You tend to need a nice computer to run those things, too.
posted by ludwig_van at 12:39 PM on April 17, 2006
I think that this might be a little different because it sounds like he has already planned to purchase the PDF, and isn't trying to crack one that was obtained elsewhere. He simply needs to have the file that he is going to purchase be usable on his laptop and his desktop.
At least that is how it read to me. Seems like a reasonable request.
posted by drstein at 12:40 PM on April 17, 2006
At least that is how it read to me. Seems like a reasonable request.
posted by drstein at 12:40 PM on April 17, 2006
andrew cooke, it is different because posting questions and answers (not actual data) is not illegal in either case (at least in the legal systems I am aware of) BUT posting warez sites and cracks etc. is more likely to get Matt into trouble just because it is such a hot issue with millions of people looking for such information.
That's absurd. I don't think anyone has ever gotten "In trouble" for talking about pirating games. Giving out games? Yes. Giving out cracks, possible. Discussing it? Never happened.
I'm not actually sure what matt's motivation is for these restrictions.
posted by delmoi at 12:44 PM on April 17, 2006
That's absurd. I don't think anyone has ever gotten "In trouble" for talking about pirating games. Giving out games? Yes. Giving out cracks, possible. Discussing it? Never happened.
I'm not actually sure what matt's motivation is for these restrictions.
posted by delmoi at 12:44 PM on April 17, 2006
andrew cooke, it is different because posting questions and answers (not actual data) is not illegal in either case (at least in the legal systems I am aware of) BUT posting warez sites and cracks etc. is more likely to get Matt into trouble just because it is such a hot issue with millions of people looking for such information.
Universal v. Reimerdes
posted by Ryvar at 12:44 PM on April 17, 2006
Universal v. Reimerdes
posted by Ryvar at 12:44 PM on April 17, 2006
I would be so into a site that only answered questions about how to do illegal things. I have no idea where it could be hosted though.
That would be a good AskMe question.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 12:45 PM on April 17, 2006
That would be a good AskMe question.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 12:45 PM on April 17, 2006
What jurisdiction and whose laws do we have to follow? Where I live, where the poster lives or where the server lives?
posted by ?! at 12:45 PM on April 17, 2006
posted by ?! at 12:45 PM on April 17, 2006
The book I purchased was for a term paper I am doing and I am quite paranoid that I'll lose this primary source at the last minute (I'm sure stranger things have happened). In the past I'd copy relevant sections of a book at the campus library (which have copy machines all over the place). The site I bought it from (effectively the publisher) states that I can print out the document. If I make a copy of this printed copy is that illegal? Or if I print to PDF instead of to paper is that illegal? It seems clearly quite ethical and absurd if that is a violation of the letter of the law (and I would guess many courts would believe so too).
It seems like the concept of ownership is gone and I'm simply leasing the book from the company. Oh how sad this is.
posted by geoff. at 1:38 PM on April 17, 2006
It seems like the concept of ownership is gone and I'm simply leasing the book from the company. Oh how sad this is.
posted by geoff. at 1:38 PM on April 17, 2006
I'm not actually sure what matt's motivation is for these restrictions.
posted by delmoi at 2:44 PM CST on April 17
He wants to make sure people don't violate HIPPA.
posted by dios at 1:42 PM on April 17, 2006
posted by delmoi at 2:44 PM CST on April 17
He wants to make sure people don't violate HIPPA.
posted by dios at 1:42 PM on April 17, 2006
Do we need a note on the AskMe "post a question" page that says "Please don't ask for advice on how to do something illegal"?
Somebody want to explain in words of one syllable why on earth this might be necessary?
I don't get it. Seriously.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:47 PM on April 17, 2006
Somebody want to explain in words of one syllable why on earth this might be necessary?
I don't get it. Seriously.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:47 PM on April 17, 2006
If I post a question about schtupping my 14 year old neighbour, will it be deleted? 'cause AFAIK, it's perfectly legal for me to get it on with 14 year olds in Canada.
Or how about partying up with booze with 18 year olds? Legal in Alberta. Not in BC. Definitely not in the USA, where the legal drinking age appears to be twenty-one (!!!)
In Canada, I can lend a friend a CD, and they can legally copy it. (Oddly, it's illegal for me to burn the CD and give it to them.)
Short form: the laws are so variable that, on the internet, there's little point in getting too gung-ho on trying to uphold them.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:51 PM on April 17, 2006
Or how about partying up with booze with 18 year olds? Legal in Alberta. Not in BC. Definitely not in the USA, where the legal drinking age appears to be twenty-one (!!!)
In Canada, I can lend a friend a CD, and they can legally copy it. (Oddly, it's illegal for me to burn the CD and give it to them.)
Short form: the laws are so variable that, on the internet, there's little point in getting too gung-ho on trying to uphold them.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:51 PM on April 17, 2006
dios: I'm pretty sure you mean HIPA.
(HIPAA also acceptable)
posted by sonofsamiam at 2:23 PM on April 17, 2006
(HIPAA also acceptable)
posted by sonofsamiam at 2:23 PM on April 17, 2006
I agree totally with five fresh fish and Space Coyote. Metafilter shouldn't be beholden to laws of any country. Because then where will I get my marijuana butter recipes.
posted by matkline at 2:26 PM on April 17, 2006
posted by matkline at 2:26 PM on April 17, 2006
un-ironic non-misspelled mispelling of HIPAA = ZING FAILURE
posted by cortex at 2:29 PM on April 17, 2006
posted by cortex at 2:29 PM on April 17, 2006
Infamously, asking questions about shady stuff is not always wrong. It also gets you a lot of interesting information (including, sometimes, which members to avoid at meetups).
posted by booksandlibretti at 3:02 PM on April 17, 2006
posted by booksandlibretti at 3:02 PM on April 17, 2006
In the 1930s, women in Quebec were asking shady questions about voting rights.
They got those rights in 1940. Should they not have been asking those questions?
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 3:11 PM on April 17, 2006
They got those rights in 1940. Should they not have been asking those questions?
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 3:11 PM on April 17, 2006
Infamously, asking questions about shady stuff is not always wrong. It also gets you a lot of interesting information (including, sometimes, which members to avoid at meetups).
posted by booksandlibretti at 5:02 PM CST on April 17 [!]
old
posted by cellphone at 3:16 PM on April 17, 2006
posted by booksandlibretti at 5:02 PM CST on April 17 [!]
old
posted by cellphone at 3:16 PM on April 17, 2006
"In the 1930s, women in Quebec were asking shady questions about voting rights. They got those rights in 1940. Should they not have been asking those questions?"
Ah. See? This is why so many sober people think that anti-IP zealots are nucking futs.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:17 PM on April 17, 2006
Ah. See? This is why so many sober people think that anti-IP zealots are nucking futs.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 3:17 PM on April 17, 2006
ZING FAILURE is reified into hyperirony, ironically indistinguishable from guileless unpretension, apriorily precluding any such critiques.
...FOR THE SAVE!!!! GAOOOOOLLLL!!!!!!
posted by sonofsamiam at 3:19 PM on April 17, 2006
...FOR THE SAVE!!!! GAOOOOOLLLL!!!!!!
posted by sonofsamiam at 3:19 PM on April 17, 2006
Fail is not a word
Dammit. I specifically requested the no-hoising finish coat. I'm gonna sue that goddam petard mercharnt.
posted by cortex at 3:37 PM on April 17, 2006
Dammit. I specifically requested the no-hoising finish coat. I'm gonna sue that goddam petard mercharnt.
posted by cortex at 3:37 PM on April 17, 2006
I have no idea where it could be hosted though.
North Korea?
also, I love that HAPPY HAPPY HIPPAS game
posted by matteo at 3:54 PM on April 17, 2006
North Korea?
also, I love that HAPPY HAPPY HIPPAS game
posted by matteo at 3:54 PM on April 17, 2006
ISTM that PDF "protection" is just so lame that nobody could reasonably expect it to be taken seriously. It strikes me as more of an ill-considered nuisance than an actual copy protection mechanism.
IANAL and I don't live in the US.
posted by flabdablet at 4:18 PM on April 17, 2006
IANAL and I don't live in the US.
posted by flabdablet at 4:18 PM on April 17, 2006
I think we should make it easy and just follow the laws of Singapore.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:39 PM on April 17, 2006
posted by five fresh fish at 4:39 PM on April 17, 2006
five fresh fish : "I think we should make it easy and just follow the laws of Singapore."
Agreed. Matt, please add a note on the AskMe "post a question" page that says "Please don't ask questions about chewing gum".
posted by Bugbread at 5:14 PM on April 17, 2006
Agreed. Matt, please add a note on the AskMe "post a question" page that says "Please don't ask questions about chewing gum".
posted by Bugbread at 5:14 PM on April 17, 2006
The police must routinely discuss how illegal things are done, and so must informed citizens who choose to be on the lookout for illegal activities, like people making pot brownies. AskMe is therefore a valuable resource for Heimatsekuritat Homeland Security. An informed citizenry is our best defense against scary foreigners people who hate us for our freedom. Yay AskMe!
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:00 PM on April 17, 2006
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:00 PM on April 17, 2006
Somebody want to explain in words of one syllable why on earth this might be necessary?
But, before you answer, work out how this can be filtered so that it only shows to those for whom it is illegal, which is the minority of people worldwide, as I understand it.
posted by dg at 9:20 PM on April 17, 2006
But, before you answer, work out how this can be filtered so that it only shows to those for whom it is illegal, which is the minority of people worldwide, as I understand it.
posted by dg at 9:20 PM on April 17, 2006
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posted by delmoi at 10:51 AM on April 17, 2006