How much cash would it take for Matt to quit his job and devote himself to moderating Mefi? August 8, 2004 11:27 AM Subscribe
mathowie has written that if it generated enough cash he'd quit his job and devote himself to moderating and maintaining MetaFilter. This prompts two questions:
I hear that being a front for Al Qaeda can be profitable.
posted by mischief at 11:33 AM on August 8, 2004
posted by mischief at 11:33 AM on August 8, 2004
Shit, man, if we could just monetize the marketing dollar value of all the Pepsi Blue posts we'd every one of us be wiping our asses with Benjamins.
posted by scarabic at 11:54 AM on August 8, 2004
posted by scarabic at 11:54 AM on August 8, 2004
i didn't feel prompted by two questions. this prompts the question:
- why did you?
I'm not going down this path again... I still remember when rusty raised $70,000 to make k5 his full-time job, and then promptly set about leaving it to rot.
posted by reklaw at 11:57 AM on August 8, 2004
posted by reklaw at 11:57 AM on August 8, 2004
If Matt were open to hiring people to develop new features under his supervision, I think we could easily raise several thousand here and several thousand there for the expressed purpose of developing feature X or Y.
Your own collaboration with Matt on the user-linking seems very promising in this regard. I would like to see more collaboration with others who have the time Matt doesn't have. If we, as the users, can offer some funding to the arrangement, all the better.
But somehow I suspect Matt is partial to "letting the site idle on for another five years."
posted by scarabic at 12:03 PM on August 8, 2004
Your own collaboration with Matt on the user-linking seems very promising in this regard. I would like to see more collaboration with others who have the time Matt doesn't have. If we, as the users, can offer some funding to the arrangement, all the better.
But somehow I suspect Matt is partial to "letting the site idle on for another five years."
posted by scarabic at 12:03 PM on August 8, 2004
** and goddammit it's his site and he can do just that if he damn well pleases **
/preemptive
posted by scarabic at 12:04 PM on August 8, 2004
/preemptive
posted by scarabic at 12:04 PM on August 8, 2004
Prompting the question or begging the question?
I don't know anything about MetaFilter. It's MetaFilter and that's all I know about it.
monetize the marketing dollar value of all the Pepsi Blue posts
Yeah, 'cause we singlehandedly made Pepsi Blue popular, didn't we? Or maybe Matt's not doing that kind of thing because THAT'S THE WAY DREW FARKER DOES THINGS.
Sorry for shouting.
posted by wendell at 1:33 PM on August 8, 2004
I don't know anything about MetaFilter. It's MetaFilter and that's all I know about it.
monetize the marketing dollar value of all the Pepsi Blue posts
Yeah, 'cause we singlehandedly made Pepsi Blue popular, didn't we? Or maybe Matt's not doing that kind of thing because THAT'S THE WAY DREW FARKER DOES THINGS.
Sorry for shouting.
posted by wendell at 1:33 PM on August 8, 2004
NO PROBLEM!!1!!!11!
posted by Quartermass at 1:52 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by Quartermass at 1:52 PM on August 8, 2004
I'd be careful what you wish for, you might get it, etc., etc.
posted by carter at 2:00 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by carter at 2:00 PM on August 8, 2004
Does this mean that if Matt has a wealthy, sick and elderly aunt who isn't fixated on cat homes all our problems are over?
posted by dodgygeezer at 2:43 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by dodgygeezer at 2:43 PM on August 8, 2004
Your own collaboration with Matt on the user-linking seems very promising in this regard. I would like to see more collaboration with others who have the time Matt doesn't have.
I don't think that he currently has enough time to manage this process. Because Matt's natural reluctance to give access to the server, once you hand him some code, all you can do is watch in horror as it falls apart under real world conditions. The whole thing probably wound up taking more of Matt's time than if he did it himself.
The same thing applies to moderation: I think appointing more moderators is a great idea, but I think Matt would wind up spending more time supervising the moderators than he spends moderating the site himself now.
Everything comes down to time; Matt's an incredibly busy guy. While we may wish that he'd give up his other websites, hobbies and social life and concentrate on MetaFilter, I don't think he's going to do that.
The only way we're going to get more of Matt's time is to pay for it and the only semi-dependable ways of raising the money to pay for it that I can think of is through more advertising or through user subscription fees of some kind.
posted by timeistight at 2:53 PM on August 8, 2004
I don't think that he currently has enough time to manage this process. Because Matt's natural reluctance to give access to the server, once you hand him some code, all you can do is watch in horror as it falls apart under real world conditions. The whole thing probably wound up taking more of Matt's time than if he did it himself.
The same thing applies to moderation: I think appointing more moderators is a great idea, but I think Matt would wind up spending more time supervising the moderators than he spends moderating the site himself now.
Everything comes down to time; Matt's an incredibly busy guy. While we may wish that he'd give up his other websites, hobbies and social life and concentrate on MetaFilter, I don't think he's going to do that.
The only way we're going to get more of Matt's time is to pay for it and the only semi-dependable ways of raising the money to pay for it that I can think of is through more advertising or through user subscription fees of some kind.
posted by timeistight at 2:53 PM on August 8, 2004
membership.
posted by andrew cooke at 4:21 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by andrew cooke at 4:21 PM on August 8, 2004
I'm hoping someone will pay for a large list of other users, with links to specific defining quotes those users have made.
posted by jonson at 4:21 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by jonson at 4:21 PM on August 8, 2004
It seems to me that the problem is, once you make changes or start adding features, it's no longer the Metafilter we've come to love. Paid placement, moderation, karma and kill files (along with a dozen other proposals that escape me at the moment) could change the site drastically. Suddenly rather than paying for MetaFilter we're paying for some as yet undetermined 'new and improved' MetaFilter.
It's the simplicity of design and ease of use that make this joint different from all the others. I'm not about to encourage the /.ing of MeFi, the last thing in the world I want is you clowns voting on my worthiness and I sure as hell don't want to vote on yours.
Contrary to popular opinion I think it works just fine; sure, it would be nice to have some new members but it's not a deal breaker. I's sure if there was a magic bullet that would suddenly make people (or advertisers) say, "Oh cool, _____. Now that's worth $____. Where do I send my money," someone smarter than myself would have thought of it by now.
posted by cedar at 4:23 PM on August 8, 2004
It's the simplicity of design and ease of use that make this joint different from all the others. I'm not about to encourage the /.ing of MeFi, the last thing in the world I want is you clowns voting on my worthiness and I sure as hell don't want to vote on yours.
Contrary to popular opinion I think it works just fine; sure, it would be nice to have some new members but it's not a deal breaker. I's sure if there was a magic bullet that would suddenly make people (or advertisers) say, "Oh cool, _____. Now that's worth $____. Where do I send my money," someone smarter than myself would have thought of it by now.
posted by cedar at 4:23 PM on August 8, 2004
ponies, hookers, blow, and "industry expert" status. ; >
more customization would be cool, and archival cd/dvds would definitely be worth bucks. (Maybe selling them would raise enough in itself?)
posted by amberglow at 4:38 PM on August 8, 2004
more customization would be cool, and archival cd/dvds would definitely be worth bucks. (Maybe selling them would raise enough in itself?)
posted by amberglow at 4:38 PM on August 8, 2004
I personally would hate a killfile. I hate the idea, and I cannot envision any set of features that are worth adding a killfile to Metafilter. Killfiles would only diminish Metafilter (which I suppose would be the point) but I think it's a very bad idea.
posted by Apoch at 4:58 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by Apoch at 4:58 PM on August 8, 2004
Maybe cool official titles to put after our names.
e.g.
Leo Trotsky, Mem. Mefi.
Quonsar, Grd. Hgh. Vzr. Mefi.
Time Is Tight, Mem. Mefi. Fnd. Of. Blt. Pts.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:06 PM on August 8, 2004
e.g.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:06 PM on August 8, 2004
archival cd/dvds would definitely be worth bucks
I've never understood this argument. What would be the point of having a frozen slice of MeFi in a plastic sleeve, versus being able to access the living organism? If Matt decided to shut down the site and delete the archives, yeah, I'd probably be interested in a memento, but otherwise, the site itself is infinitely superior.
Like cedar, I think it's fine as is -- as fine as it can be in this imperfect world, that is. Let a few new users trickle in once in a while by whatever ad hoc methods appeal, if new blood is desired, but forget the killfiles, moderation, and other bells and whistles. Simplicity is good.
posted by languagehat at 5:08 PM on August 8, 2004
I've never understood this argument. What would be the point of having a frozen slice of MeFi in a plastic sleeve, versus being able to access the living organism? If Matt decided to shut down the site and delete the archives, yeah, I'd probably be interested in a memento, but otherwise, the site itself is infinitely superior.
Like cedar, I think it's fine as is -- as fine as it can be in this imperfect world, that is. Let a few new users trickle in once in a while by whatever ad hoc methods appeal, if new blood is desired, but forget the killfiles, moderation, and other bells and whistles. Simplicity is good.
posted by languagehat at 5:08 PM on August 8, 2004
"I love our new baby!"
"Me too!"
"If only it could stay this age always!"
"Maybe if we shook it or something...?"
posted by quonsar at 5:14 PM on August 8, 2004
"Me too!"
"If only it could stay this age always!"
"Maybe if we shook it or something...?"
posted by quonsar at 5:14 PM on August 8, 2004
I think there's little doubt that people would pay just for membership, not expecting new features. However, the big downside of this, as you've already mentioned, Matt, is that this would put MeFi into a service/customer context. I think that, alone, would change many things for the worse. People rightly feel a sense of entitlement when they've paid for something.
Just fix your daily limit code and resume having periodic, very limited signups. Surely, surely, there is a small enough rate of new users that is within your means to deal with. Having just one new member a day would be enough, I think, to keep things fresh.
Otherwise, like many others, I don't think you should change anything. If you can make money from the site via a few relatively inconspicuous ads, I think you should—if it's enough to pay your bills or even a salary, great. But trying to figure out how to turn MeFi into a full-time job—I can't stress this enough—will Lead to Madness. Yours. No one would be happy. Like others, my impression is that you, least of all, would be happy. What do I know? Just my impression. Strong impression.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:18 PM on August 8, 2004
Just fix your daily limit code and resume having periodic, very limited signups. Surely, surely, there is a small enough rate of new users that is within your means to deal with. Having just one new member a day would be enough, I think, to keep things fresh.
Otherwise, like many others, I don't think you should change anything. If you can make money from the site via a few relatively inconspicuous ads, I think you should—if it's enough to pay your bills or even a salary, great. But trying to figure out how to turn MeFi into a full-time job—I can't stress this enough—will Lead to Madness. Yours. No one would be happy. Like others, my impression is that you, least of all, would be happy. What do I know? Just my impression. Strong impression.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:18 PM on August 8, 2004
What would be the point of having a frozen slice of MeFi in a plastic sleeve, versus being able to access the living organism?
It would serve as a good blackmail tool if anyone here ever runs for office, for one thing. And having a Mefi box set would serve as a tangible reminder forever, long after the net is gone. Or if something happened. How many things from the past have been lost--from early internet sites to tv shows from the early 50s to those wax audio cylinders to whole libraries of knowledge? We all have made this what it is--i for one would love to have a concrete reminder of that.
posted by amberglow at 5:21 PM on August 8, 2004
It would serve as a good blackmail tool if anyone here ever runs for office, for one thing. And having a Mefi box set would serve as a tangible reminder forever, long after the net is gone. Or if something happened. How many things from the past have been lost--from early internet sites to tv shows from the early 50s to those wax audio cylinders to whole libraries of knowledge? We all have made this what it is--i for one would love to have a concrete reminder of that.
posted by amberglow at 5:21 PM on August 8, 2004
While we may wish that he'd give up his other websites, hobbies and social life and concentrate on MetaFilter, I don't think he's going to do that.
Foolish man! Does he not know that MetaFilter Is Life!
I life MetaFilter as-is. Shaken or not.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:21 PM on August 8, 2004
Foolish man! Does he not know that MetaFilter Is Life!
I life MetaFilter as-is. Shaken or not.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:21 PM on August 8, 2004
Ignore Ethereal Bligh.
People are hooked. "More addictive than crack". You can milk that for a salary, easily.
posted by beth at 5:24 PM on August 8, 2004
People are hooked. "More addictive than crack". You can milk that for a salary, easily.
posted by beth at 5:24 PM on August 8, 2004
Alright here's the plan:
1. We all put together our very best contacts to meet minor celebrities.
2. Convince them they are not mathowie.
3. Sell the results.
4. Profit.
We can't lose.
posted by jmgorman at 5:25 PM on August 8, 2004
1. We all put together our very best contacts to meet minor celebrities.
2. Convince them they are not mathowie.
3. Sell the results.
4. Profit.
We can't lose.
posted by jmgorman at 5:25 PM on August 8, 2004
Ignore Beth.
Paying users will be way more obnoxious than me and her combined.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:41 PM on August 8, 2004
Paying users will be way more obnoxious than me and her combined.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 5:41 PM on August 8, 2004
I think appointing more moderators is a great idea, but I think Matt would wind up spending more time supervising the moderators than he spends moderating the site himself now.
Well, there's the rub. He might spend 1.25x as much of his own time, but we could get 5x as much moderating done. I can imagine that you and he had a bit of a ramp-up before you could work effectively together, but second go-round might be easier. It's called early investment for long-term gain.
The only way Matt is ever going to have more time is if he gets help. Building some relationships with interested parties who can help make things better around here is going to require effort, but it's the only way out of the vicious circle.
It's like saying that you can't hire an exterminator because you have no money, and you have no money because you have no job, and you can't get a job because you're too busy stepping on ants.
posted by scarabic at 5:49 PM on August 8, 2004
Well, there's the rub. He might spend 1.25x as much of his own time, but we could get 5x as much moderating done. I can imagine that you and he had a bit of a ramp-up before you could work effectively together, but second go-round might be easier. It's called early investment for long-term gain.
The only way Matt is ever going to have more time is if he gets help. Building some relationships with interested parties who can help make things better around here is going to require effort, but it's the only way out of the vicious circle.
It's like saying that you can't hire an exterminator because you have no money, and you have no money because you have no job, and you can't get a job because you're too busy stepping on ants.
posted by scarabic at 5:49 PM on August 8, 2004
I can imagine that you and he had a bit of a ramp-up before you could work effectively together…
I think it's more like we stalled half way up the hill.
posted by timeistight at 6:04 PM on August 8, 2004
I think it's more like we stalled half way up the hill.
posted by timeistight at 6:04 PM on August 8, 2004
Ouch!
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:11 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 6:11 PM on August 8, 2004
archival cd/dvds would definitely be worth bucks
Try this. This is safe, it doesn't change the nature of the place. Make it easy by setting up a secure system for purchase by credit card. Add enhancements like a list of the best threads, a video interview of Matt by a well known Mefite.
posted by JohnR at 6:16 PM on August 8, 2004
Try this. This is safe, it doesn't change the nature of the place. Make it easy by setting up a secure system for purchase by credit card. Add enhancements like a list of the best threads, a video interview of Matt by a well known Mefite.
posted by JohnR at 6:16 PM on August 8, 2004
I would pay for the ability to deliver electric shocks to the genitals of those with whom I disagree.
Well, no I wouldn't, but it'd still be pretty cool.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:20 PM on August 8, 2004
Well, no I wouldn't, but it'd still be pretty cool.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:20 PM on August 8, 2004
You could just replace the sidebar with blogads (and then not show them to logged-in users, because they are kind of obnoxious). Those things bring in way more than Google AdSense, or at least so I've heard.
posted by reklaw at 6:26 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by reklaw at 6:26 PM on August 8, 2004
what would you want for a "membership?"
I actually think the Photo Hosting idea would be useful, as there are plenty of times when one needs an illustration in a post and then you have to remember to put it on your own site, and then a year from now when you move it, the original thread makes less sense (and most of those free photo hosting sites are spam-happy or irritating to use). Combine that with a @metafilter email address and that would be worth some $$.
posted by milovoo at 6:28 PM on August 8, 2004
I actually think the Photo Hosting idea would be useful, as there are plenty of times when one needs an illustration in a post and then you have to remember to put it on your own site, and then a year from now when you move it, the original thread makes less sense (and most of those free photo hosting sites are spam-happy or irritating to use). Combine that with a @metafilter email address and that would be worth some $$.
posted by milovoo at 6:28 PM on August 8, 2004
I would pay for the ability to deliver electric shocks to the genitals of those with whom I disagree.
weirdo.
posted by Quartermass at 6:28 PM on August 8, 2004
weirdo.
posted by Quartermass at 6:28 PM on August 8, 2004
... Oh, and personals.metafilter.com would be hot. You could just use the spring street system.
OK, realistically it would probably be more frightening than hot, but still fun.
posted by milovoo at 6:30 PM on August 8, 2004
OK, realistically it would probably be more frightening than hot, but still fun.
posted by milovoo at 6:30 PM on August 8, 2004
Combine that with a @metafilter email address and that would be worth some $$.
I'd pay a few dollars for a metafilter.com email address, perhaps more if it had a decent webmail interface thrown in. memail.metafilter.com?
posted by reklaw at 6:30 PM on August 8, 2004
I'd pay a few dollars for a metafilter.com email address, perhaps more if it had a decent webmail interface thrown in. memail.metafilter.com?
posted by reklaw at 6:30 PM on August 8, 2004
I (like Fred Durst) am in agreeance that Metafilter is worth my hard earned money. But then again, I have pretty much abandoned every other community/web site that starts charging for "premium service," (I was a total farker for a month, but really, how many "duke sucks" posts can a guy read in a day before going totally fucking insaine?). That being said, I like Metafilter enough to stick with it, as long as it didn't change in some fundamental way.
posted by Quartermass at 6:39 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by Quartermass at 6:39 PM on August 8, 2004
archival cd/dvds would definitely be worth bucks
Try this. This is safe, it doesn't change the nature of the place. Make it easy by setting up a secure system for purchase by credit card. Add enhancements like a list of the best threads, a video interview of Matt by a well known Mefite.
What he said. And a featurette on taglines/memes/memorable things (this broomstick--it vibrates? kind of stuff) would be cool too. I'm sure there are people here that could make them for free. : >
posted by amberglow at 6:40 PM on August 8, 2004
Try this. This is safe, it doesn't change the nature of the place. Make it easy by setting up a secure system for purchase by credit card. Add enhancements like a list of the best threads, a video interview of Matt by a well known Mefite.
What he said. And a featurette on taglines/memes/memorable things (this broomstick--it vibrates? kind of stuff) would be cool too. I'm sure there are people here that could make them for free. : >
posted by amberglow at 6:40 PM on August 8, 2004
oh, and if we could get permission, that flash thing of the metafilter thread where we discuss the artist's flash text things--and other cool out of site things like that.
posted by amberglow at 6:44 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by amberglow at 6:44 PM on August 8, 2004
jmgorman, you had to link to that ebay auction... like I could ever resist...
posted by wendell at 6:52 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by wendell at 6:52 PM on August 8, 2004
I would also pay in, probably to the tune of around $50 a year, but I'd want to see improvements start happening:
* Distributed moderation, working from well-definied, published guidelines of good/bad posts and behavior
* Post tagging and the ability to filter out categories you don't want to see
* Better uptime
* Better search
* Open registration with a user-sponsorhip system and a probationary period
* A spell-checker
You know, the long-standing laundry list. Forget the new shit. But that's the problem with starting to take people's money. You can't get away with the "labor of love" excuse anymore. And while you struggle to get the basic features up to snuff, people begin clamoring for stuff like mail accounts, blog hosting, and rectal videoconferencing.
posted by scarabic at 6:56 PM on August 8, 2004
* Distributed moderation, working from well-definied, published guidelines of good/bad posts and behavior
* Post tagging and the ability to filter out categories you don't want to see
* Better uptime
* Better search
* Open registration with a user-sponsorhip system and a probationary period
* A spell-checker
You know, the long-standing laundry list. Forget the new shit. But that's the problem with starting to take people's money. You can't get away with the "labor of love" excuse anymore. And while you struggle to get the basic features up to snuff, people begin clamoring for stuff like mail accounts, blog hosting, and rectal videoconferencing.
posted by scarabic at 6:56 PM on August 8, 2004
rectal videoconferencing
yup, we always get distracted by the asscam.
posted by milovoo at 7:04 PM on August 8, 2004
yup, we always get distracted by the asscam.
posted by milovoo at 7:04 PM on August 8, 2004
If I wanted an asscam, I'd sign up for Total Fark.
MetaFilter blog hosting? Perfect for those GYODB moments, and it'd be the prestige subdomain on the Web...
ooh... wendell.metafilter.com... excuse me, I think I need a sweat sock...
posted by wendell at 7:32 PM on August 8, 2004
MetaFilter blog hosting? Perfect for those GYODB moments, and it'd be the prestige subdomain on the Web...
ooh... wendell.metafilter.com... excuse me, I think I need a sweat sock...
posted by wendell at 7:32 PM on August 8, 2004
when i said "membership" i was thinking of people who were not currently members, paying to get logins (one-off payments).
posted by andrew cooke at 7:53 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by andrew cooke at 7:53 PM on August 8, 2004
Can't you just find some sucker to give you a bazillion dollars to buy it outright, and then turn around and start a new one from scratch?
posted by spilon at 8:07 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by spilon at 8:07 PM on August 8, 2004
incidentally, if you charged only newcomers for logins you would avoid/defer the sense of entitlement somewhat since (1) the majority of users would (initially) be people who didn't pay and (2) the contribution would be seen as a one-off fee for access rather than as paying for maintenance/service.
posted by andrew cooke at 8:10 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by andrew cooke at 8:10 PM on August 8, 2004
I doubt that charging new users for access will help cover the costs of Metafilter. Even if people are paying a fee to get in, I doubt Matt will want to let in more than a small trickle at anyone time. His workload will be the same whether the new users pay or not, and I cannot see Matt charging enough to cover the cost of his time just to be able to join.
posted by Apoch at 8:55 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by Apoch at 8:55 PM on August 8, 2004
I would gladly pay for a @metafilter email address, not so sure if I'd pay for premium content or not.
posted by drezdn at 9:24 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by drezdn at 9:24 PM on August 8, 2004
There is so much noise in this thread so apologies in advance:
I will pay Matt $100 a year just to be identified as a premium sponsor with no additional priviledges!
Thanks.
posted by vacapinta at 9:36 PM on August 8, 2004
I will pay Matt $100 a year just to be identified as a premium sponsor with no additional priviledges!
Thanks.
posted by vacapinta at 9:36 PM on August 8, 2004
PDF download of one single NYT archives article: $2.95
vacapinta's soul: $100
License to reprint on AP story for three months: $175.00
Content tagging system for screening NewsFilter: priceless.
posted by scarabic at 9:41 PM on August 8, 2004
vacapinta's soul: $100
License to reprint on AP story for three months: $175.00
Content tagging system for screening NewsFilter: priceless.
posted by scarabic at 9:41 PM on August 8, 2004
One more thing:
(Like you never noticed the resemblence)
posted by wendell at 10:12 PM on August 8, 2004
(Like you never noticed the resemblence)
posted by wendell at 10:12 PM on August 8, 2004
You could just replace the sidebar with blogads (and then not show them to logged-in users, because they are kind of obnoxious).
This one wins.
The great unwashed will hate us even more than "login" did. There was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the login posts and over on MonkeyFilter about us lucky few that do have accounts. Forcing them to see a bigass banner ad in the middle of a thread will drive them spare.
But, hell, why not? Why not make the advertising a little more obtrusive for the unlogged-in? They'll still be here reading in droves. Might as well let Matt cash in on our popularity. No skin off my ass if someone who worship's the posts of Five Fresh Fish (get help, you loon!) also decides to click on some advertisement or other.
Do I want to see ads? Hell, no! So don't bother foisting them on us lucky logged-in bastards. Even if the great masses think that's really just too unfair.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:17 PM on August 8, 2004
This one wins.
The great unwashed will hate us even more than "login" did. There was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the login posts and over on MonkeyFilter about us lucky few that do have accounts. Forcing them to see a bigass banner ad in the middle of a thread will drive them spare.
But, hell, why not? Why not make the advertising a little more obtrusive for the unlogged-in? They'll still be here reading in droves. Might as well let Matt cash in on our popularity. No skin off my ass if someone who worship's the posts of Five Fresh Fish (get help, you loon!) also decides to click on some advertisement or other.
Do I want to see ads? Hell, no! So don't bother foisting them on us lucky logged-in bastards. Even if the great masses think that's really just too unfair.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:17 PM on August 8, 2004
And provide the option to purchase your way into an account and out of bigass banner ad hell...
posted by jonson at 11:26 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by jonson at 11:26 PM on August 8, 2004
Sell Metafilter on ebay, collect the cash and go home. I don't think Matt's ever going to make that much money off of metafilter, and iy'll always be more hassle than it's worth. Sell it, move on and make something new and exciting.
posted by seanyboy at 11:36 PM on August 8, 2004
posted by seanyboy at 11:36 PM on August 8, 2004
What would users pay for?
I would pay $3.00 - $5.00 a month just to be able to post and comment if/when I feel like it.
Right now, I can do that for free (well aside from the first 5 bux)
Also, at 17,000 members, @ 5.00 a month, well, you do the math (because I am bad at math and don't want to), that's a hell of a lot of money! Sure you'll lose some members I guess, but even *only* 3000 members x 5.00 per month equals a helluva lot more than you make now, unless you make over $15,000.00 a month. (Doubtful, very doubtful.) Hell, even $1.00 a month would actually make a heck of a profit, if the lower price made more people stay. That's all accounting crap though, and I am sorry, but I am not a business major, here. These are just a few ideas.
For those who said they would pay $50.00 a year - at $72.00 a year, that's only a few bucks more and those who said they'd pay $100, that's a few bucks less! :)
I guess, think of it like a gym membership, sure when people first sign up, they will come and be a resource drain or whatever. After a few weeks, most of them will only visit from time to time, when it suits them or when the topic posted is something they care about.
It's like how children always want what they cannot have, but hell, you give them a sip of your beer (DO NOT actually do this) they say: "EW!!!" and don't want the beer.
;)
I guess I just think that with the supply and demand, I think at $5.00 a month, well, people who really want to be here will stay.
I would and I haven't hardly said a thing for 2 years! :)
All I would want for it is that it keeps being up and running and that it runs pretty much as it has.
I think that aside from the odd retarded post (and hey, even those are snarkworthy) the people here are policing themselves pretty well.
I don't think that will change. Why should it?
Oh and I would still keep the memberships only a few a month, that keeps the demand high. If you just let everyone in, no offense to "everyone" it won't be a "thing" anymore. Know what I mean?
Of course, if that's not what you (Matt) want to do, then don't.
Do whatever the hell you like, because people will want to be here or not for their own reasons anyway. I mean, according to a lot of people, you (Matt) don't fix stuff, you don't add features, blah blah whine whatever, and they're all still here, so I say, do whatever you like! It's just that if you decide to go on a "Per Month" basis, I'll still be here and I would bet one helluva lot of the rest of the MeFites will too.
posted by erratic frog at 4:30 AM on August 9, 2004
I would pay $3.00 - $5.00 a month just to be able to post and comment if/when I feel like it.
Right now, I can do that for free (well aside from the first 5 bux)
Also, at 17,000 members, @ 5.00 a month, well, you do the math (because I am bad at math and don't want to), that's a hell of a lot of money! Sure you'll lose some members I guess, but even *only* 3000 members x 5.00 per month equals a helluva lot more than you make now, unless you make over $15,000.00 a month. (Doubtful, very doubtful.) Hell, even $1.00 a month would actually make a heck of a profit, if the lower price made more people stay. That's all accounting crap though, and I am sorry, but I am not a business major, here. These are just a few ideas.
For those who said they would pay $50.00 a year - at $72.00 a year, that's only a few bucks more and those who said they'd pay $100, that's a few bucks less! :)
I guess, think of it like a gym membership, sure when people first sign up, they will come and be a resource drain or whatever. After a few weeks, most of them will only visit from time to time, when it suits them or when the topic posted is something they care about.
It's like how children always want what they cannot have, but hell, you give them a sip of your beer (DO NOT actually do this) they say: "EW!!!" and don't want the beer.
;)
I guess I just think that with the supply and demand, I think at $5.00 a month, well, people who really want to be here will stay.
I would and I haven't hardly said a thing for 2 years! :)
All I would want for it is that it keeps being up and running and that it runs pretty much as it has.
I think that aside from the odd retarded post (and hey, even those are snarkworthy) the people here are policing themselves pretty well.
I don't think that will change. Why should it?
Oh and I would still keep the memberships only a few a month, that keeps the demand high. If you just let everyone in, no offense to "everyone" it won't be a "thing" anymore. Know what I mean?
Of course, if that's not what you (Matt) want to do, then don't.
Do whatever the hell you like, because people will want to be here or not for their own reasons anyway. I mean, according to a lot of people, you (Matt) don't fix stuff, you don't add features, blah blah whine whatever, and they're all still here, so I say, do whatever you like! It's just that if you decide to go on a "Per Month" basis, I'll still be here and I would bet one helluva lot of the rest of the MeFites will too.
posted by erratic frog at 4:30 AM on August 9, 2004
I doubt that charging new users for access will help cover the costs of Metafilter.
i don't know what the costs are, but 10 new users a day at $10 a pop comes out at about my wage. so matt could move to chile (where that's a very good wage!) or, more practically, could take quite a few months a year off work (working on mefi or doing whatever he likes).
or what seanyboy said, which is what i'd find tempting. but maybe informal enquiries indicate that the going rate for this place is very little?
posted by andrew cooke at 4:30 AM on August 9, 2004
i don't know what the costs are, but 10 new users a day at $10 a pop comes out at about my wage. so matt could move to chile (where that's a very good wage!) or, more practically, could take quite a few months a year off work (working on mefi or doing whatever he likes).
or what seanyboy said, which is what i'd find tempting. but maybe informal enquiries indicate that the going rate for this place is very little?
posted by andrew cooke at 4:30 AM on August 9, 2004
I'd buy a t-shirt.
I think many of you are insane, and should probably visit slashdot more often before making dangerous suggestions about moderation.
posted by cell at 4:58 AM on August 9, 2004
I think many of you are insane, and should probably visit slashdot more often before making dangerous suggestions about moderation.
posted by cell at 4:58 AM on August 9, 2004
Also, at 17,000 members, @ 5.00 a month, well, you do the math (because I am bad at math and don't want to), that's a hell of a lot of money! Sure you'll lose some members I guess, but even *only* 3000 members x 5.00 per month equals a helluva lot more than you make now
*sigh*
As has been discussed at great, great, great length, many many times before: there are at the most a thousand or so active posters here. Nothing like 17K, not even close.
So using your 1 in 5 guesstimate, that'd be maybe 200 people who'd pay 5 bucks a month. Not lookin' so hot as a revenue stream no more...
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:15 AM on August 9, 2004
*sigh*
As has been discussed at great, great, great length, many many times before: there are at the most a thousand or so active posters here. Nothing like 17K, not even close.
So using your 1 in 5 guesstimate, that'd be maybe 200 people who'd pay 5 bucks a month. Not lookin' so hot as a revenue stream no more...
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:15 AM on August 9, 2004
Matt: Don't change too much, nor too quickly.
*No killfiles, for the reasons already stated (how fascistic, not to want to hear your oponents views!)
*No email addresses (look at it this way: what would you think of a mesage from blah@El-Gee-Eff.com?)
*PM/IM: maybe - it can help to avoid flameouts, I 'd say.
* Post tagging and the ability to filter out categories you don't want to see - I like this idea, but not for me (I already know how to scroll...) - it can assist those psychologically opposed to N*wsfilter, for example.
* Better uptime: crucial - improve this and we'll all be in your debt.
* Better search: just needs no further explanation.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:36 AM on August 9, 2004
*No killfiles, for the reasons already stated (how fascistic, not to want to hear your oponents views!)
*No email addresses (look at it this way: what would you think of a mesage from blah@El-Gee-Eff.com?)
*PM/IM: maybe - it can help to avoid flameouts, I 'd say.
* Post tagging and the ability to filter out categories you don't want to see - I like this idea, but not for me (I already know how to scroll...) - it can assist those psychologically opposed to N*wsfilter, for example.
* Better uptime: crucial - improve this and we'll all be in your debt.
* Better search: just needs no further explanation.
posted by dash_slot- at 5:36 AM on August 9, 2004
Stavros chicken:
OK, there are 16,000 odd whatever members, right?
Did I say *anything* about People who post here uhm, survey says: BZZZZT!
Next time, read the post, comprehend the post *then* comment.
Also, just because it's been discussed 100 whatever times here, doesn't mean that my *opinion* (See dictionary for clues) is invalid.
You assume that my estimate is WAY OFF THE MARK, but I also think that yours is. Does that mean we cancel each other out?
Finally, as I said in my post, I don't post much, but I would pay the fee just to be able to post or comment when I feel like it.
I think that there are a LOT of people who may NOT post actively but would like the opportunity to do so if they like, whether or not they feel the need to add a (useless) comment to every single post they read. Some of us are content posting only when we feel we can add something productive to the discussion.
Some people comment just to spout tripe.
However, that doesn't mean that I want to give away my membership or think I am above paying just because I don't feel the incessant need to run my mouth like some people who will remain nameless *COUGH!stavroschicken!COUGH!*
posted by erratic frog at 6:00 AM on August 9, 2004
OK, there are 16,000 odd whatever members, right?
Did I say *anything* about People who post here uhm, survey says: BZZZZT!
Next time, read the post, comprehend the post *then* comment.
Also, just because it's been discussed 100 whatever times here, doesn't mean that my *opinion* (See dictionary for clues) is invalid.
You assume that my estimate is WAY OFF THE MARK, but I also think that yours is. Does that mean we cancel each other out?
Finally, as I said in my post, I don't post much, but I would pay the fee just to be able to post or comment when I feel like it.
I think that there are a LOT of people who may NOT post actively but would like the opportunity to do so if they like, whether or not they feel the need to add a (useless) comment to every single post they read. Some of us are content posting only when we feel we can add something productive to the discussion.
Some people comment just to spout tripe.
However, that doesn't mean that I want to give away my membership or think I am above paying just because I don't feel the incessant need to run my mouth like some people who will remain nameless *COUGH!stavroschicken!COUGH!*
posted by erratic frog at 6:00 AM on August 9, 2004
gribbit.
posted by PrinceValium at 6:04 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by PrinceValium at 6:04 AM on August 9, 2004
wow, erratic frog, with bile like that maybe you should go back to not posting very often. Some of us are content posting only when we feel we can add something productive to the discussion. Practice what you preach, froggy.
posted by ashbury at 6:24 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by ashbury at 6:24 AM on August 9, 2004
it's no longer the Metafilter we've come to love
Have you ever heard of the phrase "evolve or die"?
posted by darukaru at 6:29 AM on August 9, 2004
Have you ever heard of the phrase "evolve or die"?
posted by darukaru at 6:29 AM on August 9, 2004
wow, erratic frog, with bile like ...
Well, characteristically, stav did jump on and condescend to the frog, on her first ever MeTa comment.
posted by Shane at 6:36 AM on August 9, 2004
Well, characteristically, stav did jump on and condescend to the frog, on her first ever MeTa comment.
posted by Shane at 6:36 AM on August 9, 2004
I'm with cell on moderating.
If some moderator is *heavily* cleaning out the newsfilter comments because it is starting to get too OT, I'm leaving. Yeah, sometimes the bad posts and trolls are annoying, but they are as much metafilter as the good posts are.
posted by jmgorman at 7:08 AM on August 9, 2004
If some moderator is *heavily* cleaning out the newsfilter comments because it is starting to get too OT, I'm leaving. Yeah, sometimes the bad posts and trolls are annoying, but they are as much metafilter as the good posts are.
posted by jmgorman at 7:08 AM on August 9, 2004
I know this has been mentioned before, but how about killing two birds with one stone? Pay a nickle to post a message in the blue, pay a dime to post one on the green. Matt will be richer than Dick Cheney at that rate.
posted by crunchland at 7:20 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by crunchland at 7:20 AM on August 9, 2004
For those of us not in the US$ zone, what's a nickel worth? Or a dime?
posted by dash_slot- at 7:25 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by dash_slot- at 7:25 AM on August 9, 2004
*Laughs* wow, erratic frog, with bile like that maybe you should go back to not posting very often
That wasn't even bile.
Did you see the *sigh* that chicken person posted? I mean, c'mon. What I said was bile? Where?
I don't particularly count a retort back to a wiseass as bile, but that's just me.
*Waves to ashbury* :)
posted by erratic frog at 7:34 AM on August 9, 2004
That wasn't even bile.
Did you see the *sigh* that chicken person posted? I mean, c'mon. What I said was bile? Where?
I don't particularly count a retort back to a wiseass as bile, but that's just me.
*Waves to ashbury* :)
posted by erratic frog at 7:34 AM on August 9, 2004
Hi amber -
a nickel is tuppence? : >
posted by amberglow at 7:28 AM PST on August 9
I guess that's 2cents, not 2pence? (ie, US or British)
Sorry to get derailed - am trying to work out what I would pay!
posted by dash_slot- at 7:41 AM on August 9, 2004
a nickel is tuppence? : >
posted by amberglow at 7:28 AM PST on August 9
I guess that's 2cents, not 2pence? (ie, US or British)
Sorry to get derailed - am trying to work out what I would pay!
posted by dash_slot- at 7:41 AM on August 9, 2004
A nickle is 5 cents, or a 20th of a dollar. A dime is 10 cents or a 10th of a dollar. And I don't know if the surcharge would apply to all posted messages or just frontpage posts.
Or we could charge by the word. Ethereal Bligh would be gone in no time.
And maybe people could build up a credit by giving replies on the green.
posted by crunchland at 7:43 AM on August 9, 2004
Or we could charge by the word. Ethereal Bligh would be gone in no time.
And maybe people could build up a credit by giving replies on the green.
posted by crunchland at 7:43 AM on August 9, 2004
You've had your quota there crunchie.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:38 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:38 AM on August 9, 2004
or how about the Amazon deal? you click to Amazon through MeFi, then Matt would get a commission off what was shipped. If we all did that enough, Matt should make a nice stipend.
posted by evening at 8:41 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by evening at 8:41 AM on August 9, 2004
I'd actually be loathe to pay a membership fee without having a bit more of an idea of what the site costs, and how much it generates in revenue. From what people have said, the site doesn't make much money, but before I start putting my money where my mouth is, I'd like to see numbers.
/imagines Matt surrounded by money laughing his head off as he types how the site doesn't make that much, and how he's pretty sick of it, and how he could switch the server off at any time.
I don't think that a paid membership would work, simply because the number of people who actually post is relatively small. I think you could make $10,000 ish dollars a year, but this isn't going to pay for much. (200 paying customers @ $5.00 a month)
I post here quite a lot, have chipped in the odd buck here & there, and would stand by the "more addictive than crack" assertion. I'm not sure that I'd pay a monthly membership though.
posted by seanyboy at 8:45 AM on August 9, 2004
/imagines Matt surrounded by money laughing his head off as he types how the site doesn't make that much, and how he's pretty sick of it, and how he could switch the server off at any time.
I don't think that a paid membership would work, simply because the number of people who actually post is relatively small. I think you could make $10,000 ish dollars a year, but this isn't going to pay for much. (200 paying customers @ $5.00 a month)
I post here quite a lot, have chipped in the odd buck here & there, and would stand by the "more addictive than crack" assertion. I'm not sure that I'd pay a monthly membership though.
posted by seanyboy at 8:45 AM on August 9, 2004
erratic frog, stavros 1) has contributed a tremendous amount to this site and 2) is right. This mitigates his slight snottiness to you. You, on the other hand, 1) have contributed nothing to this site except these few obnoxious comments and 2) are wrong. I suggest you take some time off for contemplation; if you keep on wildly insulting everyone who crosses your path, you're not going to be taken very seriously and may (if you're loquacious enough) wind up being an Official MeFi Punching Bag.
I know, I know, I'm just spouting tripe.
As for the money issue, like Quartermass, although I agree that charging makes sense, I'm afraid I'd wind up drifting away. I'm spoiled by all the free stuff on the web...
posted by languagehat at 8:47 AM on August 9, 2004
I know, I know, I'm just spouting tripe.
As for the money issue, like Quartermass, although I agree that charging makes sense, I'm afraid I'd wind up drifting away. I'm spoiled by all the free stuff on the web...
posted by languagehat at 8:47 AM on August 9, 2004
Dash Slot: A Dimes about a Bob in real money; A nickel is half that, so basically a Tanner.
posted by seanyboy at 8:48 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by seanyboy at 8:48 AM on August 9, 2004
erratic frog: I have it on unimpeachable authority that ~3,000 members refresh their cookies (i.e., log in, either explicitly or automatically) at least once per year – if the other ~14,000 members are still visiting the site without ever logging in it seems unlikely that they'd be willing to pay to do so.
Using your 20% figure would give us 600 paying customers. I don't think five bucks a month would cover Matt's salary let alone pay for hosting, more servers, etc. Ten dollars plus advertising revenue might do it, though it would be one hell of a leap of faith on Matt's part to hope it would be sustainable.
posted by timeistight at 8:59 AM on August 9, 2004
Using your 20% figure would give us 600 paying customers. I don't think five bucks a month would cover Matt's salary let alone pay for hosting, more servers, etc. Ten dollars plus advertising revenue might do it, though it would be one hell of a leap of faith on Matt's part to hope it would be sustainable.
posted by timeistight at 8:59 AM on August 9, 2004
"I'd actually be loathe to pay a membership fee without having a bit more of an idea of what the site costs, and how much it generates in revenue."
Crazy talk. Crazy talk, I say.
When you join a gym, do you require they open their books? When you rent a movie from Blockbuster do you discuss the gross of the store with the manager?
Franky, this is none of your business.
posted by cedar at 9:01 AM on August 9, 2004
Crazy talk. Crazy talk, I say.
When you join a gym, do you require they open their books? When you rent a movie from Blockbuster do you discuss the gross of the store with the manager?
Franky, this is none of your business.
posted by cedar at 9:01 AM on August 9, 2004
Crazy talk. Crazy talk, I say.
Normally, I'd agree that this was crazy talk, but we're in a situation here where people want to pay money because they want to see the site continue, and they feel they have a personal relationship with both it and the founder. In order that people don't feel betrayed by this relationship, I think that an extra amount of transparancy is needed.
Plus - That whole kuro5hin thing was a bit of an object lesson.
I agree that it's none of my business, but that's not how I feel, you know, in my heart.
posted by seanyboy at 9:08 AM on August 9, 2004
Normally, I'd agree that this was crazy talk, but we're in a situation here where people want to pay money because they want to see the site continue, and they feel they have a personal relationship with both it and the founder. In order that people don't feel betrayed by this relationship, I think that an extra amount of transparancy is needed.
Plus - That whole kuro5hin thing was a bit of an object lesson.
I agree that it's none of my business, but that's not how I feel, you know, in my heart.
posted by seanyboy at 9:08 AM on August 9, 2004
seanyboy: Put that way I can understand your desire for transparency. Considering his history it's likely that user #1 would agree with you. I don't, but that's neither here nor there.
posted by cedar at 9:15 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by cedar at 9:15 AM on August 9, 2004
I knew those statistics I did before had a purpose!
61.2% of registered users have never commented or posted. Of the 38.8% who have posted, 45.1% have posted less than 10 comments, 42.2% have posted between 10 and 99 comments, and 12.7% have made more than 100 comments.
So yeah, I would infer from those numbers to say that you would probably be relying on a smaller percentage that 12.7% that make up the MetaFilter Community, plus a good number of people who are "dying" to get in. Thus, I woudl say that the 10k a year on memberships (from the $5 a head number) sounds accurate, though that depends on how many new users sign up for it.
posted by Quartermass at 9:26 AM on August 9, 2004
61.2% of registered users have never commented or posted. Of the 38.8% who have posted, 45.1% have posted less than 10 comments, 42.2% have posted between 10 and 99 comments, and 12.7% have made more than 100 comments.
So yeah, I would infer from those numbers to say that you would probably be relying on a smaller percentage that 12.7% that make up the MetaFilter Community, plus a good number of people who are "dying" to get in. Thus, I woudl say that the 10k a year on memberships (from the $5 a head number) sounds accurate, though that depends on how many new users sign up for it.
posted by Quartermass at 9:26 AM on August 9, 2004
Isn't there enough transparency in the site itself? If you like the way things are going you keep paying; if not, you stop. What difference does it make whether Matt's living on food stamps or buying a Lear jet?
I don't know too much about kuro5hin but wasn't it set up as a non-profit? If that's the case, there should be a board who could hire a new admin if they don't like the job Rusty's doing. I don't think the situations are comparable.
posted by timeistight at 9:29 AM on August 9, 2004
I don't know too much about kuro5hin but wasn't it set up as a non-profit? If that's the case, there should be a board who could hire a new admin if they don't like the job Rusty's doing. I don't think the situations are comparable.
posted by timeistight at 9:29 AM on August 9, 2004
seanyboy - I'm not going to open my books because I'm not running a non-profit here. k5 did it, because Rusty wants to create a totally transparent, non-profit institution.
When I talked of money and my time, it really is for "greedy" means. I'd be happy to devote 8-12 full hours a day to this when it can pay me a full time salary, and that salary doesn't have much to do with the cost of running the site -- it's simple economics that if XYZ corp pays me $X to work, and MeFi pays much less, I'd love to get $X or even $2X to run MeFi.
timeistight is wrong about the 3,000 number, that's actually the amount of members that have hit the site in the past 24 hours. If you extend it to the last 7 days or 30 days, it goes up a tad to around a thousand more, so it's safe to say about 3k users are active and showing up here everyday, with several times that coming back everyday as non-members.
My guess has always been that if I unloaded a bunch of new features as a "pro account" for a few bucks a month, I'd probably only gather maybe 500 users, tops from the daily amount, and that's still slightly optomistic.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:32 AM on August 9, 2004
When I talked of money and my time, it really is for "greedy" means. I'd be happy to devote 8-12 full hours a day to this when it can pay me a full time salary, and that salary doesn't have much to do with the cost of running the site -- it's simple economics that if XYZ corp pays me $X to work, and MeFi pays much less, I'd love to get $X or even $2X to run MeFi.
timeistight is wrong about the 3,000 number, that's actually the amount of members that have hit the site in the past 24 hours. If you extend it to the last 7 days or 30 days, it goes up a tad to around a thousand more, so it's safe to say about 3k users are active and showing up here everyday, with several times that coming back everyday as non-members.
My guess has always been that if I unloaded a bunch of new features as a "pro account" for a few bucks a month, I'd probably only gather maybe 500 users, tops from the daily amount, and that's still slightly optomistic.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 9:32 AM on August 9, 2004
*Oh my God. My head.*
Timeistight:
1.) I am pretty sure Matt can speak for himself. I mean, we have all witnessed it, have we not? Wait, are you Matt? Are you Matt in disguise? Oh...nevermind, then.
2.) ~3,000 members refresh their cookies (i.e., log in, either explicitly or automatically) at least once per year – if the other ~14,000 members are still visiting the site without ever logging in it seems unlikely that they'd be willing to pay to do so.
How do you know? Did you ask them all? If we had this conversation 2 weeks ago, I would not have been here to state my opinion, so I would be one of the thousands who YOU would not know about. I, as one of those thousands, would pay. However, you would not know that because you would not have counted me in your little list of "cookie refreshers" so your info - impeachable or not, is irrelevant.
As to languagehat:
Punch away then. Just because stavroschicken has posted more and commented more does not make he/she more right or more wrong.
I don't think that either of us really knows enough to BE right or wrong, but we can have our opinions. I have mine, he/she has his/hers. Right?
All:
Look, I was just answering a question. "what would you want for a "membership?""
To be a member. It's that simple.
Hashing and rehashing won't change that.
Oh, and if you decide to go away because you're spoiled on free stuff, then go. So be it. That's no one's choice but yours.
However, I will stay, non-(normally) commenting and all because it's worth it to me to be able to comment when I like.
So, all in all, no offense intended, but I will not sit here like DUH when someone thinks it's a good idea to *sigh* at me and I won't just back down because someone says I might become the official punching bag for sharing my opinion.
Sorry to get anyone in a huff, but I still think that a paid membership would be the way to go.
:)
posted by erratic frog at 9:40 AM on August 9, 2004
Timeistight:
1.) I am pretty sure Matt can speak for himself. I mean, we have all witnessed it, have we not? Wait, are you Matt? Are you Matt in disguise? Oh...nevermind, then.
2.) ~3,000 members refresh their cookies (i.e., log in, either explicitly or automatically) at least once per year – if the other ~14,000 members are still visiting the site without ever logging in it seems unlikely that they'd be willing to pay to do so.
How do you know? Did you ask them all? If we had this conversation 2 weeks ago, I would not have been here to state my opinion, so I would be one of the thousands who YOU would not know about. I, as one of those thousands, would pay. However, you would not know that because you would not have counted me in your little list of "cookie refreshers" so your info - impeachable or not, is irrelevant.
As to languagehat:
Punch away then. Just because stavroschicken has posted more and commented more does not make he/she more right or more wrong.
I don't think that either of us really knows enough to BE right or wrong, but we can have our opinions. I have mine, he/she has his/hers. Right?
All:
Look, I was just answering a question. "what would you want for a "membership?""
To be a member. It's that simple.
Hashing and rehashing won't change that.
Oh, and if you decide to go away because you're spoiled on free stuff, then go. So be it. That's no one's choice but yours.
However, I will stay, non-(normally) commenting and all because it's worth it to me to be able to comment when I like.
So, all in all, no offense intended, but I will not sit here like DUH when someone thinks it's a good idea to *sigh* at me and I won't just back down because someone says I might become the official punching bag for sharing my opinion.
Sorry to get anyone in a huff, but I still think that a paid membership would be the way to go.
:)
posted by erratic frog at 9:40 AM on August 9, 2004
My guess has always been that if I unloaded a bunch of new features as a "pro account" for a few bucks a month, I'd probably only gather maybe 500 users, tops from the daily amount, and that's still slightly optomistic.
I wish I'd have waited a few more seconds before posting so I could read this, too.
So Matt, do you think, from your experience, that you could, essentially, make a good living from this site if even 1/3 of the *registered* (not daily hits/reloads) user base agreed to pay?
Extra features or not, if people just said "Hey! MeFi's worth our time to come here all the time like we do, therefore Matt's worth our money!" and paid, would it be enough?
I guess that's all I am really saying. If the people who really like to talk put their money where their mouths are, would it be sufficient? Or not?
That's it. From this day forward, you will get $5.00 a month from me. Pinky-swear.
:)
posted by erratic frog at 9:46 AM on August 9, 2004
I wish I'd have waited a few more seconds before posting so I could read this, too.
So Matt, do you think, from your experience, that you could, essentially, make a good living from this site if even 1/3 of the *registered* (not daily hits/reloads) user base agreed to pay?
Extra features or not, if people just said "Hey! MeFi's worth our time to come here all the time like we do, therefore Matt's worth our money!" and paid, would it be enough?
I guess that's all I am really saying. If the people who really like to talk put their money where their mouths are, would it be sufficient? Or not?
That's it. From this day forward, you will get $5.00 a month from me. Pinky-swear.
:)
posted by erratic frog at 9:46 AM on August 9, 2004
Aside from other notable suggestions such as the mefi-home surgery kit, or the instant snark filtertm argument disassembler, my idea is as follows:
Have a 'Mefi Recommends' section where local mefi celebs and others recommend their favorite books, products, etc. with all products linked and clicking through to a amazon or similar pay-for-click vendor.
I know for example that some of the reading rec's I've stumbled across here have been excellent; why not branch that out into other consumer categories? It would be an honest way for current users to add to a revenue generator through their product rec's.
posted by jazzkat11 at 9:51 AM on August 9, 2004
Have a 'Mefi Recommends' section where local mefi celebs and others recommend their favorite books, products, etc. with all products linked and clicking through to a amazon or similar pay-for-click vendor.
I know for example that some of the reading rec's I've stumbled across here have been excellent; why not branch that out into other consumer categories? It would be an honest way for current users to add to a revenue generator through their product rec's.
posted by jazzkat11 at 9:51 AM on August 9, 2004
Ooh! Excellent suggestion, jazzkat! :)
posted by erratic frog at 9:55 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by erratic frog at 9:55 AM on August 9, 2004
Ha! jazzkat11, I've had a system 90% complete for two years now, in fact it's almost done when I revisited the code the other day.
My plan was to let folks recommend books, music, etc (anything at amazon) here, with a full review and comments, with "buy now" features. I was going to send all the proceeds to the EFF, but I suppose it could be a simple profit dealie.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:05 AM on August 9, 2004
My plan was to let folks recommend books, music, etc (anything at amazon) here, with a full review and comments, with "buy now" features. I was going to send all the proceeds to the EFF, but I suppose it could be a simple profit dealie.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:05 AM on August 9, 2004
A day, a year: picky, picky, picky. Anyway, you and I agree on the paid membership, erratic frog. I also like the "Mefi Recommends" idea.
posted by timeistight at 10:27 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by timeistight at 10:27 AM on August 9, 2004
Mat - you can justify the proceeds of a set of Amazon click-throughs going to yer own / this community's survival, no probs. Any surplus from the annual server upgrade budget, well EFF or whoever can have the leftovers. I think this will be an excellent feature. I'll let you know what I think of this obscure vintage Beach Boys DVD I hold in my sweaty mitts (I didn't go out with the intention of buying it, honest!)
Seanyboy - most amusing to see the pre-decimal colloquialisms! Live mid-market rates as of 2004.08.09, 17:35:44 GMT.
0.10 USD / a dime / 10 cents = 0.0543443 GBP / 5p / a shilling / a bob. Absolutely spot-on.
Memebership at £25 p.a. is what I would be comfortable with; at todays rates, that's $46.
When you stopover in London en route to Rekjavik Mat, I'll hit you wiv me subs.
posted by dash_slot- at 10:45 AM on August 9, 2004
Seanyboy - most amusing to see the pre-decimal colloquialisms! Live mid-market rates as of 2004.08.09, 17:35:44 GMT.
0.10 USD / a dime / 10 cents = 0.0543443 GBP / 5p / a shilling / a bob. Absolutely spot-on.
Memebership at £25 p.a. is what I would be comfortable with; at todays rates, that's $46.
When you stopover in London en route to Rekjavik Mat, I'll hit you wiv me subs.
posted by dash_slot- at 10:45 AM on August 9, 2004
Metafilter: 16,000 odd whatever members.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:01 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:01 AM on August 9, 2004
hey, that's what I said, jazzkat11! ok, s/he said it better. [grumble] never get any attention [grumble]
posted by evening at 11:15 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by evening at 11:15 AM on August 9, 2004
My guess has always been that if I unloaded a bunch of new features as a "pro account" for a few bucks a month, I'd probably only gather maybe 500 users, tops from the daily amount, and that's still slightly optomistic.
But not if people who don't already have a membership have to purchase a MefiPro account in order to sign up. You'd get 500 from the existing userbase, and probably a couple thousand people who would purchase it just to get membership, regardless of whether or not they want the pro features. You could probably estimate the number of people who want in from the number of distinct non-logged-in IPs that hit the site more than a few times a day.
posted by PrinceValium at 11:25 AM on August 9, 2004
But not if people who don't already have a membership have to purchase a MefiPro account in order to sign up. You'd get 500 from the existing userbase, and probably a couple thousand people who would purchase it just to get membership, regardless of whether or not they want the pro features. You could probably estimate the number of people who want in from the number of distinct non-logged-in IPs that hit the site more than a few times a day.
posted by PrinceValium at 11:25 AM on August 9, 2004
Yeah! What Prince Valium said!
posted by erratic frog at 11:28 AM on August 9, 2004
posted by erratic frog at 11:28 AM on August 9, 2004
Also, at 17,000 members, @ 5.00 a month, well, you do the math (because I am bad at math and don't want to), that's a hell of a lot of money! Sure you'll lose some members I guess, but even *only* 3000 members x 5.00 per month equals a helluva lot
Mmmmkay. This is totally naive cocktail-napkin thinking. Only a fraction of those 17K are active at all, Matt says around 4K. And only a tiny fraction of those would survive the switch to a monthly fee. I think 500, or 1/8 is optimistic, as Matt says.
Lest you cite the huge tsunami of lurkers just dying to pay Matt for the privelege to join, I remind you that only a tiny fraction of those will actually pay up when push comes to shove. Probably a lower percentage than the existing users, who have something to lose.
I think we'd be lucky to score a thousand paying members a month total. Let's say two-thousand, just to be generous. At $5 per month each, that's a max of $10K per month *gross*, perhaps not a terrible living for Matt, after taxes and operating expenses, but his toilet roll will still be spooled with toilet paper, not Benjamins, my friend.
And then... DOH! We'd only have 2K members (half the current number), we will have lost a lot of the old folk, and a bunch of new folk will have just arrived with a big fat sense of entitlement... and God only knows if the site that remains will still be worth paying for.
Think realistically.
posted by scarabic at 11:44 AM on August 9, 2004
Mmmmkay. This is totally naive cocktail-napkin thinking. Only a fraction of those 17K are active at all, Matt says around 4K. And only a tiny fraction of those would survive the switch to a monthly fee. I think 500, or 1/8 is optimistic, as Matt says.
Lest you cite the huge tsunami of lurkers just dying to pay Matt for the privelege to join, I remind you that only a tiny fraction of those will actually pay up when push comes to shove. Probably a lower percentage than the existing users, who have something to lose.
I think we'd be lucky to score a thousand paying members a month total. Let's say two-thousand, just to be generous. At $5 per month each, that's a max of $10K per month *gross*, perhaps not a terrible living for Matt, after taxes and operating expenses, but his toilet roll will still be spooled with toilet paper, not Benjamins, my friend.
And then... DOH! We'd only have 2K members (half the current number), we will have lost a lot of the old folk, and a bunch of new folk will have just arrived with a big fat sense of entitlement... and God only knows if the site that remains will still be worth paying for.
Think realistically.
posted by scarabic at 11:44 AM on August 9, 2004
Scarabic says to me: You're wrong!
I say back: No, you're wrong.
posted by erratic frog at 11:49 AM on August 9, 2004
I say back: No, you're wrong.
posted by erratic frog at 11:49 AM on August 9, 2004
Yeah, what scarabic said.
And also, you know, no one ever went broke underestimating how much money they could make from the Internet. If you catch my drift.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:53 AM on August 9, 2004
And also, you know, no one ever went broke underestimating how much money they could make from the Internet. If you catch my drift.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:53 AM on August 9, 2004
You're skipping over the part where I told you why you were wrong.
posted by scarabic at 12:00 PM on August 9, 2004
posted by scarabic at 12:00 PM on August 9, 2004
I love this site and all, but $5/month I could not afford. That's a week's worth of food for the poor college students of the universe.
posted by jmd82 at 12:24 PM on August 9, 2004
posted by jmd82 at 12:24 PM on August 9, 2004
well, it would cut down on some of the noise, defer the casual mefite to other free sites, and leave only the hardcore meficrack addicts.
But whomever said back there that Matt should sell mefi and make something new ... there is something to be said for Matt dedicating his life to this old warhorse as opposed to finding himself a new pony.
And also, does metafilter really, truly need 8 to 12 hours a day to maintain it? I can't imagine.
posted by crunchland at 12:52 PM on August 9, 2004
But whomever said back there that Matt should sell mefi and make something new ... there is something to be said for Matt dedicating his life to this old warhorse as opposed to finding himself a new pony.
And also, does metafilter really, truly need 8 to 12 hours a day to maintain it? I can't imagine.
posted by crunchland at 12:52 PM on August 9, 2004
I think pay-for would likely kill this place. Or, rather, transform it into something other than what it is, the result of which would also almost entirely turn over the userbase. Which is fine, if Matt won't miss those of us that would doddle off into the sunset.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:08 PM on August 9, 2004
posted by five fresh fish at 1:08 PM on August 9, 2004
I love watching threads mutate as the facts get completely lost the longer threads go.
If and I say if I were to add pro features for some price, the site would remain as it is for everyone else. It wouldn't "go pay only" nor would it "cut members off" that didn't pay in any way, shape, or form. Just extra features for a subset of users willing to pay for the extra cycles, no major changes for everyone else.
The site would not mutate. There would be no drastic changes. There would be no reason for someone viewing the site today as a member not to continue doing so, exactly as it was before.
Repeat after me: we are not discussing how to make the site pay-only.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:17 PM on August 9, 2004
If and I say if I were to add pro features for some price, the site would remain as it is for everyone else. It wouldn't "go pay only" nor would it "cut members off" that didn't pay in any way, shape, or form. Just extra features for a subset of users willing to pay for the extra cycles, no major changes for everyone else.
The site would not mutate. There would be no drastic changes. There would be no reason for someone viewing the site today as a member not to continue doing so, exactly as it was before.
Repeat after me: we are not discussing how to make the site pay-only.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 1:17 PM on August 9, 2004
I'd probably pay a smallish amount of money (real smallish) to have no political posts on the front page.
posted by angry modem at 1:18 PM on August 9, 2004
posted by angry modem at 1:18 PM on August 9, 2004
we are not discussing how to make the site pay-only.
Duly repeated. Done with this thread. Or: I get it.
posted by erratic frog at 1:27 PM on August 9, 2004
Duly repeated. Done with this thread. Or: I get it.
posted by erratic frog at 1:27 PM on August 9, 2004
I'd hate to see it go subscription, and turning MeFi into a seriously for-profit site would start to require marketing and other PITA stuff. Members and non- have contributed for operating costs and server upgrade. Adding more Amazon referrals would nicely supplement current revenue, and maybe finance better uptime.
I'd like to see new users come from MoFi, or some sort of contest where wannabees post a sample of the sort of links/comments they have to offer.Some Many of us would not make the cut. Or, maybe somebody could code a MeFi Lottery - buy a chance to win one of X memberships per day - $1/ticket, 7 for $5.00.
Matt, would you really be content to run the site as your full-time gig? I'd be surprised.
posted by theora55 at 1:30 PM on August 9, 2004
I'd like to see new users come from MoFi, or some sort of contest where wannabees post a sample of the sort of links/comments they have to offer.
Matt, would you really be content to run the site as your full-time gig? I'd be surprised.
posted by theora55 at 1:30 PM on August 9, 2004
I paid a paltry sum ($5, I think) to join MeFi two years ago. I don't feel as though I arrived with a big fat sense of entitlement. (That said, if it had cost $60 to join then, I'm not sure I would have. But if I had and people were mean to me for expressing an unpopular viewpoint or just for being new, I would have been annoyed.)
Sounds like Matt is envisioning something different than salon.com. There, you pay to avoid the advertising, but can also view the site as before if you endure a 2 minute ad in lieu of signing in as a paid subscriber. Matt says above that the site would be the same for people who didn't pay for the pro features, so I guess that's out, which is probably good.
I like the MeRe idea.
I wonder whether we could also improve/maintain the quality of the site by voting on a best post of the day, to encourage more posting of non-news posts. That person could enter a raffle (or something) with other winners to get a free month's subscribership, so we'd also be encouraging the good posters to stick around with pro access.
posted by onlyconnect at 2:05 PM on August 9, 2004
Sounds like Matt is envisioning something different than salon.com. There, you pay to avoid the advertising, but can also view the site as before if you endure a 2 minute ad in lieu of signing in as a paid subscriber. Matt says above that the site would be the same for people who didn't pay for the pro features, so I guess that's out, which is probably good.
I like the MeRe idea.
I wonder whether we could also improve/maintain the quality of the site by voting on a best post of the day, to encourage more posting of non-news posts. That person could enter a raffle (or something) with other winners to get a free month's subscribership, so we'd also be encouraging the good posters to stick around with pro access.
posted by onlyconnect at 2:05 PM on August 9, 2004
I'd like to plonk myself down on a pedant's chair in this thread and put the kuro5hin story right a bit, just because it's a useful point of reference. At the start of it all, rusty (k5's owner) said -- much like Matt, in a way -- that k5 had one major expense, and it was him:
And this is where things go awry. Rusty never actually set up his promised non-profit -- he just said he was going to do it, and he said it so many times that some people outside k5 even seem to believe it happened. He talked and talked for years, changed his board a few times, had a few meetings, but to this day very little has been done. Meanwhile, rusty's got about $70,000 that has been spent on goodness-knows-what (the joke is that it was a yacht, along with copious amounts of monocle polish), and recently decided to shut down new users for about three months, just because some photoshopped picture upset him. The community, meanwhile, has absolutely no way to hold him accountable. Nowadays he spends little time on kuro5hin, preferring to spend it earning yet more money from k5's scoop engine by working with Armstrong Zuniga on sites like Daily Kos, which earns thousands per month in advertising revenue -- it is, after all, difficult to devote your time to one project.
In case you're wondering, this is mostly an argument against user subscriptions and donations, and in favour of ads, Amazon referrals and the like -- there is simply less that can go wrong, less obligation created. Turning communities into financial transactions has never worked out well, in my experience. This is also not intended to impugn Matt's honesty or anything, just to give a more accurate view of a prior case study.
posted by reklaw at 2:06 PM on August 9, 2004
"So what, ultimately, does it all cost? With the massive elimination of expenses, to the point where this whole circus can get by comfortably on simply the cost of a single full time employee, our annual budget works out to about $70,000. That includes my salary, corporate and payroll taxes, and all miscellaneous expenses, such as accounting, bookkeeping, legal costs, and the occasional SCSI hard drive."Matt and rusty's situations are similar, in that they both had people queuing up to do all the work for them, but both preferred to ask for money so that they could quit their jobs and do it themselves. Kuro5hin is actually hosted for free, by voxel.net, in exchange for a small sponsor ad! Rusty could run the thing for free, and it has since survived for months at a time with a team of volunteer editors, in spite of his neglect of it. He wanted that $70,000 for himself, with perhaps a few thousand (at the most, surely) going on incidental expenses. He sold the membership on this dream of non-profit media, of not wanting to sell them out to advertisers (which he has since done with Google Adsense, but anyway). Unbelievably, trustingly, and somewhat touchingly, the membership raised the money.
And this is where things go awry. Rusty never actually set up his promised non-profit -- he just said he was going to do it, and he said it so many times that some people outside k5 even seem to believe it happened. He talked and talked for years, changed his board a few times, had a few meetings, but to this day very little has been done. Meanwhile, rusty's got about $70,000 that has been spent on goodness-knows-what (the joke is that it was a yacht, along with copious amounts of monocle polish), and recently decided to shut down new users for about three months, just because some photoshopped picture upset him. The community, meanwhile, has absolutely no way to hold him accountable. Nowadays he spends little time on kuro5hin, preferring to spend it earning yet more money from k5's scoop engine by working with Armstrong Zuniga on sites like Daily Kos, which earns thousands per month in advertising revenue -- it is, after all, difficult to devote your time to one project.
In case you're wondering, this is mostly an argument against user subscriptions and donations, and in favour of ads, Amazon referrals and the like -- there is simply less that can go wrong, less obligation created. Turning communities into financial transactions has never worked out well, in my experience. This is also not intended to impugn Matt's honesty or anything, just to give a more accurate view of a prior case study.
posted by reklaw at 2:06 PM on August 9, 2004
I think the idea of adding a pay option for added features would likely be fine. Anyone who doesn't want killfiles, mail addys, well, just don't sign up for it.
I'd pay $50 per year to have additional features. I can't see paying more than that, however. Then I can killfile ALL OF YOU and Metafilter will look pretty & pristine all the time. So minimalist.
The MeFi recommends is a good idea as well for added income.
I have to say though, I think that advertising will ultimately be the only way out in terms of a liveable income. I know it's not popular, and the l33t mefiers have ad blockers galore, but if you want deep pockets, those are to be found in marketing departments, not with individual members.
posted by Salmonberry at 2:21 PM on August 9, 2004
I'd pay $50 per year to have additional features. I can't see paying more than that, however. Then I can killfile ALL OF YOU and Metafilter will look pretty & pristine all the time. So minimalist.
The MeFi recommends is a good idea as well for added income.
I have to say though, I think that advertising will ultimately be the only way out in terms of a liveable income. I know it's not popular, and the l33t mefiers have ad blockers galore, but if you want deep pockets, those are to be found in marketing departments, not with individual members.
posted by Salmonberry at 2:21 PM on August 9, 2004
This is also not intended to impugn Matt's honesty or anything, just to give a more accurate view of a prior case study.
I just want to iterate, these are what-if scenarios that I'm answering here. I didn't start this thread, and I'm not 100% serious about Making Money Now! on the site, but since the thread started I thought I could get some answers to obvious questions like what people feel is worth paying for here.
But it's not likely I'll institute these changes, or depend on the site as my sole source of income anytime soon.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:26 PM on August 9, 2004
I just want to iterate, these are what-if scenarios that I'm answering here. I didn't start this thread, and I'm not 100% serious about Making Money Now! on the site, but since the thread started I thought I could get some answers to obvious questions like what people feel is worth paying for here.
But it's not likely I'll institute these changes, or depend on the site as my sole source of income anytime soon.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:26 PM on August 9, 2004
How many of *you* have actually contributed to this site monetarily? How many of you speak of your willingness to give without expectations but have yet to actually do so?
Instead of yelling into the ether, put your money where your mouth is.
In fact, let me help you help Matt. From the Metafilter | Donation thanks page
Donate via Amazon's Honor System: easiest, can one-click
money, but fees are higher and I see less money from your donation.
Donate via PayPal: requires a registration with paypal, but easy for me to take in.
posted by geekyguy at 2:31 PM on August 9, 2004
Instead of yelling into the ether, put your money where your mouth is.
In fact, let me help you help Matt. From the Metafilter | Donation thanks page
Donate via Amazon's Honor System: easiest, can one-click
money, but fees are higher and I see less money from your donation.
Donate via PayPal: requires a registration with paypal, but easy for me to take in.
posted by geekyguy at 2:31 PM on August 9, 2004
Repeat after me: we are...discussing how to make the site pay-only.
Outrage!
posted by Quartermass at 2:38 PM on August 9, 2004
Outrage!
posted by Quartermass at 2:38 PM on August 9, 2004
I didn't start this thread, and I'm not 100% serious about Making Money Now! on the site, but since the thread started I thought I could get some answers to obvious questions like what people feel is worth paying for here.
Well, that's my point... I just don't think asking users to pay for stuff is a good way to go about it. The 'mefi recommends' thing is the best idea in this thread by far, and ads could also bring in some extra money. Neither of these things requires asking mefi members to reach into their pockets and give you their money as a payment for a service, and that's what I think is a bad idea.
posted by reklaw at 2:38 PM on August 9, 2004
Well, that's my point... I just don't think asking users to pay for stuff is a good way to go about it. The 'mefi recommends' thing is the best idea in this thread by far, and ads could also bring in some extra money. Neither of these things requires asking mefi members to reach into their pockets and give you their money as a payment for a service, and that's what I think is a bad idea.
posted by reklaw at 2:38 PM on August 9, 2004
I LOVE the MeRe idea. I'd totally use it.
I wouldn't pay for ad removal. That's what my custom .css file is for.
I would pay for more interesting search/data-mining/navigation things. Mind you, I don't know what any of these things would necessarily be, but there's an enormous community here who are contributing reams of data.
(I've donated and bought ads, btw. Matt, if you build it, I'll come.)
posted by mkultra at 2:41 PM on August 9, 2004
I wouldn't pay for ad removal. That's what my custom .css file is for.
I would pay for more interesting search/data-mining/navigation things. Mind you, I don't know what any of these things would necessarily be, but there's an enormous community here who are contributing reams of data.
(I've donated and bought ads, btw. Matt, if you build it, I'll come.)
posted by mkultra at 2:41 PM on August 9, 2004
Here's an early mockup of the MeFi Recommends stuff.
I'm definitely taking the little comment bubble graphic out, and adding in the first 30 words of reviews below the title of the thing. I have the whole review submission stuff done, I just need to finish the display and error handling of amazon web service requests.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:57 PM on August 9, 2004
I'm definitely taking the little comment bubble graphic out, and adding in the first 30 words of reviews below the title of the thing. I have the whole review submission stuff done, I just need to finish the display and error handling of amazon web service requests.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 2:57 PM on August 9, 2004
I second (third)? mandatory post categorization for those who post an FPP: Politics, culture, tech/blogging/science, literature, music, art, and flash. With zero tolerance for posts that are intentionally put in the wrong category. Pro users would get to custom-display as they wish.
posted by PrinceValium at 3:59 PM on August 9, 2004
posted by PrinceValium at 3:59 PM on August 9, 2004
Well, characteristically, stav did jump on and condescend to the frog, on her first ever MeTa comment.
I'm supposed to check someone's posting history before I tell them they're talking shit, now? Get it straight, here -- newbies should be treated the same as the rest of us, or they should have their widdle hands held? Which is it?
Erratic Frog can feel free to read some Metatalk history and grow a skin. Or alternately, keep posting errant nonsense, and dig itself a deeper hole.
timeistight is wrong about the 3,000 number, that's actually the amount of members that have hit the site in the past 24 hours.
As was I, apparently, but my point stands. Interestingly, maybe, I don't recall Matt ever saying before in such plain words "3000 people a day".
Have a 'Mefi Recommends' section where local mefi celebs and others recommend their favorite books, products, etc. with all products linked and clicking through to a amazon or similar pay-for-click vendor.
Fuck Amazon. And fuck monetarizing this place further. If it's for Matt to keep the site going, well, OK. If it's to make fucking Amazon yet even more cash from the weblogging community, I couldn't be more against that particular idea. How further opposed could you get to the communitarian, barn-raising spirit of Ask Mefi, I ask you? Crikey -- that'd be the first coffin-nail, if I ever saw one.
So saith "stavroschicken", for what little it's worth.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:05 PM on August 9, 2004
I'm supposed to check someone's posting history before I tell them they're talking shit, now? Get it straight, here -- newbies should be treated the same as the rest of us, or they should have their widdle hands held? Which is it?
Erratic Frog can feel free to read some Metatalk history and grow a skin. Or alternately, keep posting errant nonsense, and dig itself a deeper hole.
timeistight is wrong about the 3,000 number, that's actually the amount of members that have hit the site in the past 24 hours.
As was I, apparently, but my point stands. Interestingly, maybe, I don't recall Matt ever saying before in such plain words "3000 people a day".
Have a 'Mefi Recommends' section where local mefi celebs and others recommend their favorite books, products, etc. with all products linked and clicking through to a amazon or similar pay-for-click vendor.
Fuck Amazon. And fuck monetarizing this place further. If it's for Matt to keep the site going, well, OK. If it's to make fucking Amazon yet even more cash from the weblogging community, I couldn't be more against that particular idea. How further opposed could you get to the communitarian, barn-raising spirit of Ask Mefi, I ask you? Crikey -- that'd be the first coffin-nail, if I ever saw one.
So saith "stavroschicken", for what little it's worth.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:05 PM on August 9, 2004
Can I just clarify that I don't much care for the 'recommends' idea? In case my flip-top head and foul language obscured the point. Heh.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:10 PM on August 9, 2004
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:10 PM on August 9, 2004
Erratic Frog can feel free to read some Metatalk history and grow a skin. Or alternately, keep posting errant nonsense, and dig itself a deeper hole.
Mr. Chicken, there's only one person posting errant nonsense in this thread. That person is located behind your keyboard.
posted by reklaw at 4:35 PM on August 9, 2004
Mr. Chicken, there's only one person posting errant nonsense in this thread. That person is located behind your keyboard.
posted by reklaw at 4:35 PM on August 9, 2004
With zero tolerance for posts that are intentionally put in the wrong category.
Impossible in practice. What's the "right" category, pray tell? You'd only imagine this were feasible if you've never tried to categorize anything, much less free-form posts. I think that categories are an excellent idea, but for "screen out the shit I don't want" functionality, I think we've got to have a "filter out PostRoad" option (or any user - that's just the first example that comes to my mind). Is this the same as "killfiles?" I don't really understand that term.
they should have their widdle hands held?
No, they need their "widdow hanes hoded." I'm being facetious, of course. I think stupid newbies need smacking down sooner and harder than other stupid people. I quote: "...but people like to discuss the news."
Call the WHAM!-bulance, indeed.
/errant nonsense
Quartermass made me laugh :)
posted by scarabic at 4:57 PM on August 9, 2004
Impossible in practice. What's the "right" category, pray tell? You'd only imagine this were feasible if you've never tried to categorize anything, much less free-form posts. I think that categories are an excellent idea, but for "screen out the shit I don't want" functionality, I think we've got to have a "filter out PostRoad" option (or any user - that's just the first example that comes to my mind). Is this the same as "killfiles?" I don't really understand that term.
they should have their widdle hands held?
No, they need their "widdow hanes hoded." I'm being facetious, of course. I think stupid newbies need smacking down sooner and harder than other stupid people. I quote: "...but people like to discuss the news."
Call the WHAM!-bulance, indeed.
/errant nonsense
Quartermass made me laugh :)
posted by scarabic at 4:57 PM on August 9, 2004
I belong to a website (and the one owner is a member here, as are other members of the site) that is a pay discussion site. It started as an open one but, as it grew and grew it became impossible to stay completely open due to costs.
The site has not lost many members due to it being a pay site. The level of discussion has not gone down, in fact there are better and more indepth threads since it went to a pay site.
The site does offer scholarships to members by either the benevolence of the owners or by other subscribers picking up the costs in whole or part.
That is just one pay site I belong to. There is another one that you can pay a small fee for, or get coupons if you submit articles for and they are choosen as the best by a large team of volunteer reviewers. I know the owner of this site reads here but, I don't know if he has a membership.
It can be done, well, if the userbase cooperates.
(note: I'm not naming the sites but, will if Matt wants them in email.)
posted by SuzySmith at 5:44 PM on August 9, 2004
The site has not lost many members due to it being a pay site. The level of discussion has not gone down, in fact there are better and more indepth threads since it went to a pay site.
The site does offer scholarships to members by either the benevolence of the owners or by other subscribers picking up the costs in whole or part.
That is just one pay site I belong to. There is another one that you can pay a small fee for, or get coupons if you submit articles for and they are choosen as the best by a large team of volunteer reviewers. I know the owner of this site reads here but, I don't know if he has a membership.
It can be done, well, if the userbase cooperates.
(note: I'm not naming the sites but, will if Matt wants them in email.)
posted by SuzySmith at 5:44 PM on August 9, 2004
The keyword was "intentionally," scarabic: picture someone using the "tech" category because he wants people who have opted out of the news/politics section to read his post about the latest Krugman op-ed.
and I'll whisper the following since I know it's a sensitive topic: any upgrade to Mefi that allows for an increased userbase and more discussion areas - especially a craigslist-type swap shop forum - simply has to allow for more moderators, or else the place absolutely will go to pieces. Matt should make all the major decisions, but we need a few volunteers with sub-admin powers to delete posts and clean up after people.
posted by PrinceValium at 6:16 PM on August 9, 2004
and I'll whisper the following since I know it's a sensitive topic: any upgrade to Mefi that allows for an increased userbase and more discussion areas - especially a craigslist-type swap shop forum - simply has to allow for more moderators, or else the place absolutely will go to pieces. Matt should make all the major decisions, but we need a few volunteers with sub-admin powers to delete posts and clean up after people.
posted by PrinceValium at 6:16 PM on August 9, 2004
on the recommends mock-up - that's ok, but not what i was expecting at all. i thought it was more along the lines of people being able to add recommendations to their profile of things they particularly liked (or is that where the info comes from?). perhaps with voting/number bought ratings. but i guess i just assumed that without reading any details...
posted by andrew cooke at 6:26 PM on August 9, 2004
posted by andrew cooke at 6:26 PM on August 9, 2004
I'd subscribe to remove adverts, like I already do for Slashdot. Except that the ads here aren't obnoxious enough to pay to remove.
Solution: More obnoxious ads on the front page!
posted by inpHilltr8r at 6:45 PM on August 9, 2004
Solution: More obnoxious ads on the front page!
posted by inpHilltr8r at 6:45 PM on August 9, 2004
I wouldn't pay anything for additional features, because I can't: I don't have a credit card. Oh, and I'm dirt poor. Which Mefi demographic do I represent?
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 7:18 PM on August 9, 2004
posted by Pseudoephedrine at 7:18 PM on August 9, 2004
I'd like a MetaFilter Gold Card, with mileage I can use to get to Iceland.
posted by me3dia at 7:46 PM on August 9, 2004
posted by me3dia at 7:46 PM on August 9, 2004
it has occurred to me that i could be of valuable service to metafilter community members, and in the spirit of enriching myself i have decided to offer my unique talents to you.
what could quonsar do for me, you may ask? allow me to answer: say you have a really slick yahoo/cnn/msnbc link, or a rare "What Kind Of ____ Am I? quiz page you are dying to FPP. you really don't want quonsar derailing the insightful, thought-provoking intellectual wee-wee wagging that will ensue. in the past there was nothing you could do.
until now, that is! because now, thanks to special polymers developed for the space program by NASA engineers, you can have a quonsar-free mefi thread!
think of it! be the first on your block to get your very own quonsar-free thread! prices start at just $10! paypal link on my userpage! (roaming, connect and additional airtime charges apply)
posted by quonsar at 8:35 PM on August 9, 2004
what could quonsar do for me, you may ask? allow me to answer: say you have a really slick yahoo/cnn/msnbc link, or a rare "What Kind Of ____ Am I? quiz page you are dying to FPP. you really don't want quonsar derailing the insightful, thought-provoking intellectual wee-wee wagging that will ensue. in the past there was nothing you could do.
until now, that is! because now, thanks to special polymers developed for the space program by NASA engineers, you can have a quonsar-free mefi thread!
think of it! be the first on your block to get your very own quonsar-free thread! prices start at just $10! paypal link on my userpage! (roaming, connect and additional airtime charges apply)
posted by quonsar at 8:35 PM on August 9, 2004
andrew_cooke - it all comes down to which pages more eyeballs see, and the user pages just ain't shit (I'm sure - though I obviously don't know for sure).
Matt's advertising effort on the homepage is a reflection of this: lots of people see it, therefore it has value, therefore someone might buy a piece of it.
You're thining more in terms of user-oriented features. Think money.
errant: "
a. Wandering outside the established limits: errant lambs.
b. Aimless or irregular in motion: an errant afternoon breeze.
"
oh - and quonsar - that's extortion.
posted by scarabic at 8:37 PM on August 9, 2004
Matt's advertising effort on the homepage is a reflection of this: lots of people see it, therefore it has value, therefore someone might buy a piece of it.
You're thining more in terms of user-oriented features. Think money.
errant: "
a. Wandering outside the established limits: errant lambs.
b. Aimless or irregular in motion: an errant afternoon breeze.
"
oh - and quonsar - that's extortion.
posted by scarabic at 8:37 PM on August 9, 2004
I can't: I don't have a credit card
Er, come to think of it, that may be the biggest problem with a pay-for site: a significant part of the world's population is then basically excluded from membership.
Even in Canada it's a bitch to do transfers to a friend in the USA without getting charged up the wazoo. Anything paperbased has onerous surcharges, anything plastic requires Matt to open a credit account, and I'm not sure paypal works (and I'm quite sure I don't want to trust paypal for anything ever.)
It's going to be a damn site more difficult for people even further afield. Much more expensive, much more hassle, and much more likely to result in foreigners writing MeFi off as an all-Americans club.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:13 PM on August 9, 2004
Er, come to think of it, that may be the biggest problem with a pay-for site: a significant part of the world's population is then basically excluded from membership.
Even in Canada it's a bitch to do transfers to a friend in the USA without getting charged up the wazoo. Anything paperbased has onerous surcharges, anything plastic requires Matt to open a credit account, and I'm not sure paypal works (and I'm quite sure I don't want to trust paypal for anything ever.)
It's going to be a damn site more difficult for people even further afield. Much more expensive, much more hassle, and much more likely to result in foreigners writing MeFi off as an all-Americans club.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:13 PM on August 9, 2004
Good point, FFF. I never thought about it that way, but part of the reason I enjoy this site so much is the international membership. I never even stopped to think that the international-ness of the membership might have to do with its free-ness from credit-card-ness.
posted by scarabic at 9:15 PM on August 9, 2004
posted by scarabic at 9:15 PM on August 9, 2004
arrant.
*shakes Shatnerian mock-operatic fist at gleuschk, howls in rage*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:25 AM on August 10, 2004
*shakes Shatnerian mock-operatic fist at gleuschk, howls in rage*
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:25 AM on August 10, 2004
Oh yeah, and reklaw's a doody-head too. But I didn't need to tell you that.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:26 AM on August 10, 2004
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:26 AM on August 10, 2004
reklaw isn't a doody head, he's just an example of why more lurkers need to jump in and participate. Er - well, not an example, but... if he can open his face up and speak, SO CAN YOU!
posted by scarabic at 12:35 AM on August 10, 2004
posted by scarabic at 12:35 AM on August 10, 2004
I can't: I don't have a credit card
I do not have one either (EU), but it was no problem to transfer the money to paypal and then submit it to matt.
posted by tcp at 2:03 AM on August 10, 2004
I do not have one either (EU), but it was no problem to transfer the money to paypal and then submit it to matt.
posted by tcp at 2:03 AM on August 10, 2004
I do not have one either (EU), but it was no problem to transfer the money to paypal and then submit it to matt.
Exactly what I did! :) - Germany
posted by erratic frog at 2:46 AM on August 10, 2004
Exactly what I did! :) - Germany
posted by erratic frog at 2:46 AM on August 10, 2004
fff:
I've long thought that the america-centric nature of this community runs pretty deep anyway. The assumption on most posts is that one would be familiar with US politics, current events, sports and popular culture. Most who post such items do not bother to explain parts that non-USians will be unfamiliar with - and even the posts which are designed to appeal to, Europeans, say, get invaded by yanks snarking that it's 'soccer, naht football', etc.
We know our place: prostrate before the immensity, ubiquity and superiority of the eternal american.
But hey - thanks for letting us in to your party! It really is the 'World' Series! [guffaw!]
posted by dash_slot- at 6:02 AM on August 10, 2004
I've long thought that the america-centric nature of this community runs pretty deep anyway. The assumption on most posts is that one would be familiar with US politics, current events, sports and popular culture. Most who post such items do not bother to explain parts that non-USians will be unfamiliar with - and even the posts which are designed to appeal to, Europeans, say, get invaded by yanks snarking that it's 'soccer, naht football', etc.
We know our place: prostrate before the immensity, ubiquity and superiority of the eternal american.
But hey - thanks for letting us in to your party! It really is the 'World' Series! [guffaw!]
posted by dash_slot- at 6:02 AM on August 10, 2004
Well, the site is based in the US, and a majority of the members are from the US. Plus, it's a fair bet that almost everyone in the world who is likely to be on MeFi is at least somewhat conversant with US pop culture and politics. And if you don't know what's going on, just ask. There are people who are happy to help.
posted by Vidiot at 8:14 AM on August 10, 2004
posted by Vidiot at 8:14 AM on August 10, 2004
We Canadians demand that MetaFilter immediately institute a payment system in wampum and beaver pelts.
posted by timeistight at 9:04 AM on August 10, 2004
posted by timeistight at 9:04 AM on August 10, 2004
well, there seems to be a lot of people suggesting a (insert thing here).metafilter.com... plus the need for more moderators. why not allow some mefi elite to generate and moderate the additional regions, like reviews.metafilter.com for mefi recommends or email.metafilter.com for @metafilter.com email addresses? or even AskMefi, for that matter. this means (a) the other stuff can be on other servers, so one crapping out won't take down all of them, and lessen the workload on the main server, and (b) matt can spend what free time he has on mefi and metatalk, and let some sub-admin handle the other regions.
alternatively (or in addition to the above) matt might consider appointing certain mefi users he trusts as sub-admins, with the right to mark threads as questionable for his review, without the absolute right to kill a thread. marked threads might display a warning on the top stating that matt might kill it, with a reason why (chosen from a drop-down list of several generic reasons matt kills threads now). (this could allow people to avoid having to go to metatalk and bitch about how sucky the thread is, which generally seems to cause matt more problems trying to pacify people while deciding whether to kill the thread.)
perhaps getting some help handling the day-to-day things like monitoring threads would allow matt to save more of the time he devotes to mefi to actually improve things, rather than having to spend so much time doing housekeeping. if matt had ready access to a concise list of threads in need of pruning, it would (hopefully) take less time for him to decide whether to cut, rather than having to spend time finding out why the thread was crap to begin with.
i do think that more obnoxious ads wouldn't be a bad thing for non-logged in people. i personally hate ads, but that's life. you can't easily avoid them. but you can't always get a free pony either, and matt's been giving out ponies for a long time without any demands for repayment.
(all of the above written with the understanding that any plan that involves adding new features will also involve making the server work harder due to increased load, and making matt have to spend time he doesn't have adding and troubleshooting the new features. which is probably a real pain in the ass.)
posted by caution live frogs at 10:08 AM on August 10, 2004
alternatively (or in addition to the above) matt might consider appointing certain mefi users he trusts as sub-admins, with the right to mark threads as questionable for his review, without the absolute right to kill a thread. marked threads might display a warning on the top stating that matt might kill it, with a reason why (chosen from a drop-down list of several generic reasons matt kills threads now). (this could allow people to avoid having to go to metatalk and bitch about how sucky the thread is, which generally seems to cause matt more problems trying to pacify people while deciding whether to kill the thread.)
perhaps getting some help handling the day-to-day things like monitoring threads would allow matt to save more of the time he devotes to mefi to actually improve things, rather than having to spend so much time doing housekeeping. if matt had ready access to a concise list of threads in need of pruning, it would (hopefully) take less time for him to decide whether to cut, rather than having to spend time finding out why the thread was crap to begin with.
i do think that more obnoxious ads wouldn't be a bad thing for non-logged in people. i personally hate ads, but that's life. you can't easily avoid them. but you can't always get a free pony either, and matt's been giving out ponies for a long time without any demands for repayment.
(all of the above written with the understanding that any plan that involves adding new features will also involve making the server work harder due to increased load, and making matt have to spend time he doesn't have adding and troubleshooting the new features. which is probably a real pain in the ass.)
posted by caution live frogs at 10:08 AM on August 10, 2004
Transfer to paypal isn't a solution: that company is simply untrustworthy. And wiring money to them means I incur a surcharge -- quite likely a surcharge equal to the piddling amount Matt is likely to request! That's just inane.
Here's my offer of payment: I expect to be moving to a house soon. Matt is invited to stay, free room and board, for up to a week at a time, once a year. Just as I get free "room and board" here at MeFi.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:11 AM on August 10, 2004
Here's my offer of payment: I expect to be moving to a house soon. Matt is invited to stay, free room and board, for up to a week at a time, once a year. Just as I get free "room and board" here at MeFi.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:11 AM on August 10, 2004
Sure, and he borrow my car next time he's in Vancouver.
Anyway, it's a moot point unless you want to buy a textad, donate, or signup for the premium features, if that ever happens. Maybe you could send a cheque.
posted by timeistight at 10:21 AM on August 10, 2004
Anyway, it's a moot point unless you want to buy a textad, donate, or signup for the premium features, if that ever happens. Maybe you could send a cheque.
posted by timeistight at 10:21 AM on August 10, 2004
fff- I use PayPal to process transactions on my site. It's fine, and particularly nice for sellers who have low prices/volume (their transaction fees are negligible), and buyers who don't have credit cards. Given their volume, I think that the uproar over a few incidents is overblown.
Matt- why isn't there a nice, fat "Donate" button on the home page?
posted by mkultra at 12:11 PM on August 10, 2004
Matt- why isn't there a nice, fat "Donate" button on the home page?
posted by mkultra at 12:11 PM on August 10, 2004
We Canadians demand that MetaFilter immediately institute a payment system in wampum and beaver pelts.
Interesting, here in the San Fernando Valley a lot of transactions are made with beaver pelts...
posted by wendell at 12:29 PM on August 10, 2004
Interesting, here in the San Fernando Valley a lot of transactions are made with beaver pelts...
posted by wendell at 12:29 PM on August 10, 2004
Interesting, here in the San Fernando Valley a lot of transactions are made with beaver pelts...
he'll be here all week people! try the veal!
seriously wendell, that was great. thanx :)
posted by Stynxno at 1:28 PM on August 10, 2004
he'll be here all week people! try the veal!
seriously wendell, that was great. thanx :)
posted by Stynxno at 1:28 PM on August 10, 2004
Matt, if you are looking for how to really, truly profit from the site, I think your only route is to invest some time and server upgrades to allow for more (free) members, open the gates to balloon the number of people actively participating on the site, then sell the shit out of advertising. Get an advertising guy who can work on that full time. Ads are the only practical way to make money off of a content-driven site.
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 4:32 PM on August 10, 2004
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 4:32 PM on August 10, 2004
There's no "only way." A generic ad system, combined with very targeted referrals to special partners, plus pro membership fees, merchandise, and sales of member data are usually all working together at any profitable content-driven site.
Oops! I don't think I was supposed to mention that last one.
posted by scarabic at 6:54 PM on August 10, 2004
Oops! I don't think I was supposed to mention that last one.
posted by scarabic at 6:54 PM on August 10, 2004
A generic ad system, combined with very targeted referrals to special partners, plus pro membership fees, merchandise, and sales of member data are usually all working together at any profitable content-driven site.
dude, how is that not ad-driven? you throw in "pro membership fees" & "merchandise," but i think there are lots of good arguments given above why those would be nominal income generators at best. (i'm just talking cold hard business 101, not where i would like to see the site go, by the way. porn sites make a lot of money from membership fees, and there may be other specialty communities where that works, but something as big and baggy as metafilter doesn't seem like a likely candidate to me.)
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 7:26 PM on August 10, 2004
dude, how is that not ad-driven? you throw in "pro membership fees" & "merchandise," but i think there are lots of good arguments given above why those would be nominal income generators at best. (i'm just talking cold hard business 101, not where i would like to see the site go, by the way. porn sites make a lot of money from membership fees, and there may be other specialty communities where that works, but something as big and baggy as metafilter doesn't seem like a likely candidate to me.)
posted by _sirmissalot_ at 7:26 PM on August 10, 2004
Somebody asked for a "Donate" button?
I'll be here all week. Try the beaver.
posted by wendell at 8:12 PM on August 10, 2004
I'll be here all week. Try the beaver.
posted by wendell at 8:12 PM on August 10, 2004
i'm just talking cold hard business 101
Me too. I guess we differ.
posted by scarabic at 10:43 PM on August 10, 2004
Me too. I guess we differ.
posted by scarabic at 10:43 PM on August 10, 2004
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
- How much money is required?
- How can the site generate that money?
posted by timeistight at 11:27 AM on August 8, 2004