Historical engineering

March 20, 2006 9:04 AM

If the admins are going to delete comments then at least delete any responses to those comments and the collateral damage. It has more finesse, although I guess it would take more time, but that's the price of historical engineering. Yes, it was my comment that was deleted. That's fine, I don't mind that at all, and I'm sorry for the mess.
posted by gsb to Feature Requests at 9:04 AM (65 comments total)

I agree. I would have posted this myself had I not already posted to MeTa last night. That beginning of that thread is comprehensible only by reference to comments that no longer exist.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:08 AM on March 20, 2006

If buttheads are going to post messages that will be deleted, then at least they shouldn't press press the post button, and save us all from the collateral damage. It has more finesse.
posted by crunchland at 9:11 AM on March 20, 2006

Oh, Matt's so damned thin-skinned. Your comment made fun of a conservative, and Matt won't allow that.

I think it's a matter of Matt's pocketbook: Matt gets more page views when there's ideological acrimony going on.

But there aren't many articulate conservatives here. To "preserve" this "endangered" population, Matt deletes comments Matt fears might drive those conservatives away.

Without conservatives to troll, there'd be no 200-comment threads and no outraged liberals directing traffic to Matt's site and paying five bucks to tell dios off. The conservative trolls give Matt's site the excitement, and in turn he protects them from getting their feeling hurt.
posted by orthogonality at 9:11 AM on March 20, 2006

Without conservatives to troll, there'd be no 200-comment threads and no outraged liberals directing traffic to Matt's site and paying five bucks to tell dios off.

I think you may be underestimating the self-satisfying voracity of outraged Internet Liberals.

It is a compelling thesis, but I think you're off.
posted by cortex at 9:16 AM on March 20, 2006

ortho: It's telling just how liberal MeFi is when dios, who has never admitted being a conservative, is cast in that role just because he disagrees with the prevailing MeFi liberal orthodoxy.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 9:20 AM on March 20, 2006

I think it's a matter of Matt's pocketbook:

I believe there is a lib/con double-standard here too, but you have absolutely no basis to claim it's motivated by money.
posted by If I Had An Anus at 9:21 AM on March 20, 2006

Orthogonality, does the shit you're filled with regenerate itself, or do you have to go out to the septic tank with a siphoning hose to top it up every once in a while?

Or is this one of those patented Orthogonality Says The Opposite of What He Really Means comments?
'Cuz those are deep, man. Really makes ya think, y'know?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:29 AM on March 20, 2006

Right on, monju.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:30 AM on March 20, 2006

Alvy Ampersand writes "Orthogonality, does the shit you're filled with regenerate itself, or do you have to go out to the septic tank with a siphoning hose to top it up every once in a while?"


Well, as long as we're engaging in ad hominems, I topped off your momma with my septic tank siphoning hose last night. And blah blah blah.

In all seriousness, Alvy, if you disagree so stridently, point out where you think my supposition is wrong. Give it a try, you might be able to win an argument on the merits.

On the other hand, if this is just the "I'll curry favor with the site owner by rushing to his defense", well, give that a go over on MySpace. Matt's perfectly capable of taking care of himself, and he doesn't need you to play guard dog.
posted by orthogonality at 9:36 AM on March 20, 2006

What Monju said. When the Metafilter posse can't find a conservative (and I am not sure there are any at this site), they paint a big C on anyone who departs from the group think and attack that person.
posted by LarryC at 9:37 AM on March 20, 2006

I really do wish that the admins would replace the text of deleted comments with "[comment deleted]", or something similar. No need for explanations--just a notification that the admins have taken action. (That's the practice on every other moderated board I visit online, at any rate.)

I don't know if this requires writing code--if so, then it'd be code worth writing.
posted by Prospero at 9:38 AM on March 20, 2006

The topic at hand is: delete main "offensive comment" or delete main "offensive comment" and ancillary comments related to it.

I think a [comment deleted] thing would be more distracting than a perceived "offensive comment".
posted by gsb at 9:41 AM on March 20, 2006

Prospero writes "I really do wish that the admins would replace the text of deleted comments with '[comment deleted]'"

I hear there's a Firefox extension that does this.
posted by orthogonality at 9:42 AM on March 20, 2006

Somebody's first post in a thread was a derail/snark on someone else who wasn't even in the thread, and which led someone else to think it was a serious post, and get all angry in response. Clearly, the comment was deleted because the snark referenced a possible conservative, and not because it was itself noise. Of course not.
posted by Bugbread at 9:49 AM on March 20, 2006

The above comment is one of those patented Bugbread Says The Opposite of What He Really Means comments.
posted by Bugbread at 9:49 AM on March 20, 2006

gsb : "The topic at hand is: delete main 'offensive comment' or delete main 'offensive comment' and ancillary comments related to it. "

(Properly chastened)

Yes, that's the topic at hand. Sorry about my derail above.

I think "Comment Deleted" would make threads a sight less puzzling. That way, if you get every followup comment, huzzah, but even if you don't, the thread will make sense in its not-making-senseness.
posted by Bugbread at 9:52 AM on March 20, 2006

ortho: It's telling just how liberal MeFi is when dios, who has never admitted being a conservative, is cast in that role just because he disagrees with the prevailing MeFi liberal orthodoxy.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:20 AM CST on March 20

Worth repeating.

And whats more, ortho tries to drag me into this thread saying I am a troll, too. So, if you disagree with the prevailing orthodoxy, you must be conservative and you must be trolling. It can't be that you might actually believe what was said.

My question is what does orthogonality have invested in the idea that he must convince everyone that my opinion should be marginalized? In a thread that I am not participating in, about a thread I did not participate in, he brings into it and tries to force some argument that Matt likes to protect me from insults and the comment in that thread is evidence of it. Yet, his own comment (along with a cool 1,000 others) is an insult to me, and it remains, so his argument is asinine from the get go.

So what was the point of his comment? To take an unabated shot at me? To try to pressure Matt into doing what he wants? To complain? To conduct himself in a manner similar to the comments that were deleted and gave rise to this post? It's like an oroborus....
posted by dios at 9:53 AM on March 20, 2006

I really do wish that the admins would replace the text of deleted comments with "[comment deleted]"
posted by Prospero at 11:38 AM CST on March 20

I think jessamyn is pretty good about that. I notice those kind of comments from her occasionally. I don't know what proportion it is of me seeing the comments vs. it actually happening, though.
posted by dios at 9:56 AM on March 20, 2006

snakes eating their own tails ON A PLANE
posted by cortex at 9:56 AM on March 20, 2006

On the other hand, if this is just the "I'll curry favor with the site owner by rushing to his defense"
What if we simply disagree with your guess and how you've presented it?

As Petruchio over at perlmonks said,"From what I can tell, people get along better when they simply show that they're willing to waste time on each other." You seem to be the diametrical opposite of this: you spend only the bare amount of time on those disagreeing with you to insult them, and it's tiresome to read through.
posted by boo_radley at 10:01 AM on March 20, 2006

It's telling just how liberal MeFi is when dios, who has never admitted being a conservative, is cast in that role just because he disagrees with the prevailing MeFi liberal orthodoxy.

Yeah... not so much. dios called me a liberal a while back, because I am vehemently against the war and most of Bush's policies for the reason that they are very much at odds with what I have always considered to be "conservative principles."

So if dios wants to set himself up as the anti-liberal contrarian, he might just end up getting called a conservative, whether those words signify much of anything in America anymore or not.

(note, this is really, REALLY, not meant to stir up an old fight w/ dios, but I don't think ortho calling dios "conservative" tells us much about the site as a whole.)
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:01 AM on March 20, 2006

dios writes "So what was the point of his comment? To take an unabated shot at me? "

An "unabated shot"? Not sure what an "unabated" shot means, dios.

But maybe you're right. In fact I'll even admit you're right, if you'll be fair-minded enough to post your own real name in this thread. Since you don't mind posting mine, that's only fair, right dios old man?

By I suspect you don't have the balls to admit your own real name dios. Oh hell, I know you don't have the balls to take what you dish out, and that's precisely why you run and hide behind your momma's skirts after sticking out your tongue.

And that's how we know you're a troll, dios.
posted by orthogonality at 10:02 AM on March 20, 2006

[expletive deleted]
posted by kirkaracha at 10:02 AM on March 20, 2006

I'm a hypocrite for saying it (after all, I'm guilty of what I'm recommending against), but as gsb has reminded us, this is a thread urging the admins, if they are to delete comments, to delete followup comments again. The contents and particulars of this particular example are not what this thread is for.
posted by Bugbread at 10:03 AM on March 20, 2006

Oh, Matt's so damned thin-skinned. Your comment made fun of a conservative, and Matt won't allow that.

I think it's a matter of Matt's pocketbook: Matt gets more page views when there's ideological acrimony going on.

I didn't delete it, jackass.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:07 AM on March 20, 2006

bugbread: Ah, but would you want Jess & Matt to delete the off-topic comments in this thread?
posted by boo_radley at 10:08 AM on March 20, 2006

I did just delete the "collateral damage" though, as requested.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:09 AM on March 20, 2006

Walking the dog last week, I came across a bunch of kids . . . well, it went like this:

EXT - STREET OVER FROM MY HOUSE, DOVER - DAY

Our Hero is walking his dog down a neighborhood street where a game of basketball has just ended in an unfortunate manner. Out of a group of 5 kids, 2 are having a vehement discussion about possession of the basketball. They are WHINY, an undersized 9 year-old and FATSO, an oversized 12 year-old. WHINY punctuates every statement with a vicious swipe of the industrial broom he has in his hands.

W: YOU FUCKING FUCK ASSHOLE FUCKING PICKONSOMEONEYOUROWNSIZE
F: I do
W: FUCKYOUDON'TPICKONDJ
F: Yes I do
W: HE'DFUCKINGKICKYOURFUCKASSBITCH

Something about this thread reminds me of that little loud-mouth swinging the broom but never doing any damage. The wrong weapon, the wrong place and a complete and total ability to do anything effective. It all seems vaguely familiar.
posted by yerfatma at 10:09 AM on March 20, 2006

By I suspect you don't have the balls to admit your own real name dios. Oh hell, I know you don't have the balls to take what you dish out, and that's precisely why you run and hide behind your momma's skirts after sticking out your tongue. And that's how we know you're a troll, dios.

He's a troll because he doesn't want people to know his real name? First, I can't blame him, with the enormous amount of shit people here give him, and second, if that's your criteria for being a troll, there sure are a lot of trolls around this place.

Why don't you relax, and next time you think of taking a pot shot at dios for no reason and in a thread in which he didn't participate, don't.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 10:10 AM on March 20, 2006

boo_radley : "bugbread: Ah, but would you want Jess & Matt to delete the off-topic comments in this thread?"

Yep. I just flagged em (most of the thread, in fact, including two of my own comments). I figure it's good practice with the subject at hand ^_^
posted by Bugbread at 10:11 AM on March 20, 2006

Hey I know! Let's have another tiresome dios thread!

I wish you guys would just shut up about him. It's a lot easier to ignore him when half the damn site isn't yelling about him.
posted by CunningLinguist at 10:11 AM on March 20, 2006

I suspect you don't have the balls to admit your own real name...

Hang on. Didn't you throw a temper tantrum when someone revealed yours?

And hey, I agreed. Posting another person's info should merit deletion and an instant ban, no exceptions. But I also think you've disqualified yourself from pointing that particular finger.
posted by cribcage at 10:11 AM on March 20, 2006

dios called me a liberal a while back,
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:01 PM CST on March 20

No. I merely pointed out the 800 lb. elephant. You love to claim you are conservative, so you I asked you to go on record and state why you are conservative. I asked you to state your positions on the core "wedge" issues to show your bona fides. The reason for me asking you to do this is because you seem to really want us to believe that you are a conservative, but that 100% of your comments are anti-conservative.

So, if you are going to make a point of labeling yourself, why are you so afraid to of taking positions consistent with that label?
posted by dios at 10:16 AM on March 20, 2006

cribcage: a shred of context. More to be had from someone who knows where prior threads are—I'm not looking them up.

I think ortho is pushing an issue that is well past its freshness date at this point, but it's not quite the non-sequitur it might seem on a casual read.
posted by cortex at 10:18 AM on March 20, 2006

(Which is not to say that you, cribcage, don't already seem to have some of the greater context. But others, others...)
posted by cortex at 10:19 AM on March 20, 2006

mathowie writes "I didn't delete it, jackass."

In that case, I sincerely apologize: this deletion isn't an example of what I thought it was.

Nevertheless, there is a perception, and not only on my part, that their exists a tendency -- whether it's your policy or not -- that tends to "protect" those generally perceived as "conservative".

Perhaps mentioning about your "pocketbook" was gauche, but I do think that you know that the ideological fights make your site more interesting, that they keep people refreshing the page, so it's not much of a leap to think that you'd want to see those battles perpetuated. If that's not the case that you like to see these battles perpetuated, I really have to ask why dios's derails -- which fuel many of those battles -- are so infrequently, if ever, deleted.

Again, if there's an alternate explanation, I'll apologize just as I did for assuming that you'd deleted the comment in question.


cribcage writes "Posting another person's info should merit deletion and an instant ban, no exceptions. But I also think you've disqualified yourself from pointing that particular finger."

dios just posted my name, precisely because he hoped that would upset me. I challenged dios to take what he dished out by posting his own name. This means that we won't hear from Brave Sir Robin dios again in this thread.
posted by orthogonality at 10:22 AM on March 20, 2006

I looked at that thread and decided I couldn't do a damned thing with it and left it alone. I'm sort of surprised it stayed because it was going nowhere fast.

ortho, your level of angry sarcastic overeducated hyperbole is arguably as detrimental to this site as any conservative/liberal angry back and forth. When you tone it down you're articulate and clearly intelligent, but not really qualified to sit in the glass house and throw troll bones. I know dios' real name and where he works. Chill.

I think Matt's trying to level the playing field and keep this site from being a liberal-type echo chamber, though I couldn't tell you for certain. More to the point, I think he wants people to be able to participate honestly (and you can all disagree about whether dios is or is not doing that) without having crap they did six months ago tossed back in their face. I also think he'd prefer -- as I would -- the political posts to be good and worthwhile and not the latest Yahoo news on Iraq. Barring that I think he'd like -- as I would -- reasonable discussion even on crappy news posts. He's a weird sort of optimist in that way. Early snarky comments can derail a post that might otherwise be okay, though I agree if pruning is to be done it should be more comprehensive, which is why I stay out of MeFi most of the time anyhow.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:23 AM on March 20, 2006

Reading back over his comments, I now believe orthogonality believes he paid $5 to troll conservatives.
posted by boo_radley at 10:27 AM on March 20, 2006

yerfatma: Dover sucks more every day.
posted by jenovus at 10:31 AM on March 20, 2006

Perhaps mentioning about your "pocketbook" was gauche

Perhaps.

I long for the Internet where people would just say "man, that was a shitty thing I did" instead of narrow, neutered half-apologies.
posted by cortex at 10:34 AM on March 20, 2006

I didn't delete it....
posted by mathowie at 1:07 PM EST

I looked at that thread and decided I couldn't do a damned thing with it and left it alone....
posted by jessamyn at 1:23 PM EST

So neither of you did the original deletions?
posted by If I Had An Anus at 10:34 AM on March 20, 2006

orthogonality : "dios just posted my name, precisely because he hoped that would upset me."

Uh, dios just posted the name of the author who made an extension that does what you said some extension out there does. The only people (the ONLY people) who could read what dios wrote and realize that it was about you were the people that already knew...UNTIL you stated that he posted your name. So if anyone outed you, it was yourself.
posted by Bugbread at 10:37 AM on March 20, 2006

Looking back at dios' comment, I don't see anywhere where he revealed orthogonality's identity. He just linked to the extension orthogonality referenced. I don't know if dios knows about the prior threads about orthogonality and his love/hate relationship with his own name or not, but this thread certainly seems to be more about orthogonality's sensitivity to offense than about dios' alleged trolling.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 10:38 AM on March 20, 2006

dios: I merely pointed out the 800 lb. elephant.

Was it pissing?
posted by S.C. at 10:43 AM on March 20, 2006

Matt, since you've deleted dios' comment that relates to ortho's identity, you should probably prune the other comments (including this one) that reference it.

Cortex presaged well:
cortex : "snakes eating their own tails ON A PLANE"
posted by Bugbread at 10:43 AM on March 20, 2006

...but I do think that you know that the ideological fights make your site more interesting, that they keep people refreshing the page, so it's not much of a leap to think that you'd want to see those battles perpetuated.

They don't make the site more interesting, they make it a fucking bear to read, run, and drive people away in droves. If there was an easy fix, I would have done it ages ago. You make me sound like a guy sitting on a giant bag with a $ on it, laughing manically as everyone fights. How many times have I described my distaste for politcal posts and the stupid yelling-past-each-other comment threads they often create?

If that's not the case that you like to see these battles perpetuated, I really have to ask why dios's derails -- which fuel many of those battles -- are so infrequently, if ever, deleted.

If you would look at the top of this very thread, you'd see the answer to that -- it's not easy to prune out the one jackass comment and catch every single ripple effect it causes elsewhere, while at the same time fielding questions about "disappearing comments" and "why does anything have to be deleted, ever?!". It's not easy to do, so it's not done, and only the most egregious examples are removed.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:44 AM on March 20, 2006

Jesus Christ, dios. I have listed my conservative objections to this administration multiple times.

Why don't you waste your day dredging through my comment history and find a couple posts that are "anti-conservative."

It shouldn't take long, since they are, y'know, 100% anti-conservative.

Actually, you know what? Here you go:

I consider these very imporant: financial responsibility, personal autonomy, a more constrained federal government, sane foreign policy that wasn't shoved through with falsified information, individual property rights, due process, individual right to privacy, accountability in public office, a trustworthy voting system, tax laws that encourage entrepreneurialism instead of subsidising corporations, open processes at all levels of government, free speech that is not confined to zones, lower taxes (mine aren't), etc.

Now go down the list and tell me how this administration is actually fulfilling those ideals, or how no true conservative would actually want those things, or how I'm making mountains out of molehills. I really don't care what you think of me. I know it's just easier for you to mentally lump me in with liberals.

I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else here. If it weren't for the intentional conflation of Bushism with conservatism, I would never bring the matter up. I am far from the only former Republican who thinks the current Neo-Republicans are far from conservative. Most Republicans I speak to in RL feel increasingly the same way.

I do have to admit, though: they haven't taken our guns yet.

But, please, go ahead, pick this comment apart, since you've asked so politely for the opportunity. Hurry, before the thread gets locked.
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:45 AM on March 20, 2006

Matt, since you've deleted dios' comment that relates to ortho's identity, you should probably prune the other comments (including this one) that reference it.

And we return, with marvelous elegance, to the post topic.
posted by CunningLinguist at 10:45 AM on March 20, 2006

Of course, after Matt spends a half-hour trimming every post that vaguely references any spat having to do with Ortho's identity, then we can hear another lecture about how Matt bends over backwards to protect conservatives.
posted by cribcage at 10:48 AM on March 20, 2006

dios, I have to say, I haven't kept up with sonofsiam's political affiliations, but his description of himself is pretty much the dictionary definition of conservative.
posted by Bugbread at 10:54 AM on March 20, 2006

I wonder what metafilter would be like if it was populated by articulate, well-adjusted, and intelligent folks.
posted by crunchland at 10:55 AM on March 20, 2006

jumping jesus christ.
You know what, my name is Edgewood Smith I live in Duluth Mn and sometimes I think this place is great and sometimes it is a festering pit of high school drama x2. But, that's ok.
1. Take deep breath
2. Realize you're groovy
3. Be groovy
posted by edgeways at 10:55 AM on March 20, 2006

monju_bosatsu: "It's telling just how liberal MeFi is when dios, who has never admitted being a conservative, is cast in that role just because he disagrees with the prevailing MeFi liberal orthodoxy."

Oh yeah how dare MeFi make such generalizations! Must be because they're so damn liberal. They mistake one member's mocking, snide anti-liberalism as 'conservatism', such is the rampant orthodoxy of all of MeFi -- those generalizing fucks.
posted by fleacircus at 10:56 AM on March 20, 2006

Matt, since you've deleted dios' comment that relates to ortho's identity

The ironic thing is I didn't delete the dios comment in this thread, but I do admit I'm responsible for most clunky deleted comments. Jessamyn is much better about emailing people, putting [deleted] messages, and most of these flame-outs about deletions were my fault.

I hope the lesson is don't attribute malice on the part of me or jessamyn, as if deleting a comment is us following our own personal vices when sometimes it was the other person simply trying to snip some noise from the signal.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 10:56 AM on March 20, 2006

I really do wish that the admins would replace the text of deleted comments with "[comment deleted]", or something similar....(That's the practice on every other moderated board I visit online, at any rate.)

That really needs to be seen again. Matt's rationale for not using a marker for deleted comments has always been really weak. Leaving inexplicable gaping holes in archived discussions has never made much sense. Please reconsider that, Matt.
posted by mediareport at 10:56 AM on March 20, 2006

This site is increasingly beginning to resemble a bunch of IRC chatbots stuck in a feedback loop.
posted by Ryvar at 11:00 AM on March 20, 2006

startkeylogger
posted by TwelveTwo at 11:01 AM on March 20, 2006

"You make me sound like a guy sitting on a giant bag with a $ on it"

Hey, that's MY job!!!
posted by mischief at 11:02 AM on March 20, 2006

In all seriousness, Alvy, if you disagree so stridently, point out where you think my supposition is wrong. Give it a try, you might be able to win an argument on the merits.

It wasn't an ad hominem, it was the Reader's Digest version. If you want, I'll retract my claim that you, orthogonality, are full of shit. Your comment, however, was.
Better?
Your suppositions were obviously personally-motivated falsifications and self-serving agenda-pushing to anyone with a brain.
Since you're apparently not one of those people, here goes:

Hmm.
You are saying that Mathowie implicitly encourages these little fracases, which are of interest to less than 5% of MeFi's members, for monetary gain. Proof?
You claim to be privy not only to individual page views counts, but also people's motivations for viewing those pages. Data?
And again, I doubt that there's as much money in the Adventures of the Anti-Dios Attention Whore Squad as there is in AskMe, for example. If there was, why wouldn't Matt link to them in the sidebar? I hear he has four payments left on his private island, so his reluctance to pimp petty bitching - according to you, a real cash cow - is puzzling.
You are saying that the admin's motivation for tolerating whom you perceive as being politically wrong and unpopular members are purely mercenary, and not fairmindedness and a desire to see balanced discourse. If you want HomogenyFilter, I suggest you get a MySpace.

On the other hand, if this is just the "I'll curry favor with the site owner by rushing to his defense"...

Curry favor? What happens if I get in his good books, will all my AskMe responses magically get appended to them? Will the Jabber server be resurrected? I have nothing to gain from doing what I did other than show that some members don't care for baseless attacks. I'll bet you called the other seventh graders who did their work "Suck-ups." It's time to grow up, chum.


...give that a go over on MySpace. Matt's perfectly capable of taking care of himself, and he doesn't need you to play guard dog.

If Matt's the only one who's allowed to call bullshit on you, you probably should have e-mailed him instead of making an ass of yourself in public.

But you wouldn't get any ATTENTION!!! that way, would you?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:02 AM on March 20, 2006

fleacircus: "Oh yeah how dare MeFi make such generalizations! Must be because they're so damn liberal. They mistake one member's mocking, snide anti-liberalism as 'conservatism', such is the rampant orthodoxy of all of MeFi -- those generalizing fucks."

Where, pray tell, is this "mocking, snide anti-liberalism?" Because I couldn't find any. Perhaps you could give me some specific examples.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:05 AM on March 20, 2006

I merely pointed out the 800 lb. elephant.

A baby elephant? What about the gorilla in the room?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:07 AM on March 20, 2006

So, uh, Matt, this thread should probably be closed soon, unless its time for our daily romperfest.
posted by Bugbread at 11:09 AM on March 20, 2006

crunchland writes "I wonder what metafilter would be like if it was populated by articulate, well-adjusted, and intelligent folks."

Wouldn't that be like a tree falling in a forest? I know I'd never get a chance to find out.
posted by OmieWise at 11:09 AM on March 20, 2006

You make me sound like a guy sitting on a giant bag with a $ on it, laughing manically as everyone fights.

"Yes, dance, my puppets! Dance!"
posted by Gator at 11:12 AM on March 20, 2006

Good call bugbread, I think we're done here.
posted by mathowie (staff) at 11:14 AM on March 20, 2006