Green is white! White is black! Cats and dogs sleeping together! posted by cortex at 3:35 PM on March 5, 2007
I am an unapologetic fan of AskMe, and consider it to be one of the greatest sites on the web. I've written at length about what an accomplishment it is, and I'm frequently asked to speak about things like web community and use it as a positive example.
With increasing frequency, though, I find people who are unfamiliar with the site questioning the legitimacy of AskMe, and of the answers therein, because the default green/yellow color scheme doesn't look "professional". Typically, these are fairly web-savvy individuals, who are used to using various Google or Yahoo services, and associate a white background, or possibly a grey/black background, with "real" websites.
I'm completely fine with a green background option being made available for those who want to keep the current scheme, but visitors who come in from search traffic should be able to tell that the site is a compelling resource without being distracted by the unfortunate default aesthetics.
(I welcome the inevitable debate here, but "...but we call it The Green in MeTa!" is not a valid reason to not make the change.) posted by anildash at 3:36 PM on March 5, 2007
...and pardon my slow "more inside" typing. :) posted by anildash at 3:37 PM on March 5, 2007
anildashwrites"With increasing frequency, though, I find people who are unfamiliar with the site questioning the legitimacy of AskMe, and of the answers therein, because the default green/yellow color scheme doesn't look 'professional'"
I find people who are unfamiliar with the site questioning the legitimacy of AskMe, and of the answers therein, because the default green/yellow color scheme doesn't look "professional".
Oh, ok.
No. The site looks great. It has hundreds (thousands?) of contributors and tens of thousands of readers. Why should the site change just because your friends are too lazy to bother to read it? posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:39 PM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
I was going to snark, but peacay did it more eloquently than I could. Professional iff black on white? Pfah. That's like people who only think it's art if it's in a frame on a museum wall. posted by Plutor at 3:41 PM on March 5, 2007
Goddamn, that's the stupidest reason ever to change something. People also seem to like American flags and frybread, by the way.
The one thought I've never had when looking at AskMe is that it looks poorly designed or amateurish. It's as utilitarian and elegant as a scalpel. posted by docpops at 3:44 PM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
These are the same people who wouldn't buy a personal computer until IBM put one out. posted by InfidelZombie at 3:45 PM on March 5, 2007
Throw that filthy bathwater out the window! There. Say, has anyone seen the baby? posted by fandango_matt at 3:46 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Remember how once upon a time all computers were a boring shade of beige?
Then a computer company brought out computers that were all candy coloured green and pink and blue. And everyone loved them!
I don't know what my point is. Also, I haven't touched a Mac since 1997. But if all this Web2.0, appealing to "web-savvy individuals, who are used to using various Google or Yahoo services" bullshit means we need a white background and rounded corners and little reflection graphics, then call me Web1.0 thank you very much.
Why do we want to attract peopel who value style over substance?
What have they got against coloureds? posted by Jimbob at 3:47 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
You know who else thought green was unprofessional?
This isn't Metafiltr, we don't need to worry about not appearing Web 2.0 enough. posted by hugsnkisses at 3:48 PM on March 5, 2007 [12 favorites]
These are the same people who wouldn't buy a personal computer until IBM put one out.
Exactly. And there are a lot of them, and we're a self-selecting group that can't look at the situation objectively because we're involved in/used to it.
There are a lot of good arguments against this proposal (as well as many for it) -- tautological statements about personal preference that are impossible to separate from conditioning aren't among them. posted by j.edwards at 3:48 PM on March 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
I find people who are unfamiliar with the site questioning the legitimacy of AskMe, and of the answers therein, because the default green/yellow color scheme doesn't look "professional".
Do these people salivate on their own foreheads? posted by grouse at 3:48 PM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
These are the same people who wouldn't buy a personal computer until IBM put one out.
Or, as some of us like to call them, "normal" people. I guess I had presumed that some here were interested in attracting new members, as well. posted by anildash at 3:49 PM on March 5, 2007
Dogs and cats aside, what they said. AskMe certainly isn't having any problems attracting readers and contributors—last we heard from Matt, it's the most visited part of the site, and the biggest problems people have noticed are with too much growth.
Pointedly stripping away a big part of the identifying character of the site to serve the questionable purpose of making it more attractive to people who would avoid it for not looking blandly professional seems like a bad move. posted by cortex at 3:49 PM on March 5, 2007
I guess I had presumed that some here were interested in attracting new members, as well.
HAHAHAHAHAH. If there's anything held uniformly in the hearts of Mefites (other than that declawing cats is very very wrong), it's that n00bs are teh suck. posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:50 PM on March 5, 2007 [11 favorites]
What everybody else said. If they can't figure out it's a worthwhile site without a white background (??), fuck 'em. posted by languagehat at 3:51 PM on March 5, 2007
I guess I had presumed that some here were interested in attracting new members, as well.
I'd rather be able to post a question every week again. posted by grouse at 3:51 PM on March 5, 2007
Metafilter is blue: blue representing the great unknown oceans of the interwebs. Metatalk is grey: the grey area between reason an isanity (inanity also). AskMetafilter is green: green representing nature and the Green Man or Khidr, the hidden prophet who comes to the aid of seekers of true knowledge. I thought everyone knew that.
Someone help me out with the colors of the other sections of the site, please. posted by Burhanistan at 3:52 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
"HAHAHAHAHAH. If there's anything held uniformly in the hearts of Mefites (other than that declawing cats is very very wrong), it's that n00bs are teh suck."
to people who would avoid it for not looking blandly professional
Ah, see, there's a real reason for changing the color of the site: a site that's white would probably be less noticable on the desktop of a worker bee screwing their employer out of productive work time. I absolutely do not think the site should change, but if I were going to make a MeTa post on the subject, that's how I'd go at it. posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:52 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Another data point: I almost agree with anildash. Although more from an utilitarian perspective (it's hard on my eyes). Not terribly fond of the gray and blue color schemes, either, for that matter. But it's never bothered me enough to be worth mentioning before, or to keep me from reading, either. I guess if it were up to me, I'd recommend muting the hues rather than losing the color schemes altogether. White would be too generic. posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:52 PM on March 5, 2007
To be a little more productive: If, as is possible now, you could set your background to be the current green/yellow (and I could leave mine with the white/lofi setting) but new users would see white/lofi by default, would that be objectionable? Everybody who sees green now could continue to. posted by anildash at 3:53 PM on March 5, 2007
I can see how the white color scheme might attract the more, um, corporate folks, but the site's overrun as it is. How long do you have to wait to post your next question these days? It was three years or something the last time I checked, I think. posted by Devils Slide at 3:54 PM on March 5, 2007
Change is bad.
Haha. Just kidding. THE PROPOSED change is bad.
You know what might improve site traffic? Search Engine Optimization. Let's do that. Everybody be sure to type Britanny Spears at the end of their comments over and over and over again. Also, more wikipedia links! posted by anotherpanacea at 3:55 PM on March 5, 2007
For reference: The plain text setting in your profile lets you see AskMe in white. posted by anildash at 3:55 PM on March 5, 2007
If the site can be a valuable resource to more people, and can easily increase in reputation through some easy cosmetic change, I think it is wrong not to consider it. I kind of agree that the colors can be initially a little offputting. And I have alot of respect for Anil, too. He's not just talking about a couple of people. Of course it's up to Matt, but I wouldn't dismiss this out of hand as a suggestion made to infuriate us -- he's trying to help!
But, you know, snark, snark, snark, because his favorite MeTa sucks.
BTW FWIW, I just want to say that I think this request is heads and shoulders above other MeTas that ask for changes or ponies because an individual has a strong personal preference for something. This is a MeTa that has been made from personal observation of a bunch of people and applies to more than the poster. posted by onlyconnect at 3:58 PM on March 5, 2007
anildash, I'd still think it a deeply weird and counterintuitive thing to do, yes. There's a sense of identity to the green that is, I think, emblematic of some of the character of the site. That may tread dangerously into the area of emotional that's-the-way-it's-always-been territory that you'd like to dismiss, but I think it's inescapable: an Ask Metafilter rendered devoid of the identifiers that make it AskMe and not Corporate-Friendly Q&A Site is not the one I want to hang around at. posted by cortex at 3:58 PM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
(And I say this as someone who rocks the plaintext scheme at work.) posted by cortex at 3:59 PM on March 5, 2007
because the default green/yellow color scheme doesn't look "professional"
Yes. What's your point? posted by cillit bang at 3:59 PM on March 5, 2007
I agree with anildash. Most people who are commenting in here refresh AskMeFi 100x a day. Your opinion, though valid, is mildly biased toward maintaining the status quo. Otherwise, wouldn't more people have created MeTa threads in AskMeFi's 2 years and some odd month's history addressing this issue?
The entire site isn't "professional". It was never meant to be. But now that AskMeFi is getting national and international recognition, it might be time to make it mildly more traditional to appeal to a larger audience. And Anil is suggesting that an option exist, not that the entire site change irrevocably. I think that at least giving people that option is fair. posted by SeizeTheDay at 3:59 PM on March 5, 2007
If the page seems unprofessional, I suggest it may be for reasons other than the color scheme. posted by Dave Faris at 4:00 PM on March 5, 2007
ThePinkSuperhero: "If there's anything held uniformly in the hearts of Mefites (other than that declawing cats is very very wrong), it's that n00bs are teh suck."
And that's coming from the mouth of a lowly 17.7ker. posted by Plutor at 4:02 PM on March 5, 2007
Cortex, in one way or another most all of us are indeed constrained to rock the plaintext scheme at work. Alas. posted by Burhanistan at 4:05 PM on March 5, 2007
But now that AskMeFi is getting national and international recognition, it might be time to make it mildly more traditional to appeal to a larger audience.
To what purpose? Is there no greater goal for the site than bland approachability? Are we bucking for a Yahoo bid? Of course that sort of thing is ultimately Matt's call, but I think a lot of folks would be shocked if he decided to embrace the path of saleability. posted by cortex at 4:08 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
I've never been totally sure about the color scheme, it's good for reference (as I move between MeFi and AskMe and MeTa) so I changed to plain text as a result of reading this discussion. It hurt my eyes. posted by ob at 4:08 PM on March 5, 2007
"I find people who are unfamiliar with the site questioning the legitimacy of AskMe, and of the answers therein, because the default green/yellow color scheme doesn't look "professional"."
Fuck 'em.
"Why should the site change just because your friends are too lazy to bother to read it?"
You forgot 'stuck up'. Goddamn coloristas.
Also, Jobs is already the "white" "professional" facet of MetaFilter. As a person of mixed heritage which includes about 50% Black, it's no wonder I hang out mostly in MeTa and Music/HiFi. I mean, HiFi rocks and all the suburban white kids will be copying it in 5-10 years. And MeTa, well; people are just so surprised when there's a quality MeTa post. And yet all they can say is: "Oh, that post is so well-written." Or: "It's so amazing that poster didn't get drunk and flame out," as if that's all that we, the Grey, are good for. "Go post more to music!" they tell us. "Do a little tap dance and we might buy you a sock puppet." Yes, suh; no, suh. How come we can never be as good as the rest of the site, they ask us? Why don't we work harder, get ahead, make something of ourselves? But they don't want that. They want the violence, the vitriol, the hatred, the flameouts; and, as these prophecies have a way of self-fulfilling, that's what they get. Is it any wonder that The Grey is so looked-down-upon, neglected, sometimes outright hated; even in this day and age?
And so I ask you, my brothers and sisters of all races, colors, creeds, and stylesheets, to unite with me in a boycott of every Metafilter subdomain which excludes the color black from its palette. Because I have a dream, that one day, all MetaFilter sites will be treated equally, whether black or white, blue or green, grey or... whatever color that other site is... what's it called, projects? It's like, red or purple or something. That all these sites could coexist in peace, with an end to the flameouts, the pitchforks, the lynchings, the threads about dios, and all of the host of logical fallacies whose epithets are hurled about like so many slurs, laden with degradation and sorrow on the morning after. Join me, my fellows, and post all of your best content to the Grey, and the Black, so that some day we can live as one, in peace. posted by Eideteker at 4:09 PM on March 5, 2007 [13 favorites]
anildash, have you got any ready quotes or is this just a cumulative thing? See, you say 'normal people' have some problems perceiving legitimacy with the site because of the colour scheme but to me, it's the techy design freaks who would be more likely to come to such a spurious conclusion and the 'normal people' are either here or will be thankful to find the resource when they arrive. So, what's your sample space and what are the backgrounds of your so-called 'normal people'?
*trys to think of parallel issue of utmost inconsequence to facetiously bring up for ostensible humor creation, fails; also fails to be surprised that actual thread devoted to actual issue of utmost inconsequence is chugging along at a comment a minute for the first 40 minutes* posted by Kwine at 4:14 PM on March 5, 2007
I'm sorry, I'm confused. You love MetaFilter, I'm assuming you find the overall mechanics of the site user-friendly, but...you think the site should be reworked to appeal to people who use background color as a prime determinant of legitimacy? posted by lalex at 4:15 PM on March 5, 2007 [4 favorites]
People who gain stature and success in a field -- in this specific example the field of the web community -- can fall prey to projecting their own beliefs and biases further than what more casual observers see as reality. Less circumspectly, I do not think Anil Dash has his finger on the pulse of the web-using community with respect to its interpretation of color schemes quite to the extent necessary to draw the conclusions made by him here.
Snce he is a known friend of Matt Haughey, this could make one wonder if the issue was already raised with Matt privately, but no matter. For myself, I think the reasons given for the color-change suggestion lack merit. posted by mdevore at 4:20 PM on March 5, 2007
To what purpose? Is there no greater goal for the site than bland approachability?
The same reason why we make MeFi customizable. There are many people here with various tastes and customization allows users a greater UI experience. This, IMHO, is no different. I don't see the harm in allowing visitors a more visually appealing site. Fact is, we want more visitors, who might eventually become members, who might eventually contribute to the site's knowledge base. What's wrong with appealing to people who like plain vanilla sites? Are we so arrogant that we think that those who dislike the green background are people we don't want here anyway?
Are we bucking for a Yahoo bid?
I think this move would attempt to tap into a more mainstream audience. I'm starting to see why there would be resentment to this idea. Most people here probably don't consider themselves mainstream, and likely (this is just a guess) have a mild bit of contempt for the mainstreamers. I agree that we probably don't want to dilute the community too much, but appealing to a general audience isn't all bad. posted by SeizeTheDay at 4:20 PM on March 5, 2007
Your associates are making specious judgements regarding professional design. Good day to you. posted by boo_radley at 4:21 PM on March 5, 2007
See, you say 'normal people' have some problems perceiving legitimacy ...
What peacay said. Can you expand on your definition of "normal"? Keep in mind, it must somehow account for the popularity and existence of Myspace. posted by vacapinta at 4:23 PM on March 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
This reminds me of a book I'm reading right now called The Accidental Investment Banker. In one chapter he talks about how management of the big banks convince all their bankers that individually, they are all in the top 20% of banking. He talked about a specific example where everyone had their head down and a manager (or instructor, I don't remember) asked people to raise their hands if they thought that they were in the top 10% of bankers intellectually speaking. Then he said, top 5%? By the end, everyone except the author had their hand raised.
It seems like most people here (who are commenting in this thread) fit the same profile. We all think we're special. Kudos to Matt for a job well done. :-) posted by SeizeTheDay at 4:24 PM on March 5, 2007
When Google, or Yahoo, or any of the nuevo riche bloggers buy Matt out, they can change the color scheme. posted by Dave Faris at 4:26 PM on March 5, 2007
Are we so arrogant that we think that those who dislike the green background are people we don't want here anyway?
The proposition was not that these unidentified "normal" people dislike the green background, but that it causes them to question the legitimacy of the site. And yeah, if they are so quick to judge based on the color of a web site, I don't think I want them. posted by grouse at 4:30 PM on March 5, 2007
last we heard from Matt, it's the most visited part of the site
Then what we should do is make Jobs be green and all the links that say AskMeFi lead to jobs to confuse people and help the other subsites profit from the success of ask me. posted by micayetoca at 4:31 PM on March 5, 2007
I think this move would attempt to tap into a result in more cat questions due to a decidedly more mainstream audience.
I generally respect anil's advice but this one gets a big wtf? posted by dobbs at 4:31 PM on March 5, 2007
I have nothing particular to contribute here, other than my belief that any suggestion made in obvious good faith by a longtime member of the community should be duly and deliberately considered.
Anil: I love you like I love no other blogger. But I vote to keep the green. posted by Aloysius Bear at 4:33 PM on March 5, 2007
"When Google, or Yahoo, or any of the nuevo riche bloggers buy Matt out, they can change the color scheme."
Only if they give us a cut.
And by "us" I mean the cabal.
Which of course does not exist. posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:33 PM on March 5, 2007
If anyone but Anil Dash had proposed this the tarring, feathering, and running-out-of-town-on-a-rail-ing would have already been done with nothing else left to do but to clean up stray tar and featherage.
One of the things that makes the Meta family what it is, for me at least, is the backgrounds just the way they are. White backgrounds are boring. There are enough of them out there as it is. And as a wise person once said, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
It ain't broke. posted by konolia at 4:34 PM on March 5, 2007
Fact is, we want more visitors
No. We don't. That's why you're seeing everyone mocking this idea. posted by hugsnkisses at 4:39 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Is the suggestion really that the site looks unprofessional because it's different than OMGWEB2.0R00LZ? If so, that's just crazy talk. As has been stated in this thread, AxMe has no problem with participation. The section hit the ground running and hasn't stopped. It isn't difficult to read. It isn't difficult to interact with, even for newbies who don't frequent MeFi's front page.
(I welcome the inevitable debate here, but "...but we call it The Green in MeTa!" is not a valid reason to not make the change.)
Neither is: "Let's make it white so it looks more like Y! Pipes/Flickr/Google/etc, therefore it would be 'professional.'" posted by eyeballkid at 4:42 PM on March 5, 2007
The same reason why we make MeFi customizable. There are many people here with various tastes and customization allows users a greater UI experience. This, IMHO, is no different.
Your equivilance isn't. Making MeFi customizable is catering to various tastes; changing the face of AskMe to all unregistered users is catering to a different taste, period, and that taste is Wonderbread.
The problem that anildash is proposing to solve—generating growth for AskMe—is not merely non-existent: the space where it would be is actually occupied by its goatee-bearing evil twin brother. The site is goddam hopping. I can't believe that lack of growth can be taken as a serious impetus for this, good intentions aside. posted by cortex at 4:42 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Okay, the green is ugly. There, I said it. :) posted by anildash at 4:45 PM on March 5, 2007
AskMe is not professional, therefore it does not need white.
And from another perspective, the casual web surfer who gets linked to a compelling thread on Green Background AskMe, a subsite they've never heard of a site they've never heard of, will be left with this: that neat green-colored question site.
The same first-time visitor to homogenized White Background Askme: that question site. posted by cortex at 4:45 PM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
Hey, way to make me look like I'm backing a goon, Anil. :-)
Tar and feather away, folks. He is no longer worthy of defense... posted by SeizeTheDay at 4:47 PM on March 5, 2007
In the wintertime, my skin turns AskMeta green. I guess I'm ugly, too. ::cries:: posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:51 PM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
Sweet!
*sharpens pitchfork* posted by eyeballkid at 4:51 PM on March 5, 2007
Poor ThePinkSuperhero. Be gentle, eyeballkid. posted by SeizeTheDay at 4:53 PM on March 5, 2007
I meant it for Anil, but now that you mention it... green skin... Frankenstien's monster... That's more of a classic pitchfork use isn't it? posted by eyeballkid at 4:54 PM on March 5, 2007
Are we so arrogant that we think that those who dislike the green background are people we don't want here anyway?
The proposition was not that these unidentified "normal" people dislike the green background, but that it causes them to question the legitimacy of the site. And yeah, if they are so quick to judge based on the color of a web site, I don't think I want them.
What grouse said. posted by juv3nal at 4:58 PM on March 5, 2007
We don't want such stupid people.
I was all prepared to unload with the most devestating of snarks, but peacay nailed it with such surgical precision, succintness and utter frankness I am humbled and shamed. posted by loquacious at 5:03 PM on March 5, 2007
He talked about a specific example where everyone had their head down and a manager (or instructor, I don't remember) asked people to raise their hands if they thought that they were in the top 10% of bankers intellectually speaking. Then he said, top 5%? By the end, everyone except the author had their hand raised.
"By the end?" More of them thought they were in the top 5% than the top 10%? posted by Armitage Shanks at 5:04 PM on March 5, 2007
AskMe can't be white because Jobs is already white. Sorry, Anil, you missed the boat on this one. posted by Faint of Butt at 5:07 PM on March 5, 2007
Poor word choice, Armitage. At the end, those same people who thought that they were in the top 20 and top 10 also thought that they were in the top 5. Lesson was: all bankers are self-obsessed, delusional, ego maniacs. But it can apply to other occupations (and groups of people, which isn't to say that this site is really as bad as a bunch of i-bankers, but as far as interesting parallels go, I think this is a good one). posted by SeizeTheDay at 5:09 PM on March 5, 2007
Only if they give us a cut.
I wouldn't hold your breath on that, big guy. AskMe is built on the broken back of slaves. posted by Dave Faris at 5:11 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
I read the whole site as black-on-white and I like it a lot better that way. Maybe we should at the very least make it more obvious that there are two styles to choose form. Now that the site is getting all ajax-ified, maybe a style switcher button someplace obvious would be a good compromise. posted by jessamyn at 5:13 PM on March 5, 2007 [4 favorites]
Lesson was: all bankers are self-obsessed, delusional, ego maniacs.
I like being able to tell the difference between which part I'm reading and I find the color choice soothing. And black on white makes my eyes bleed. But sure, go ahead and make it clear to people they can have it ugly and cornea-burning if they want to. posted by dame at 5:18 PM on March 5, 2007
Well said, jessamyn.
But remember, if we make it easier for John Q. Corporate Straightguy to change it to plain white, how are we going to spot MeFi's distinctive colors in instances like the Frontline sightings?
The Metafilter colors are themselves, in a sense, an established brand. I'm wholly serious about this, and it is without a doubt a bunch of happy marketdroid horseshit, but it's more or less true.
There's very little else distinctive about MeFi. Take away the background colors and you just have plain text. The banner at the top is only visible for the brief moment you're not actually reading text down below.
My concern is that while the "market" of "web-savvy individuals" that anil refers to might love a professional white background...ask.metafilter is already full of web-savvy individuals. Questions regarding technology and the web get loads of responses - that's always been Metafilter's core userbase.
If we want to attract more people, surely we want to attract more normal people - you know, people who might be experts on gardening, or fishing. And normal people - the great unwased masses - have shown repeatedly they don't care about crazy backgroundcolours. posted by Jimbob at 5:29 PM on March 5, 2007
The original reason for a non-white background (at least, what I presume was the reason) is still the best one -- it fits with the experience people expect from MetaFilter as a whole. The fact that so many users defend the green so staunchly speaks to a real value that it has.
Presumably, though, everyone here views AskMe when they're logged in, right? Anil's not saying to change it for that situation. And it's hard to say whether non-members value that consistency of experience in anywhere near the same way, let alone respond to it. So I'm not sure that anything of real value would be lost. posted by mattpfeff at 5:29 PM on March 5, 2007
With increasing frequency, though, I find people who are unfamiliar with the site questioning the legitimacy of AskMe, and of the answers therein, because the default green/yellow color scheme doesn't look "professional".
Really, how many people are we talking about here? posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:39 PM on March 5, 2007
With increasing frequency, though, I find people who are unfamiliar with the site questioning the legitimacy of AskMe, and of the answers therein, because the default green/yellow color scheme doesn't look "professional".
I believe that the easiest solution is for all those unfamiliar with the site to familiarize themselves with it by reading some questions and answers. posted by oneirodynia at 5:42 PM on March 5, 2007
anildash: "Okay, the green is ugly. There, I said it. :)"
So this whole post was based on an entirely subjective opinion. Ah ha. Well, it makes sense. I strongly suspected that the "normal people" you met who were saying they didn't like the look of AskMe "with increasing frequency" were a product of your imagination. Now that that's been confirmed, maybe you'd like to go back and notice that AskMe conforms to every available internet design standard to a T.
Also, someone should probably point out to you that you sound like a tremendous asshole when you say "I do seminars on AskMe, and the look's not performing well in the focus groups." Understand that thusly you have stomped on civility in three ways: first, you've been pretentious, claiming some sort of authority over the people who provide the service of AskMe by proxy of your having been "asked to speak about web communities." Second, you've insulted Matt's design, however, backhandedly, which I think everyone agrees is relatively good, even if it isn't to their taste. Third, you've shown that you really have no authority at all when speaking about AskMe by showing a blithe ignorance of the basic problems of the site, which are ongoing and controversial around here, and the chief of which is scalability. "I guess I had presumed that some here were interested in attracting new members, as well?" Do you know anything about AskMe and its administration? It's not meant to be a splinter site, and everyone around here generally agrees that making it one will be awful for it. I guess you missed all of those conversations. posted by koeselitz at 5:42 PM on March 5, 2007 [5 favorites]
Or: a simple "I don't like the green. We should change to white in AskMe." would have sufficed. posted by koeselitz at 5:44 PM on March 5, 2007
THE GREAT ANIL DASH, A-LISTER, HAS SPOKEN posted by keswick at 5:55 PM on March 5, 2007
We're losing sight of the goal here, folks. It's time for some tarrin' and featherin'! posted by languagehat at 5:57 PM on March 5, 2007
Have asavage et al test whether the myth that "black-on-white is more professional" is busted, plausible, or confirmed. posted by CKmtl at 5:58 PM on March 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
Agreeing with loquacious -- changing the colors would dliute the brand identity of the site. This is not just another bland black-on-white site.
From anil: "... I find people who are unfamiliar with the site questioning the legitimacy of AskMe, and of the answers therein, because the default green/yellow color scheme doesn't look 'professional'"
I'm waiting to hear who these people are and on what basis I can judge their opinion. Everybody's got an opinion. How do I know these are worth paying attention to? posted by Robert Angelo at 6:04 PM on March 5, 2007
I suppose koeselitz's post is as good as any to do a little dissection on to show a few of the errors (in both logic and rhetoric) that are plaguing this thread in particular. I'm not going to do the "quote, rebut, repeat" format because it's subjectively insufferable.
Anil's admission that he thinks the green is ugly is not mutually exclusive with his assertion that these hypothetical "normal people" exist. This is also not about web design standards, it's about web design which despite its name is neither synonymous nor strictly a super- or subset of the other.
Additionally, (and I could say "you sound like a ... et cetera" here), Anil is a respected member of the community with a well-known (and fairly public) background and as such, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. While it might make your counterargument easier to assert that he has no data to back up his claim, that doesn't make an argument against the point he's attempting to convey, it merely reduces his support, assuming we accept your assertion against someone whose job it is to form focus groups and discuss community websites.
Your "three ways" are in fact aspects or facets of the same basic statement, which is "you don't belong in/understand our community," which is itself a pretty shocking display of ignorance regarding the history of Metafilter and of the so-called blogosphere, but is an even more shocking logical fallacy in its implication that you do (this ignores the frankly pathetic invocation of mathowie as authority). I'll reiterate that arguments against this can't hold to potentially subjective preference (e.g. "everyone agrees is relatively good," presupposing "the basic problems of the site"), and that there are perfectly good arguments (a few of which have been voiced in this thread). They aren't yours, though. posted by j.edwards at 6:05 PM on March 5, 2007
the green is "ugly", purple site man? posted by judith at 6:09 PM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
If we change it to look more professional, we'll get even more "say, do you think this festering gunshot wound is serious?" type questions. While there are some professionals answering questions, we don't make our profession out of AskMe. Well, except for jessamyn and mathowie, but they don't answer festering gunshot questions. posted by macadamiaranch at 6:10 PM on March 5, 2007
These people accept the legitimacy of black-on-white websites, and of the answers therein, without question? Give me their email addresses, I think their bank needs to verify their credit card numbers! posted by nowonmai at 6:10 PM on March 5, 2007
Let me just say that I take the opinions and observations of outsiders seriously, because I'm so far into this beast of a site that they often have completely fresh perspectives on things I've never thought about. Towards that, I've gotten two major world-changing bits of feedback from outsiders (random people on the street, family, people doing work for me like lawyers and accountants). They're all sharing opinions of their first time seeing the site, which many of us have long forgotten.
1. the site is a bunch of weird colors, chunky fonts, and wall-to-wall text.
2. People don't know how to get to the comments. Think about it, it's a tiny 10px line below a paragraph, just a small "68 comments" link. For the size of the entire page, those little links are hard to find for someone seeing the site for the first time.
I've long considered doing something to make the site easier to read and hopefully, more polished looking. I always loved Eris' design here, but it lacked a little personality and was too clean.
I will probably eventually redo the "plain" theme to be a bit nicer looking and maybe someday that'll be the default, though of course, everyone with the existing design could keep the colors via the preferences. posted by mathowie at 6:10 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Not to distract from the ongoing efforts to tear anildash a new arsehole ("Bob" knows I'm up for that, should the conversation continue to move in certain directions), but where exactly are we getting the idea that he's running focus groups on what ask.metafilter looks like?
Or is that something I'd have to care about a-listers to know about? posted by Jimbob at 6:13 PM on March 5, 2007
Stupid feature request, stupid reason for asking for it. posted by interrobang at 6:13 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Stupid feature request, stupid reason for asking for it.
posted by interrobang
I will probably eventually redo the "plain" theme to be a bit nicer looking and maybe someday that'll be the default...
posted by mathowie
And yet his wish is granted. posted by justgary at 6:16 PM on March 5, 2007
The white background of Livejournal and Vox has attracted the internet's most professional posts about mascara and emo.
"But now that AskMeFi is getting national and international recognition, it might be time to make it mildly more traditional to appeal to a larger audience."
Don't think of it as selling out— the label just wants a few more singles before they release the record, and it's not working for the target demos, dudes. posted by klangklangston at 6:18 PM on March 5, 2007 [4 favorites]
I'd love -- love -- for every new user to have to go through a "Why do you call it 'the green' when it's white?" phase. It'd be just as much fun as "What does '.' mean?". Ohhh, yeah, good times. posted by mendel at 6:23 PM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
You're a bunch of status quo minded twats. posted by Burhanistan at 6:24 PM on March 5, 2007
Green is my favorite color. Can we make the rest of the site green too? posted by mullacc at 6:26 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
At the risk of having everyone call down fire on me, I agree with Anil. Kinda.
The green shades bother me. They seem sickly. I wish there was more blue in them.
But it's the colors that make MeFi distinctive. I'm not a big fan of white backgrounds (especially since the rise of the LCD has opened the door to dark backgrounds), but I understand the reasoning. Still, the colored backgrounds themselves are part of the brand imaging.
But one thing that annoys me even more is how... old the design is. It feels dated, and I think part of the UI problems mathowie mentioned (e.g. where do you comment?) stem from a collision between the current c.2000 UI and 2007 user expectations. (The irony, of course, is that it's Anil's baby that may be causing some of these design expectation problems.)
I like what Matt is hinting he's going to do. I also like Jessamyn talking about a style switcher. But what if we went one step further -- a unified, semantic structure and the ability for us to upload our own stylesheets into our own profile? I'd love to do my own stylesheet. We already have some flexibility with fonts etc., but why not just give us the run of the place style-wise?
we have ~49671 members, a bunch of which probably don't even exist, a fraction of which are regular readers.
I remember the debates about "opening the floodgates" before the new user signups (the 17 & 18k+), and I recall a lot of people were leery about all teh n00bs.
Then they came in and all was well, for the most part; I was one of them.
But as for "attracting" new members? Who cares. The ones that really appreciate what we have here will fork over a five dollar DO-nation, and join us. The rest can do what they please. posted by exlotuseater at 6:31 PM on March 5, 2007
dw: Anil's baby is pretty much old and busted compared to Wordpress, tbqh. posted by keswick at 6:35 PM on March 5, 2007
I think both the background and the text should be white. Maybe that'll keep people from bitching about how rapidly questions scroll off the front page. posted by the_bone at 6:42 PM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
Aaand we're on to mentioning the a-list, using "that's stupid" as an argument, non-sequitirs about "Britanny Spears" and bashing my day job. You guys are right -- the existing color scheme's way better! And to think I wasted all that time studying propositional calculus. posted by anildash at 6:44 PM on March 5, 2007
Actually, this is a great idea. It really got me thinking.
1. The Financial Times should be printed on regular white newsprint. No more of that weird salmon-colored paper. People unfamiliar with the paper have told me that they question its legitimacy. And anyway, is it appropriate for a bastion of the capitalist bourgeoisie to appear vaguely. . .pink? I'm just saying, is all.
2. There should be no more yellow pages/white pages divide. All pages should be white.
3. The "purple pill", the "little, yellow, different" pills--no, no, no. All pills should be white.
Seriously, consider these three points. First, the legitimacy of AskMe comes overwhelmingly from its content, not its appearance (beyond a certain minimal level of design competence, which it exceeds). Second, as others have pointed out, the color itself provides valuable brand differentiation, if you want to put it marketing terms. Or, if you don't, the odd colors just gives it memorability and distinctiveness. This itself helps increase legitimacy, because to the extent that people remember getting good answers here, they will trust it again in the future. Third, it strikes me as especially odd that, when traffic has been increasing rapidly, this increase would be cited as a reason for changing a feature so as to shore up its legitimacy. Evidently that color has not proved to be an obstacle so far; why would it be now?
Um, that said, the green is pretty damn ugly. posted by chinston at 6:46 PM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
A ton of what determines whether a website's design is how well it uses the conventions users are accustomed to to tell them what they're looking it. Just like, if you watch old movies, scenes and dialog and music and other elements that were moving and affecting to audiences of their time seem utterly stilted or labored or cheesy to viewers today.
People here are accustomed to MeFi's style in a way the users Anil is talking about aren't.
2. People don't know how to get to the comments. Think about it, it's a tiny 10px line below a paragraph, just a small "68 comments" link. For the size of the entire page, those little links are hard to find for someone seeing the site for the first time.
For a non-member, the other links on that line (username, categories) are also probably just noise, and better not linked on the front page. Links in the body of a question on the front page are also probably confusing. (They confuse me for a second, sometimes. And I think according to some Internet test I once took, I'm only 95% dumb. (The other 5% is cat.))
dw: Anil's baby is pretty much old and busted compared to Wordpress, tbqh.
Not really. Lots of "Horses for courses" going on -- WP for personal sites, MT for larger corporate sites. (Based on my experience with MU, it makes more sense to use MT for multi-blog installs.)
Also, it's really easy to knock over a WordPress site, thanks to the pain that is PHP4 and poorly configured installations of mySQL. MT has its problems, too -- it really doesn't scale well when you get into thousands of posts.
Both have security holes you can drive a truck through.
That said, I ended up with an MT license and stuck with it. I may be moving to WP soon (just because I need a fresh start on the personal blog), but MT has done me fine, even with the licensing BS of a few years ago. posted by dw at 7:08 PM on March 5, 2007
I'd missed some questions up-thread. "Really, how many people are we talking about here?" I'm basing my assessment on probably a dozen people I've talked to in various conversations and at different events, largely in follow-up to my post about Ask Me vs. Google Answers.
And Keswick, it's been a few years that you've tried to shit on nearly every conversation I've tried to participate in on the site. You should revisit one of your earlier threads. (I was gonna take a cut at klangklangston's "selling out" lunacy, but he's still in college, and at that age you can still see things in such clarity. God bless ya.)
Back on topic, I was mostly kidding about the "green is ugly" thing -- if that were my only objection, I wouldn't care because I already have my preferences set to show the site in black & white. I'm actually quite surprised to see people so unwilling to welcome new members.
dw touches on the larger point -- MeFi's design doesn't speak to the sophistication of its content or community, current conversation notwithstanding. What changes *would* be acceptable to make the site more approachable, even if only to current users? posted by anildash at 7:11 PM on March 5, 2007
Aaand we're on to mentioning the a-list, using "that's stupid" as an argument, non-sequitirs about "Britanny Spears" and bashing my day job.
And you misspelled "sequitur" and "Britney". And your idea is stupid, and the only reason it's being taken seriously is because you're friends with Matt Haughey. posted by interrobang at 7:12 PM on March 5, 2007 [10 favorites]
anildash, do you not see how the original framing of your argument looked? People are said to measure the legitimacy of the site by its colour?!!? W.T.F.?!
There was no need for the (few) personal attacks to be sure but you have been given the impression that you weren't particularly bothered with furthering your argument and I sense that you and those older-but-usually-silent-member supporters were just serving up luke warm fodder in something of a premeditated way. This feels planned. #1, what say you? posted by peacay at 7:14 PM on March 5, 2007
Goddamn coloristas.
Yeah. This yet another attept by whitey to keep us down. posted by jonmc at 7:15 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Some of the white background schemes in the aforementioned Mefi redesign contest look pretty sweet. If we switched to a white background but made the links blue/green/gray instead of yellow throughout, our shorthand lingo would still make sense, and each section would still be distinct.
On the other hand, I hate n00bs.
(Yes, I'm filled with self-loathing.) posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:16 PM on March 5, 2007
"(I was gonna take a cut at klangklangston's "selling out" lunacy, but he's still in college, and at that age you can still see things in such clarity. God bless ya.)"
You're free to give it your best shot, considering that it was offhand snark. I'd, in fact, love to see you try.
But hey, you've got a goatee, and that gives your opinions such gravitas, god bless ya. posted by klangklangston at 7:19 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
(Oh, and since I failed to preview, I'd like to mention that I supported some of those redesign ideas. But don't listen to me, I'm just in college.) posted by klangklangston at 7:20 PM on March 5, 2007
This seems like a lovely time for a rant with only the most tenuous relation to the subject at hand!
Where have people gotten this idea that dark-on-white text is "more readable?" (I'll ignore the "more professional," which is frankly just silly — as pointed out upthread, any color scheme can look professional in competent hands, even the FT's pink.) It's contradicted by the data (and this other study, where the conclusion is called "surprising"). Yet web usability "gurus" persist in decrying light-on-dark color schemes (like those of MeFi, MeTa, and AskMe). Usually we get to hear about how we should do it that way "because that's how books are printed." Nota bene, web usability gurus: books do not glow. Looking at a matte white surface is nowhere near as unpleasant as looking directly into a white light for hours at a time. And paper is white due not to the extensive usability research of the ancient Egyptians and Chinese but because it's a hell of a lot easier to make a dark mark on a white surface than vice versa when using animal and vegetable dyes.
Bright-white backgrounds on websites can be fine — they work well enough for functionality-centric sites like Google, Flickr, and the like — but they're awful for sustained reading.
So sure, modernize the layout, make the shade of green a little more subdued if you think it will help address the terrible dearth of web-savvy individuals on MetaFilter, but please don't make it white. Maybe I'm a reactionary who spent too many of his formative years looking at DOS and bash prompts, but I find this one of the most readable sites on the net. posted by IshmaelGraves at 7:28 PM on March 5, 2007 [14 favorites]
VOTE 'SKINS' ON MEFI BALLOT 13786! posted by blue_beetle at 7:28 PM on March 5, 2007
I sense that you and those older-but-usually-silent-member supporters were just serving up luke warm fodder
I thought all the cool kids used RSS feed readers anyway. Who gives a crap about the color of the site the content actually resides on? posted by Dave Faris at 7:30 PM on March 5, 2007
The white background of Livejournal and Vox has attracted the internet's most professional posts about mascara and emo.
I fucking hate it when people post about how they just did a spit-take all over their fucking monitor, like I should give two shakes of my skinny ass, but christ-on-a-speedboat, my monitor be wet. Thanks, klang!
And your idea is stupid, and the only reason it's being taken seriously is because you're friends with Matt Haughey.
I love to disagree with interrobang, but it gets pretty hard when he's right. posted by Kwine at 7:32 PM on March 5, 2007
Anildash writes, in a pompously self-serving tone, "And to think I wasted all that time studying propositional calculus."
In that case, Anil, I'll put on my top hat, monocle and lab coat the next time I tell you you've got a bad idea. posted by boo_radley at 7:35 PM on March 5, 2007 [4 favorites]
Fact is, we want more visitors, who might eventually become members, who might eventually contribute ...
What do you mean we, white-background man?
And if MetaFilter defaults to a white background for new users and those not logged in, what do you suppose will happen when those new users log in? We'll see a never-ending stream of questions (probably on AskMe, of course) wondering why the site has unprofessional-looking colored backgrounds all of a sudden. Do we want that? On preview, I see that somebody does want that, so I'll just say: I don't want it.
I notice that the user numbers have disappeared. It's starting! posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:36 PM on March 5, 2007
And you misspelled "sequitur" and "Britney". And your idea is stupid, and the only reason it's being taken seriously is because you're friends with Matt Haughey.
The misspelling of Britney was a quote. And yes, my latin spelling is atrocious, I'm sure. I hadn't mentioned that I'm friends with Matt, so if people are reading that into my suggestion, that's their prerogative -- it'd be relevant if I'd somehow made that part of my argument. I'd submit that some of the people who are taking the idea seriously are doing so because I do know a little bit about this kind of thing, and because I've been a member of this community longer than, well, all of you. Which means I've seen what it takes to attract new people to the site, including yourselves. posted by anildash at 7:36 PM on March 5, 2007
And now they're back. I'm going to bed. posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:37 PM on March 5, 2007
Sweet Jesus on a rubber crutch, for the love of god Matt please don't sell out to those bastards. posted by Mitheral at 7:37 PM on March 5, 2007
anil, go invent the permalink or something. posted by quonsar at 7:37 PM on March 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
permalink 2.0 posted by quonsar at 7:39 PM on March 5, 2007
posted by anildashI'd submit that some of the people who are taking the idea seriously are doing so because I do know a little bit about this kind of thing, and because I've been a member of this community longer than, well, all of you. Which means I've seen what it takes to attract new people to the site, including yourselves.
Did your membership come with free pomposity, or did you develop that all on your own, you special little snowflake? posted by fandango_matt at 7:42 PM on March 5, 2007 [5 favorites]
Don't bust anil's balls so much. He's just a n00b is all. posted by jonmc at 7:43 PM on March 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
Aaand we're on to mentioning the a-list
posted by anildash
and because I've been a member of this community longer than, well, all of you. Which means I've seen what it takes to attract new people to the site, including yourselves.
posted by anildash posted by justgary at 7:44 PM on March 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
(gary, look at my usernumber. I was making with a little levity) posted by jonmc at 7:46 PM on March 5, 2007
Hey, I'm going down to Opa Locka next weekend for a reunion of the Brigada 9266; a CIA guy there wants to talk to us about maybe joining them down there in the fight contra las Coloristas.
This may be our big chance. No temais una muerte gloriosa: to die for MeFi is to live! posted by breezeway at 7:46 PM on March 5, 2007
(gary, look at my usernumber. I was making with a little levity)
Sorry Jon, wasn't referring to your statement, just the two I quoted. posted by justgary at 7:50 PM on March 5, 2007
Hey, is it true that Anil Dash invented the internet? posted by Dave Faris at 7:53 PM on March 5, 2007
I've been a member of this community longer than, well, all of you.
Bite me.
I'm not listening to what you're saying because you're being completely arrogant about the whole thing.
Sure, you've been a member here longer than I have. But the last comment you posted was a year ago, the last post more than six years ago.
Maybe if you were less pompous and more active in the site, and refrained from exercising a "holier than thou" attitude towards the community--especially newer members like myself--I might take your opinion seriously. posted by CitrusFreak12 at 7:54 PM on March 5, 2007 [5 favorites]
I'd submit that some of the people who are taking the idea seriously are doing so because I do know a little bit about this kind of thing, and because I've been a member of this community longer than, well, all of you. Which means I've seen what it takes to attract new people to the site, including yourselves.
You've been a member of the site, maybe. But I doubt you've been a member of the community, because if you were, you would have known that a statement like that will not end well. posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:55 PM on March 5, 2007 [7 favorites]
I guess this is as good a place as any to inquire about that ol' redesign contest. Some of those look pretty snazzy. posted by puke & cry at 7:56 PM on March 5, 2007
posted by Dave FarisHey, is it true that Anil Dash invented the internet?
No, but he was the first to log onto it and announce that since he'd been on it longer than anyone else, that meant he knew what was best for it. posted by fandango_matt at 7:56 PM on March 5, 2007
"I'd submit that some of the people who are taking the idea seriously are doing so because I do know a little bit about this kind of thing, and because I've been a member of this community longer than, well, all of you. Which means I've seen what it takes to attract new people to the site, including yourselves."
So... they're taking it seriously not because it's a good idea, but because you have a lower user number?
But you're right— most of us $5 noobs did join because the white background made MeFi seem like the professional Type-A go-getter place that we felt we could trust with our venture capital.
Maybe, just maybe, you should have studied the propositional calculus of the heart, anil. Then you'd understand. posted by klangklangston at 7:57 PM on March 5, 2007 [4 favorites]
It's a bit sad that Anil now only posts on the blue when the topic is about him. posted by smackfu at 8:00 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Anil's OK. I once split an order of calamari with him, (at least I think it was calamari, it was some kind of fried stuff that was very dipping intensive, at any rate) and he was friendly and encouraging. But I gotta admit that he's sounding an awful lot like Mr. Hot Shot Elitist Web Dude here. posted by jonmc at 8:00 PM on March 5, 2007
I've been a member of this community longer than, well, all of you. Which means I've seen what it takes to attract new people to the site, including yourselves.
go eat a bucket of cocks. matt can do whatever the hell he wants with the site but if it's just to satisfy the whims of your faux-hipster friends - screw them. get over your pretensious ass and next time you feel like clogging up metatalk with your aggorant wishes, just pick up the MATT phone and call him. He'll shoot you down more graciously than any of us will. posted by Stynxno at 8:00 PM on March 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
I just tabbed over to CNN (and anil's website, out of curiosity) and what IshmaelGraves "rants" about is spot on. I actually felt my eyes strain in anger and protest. posted by CKmtl at 8:02 PM on March 5, 2007
I've been a member of this community longer than, well, all of you.
Condescension is key when trying to get your idea across.
Condescension is key when trying to get your idea across.
Indeed. In order to best convince your audience of an idea, make sure you alienate them as well. Works like a charm. posted by CitrusFreak12 at 8:08 PM on March 5, 2007
But I gotta admit that he's sounding an awful lot like Mr. Hot Shot Elitist Web Dude here.
Eh, Jon, you're right. But it seemed like half the responses were personal attacks, so I figured I'd try to go along with the flow and be a dick myself, but that's not working either. Sorry for that. :)
I find it fascinating that after all these years, MeFi still has people who can get this upset about somebody unsuccessfully suggesting a color change that wouldn't even necessarily affect people who are already members of the site.
As for my participation, I am definitely much more a member of AskMe than of the rest of the site, no question. Somehow (my fault, at least largely) this has become a referendum on me. So nevermind. If anybody's willing to do usability tests of one of the redesign contest winners vs. the current AskMe design. I'll chip in $100 to help pay for the tests. posted by anildash at 8:09 PM on March 5, 2007
so I figured I'd try to go along with the flow and be a dick myself,
That never works, take it from me. posted by jonmc at 8:10 PM on March 5, 2007
And sorry to everybody else I took a shot at in the thread -- I should know better than to be thin-skinned when in MetaTalk. Does it make my apology less sincere if I mention this place is a machismo-filled boyzone? posted by anildash at 8:10 PM on March 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
Anil is basically arguing that Metafilter should be designed in a way analogous to a screen-test, like a Hollywood blockbuster. Anil, in his presentations, has been screen-testing Metafilter, and his audience has found it wanting. Maybe they could take it a step further and suggest new areas of the site for mathowie to add?
All kidding aside, I think the idea is really, really bad. It's stooping to the culture of commercialism, and polling, and appealing to the lowest common denominator.
Metafilter has a personality. It's a unique place. To change it because some nitwits who attended Anil Dash's presentations didn't think the green was "professional" is just ... vulgar. posted by jayder at 8:13 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by anildashAs for my participation, I am definitely much more a member of AskMe than of the rest of the site, no question.
Then you should have been the first to grasp what almost everyone else here understands: People do not participate here to attract new users, and that fact you missed this simple fact speaks volumes about the experience and superiority you're trumpeting from your ass. posted by fandango_matt at 8:15 PM on March 5, 2007 [9 favorites]
Well, now that that's settled, I had a hero tonight called The Animal: chicken cutlet, provolone, bacon, onion rings and brown gravy. It was delicious, but now I have heartburn keeping me awake. Entertain me. posted by jonmc at 8:15 PM on March 5, 2007
*hits gong* posted by jonmc at 8:18 PM on March 5, 2007
fandango_matt is dead on. posted by interrobang at 8:18 PM on March 5, 2007
jonmc, I have been eating hero sandwiches longer than you, which qualifies me to inform you the sandwich you claim to have enjoyed would attract more diners if it was served on a paper plate instead of being wrapped in tinfoil. posted by fandango_matt at 8:20 PM on March 5, 2007 [6 favorites]
You suggested a change based on a ludicrous proposition. People rightly savaged the argument.......and eventually you. So don't walk off thinking that boyzone rejected a colour change. It rejected a completely stupid argument.
Now go along and write it all up with some considered reasoning and post it to your site. You know it will get posted here and a proper debate can take place. But don't miscontextualize this thread. Your original argument was void of substance.
For a weblog evangelist you really need to go to the jessamyn school of P.R. posted by peacay at 8:20 PM on March 5, 2007
Enough. Anil did his thing, got stomped like Ted Nugent at a ALF rally, and then he apologized. All that's left is to goof around until Matt closes the thread. posted by jonmc at 8:22 PM on March 5, 2007
For the record, Boyzone sucked. posted by dw at 8:24 PM on March 5, 2007
"I'd submit that some of the people who are taking the idea seriously are doing so because I do know a little bit about this kind of thing, and because I've been a member of this community longer than, well, all of you. Which means I've seen what it takes to attract new people to the site, including yourselves."
(Some of the people are taking q seriously) = p
(AskMe should default to a white background.) = q
(I do know a little bit about this kind of thing) = r
(I've been a member of this community longer than, well, all of you.) = s
(I've seen what it takes to attract new people to the site, including yourselves.) = t
The logical form is
1) (r&s) -> (p&t)
I think this entailment is sound, and r and s are perhaps true, jonmc and a few others excepted. What anil wants is q; can we derive q even if we charitably grant the truth of r and s? We can derive p by &elimination; does p entail q? Doesn't seem like it; people take all sorts of crazy ideas seriously around here. We can derive t by &elimination also; does t entail q? Surely not, unless it can be shown that those of us who have been attracted to the site were so attracted in spite of the green rather than because of it. The question is, can anil show that?
/not-to-be-taken-seriously-propositional calculus-filter posted by Kwine at 8:25 PM on March 5, 2007
[image of elephant pissing on anildash] posted by interrobang at 8:26 PM on March 5, 2007
Everyone's missing a pretty key element here: doing something about outsiders seeing the site for the first time and being turned off isn't about attracting more members.
If I could, I would turn off signups for a long time, though I know we miss out on a few great people out of the random hordes that flow in.
What I'm reading in anil's original request, and what I hear from family members and other people seeing the site for the first time is that it looks unprofessional and I don't want to remedy that to make them join, I want to remedy that so we don't give off that first impression.
The info in Ask MeFi is really amazing stuff and I'd love it if more people read it (lord knows we can't handle more questions or more answers from new members). It's a seriously useful resource and I'd love to make sure it looks the part.
And again, on the redesign, I tried out a modified version of fandango_matt's winning design but given some of the limits of CSS and the way markup has to work coming out of the coldfusion engine behind the site, it came out quite a bit more bland than the mockups and I eventually scraped it. There are elements in each of the top designs that could someday be worked into redo of the plain theme though.
In the future, having a standard markup and CSS style switcher/uploader/sharing thing would be one way to go. I've seen it done on other related community sites and it can get unwieldy pretty quickly (a drop down with 250 template choices can suck), I think we can come up with some sort of community gallery ranking the most popular and float the best that way. posted by mathowie at 8:28 PM on March 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
[image of ceilinganil] posted by Jimbob at 8:29 PM on March 5, 2007
I've been a member of this community longer than, well, all of you.
You joined on February 23, 2000, yet only have 12 FPP and 574 comments. I joined two years after you but have 63 FPP and 2,190 comments. By your twisted logic I should have more 'authority' on this than you.
You, sir, are a twit.
Regarding the colors, I find the white text on Blue, Gray, and Green very easy to read. And since this site has always been about reading and commenting, I do not think making the site harder to read because some of your buddies don't think a green background is Web 2.0 enough is a good reason.
It is Matt's site and he can do what he pleases, but I would suggest to him to keep in mind that Ask Metafilter is only valuable because of the content users create there. Ask yourself what would be worse: losing members who answer questions or random non-members who don't think the site looks professional? posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 8:29 PM on March 5, 2007 [4 favorites]
People do not participate here to attract new users
Yeah. But it's totally within Matt's rights to want to attract new users. And press. And kudos for design. Really, why is the site so underappreciated out there? We post great links and have great discussions in AskMe, so why isn't it more well known?
I think this is like that golden era in high school where we loved obscure bands and then hated it when other people discovered our really cool bands and made them popular. It's
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posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:34 PM on March 5, 2007 [1 favorite]