Overmoderation.

September 12, 2007 1:34 AM

Hi there, mods. Yes, you. Mathowie, jessamyn and cortex. Please stop closing MeTa threads so early and so often. I think you're forgetting the "community" part.

No, seriously. It's getting a little heavy handed in my opinion. We don't always need baby sitters. Sometimes we just need to talk about shit. Sometimes we might just need to say goodbye to someone who was exiting gracefully. Sometimes that might get ugly or unpleasant, or it can be surprisingly civil.

But all in all? It's part of the process and it seems to work ok - if you allow it to happen.

But I feel you're trying to make things run too smoothly - for your own benefit at the cost of ours.

Please understand that I don't say this to invoke drama, but I have seen this before on a number of sites. If the patterns I've seen hold true you probably run the risk of a massive user exodus if these trends continue.

posted by loquacious to MetaFilter-related at 1:34 AM (609 comments total)

I'm not going to have much time or energy to devote to this thread, but I've made my statement, more or less.

It's not just about today, I've been concerned about this for a few months now, and I've been wanting to say something, so I did.

MetaFilter, please do not put on that leather motorcycle jacket and jump the shark into that good night.

I really hate how "more inside" doesn't parse linebreaks like everything else does. WTF?
posted by loquacious at 1:41 AM on September 12, 2007

posted by loquacious If the patterns I've seen hold true you probably run the risk of a massive user exodus if these trends continue.

We don't want the people who are here for those reasons.
posted by fandango_matt at 1:42 AM on September 12, 2007

We don't want the people who are here for those reasons.

For what reasons? And who the fuck are you to speak for everyone, including me? Christ, what an...
posted by loquacious at 1:44 AM on September 12, 2007

Hi there, members. Yes, you. Please stop shitting all over the place and then smearing it on the walls and then getting upset when you're called on it. I think you're forgetting the "act somewhat mature" part.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:44 AM on September 12, 2007

posted by loquacious For what reasons?

The people whose reason is they "just need to talk about shit...that might get ugly or unpleasant." We don't want them here. If they leave because threads are being closed early, well, good riddance.

And who the fuck are you to speak for everyone, including me? Christ, what an...

Aw, who needs a hug? Come here, you big crazy freak!
posted by fandango_matt at 1:59 AM on September 12, 2007

On the one hand, I agree with loquacious and have also been noticing this for a while. It is a little jarring sometimes. But on the other hand I had a pointlessly bitchy comment to leave in a thread that was closed today that I couldn't because ... it was closed. So the system probably works.
posted by shelleycat at 2:09 AM on September 12, 2007

I should probably make a full metatalk post about this, but I'd just like to announce that I don't really have time to keep participating in metafilter anymore.

As a result I will be falling behind in both my work and sleep.
posted by aubilenon at 2:15 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

I agree with shelleycat.

Okay, close this thread up.
posted by liquorice at 2:34 AM on September 12, 2007

I know we can all do better about striking the right balance even here in the gray, but I think the fact that Burhanistan's departure is being brought up in other threads now indicates that we want to chat about it. That's not a terribly bad variety of MeTa post, is it? It didn't seem to be a flameout, just a piece of chatter... not a good thing to encourage, but worthy of virtual deletion; no comments allowed at all? Unpleasant.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:45 AM on September 12, 2007

But on the other hand I had a pointlessly bitchy comment to leave in a thread that was closed today that I couldn't because ... it was closed. So the system probably works.

Same here. In the Heywood Mogroot or Burhnistan threads, I was attempted to leave a one line snark:

Please unsubscribe me from this list.

Hearking the old days of discussion list-servs when people would routinely flame out and announce dramatically that they had washed their hands of the group. Few MeFites are probably old enough to get the reference, and even fewer would find it funny.

So really, a lot of these early MeTa closures save me from making an utter jackass of myself.

Oh, wait.
posted by psmealey at 3:11 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

this thread is now closed






















































.
posted by seanyboy at 3:12 AM on September 12, 2007

And if you don't do what i want, I'M LEAVING!
posted by Roger Dodger at 4:07 AM on September 12, 2007

That was good, seanyboy, except that it's "This thread is closed to new comments"

Mods are damned if they do, damned if they don't. A few months ago, they were getting reamed for letting theads turn into smelly compost.

I say, GETOUTMOAR.
posted by lysdexic at 4:10 AM on September 12, 2007

I thought MeTa was meant to act as a valve for ventations. On the other hand, we don't want to encourage everyone who takes a week off to post about it. I mean, if you know someone well enough to wish them a fond farewell, you should have another channel by which to contact them other than MetaTalk, right?
posted by Eideteker at 4:14 AM on September 12, 2007

...a massive user exodus if these trends continue.

If so, I hope every one of them posts a metatalk farewell first. Epitaphilter.

u wownt hav dikniksins suckpoppet 2 kik a rownd kthxbye krewl wrld!!!

Present each with the traditional micturating pachyderm and cheese basket, ban that member's IP address and paypal account and mom, close the thread, and get on with things.
posted by pracowity at 4:19 AM on September 12, 2007

So really, a lot of these early MeTa closures save me from making an utter jackass of myself.

psmealey, I've yet to see you make an utter jackass of yourself, and somehow I don't think you would've even if said threads had remained open. Now loquacious, on the other hand...

But seriously, I think loq's got a point. And I agree that Burhanistan's perfectly gracious sayonara post here at MeTa probably should've stayed open. I can't see what the harm would've been, aside from, y'know, taking up too much of the internet.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:28 AM on September 12, 2007

Well, flapjax at midnite, Burhanistan's farewell followed hard upon Heywood Mogroot's more contentious kiss-off and likely would have served as a sort of referendum for the latter, at least as much as a polite goodbye. Another one of those damned context things, I guess.
posted by cgc373 at 4:37 AM on September 12, 2007

If the patterns I've seen hold true you probably run the risk of a massive user exodus if these trends continue.

I was reading the original September 11 thread yesterday and was struck by how many names I didn't recognize. I understand that you're talking about a larger, more sudden phenomenon, but 'Someone leaves town, someone comes to town', is the way of most web communities.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:40 AM on September 12, 2007

If the patterns I've seen hold true you probably run the risk of a massive user exodus if these trends continue.

I got shotgun and dips on the cherry coke!

Seriously, I counted up and tallied the closed Metatalk threads in the last month. Then I accidently close the app I was using to tally, losing all the text and links so take this for what it's worth to ya

There have been about 10 closed threads since the beginning of September. Only one struck me as WTF (just cause no reason given, though probably the thread had run its course), the rest were people being bitchy, complaining about a deletion (the mod responded ), browser problems or opening another thread about a still open thread.

This stuff seems to come in waves and as someone pointed out, a few months ago, the mods were bitched at for keeping threads open.

Metafilter is going anywhere, no matter how much you or I think it isn't conforming to the" perfect vision".
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:44 AM on September 12, 2007

These situations should never be discussed so early in the morning. Come on, lets get you all a cup of coffee and we'll come back to it after lunch.
posted by SassHat at 4:46 AM on September 12, 2007

Metafilter: (Not) Going Anywhere
posted by psmealey at 4:46 AM on September 12, 2007

Tangetially-related, but where did tkchrist go? I haven't seen that dude in forever.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 4:47 AM on September 12, 2007

Re: tkchrist, apparently the account is disabled. Dunno why or when, though.
posted by cgc373 at 4:58 AM on September 12, 2007

If the patterns I've seen hold true you probably run the risk of a massive user exodus if these trends continue.

Hold these patterns as long as you can then. I doubt anyone gives a good shit about someone who can't manage to be a member of a community/ accept that not everything is going to go your way when 2 or more people are involved. Community involvement can be very different from you bossing around your cats.

Also, if vaginal sand ever led to pearls (even of wisdom), we'd be steady rolling around here.
posted by yerfatma at 4:58 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

It's completely understandable that they might want to undermine the Lord of the Flies mindset that prevails here in Metatalk. Absolutely nothing good ever comes from yet another pile on - trainwreck - making popcorn - pitchforks and torches - "christ, what an asshole" - hoping for a flameout clusterfuck, despite how perversely entertaining we might find them to be. The mods are really just protecting us from our inner 8-year-olds.
posted by Dave Faris at 5:03 AM on September 12, 2007

Think of poor languagehat, won't you - he must be having facial tics. We haven't had a good juicy "I'm leaving" thread in ever so long, and now two (count 'em, two) were nipped in the bud on the same day. No bloodshed, no threats of hand amputation, no flameouts, no snark.

Why I remember the day when the "I'm leaving" Metatalk threads were a fine art. Am I to believe that after all these years, if I want to royally flame out with fanfare and melodrama, the enmity and scorn of my peers will be denied me? Oh no, sirs, I am not liking that.
posted by madamjujujive at 5:13 AM on September 12, 2007 [16 favorites]

Close 'em early close 'em often.
posted by ND¢ at 5:19 AM on September 12, 2007

Closing is better than deleting forever, in most cases. As far as pre-emptive closing goes, well: sometimes you eat the b'ar, sometimes the b'ar eats you.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:32 AM on September 12, 2007

I support extreme moderation (you probably see my name pop up near stavros' whenever the issue of moderation comes up), but I agree with loq to some degree.

I can see the sense in preemptive avoidance of shitstorms by closing down posts/threads where the shit hasn't hit the fan yet, but is highly likely to. However, it seems to be becoming more and more prevalent, and balance is important. If you try to preemptively stop all shitstorms, you end up cutting out a lot of stuff which might not have become a shitstorm in the first place, and you tip over into "all jungle-gyms have been removed from parks because some kid got hurt on one one day" territory.

If we're going to amp up the moderation, which is what seems to be happening lately, I'd far prefer that the extra effort be placed into culling individual shitty comments and time-outing or perma-banning their makers than closing viable threads to avoid possible shitstorms.

I don't think CJM are guilty of overmoderation, per se, but perhaps of moderating the wrong bits.

And, Burhanistan and Heywood, if you're reading this: I don't feel that the moderation is so extreme that it makes the place not worth visiting, but I don't think you're assholes or idiots for leaving, either. My impression of y'all is that you were decent people, so it's a shame to see y'all leave, but hopefully after a while you'll remember the moderation as "stricter than I'd like" but not "so strict that I'm leaving", and come back.
posted by bugbread at 5:34 AM on September 12, 2007

I think closing threads that are inappropriate to MetaTalk, and which should be discouraged, like one member announcing he's "logging out," is entirely justified.
posted by OmieWise at 5:46 AM on September 12, 2007

What OmieWise said.
posted by mediareport at 5:49 AM on September 12, 2007

Now, see; when I saw the thread this morning I assumed he was asking a question about logging out (maybe he never did it and wanted some pointers on what he would see when he logged back in?) and jumped into the thread all ready to help only to find it had been closed.

Which I found hilarious; so no real loss, but I do wish I had been able to say so in the thread.
posted by yhbc at 5:51 AM on September 12, 2007

To prevent such confusion in the future, maybe we can agree on conventions for flame-out/good-bye threads. All-caps is always a good tip-off, and perhaps the use of the code word "FUCKERS"?
posted by yhbc at 5:53 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites]

Guys, Metafilter and Metatalk haven't been the Wild West in years.

.
posted by konolia at 5:55 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites]

I maintain that there's a difference between moderation and preemption when it comes to userherding on Thee Internet, and that the former is preferable to the latter.
posted by carsonb at 5:57 AM on September 12, 2007

They make me check my pistols before I order whiskey. What kind of a saloon is this?
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:59 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

Also, loq, way to go posting a thread addressing the mods at least 3 hours before they have any right to be awake. Pretty much guaranteed it wouldn't be closed right away.
posted by carsonb at 6:04 AM on September 12, 2007

I've been thinking about making almost this exact same post, and I didn't even know about the Buhristan thing. Something along the lines of. "Hi, this is just a polite request for the mods to please lighten up a bit. Like Congress in times of peace and plenty, you might be over-legislating."

I've tried to stay out of MeTa for a long time now, and drop the tired 'CRUSADER FOR THE PEOPLE' schtick. But lately it has been harder to keep my mouth shut. I hope you guys take loq's advice.

Guys, Metafilter and Metatalk haven't been the Wild West in years.

"How dare you suggest loosening up? Over-moderation is tradition."

Konolia, not to be terribly rude, but I cannot conceive of a worse argument to make.
posted by Ryvar at 6:18 AM on September 12, 2007

The moderation round these parts sucks. Especially that trigger happy young gun Cortex. He just deleted an Askme post of mine and basically re-posted what I wrote as his own.

This town ain't big enough for the both of us, so I'm outta here!!!
















Ok, I'm back.
posted by brautigan at 6:25 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

Welcome back, brautigan! It's good to see you again! It's been so long!

I can't think of anything really funny, so I'm going with obvious. Anybody with better suggestions for my miserly welcome wagon efforts, please pipe up. brautigan deserves our finest work, here.
posted by cgc373 at 6:28 AM on September 12, 2007

I'm not going to have much time or energy to devote to this thread

Why don't you wait until you have time and energy to deal with shit before you stir it up? Don't you think it's just a tad uncivil to stick your head in the door, holler "You suck and your deletions smell," and then run for the hills?

This callout is a waste of time, but it does give me a chance to say "Come back, Burhanistan!"




OK, you can close the thread now.
posted by languagehat at 6:31 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites]

The mods won't close this for ages for fear of confirming the allegations. Unless they close it after this post. Comic timing is what good moderation is all about after all.
posted by brautigan at 6:35 AM on September 12, 2007

Even though the tone of my post is a bit petulant, I'm glad other users can see my point and take it seriously.

Eideteker wrote: I mean, if you know someone well enough to wish them a fond farewell, you should have another channel by which to contact them other than MetaTalk, right?

Actually, I don't. Burhanistan seems to have wiped all of his contact info. Lesson learned - I should be more proactive about making contacts.

Since I don't have another venue: I'm going to miss Burhanistan's particular brand of exuberance, joy and irreverance. Fare thee well, weirdo. My email is in plaintext in my profile for members and nonmembers alike.

fandango_matt wrote: The people whose reason is they "just need to talk about shit...that might get ugly or unpleasant." We don't want them here. If they leave because threads are being closed early, well, good riddance.

It's not so simple and cut and dry as that. The people I'm talking about are people like Ryvar, quonsar - and, well, if I may wax egotisitical - myself, for easy examples. Or MiguelCaradaso, or others.

We've either lost or driven away a lot of damn good folks and it pisses me off. I realize some have left for personal reasons, be it boredom or real life obligations - but many have also left because of conflicts with moderation, or conflicts with users themselves.

Aw, who needs a hug? Come here, you big crazy freak!

Keep your befouled ape-mitts offa me! BAD TOUCH!
posted by loquacious at 6:36 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

Alvy wrote: "I was reading the original September 11 thread yesterday and was struck by how many names I didn't recognize."

I was looking through the Kaycee Nicole thread about a week ago, and I had the same sensation. Even worse was the names I did recognize, only to realize that we haven't heard from them in years (and I hadn't even remembered to miss them.)

Of course, I have the opposite sensation when I read newer threads: I'm struck by how many of the names I DO recognize, over and over again. We may have tens of thousands of users, but sometimes it seems like most threads are the same fifty people posting again and again.
posted by Ian A.T. at 6:40 AM on September 12, 2007

Oh and also...

Carsonb wrote: Also, loq, way to go posting a thread addressing the mods at least 3 hours before they have any right to be awake. Pretty much guaranteed it wouldn't be closed right away.

It wasn't intentional. At least in this instance, I'm not that clever, just a night owl.

And the esteemed languagehat wrote: Why don't you wait until you have time and energy to deal with shit before you stir it up? Don't you think it's just a tad uncivil to stick your head in the door, holler "You suck and your deletions smell," and then run for the hills?

Well, first off I didn't say "You suck" or "your deletions smell", you cantekerous old coot.

The warning was to be civil and let people know I probably wouldn't be able to respond to comments until after a brief sleep cycle. I've got a freakin' cold. It sucks, but I usually only get one a year or so.

There wasn't any running for the hills. Sucka, please. Insinuate such specious bullshit ever again and it'll be - good sir - dictionaries, to the death, at dawn.
posted by loquacious at 6:47 AM on September 12, 2007

I can see five posts that were closed in the past several pages of MeTa. Two were "I'm out of here" posts which don't really need to be in MeTa. One was the "ladies it's cool" thread which was a long contentious thread which had wrapped up. One was Optimus Chyme's performance art post and one referred to the post directly below it. MeTa has been busy, very busy.

I'll admit that it's a lot of closures for a few days, but it's also rare to have any "fuck it I'm out of here" threads in MeTa. Those types of threads also rarely serve any decent site purpose. The person who posted them often doesn't come back to say anything else. There's tons of abuse heaped in them which is just karmically bad and makes the whole site here look like a bunch of assholes. And, usually, there's not a real policy point at the center of them that even allow us to learn anything and move forward with some sort of different outlook.

I'm all for "Hey I don't like the way things are going enough so I'm considering leaving, let's take some of these member problems SERIOUSLY" posts and those stay up while we hash things out, but a user who can't even be bothered to put an email address in his profile who just posts "I'm leaving" and doesn't say why, I don't know what to do with that.

My guess is it's just the pendulum preparing to swing back the other way. There's always a bit of ebb and flow to how moderation happens here with pushback at both ends if it gets too loose or too strict.
posted by jessamyn at 6:52 AM on September 12, 2007

...you probably run the risk of a massive user exodus if these trends continue.

Well screw those massive users anyway, I haven't the pixels to render them properly!
posted by Mister_A at 6:54 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

The fact is that we can't really know why people leave or join the site. Anger and sadness over departures (announced or not) really can't reasonably laid at the feet of the mods, even if one or two people publicly identify moderation as the reason their leaving. In a group this size there are almost certainly people who leave because they feel like there isn't active enough moderation.

But this is precisely the libertarian cop-out: it's always good to keep around enough (gov't/moderator/social) intervention to be able to blame it for things you don't like, so that you don't have to get off your ass and start you own whatever.
posted by OmieWise at 6:57 AM on September 12, 2007

dictionaries, to the death, at dawn.

*hefts Websters Third Internation, Compact OED, ponders*

*waits*
posted by languagehat at 6:58 AM on September 12, 2007

*realizes he just posted "Websters Third Internation," bashes self with oversized lexicon*
posted by languagehat at 6:59 AM on September 12, 2007 [5 favorites]

Can I have their rooms, now that they've gone? Living in the back yard is getting old, and I think there are wolves stalking me.
posted by aramaic at 7:03 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

*limberly and deftly swings stacked, unexpurgated 20-volume 2nd edition OED on an axe handle*

I know what you're thinking. "Is the complete Second Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary actually twenty volumes, or twenty-three, including the three 'Additions series'? Or is it 24, including the Compact Edition?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is The Complete Oxford English Dictionary, the most pedantically verbose dictionary in the world, and could cleave your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?
posted by loquacious at 7:07 AM on September 12, 2007 [39 favorites]

There were a few closures yesterday, most abruptly the two "I'm leaving mefi" posts, which have never, ever, gone well. This isn't just mods being overprotective, this is mods reacting to 7 years of bad precedent. It's a community, and when one person wants to make a big deal out of their own coming or going, it results in a mess. I really think there is no defending the Burhanistan post. What possible reason should a dramatic exit thread serve aside from a bunch of people mocking him for making it?

Also, Monday we had 10 threads in a single day. If you've seen a few closures in the past few days, consider the ratios of how many posts have shown up here lately.

I understand the feeling that we've been closing a lot of stuff lately or deleting a lot of mefi threads, but it sounds like the two quitting mefi posts seem to have broken the camel's back when I don't think those are examples of overmoderation at all.
posted by mathowie at 7:10 AM on September 12, 2007

it sounds like people aren't getting enough of a chance to hurt eachother's MetaFeelings. you've pissed off the threadshitters by closing the threads.
posted by phaedon at 7:14 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

Apparently my "metatalk goes crazy while school is out" theory doesn't hold up after all.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:17 AM on September 12, 2007

Matt, again, this is the culmination of months of biting my tongue. It's not just today or yesterday, or Heywood and Burhanistan leaving.

They helped catalyze this post, but are far, far from the main reasoning behind it.
posted by loquacious at 7:17 AM on September 12, 2007

Matt, again, this is the culmination of months of biting my tongue. It's not just today or yesterday, or Heywood and Burhanistan leaving.

Can you provide some examples to instances that you think were bad deletions? That might be helpful.
posted by 23skidoo at 7:19 AM on September 12, 2007

phaedon writes "it sounds like people aren't getting enough of a chance to hurt eachother's MetaFeelings. you've pissed off the threadshitters by closing the threads."

Yes, but he's left this thread open so that you can threadshit by accusing anyone who doesn't like the recent closures of being threadshitters.
posted by bugbread at 7:19 AM on September 12, 2007

Sometimes we might just need to say goodbye to someone who was exiting gracefully.

Starting a MetaTalk thread to say goodbye is not exiting gracefully. Add a note and/or means of contact to your userpage. If someone is curious they'll seek out the page and see your note.
posted by iconomy at 7:20 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

Yes, but he's left this thread open so that you can threadshit by accusing anyone who doesn't like the recent closures of being threadshitters.

I'm not implying loq is a threadshitter, and I'm glad he brought this up, because part of me agrees with him. But what the fuck is the point of keeping soft, cuddly "I'm leaving" MetaTalk posts open when mental rapists have been constantly clogging the channels with their second rate snark, minus any intelligence. I mean - isn't that why the Dawkins/Hitchens post was deleted?
posted by phaedon at 7:25 AM on September 12, 2007

Matt, again, this is the culmination of months of biting my tongue.

How you've managed to go on and on as you do all these months while biting your tongue is a wonder. You're an inspiration to us all ;-)
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:25 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

Starting a MetaTalk thread to say goodbye is not exiting gracefully. Add a note and/or means of contact to your userpage. If someone is curious they'll seek out the page and see your note.

But then I won't get the rush of having everyone LOOK AT ME!!!!
posted by ND¢ at 7:27 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

Exactly ;)
posted by iconomy at 7:31 AM on September 12, 2007

90% of the moderation I am aware of is fantastically appropriate.
posted by mzurer at 7:34 AM on September 12, 2007

Y'know, loq, I find myself in agreement with you more often than not by quite a wide margin. But in this case I'm just not seeing the phenomenon you're seeing. Is stuff getting closed more often? Yeah, that's obvious enough. However, it isn't clear that these are bad closures. Pretty much everything I've seen closed lately has been for a legitimate reason: a couple of jokey duplicates, some "please use the thread," and a side order of "the question is answered."

The only purpose leaving such threads open serves is as a pressure release valve for random thread-end crap, and there's already more than enough of that as it stands.

I'm concerned that this is bothering you. You're usually a pretty sharp, perceptive guy with a penchant for going off about the shit that really matters. That makes this all the more baffling, because I fail to perceive what's irking you here, or why.
posted by majick at 7:37 AM on September 12, 2007

Overmoderation is a sign that the mods are bored. Quick, jonson, post some of those incredibly engaging, 200-link, more-inside, 500+comment thread FPP's that they love so much!
posted by tehloki at 7:38 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

I have no beef with the mods; I think that they do a tough job very well. It is true though, as I said last night in another thread, that I will miss Burhanistan, and it is also true that if he hadn't posted that thread then I might not have noticed that he was gone. You might think no harm no foul then, but missing someone is better than having no feeling at all. I guess in the end I don't really have a point here.
*wanders away*
posted by Kwine at 7:40 AM on September 12, 2007

I agree, the fault really lies with jonson in this regard.
posted by mathowie at 7:43 AM on September 12, 2007 [5 favorites]

I think it's time we turned off comments. Or change the $5 fee to $5,000 and make it retroactive.
posted by mattbucher at 7:48 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

majick writes "I'm concerned that this is bothering you. You're usually a pretty sharp, perceptive guy with a penchant for going off about the shit that really matters. That makes this all the more baffling, because I fail to perceive what's irking you here, or why."

I'm not loq, but I'm one of those folks who usually sides with "more moderation", and am agreeing with loq here. I've been wondering why that is, and I think it comes down to:

Most "farewell" threads are "I'm leaving, fuck off and die, I hate you all", so when they're closed, well, that's great. With Burhanistan and Heywood, the posts didn't seem to be that, but were from pretty reasonable posters. The Heywood thread got full of "I'm glad you're leaving, fuck off and die" comments, so I guess closing it was reasonable, but it left an aftertaste that Heywood was the one at fault, instead of all the assholes kicking him in the ass on his way out. So my gut reaction was opposition to the closure because it made the threadshitters seem like the good guys, and the guy saying farewell the bad guy. However, on reflection, that's just my problem in the way I'm perceiving the closure. In reality, it was more simply "this thread is filling with shit, so it's best closed".

So, I guess, on further introspection, I no longer agree with loq. Though I still maintain that there is a problem (in general), but it isn't "excess moderation", but "if you're going to increase moderation, there are better things to moderate".

Kwine writes "It is true though, as I said last night in another thread, that I will miss Burhanistan, and it is also true that if he hadn't posted that thread then I might not have noticed that he was gone."

Really, what happened with Burhanistan was the optimal situation, in a way. He got to say goodbye, so we know he's gone. And the thread got closed up right quick, but not deleted, so nobody got their last kicks in.
posted by bugbread at 7:51 AM on September 12, 2007

Threads are like public art. Everyone has an opinion about it, everyone wants to see what they want to see in it, and everyone wants to talk about it.

And when someone thinks it a piece of public art looks like a toilet, they shit in it.

Conclusion: Don't make public art out of toilets or urinals.
posted by dw at 7:54 AM on September 12, 2007

So my gut reaction was opposition to the closure because it made the threadshitters seem like the good guys, and the guy saying farewell the bad guy.

If you have enough of a prescence on the site that people will miss you, you'll be missed. If not, you won't. As such, farewell threads are completely unnecessary, and often give the impression that the person feels as though Metafilter will cease to exist in their abscence. They're a desperate bid for a little attention (I'd say "one last desperate bid", but the people who post them often come back).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:56 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

Really, what happened with Burhanistan was the optimal situation, in a way. He got to say goodbye, so we know he's gone. And the thread got closed up right quick, but not deleted, so nobody got their last kicks in.

So you're saying we need iamleavingsolongsuckers.metafilter.com?
posted by dw at 7:57 AM on September 12, 2007

It's dangerous to confuse children and angels.
posted by mattbucher at 7:58 AM on September 12, 2007

You might think no harm no foul then, but missing someone is better than having no feeling at all.

Yeah, I hear you. On the other hand, not missing someone unless they pull out a megaphone and holler at you that they're leaving has pretty dire implications for background noise levels. People leave (and join) mefi every day; some folks leave and never come back, some leave for a while; some leave a note in their profile or make a comment tipping their hand, and some just disappear.

There are a lot of folks I miss, but I'm glad as hell that pretty much none of them started a Look At Me thread to announce their departure—I can think of a couple that I hazily recall going pretty okay, but in general it's a nightmare.

Burhan's logging-out post was civil and simple enough in a vacuum, and with Matt's closing it, it stays that way, but it's still a big attention-getter move, which is at pretty direct odds with the idea of gracefully stepping out. Mix in the argument he'd just been having with stavros in another thread and the ridiculous Heywood stunt earlier in the day and it's easy to see it being not just a questionable but a really, genuinely bad idea. No knocks against Burhanistan (or Heywood, for that matter, terrible posting instincts there aside), and they're both welcome back if they feel like it, but there's a difference between stepping away from the site and taking your football and going home.
posted by cortex at 8:01 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

ThePinkSuperhero writes "If you have enough of a prescence on the site that people will miss you, you'll be missed."

That hasn't been my experience. Or, rather, sure, you'll miss them, when you go back and read a year old thread and realize "hey, I haven't seen X in yonks! What happened?"

Honestly, who would you miss on MeFi if they vanished without a word today? The only person I can think of is maybe Mathowie, if he didn't comment in technical questions on MeTa. And, even then, only if the answers weren't supplied by cortex or jessamyn instead.
posted by bugbread at 8:02 AM on September 12, 2007

Well, I'm sorry Burhanistan is gone. I liked him, even though we argued a bit. Do we know that he was chased away by something here, because his post makes it sound like something in his real life demands more of a commitment, and if he sees this, I'd like to wish him well, and hope that everything is okay.

I'm also sad to see Heywood Mogroot go. He was one of the first names I recognized around here. :(

I also noticed the callouts of amberglow and Ethereal Bligh the other day, who both got a bit hot in a discussion that they were both passionate about. Again, these are two posters I respect and who's comments I read carefully. I understand loquacious position here. Burhanistan and Ethereal Bligh in particular often represent minority or alternative viewpoints on very touchy subjects, so it's a shame to have them stifled.

On the subject of moderation though, meh. I'm in favor of the cops policing traffic, but I have to accept that that means I'll get pulled over every once in a while.

If the baseline standard of communication on the internet is what is found in many phpBB bulletin boards or IRC chatrooms, then the moderators should get a Nobel Prize for turning this site into something that most other sites aren't.

If ugliness has to be squashed to keep the site up to snuff, squash away, close the threads, bomb posts from the sky, whatever. I figure they know what to do with their site better than anyone else.

On the subject of flameouts, we need to realize that the people having the flameout take the site and what happens on it more seriously than the people who just fade away, otherwise they wouldn't bother to post their flameout.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:03 AM on September 12, 2007

That hasn't been my experience. Or, rather, sure, you'll miss them, when you go back and read a year old thread and realize "hey, I haven't seen X in yonks! What happened?"

That's the kicker, ain't it? None of us are really as important as we think we are. Another reason a "Goodbye, I Know You'll Miss Me!" thread is a really bad idea.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:03 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites]

Asketh bugbread: "Honestly, who would you miss on MeFi if they vanished without a word today?"

Honestly? You, for one. You heartless bastard you.
posted by davy at 8:06 AM on September 12, 2007

a user who can't even be bothered to put an email address in his profile who just posts "I'm leaving" and doesn't say why, I don't know what to do with that.

i find it interesting that you think you have to do *anything* with that.
posted by quonsar at 8:10 AM on September 12, 2007 [5 favorites]

ThePinkSuperhero writes "That's the kicker, ain't it? None of us are really as important as we think we are. Another reason a 'Goodbye, I Know You'll Miss Me!' thread is a really bad idea."

I don't think the issue is importance, though, really. It's more that the nature of this type of community is that there are a lot of people, and attendance is irregular. You can't really tell when someone's absence is temporary (they're on vacation, they're moving house and have no internet, they're doing overtime at work) or permanent unless one of two things happens: they tell you, or you happen to notice that they've been gone a really long time.

I guess I think of civil goodbye threads (like Burhanistan's) more like saying goodbye to folks when you leave a party: you're not implying that you think the party will end without you. You're just letting people know upfront so that they're not scratching their heads in a few hours saying "Hey, do you know where Burhan is? Is he just in the bathroom, or what?"

In fact, that's probably the big difference between Heywood's goodbye and Burhan's: Heywood was using his goodbye as a way to Make A Point. It was a goodbye used as an argument against the site. Burhanistan's was just a regular goodbye, like you say to colleagues at work or friends at a party.
posted by bugbread at 8:12 AM on September 12, 2007

Plus, of course, a civil goodbye spares us from the "Is Burhanistan...dead?" questions which sometimes pop up, because people do suddenly disappear because they die.
posted by bugbread at 8:14 AM on September 12, 2007

E-mailing other mefites that you are in communication with or leaving a note on your profile is saying goodbye to people at a party so they don't just wonder where you went. Posting to MeTa is getting up on a couch at the party and yelling "I am leaving this party now!"
posted by ND¢ at 8:18 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

Well, I know I'm one of the people who said "WTF Burhanistan" in other threads. I've always gotten along well with him, and it was cool to have someone on here posting from Cairo to give different perspectives. Plus, it's not like I've never agreed with what he's saying about what a time-sucker this site can be -- I've taken quite a few breaks from it myself over the years. So I'll admit I would've liked for the thread to have stayed open so there could've been a little bit of discussion with him instead of just slamming the door closed on him.

On the other hand, when people create MetaTalks to announce they are leaving it often makes them look a bit childish. Reading Burhanistan's over again, it was uncommonly gracious, though. Heywood Magroot's wasn't.
posted by miss lynnster at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2007

Some Mefites don't have their e-mails listed so people can't contact them, though. Blame Wendell. :)
posted by miss lynnster at 8:22 AM on September 12, 2007

The rule of "this is too much, I'm leaving!" threads is that the person who makes them rarely actually leaves. Clearly if the site is important enough for them to actually make such a thread in the first place, they'll be back just as before.

Sites losing users occurs more on an organic sort of basis. The user notices something that he doesn't like, so he stops visiting for a while. After some time he comes back once or twice a month, and rarely resumes a daily presence.

But that's the web for ya.
posted by clevershark at 8:26 AM on September 12, 2007

ND¢ writes "E-mailing other mefites that you are in communication with or leaving a note on your profile is saying goodbye to people at a party so they don't just wonder where you went. Posting to MeTa is getting up on a couch at the party and yelling 'I am leaving this party now!'"

Emailing, yeah. Leaving a note in your profile...maybe I use profiles differently than others, but I almost never look at anyone's profiles. Leaving a note in your profile is like writing "I'm taking off now, see y'all later" on a piece of paper and slipping it between the cushions in the couch.

Though, I admit, it does handily clear up the "Is X dead?" problem. So it's halfway between saying goodbye at a party and doing the ninja disappearance.

The problem is that there is no practical way to tell folks you're leaving. You either ninja, semi-ninja (note in profile), or shout at everyone in the party from the front door. Given those choices, I've got no problem with shouting from the door "I gotta wake up early tomorrow, thanks for inviting me today, goodbye" (like Burhanistan), and dislike shouting from the door "This party started out good, but now it fucking sucks. I'm leaving, you cocksmurfs!" (like Heywood).
posted by bugbread at 8:26 AM on September 12, 2007 [5 favorites]

Users of truly community-driven websites have come to expect and accept a limited amount of manipulation by the site's management. I expect a different editorial policy on Reddit than Slashdot. YouTube would not be nearly as popular if they were too diligent in enforcing their Terms of Use. At first slowly and now quickly, MetaFilter has veered drastically toward being an edited site. It is the Boing-Boingification of MetaFilter.

With all due respect, I'm not interested in reading the employees' versions of what MetaFilter should be. Mathowie, Jessamyn, and Cortex have prejudices, bad moods, and blind-spots just like every other person. I may be interested to read what they say, but I'm not interested in reading a website or discussion moderated to their tastes.
posted by McGuillicuddy at 8:32 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

Emailing, yeah. Leaving a note in your profile...maybe I use profiles differently than others, but I almost never look at anyone's profiles. Leaving a note in your profile is like writing "I'm taking off now, see y'all later" on a piece of paper and slipping it between the cushions in the couch.

I guess it chalks partway up to profile use. I click through much more often these days than I used to, for obvious reasons, but I've check out peoples profiles on a regular basis for a long time, and every now and then I'll look someone up because I've noticed they're not around. Sometimes there's a note, often there's not; I'll check out their last few comments as well if I'm curious.

I see the note in the profile not so much like scrap paper shoved in the couch as like a note tacked up in the spot where they would always hang their coat when they were coming around. Yes, it's not really an alert, but it is a nice compromise between ninja and megaphonery.
posted by cortex at 8:33 AM on September 12, 2007

or shout at everyone in the party from the front door. Given those choices, I've got no problem with shouting from the door

Given that about ten people sign up a day and maybe half as many chose to leave, wouldn't MetaTalk be unreadable if this happened more than once a week? once a day? 6 times a day?
posted by mathowie at 8:34 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm ok with MeTa threads being closed, I just take my snark to the blue and offload it there.
posted by blue_beetle at 8:35 AM on September 12, 2007

Well, damn.

I've been off MeFi, because I am at the Chapman Tunnel in Colorado, assisting a drill crew. (Um, no that's not my regular job, but... long story.) So, no internet, and even my hotel conection isn't working. Now I log on and my partner in lameness (not my judgment, someone else's Burhanistan is gone. No contact info. And the thread is closed. So here we are I guess. I'll read through this thread when I get back to civilization, but if Burhanistan is reading this, drop me an email, please.
posted by The Deej at 8:37 AM on September 12, 2007

I dunno. I should probably duck out of this conversation. I can see and agree with all positions here. Basically, there is no good answer. Leave all goodbyes, and the place gets clogged. Kill all goodbyes, and people don't find out when others are leaving until way later. Leave some, but nix some when the numbers get too high (the same way election posts are handled), and you get people bitching about "Why did X's goodbye get killed while Y's goodbye stayed?". So pretty much every position has its problems, leaving me with lots of opinions but no useful solutions. Sorry to have wasted y'all's time.
posted by bugbread at 8:48 AM on September 12, 2007

No, that was not an intentional parody/imitation of a goodbye post. I only realized it looks that way after I wrote the comment.
posted by bugbread at 8:49 AM on September 12, 2007

omg bugbread dont leavcome back!!!111lol!
posted by ND¢ at 8:53 AM on September 12, 2007

If the patterns I've seen hold true you probably run the risk of a massive user exodus if these trends continue.

Are you the JRun Gypsy come to read MeFi's tarot?

♪ Movement of Jah people! ♪

"LEAVING FOREVER" is an apex of hypocrisy and delusion as far as community membership is concerned; if you are honestly upset by anything that ever occurs on the internet you should probably have walked away a long time ago.

Maybe the administrators could be so gracious as to help reinforce these declared fasts and ban their IP, you know... on the odd chance that those most vocal have some unresolved issues with compulsion and discipline?
posted by prostyle at 8:55 AM on September 12, 2007

I'd like to take this opportunity to announce that I am staying on Metafilter, as a protest against the premature closing of threads.
posted by RokkitNite at 8:56 AM on September 12, 2007

omg rokkitnite leavdontcome back!!!111lol!
posted by ND¢ at 8:57 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

Given that about ten people sign up a day and maybe half as many chose to leave, wouldn't MetaTalk be unreadable if this happened more than once a week? once a day? 6 times a day?

I would guess that 99% of users that "leave" don't actively decide to quit in the style of Burhanistan. They just log in less and less frequently, and finally stop entirely because mefi doesn't appeal anymore. Equally 99% of all users would intuitively know that they don't merit a meta thread if they do quit, because no-one ever really noticed them anyway. There are however lots of prominent users who would deserve a farewell thread if they ever actively quit, either because they hate us, or because we'll miss them.
If we are essentially banning farewell threads, how about a preferences check box for quitters that triggers an rss feed update of departed users.
posted by roofus at 9:07 AM on September 12, 2007

Obviously a "leaving.metafilter.com" would solve this quandary :)
posted by clevershark at 9:10 AM on September 12, 2007

There are however lots of prominent users who would deserve a farewell thread

::barf:: No. Nobody "deserves" anything. If anyone wants to leave, they can leave, and that can be their reward.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:11 AM on September 12, 2007 [4 favorites]

90% of the moderation I am aware of is fantastically appropriate.

Agreed. I'd go even higher than that. But I agree with loq that there is also a non-negligent amount of (IMHO) "bad" moderation going on. The fact is that Matt, Jessamyn, and Cortex do a tough job and do it pretty well, and that I'd buy any one of them a beer in any bar I found them in. But I've stated before and repeat now, that i think heavyhanded, misguided moderation does happen here, and I very often find myself ranging from confused to annoyed to angry by some of the decisions they make.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 9:11 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

There are however lots of prominent users who would deserve a farewell thread if they ever actively quit, either because they hate us, or because we'll miss them.

Really? And who decides who those users are? And farewell threads have always been banned, this is nothing new. It's just that no one's posted one in a while.
posted by iconomy at 9:12 AM on September 12, 2007

It's dangerous to confuse children and angels for being a food source.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:14 AM on September 12, 2007

I'd buy any one of them a beer in any bar I found them in

All is forgiven! Come to Portland!
posted by cortex at 9:18 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

There are however lots of prominent users who would deserve a farewell thread if they ever actively quit, either because they hate us, or because we'll miss them.

Hundreds of "prominent" users have left in the past sans farewell threads. What would have been the use anyway? People come and go here constantly. It's the internet forcrhristssake.
posted by eyeballkid at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2007

I think there's a lot of folks missing the basic motive behind these posts, which isn't "I'm leaving LOOK AT ME", it's "I'm really pissed off with things around here, and I'm quitting -- so don't think I drifted off because I got busy, or just got bored or whatever. I left because I think X stinks, and it's not apparently changing, so it's the highway for me."
posted by bonaldi at 9:21 AM on September 12, 2007

though when I leave, I expect the site to shut down for a day and the front page to replaced with a blinking HATE sign
posted by eyeballkid at 9:23 AM on September 12, 2007

Moderation on the blue = :)
Moderation on the grey = :(
posted by dios at 9:27 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

Moderation on my head = :|
posted by Stynxno at 9:29 AM on September 12, 2007

::barf:: No. Nobody "deserves" anything. If anyone wants to leave, they can leave, and that can be their reward.

I feel the same way about funerals.
posted by anotherpanacea at 9:31 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

Obviously a "leaving.metafilter.com" would solve this quandary :)

This is a good idea and would be enhanced by images. The format would be a graveyard, with each tombstone bearing the username, dates of usership, and an epitaph generated by MarkovFilter.
posted by brain_drain at 9:33 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

This is a good idea and would be enhanced by images. The format would be a graveyard, with each tombstone bearing the username, dates of usership, and an epitaph generated by MarkovFilter.

Did you always get annoyed only being able to carry 100 pounds back to the wagon too?
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:45 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

And the box for submission on leaving.metafilter.com would have a link to Google Vehicle Search, just in case you're like Fred.

sorry to post it again but that story is just too good
posted by ALongDecember at 9:46 AM on September 12, 2007

jessamyn: 'a user who can't even be bothered to put an email address in his profile who just posts "I'm leaving" and doesn't say why, I don't know what to do with that.'

quonsar: 'i find it interesting that you think you have to do *anything* with that.'

But Q, doing things with things is the function of the Safety Patrol.

(Do youse Mods get nifty badges like we did?)
posted by davy at 9:48 AM on September 12, 2007

AOL or Salon.com would want a nice, safe, tidy subsidiary.
posted by davy at 9:49 AM on September 12, 2007

I liked B-han and Heywood and am sorry to see them go. I also miss tkchrist and dizzy.
posted by vronsky at 9:54 AM on September 12, 2007

Did you always get annoyed only being able to carry 100 pounds back to the wagon too?

Man. Bloggin' Trail has meme potential written all over it.
posted by cortex at 9:58 AM on September 12, 2007

tkchrist is gone? Weird. There's something strange about the public good-bye; why can't you just not post for a while, until the day comes when maybe you want to post again. Or not. These public farewells come across as either, "I'm addicted and I have to leave" or else "You people are not up to my standards and I have to leave". Sometimes I get busy and I don't write anything for a while, but I see no need to alert the MetaMedia...
posted by Mister_A at 9:58 AM on September 12, 2007

Bloggin' Trail has meme potential written all over it.

We just need to come up with a blogging equivalent of dysentery.
posted by clevershark at 10:01 AM on September 12, 2007

dissentery?
posted by brain_drain at 10:04 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

I've only been signed up for a short while, but I've been increasingly surprised by the largely uncritical view of moderation. I do see that that the site belongs to Matt Howie and that he is entitled to do what he likes with it, but there's also so much talk about it being a 'community' site. Community suggests to me something less oligarchical.

I suppose it simply means that people who like being moderated by Matt and the other two moderators are the people who belong here, and those who feel uncomfortable at the authoritarian nature of the site and the acquiescence to it of many vocal members, should just shut up and get lost.

If this were a country, I'd certainly leave for somewhere less moderated. But I would miss so many intelligent individuals' comments. Not so easy to come by on the web.
posted by jennydiski at 10:04 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

I suppose it simply means that people who like being moderated by Matt and the other two moderators are the people who belong here, and those who feel uncomfortable at the authoritarian nature of the site and the acquiescence to it of many vocal members, should just shut up and get lost

No. This is what IRC is for.
posted by Stynxno at 10:06 AM on September 12, 2007

jennydiski, can you give some examples of what you consider overmoderation? You made one mefi post that was previously posted, so it was a routine double post thing.

I would guess that the "uncritical view of moderation" stems from years of history on MetaTalk of users calling for no more posts about x (elections, news, politics, dumb news, etc), and requests that we delete more and delete stuff more often.
posted by mathowie at 10:09 AM on September 12, 2007

Community suggests to me something less oligarchical.

Nonsense.
posted by phaedon at 10:10 AM on September 12, 2007

Obviously a "leaving.metafilter.com" would solve this quandary :)

How about a "I'm leaving and never coming back" checkbox in the user profile? That way the member can notify the site but not have to start a thread. Make available an RSS feed of those who leave.
posted by mikepop at 10:15 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

I wasn't meaning the double post I made. I had no problem with that.

I'm talking about the conversations on metatalk - the general tenor of them, the response to any criticism. I'm simply surprised at the lack of debate.

Incidently, what happened to Matt Howie's comment: blogarrhea ? It's disappeared.
posted by jennydiski at 10:17 AM on September 12, 2007

you know what I hate about the "Goodbye I'm leaving!" threads? It's never the people I want to see leave that post them.
posted by shmegegge at 10:19 AM on September 12, 2007 [4 favorites]

Heh.

Fuck you guys, fuck politics, and fuck all this noise. I'm leaving to work on my painting.
posted by Adolf Hitler
posted by cortex at 10:25 AM on September 12, 2007

Thank you, Cortex, that was certainly a considered response.
posted by jennydiski at 10:30 AM on September 12, 2007

I think the site could use a little less moderation and a little more extremism. Out: Moderators. In: Etreminators.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:31 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

jennydiski, I think he was responding to what I had said. Also, I'd be very surprised if you found someplace else on the web that was more leniently moderated and even remotely worthwhile to hang out at. Not to say that they don't overmoderate sometimes but for the most part it's either somethingawful (routine and unnecessarily cruel punishments at the seeming random whim of moderators) or digg (virtually no moderation whatsoever combined with the worst conversation you can find on the internet).
posted by shmegegge at 10:35 AM on September 12, 2007

100% a response to shmegegge, jennydiski.
posted by cortex at 10:35 AM on September 12, 2007

What possible reason should a dramatic exit thread serve aside from a bunch of people mocking him for making it?

Jeez, Matt, the existence of the post didn't alone make it seem dramatic to me. He just left a note: I'm logging out, got stuff to do. Not a bad jumping-off point for a discussion about the place of MeFi in our lives, but I guess we just can't have nice things. He was a pretty great poster for the past year, would it really have had to be a boondoggle? I think I need a hug.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:39 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

You know who else thought Hitler humor was funny?
posted by miss lynnster at 10:41 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

I've only been signed up for a short while, but I've been increasingly surprised by the largely uncritical view of moderation. I do see that that the site belongs to Matt Howie and that he is entitled to do what he likes with it, but there's also so much talk about it being a 'community' site. Community suggests to me something less oligarchical.

I suppose it simply means that people who like being moderated by Matt and the other two moderators are the people who belong here, and those who feel uncomfortable at the authoritarian nature of the site and the acquiescence to it of many vocal members, should just shut up and get lost.

If this were a country, I'd certainly leave for somewhere less moderated. But I would miss so many intelligent individuals' comments. Not so easy to come by on the web.

I'm about to hop on a plane; I hope this site doesn't implode by virtue of its own hypocrisy by the time I land.
posted by phaedon at 10:42 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

This thread would be a lot funnier if it had been closed immediately.
posted by Koko at 10:42 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

I'm simply surprised at the lack of debate.

a direct result of thread closings is a lack of debate.
posted by quonsar at 10:45 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites]

I can understand the ongoing debate -- and clearly there is one -- over how heavy the moderation should be. It's odd, though, that there seems to be an intermittent trickle of people coming in and saying "Wow, Metafilter is a really neat place with interesting conversation. Pity it's moderated, though."

To me, this is kind of like saying "Wow, this meal is really delicious! Too bad they use salt in their cooking." There's certainly such a thing as too much salt, and certainly people who want to have salt-free cooking are welcome to it, but to simultaneously praise the flavor of a meal while wishing it was cooked in a radically different way seems...odd.
posted by L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg at 10:46 AM on September 12, 2007 [9 favorites]

I was beaten and raped in a political thread once, and would have died if the mods hadn't come closed it before it really got out of hand.
Words can kill, and moderation saves lives, people.
posted by 2sheets at 10:46 AM on September 12, 2007 [3 favorites]

Incidently, what happened to Matt Howie's comment: blogarrhea ? It's disappeared.
posted by jennydiski at 1:17 PM on September 12

Revolucion!
posted by Pastabagel at 10:47 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

I just can't swallow the moderation around here any more! Too salty!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:48 AM on September 12, 2007

I think the site could use a little less moderation and a little more extremism. Out: Moderators. In: Extreminators.

Very nice, IRFH. I was groping toward something like this, but as usual, you were there first with better than I would've done, so thanks again for keeping me from looking as bad as I really should.
posted by jamjam at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2007

We just need to come up with a blogging equivalent of dysentery.

Blogging is the blogging equivalent of dysentery.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2007 [4 favorites]

This cheezeburger I has is too salty. It tastes terrible. And the portion are too small.
posted by y2karl at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

Seems like it is second nature now for the majority (I'm including myself) to look at a post in the grey with jaundiced eye, expecting the worst kind of whining bitching moaning inside before we even click on it. Only tech requests/updates seem to escape our incessant snarkiness.
posted by misha at 10:49 AM on September 12, 2007

Why does nobody ever start a "Hi! I'm new here and I love you all!" thread?
posted by ardgedee at 10:50 AM on September 12, 2007

Those get deleted.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:51 AM on September 12, 2007 [4 favorites]

Most of my flagging in recent months has been of MeTa posts. Excluding meet-ups, bug reports, and egregious lapses in user behavior (Spamming, repeated and malicious abuse of others, which I think is actually pretty rare) they're fairly ineffective and pointless other than giving folks an opprotunity to kvetch and take their usual shots at one another.

I agree with your interpretation of "I'm Running Away To Join The Circus" posts, bonaldi, but at the same time, the self-martyr tone of them doesn't really lead to any sort of productive discourse, since the person who feels that they've outgrown the site or vice-versa isn't there to participate and is basically just using the soapbox to give the finger before hoisting their bindle.

Weird about tkchrist, though. I figured there would've been some huge Farewell Tale upon his departure. And yeah, I know, my MeFi Comments60;MeTa Comments.

Take it to MeTa, loser.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:52 AM on September 12, 2007

The pancakes will not be televised.
posted by phaedon at 10:52 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

mikepop: "How about a "I'm leaving and never coming back" checkbox in the user profile? That way the member can notify the site but not have to start a thread. Make available an RSS feed of those who leave."

Yes, and if you check the box? Automagically insta-banned.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:55 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites]

*Flags previous comment as "Fucked Up By Preview's Unicode Quirk"*
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:55 AM on September 12, 2007

Honestly, who would you miss on MeFi if they vanished without a word today?

This place wouldn't be the same without Robert Brook. I admire his long-standing quiescence.
posted by pardonyou? at 10:55 AM on September 12, 2007

As far as the Burhanistan thread being doomed to a 100% snarky one-liners fate, a single "Ok, great" and bam, closed, from The Man is something of a sanction to the expectation of callousness, or at least a self-fulfilling prophecy. I just thought it sounded kinda... overly... dickish.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:57 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

"This cheezeburger I has is too salty."

*arrests mathowie*
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:57 AM on September 12, 2007

Out: Moderators. In: Extreminators

My new band is totally going to be The Extreminators.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:57 AM on September 12, 2007

Not that it's worth much, but I also had been feeling that many MetaTalk threads in the past couple of months were being closed surprisingly early.
posted by leahwrenn at 11:00 AM on September 12, 2007

Hi, I've been here for a bit over a year, and every single one of you missed My BIRTHDAY! WAAAHHHH!

*sniff sniff* mathowie said he would get me a pony for my birthday BUT HE DIDN'T AND NOW LOQUACIOUS IS YELLING AT LANGUAGEHAT and davy is yelling at Jessamyn in THE OTHER THREAD! WAAAHHH WAHHH! WHY DID YOU HAVE TO BRING THIS UP TODAY? Why is everyone yelling on my birthday! YOU WRECKED EVERYTHING, LOQUACIOUS! and now mathowie and jessamyn are gonna get a DIVORCE! I HATE YOU!



Don't really hate you, and not really my birthday, but you all did miss it and that still hurts me a little , inside, where I'm still a little boy with a broken heart.
posted by Pastabagel at 11:09 AM on September 12, 2007

Sorry, Cortex, I didn't understand.

shmegegge: Yes, quite right about Metafilter being as interesting as it gets on the web. But even the use of the word 'leniently' makes me slightly alarmed. They always said I had an authority problem. They were right.
posted by jennydiski at 11:17 AM on September 12, 2007

Well, I'm sorry to see Burhanistan leave, but it's not the first time he's posted an "OK, I'm outta here" comment in MeTa, although it is the first post he's made about it. So the whole thing feels a bit like crying 'wolf'.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:18 AM on September 12, 2007

Hey, Pastabagel, is that you? Wasn't it your birthday a while ago? Happy Birthday!

I wanted to get you a pony but I don't know how to code it.
posted by misha at 11:21 AM on September 12, 2007

As far as the Burhanistan thread being doomed to a 100% snarky one-liners fate, a single "Ok, great" and bam, closed, from The Man is something of a sanction to the expectation of callousness, or at least a self-fulfilling prophecy. I just thought it sounded kinda... overly... dickish.

I realized after I woke up this morning that "Ok, great" does sound like a dick thing to say, but it was late and we've had a long week of metatalk fights. I should have said something totally neutral like "Ok, sorry to see you go, but I'm going to close this to keep things civil" because I'm absolutely 100% sure a post like that would be filled with people making comparisons of goodbye posts to drama queen behavior (and people having a problem with the word drama queen, and other people having a problem with those people with the problem).

I am genuinely bummed to see longtime or frequent posters go, but the so long threads on metatalk always come off as hey everyone look at me! and end up bringing out the worst in a lot of people.
posted by mathowie at 11:25 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm going to make a post soon as follows:

You know what? I have been fucking trying to troll you guys for so god damn long, but you keep being all reasonable and shit. I keep making inflammatory comments but the stupid mods and their stupid administrative procedures keep deleting them before anyone really gets upset. Fuck it, I'm out of here! You losers can keep your stupid website!
posted by shmegegge at 11:28 AM on September 12, 2007

A mountain of sugar is too much for one man :-(
posted by cmonkey at 11:31 AM on September 12, 2007

I realized after I woke up this morning that "Ok, great" does sound like a dick thing to say, but it was late and we've had a long week of metatalk fights. I should have said something totally neutral like "Ok, sorry to see you go, but I'm going to close this to keep things civil" because I'm absolutely 100% sure a post like that would be filled with people making comparisons of goodbye posts to drama queen behavior (and people having a problem with the word drama queen, and other people having a problem with those people with the problem).

I understand that, but Burhanistan was a well-liked poster who was leaving for perfectly neutral reasons. Even if we don't want to fête each outgoing poster with their own MetaTalk thread, the "Ok, great" did come off as a dick remark, irrespective of the intent.
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:36 AM on September 12, 2007

Thanks, Matt. I know how to mine late night geek-produced text for embedded silent sensitivity, but it's great to know you can reverse-engineer same.

I try a lot in MeTa threads to come up with interesting conversation points, and they're usually trolled, steamrolled and rickrolled, left to languish unaddressed, so I hear you, but leave some room for the polite and interested contingent to keep trying, okay?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:42 AM on September 12, 2007

I wanted to get you a pony but I don't know how to code it.

          (\(\_
     _.o o`\\\\
    ("_     ))))
     '---'  ((((          .=,
         )   )))___.-""-./=;\\\
        /    (((         \  ))))
       ;                  | |//
       /\          |      | ((
      (  \    /__.-'\    /   )
     / /` |  /    \  \  |
    / /   \ ;      \ (\ (
    \\_    ||       || ||
     \_]   ||       || ||
          /_< /_/_ br>

stupid doublespace
posted by pardonyou? at 11:43 AM on September 12, 2007 [4 favorites]

I'm simply surprised at the lack of debate.

Lack of debate? In MetaTalk??

*is boggled, doesn't know what to say*
posted by languagehat at 11:48 AM on September 12, 2007 [1 favorite]

I wanted to get you a pony but I don't know how to code it.
posted by misha at 2:21 PM on September 12

Really? Why are ponies hard to code anyway?

*sniff* But I got a cool hot wheels racetrack where the cars VROOM under these jumping sharks and if you put new batteries in it it makes a splashing sound like SPLASH only louder. Then the cars do a loopdeeloop and ZOOM right back. If you want you can bring some cars over and race them on my racetrack.

But don't tell shmegegge 'cause he always stomps on my tracks saying 'Grrr I'm a troll' and he calls my racers corporatist propaganda but when I told my dad he said shmegegge "sounded like a fucking Red". What's a red?
posted by Pastabagel at 11:49 AM on September 12, 2007 [2 favorites]

Pardonyou got me a pony!
posted by Pastabagel at 11:52 AM on September 12, 2007

Be it resolved, that languagehat seems more stupefied than boggled, and be it further resolved that the quality of toilet paper is more important than plycount.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:55 AM on September 12, 2007

If we shadows have offended,
Think but this, and all is mended,
That you have but slumber'd here
While these visions did appear.
And this weak and idle theme,
No more yielding but a dream,
Gentles, do not reprehend:
if you pardon, we will mend:
And, as I am an honest Puck,
If we have unearned luck
Now to 'scape the serpent's tongue,
We will make amends ere long;
Else the Puck a liar call;
So, good night unto you all.
Give me your hands,
if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends.
posted by four panels at 12:00 PM on September 12, 2007 [