Tags:

No tags yet.

Sans quoi?
March 10, 2008 5:30 AM Subscribe

Is sansgras the new Kaycee?

netbros and Oriole Adams have started asking questions in her latest thread, and it does seem like something is off.

posted by heatherann to MetaFilter-related at 5:30 AM (3647 comments total) 44 users marked this as a favorite

Advertise here: Contact FM.

I think Oriole Adams is probably correct that we're dealing with this person, in which case closing the sangras account is probably in order.
posted by orange swan at 5:40 AM on March 10, 2008

Ugh. Ban with extreme prejudice.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:50 AM on March 10, 2008

May I just slip in a small word of encouragement to people to use links rather than pasting entire multipage articles (or entire song lyrics with every last repetition transcribed, etc) into threads? Please do. Thanks.
posted by Wolfdog at 5:51 AM on March 10, 2008

Could we ban everyone who posts long winded open-ended, over-dramatic relationship questions, fakepost or not?
posted by furiousxgeorge at 5:53 AM on March 10, 2008 [10 favorites]

No way, furiousxgeorge. Some of us like the vicarious drama. We don't all have stoned chihuahuas at home to liven things up.
posted by orange swan at 5:56 AM on March 10, 2008 [6 favorites]

Anyone that prompts responses like this has to be kept around:

Oh god, I didn't realise it was you, sansgras.
posted by smackfu at 5:59 AM on March 10, 2008

Whoa.

I like relationshipfilter questions, but this one smelled weird, so I stopped reading early on.
posted by rtha at 6:02 AM on March 10, 2008

No way, furiousxgeorge. Some of us like the vicarious drama. We don't all have stoned chihuahuas at home to liven things up.

Yeah, but my meth addicted WNBA player sex-addict girlfriend stole that dog when she dumped me and stole my kids and moved to Estonia.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 6:05 AM on March 10, 2008 [5 favorites]

Ditto, rtha. I couldn't put my finger on it, but the joints felt too loose somehow.
posted by tentacle at 6:07 AM on March 10, 2008

Yeah, but my meth addicted WNBA player sex-addict girlfriend stole that dog when she dumped me and stole my kids and moved to Estonia.

I don't know whether to admire your restraint for not posing a relationship/legal issues/health AskMe about that one, or urge you to do so immediately.
posted by orange swan at 6:10 AM on March 10, 2008

I don't know whether to admire your restraint for not posing a relationship/legal issues/health AskMe about that one, or urge you to do so immediately.

Well I don't want my wife to find out about the affair, I just told her I sent the kids to a private school in Europe.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 6:13 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Wouldn't it be more entertaining to flag accounts like this so that all their postings carried the disclaimer "NOTICE: This posting is a form of interactive fiction. You are welcome to participate, but the question is not being asked in earnest."

No? OK. Just a thought.
posted by adamrice at 6:14 AM on March 10, 2008 [16 favorites]

I like adam's idea. I am perverse, and revel in the uncomfortable, so take it with a grain of salt.
posted by Mister_A at 6:23 AM on March 10, 2008

Ditto, rtha. I couldn't put my finger on it, but the joints felt too loose somehow.
posted by tentacle

Eponysterical!

It's funny - I don't usually check someone's posting history unless they specifically reference it, and in this case, I reckon if I had checked it, the smell would've knocked me off my feet instead of just giving me a small headache.

I don't get people who pull this kind of shit.
posted by rtha at 6:23 AM on March 10, 2008

Well, this is embarrassing. I guess I should read the posting history before trying to answer a question like that one again.
posted by rosebuddy at 6:30 AM on March 10, 2008

Now I'm curious and workplace blocks Encyclopedia Drammatica.
*shakes fist at websense*
posted by pointystick at 6:32 AM on March 10, 2008

Cortex? Jess? It's ok to spike your coffee this morning, we understand.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:34 AM on March 10, 2008

pointystick, an executive summary:

member of LiveJournal pro_ana community
claimed to be all of the following simultaneously: a doctor, married, pregnant with twins, a firefighter
had an LJ community created specifically to pray for her/wish her well
said she was going to Africa to work for Doctors Without Borders
organized a get-together for fellow pro_ana members and then didn't make reservations, plans, or even an appearance

And now apparently she's here.
posted by oaf at 6:38 AM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

Encyclopedia Dramatica is down at the moment anyway. But it's in the Google cache.
posted by litlnemo at 6:39 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

You know, if that question were to be set to music, the song would have to be Why, by Annie Lennox.
posted by orange swan at 6:39 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Holy cow.
posted by Miko at 6:39 AM on March 10, 2008

Thanks, guys.
Fishy indeed!
posted by pointystick at 6:40 AM on March 10, 2008

I guess I should read the posting history before trying to answer a question like that one again.

No no no. See, there are those among us with spidey sense, or armies of winged monkeys, or impossible amounts of time, or all of the above. They are able to do the detective work for the rest of us and because of their vigilence you don't have to mistrust questions. Act and interact openly, but know that your every move may be picked over by a crack team of far-flung, minutia-obsessed nerds with long memories, and if you pee in our pool they will find you, and fuck you up.

I am not one of these peacekeepers, but I stand in awe of them, and enjoy the freedoms that their sacrifice affords me.

I'm serious.
posted by dirtdirt at 6:43 AM on March 10, 2008 [19 favorites]

The suspicions were mounting as her claims got wilder and wilder, and the shit finally hit the proverbial fan when she organized a get-together for her fellow pro-anas, and then neglected to make reservations, plans, or even show up, leaving a herd of dazed and angered anas stranded in the middle of Los Angeles.

Is it just me, or is that last clause really damn funny?
posted by orange swan at 6:43 AM on March 10, 2008 [13 favorites]

Fascinating
posted by Wilder at 6:46 AM on March 10, 2008

Response from sansgras in original thread.

I'm always torn with these. The stories are fantastic, but some people really do have messed up, drama-filled lives. How do we tell the difference between Kaycee and Britney if they're posting on AskMe?
posted by heatherann at 6:47 AM on March 10, 2008

For the record, I'm not convinced the post is fake. Could be, but I'll wait to hear what the mods say.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:47 AM on March 10, 2008

This boggles my mind. I addressed many of the issues here in my latest response in my last question, so I hope that clears things up.

Regarding the sansgras issue-- Sansgras was a member on a well-known eating disorder support board. I did not join that board until after she did everything she did. I haven't read the links posted only because I remember reading them initially when they were created by users of the board I'm talking about. I know she claimed to be a doctor, to have lived in Africa, she also stood a bunch of the girls up in California. She was also in her 30s. I can vaguely recall her pictures.

Sans gras = French for "without fat." I can't tell you how many times I've seen my username as a username on eating disorder support sites.

As I mentioned in my response in my latest question, if I wasn't trying to be identifiable, why would I sign up under a username I was using elsewhere? I still haven't googled sansgras, but I really have no need to because I know none of those results are tied to me, considering I haven't used this username until now. I said that a few weeks ago when someone here asked me if Sansgras is my first name.
posted by sansgras at 6:48 AM on March 10, 2008

I hope I never have to ask another question.

So do we.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:54 AM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

Well, this is embarrassing. I guess I should read the posting history before trying to answer a question like that one again.

This is why I hate shit like this. This person's need to entertain her/himself has resulted in increasing the amount of cynicism about what one sees on the internet even more, and made it less likely that the commenter will want to participate in AskMe for fear that he or she is being tricked. We could make of the internet any type of world that we want, but instead we have turned it into the kind of place that made me feel the need to sit my mother down and give her a five minute warning about when I found out the she had joined a listserv.

On preview: I hope that your denials are genuine, but you sound like you are lying. I have no way of knowing one way or the other, but people here do, and I look forward to their determination.
posted by ND¢ at 6:56 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

I have no way of knowing one way or the other, but people here do, and I look forward to their determination.

Huh? What methods could 'people here' use to determine if she was lying or not? At most, they could see if she was someone's sockpuppet. But if not, then what? Is Matt supposed to lookup her IP, hire a P.I. and have her followed to determine if her stories are real?

Also, responding to your more general point, ND¢, an internet where honesty was mandatory would have to have some pretty extreme enforcement mechanisms. Yes, people lie and try to scam each other. It's annoying but it's better then having some central authority dictating controlling everything and dictating what is and is not 'true'. (I'm talking about the internet in general here, not Metafilter itself)
posted by delmoi at 7:05 AM on March 10, 2008

Very strange, for sure.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:08 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Why would sansgrace join an eating disorder board under the same username as a notoriously repellent shit-monger and liar? Eh? She apparently knew the history of the name when she joined the mysterious board in question:

I haven't read the links posted only because I remember reading them initially when they were created by users of the board I'm talking about.

That sure sounds like, "I read those entries when they were first posted," which means that sansgrace claims to have deliberately joined under the same name, knowing it was the tag of a hated former member, but with the best of intentions. Either that or she/he/it is completely full of shit. By applying the principle known as Occam's razor, sansgrace is probably full of shit.
posted by Mister_A at 7:09 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

I am not proposing an internet where honesty is enforced. I suppose I am talking about encouraging honesty through the culture. I suppose the internet is just too big for that.

As for the some people can find out remark, I wasn't trying to sound ominous. It just seems like whenever there is a MeTa thread about who someone is that people seem to find out, and it has never in the past involved Matt hiring a P.I. I don't know how they do it, but they seem to do it.
posted by ND¢ at 7:09 AM on March 10, 2008

I guess that I am expressing my faith in the Mefi detective brigade. They have never let us down yet.

Watch this be the first time. Stupid Mefi detectives, making me look like a jerk.
posted by ND¢ at 7:13 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

We've got our pitchforks out, gotta use them.
posted by smackfu at 7:14 AM on March 10, 2008

Oh man. I'm not sure what was more pathetic - the actual question in that thread or the fact that so many people posted 'dump the loser' in the face of a conjoining of two of the most potentially vapid, self-unaware twits to ever grace the face of the internet. It makes better comedy than reality but I think, unfortunately, it's probably a real person.
posted by docpops at 7:15 AM on March 10, 2008 [5 favorites]

It just seems like whenever there is a MeTa thread about who someone is that people seem to find out

That's true, but sansgras has zero personal information in her profile, and the people who get outed are usually self-linkers who leave a trail of breadcrumbs across the internet in their quest for self-promotion.

But here, there are no leads for the MeFi detective squad to follow, unless you assume that all sansgrases are the same person, in which case you could google the name and come up with all kinds of Drama, I'm sure.

Now, I haven't actually read her questions, and perhaps they are really ridiculous, and maybe that's enough to ban her outright, I really have no idea how Matt would handle this.

But I don't think anyone will actually be able to determine the veracity of her stories, beyond any superficial absurdity.
posted by delmoi at 7:17 AM on March 10, 2008

Why would we want the administrators to ban someone who adds to our enjoyment of the site? That is so backwards. If anything they should ban heatherann for trying to chase away our beloved sansgras!
posted by 1 at 7:19 AM on March 10, 2008

Is Matt supposed to lookup her IP, hire a P.I. and have her followed to determine if her stories are real?

A MeFi P.I. would be the greatest thing ever. Better than Magnum even.

The only question is, what kind of detective would the MeFi P.I. be? Would he be old-school like Sam Spade? A 70s throwback like Shaft? Perhaps a psychic female detective that has visions of MetaFilter evildoers. The possibilities are limitless.
posted by burnmp3s at 7:20 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

I am thinking one P.I. just won't cut it. This demands a buddy cop team.
posted by boubelium at 7:22 AM on March 10, 2008

Oooh! Oooh! I want to be MeFi's Magnum PI! I'd live in a beach house, drive an expensive sports car, hang out with fun buddies, and be dating a different, hot man every episode. Then, in the last episode, I'd reveal that Matt Haughey is really Miguel Cardoso. Or should that be the other way around?
posted by orange swan at 7:23 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Peter Falk.
posted by Mister_A at 7:23 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

This makes no sense to me. Why in the world would you choose such a notorious username risking confusion? It's one thing if you randomly made it up and it's a strange coincidence, but you are apparently quite familiar their online history and yet you persist on using that name? That's just... weird.

Orange swan:

leaving a herd of dazed and angered anas stranded in the middle of Los Angeles.

Is it just me, or is that last clause really damn funny?

It's funny because it describes a typical Saturday night on Sunset blvd. ;)
posted by like_neon at 7:24 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

ND¢, lets say honesty is encouraged in the internets, and it works. After a few months exposed to mostly honest people, I would drop my default attitude from highly skeptic to somewhat trusting. I guess most people would do the same. Then someone not familiar with the culture shows up, and starts lying. They could get away with anything.

I welcome the occasional Kaycee immunization and the very frequent giveWell booster shots.
posted by Dr. Curare at 7:25 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

A MeFi P.I. would be the greatest thing ever.

Plus, sansgras would probably notice and start posting askmes about a spooky interloper watching her, following her, always on the edges of her perceptual periphery. And everyone will think she's even crazier*.

_{(*note that crazyness is based on the comments here, not on ready her posts. Maybe they are reasonable, I don't know)}
posted by delmoi at 7:25 AM on March 10, 2008

I know sansgras has claimed she doesn't want to talk about her personal information, but I'm asking everyone else:

Are there many one-year Master's programs? I always thought they were standardly two years.
posted by Ms. Saint at 7:26 AM on March 10, 2008

Here's a one-year M.A. program.
posted by oaf at 7:28 AM on March 10, 2008

Are there many one-year Master's programs? I always thought they were standardly two years.

I have a friend who got a masters in Human Computer Interaction at CMU in like 18 months.
posted by delmoi at 7:28 AM on March 10, 2008

Then someone not familiar with the culture shows up, and starts lying. They could get away with anything.

But now the opposite happens. Everyone that is familiar with the culture of the internet knows to assume that someone is lying to them unless proven otherwise and then my poor sweet momma shows up and is mailing checks to Nigeria and forwarding e-mails so that Bill Gates will send her a dollar.

Note: my momma did not do either of those things, but she is very sweet.
posted by ND¢ at 7:29 AM on March 10, 2008

Clearly one of the mods is up. A comment in the AskMe thread just got torpedoed.
posted by oaf at 7:30 AM on March 10, 2008

I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt until she said she had heard of the pro-anorexia board (first I've heard of anything like that - thanks for that link!) and even knew of the previous sansgras drama over there. No way that's a coincidence.
Also, the claims of early graduate dregrees and suchlike reminds me of un owen. Whatever happened to her?
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:30 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

There are plenty of big time Universities that have one year MAs. It is usually in programs in which an MA gets you nowhere and everyone is there to continue on to the Ph. D.
posted by boubelium at 7:32 AM on March 10, 2008

It's kinda weird to pick the name of a much-reviled persona on one community when you join another one. Not sure there is a smoking gun though.
posted by grouse at 7:33 AM on March 10, 2008

Ms. Saint - Yes, there are such things as 1 year Master's programs
posted by like_neon at 7:33 AM on March 10, 2008

I chose the username because I like the meaning. I wouldn't expect people who don't frequent eating disorder message boards to know this, but I've seen sansgras as a username plenty of times. It didn't occur to me that people would think I am Beth for this reason. Even today when I see this username elsewhere, I don't automatically, unconsciously assume that person is Beth.

I discovered MetaFilter through the message board I mentioned earlier, where I am identifiable, so I would imagine that if any of those users saw my questions or this thread, they would recognize who I am.

I didn't think there was a risk of confusion because:

1. The only thing Beth and I have in common is that we both have eating disorders and we were both a member of the same message board, although she was banned and gone a few years before I joined. I only know the story through reading about it elsewhere.

2. I didn't expect that anyone would think that I'm so careless in my quest to be anonymous that I would accidentally choose the same username (assuming I am Beth), the same common French phrase that really isn't all that unique, after already knowing it's linked to so many things.
posted by sansgras at 7:38 AM on March 10, 2008

That question had one of the best parentheticals ever:

(a lot of heavy kissing and touching, yet I was not allowed to touch his parts. He did not have an erection.)
posted by mullacc at 7:41 AM on March 10, 2008

Additonally, I don't understand how I could be banned as a user. I've posted questions, people have answered. I haven't formed close ties with anyone as a means to manipulate them into giving me money or something. I've answered every question. Every suggestion that I am someone else is only speculation. I'm sorry my story is a mess (in terms of content), but that is the reason I came here in the first place. I was looking for objective advice. I hope I never have to ask another question.

Well, you saw the sansgras drama on the eating disorder forum. I linked to the Kaycee Nicole drama in my original post. There have been fake posters on Metafilter, and it pissed us off. We're a bit skittish about potentially being gamed again.

If you're legit, AskMe should be a safe space for you to get objective advice, and I think that it has been until now. People in the situation you've described would do well to move out and become independent, seek therapy, DTMFA, etc. If you're not legit, you can understand why we would be peeved about wasting our time on fictional drama and therefore ban you. Right now we're not sure which situation we're dealing with.

If you are legitimate, please bear with us as we try to sort it out.
posted by heatherann at 7:41 AM on March 10, 2008

The only reason I didn't mention the one year master's program, called an SMP, is because there are only a few of them around (15 or so?), and although I never mentioned my field specifically, I've mentioned other things I want to do professionally-speaking, so it's not difficult to put two and two together and figure out what I'm talking about. Again, with the not wanting to be identifiable.

And if I was Beth, the integral part of her story is that she claims to be a doctor. I'm claiming to be 20, a former graduate student, not a doctor.
posted by sansgras at 7:42 AM on March 10, 2008

Here's a link to a list of one year M.S. programs in the U.S., geared toward people who are looking to kill time, increase GPA, etc. before medical school:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=489913
posted by sansgras at 7:46 AM on March 10, 2008

This is all getting very Meta.
posted by Bookhouse at 7:48 AM on March 10, 2008

While this certainly does look suspicious, sansgras says above:

Sans gras = French for "without fat." I can't tell you how many times I've seen my username as a username on eating disorder support sites.

I have no idea whether the latter assertion is true, but if it is—if "sansgras" is a common username—then I'd say she gets the benefit of the doubt.

Either way, I loved this "Amusing quote" from the Encyclopedia Dramatica article:

Bethie,

I tried to communicate with you telepathically. Pretty flakeyville, hunh? I just felt this strong compulsion when I guess I could have been sleeping but I figured I could sleep later, and I did. I hope you wake up soon. We miss you, tht's all. Take your time as you need, I told you, but I really miss you and flakeyville or not, I hope you felt/heard me last night. I keep lighting candles for you, sweetheart. I think of you every day, I really do. I heart you, big time. I'm going to write you a letter and maybe Chris could read it to you. Btw, that postage stamp on the letter you sent to me was so cute! I loved the teddy bear with the presents design of it. I didn't see any US stamps as cute or cool as that one. It's a keeper. :) xo Siobhan

Current Mood: keeping the faith

posted by languagehat at 7:48 AM on March 10, 2008

I am sparatcus.
posted by yhbc at 7:50 AM on March 10, 2008

Omigod, a link! She must be legit. IF THAT URL GOES TO A LEGIT 1-YEAR MASTER'S PROGRAM THEN EVERYTHING SHE HAS SAID IS TRUE!!!11!!

By the way, have you ever wondered what the A stands for?
posted by Mister_A at 7:51 AM on March 10, 2008

Wow. I loved your work in the 80s, Mister_A. (Oh, wait -- sorry, got confused.)
posted by maudlin at 7:54 AM on March 10, 2008

So Mister A, her and now!! Clear it all up for us? Are you going to jump in the race or not? Your country is calling you sir!!
posted by pearlybob at 7:54 AM on March 10, 2008

Grow up, Mister A.

I posted that link to show that one year master's programs are in existence.

I thought the A stood for asinine.
posted by sansgras at 7:55 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

here and now!! damn no edit! Bah!
posted by pearlybob at 7:55 AM on March 10, 2008

I'm voting insane, but probably not a Kaycee. That is, not a sock puppet of the pro-ana Kaycee.

Might be useful to try and get someone from the eating disorder drama to see if they can draw comparisons between the writing styles. Is that LJ still up somewhere?
posted by Ragma at 7:56 AM on March 10, 2008

sansgras, I would back away from this thread, if I were you. If you are who you say you are, nothing you say is going to convince some people otherwise, and if you aren't who you say you are, someone is going to find a smoking gun. Either way, nothing more to be done on your side.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:58 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

You're a boring self-obsessed mouth breather, regardless of your age, education, gender, etc.
posted by Mister_A at 7:58 AM on March 10, 2008

"Grow up, Mister A."

Coming from someone with your AskMe question history, I find this comment extremely odd.
posted by Ragma at 7:58 AM on March 10, 2008

Now would be a good time for everyone to take a smoke or chocolate break.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:00 AM on March 10, 2008

What is life but a series of one-year Master's programs?
posted by mullacc at 8:00 AM on March 10, 2008 [14 favorites]

I have lots of girl scout cookies. I'll share!
posted by pearlybob at 8:01 AM on March 10, 2008

Where are the grownups?
posted by shothotbot at 8:04 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

I have the conch bitches!
posted by Mister_A at 8:05 AM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

Anyone wanna kill a boar and make boar bacon cups?
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:06 AM on March 10, 2008

Pig..er Pearlybob slowly puts down the thin mints. Backs away from the fire....
posted by pearlybob at 8:07 AM on March 10, 2008

I am thinking one P.I. just won't cut it. This demands a buddy cop team.

She's a sexy and sassy librarian. He's a musician with multiple web projects. Together, they fight MeFi Crime.
posted by never used baby shoes at 8:07 AM on March 10, 2008 [13 favorites]

Cortex is a librarian?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:09 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Where are the grownups?

Still deleting comments.
posted by oaf at 8:10 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Grups don't help.
posted by ND¢ at 8:11 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Maybe I am jaded and cynical, maybe there has just been a terrible dearth of 20 year olds with an interesting combination of advanced degrees and a complete lack of common sense in my life, but quite honestly, sansgras, I have had some trouble believing in you since the second "My father is stalking me" thread. That was when I went through your askme history and went, "Huh." I mean, Doogie Howser went to med school early and still, he managed to figure out stuff like how to rent an apartment and date. I think. It's been a while.

Perhaps all the trauma in your askme questions is true, in which case, sorry, although I don't quite get your total resistance to the perfectly good advice you've already gotten. December to February is not a lot of time, true, but perhaps it was enough to start the process of growing up and shedding the parental shackles as so many people so earnestly advised you to do. But then, what do I know? I had long since moved out, had a kid and was working on a divorce, a job and a degree at 20. That kid herself was working two jobs to pay for her own apartment and going to school full time at 20. Therefore, based on my own anecdotal evidence, hon, I would recommend that if you are for real, it's time to grow up. If you aren't for real, next time, don't repeat yourself two months apart like that.

On preview, curses! The time for lengthy comments is past. Oh well.
posted by mygothlaundry at 8:13 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

<ahem>
Metafilter: I hope that your denials are genuine, but you sound like you are lying.
posted by blue_beetle at 8:14 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Well, this is a mess.

Folks, if you could drop it with the one-liners in the askme, that'd be great. Remember those guidelines? They still exist. Thank you.

sansgras, I'm one of the three moderators on the site. I have to admit I agree with a lot of the "this smells" sentiment folks are expressing in here, but I'm not going to write you off based solely on hunch and circumstance, and if you can provide some hard detail that verifies your story I'd be happy to see it.

You've said you're hesitant to publicize details that would create a link between your identity here and elsewhere; if you'd drop me an email to help clear this up, I'm fine keeping the details private. My email is listed in my profile, here.
posted by cortex at 8:15 AM on March 10, 2008

Seconding TPS. This is no place for rational discourse, legitimate self-defense, etc.
posted by not_on_display at 8:16 AM on March 10, 2008

I know a 21 yo who talks exactly like this. So I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

And also tell her to GROW THE HELL UP ALREADY and IF YOU REALLY ARE AN "OLD SOUL" START ACTING IT ALREADY AND GYOFB.
posted by dw at 8:16 AM on March 10, 2008

Doogie Howser went to med school early and still, he managed to figure out stuff like how to rent an apartment and date.

Doogie Howser lived at home with his parents, who may or may not have been stalking him. Also, dating as a homosexual teenaged doctor was probably a complicated mess.
posted by Item at 8:19 AM on March 10, 2008 [7 favorites]

Doogie Howser lived at home with his parents, who may or may not have been stalking him. Also, dating as a homosexual teenaged doctor was probably a complicated mess.

There was, like, this one time? Where he finally got this date, with, like, this girl he really liked? And during the date she got, like, appendicitis? And he, like, had to take her to the hospital and operate on her? And he, like, totally had to ask if she was a virgin for, like, some medical reason? It was, like, totally awkward! Then he, like, went home and wrote about it in his journal. Totally a mess. That might be when he decided he was the ghey or something.
posted by never used baby shoes at 8:23 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

...Together, they fight MeFi Crime.

I'd totally watch that.
posted by Skorgu at 8:24 AM on March 10, 2008

Does vaguely describing 80's TV shows pass for wit around here nowadays?
posted by ND¢ at 8:24 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Isn't that "teh ghey" ?
posted by Mister_A at 8:24 AM on March 10, 2008

Looking at Sansgras/Beth's Livejournal last night, I observed that she was claiming to be a 24-year-old M.D. who teaches at a university. This Sansgras is 20 either with or working on a master's degree. So I guess they're both child prodigies?

Also, I've never heard of a forum which either technologically or by policy releases usernames of banned members for re-use.
posted by loiseau at 8:25 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Was that before or after he was Lee Harvey Oswald?
posted by oaf at 8:25 AM on March 10, 2008

Yes, that struck me as suspicious too, loiseau.
posted by Mister_A at 8:27 AM on March 10, 2008

"And if I was Beth, the integral part of her story is that she claims to be a doctor. I'm claiming to be 20, a former graduate student, not a doctor."

You see, the claims, they are different! A doctor-firefighter-pregnant-mother would never claim to be something she's not!
posted by klangklangston at 8:29 AM on March 10, 2008

After he was Wallace Cleaver Den Beste and before he was Ron Paul Harvey Oswald
posted by y2karl at 8:31 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

a master's degree

In a field related to medicine, no less.
posted by oaf at 8:32 AM on March 10, 2008

I admit it: Sansgras is my sockpuppet!

/isn't well-known enough to have a sockpuppet
posted by shakespeherian at 8:33 AM on March 10, 2008

Skinny people are beautiful AND smart. Duh.
posted by The Bellman at 8:36 AM on March 10, 2008

Can someone explain what this post means? I can't figure it out.
posted by loiseau at 8:36 AM on March 10, 2008

If any Mefi Detectives need a Sergeant Lewis or Troy, my number is in the book. I'll be happy to make incorrect assumptions while providing inspiration to your deductive reasoning.

Barring that, if someone wants to team up and be the Herc to my Carver, we can bust some Mefi Heads the Western District Way.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:36 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

"And if I was Beth, the integral part of her story is that she claims to be a doctor. I'm claiming to be 20, a former graduate student, not a doctor."

Shouldn't that say "And if I was Beth, the integral part of her story is that she claims to be a doctor. I am 20, a former graduate student, not a doctor."

?
posted by iconomy at 8:39 AM on March 10, 2008 [23 favorites]

leaving a herd of dazed and angered anas stranded in the middle of Los Angeles.

The dazed herd -- feeling quite faint due to the lack of food and mid-day sun -- began wandering aimlessly in the direction of South Central L.A. Fortunately, a wandering pack of Overeaters Anonymous cowboys were able to rustle up the herd and steer them back towards the protective, welcoming confines of Beverly Hills.
posted by pardonyou? at 8:42 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

furiousxgeorge: "Could we ban everyone who posts long winded open-ended, over-dramatic relationship questions, fakepost or not?"

Could we ban everyone who answers long winded open-ended, over-dramatic relationship questions? Cut off their oxygen and the lunatics will be more likely to stay with LJ.
posted by meehawl at 8:46 AM on March 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

Setting aside the truth of the details for a moment, where my alarm goes off is Sansgras's in-thread responses.

Sansgras, you have people posting responses to your question, and you only pick up what a small few are saying. You don't seem to consider reasonable advice- you are stuck thinking and talking what you want to talk about. That is fine, in a sense, but true growth will come when you consider *all* of what people are trying to tell you, even if it hurts because it is true.

When you dodge/don't response to some of the comments, you remind me of the ebay scammer that posted questions to AskMe. That is what sets off the alarms for me.
posted by Monday at 8:49 AM on March 10, 2008

If sansgras is fraudulent, then y'all are providing him/her with the exact kind of entertainment they're out to get in the first place.
posted by sciurus at 8:52 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

...Together, they fight MeFi Crime.

In the dystopian future of MeFi, the pre-cog versions of Jess, Matt, and Cortex will be able to detect a bad post before it happens and lower the ban hammer before we even have a chance to snark.
posted by boubelium at 8:54 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Barring that, if someone wants to team up and be the Herc to my Carver, we can bust some Mefi Heads the Western District Way.

*shaves head, packs on pounds*
posted by jonmc at 8:54 AM on March 10, 2008 [6 favorites]

Well, pathetic may be too strong a word. But it really is shocking that anyone could read her query and not be awestruck by the vapidity and shallowness of it, and in response think that some well-crafted coda is going to somehow be seen as enlightening by a person that would post such purple horseshit. Worse yet, everything she's already said in her post makes it clear that she openly or subconsciously has nothing but disdain for people that actually treat her with respect. These people don't need more of your time and when you give it to them they think you're a rube for trying. But carry on just the same if it keeps them off the streets a minute longer.
posted by docpops at 8:56 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Welcome back, jonmc.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 8:57 AM on March 10, 2008

Meanwhile, what happened here?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:02 AM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

What a crazy Monday morning! Got to go to lunch now... I hope I don't miss anything when I'm gone.
posted by yeti at 9:04 AM on March 10, 2008

Pony request: Can someone read through AskMe to get to the really good ones like this and post a compilation list? I can not slog through innumerable queries about speaker cables and carnauba wax, but I do enjoy these clusterfuck questions.
posted by Mister_A at 9:05 AM on March 10, 2008

I don't know how much of sansgras's story is exaggerated or made up -- the name thing is totally fishy.

But I work with biomedical researchers, and can say that 20-year-olds with master's degrees aren't unicorns. She'd even have time to graduate from high school at the normal time and do a two-year master's.
posted by desuetude at 9:06 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Are you calling me crazy, yeti?
posted by Monday at 9:07 AM on March 10, 2008

I'm thinking this, and I'm inclined to be sympathetic. There are three possibilities:

1.These postings could be a complete put-on, a total calculated stunt.
2. These postings could reflect a genuine identity but contain an incredible amount of 3. prevarication (there are a lot of factual inconsistencies).
Or they could be completely, bizarrely true, at least in the main.

If it's anything other than 1, we have an OP here with some really very serious personal problem. So my sense of this is that we are seeing a personal mental health crisis. Whether her drama is real or not is less important than the fact that she needs to secure professional help, one way or the other, ASAP, even if it's just driving directly to the ER or the women's shelter next time instead of going to class. The convoluted thinking, the confusion, the desperation, and the neediness are screamingly clear.

Heck, those things are true even in the case of #1.

I'm disuturbed and perhaps a bit enlighted by the mention in the first AskMe that "I have to drown myself in benzodiazepines if I want to simply interact with the guy in any manner." The Wikipedia page also says "Benzodiazepines can cause a wide range of significant behavioral disturbances and cognitive impairment. Cognitive deficits, including concentration and memory-processing problems, are a well-known adverse effect of benzodiazepines and occur at prescribed dose levels."

In the 3rd posting medication shows up again: "I am also back on anti-depressants. I summoned the courage to see my GP, and I'm now on an SSRI and a benzo. She wants me to see a psychiatrist and a therapist before she continues to see me anymore. "

On March 1 she notes that the present relationship (about which she made the most recent post) is ending with the male's rejection of her, and also that she is "tapering herself of the Lexapro" in advance of moving out secretly, "...and this also worries me because it helps so much. I don't have the energy to feel any worse."

No wonder this is all so nutty. For one thing, messing around with administering and then withdrawing from your own meds will spin your head every time. Stop! Call your doctor!

There are hints of a lying problem. She says in the first post she's working full-time, in the third that she's working part-time. As to the other message board and the "sansgras" name, she says in an earliler thread "I realize my posts come up easily through a Google search. I haven't given away any identifying details, my username is one I made up for this site only...", which has been contradicted in this thread. There are claims of having never dated, then claims of "dating" several people, though it's not clear what "dating" means (could mean phone conversations or sex appointments). So I don't think truthfulness is a strong suit here, but I also don't think that necessarily invalidates the entire rest of the story. Someone who has a deeply messed-up family situation, skewed sense of self-worth, history of disorders, and changes in psychotropic drug use going on might have illusions, shelteredess, and a weaker sense of reality going on than we generally expect.

My bottom line: I see a lot of effort to sneaking around, trying to fix and perfect every aspect of a life that isn't working. It's not helping. If the story's true, you might consider getting to a women's shelter immediately. They'll help you figure out everything else about jobs, cellphones, and rent, but for your own health and safety, it seems you need to take some definitive action.

You're not thinking straight. Get help, girlfriend. Stet.
posted by Miko at 9:08 AM on March 10, 2008 [25 favorites]

But I work with biomedical researchers, and can say that 20-year-olds with master's degrees aren't unicorns.

I work with biomedical researchers too, and have never met a 20-year-old with a master's degree.

She'd even have time to graduate from high school at the normal time and do a two-year master's.

No, she wouldn't, unless her undergraduate degree took less than a year.
posted by grouse at 9:10 AM on March 10, 2008

Miko, you're awesome.
posted by Mister_A at 9:13 AM on March 10, 2008

In world of Keyser Sozes, TylerDurden72s and DIEMBAGRULZ, having a username like sansgras doesn't seem so out of the ordinary. For what its worth, I give her the benefit of the doubt in the absence of a FireFox plugin or Greasemonkey script entitled "HonestChecker™" For fucksakes, I've been gamed before on the web and I'm sure I will again (remember Plain Layne?) but my computer didn't explode, my bank account wasn't emptied and I can still get an erection (ok I lied - my monitor did burn out). I trust that most of our membership is able to sniff this shit out quicker than a bloodhound at a fish-fry. To me it seems this trail leads nowhere.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 9:15 AM on March 10, 2008

Is "fat-free" a common pseudonym on weight-centered forums or is it simply the french translation that's common (if it is indeed common)?
posted by Skorgu at 9:15 AM on March 10, 2008

Meanwhile, what happened here?

TPS, I really don't know. The thread was messy when I got up and when I noticed that the user has closed her account, I just decided to close the thread.
posted by jessamyn at 9:17 AM on March 10, 2008

^loiseau: Secret Squirrel was a cartoon character. aeschenkarnos was saying that if:
- OP's story is true, and you advise as true: win-win
- OP's story is true, you advise as false: it could be messy.
- OP's story is false, you advise as true: you just got some good practice.
- OP's story is false, you advise as false: You are Secret Squirrel.

So, if you knew the answer to that question before you commented, I just got some good practice.
posted by not_on_display at 9:18 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Being a 20 year old with a masters doesn't sound that implausible to me.

I graduated from high school at 17 (my birthday's in July), started college at 18, and graduated a year early, a few months shy of my 21st birthday. If I'd skipped a grade or two in elementary school I could easily have had time to get a masters in there.

OR DID I?
posted by fuzzbean at 9:18 AM on March 10, 2008 [8 favorites]

Is "fat-free" a common pseudonym on weight-centered forums or is it simply the french translation that's common (if it is indeed common)?

My google for sansgras didn't reveal much aside from the metafilter posts, the pro-an stuff, and a gnomish WoW player. I didn't know gnomes could get anorexia.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:22 AM on March 10, 2008

Gnomes are low-fat, not fat-free. They go good with mustard and rye bread.
posted by Mister_A at 9:23 AM on March 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

My brother at age 16 (also a July bday), skipped his senior year to go on to college. Finished a 4 year degree in 3, graduated college at 19 and had his Masters at 21. It was a 2-year program though. So I guess it can be done if the stars allign correctly...
posted by pearlybob at 9:24 AM on March 10, 2008

Am I the only one who had to look up "pro-ana" in wikipedia?
posted by octothorpe at 9:25 AM on March 10, 2008

Nope.
posted by Mister_A at 9:25 AM on March 10, 2008

Dagnabit Jonmc, I just noticed you came back. Now I have to add you back as a contact. Just for that, I'm marking you as a "sweetheart."
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 9:25 AM on March 10, 2008

Also, the claims of early graduate dregrees and suchlike reminds me of un owen. Whatever happened to her?

Setting aside the truth of the details for a moment, where my alarm goes off is Sansgras's in-thread responses.

Yep, those were the two things that flipped the suspicion switch for me. I posted my first response under the impression of "Oh yeah: dramatic 20-year-old girl, with a tendency to overanalyze everything -- i rememberwhat that was like." My second response came after taking a very perfunctory glance at the "my dad is abusing me" threads, which I hadn't read before.

But then, when she comes back with the "I want the Bobby to my Whitney" (and, as an aside: what year is this that all the kids are idolizing Bobby Brown/Whitney Houston as the sexy dysfunctional drama to emulate? I mean, they're not even on TV anymore, no?), it was clear that she is either purposely yanking some chains, or is seriously in need of help. She doesn't want advice, she wants attention. Whether it's attention for an entirely made-up drama, or attention for an actual train wreck in progress, she seems to want witnesses rather than help. But that's exactly what she needs, in either case.
posted by scody at 9:25 AM on March 10, 2008

Gnomes are low-fat, not fat-free. They go good with mustard and rye bread.

Don't have to tell me, I play an undead warlock. Gnomes are an integral part of the diet.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:25 AM on March 10, 2008

My spidey sense agrees with the call of "bullshit."

I also noticed what iconomy pointed out, "Shouldn't that say 'And if I was Beth, the integral part of her story is that she claims to be a doctor. I am 20, a former graduate student, not a doctor.'?" If you weren't Beth, you'd not give a hoot about how your story sounded in comparison to hers. Like the detectives say, you just don't act like a truly innocent suspect would.

And I also don't believe that an internet community, even one full of admittedly sick people, would allow a new different user to adopt the name of an old shit-stirrer that was gone.

And, "Why would I use a name that you could easily Google?" is also a bullshit response. We don't go around googling all new users, all the time. Anyone who'd been lurking here for even the shortest amount of time would appreciate that the sheer size of the membership prevents that sort of vetting, especially since this a general-interest site. So, I would assume, sansgras, that you felt you could slip in under the radar, with a group of folks that (for the most part) are too well-hinged that there would be a risk of overlap with the other community.

So, your logical defenses, aren't. Merely specious and truthy. And you've admitted to being on the same board as the original crazy person.

While it appears that the mods have decided you haven't done anything that breaks the rules here, I hope you realize that if you are trying to work drama here, you are merely a Little League pitcher trying to play with the New York Yankees' starting rotation. Enjoy the lights and the roar of the crowd while it lasts, because your every move here is going to be watched. Don't forget: the whole world was taken in by Kaycee Nicole, and you're prancing around among the gang of bloodhounds that sniffed out the fraud.

And if you're for real, then keep on keeping on, and truth will eventually redeem you, and those of us who doubted you will apologize, and it'll all be fine. And, get help, like Miko said -- because whether you're crazy-but-not-that-other-crazy-girl or crazy-but-a-brand-new-crazy, you're still... yep. Crazy.
posted by pineapple at 9:26 AM on March 10, 2008 [6 favorites]

docpops: Well, pathetic may be too strong a word. But it really is shocking that anyone could read her query and not be awestruck by the vapidity and shallowness of it, and in response think that some well-crafted coda is going to somehow be seen as enlightening by a person that would post such purple horseshit.

Well, to be fair, someone did recommend she read the Bible of vapidity, He's Just Not That Into You.
posted by loiseau at 9:31 AM on March 10, 2008

Definitely can pearlybob, I'm just saying that you can't graduate "at the normal time" and do it unless you finish your undergrad degree within a year. I would define the normal time as being at least 17 at college matriculation.
posted by grouse at 9:31 AM on March 10, 2008

The member does not seem to have violated any guidelines. The member appears to be in need of psychiatric help. Why not answer the questions honestly with the need for psychiatric help in mind?

If any or all of it is accurate, or a pack of paranoid delusions, honest expressions of concern, and useful answers, may help, and seem unlikely to hurt.

Miko, is, in fact, awesome.
posted by theora55 at 9:32 AM on March 10, 2008

I don't understand why her questions pass the sniff test at all, real or fake. She doesn't seem to care about the answers given, and her questions just seem like a chatfilter-y version of "my pseudo-boyfriend/stalking dad sucks, amirite?"
posted by fermezporte at 9:32 AM on March 10, 2008

I can almost hear Russell Crowe shouting, "Are you not entertained?"
posted by ikkyu2 at 9:33 AM on March 10, 2008 [13 favorites]

Can we go back to the part where there were pro-ana people? What does that even mean? Like are they pro-eating disorder with full knowledge that it is a disorder? Or are they just pro-really, really thin people? What would these kind of people discuss on a dedicated pro-ana forum? That food is gross?
posted by dios at 9:34 AM on March 10, 2008

Miko is pretty neat. also, jonmc is back? should that be called a Uuuuuuhw?
posted by shmegegge at 9:34 AM on March 10, 2008

It's funny how Internet trolls can be so creative with their fictional scenarios, yet so unimaginitve when creating new usernames. Oh well, I'm sure that doesn't apply here at all...
posted by junkbox at 9:38 AM on March 10, 2008

loiseau : Can someone explain what this post means? I can't figure it out.

This is a coded challenge. Kind of like how, in World War 2 the French Resistance might say: "The fox in in the hedge" to which the response of "The falcon is in the tree" would get you safe passage through enemy lines.

"Three Cheers For Secret Squirrel" requires a reply of "Because he's a bit of a nut" and will get you a 10% discount at Applebees and a choice of smoked and aged cheddars from the Cheese of the Month club.

You just have to know the right people to ask.
posted by quin at 9:43 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

dios said: "Can we go back to the part where there were pro-ana people? What does that even mean? Like are they pro-eating disorder with full knowledge that it is a disorder? Or are they just pro-really, really thin people? What would these kind of people discuss on a dedicated pro-ana forum? That food is gross?"

They're pro-anorexia, basically. They know it's technically an eating disorder in that it isn't normal or what so-called doctors would call "so-called" "healthy," but they don't believe it's harmful to them. They talk about ways to avoid detection at school and by parents and friends and in social situations. They talk about ways to take in minimal amounts of calories for the maximum nutrition needed to stay alive, and they share techniques and recommendations for purging, laxatives, where to buy children's-sized clothes that can pass for adult designs. They share pictures and tell each other how beautiful they are, and reaffirm messages like "You can never be too thin!" and "You have to be thin to be popular!" and "Size 6 is fat and disgusting!"

It's really, really sick stuff. They basically encourage and enable all the absolute worst, most toxic behaviors in each other -- because like so many anorexics, they can get what they need in private.

This is the kind of stuff that makes my shoulder angel and shoulder devil go mad. "But it's the First Amendment!" "But they're committing group suicide, essentially!" "But they have that right!" "But what if it's children posting? Minors?" "That's on the ISP and host and siteowner, it's not your problem!" Ad aeternum.
posted by pineapple at 9:45 AM on March 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

It's funny how Internet trolls can be so creative with their fictional scenarios, yet so unimaginitve when creating new usernames. Oh well, I'm sure that doesn't apply here at all...

It must be like the hackers who just have to brag about what they did on usenet or irc, it's no fun if no one knows what you did, or in this case that you managed to pull the same type of stunt twice.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:45 AM on March 10, 2008

Pathological people have access to the internet, too.
posted by Dave Faris at 9:51 AM on March 10, 2008

> This is the kind of stuff that makes my shoulder angel and shoulder devil go mad. "But it's the First Amendment!" "But they're committing group suicide, essentially!" "But they have that right!" "But what if it's children posting? Minors?" "That's on the ISP and host and siteowner, it's not your problem!" Ad aeternum.

In this, it's very much the same as a.s.h for me - a place where I don't mind admitting I spent a great deal of my early 20s...

I've known anorexics, and it is, like most "mental" illnesses, the case that there can be no recovery before there's an admission of a problem, and places like a.s.h or pro-ana give sufferers a place where people basically say "but this isn't a problem for us!" As you say, issues of free speech come into play, and also, perhaps (which came to be my belief with a.s.h) the fact that any support is better than none at all for some of these people.
posted by benzo8 at 9:56 AM on March 10, 2008

This thread certainly backs up your assertion, Dave.
posted by Mister_A at 9:57 AM on March 10, 2008

Where I said "stet," it should read "stat." Thanks to a helpful MeFite for pointing out my error. I meant to emphasize: right away.
posted by Miko at 10:00 AM on March 10, 2008

She'd even have time to graduate from high school at the normal time and do a two-year master's.

No, she wouldn't, unless her undergraduate degree took less than a year.

Dammit. You're right grouse -- she'd have to graduate early. I should lay off doing anything that involves counting in the am.

But I do know 20-year-olds with graduate degrees. (Concurrent college/HS enrollment then straight to masters.)
posted by desuetude at 10:10 AM on March 10, 2008

"Stet" works too, though. "Let it be written: you need help! If anyone said otherwise, it was a mistake!"
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:11 AM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

benzo8 said: "In this, it's very much the same as a.s.h for me - a place where I don't mind admitting I spent a great deal of my early 20s..."

American Society of Hematology? I don't mean to be flip, but I Googled and couldn't find this a.s.h. You don't have to say it aloud if you are trying to avoid the Google, but I'm just curious.

"As you say, issues of free speech come into play, and also, perhaps (which came to be my belief with a.s.h) the fact that any support is better than none at all for some of these people."

I guess. I've never spent time on those boards nor have anorexia, so I can't really speak to what the participants get from it... but it just seems that "support" of the deadliest of the behaviors is far worse than "none at all." It's not like they're all supporting each other in recovery. They're supporting each other to continue killing themselves. It seems to me like the mob mentality only serves to strengthen and perpetuate the illnesses.
posted by pineapple at 10:11 AM on March 10, 2008

I have a friend who got a masters in Human Computer Interaction at CMU in like 18 months.

I'll bet he used Linux and smelled bad!
posted by ludwig_van at 10:12 AM on March 10, 2008

I agree with CunningLinguist, this just screams un owen's drama. The complicated as hell back story. The need to post a long thread putting all the pieces together, with a "hope that helps" tone. It just all seems calculated and made up at the same time, that it's easy to see why it raises suspicions.
posted by piratebowling at 10:14 AM on March 10, 2008

dios - it's a really very disturbing scene, one that revolves around promoting anorexia as a lifestyle rather than an illness. So, eg., community members will exchange tips on how to hide the extent of their anorexia, swap inspirational (or 'thinspirational') images of emaciated people, organise group fasting sessions, &c.. So, yeah, 'food is gross' is a big part of it. There are even sub-subcultures, like Emo Thinspiration, and sites devoted to bulimic purging - 'pro-mia' - rather than not eating.

That's at the more extreme end of things, anyway: some pro-ana communities are really, or at least claim to be, support groups for folk with anorexia, and do admit that it's a disorder rather than a lifestyle thing.

Health professionals tend to take a very dim view - funnily enough - of the whole pro-ana scene, and in the UK at least, there have been attempts to have sites shut down - I think Yahoo! have shut down some sites/mailing lists, but most of the social network sites tend to leave them be, and it seems to be a pretty big scene on LiveJournal especially.

Oop, on preview: what everyone else just said.
posted by jack_mo at 10:14 AM on March 10, 2008

American Society of Hematology? I don't mean to be flip, but I Googled and couldn't find this a.s.h. You don't have to say it aloud if you are trying to avoid the Google, but I'm just curious.

alt.sex.harrypotter. Duh.
posted by mullacc at 10:16 AM on March 10, 2008

alt.sex.h?????????
posted by yhbc at 10:19 AM on March 10, 2008

In this, it's very much the same as a.s.h for me - a place where I don't mind admitting I spent a great deal of my early 20s...

alt.sex.horses? I'd keep quiet about that if I were you. They tend to be a bit judgemental about that stuff around here...
posted by PeterMcDermott at 10:27 AM on March 10, 2008

>American Society of Hematology?

rofl! No, sorry - a.s.h = alt.suicide.holiday, a USENET group originally set up to discuss why the suicide rate increased around the holiday season, which rapidly morphed to be a waiting room (a bus stop, in fact, was the parlance) for people feeling suicidal and/or planning suicide.

> alt.sex.harrypotter. Duh.

OK, now that's just (wizard-)fucking funny!
posted by benzo8 at 10:28 AM on March 10, 2008

Previous discussion of a Pro-Ana site, on MeFi.

I stand by what I said in that thread. If I had a daughter with an eating disorder, I would keep her as far away from other eating disordered people as I could.
posted by orange swan at 10:28 AM on March 10, 2008

Oh, I thought she meant pro-Ana.

Never mind.
posted by SteveInMaine at 10:31 AM on March 10, 2008

Get help, girlfriend. Stet.

I thought it was 'Stat.' Unless "Stet" is a new medication or something.
posted by jonmc at 10:31 AM on March 10, 2008

Brandon Blatcher: Now would be a good time for everyone to take a smoke or chocolate break.

The best tasting thing ever (in my opinion) is a piece of Ghirardelli dark chocolate washed down by a vanilla frappucino. Of course, I quit smoking. :(
posted by desjardins at 10:33 AM on March 10, 2008

I thought it was 'Stat.' Unless "Stet" is a new medication or something.

She corrected herself already. Also, I prefer to think she was saying that switching to a Stetson (from a fedora, natch) would somehow help.
posted by cortex at 10:38 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Thanks, orange swan. I knew we'd seen that before, but didn't realize it'd been so long ago.
posted by MrMoonPie at 10:39 AM on March 10, 2008

Also, I prefer to think she was saying that switching to a Stetson (from a fedora, natch) would somehow help.

Well, it'd hold ten gallons of booze, which couldn't be bad.
posted by jonmc at 10:39 AM on March 10, 2008

I knew what pro-ana was (thank you very much Randal K. Milholland) without Googling, but a.s.h. I had to look up.
posted by Johnny Assay at 10:43 AM on March 10, 2008

The best tasting thing ever (in my opinion) is a piece of Ghirardelli dark chocolate washed down by a vanilla frappucino. Of course, I quit smoking. :(

Gee thanks, now guess what I'm craving? Hint: It's not a ciggie.
posted by konolia at 10:46 AM on March 10, 2008

A hat full of booze?
posted by jonmc at 10:52 AM on March 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

Starving yourself? You're actually craving nothing.
posted by Item at 11:02 AM on March 10, 2008

speaking of a.s.h, there's also an irc channel called #alt.suicide.bus.stop for anyone who might be interested.
posted by yeoz at 11:04 AM on March 10, 2008

what this person did to an ANA group was rather callous and possibly despicable. ANA people don't need any help being jaded and that certainly didn't provide any healing...not that they necessarily were looking for it. I agree completely with pineapple.

I don't think bad behavior should be rewarded generally but I also think that we're not going to stop it from happening and we might as well provide a safe outlet for it.
posted by wantwit at 11:08 AM on March 10, 2008

I know how frustrating it is to have given your time, attention, and emotional energy to helping a person who decieved you. I had a friend in high school who lied to a few people about having cancer, and I was furious when I found out that she was lying.

That said, at this point, the basis for the assertion that sansgras is a fraud is basically a "feeling." Perhaps that feeling is right, but for now, I wonder if we couldn't show a little kindness to sansgras, who may very well be a real person working through some very serious issues.

If you find her postings annoying or immature, I understand -- sometimes I also lose patience with my friends when they won't take my advice. I just want to remind everyone that most people aren't really very mature at 20 (no matter how many degrees they've racked up). If sangras has told us a true story about herself, then she has had to deal with emotional abuse and is isolated from people who could help her. She may not have developed strong coping skills. It's not very surprising that she's acting out in unhealthy ways.

It would be unfortunate if the thrill of the hunt distracted us from an opportunity to help someone.
posted by prefpara at 11:22 AM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

but a.s.h. I had to look up.

How the hell did you find it? I tried, but like pineapple I just came up with American Society of Hematology.

Also, fedoras rule.
posted by languagehat at 11:22 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: a safe outlet for bad behaviour
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:22 AM on March 10, 2008

How the hell did you find it?

freedictionary.com is usually helpful with acronyms...
posted by nzero at 11:26 AM on March 10, 2008

Er, thefreedictionary.com, excuse me.
posted by nzero at 11:27 AM on March 10, 2008

And, after posting and actually googling it, it's the fourth result...
posted by nzero at 11:28 AM on March 10, 2008

Languagehat: I googled a.s.h. usenet to find it.
posted by aspo at 11:28 AM on March 10, 2008

And if I was Beth, the integral part of her story is that she claims to be a doctor. I'm claiming to be 20, a former graduate student, not a doctor.

I know klang and iconomy already called this particular bit of weirdness out, but again: what the fuck? (Or, as I imagine Andy Samberg shrieking whilst dressed as Diablo Cody: waddle the duck?!?! I was a stripper!)

Even if sansgras is indeed -- as prefpara very compassionately notes above -- a troubled person with poor coping skills acting out in unhealthy ways, the phrasing of "I'm claiming" rather than "I am" just amplifies the hinky factor. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but that line just sort of stops me cold.
posted by scody at 11:40 AM on March 10, 2008

No, she wouldn't, unless her undergraduate degree took less than a year.

Suppose that she graduated high school at 16. That's early, but not all that uncommon. Taking summer courses, it's pretty common to get an undergrad degree in three years and take some grad courses at the same time.

I can believe that a 20-year-old has a Master's, but I can't believe that one would be able to get a date.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 11:42 AM on March 10, 2008

She corrected herself already.

Interestingly enough, saying 'stet' when you meant something else is the one error than can't be corrected. It's the editorial equivalent of division by zero.
posted by George_Spiggott at 11:45 AM on March 10, 2008 [33 favorites]

My head hurts.
posted by miss lynnster at 11:47 AM on March 10, 2008

And if I was Beth, the integral part of her story is that she claims to be a doctor. I'm claiming to be 20, a former graduate student, not a doctor.

Honestly, to be fair, I can imagine saying something like this myself— it's pretty clumsy, rhetorically, but makes sense if you read it as someone trying to point out that the claims are different, and therefore the noted similarities don't matter. I don't think the 'I'm claiming' is very suspicious. Dumb-sounding, but not suspicious.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:47 AM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Suppose that she graduated high school at 16.

I would not define that as graduating at the "normal time," and desuetude has admitted that her statement does not hold water.
posted by grouse at 11:48 AM on March 10, 2008

I'm not claiming that I'm mean, I'm just claiming that I once shot a man for snoring too loud.
posted by Astro Zombie at 11:58 AM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

So what did ever become of unowen?
posted by acorncup at 12:08 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

I would not define that as graduating at the "normal time," and desuetude has admitted that her statement does not hold water.

On the other hand, graduating at 17 is normal, and it's conceivable to have a Master's three years later with concurrent HS and undergrad courses and concurrent undergrad and grad courses. I don't believe for a second that this is what she's done, though, since she's clearly lying about her history.

But my point is that it is possible, even for folks who never skipped a grade.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 12:15 PM on March 10, 2008

"It would be unfortunate if the thrill of the hunt distracted us from an opportunity to help someone."

Even if we accept that this is real - which seems wildly dubious at this point - there isn't any help to be done here. There is some AskMe history here, and the person isn't taking any of the good advise given. Right? If it was just once I would agree, but this is a serial narative where the poster is clearly not being helped. We are enabling rather than helping. And what would we be helping exactly? The "question" in this last instance is just a blog post.

Straight up - The idea that maybe we should "help" by letting someone like this post their latest train wreck installment seems like a bad idea.
posted by Ragma at 12:20 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

prefpara wrote: It would be unfortunate if the thrill of the hunt distracted us from an opportunity to help someone.

The problem with people who pull this sort of stunt is that the undermine our confidence in everybody. Take you, for example:

sansgras arrives here in December 07. You arrive here in January 08.
sansgras claims to have just completed a postgrad degree. You post asking for advice on which postgrad degree to choose.
sansgras/beth is from San Francisco. Weirdly, you also appear to be from San Francisco.
'dr' beth/sansgras's livejournal claims her favourite subjects were psychology and histology. You post asking about psychology masters degrees.
beth/sangras worst memory? "finding out my best friend had cancer". Whereas you write: "I had a friend in high school who lied to a few people about having cancer, and I was furious when I found out that she was lying."

Coincidences? Who knows?

I think this bit though, is probably absolutely true:

If sangras has told us a true story about herself, then she has had to deal with emotional abuse and is isolated from people who could help her. She may not have developed strong coping skills. It's not very surprising that she's acting out in unhealthy ways.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:24 PM on March 10, 2008 [7 favorites]

Even if sansgras is indeed -- as prefpara very compassionately notes above -- a troubled person with poor coping skills acting out in unhealthy ways, the phrasing of "I'm claiming" rather than "I am" just amplifies the hinky factor. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but that line just sort of stops me cold

I actually read the "I'm claiming" bit to be sarcasm that should've been in quotes to make that obvious.

/not disputing the hinky, tho
posted by desuetude at 12:25 PM on March 10, 2008

If prefpara and sangras are posting from the same IP, I will never stop laughing.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:32 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

In all honesty, I'd accept her story as true with the catch that self-deception and self-contradiction go hand-in-hand and she probably isn't quite sure how to frame the details of her own life. Anyone who's devoted all her time to working, school, and avoiding an abusively crazy father isn't going to have time for a real love life, nor is she likely to be emotionally receptive to a healthy one. I'd like to wish mefi's sansgras, assuming she's telling her story as she perceives it, a good period of self-reflection where she figures out that not everything in life has to be a challenge, and that emotional availability at the expense of being hurt is worth it. No one who has led such a tense life should be forcing sexual get-togethers instead of making the time to date.

But yeah, she's pretty much ignored anyone who's said to get into a different space, slow down, and go out and find herself.
posted by mikeh at 12:38 PM on March 10, 2008

Even if we accept that this is real - which seems wildly dubious at this point - there isn't any help to be done here.

I disagree. I don't think immediate change as a direct result of mefi advice is the only kind of "help." I think that even if all that happens is that we give a person in trouble good advice, we've helped them. It takes time for change to take place.

What I see as a real danger here, however, is that sansgras may really be in unusual and very difficult circumstances. She came here, and found a safe space where she could talk openly about her problems, and she recieved good advice, some of which she took. Wouldn't it be terrible if the final lesson she took away from this was that she needs to make sure never to open up to people about her problems because they'll disbelieve her, jump all over her for lacking a buddha-like calm in the face of parental rejection, and mock her sincere pain and her fumbling attempts to deal with it?

If you think people with problems like hers don't belong here, surely there must be a kinder way of making that happen than what has been said on this thread and in her original post.

PeterMcDermott, I agree that in a community such as this one, which relies on an implicit honor code, liars harm everyone. What confuses me is that you seem to be saying that the harm is that the people who have been misled will overreact in the future, seeing lies where there are none. I agree that that is a problem, and I am suggesting that some of that may be happening here, where I see people jumping to conclusions based on intuition and theories. So I think we may actually be in agreement.
posted by prefpara at 12:39 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

PeterMcDermott, you might just be on to something. Prefara's history is very slight, yet there are interesting points about it.

- Prefpara's one post to AskMe asking about post grad programs is "posted for a friend". This friend is from an immigrant, Mediterranean family, like Sansgras.
- Prefpara has only made four comments on the blue... all of which were in the fake gangster memoir thread.
- Several of Prefpara's 16 comments on the green, and her only comments to the gray, were made in Sansgras's threads.
posted by orange swan at 12:45 PM on March 10, 2008

Oh, I thought she meant pro-Ana.

Never mind.

She's my fave.
posted by anazgnos at 12:45 PM on March 10, 2008

Next on metafilter mysteries: peter mcdermott, ftw?
posted by milarepa at 12:49 PM on March 10, 2008

- Several of Prefpara's 16 comments on the green, and her only comments to the gray, were made in Sansgras's threads.

Whoops - only one of Prepara's comments on Askme were in Sansgras thread - the "dating a divorced man" one, and of course that thread led her, naturally enough, to the gray. My mistake.
posted by orange swan at 12:51 PM on March 10, 2008

Three new terrible band names :

loud garage rock band : The Geese That Can't Stop Killing You
all-girl surf-rock band : The Estronauts
a band composed entirely of divorced dads : Inner-Child Support
posted by Afroblanco at 12:53 PM on March 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

"I'd like to wish mefi's sansgras. . . a good period of self-reflection where she figures out that not everything in life has to be a challenge, and that emotional availability at the expense of being hurt is worth it."

Man, I'd sure like that too. Heck, it's something that I'd wish for everyone.

Good periods of self-reflection for all!
posted by Ms. Saint at 12:53 PM on March 10, 2008

So I think we may actually be in agreement.

Yeah, I don't disagree with you, prefpara. I'm actually both sympathetic towards sansgras and her condition, and found her posts funny and likeable. Personally, I don't get unduly irritated by this stuff because I don't invest very much in my online relationships. I was just struck by the interesting parallels between her, and her first real champion.

You two don't know each other then?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:54 PM on March 10, 2008

Next on metafilter mysteries: peter mcdermott, ftw?

I cannot tell a lie. I am the Star Wars Kid.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:58 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

You two don't know each other then?

No, I don't. I've been following her story on AskMe for a while because it won my sympathy (I have been reading AskMe for months... really, really bored at work).

I don't think I'm the first person to defend her here. Really, it's just that I don't think she's lying, and I do think that some of the things that people have said about her could really hurt her and are not justified by the possibility that her posts are fake.

In general, I think it's too easy to make fun of unhappy people who don't know what to do with their unhappiness. They're awkward, they say the wrong thing, they don't fix themselves as quickly as our patience demands. I get that their sucky poetry is annoying, I just don't think that makes it okay to be cruel.
posted by prefpara at 1:05 PM on March 10, 2008 [9 favorites]

This is MetaFilter?
posted by popcassady at 1:07 PM on March 10, 2008

THIS IS METAFILTER!
posted by Stynxno at 1:13 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Where I said "stet," it should read "stat." Thanks to a helpful MeFite for pointing out my error. I meant to emphasize: right away.

I am greatly relieved to here that.
posted by stet at 1:14 PM on March 10, 2008 [7 favorites]

You two don't know each other then?

No, I don't.

"No, we don't" would be a little easier to take.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:17 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

In general, I think it's too easy to make fun of unhappy people who don't know what to do with their unhappiness. They're awkward, they say the wrong thing, they don't fix themselves as quickly as our patience demands. I get that their sucky poetry is annoying, I just don't think that makes it okay to be cruel.

Unhappy people are one thing. Unhappy people who game Metafilter and have in the past lied to vulnerable people to elicit from them attention and probably money are a totally different thing. If this sangras and that sangras are different people and this sangras is telling the truth then I have no problem with her and hope that she is able to get her head on straight. If this sangras is that sangras and this is more of the same, then fuck her. There are a lot of people with problems and I will reserve my sympathy for the ones that aren't fucking with Metafilter.
posted by ND¢ at 1:22 PM on March 10, 2008

MY MODS, MY MODS, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN THIS THREAD?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:26 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

What do you want us to say? There's no new evidence to confirm or deny sansgras' story; I haven't heard from her, and there's no on-site activity since her last comment in this thread, so I don't know what's up.

I don't have anything that suggests prefpara is telling anything but the truth, so taking her on her word seems like the reasonable approach.

People seem to be not completely flipping out at the moment, and that's good enough for me.
posted by cortex at 1:34 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

I'm silently flipping out, that's why.
posted by yeti at 1:35 PM on March 10, 2008

What do you want us to say?

"Brandon, you're awesome" would be a good start.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:39 PM on March 10, 2008

Sentence first--verdict afterwards!
posted by Justinian at 1:40 PM on March 10, 2008

Some of the meanness / snarkiness here seems unnecessary. Maybe we should wait for cortex to speak to sansgras privately, first, before speaking to sansgras on the assumption that she's lying. I think it's still possible she's an actual person; maybe some of the details she's related over the span of her askme questions don't seem to add up, but like others have pointed out, if you're a victim of the type of abusive situation she's been in for most of her life, your sense and perspective of reality tends to shift from time to time (e.g. her definition of "dating" shifting over time), and you sometimes believe yourself incapable (or are incapable) of doing things that other "normal" people would be able to do (e.g. renting your own apartment, becoming independent and living a life apart from your family, etc).
And yeah, I've seen a bunch of friends/acquaintances go for 1 year master's programs, get their masters by the time they're 20 or 21, etc...
Just because MeFites sniffed out KayCee years ago doesn't mean people should start piling on sansgras now as if she definitely is a fraud, especially when it isn't confirmed she's fake.
If she does turn out to be a real person, some comments here have been rather cruel.
posted by aielen at 1:40 PM on March 10, 2008

Oops, posted that before I saw cortex's latest comment.
posted by aielen at 1:41 PM on March 10, 2008

WITCH! BURN HER!!!
posted by Item at 1:42 PM on March 10, 2008

WITCH! BURN HER!!!

Dad, leave mom alone.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:49 PM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

Brandon, you're -

Nope, not gonna do it.
posted by yhbc at 1:59 PM on March 10, 2008

"So what did ever become of unowen?"

Changed name to avecdubeurre, now posts in anti-ana forums.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:00 PM on March 10, 2008 [13 favorites]

MeFites should be required to post name, rank, serial number, street address and valid phone number.
posted by Cranberry at 2:02 PM on March 10, 2008

dashing?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:02 PM on March 10, 2008

Now that is funny, mr_crash.
posted by Cranberry at 2:03 PM on March 10, 2008

Re-reading that Kaycee Nicole thread is really interesting—especially seeing how forcefully people defended the idea that Kaycee was a real person.
posted by grouse at 2:03 PM on March 10, 2008

Or the fact that the first comment in the thread was essentially "Hey it doesn't matter if it is true or not, her story really touched a lot of people." To all the kids out there: yes truth does matter. It always matters if it is true or not. Cause if it isn't true then it is a lie. And if you believe it then you are a chump. You don't want to be chumps do you kids? Okay then, listen to your old uncle ND¢ and remember: only you can prevent lying internet attention whores.
posted by ND¢ at 2:12 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

This thread changed my life.

-1 HP
+1 stamina
posted by blue_beetle at 2:23 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

I thought the latest research indicated that having occasional lying internet attention whores on a regular basis are actually beneficial to the internet as a whole, because the resulting fires are relatively small and burn away the underbrush of the internet before it accumulates to a dangerous level.
posted by yhbc at 2:26 PM on March 10, 2008 [6 favorites]

should have said "the resulting flameouts"
posted by yhbc at 2:28 PM on March 10, 2008

Yeah, that would have been better.
posted by ND¢ at 2:31 PM on March 10, 2008

"I'm silently flipping out, that's why."

REAL ULTIMATE POWER!
posted by klangklangston at 2:34 PM on March 10, 2008

sansgras turned me into a newt!
posted by everichon at 2:42 PM on March 10, 2008

Sansgras, this is what people are concerned about.
posted by Class Goat at 2:56 PM on March 10, 2008

What about pro-Ana's Salsa? That shit is awesome.
posted by liet at 3:06 PM on March 10, 2008

Fuck.

At least books and movies usually have resolution of some kind.
posted by kbanas at 3:09 PM on March 10, 2008

I'm anti-ana. Does that make me kata? What a downer.
posted by mumkin at 3:23 PM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

I've read all of the "evidence" enumerated in both this thread and the one on the Green and I honestly don't think it's a fake. If it turns out to be fake I will feel horribly stupid and be just a little more cynical, but that's okay.

I mean, the I'm claiming to be 20 vs. I'm 20 spiel just seems like pure attribution. If someone accused you of doing something, would you not repeat the same verb in your denial in order to emphasize the difference between the accusation and your perceived reality?

As for the dating history gap - there's a three month gap between when sansgras claimed to have never been in a relationship, and when she mentioned having dated two guys casually. Is dating in the span of three months so totally inconceivable or are AskMe threads supposed to exist in a splice of time that never moves forward? She did mention being interested in a guy in one of the previous Psycho!Father!ZOMG! threads, talked about the same guy in the second thread, and mentioned the subsequent breakup a few weeks later in the same thread. Maybe it's just me, but I see nothing fishy there.

The username one is the most damning, to me, but I can totally see "sansgras" being considered a nice, 'sophisticated' but personally important name. Participation in the same LJ group is sketchy as LJ doesn't allow you to use old account names, but it could very well have been sans_gras or sansgras[insertnumberhere]. Given the amount of vitriol Beth ended up eliciting, I think it would've been safe to say that Beth would've been smart enough to choose a different username for further drama. I mean, if this is all invented, the degree of drama and the style of writing indicates that the OP is not entirely stupid. Having been caught under sansgras, posting as sansgras again somewhere else is just... I dunno. inconceivable.
posted by Phire at 3:24 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

If you travel far enough around going kata, you end up coming back to your original position from the ana side, mumkin.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:27 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

I do feel like people jump to conclude they're being trolled online more quickly than necessary...

Re-reading that Kaycee Nicole thread is really interesting—especially seeing how forcefully people defended the idea that Kaycee was a real person.

I never got to the point where it became clear that it was a hoax. I "know" it was a hoax because I've heard that it was eventually discovered to be, but in reading through it now, I got bored of looking through history before I hit the part of the thread where the smoking gun comes out - and there are way too many people in the beginning part of the thread jumping to conclusions, claiming it's obviously fake based on flimsy things like who registered the domains or whether she used a PO box or had a street address, or just what "seemed wrong" about this or that.

Seems to me that's what's happening here, which isn't to say it would be impossible that again there would be some sort of elaborate hoax that will eventually come to light, but at this stage - chill out, people. It's a)not that important b)not really your business and c)we have no real evidence one way or another at this point.

(PS - anyone able to point me to the bit of the thread where "Kaycee" is actually outed?)
posted by mdn at 3:29 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

I've been following her story on AskMe for a while because it won my sympathy

This is why that thread should be deleted regardless of whether sansgras is for real or not: AskMe is not for storytelling or constructing one's very own snowflaky telenovela; it's for asking and answering specific questions. Sometimes extended narrative is required in order to provide context, but all too often, it's just attention whoring logorrhea.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:34 PM on March 10, 2008 [6 favorites]

What would these kind of people discuss on a dedicated pro-ana forum?

dios -- check out the story of Sara [video | 8:18] from PBS Frontline's recent documentary Growing Up Online.
posted by ericb at 3:37 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

mdn, basically here is where any doubt is removed.
posted by grouse at 3:37 PM on March 10, 2008

The mob mentality demonstrated in this thread is disappointing.

"When trying to point out differences between what she claims and what Beth claims, she used the words 'I am claiming'! BURN HER!"

"It's because of people who behave like we're assuming that she's behaving that no one on the internet can be trusted! BURN HER!"

"You joined MeFi within a month of her joining MeFi, and have posted in threads that she has posted in! BURN HER!"

Ugh.
posted by Flunkie at 3:38 PM on March 10, 2008

Flunkie, I think that last bit was an attempt to show how members who lie beget paranoia that spins out of control. Essentially, it was a device to show prefpara why the truth of sansgras' words matters in a very real sense, not an actual attempt to bring her down as well.
posted by donnagirl at 3:46 PM on March 10, 2008

Flunkie, I think that last bit was an attempt to show how members who lie beget paranoia that spins out of control.

Good.
posted by Flunkie at 3:50 PM on March 10, 2008

I thought it was 'Stat.' Unless "Stet" is a new medication or something.

She corrected herself already. Also, I prefer to think she was saying that switching to a Stetson (from a fedora, natch) would somehow help.

Except that Stetson actually makes fedoras. Therefore cortex and languagehat MUST BE MIKO'S SOCKPUPPETS.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:55 PM on March 10, 2008

That's ridiculous, oneirodynia, and I'll tell you why in detail as soon as I get back from my talk on The History of Cussin' over at the American Folk Music Museum.
posted by cortex at 3:59 PM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

"I mean, the I'm claiming to be 20 vs. I'm 20 spiel just seems like pure attribution."

My snark was pretty much just snark; I don't have a real opinion on her veracity. I just thought it was funny to be, like, "This pathological liar claimed to be Batman. I, not a pathological liar, am claiming to be The Punisher."
posted by klangklangston at 4:04 PM on March 10, 2008 [6 favorites]

MetaFilter: My snark was pretty much just snark

I have a compulsive need to construct these taglines. They aren't even funny anymore. Please help.
posted by grouse at 4:18 PM on March 10, 2008

Metafilter: I have a compulsive need to construct these taglines.

There, grouse, if that didn't cure you, you're beyond helping.
posted by donnagirl at 4:22 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: you're beyond helping
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:28 PM on March 10, 2008

Metafilter: a compulsive need to grouse.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:46 PM on March 10, 2008

I got my masters in 25 weeks.
posted by parmanparman at 4:46 PM on March 10, 2008

No, I don't.

FWIW, I wasn't trying to be snide or anything, but it seemed silly to post the things I'd posted and not give you the opportunity to say, one way or the other.

Really, it's just that I don't think she's lying, and I do think that some of the things that people have said about her could really hurt her and are not justified by the possibility that her posts are fake.

I've no idea whether she's really Beth or not. As I said, it's not that important to me. I thought that the things she wrote in her post could be true, but they could just as easily be the work of someone who spends way too much time in their own head due to the lack of a satisfying life -- which would be typical of somebody who fit the proposed profile, but should in no way be taken as confirmatory.

I guess on reflection though, I agree with you totally. If she is who she says she is, it's a horrible thing to have happen to you. And if she is who she's accused of being, it's not very nice either.

Not one of our proudest moments, I suspect.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:47 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm not convinced she's a fake and I'm sorry she left.

If she was a fake the harm she did was minimal. If she wasn't she no longer has metafilter to run things by, and I think that's possibly a pretty big harm to her. I hope I'm wrong.

I have used metafilter and other online groups for major support when I didn't feel like I could trust the perceptions of the people in my immediate circle. Losing that resource would have been a significant loss.
posted by small_ruminant at 4:53 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Thanks, not_on_display. Exactly. Oh great god of game theory, guide my typing hands. So to speak. Sansgras seems a bit fishy to me too, but I'm not worried. I think the question, even if were completely genuine, would warrant good advice; therefore I will advise as if it is genuine. We can do harm by giving crap advice to a genuine case, and we can't do harm (in fact we can even do some good) by giving good advice to a liar. It's not impossible that someone could have a similar situation come up--hell, I was somewhat like the guy in the question myself, some years ago--and actually do what the question form page suggests, ie search the site for similar questions.

To me, a good answer is what will most help the OP, given the facts presented. If you want to differ from the facts as presented in a question when giving your advice, because you think the person's kidding themselves, or you think the motivations of another person mentioned in the question are different from what the questioner thinks, or you think the proposed course of action is a spectacularly bad idea, that's entirely fair, but you should say so. I've done all of these, and I've taken the other side of the argument with people who are doing all of these. In the end they won't necessarily take anyone's advice; you don't "win" if they do (well, no more than a faint glow of satisfaction). The point is, different, well-argued points of view will help the person make up their own mind.

Personally I find the relationship threads to be among the most interesting on AskMeFi, because of the scope for answers they provide. Usually they amount to an ethical question, which is something I personally enjoy thinking about, and usually there isn't any objectively correct answer, although in many cases there'll be a unanimous consensus. If you don't like them, don't participate.

(Same goes for knee-jerk DTMFAers. I wonder sometimes if people say to them "I've been a bit concerned about my boyfriend ..." and they jump in with "FOR GOD'S SAKE DUMP HIM!" before the questioner finishes ... "as he's been in bed three days getting over the flu." I fear for some of you people, I really do.)

So anyway, what to do, what to do. I vote for further investigation. I suggest sansgras meet up in some public place with a generally liked and trusted New Yorker MetaFilterite or two, preferably female with a genial and motherly manner, who will report back to us that either: (a) no-one showed up, and they had a coffee and read a book, or chatted for an hour or so if there were two of them; (b) sansgras is a whackjob who looks like the grandchild of Uncle Dirty run through the Comic-Book-Guy-Izer filter; (c) sansgras is real; (d) sansgras is sort of real, with some exaggerations and some omissions.

Sansgras, are you willing? Any willing representatives to form the Committee of Concerned MetaFilterites?
posted by aeschenkarnos at 5:00 PM on March 10, 2008

Therefore cortex and languagehat MUST BE MIKO'S SOCKPUPPETS.

I am Miko's sockpuppet and I'M PROUD OF IT.
posted by languagehat at 5:03 PM on March 10, 2008

I'm not convinced she's a fake and I'm sorry she left.

She hasn't left in the "account disabled" sense. TPS and jessamyn were talking about another thread and another user, if that's where you got that impression.
posted by CKmtl at 5:05 PM on March 10, 2008

maybe there has just been a terrible dearth of 20 year olds with an interesting combination of advanced degrees and a complete lack of common sense in my life

I have known one, and I have to say (given that obviously representative sample), it really does seem to lead to a complete lack of common sense, and really weirdly messed up socialization. The person I knew was not nearly so bad as sansgras appears/is claiming to be, but I could see it as possible with a different family situation.

I do think sansgras is likely to be fake, and I do not think she should be deleted without some kind of actual evidence (which seems like it's not going to come unless she provides it). Her questions, presuming they continue after this MeTa, would probably go way over the top eventually if fake, since they certainly seem to be heading in that direction, so we will know.
posted by advil at 5:08 PM on March 10, 2008

Any willing representatives to form the Committee of Concerned MetaFilterites?

No, and I think it's a terrible idea. I certainly don't have any desire to play therapist and/or detective for the amusement of the Metafilter community; what sane person would? And why would sansgras have any interest in such a meeting? She doesn't owe us anything.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:10 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Aw, Pink, I was going to suggest I go get a matronly wig and play the part.
posted by nobody at 5:14 PM on March 10, 2008

Never mind- I fully endorse nobody for the job. He is not female, but he is well-liked with a genial and motherly manner.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:15 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

So are we all just hanging around in here waiting for ~~Godot~~ a mod to come and clear it all up for us?
posted by jokeefe at 5:18 PM on March 10, 2008

a band composed entirely of divorced dads : Inner-Child Support

Actually, the (metal) band composed entirely of divorced dads is called Visitation Rites. Sorry.
posted by wemayfreeze at 5:19 PM on March 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

ThePinkSuperhero: Meanwhile, what happened here?
Yeah, how come it has a favorite. I thought they disappeared from deleted threads?
posted by tellurian at 5:25 PM on March 10, 2008

So are we all just hanging around in here waiting for ~~Godot~~ a mod to come and clear it all up for us?

Here you go.
posted by scody at 5:27 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

I agree with TPS, and I would be *profoundly* weirded out at this point if I were sansgras. She's asked us a couple of questions. Yes, a few things don't quite add up but she hasn't asked us for money or favors or anything out of line. If you don't feel like answering her questions because they're relationshipfilter or dramawhoring, don't.

And, frankly, I think some of her earlier questions (EVEN IF she is not who she claims to be) are still valuable additions to the community for some potential future person in a bad/abusive situation who needs help.

I've been in some really weird, fucked-up situations where I have fully expected my *friends*, much less people on the internet, to call bullshit and accuse me of being a pathological liar when I was just naive and in way over my head. Life is weird. Life is fucked-up. Sometimes it's fucked-up like the plot of some crazy soap opera, and sometimes we contribute to that (god knows I have at times). It doesn't mean that someone in this weird, fucked-up situation doesn't need help and advice.

But being asked to show up to prove your veracity? What, does she need to bring report cards too? Transcripts? W2s?

I don't know if she's real. I don't know if she's fake. If she's fake, we've protected nobody from her--roll eyes, move on. If she's real, we have absolutely done her a disservice. If I were in her shoes, I'd now be very very wary of reaching out for help - and I think that's the last thing she needs.
posted by fuzzbean at 5:29 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

ThePinkSuperhero I certainly don't have any desire to play therapist and/or detective for the amusement of the Metafilter community; what sane person would?

*shrug* I would. That may or may not be an answer to your question, though. :)

Again, it's cost/risk/benefit. Checking out the story costs an hour, tops, and provides an answer which, if not absolutely definitive, at least adds a significant amount of validity to one or the other possible outcomes. If two go along, it's an hour spent in moderately entertaining company. It's reasonable to be a little concerned about your personal safety, so meet somewhere public. Ask her to provide the contact phone number, and ring her from a public phone or one with a barred number. Worst case, a troll now knows what you look like.

I think "genial and motherly" 'cos that sort of person, if sansgras is genuine, is the sort of person sansgras is best off talking to. If she's not genuine, she's best off talking to a psychiatrist, but is extremely unlikely to show up.

Never mind- I fully endorse nobody for the job. He is not female, but he is well-liked with a genial and motherly manner.

Sounds good. The main attributes here are willingness, curiosity, being easy to talk to, and not convinced either way.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 5:38 PM on March 10, 2008

"I certainly don't have any desire to play therapist and/or detective for the amusement of the Metafilter community;"

I'd be the pornographer for the group, except that none of you have sent me naked pictures or given much notice of interest in seeing my wang.

Which is, I'm grieved to admit, not all that impressive.
posted by klangklangston at 5:39 PM on March 10, 2008

"I've been in some really weird, fucked-up situations where I have fully expected my *friends*, much less people on the internet, to call bullshit and accuse me of being a pathological liar when I was just naive and in way over my head."

BACK TO BACK MOVIES NO ONE COULD DO THAT! These double features are a sham!
posted by klangklangston at 5:40 PM on March 10, 2008

OKAY, klang, we'll have another one! *sheesh*

I have 300! And Gladiator! C'mon over!
posted by fuzzbean at 5:43 PM on March 10, 2008

Finally. You comin' Friday? Also, likely foursquare on Sat pm
posted by klangklangston at 5:49 PM on March 10, 2008

I mostly agree with fuzzbean, actually.

fuzzbean I agree with TPS, and I would be *profoundly* weirded out at this point if I were sansgras.
She started off that way. Her situation, if genuine, is distinctly weird and messed up.

But being asked to show up to prove your veracity? What, does she need to bring report cards too? Transcripts? W2s?
It's unresolved whether she needs to prove her veracity at all; plenty of us are happy to continue advising her, taking her questions at face value. Is it important to her? Whether she's real or not is clearly important to some people is it so important to them that they will drop crap advice or snarky remarks in her question thread?

I'd say it's up to her to decide whether to prove her reality or not, understanding that if she doesn't, there will be nastiness in the threads, perhaps even to the point that it compromises her ability to get good advice.

If she does decide to prove her reality, anything short of showing up somewhere and speaking to a person whose own veracity is unquestioned, wouldn't do. Were I a sock-puppeteer, I could photocopy or photoshop up ID papers, I could find an appropriate photo, I could--were I female of the appropriate age--even keep up my pretence on the phone. Being seen, in person, and spoken to, is (to my mind) vastly greater proof.

So if she does show up to speak to someone, it might as well actually be someone it would be useful, beneficial, at the very least pleasant, to speak to.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 5:50 PM on March 10, 2008

MY MODS, MY MODS, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN THIS THREAD?

There isn't anything to say. Preliminary investigations revealed nothing fishy and beyond that it's all speculation which I can't say much about. I don't have much of a fertile imagination vis a vis scammers and ways to prevaricate just closely enough to be believed. My life is actually complex and interesting enough so I don't have a ton of free cycles to ruminate on the mystery lives of others and I personally have NO IDEA what to make of this. That said, I'm sure we'll take a much closer look at future posts by prefpara ans sansgras just to make sure we're not missing anything.

Then again, I gave un owen $20 so maybe I'm just a sap, but I'm happier being a sap than someone who doesn't trust anyone.
posted by jessamyn at 5:57 PM on March 10, 2008 [12 favorites]

Friday probably yes, unless I'm in Big Sur visiting a friend at Esalen. Transmit more info about Saturday, plz.
posted by fuzzbean at 5:59 PM on March 10, 2008

Our house. Informal. No big deal. I'll put you on the foursquare email list.
posted by klangklangston at 6:03 PM on March 10, 2008

Metafilter: You're beyond helping.
posted by Dr. Curare at 6:16 PM on March 10, 2008

But being asked to show up to prove your veracity? What, does she need to bring report cards too? Transcripts? W2s?

This "she should prove she exists IRL" stuff is creeping me out, too. We answer an awful lot of crazy questions from an awful lot of (sometimes crazy) people without demanding that these individuals personally interview with An Established MeFite.
posted by desuetude at 6:23 PM on March 10, 2008

On the subject of sap:

I'm as cynical as the next guy, but can I just step up and say that anorexia is a terrible affliction, and should be treated as such?

Thanks.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:24 PM on March 10, 2008

aeschenkarnos: "It's unresolved whether she needs to prove her veracity at all; plenty of us are happy to continue advising her, taking her questions at face value."

That's 90% of the problem right there. As I mentioned earlier, it's a problem of both supply and demand.
posted by meehawl at 6:29 PM on March 10, 2008

Can I ask: what's the deal with un owen?
posted by supercrayon at 6:38 PM on March 10, 2008

I'd say it's up to her to decide whether to prove her reality or not, understanding that if she doesn't, there will be nastiness in the threads, perhaps even to the point that it compromises her ability to get good advice.

Wrong again. Anyone who posts a question that follows the guidelines of this site deserves helpful answers, whether people believe that person is "real" or not. Nastiness is neither allowed nor encouraged.

And p.s., I've met enough of you all in real life to know that you're ALL CRAZY.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:39 PM on March 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

In my fertile imagination, the true poster behind sansgras is this poster's kid. Yes, go ahead and name me the O. Henry of the internet. You know you want to.

To toss in my two bits - sansgras' posts have been red flagged for me since I first read the cell phone post, at which point I went back and read some of her other posts, at which point I made a mental note to watch for more posts from her. I promptly forgot my mental note (do we have a greasemonkey script to do this?) so I'm glad it came back up. I think at the very least there is some serious bullshit being dished out here. Her tone reminds me of young teenagers' fiction - even when supremely well-written, there's something that doesn't feel true (apart from the occasional exceptional young writer).

When people try to game internet forums or communities, it's like the pieces look like they're the right shape but when you put them together, the picture doesn't make much sense. Back in the day I knew a few precocious teenagers who liked to game forums to see what kind of pull they had over people, what people would believe. These questions have that sort of feel to them - of testing the waters of what people will buy into. I'd give sansgras the same advice I gave about the kid in the question I linked above - take a fiction workshop, learn to express your personal truth rather than poorly-executed fiction, and if by some rare, odd, crazy chance you are what you claim? Keep such crazy, longwinded, hard-to-swallow drama on LJ.
posted by SassHat at 6:41 PM on March 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

how much time & energy did people spend here discussing whether or not to deprive a suspicious noob of five whole bucks?
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:48 PM on March 10, 2008

I am a doctor of metaphysics. I bought my doctorate from the Church of Universal Life for $40. Took about two weeks.
posted by Astro Zombie at 6:59 PM on March 10, 2008

I promptly forgot my mental note (do we have a greasemonkey script to do this?)

Yes, we do.
posted by Partial Law at 7:00 PM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

I am Miko's sockpuppet and I'M PROUD OF IT.

I have a short list of users here I'd let control me with a hand up my ass, too. You mostly know who you are. Except for Astro Zombie. I haven't MeMailed him about that yet, mostly because of the restraining orders.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:14 PM on March 10, 2008

ThePinkSuperhero Wrong again.

So ... is it wrong to be nasty to me, and then prissily decry nastiness in general? :)

Anyway we're talking policy, not fact, it's "disagree" or "agree", not "wrong" or "right". But even if we were discussing the fact of whether people will be nasty to a person of dubious reality, I'm not wrong, they will. Before one of the mods came along and vacuumed it up there were callouts in the thread, and from the callouts, some nastiness, and now there is some here. If she posts another question, I will bet that it would get a few answers in before some clown pops up with a "HAHA! YOU FAKER! BAN THE WITCH! TO METATALK WITH THIS! I LINK MY THREAD AT THEE!". Will you take that bet?

Anyone who posts a question that follows the guidelines of this site deserves helpful answers, whether people believe that person is "real" or not.
Totally.

Nastiness is neither allowed nor encouraged.
Bah, those kind of policies are always stated in those kind of terms. They're up there with corporate vision statements about striving for excellence and innovating in qualitatively valid paradigms. Everything said should be considered on its own merits. Do you want your comment deleted for dropping a mildly nasty "Wrong again." clanger on my head? Do you want this comment of mine deleted for calling you prissy, a mildly nasty term, in return? Nonsense, we are not delicate little flowers.

Some nastiness--and as the giver or the target, we tend to lose sight of the fact that it can be extremely amusing to other people to see it, if it's well-written and apropros--can provoke intelligent discussion, because it makes people care. It makes them write back in detail. The grit of the pearl. I've been in some very interesting discussions that would not have happened had there been no nastiness tolerated at all.

Now, as for sansgras's situation and my mere suggestion of meeting someone trusted as a means of (a) meeting someone relatively decent--something her life frankly lacks--to get some IRL advice; and (b) establishing reflected trust, I will explain again that I don't think it's necessary or that she should as any kind of condition for continuing to post here.

I present it as a potential method for being believed real, if that is important. To some folks, it is. To some, it isn't.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 7:15 PM on March 10, 2008

I am thinking one P.I. just won't cut it. This demands a buddy cop team.
posted by boubelium at 7:22 AM

That's crazy talk—they'd be as different as night and day, and believe you me, the only thing worse them making them mad would be making them partners!
posted by blueberry at 7:27 PM on March 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

Saying you were wrong isn't nasty. If I called you an ugly pickle-face banana nose, that would be nasty. Saying you're wrong is just my opinion. That fact that it hurts your feelings that people aren't wowed by your idea doesn't make the disagreement mean.

I think it's a dangerous idea to encourage real-life meetings as some sort of trust exercise- it would make the community vulnerable to same sort of exploitation that detective threads hope to expose and/or prevent. It may be important to some members of this community to feel sure that all the screennames they're interacting with are each a separate, "real" person, but I doubt it is important to the overall health of the community, as long as all community members behave within the guidelines set forth by the community. If it were important, meetups would have been made mandatory long ago, no?

On the other hand, if we're going to go forth with your idea, we could be "mathowie's angels". Which could be fun, depending on the outfits.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:29 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

(tiny further example of J-P interaction: a good friend who's largely P-ish was dating a hardcore J girl for a year or two - very organised, driven & scheduled, both in personal & professional life. you could visibly see her stress levels go through the roof when anything would happen to change her day: "But I have to go home within the next fifteen minutes so I can do my 10km training run, because the half-marathon is only SIX MONTHS AWAY!!" - it's a really fundamental personality difference that's well worth paying attention to, because you generally can't force somebody to go against their natural preferences)
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:37 PM on March 10, 2008

there are way too many people in the beginning part of the thread jumping to conclusions, claiming it's obviously fake based on flimsy things like who registered the domains or whether she used a PO box or had a street address, or just what "seemed wrong" about this or that.

Seems to me that's what's happening here

yep.
knowledge = justified true belief, not spurious reasoning + lucky guess (guess early and often!)

Then again, the most annoying thing is when someone suspects something about you for the dumbest, completely wrong reason, but their conclusion is in fact correct. And is the point of MetaTalk not to annoy?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:48 PM on March 10, 2008

supercrayon: Can I ask: what's the deal with un owen?

See this MeTa thread, then this one, for the whole glorious two-day two-part trainwreck.
posted by hangashore at 7:48 PM on March 10, 2008 [8 favorites]

On the other hand, if we're going to go forth with your idea, we could be "mathowie's angels". Which could be fun, depending on the outfits.

I see lots of leather.
And the GADGETS! Must have high-tech shiny, sexy gadgets.
posted by goshling at 7:48 PM on March 10, 2008

Well, I can't help but note that, from now on, when the name skalitenko comes to mind, the word ballsy will, too. And considering what's for sale, I'm thinking it's Mission Accomplished for the good doctor. Now, that's marketing.
posted by y2karl at 7:58 PM on March 10, 2008

little help, mods? that small text above was meant to be in an askme about how to plan & commit to stuff. (thought you'd deleted it for being too chatty)
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:01 PM on March 10, 2008

I'm a bit confused by some of the comments here that suggest we should be ashamed of ourselves and that we should rather provide the OP with helpful answers regardless of any doubts over the veracity of her situation. A lot of people have been doing exactly that in the thread triggering this one (73 comments) and in her previous questions (87 and 51 comments respectively). No snarks there (as far as I could tell only one in the current thread, which was swiftly deleted). There's plenty of snark here but that's par for the course.

Some of the advice given in all the other threads sansgras claims to have taken to heart, some she has ignored. In the current thread some people reiterate some of those suggestions she has not followed (yet) and offer new ones.

The tenor of all those threads is kind, supportive and concerned. The advice given is sound, practical and generous even. I don't see any reason for any answerers involved in these threads to be ashamed of themselves, on the contrary. Particularly because some people may have harboured the doubts we are discussing here now.
posted by =^^= at 8:03 PM on March 10, 2008

I suppose you could say I'm the one who opened this can of worms by collating some of the seeming inconsistencies in the posting history of sansgras in her AskMe thread. I didn't see anything major, just looking for clarification of a few points. I think she answered those, both in her thread, as well as this one. More about that in a moment.

I was a veteran of the Kaycee Nicole fraud, in fact I was right in the middle of it. I was one of the dupes who was regularly communicating with Debbie, at the time known as Kaycee Nicole, about her battle with leukemia. I was completely and utterly sucked in by the charade. I was, and always have been a very gullible person. When the fraud was uncovered by the MeFi police, I was stunned.

You might say I learned a lesson that week about the value of Internet cynicism. My BS meter ran full boar for several years afterward. I have mellowed again somewhat recently, but I still keep a wary eye out for things that just don't add up or seem inconsistent. Such was the case, seemingly for me, with the various threads opened by sansgras on AskMe.

I have been a long time lurker on MetaFilter. I know most of the mythology of the site. I rarely post, most of my posts and comments were made back in the early days in 2000 and 2001, but I still spend time hanging out on the blue and the grey. I just recently have become more interested in the green, primarily because of a few alcoholism threads that I have some experience with.

Last night I saw a thread appear in the relationshipfilter section of AskMe and the comment count kept going up and up so I got curious. Like many others have noticed, it read like a train wreck, and on going back through sangras' posting history, so did some of her other AskMe's. I certainly felt sympathy for the girl's seeming plight, but there just were a few things that didn't add up. I even wondered if these long rambling AskMe posts were part of her graduate research project. You know the feeling. So I posted about it before I went to bed last night.

Now back to sansgras. As I said above, I think she satisfactorily responded to all the inconsistencies I noticed and even offered to speak privately to anyone who asked about her graduate school research. So I took her up on that offer this evening. She graciously responded. I promised to keep that correspondence confidential and will honor that. I will say, though, that it isn't about social online communities and for now sansgras is passing my cynicism meter. I thank sansgras for responding to me, and I sincerely hope she will continue to use the resources of AskMe to help her find the answers she needs to live a successful and happy life.
posted by netbros at 8:03 PM on March 10, 2008 [5 favorites]

This place is one big pile of crazy ass electronic beans on a big shiny internet plate. And served with a heaping steaming side of Too Much Free Time.
posted by tkchrist at 8:06 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Fake. Burn it with fire, or at least stop giving it attention.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 8:13 PM on March 10, 2008

If MeFi is a city, what building have I just wandered into?
posted by not_on_display at 8:13 PM on March 10, 2008

If MeFi is a city, what building have I just wandered into?

Why, the lunatic asylum of course. The trick is being able to pick the patients from the staff.
posted by goshling at 8:19 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Also, the claims of early graduate dregrees and suchlike reminds me of un owen. Whatever happened to her?
posted by CunningLinguist at 10:30 AM on March 10 [+] [!]

UN Owen is around and posting via her "husband's" account, InnocentBystander. I found this out because they posted virtually identical stories (1, 2) about getting bullied at a young age.
posted by footnote at 8:19 PM on March 10, 2008 [23 favorites]

By the way, I liked UN Owen. What did she do wrong besides asking for money?
posted by footnote at 8:20 PM on March 10, 2008

I haven't been ignoring this thread, contrary to beliefs. I've been working. Here's my next round of defense....

Loiseau -- Beth claimed to have FINISHED medical school (she lived in Canada, btw) at 24. She was actually much older (late 20s early 30s) and married, and also claimed to be simultaneously practicing and helping the medically ill in Africa.

Also-- she was banned from that site, but I never said MY username on that site was Sansgras. I am Sangras here, much like there are many other people on OTHER eating disorder forums (there are many) who also have the same not-so-unique username.

Klangklangston-- the thing is, our stories are completely different. Her entire web of lies can be found on display on various sites. She was a 30 year old women, married, claimed to be in Africa, claimed to be healthy and sane and was known for offering others her medical 'expertise.' She knew a lot of the members in real life, which is why her saga was so controversial. She was doling out advice, medical and otherwise, to many young, deeply sick, and impressionable girls. She was close to many people and so many people had an emotional investment in her.

No one ever questioned her, even when she claimed to be in Africa but her IP address was showing Canada, and when people started to (I don't know what prompted it; I wasn't around then), she left. Never answered any questions, just dropped off the face of the internet.

Now assuming I am her, and knowing that she was aware of all the sites about her, why would I one day register here and post a lengthy question regarding an issue that I was obviously emotionally invested in (that sort of thing tends to be obvious in the writing style), then come back an update the situation with a spin-off question a month later, then post a final question still related to the initial issue, when this is supposedly all a lie and I don't know any of you. Look at my post history. I have no activity aside from my questions. No one knows me. I haven't formed any bonds. The kind of emotional manipulation Beth pulled only works when people are emotionally invested in their relationship with you.

I mean, if this is all just a big story on my part, why not post something at least somewhat related to her story? She was much older than me, self-sufficient, married, a professional. Now she's become exceptionally creative writer and is pretending to be a girl who lives in a completely different country with a completely different story? My posts were pretty emotional for pure lies made up on a whim to play tricks on people I don't know and haven't tried to form bonds with.

Iconomy-- I used "claiming" facetiously because I'm obviously not being taken seriously. You're reading too much into my posts.

Monday -- I'm telling the truth. I've only responded to the people who have said something so outlandish or verifiable (e.g., 'I wasn't aware one year master's programs exist') that I feel like I have to say something. I've read every post here. I'm pretty sure I haven't avoided ANY questions. If someone is simply calling me a liar, there's no need to respond to that.

Desuetude-- Thank you! I can understand why people think my homelife sitution is unbelievable because it is. But the education stuff has been frustrating because I suppose it can seem like something remarkable to those outside of the field, but those in the field know damn well that an SMP is nothing special. Basically a continuation of undergrad, a booster for those needing a GPA increase. Not exactly you're typical graduate program in terms of intensity.

Miko-- Uhh... I contradicted myself HOW? I have never used this username anywhere but HERE. I initially said I hadn't dated because I don't consider going to a cafe when you're just there chat for a bit and hookup afterward dating. Maybe they were dates. Does it matter? The point is, I've never had a serious exclusive or open relationship with anyone. I've had casual sex and the requisite dinner/drinks/coffee/whatever, but have never gone out with the intention of getting to know someone and possibly forming a serious relationship with someone.

Scody -- I was mostly joking about the Bobby/Whitney comment. I tend to involuntarily go for similarly damaged people, so the comment seemed appropriate.

My educational background: as I mentioned in my second question response, I graduated high school early at age 15 after spending two years in HS. Not because I was a prodigy, but because I was just given credits for classes I never took from my shady private school. From there I attended the local, nothing-special, state university where I finished my degree in four years at age 19. Starting that summer I enrolled in the one year SMP at the same university, and finished at age 20. Ta da.

Prefpara -- "Wouldn't it be terrible if the final lesson she took away from this was that she needs to make sure never to open up to people about her problems because they'll disbelieve her, jump all over her for lacking a buddha-like calm in the face of parental rejection, and mock her sincere pain and her fumbling attempts to deal with it?"

Not trying to pull the pity card, but that is it. I was rejected by that loser guy after finally opening up to him. I'm called a liar here. The resonating theme of my life has been my father invalidating my problems. I don't open up and I'm called arrogant. I open up and I'm dramatic and crazy and dishonest and dispicable. I got the objective advice I was looking for before this mess started, but will a continue to be hesitant to open up to people? You betcha.

Aeschenkarnos-- I'd love nothing more than to prove to everyone that I am real and not some 30 year old woman. I just don't know how to prove my story. Unfortunately my life history isn't googleable save for my questions here. At the end of the day, it isn't important. I got my advice. I'm working toward the goals I've established for myself. I'm not going to change any minds.

**I also wanted to say that I made an appointment with a therapist this morning, and he actually talked me into speaking to him today. We had a two hour session and he reiterated much of the advice I was given for all 3 of my questions. Someone used the analogy that the guy I was dating has broken edges and so do I, but they just don't fit. Interestingly, he used the same analogy. We have another appointment tomorrow, which I'm looking forward to. He's very direct much like the posters who have offered me advice here, and I know that's exactly what I need.
posted by sansgras at 8:21 PM on March 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

Saying you were wrong isn't nasty.
Nonsense, wrong once again, as you oh so often are. Do you practice wrongness before a mirror daily? Read Great Books of Wrong to improve your wrongitude? Enter your many errors into the Wrongness Machine to produce new variations of wrong? Live on wrong bean sandwiches? Surely no-one could be so wrong on purpose, you must have made it up!

Alternatively:

Look, I do see your point, and I don't dispute for a second your right to say that. But to tell a person they are wrong can be done nastily or kindly or neither, it really depends how it's done, and it's up to that person in the end how they take it. I am not incorrect to be mildly irritated, and it is my decision as to whether I let it go, give it back, or try to find a way to make it work for me.

That fact that it hurts your feelings that people aren't wowed by your idea doesn't make the disagreement mean.
I'd like to see a definition of nastiness, of the sort "neither allowed nor encouraged", that does not rest on its effect on people's feelings.

Anyway, that is not the point. This is the point: as a person of unverified reality, if she posts questions, those threads will get unhelpful answers, for that reason. If she doesn't verify her reality, some people will continue to doubt her, and act accordingly; meeting someone is a good way to verify that they are real.

You seem to be saying both of these assertions are wrong. You may be right; but if you are, why are you right? Will the next question from sansgras be met with nothing but helpfulness? Would meeting known New Yorker members be such an dreadful thing to contemplate, an experience unique in its meaninglessness?

From the whispers I overhear in here, some of you are organizing a NY meetup. Why not (a) invite sansgras to meet one or more of you, to reassure her that you're maybe vaguely likeable, and that if she went to the meetup, she wouldn't be roasted alive and made into pate de faux sansgras; (b) subject to that, invite her to the meetup? Any and all controversy about the woman rests on the perception that she is not real. If she demonstrates she is real, ipso facto, the controversy ought, in the minds of reasonable folk, disappear.

Whereas, if she doesn't, she either disappears from our lives or continues to post, in which case the controversy will continue until at some point it becomes clear, even to those disinclined to actively enquire, that she is or is not a faker; or, the mods ruthlessly stamp out any such questioning of her reality to the point where the questioners give up.

But it's up to her.

And that's the last on the topic from me. If that meets with a round of "NO! WRONG! WE COULD NEVER, NEVER DO THAT! WHY? THERE IS NO WHY! JUST NO!" ... then, so be it, I will flee from the rays of pink energy and return to my secret lair.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 8:24 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Aha, well, there we go. Welcome again, bona fide sansgras. :)
posted by aeschenkarnos at 8:28 PM on March 10, 2008

From the whispers I overhear in here, some of you are organizing a NY meetup.

Everyone is invited to meetups. sansgras is welcome, just as everyone else on the site is welcome, and I hope everyone who desires to come to one does so, as they are a lot of fun. Please do not misrepresent what meetups are for: they are not a place for people to come so other members can judge them and report back to the site on what they're like, and I wouldn't want people to think so. Real, fake, sock, or shoe, come to a meetup, and your secret is safe with us ;-)
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:33 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

UN Owen is around and posting via her "husband's" account, InnocentBystander. I found this out because they posted virtually identical stories (1, 2) about getting bullied at a young age.

Huh, that is odd.
posted by puke & cry at 8:36 PM on March 10, 2008

Maybe it's time to close this thread and move on?
posted by nobody at 8:37 PM on March 10, 2008

I don't live in NYC. :) I'm not opposed to meeting anyone in my area, but I won't post that area out in the open.
posted by sansgras at 8:38 PM on March 10, 2008

I think UN Owen should be allowed back. She may be a scammer, but she also coined one of the most memorable phrases of AskMe, one which lives on in the lexicon.

Also, I believe sansgras.
posted by footnote at 8:45 PM on March 10, 2008

sans: best of luck. Sounds like you got a lot of work ahead of you. And stay away from the benzos if you can. (FWIW, I know others who have entered college early and completed combined BS/MS programs. Ignore the feisty MeTanaians--their flung poo isn't real.)
posted by not_on_display at 8:45 PM on March 10, 2008

sweet jebus!

when are you all going to finally realise that sansgras is obviously Ethereal Bligh?

who the hell else in history could be bothered typing up such excruciatingly verbose comments?
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:00 PM on March 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Someone used the analogy that the guy I was dating has broken edges and so do I, but they just don't fit. Interestingly, he used the same analogy.

OMG sansgras!
aeschenkarnos is your therapist! It's the only possible explanation!

On a more serious note, who are you trying to hide your internet posts from? I assume from your father. If so, I'd be very surprised if he (or your boss or anyone else who knows you personally) couldn't recognize you from your unusual and highly specific educational history. That's one of the things that really struck me as odd, because you keep asserting your masters degree (but not publicly disclosing other identifying traits) as if it gives you some authority or respect. Maybe something to talk to your therapist about. Of course, if you're trying to keep future jobs/universities from easily google searching you, that's another story.
posted by fermezporte at 9:04 PM on March 10, 2008

netbros, that was a classy comment.

I also wanted to say that I made an appointment with a therapist this morning, and he actually talked me into speaking to him today.

Good. Much more appropriate than using AskMe as your long-term plan. Really. Good luck, stick with it.
posted by mediareport at 9:11 PM on March 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Please do not misrepresent what meetups are for

All I'm anticipating is, if she wants, someone reliable could become able to honestly say, on her behalf, "yes, she's real, I'll vouch for that." If you met her, and the next thread she posts gets people saying she's a fake, will you stand stoically by, or would you vouch for her? If you would vouch for her (or for someone else thought to be a faker, but whom you'd met), then I can't really see your problem with what I'm suggesting, or why you think it's a misrepresentation of the purpose of a meetup. Obviously it's not the only or even a major purpose of a meetup. But I'm sure the idea of verification that dubiously real members actually exist crosses the minds of many attendees.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 9:15 PM on March 10, 2008

Sangras:

Man, that was a lot of text for something I already kinda dismissed. Maybe you'd be well-served by a perusal of the problem of solipsism. Anyway, tempted as I may be by my own personal dysfunctions, I won't goad you anymore about this. That you aren't going to be able to prove your identity to me is one of those things that is argumentatively interesting to me, but your actual identity is only academic. So how about we do this some other time, when you're not going to be emotionally responding to mildly-skeptical snark? If not for you, at least for me, so I don't feel like I'm poking at a rabbit in a trap; and those few dregs of the community still reading this, for whom my arguments are often so much less interesting than they are to me.
posted by klangklangston at 9:18 PM on March 10, 2008

I've messaged Cortex and gave him my username and password to the message board I mentioned, the same one Beth was banned from.

Assuming Cortex wants to check it out, he can read my posts, many of which repeat what I've said here, and search to see that Beth/that site's Sansgras is indeed a seperate person from myself.

This is the only way I can think to prove I am not her. Beyond that, I'm closed with this argument. There is nothing else I can do to convince others that I have been only truthful, and if my efforts are not sufficient, then nothing is.

Good night.
posted by sansgras at 9:26 PM on March 10, 2008

Please do not misrepresent what meetups are for

Seconded. Everybody knows that meetups are where you send your real-life sockpuppets.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:36 PM on March 10, 2008

What a clusterfuck.
posted by empath at 9:38 PM on March 10, 2008

ps footnote, that's good sleuthing. It's interesting how un owen/IB's wife changes the ages and time line to better match her "character"
posted by fermezporte at 9:40 PM on March 10, 2008

*looking around for real life sockpuppet*
Uh-oh, then who is typing this? And who the hell went to a meetup claiming they were me?
posted by not_on_display at 9:41 PM on March 10, 2008

OMG sansgras!
aeschenkarnos is your therapist! It's the only possible explanation!

Considering that we have all kinds of doctors & lawyers & therapists & veterinarians here, I'm now wondering if anybody's followed the advice to take it to a professional, and ended up consulting one of our resident experts in real life without realising it?
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:43 PM on March 10, 2008

And who the hell went to a meetup claiming they were me?

Did you actually go to one as yourself?!??

I thought it was de rigeur here to send one of your friends along, after briefing them on some of the recent highlights & controversies.

Or am I really the only one who does this?
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:46 PM on March 10, 2008

I can't believe anyone really cares about this.
posted by desjardins at 9:52 PM on March 10, 2008

tellurian: Yeah, how come it has a favorite. I thought they disappeared from deleted threads?

As I understand it, favorites on a deleted post don't disappear. They are merely never duplicated—as in, on any sort of user activity page—and don't show up anywhere on the site other than the original post and the favorites count on the user profiles (favoritor and favoritee). I believe this holds only for posts, as deleted comments are 'scorched earth'.

sansgras: I also wanted to say that I made an appointment with a therapist this morning

If only we could hear from each of them too, those who D'dTMFA! This is good news, sansgras, and I wish you the best.
posted by carsonb at 9:53 PM on March 10, 2008

Considering that we have all kinds of doctors & lawyers & therapists & veterinarians here, I'm now wondering if anybody's followed the advice to take it to a professional, and ended up consulting one of our resident experts in real life without realising it?

Nope, not me. New York's a bit far to commute. :) Anyway, looking for the broken pieces that fit is an old, old metaphor, I claim no originality for it. (And I'm not a therapist.)
posted by aeschenkarnos at 10:04 PM on March 10, 2008

I find the thought of attending a meet-up to verify one's existence to be too creepy and intimidating for words. Even if someone did turn up for such a purpose, would you simply take their word that whatever they say is true or would you require further verification? Birth certificate, driver's license, school reports, references, medical certificate?

I'll take ThePinkSuperhero's word for it when she says everyone is crazy.
posted by goshling at 10:05 PM on March 10, 2008

yes, and we use metafilter as our own form of talking therapy.

that makes perfect sense to me.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:26 PM on March 10, 2008

UN Owen is around and posting via her "husband's" account, InnocentBystander.

My goodness.
posted by scody at 10:29 PM on March 10, 2008 [7 favorites]

oh! the ones who leave are the one's who've finally talked themselves back into sanity!

occhiblu! jonmc! ethereal bligh! xteraco!

what's life like outside the asylum?
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:31 PM on March 10, 2008

Yeah, whatever. I still think Gratuitous1 and Second Account for Making Jokey Comments were the same person.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 10:33 PM on March 10, 2008

sansgras: Loiseau -- Beth claimed to have FINISHED medical school (she lived in Canada, btw) at 24. She was actually much older (late 20s early 30s) and married, and also claimed to be simultaneously practicing and helping the medically ill in Africa.

Just to clarify, not to argue: in the LiveJournal I was referring to (linked from the Encyclopedia Dramatica) she in fact claims to be an MD, 24 and teaching at a university.

UbuRoivas: when are you all going to finally realise that sansgras is obviously Ethereal Bligh?

who the hell else in history could be bothered typing up such excruciatingly verbose comments?

XMLicious.
posted by loiseau at 10:45 PM on March 10, 2008

UbuRoivas, a couple of those folks are back.

So it goes with MetaFilter; you try to leave and it pulls you back in.
posted by lilywing13 at 10:50 PM on March 10, 2008

There's a lot of other similarities between InnocentBystander's answers and un owen's, if you get bored enough to look through them. Too many to write off as coincidence you could say. Anyway, I should stop wasting time on that and go to bed.
posted by puke & cry at 10:51 PM on March 10, 2008

She may be a scammer, but she also coined one of the most memorable phrases of AskMe, one which lives on in the lexicon.

Just an aside, and for what little it's worth, but like a lot of stuff we think we made up here, that was an SA Forums catchphrase (and used elsewhere, but I think it came from SA before SA started its sad spiral into internet irrelevance) years before it appeared here.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:59 PM on March 10, 2008

I've messaged Cortex and gave him my username and password to the message board I mentioned, the same one Beth was banned from.

Yeah, I'm really uncomfortable with this and I'd ask that you change your password immediately. I appreciate the act of openness on your part, but the last thing I want is access to you someone else's account on an unrelated site.
posted by cortex at 11:00 PM on March 10, 2008

UbuRoivas, a couple of those folks are back.

obviously forgot to keep taking their meds.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:06 PM on March 10, 2008

Plus, Sansgras giving cortex access to one account hardly proves that she isn't responsible for other accounts.
posted by chudmonkey at 11:09 PM on March 10, 2008

I'm happier being a sap than someone who doesn't trust anyone

Jessamyn ftw.
posted by flabdablet's sock puppet at 11:34 PM on March 10, 2008

goshling I find the thought of attending a meet-up to verify one's existence to be too creepy and intimidating for words. Even if someone did turn up for such a purpose, would you simply take their word that whatever they say is true or would you require further verification?

Good grief yes, just take their word. You're not proving anything in a court of law. The stakes are tiny, the consequences of not being believed are just ... not being believed. Incurring the wrath of judgmental personalities. Losing some AskMeFi answerers who otherwise would give useful advice.

And it's by no means the only reason I suggested it. Sansgras needs to make more friends.

Can we get an official moderator Declaration of Let's Move On or something? :)
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:49 PM on March 10, 2008

footnote UN Owen is around and posting via her "husband's" account, InnocentBystander. I found this out because they posted virtually identical stories (1, 2) about getting bullied at a young age.

Give that footnote a gold shield!
posted by MLIS at 11:57 PM on March 10, 2008

I guess the mods never banned her account?
posted by blasdelf at 12:16 AM on March 11, 2008

Except for people who can/do go to meetups or have real life friends or acquaintances online (who themselves stand up to scrutiny), the only way we can feel somewhat sure of anyone's "identity" (once it is put under the microscope) is consistency in small things throughout many contributions over time - and possibly across sites. However, this means that there are relatively few people whom we can feel terribly sure about - so we can veer towards mistrusting everyone, or choose to trust everyone until they are proven to be false... or better yet, we can be sensible about how we interact and how much we invest emotionally. If you are touched by a heart-wrenching story and feel moved to offer money or other material support - that would be the time to put on your doubting hat before deciding if it's a great idea; if you are drawn into a personal drama and find yourself spending a lot of time worrying about an online friend, emailing and IMing tons of encouragement and understanding for problems that just don't seem to ever get better - go put on that hat! If someone's contributions seem to reliably sow a lot of drama and division on a site, it might be time to put on the hat and decline to be pulled into the game.

In other words, it's all pretty much the same in here as it is out there; some people are telling the truth, some are lying to you for fun and profit. Some are not to be trusted alone with your kid, dog, or geranium, and some will go out of their way to help you, just because - and you can almost never tell the former from latter at first sight... but fakers will usually eventually trip up in pretty obvious ways. So all you can do is be alert. Because the world needs more lerts, and it's just fundamentally better than being ajar or aflame, though being abroad can be pretty awesome.
posted by taz at 12:24 AM on March 11, 2008 [5 favorites]

yes, exploring abroad can be heaps of fun.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:29 AM on March 11, 2008

Don't forget to bring your chap stick!
posted by taz at 12:41 AM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

true. helps prevent the lips from getting too dry.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:55 AM on March 11, 2008

All I wanna do when I wake up in the morning is read about a 24 year-old M.D.
Pro-ana, Pro-ana,
Never thought that a girl like you could get your Master's Degree
Pro-ana

got nuthin
posted by davejay at 12:58 AM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

O pro-ana
O pro-ana!
O PRO-ANA
Sweet Pro-ana!
O PRO-ANA
You know you are my friend, yeah
O PRO-ANA
And I ain't down here for your money
I ain't down here for your love
I ain't down here for your love or money
I'm down here for your -
(um, why am i down here again?)
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:16 AM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'd just like to say what with this and catching up on the u.n.owen drama this has been the finest day of entertainment I have go out of metafilter in years.

Yes, I feel dirty now.
posted by arha at 1:29 AM on March 11, 2008

Perhaps using the karpman drama triangle would help identify metaphonys a bit quicker, thus saving users ( and admin ) precious metatime that can be used to distract from doing actual worthwhile tasks like the one i'm currently avoiding.
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:23 AM on March 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

sorry, that should read metavoiding.
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:24 AM on March 11, 2008

and that should have read that i was metasorry.

once again,

my metapologies.
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:25 AM on March 11, 2008

u.n. owen is the "wife" of InnocentBystander?

Wow, I feel like Chazz Palminteri at the end of The Usual Suspects. But I am entertained rather than annoyed, honestly.
posted by grouse at 2:28 AM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Wow, I feel like Chazz Palminteri at the end of The Usual Suspects.

I feel like Paris Hilton at the end of Ulysses, but there you are.
posted by sgt.serenity at 2:42 AM on March 11, 2008 [8 favorites]

that does it. i've gotta go take a shower.

you need to imagine the sarge's comment in billy connolly's accent to appreciate just how wrong things are turning here.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:59 AM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Just read every frigging comment in this thread.
Still have no clue as to what is happening.
Cliff's notes, please?
posted by Dizzy at 3:52 AM on March 11, 2008

*boggles at u.n. owen revelation*

Next y'all are gonna tell me dhoyt is back as ThePinkSuperhero...
posted by romakimmy at 4:03 AM on March 11, 2008

Cliff's Notes for Dizzy:

sansgras had problems. Few believed her; some got angry, like being lied to was a new thing. Villagers with torches gathered at her cottage. She appeared at the 2nd story window, made an impassioned speech, mentioned that she's going to therapy, and the crowd thinned to where it was maybe a couple people with torches. Then the credits rolled, while some in the audience said, "Yeah, I liked it," and UbuR sang a song.
posted by not_on_display at 4:37 AM on March 11, 2008 [11 favorites]

Oh, and a sequel was hinted at.

Next: Jane Eyre, that strumpet. She should have known that Rochester was already married. DUMP HIM!!!
posted by not_on_display at 4:41 AM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

If MeFi is a city, what building have I just wandered into?

The Attention Whore House
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:59 AM on March 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

Just an aside, and for what little it's worth, but like a lot of stuff we think we made up here, that was an SA Forums catchphrase (and used elsewhere, but I think it came from SA before SA started its sad spiral into internet irrelevance) years before it appeared here.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 1:59 AM on March 11 [+] [!]

Really? Oh well. But did we every really get any proof that UN Owen wasn't for real? I don't think she fit the profile of a compulsive liar/scammer -- she was an active community member, and she didn't take the initiative to ask for money herself.
posted by footnote at 5:03 AM on March 11, 2008

stav: I think the chain was something like SexSexWorld -> Portal of Evil -> Something Awful -> Metafilter. All of which I think, bar SSW, were graced by UN Owen at some horrible point. In fact, I think it was on POE that her "jar of peanut butter" revelations were made.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 5:29 AM on March 11, 2008

that was an SA Forums catchphrase (and used elsewhere, but I think it came from SA before SA started its sad spiral into internet irrelevance) years before it appeared here.

I would be interested in seeing a source for that if you have one. mendel claims it is actually from Usenet but can't back that up.
posted by grouse at 5:30 AM on March 11, 2008

UN Owen was completely a fucking psycho flake, footnote. If you're really interested I can probably find the supporting dox, but yeah.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 5:31 AM on March 11, 2008

Pony request - to save having to accidentally see any of this crap, from now on, when an AskMe question exceeds 2000 words can some sort of icon appear on the front page next to the username, maybe a small razor blade or tiny animated pair of emo specs with a tear drop falling from them?
posted by fire&wings at 5:40 AM on March 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

UN Owen was completely a fucking psycho flake, footnote. If you're really interested I can probably find the supporting dox, but yeah.

I don't have much going on at work today, so if you could, it would make my day,
posted by pieoverdone at 5:41 AM on March 11, 2008

Yes, let's officially convene a coram nobis hearing for UN Owen.
posted by footnote at 6:00 AM on March 11, 2008

The beginning of the end for her on POE. Context: she'd just been boasting about how well she sucked cock or something, and then posted a coquettish picture of herself. Turns out that without Myspace angles she looked pretty different. A Specimens Removed post sums it up. From here, a Livejournal post from her ex-boyfriend was linked. In the following thread was an hilarious comment from a former housemate of hers about how she went through a stick of butter a day. Etc etc etc. The rabbit hole never ends.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 6:07 AM on March 11, 2008 [8 favorites]

I mean, if this is all just a big story on my part, why not post something at least somewhat related to her story? She was much older than me, self-sufficient, married, a professional. Now she's become exceptionally creative writer and is pretending to be a girl who lives in a completely different country with a completely different story?

If someone got caught in a lie which was well-documented on the internet, I would think that the LAST thing they would want to do would be to keep telling the same lie, or any part of that lie, because it would be that much easier to connect the story to one already proven to be false.

Just because your story doesn't resemble the story of Beth in any way doesn't mean that you have to be telling the truth here. You could just be telling a different lie. That being said, I don't know if you're lying or not, and I can give you the benefit of the doubt. I just wanted to point out that "I have to be telling the truth because my story doesn't match up with a known lie!" doesn't really make any sense.
posted by 23skidoo at 6:12 AM on March 11, 2008

sansgras, my comment was also facetious.
posted by iconomy at 6:16 AM on March 11, 2008

And here's the metatalk thread where she gets the business.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 6:17 AM on March 11, 2008

Thank you, n_o_display.
Anybody have a copy of it I can play on my Betamax?
posted by Dizzy at 6:24 AM on March 11, 2008

Next y'all are gonna tell me dhoyt is back as ThePinkSuperhero...

::jazz hands::
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:10 AM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

nicolas, thanks for the U.N. Owen thread. That should be on the MeTa sidebar; it would serve the same function as all those impaled people outside of Vlad's castle. Plus it's far funnier than even the most hilarious impaling.
posted by Mister_A at 7:14 AM on March 11, 2008

Really? Oh well. But did we every really get any proof that UN Owen wasn't for real? I don't think she fit the profile of a compulsive liar/scammer -- she was an active community member, and she didn't take the initiative to ask for money herself.

She precisely fit the profile of a compulsive liar/scammer, because she compulsively lied and was part of a scam to get money from other MeFites. That it was not her idea doesn't mean she didn't facilitate it, and I think if you read the threads, you'll see that she did.

But, more to the point, although this thread starts with reference to Kaycee, un owen has been brought up here for a good reason. She's the person I thought of when evaluating what we know about sansgras. In other words, the distrust displayed toward sansgras is a result of the scamming that un owen did here. Why would we want to invite that back into the community.

(Read scody's two links for more dirty-feeling bullshit from that woman. Who the fuck tries to physically intimidate someone who's just doing their job? If you want to claim special exemptions because of your past, you have to be willing to demonstrate evidence of that past.)
posted by OmieWise at 7:19 AM on March 11, 2008

Hah!
posted by Partial Law at 7:24 AM on March 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

It's ironic that I considered making a comment in the AskMe thread explaining that it was reasonable for the financial aid officer to request proof because of the willingness of so many undergraduates to lie to get an edge. I decided not to because it didn't answer the question. It seems it would have been unnecessary anyway as u.n. owen, of all people, would know how true that is.
posted by grouse at 7:45 AM on March 11, 2008

I am addicted to this stuff (Kaycee Nicole, UN OWen, GiveWell, etc) now, and it will probably get me fired from my job as Head Rocket Scientist (yes I work on Head Rockets, why do you ask?). And I will need to pass the hat, and in exchange for your largesse, I will offer long dissembling fictions about my abused and abusive childhood and my enthusiasms for violence and public sex, preferably concurrent, and my incredible IQ, my undergrad degrees at MIT (Rocketology) and Yale (Hot Sexy Sexism), my graduate work at the Sorbonne (Astrophysics) and Oxford (Astrology).

And the more discerning among you will discern that I am facing a couple of deadlines, and so am compelled to tighten every screw in the house, clean the top shelf of the bookcase, obsessively read certain web sites for "inspiration", and call long-lost college friends. Because that's how writing is done.
posted by Mister_A at 7:45 AM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

It's weird to say the least.
posted by drezdn at 7:47 AM on March 11, 2008

Mister_A,

I tried to communicate with you telepathically. Pretty flakeyville, hunh? I just felt this strong compulsion when I guess I could have been sleeping but I figured I could sleep later, and I did. I hope you wake up soon. We miss you, tht's all. Take your time as you need, I told you, but I really miss you and flakeyville or not, I hope you felt/heard me last night. I keep lighting candles for you, sweetheart. I think of you every day, I really do. I heart you, big time. I'm going to write you a letter and maybe your Rocketology supervisor could read it to you. Btw, that postage stamp on the letter you sent to me was so cute! I loved the teddy bear with the presents design of it. I didn't see any US stamps as cute or cool as that one. It's a keeper. :) xo ND¢

Current Mood: keeping the faith
posted by ND¢ at 7:51 AM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

And yet, OmieWise, when she posted those threads, there was a lot of support coming from MeFites and a lot of "Good for you!". Is the disgust at the physical intimidation directed at the act, or at her?

Yeah, I read the support and it dismayed me. My disgust is directed at the idea and at the support for the idea. That it's her adds to it, but doesn't create it.

If I had to speculate about where the support for the idea comes from, I would guess that people are reacting sympathetically to the difficulty an abuse survivor might have revisiting those aspects of her life. I can understand that, but I don't think it excuses deliberately acting badly. Nor, as I mentioned, do I think one gets to plead for special consideration because of a past that one is unwilling to have verified. It's kind of one or the other.
posted by OmieWise at 8:00 AM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

doubting hat

No! Don't tell me you're starting on me! I'm real, I tell you! Real!!

This thread has definitely been worth it for the u.n. owen/InnocentBystander revelation; as for sansgras, I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt. Good luck with the mishegoss, kiddo!
posted by languagehat at 8:02 AM on March 11, 2008

On non-preview:

I will need to pass the hat

Oh no you don't!

*runs faster*
posted by languagehat at 8:04 AM on March 11, 2008

I apologize to sansgras for any malicious accusory. That said, I must confess that I still cock a skeptical eye at parts of her story. Her original AskMe painted a picture of a naive young captive woman with an advanced degree who never went anywhere except to work and (previously) school because of her controlling father. We later find out that he tracks her movements via her cellphone. She had no friends and had never dated.

In the most recent post, we find out that she's had lots of casual sex, but doesn't count that as "dating." She has a "schtup me" dress (how does her dad let her out of the house in that? Does she change in the rest room at work?) that's a guaranteed guy-getter - how does she escape Dad's watchful eye long enough to trot out the dress and secure a quick hook-up? During her lunch hour at work? She doesn't make enough money at her job to get her own apartment, yet she's asking about luxury hotels in New York (maybe it's a company-paid weekend?)

:::shrug:::
posted by Oriole Adams at 10:08 AM on March 11, 2008

If I had to speculate about where the support for the idea comes from,

Maybe it was from the fact that, despite her presentation, the story she told contained no actual physical intimidation but rather just bringing a friend along for moral support?

You'll note many comments in that thread that comment on that fact.

And frankly, knowing more about the poster's on-line history a) makes me wonder if the incident took place at all, and b) makes me absolutely certain that if the incident did take place, the details were embellished to make a good story.

You shouldn't confuse people's approval of a narrative for their belief in it.
posted by tkolar at 10:09 AM on March 11, 2008

there are known unowens and there are unknown unowens
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:23 AM on March 11, 2008 [20 favorites]

It's true there was no mention of roughing the guy up or anything, but I thought the intimidation factor was pretty plainly laid out in the original metatalk post, hence my comment in that thread. But yeah, it's all pretty pointless considering the source. I doubt it ever happened at all.
posted by puke & cry at 10:28 AM on March 11, 2008

Maybe it was from the fact that, despite her presentation, the story she told contained no actual physical intimidation but rather just bringing a friend along for moral support?

You must be reading a different story. That physical intimidation was meant to be implied is everywhere evident in her account, from her description of her friend's dress to her description of the administrator's reaction. I understand that no one was explicitly threatened in the story, but I think it's despicable nonetheless.

You shouldn't confuse people's approval of a narrative for their belief in it.

I'm not sure what this means. Seriously. Many of the comments are of the "good job" variety. Few are of the "good story" variety. Even if we discount that the incident took place (which I agree, is unlikely given the author), the approval was directed at the idea that it's appropriate to intimidate someone if you don't like the questions they ask. Awful.
posted by OmieWise at 10:28 AM on March 11, 2008

All this sansgras stuff aside... I don't know if I am better or worse for now knowing un owen exists on the planet.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:28 AM on March 11, 2008

The bit that I liked about the college financial aid guy intimidation scheme post (or C-FAG-ISP) is that I know many men will disrespect, harrass, and humiliate women who are unaccompanied by men. If a man appears at her shoulder, suddenly the misogynist shit-bags are all sweetness and "yes, Ma'am". My reading of the C-FAG-ISP was that the FAG was that kind of man (a woman-hating coward), and that it was completely in bounds to bring someone along to help ensure the proper courtesy. I would (and have) done the same for my wife and my step-daughter, and while I wish I did not have to, pretending that this sort of thing doesn't happen doesn't help anyone. In related news, TEChNOVikIinG!!!111!
posted by Mister_A at 10:33 AM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh boy, Technoviking! That's where I'm asleep!
posted by grouse at 10:42 AM on March 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

Ja ja, check out Måt Høwië's current post on the blue, that's what turned me on to the TechnoViking.
posted by Mister_A at 10:51 AM on March 11, 2008

Yeah, I know those kinds of guys, too, Mister_A, but there really is no indication that that's what this guy was like in either the question or the comments un owen posted. There's a lot of assertion by answerers that he's that kind of guy, but un owen doesn't even take the opportunity to confirm it. And, regardless, she didn't get a male friend to come along for moral support, in the story she got one to come along to be physically intimidating.

I don't want to keep belaboring this, because it probably didn't happen anyway, but the whole incident, from soup to nuts, seems shitty and not worthy of praise.
posted by OmieWise at 10:53 AM on March 11, 2008

Part of the problem with the incident that OmieWise is describing is the thing I was mentioning in another MeTa thread... we (where we = society, not necessarily people here) get really congratulatory when people who have been dealt a really crappy hand somehow get even. I think part of this is identifying with the underdog, part of this is just liking to believe in justice or karma or whathaveyou. When the people are, for example, survivors of abuse, there is a little more tolerance or acceptance of "an eye for an eye" retribution which would normally be totally unacceptable, in my worldview anyhow. We see this in MeFi where the snarkee becomes the snarker and it's somehow more "justified" snark than it would be if it were just unprovoked.

Anyhow, I felt like the story was a bit of a tall tale anyhow. Bringing someone for support = okay in my book. Intimidating someone who is likely just some lame dorky office functionary = much less so, especially if the recounting of events is sketch or suspect. Even though I have a bit of the underdog affinity myself, there are times where I'm just disinclined to believe, because I often feel that people can't be as terrible as others are describing (we see this a lot with relationshipfilter "what's the other side of the story here...?) and before I really get morally outraged, I have to be damned sure that it's not because someone is jerking my chain.

The online/unreal nature of this I think makes this more cut and dried from an observer's perspective and the one-sided nature of most AskMe reporting does lead to situations where we're being asked to take a story at face value that might be sort of true but may be a little untrue. I'm happier just moving on and giving people advice on how to get in to library school or where to find good mini golf in the DC area, but the desire to understand and to help is strong and these weird stories -- really the weirder they are, the more the people seem to need help to untangle them, don't they? -- drive attention like nothing else.
posted by jessamyn at 11:14 AM on March 11, 2008 [5 favorites]

It is pretty weird that people are jumping up to defend un owen's actions here. It seems that she requested some sort of exemption from the scholarship rules at her school based on certain claims and then freaked out when they asked for proof of her claims (justifiably, according to her). She doesn't exactly have a reputation for telling the whole truth here on Metafilter, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose there is a chance she is a little liberal with the truth in real life too. Now she physically intimidates someone at her school into accepting her story without any proof at all. I can sort of understand supporting that, if one takes her story at face value, but given what we know of her, the story leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
posted by ssg at 11:22 AM on March 11, 2008

OmieWise, I know what you mean, and I think I was seeing that episode through my own particular filter, and it was colored by my experience with that sort of person. Plus, yea, it's probably totally fake.
posted by Mister_A at 11:23 AM on March 11, 2008

We are all of us rough-hewn cogs in a marvelous machine.
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:27 AM on March 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

I can sort of understand supporting that, if one takes her story at face value, but given what we know of her, the story leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

But keep in mind, when she posted the story as "IB's wife," it wasn't common knowledge at that point that it was U.N.Owen, Known Fabulist. Hence the inclination of a number of so many people to give her the benefit of the doubt (or just gloss over the ridiculousness of the story entirely), especially given the "underdog/abuse survivor asserts self to mean, faceless bureaucrat, rah rah rah" narrative.
posted by scody at 11:41 AM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

scody: I agree with you. That's why I said that it is "weird that people are jumping up to defend un owen's actions here" i.e. in this thread.
posted by ssg at 11:46 AM on March 11, 2008

I don't think anyone is defending her actions so much as they're defending their responses in that thread.
posted by puke & cry at 11:51 AM on March 11, 2008

You shouldn't confuse people's approval of a narrative for their belief in it.
I'm not sure what this means. Seriously.

Sorry, let me expand a bit.

Her story bears much in common with these narratives -- charming little revenge stories that completely fall apart under scrutiny. What starts with "yay, cool for that person" becomes "They let their Aunt Millie fly in from Milwaukee for that? How selfish."

But the narrative remains popular nonetheless, and if that story showed up as a followup to an AskMe ("I think my fiancee is cheating on me... what should I do?") it would be met with similar support -- despite the fact that if it really happened the way it was told, it would be a really shitty thing to do.

People like these stories, and the fact that people in that thread are saying "Yeah! You should have brought an even bigger guy wearing a hockey mask and carrying a chainsaw!" should probably not be taken literally. IMHO they're just adding their own take on what would make the revenge story sweeter.
posted by tkolar at 12:21 PM on March 11, 2008

For the benefit of the ignorant, the u.n. owen case file.
posted by Krrrlson at 12:26 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Bleagh. I'm glad sansgras has been vindicated(ish). I never saw much discrepancy in her posts--in fact, I was really glad to read in her later posts/questions that she was dating someone, as it would get her out of the house with her oppressive father.

Her story is plausible to me because I know a girl who is in pretty much her position. Extremely oppressive, traditional Middle-Eastern father. Entered college at an extremely young age, graduated at a young age. Their stories diverge because the girl I know met people in college who introduced her to new, not-religiously-dogmatic ideas and lots of drugs. Good in some ways, but not in others, because though she's well-versed in partying very, very hard, she's not versed in supporting herself, and lives a schizophrenic lifestyle where she parties more than is healthy for her while attempting to maintain a facade of purity in front of her parents.

So I could fully imagine what would happen if that girl was not introduced to a different lifestyle in college, or resisted that lifestyle more. Instead of barely passing classes because she was high all the time, she could graduate early because her incredibly insular family life left her not much to do with herself besides study. know kids in my school who entered five year undergrad/masters tracks and got their masters in the four years (a couple have done it in three, those hyperintelligent bastards), so her getting her master's by twenty would not be crazy to me. Then she goes straight to a job, because that's all she really knows how to do next, and starts contemplating med school because nothing says success to her family like an M.D.

The insecurity, immaturity, and extreme self-analyzing behavior would be perfectly in line with someone raised in a controlled environment where they were not allowed social outlets outside the family. I mean, has nobody else here noticed that when you grow up with few friends, when you finally start talking to people all you have to talk about is yourself?

Finally, I see no disconnect in how quick her relationships moved when she finally started them. Jesus Christ, it was my impression that 70-80% of MeFites were or are dateless nerdlings at some point in their lives! If so, then people, you cannot possibly be arguing then that lack of dates and sex immediately translates to lack of interest in dates and sex, and creates hesitation to engage in those activities when the opportunities finally arise. I don't know about you guys, but the friends I've had who didn't get a chance to get laid until after high school weren't about to start playing blushing, shrinking virgin when that chance finally happened. Not so much "Aw, shucks, let's just hold hands for a while" as "SWEET JESUS FINALLY PLEASE TAKE ME NOW DEAR GOD".
posted by schroedinger at 12:32 PM on March 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

With the proviso that the story is probably more fiction than fact, as presented it's pretty plausible. Leaving aside the emotional aspects of it the central point seemed to be that the prior official and the current official disagreed on a technicality, and plenty of posters with relevant experience chimed in to concur that there was no solid, universal standard by which to judge that point.

Having dealt with my share of admissions departments I have no trouble at all believing that those central facts could easily have been true.
posted by Skorgu at 12:32 PM on March 11, 2008

[IB's wife, who used to indeed be U.N. Owen]

For those who wondered honestly, "what happened to me" is pretty normal. I'm going back to college, married (for about 2 years now, with a Disney World ceremony, and this account is his, though he doesn't use it much any more because he's more active on reddit), and living a normal life in a normal house with normal friends and a bunch of not entirely normal pets. The fact that the combined wrath of metafilter came down on me once really, actually fucked with me quite a bit. I never got my own account, for one thing, because of it.

I'm still fat, so if you want to make fun of me for that, that's cool.

But yeah, if you ever want to go get drinks or something, let me know. I'd already told a few people on metafilter my super-seekrit identity, but whatever, if it's public, I guess what's done is done. By the way -- in case anyone wondered, my money problems are over and have been for some time. The people who helped back then were actually a genuinely good help, whether you want to believe that or not. Today, with my financial aid money, I got the laptop I'd ordered from the Dell outlet. I paid my rent on time for the 12th consecutive month. I got a cute skirt on clearance and am wearing it. These are pretty new and cool things for me. They might not be for you, but they are for me. In three years, I'll have a dual degree in education and political science. That'll be pretty neat, too, since the first time around in school, I didn't get to finish.

Your detective work and memories are excellent. If you'd like, I'll leave again. I was originally asked by Jessamyn to leave (without, it's worth noting, even asking if I had documentation to back up my story -- which I did, for at least 95% of it), and my husband will continue or not, as is his wish. It's been several years since all of that occurred. We have mefimail now. If you'd like to ask me about any part of that, I would be...not exactly happy, but okay with answering just about any question from that part of my life.

I bet you changed a lot from when you were 20 until you turned 24, too. It was my birthday on Sunday. I was hoping for a fresh start to the year. If any of you see fit to give it to me, that'd be awesome. If it's only going to cause drama, I'll make an exit, because I'm really not in favor of internet drama at this point in time (nor real life drama -- I even chickenshitted out on giving my mom's boyfriend a passive-aggressive gift, and I'm glad, since they broke up since).
posted by InnocentBystander at 12:39 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

[Additionally, I will not be monitoring this thread, because last time, it made me pretty depressed for a long time. If you want to talk to me, use mefi mail. I'll read that. This sort of thread, where everyone jumps on someone and defenses are impossible, is really painful to read if you've been part of it. Whether you think it was deserved or not, it still sucks to read it. So I won't, and if you'd like to make angry annoyed comments or nice ones, mefimail is the place to do it. Besides, this is a different thread, on a different topic.]
posted by InnocentBystander at 12:44 PM on March 11, 2008

IB's wife: I'm genuinely curious, why are there too different timelines for your childhood bullying story?
posted by fermezporte at 12:46 PM on March 11, 2008

.
posted by Mister_A at 12:47 PM on March 11, 2008

By the way -- in case anyone wondered, my money problems are over and have been for some time. The people who helped back then were actually a genuinely good help, whether you want to believe that or not.

You offering refunds?
posted by ND¢ at 12:48 PM on March 11, 2008 [7 favorites]

wah wah wah. You weren't a victim U.N. Owen - you actually were the victimizer. There are many better people on this site who are able to take any thread and become the "victim" in it. You, however, are not one of those people.
posted by Stynxno at 12:53 PM on March 11, 2008

Just when we thought we were out of popcorn....
posted by Big_B at 12:54 PM on March 11, 2008

This seems like the right place to make this announcement: My next band is going to be called Coronado Paranoiac Jurassic Starlight. That's from a spam that seems to have been sent by William S. Burroughs.
posted by Mister_A at 12:59 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Don't care much about the drama and the fraud, since this ilk is all over the internet. Surprised that MetaFilter got taken by it, though.

"this account is his, though he doesn't use it much any more because he's more active on reddit)"

I think this is total bullshit. If it's his account, then you should not be using it without disclaiming every single time that it's you.

"The fact that the combined wrath of metafilter came down on me once really, actually fucked with me quite a bit."

If you earned that wrath fair and square? Then, shut up. If you didn't, that's something altogether different. But, I hope you're not making a sympathy play because the big bad meanie detective squad here found you out.

" I never got my own account, for one thing, because of it."

Again, I find this to be patently against the guidelines and in direct opposition to how things are supposed to work around here. You were banned. Hiding under someone else's account is wrong. Blaming us for the fact that you couldn't bear to get your own account is worse.

"The people who helped back then were actually a genuinely good help"

Yeah, free cash usually is genuinely good.

"If you'd like, I'll leave again."

It's not up to me, but yeah, I'd like you to leave. I'm all for people making a fresh start at MetaFilter, but that means actually START OVER. Without the drama, the lying, the hinky AskMes, the conflicting stories. If you're still here, wearing "u.n. owen" like a bloody badge of bizarre pride, and circumventing the guidelines for participation, you've certainly not started over.

"I bet you changed a lot from when you were 20 until you turned 24, too. "

Not even remotely the point here. Pathetic red herring.

"I was hoping for a fresh start to the year. If any of you see fit to give it to me, that'd be awesome."

And skulking around a site where you were banned, posting while using someone else's account, secretly, seemed the right way to make your fresh start? Only, we are somehow in control of whether you receive that fresh start?

"I'm really not in favor of internet drama"

You don't say. You sure do still seem to love playing the victim, though. All grownsed up, huh?
posted by pineapple at 12:59 PM on March 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

Things like this always make me reflect on the words of wisdom from the great St. Twain: "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything."
posted by Drastic at 1:01 PM on March 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

Just when we thought we were out of popcorn....

...and were all set to fold-up the lawn chairs.
posted by ericb at 1:21 PM on March 11, 2008

I'd be interested to know if there was ever a guy behind the InnocentBystander name or if it was just un owen fucking with everyone.
posted by puke & cry at 1:28 PM on March 11, 2008

Wow, this just got waaaaaaay more entertaining! Pity I have a class tonight or I'd be happily nuking the popcorn right now. I'm trying and failing to remember, wasn't there also some Monkeyfilter U.N. Owen drama at around the same time as the stuff on the gray? Under yet another name?
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:42 PM on March 11, 2008

Hmmm, InnocentBystander's account page still looks live.
posted by Mister_A at 1:45 PM on March 11, 2008

Anyway, nice use of the Chewbacca defense, UN Owen/InnocentBystander.
posted by Mister_A at 1:47 PM on March 11, 2008

YAY! I cannot get enough of this stuff.

*rolls around in filth*
posted by Skot at 1:51 PM on March 11, 2008 [5 favorites]

(Though I am guessing that the admins are lighting their hair on fire. My condolences.)
posted by Skot at 1:52 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Don't hog the filth, skot.
posted by Mister_A at 2:02 PM on March 11, 2008

Why is this still open? Admin-strategery?

Hey everybody, our attention to this thread is preventing us from posting new, and similarly awesome/awful spectacles on MeTa!
posted by cior at 2:06 PM on March 11, 2008

[comment removed - reproducing hateful comments from other sites here when you could just as easily link to them is making a bad situation worse.]
posted by jessamyn at 2:08 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

There are people who want this thread closed? There has never been, and may never be, a greater thread than this.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 2:10 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think that's the first time I've seen a comment removed from MeTa.
posted by triggerfinger at 2:12 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh look Dennis, there's some lovely filth over here!

InnocentBystander's quest for a passive-aggressive gift! Later mentions in the thread it's "IB's wife" (now known as u.n. owen) posting--are we surprised, given the dramatic story and petty methods taken for resolution? The stalking ex takes on a new light in consideration of the saga of Ross and Jeanette, given that she leveled the same accusations against him when he attempted to collect unpaid rent. And there's the familiar claims of abuse, childhood trauma and adulthood martyrdom (that one got a lot of favorites), and sexually themed comments that are sure to establish the sort of persona people pay attention to! And that's just the stuff claimed under IB's wife. Who knows what's real and not in IB's posting history?
posted by schroedinger at 2:14 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

It's like two witch-hunts in one thread! The intellectual, empathetic side of me says, "Haven't any of you lived? Do you really think you are truly in control of your lives at any time? Have any of you experienced pain, emotional instability, fears, need to be accepted? Can't you see these are human beings, just like yourself?" The lizard brain side of me says, "Oooooh, a mob is gathering, where's my camcorder? Will there be bottles thrown?" I think I'll leave the stadium before I become more disillusioned.

What building is it? The asylum? The
posted by not_on_display at 2:15 PM on March 11, 2008

(whoops, seems my hand hit "post" before I could finish. Probably no accident, that. Listen to the subconscious!)
posted by not_on_display at 2:16 PM on March 11, 2008

wow, she's back. one wonders if the Innocent Bystander account will post again.
posted by shmegegge at 2:22 PM on March 11, 2008

Have any of you experienced pain, emotional instability, fears, need to be accepted?

Yes and through it all I have managed to not scam money out of people by lying to them. I must be a fucking saint!
posted by ND¢ at 2:22 PM on March 11, 2008

Now we just need to learn that at least 25% of metafilter members are actually dhoyt and this thread will be assured a place in the hall of fame.
posted by drezdn at 2:26 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

The intellectual, empathetic side of me says, "Haven't any of you lived? Do you really think you are truly in control of your lives at any time? Have any of you experienced pain, emotional instability, fears, need to be accepted? Can't you see these are human beings, just like yourself?"

The intellectual, empathetic side of me says, "The fantastical stories and endless need for attention are very characteristic of people who became emotionally 'stuck' around the age of 7. And come to think of it, I find these people every bit as tiresome as a 7 year old who's homework was stolen by nazi frogmen."

In short, the fact that the behavior is 'natural' doesn't make it any less annoying.

You don't even want to know what my lizard brain thinks.
posted by tkolar at 2:26 PM on March 11, 2008

schroedinger said: "InnocentBystander's quest for a passive-aggressive gift!"

Ho. Lee. Shit. I totally remember that one. When I read it originally, I remember it didn't pass my sniff test.... it wasn't the interest in buying an eff-you gift... it was the oh-so-carefully crafted narrative. I'm sure she dined out for days on the 79 favorites that it garnered (which I suspect is also the reason she carefully mentioned it here again).
posted by pineapple at 2:26 PM on March 11, 2008

Mister_A: "Hmmm, InnocentBystander's account page still looks live."

Yeah, I don't understand why the account hasn't been closed, either. un owen was, apparently, asked to leave the site by jessamyn (not that I'll believe that until jessamyn confirms it) and has been using another person's account, only occasionally indicating that she's not the original owner of that account (sound familiar?!).

She's just taking the piss. Again. And I can't see how it doesn't merit an instant ban. (Shame for the supposed husband who bought the account, but since he's not using it anyway...)
posted by jack_mo at 2:27 PM on March 11, 2008

Getcher tar right here! Hot tar, ten dollars same as in town! Feathers at the next booth, sorry.
posted by languagehat at 2:27 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think everyone in this thread should be banned.
posted by Mister_A at 2:29 PM on March 11, 2008

FILTH FIIIIILTH

not_on_display, if there was evidence, any evidence at all, that u.n. owen was not the same u.n. owen who set the Internets a-fire years ago that would be one thing. But from her posting, u.n. owen/Jeanette Vanderbosch/musingmelpomene/who-knows-what-else is the same person she has always been, just under a different name.

It is possible to go through hard times without willfully lying and hurting a bunch of people--or at least trying to avoid it and feeling bad and apologizing when it happens. And because this Metatalk thread needs to hit as many cliches as possible, I have to do what I'm going to do next.

You know who else lies to people and doesn't care?
posted by schroedinger at 2:31 PM on March 11, 2008

I miss ole sansgras already.
posted by Mister_A at 2:32 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

I'M WITH THE BANNED.
posted by dersins at 2:34 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hm? Oh yeah, we sell feathers, here.

What? Yeah, it's the same price as in town.

Because then you'd have to walk to town to get them, and I'm right here.

I don't know.

Do I look like I give a fuck what the fuck benefits town has? Are you buying feathers or not?

FINE! FUCK YOU, THEN! And you know what, maybe I will call you when I garner a better appreciation for the keynesian economic model! Also when I'm done fucking your mother!

Hm? Yeah, we got feathers, here.
posted by shmegegge at 2:35 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Did the mods know of Innocentbystander's "connection" to owens? There have been some members who were booted/left only to be allowed back under a different name provided they didn't stir up problems again.
posted by drezdn at 2:36 PM on March 11, 2008

This is the best of the web. Sad and true!
posted by everichon at 2:36 PM on March 11, 2008

*plops LARGE RAIL onto ground, wipe brow*

Someone needed a rail, here? Can one of you sign for this?
posted by everichon at 2:38 PM on March 11, 2008

I'm just sayin'. Or not. I must get my own fucking blog one day, so the whole world will see things my way. Anyway, have fun. Or not.
posted by not_on_display at 2:38 PM on March 11, 2008

drezdn: "Did the mods know of Innocentbystander's "connection" to owens? There have been some members who were booted/left only to be allowed back under a different name provided they didn't stir up problems again."

Seems safe to say that Jessamyn does, seeing as she commented above, long after InnocentBystander confirmed that she is indeed un owen (and what a username to pick for her comeback that is!).

Is anyone else secretly hoping that it turns out to be dhoyt pretending to be un owen in the guise of InnocentBystander?
posted by jack_mo at 2:47 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'd already told a few people on metafilter my super-seekrit identity, but whatever, if it's public, I guess what's done is done.

I remember you telling me a few months ago, and although I remember the conversation and would mention it every now and then to people ("Wonder where u.n. owen is?" "Funny story, she IMed me one night..."), I had completely forgotten until now the account you were associated with (I seem to recall you mentioned it to me as your husband's and not as one you yourself were using, though it was a long time ago and I could be wrong) . I'm all for giving people a second, third, whatever chance, and I wish you could have one, but I don't know if it's possible to get one without completely starting over and never, ever revealing who you "really" are. Which is sad, but, again, I have no better ideas.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:53 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Did the mods know of Innocentbystander's "connection" to owens?

We just found out as you guys did. The old u.n. owen account has been banned. I'd like to make a very public request that u.n. owen not use her husband's account from this point forward. Sharing accounts more than extremely rarely is very uncool.

IB or u.n. owen can follow up with me or cortex via email or IM with the caveat that I'm on the road until late tomorrow night. If you're flush now I guess I'd like my $20 back.
posted by jessamyn at 2:55 PM on March 11, 2008 [14 favorites]

"I find these people every bit as tiresome as a 7 year old who's homework was stolen by nazi frogmen."

Truly, the tragedy there is that it makes it harder for those of us who, at seven, had their homework stolen by Nazi frogmen.
posted by klangklangston at 2:57 PM on March 11, 2008 [10 favorites]

Whom had their homework stolen?

Just fucking atrophy already, dative case.
posted by klangklangston at 2:59 PM on March 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

This really raises more questions than it answers. Are these frogmen like guys in wetsuits or are these half-frog half-men, and if so, were they made into these horrific creatures by twisted Nazi scientists, or are these a hideous race of half-frog half-men that just so happened to find the tenets of national socialism appealing?
posted by ND¢ at 3:03 PM on March 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

It was half shark alligator half man. In my case, anyway.
posted by everichon at 3:09 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Can you imagine working at this place?
posted by Mister_A at 3:10 PM on March 11, 2008

Someone needed a rail, here? Can one of you sign for this?
posted by everichon at 5:38 PM on March 11

Oh hey, I can.

Waaaaaaaait a minute. Last time I signed for a rail, it was one of them INTO town type rails. I ain't signing for nothing till I know for damn sure it's an OUTTA town rail, this time.
posted by shmegegge at 3:13 PM on March 11, 2008

*waits to see if the (now known) u.n.owen refunds jessamyn her $20(SAIT)*
posted by languagehat at 3:19 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Yeah, the IB/UN thing was a surprise to us. I've been doing some research on IPs and posting histories to try and pin things down as best as I can. My best guess based on that:

InnocentBystander is a guy who joined the site in November of 2004. Actual guy, papertrail exists on the internet. Possibility exists that the papertrail itself is all a fabrication, of course, but that proposition is more pathological and far-reaching than I'm willing to entertain at the moment.

In a thread on the blue in December 2004, IB elliptically calls UN "a friend", UN chastises him with a joke about not letting him move in if he doesn't take it back, and IB clarifies that she is the most wonderful girl ever.

Pretty strongly suggests they knew each other, whether as close friends or romantic partners, when IB signed up the previous month; and based on IP collisions, they were likely roommates indeed when the big u.n. owen kerfluffle kicked up end of Feb, beginning of March 2005.

Which is neither here nor there, but it does suggest a timeline for potential account-sharing that goes back as far as the original meltdown. Which, itself, is kind of a shitty implication; I don't know how often and how early she actually started using his account, post-meltdown, but a span of three years and a clear record of regular sharing at this point is pretty fucked up and not okay, and she needs to cut it out pronto. If the dude himself isn't really using the account, I'm inclined to think we should just close it and leave it at that.

I'll drop her a line, regardless.
posted by cortex at 3:26 PM on March 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

If you're flush now I guess I'd like my $20 back.

If she's flush now, I'd like to see her pay everyone back. (And I say that as someone's who's not owed a penny.)

Having said that, I'm looking forward to the elaborate story and narrative sleights of hand she'll concoct to explain why she couldn't possibly do such a thing. Overseas phone sex investment schemes gone awry, leading to a pan-European scandal of epic proportions, possibly reaching all the way to Crown Prince Otto? Or just difficulties with Paypal?

If the dude himself isn't really using the account, I'm inclined to think we should just close it and leave it at that.

Wasn't the u.n.owen account actually opened up by someone else, too, and she assumed "ownership" of it later as well?

Geez, the lengths some people will go to just to avoid paying $5.
posted by scody at 3:35 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

pretty fucked up and not okay

Considering you have no idea, no systematic way of preventing account sharing, and it all hinges on a gentleman's agreement not to do it, I'm sort of surprised by this. Would that Metafilter held the same value on identity when it comes to people using sockpuppets.

Surely it has to be about identity, and not that one instance prevents $5 extra going in the coffers, and the latter means multiples of that.
posted by Dave Faris at 3:39 PM on March 11, 2008

*waits to see if the (now known) u.n.owen refunds jessamyn her $20(SAIT)*

You really are a patient fellow.
posted by tkolar at 3:40 PM on March 11, 2008

> pretty fucked up and not okay

Considering you have no idea, no systematic way of preventing account sharing, and it all hinges on a gentleman's agreement not to do it, I'm sort of surprised by this. Would that Metafilter held the same value on identity when it comes to people using sockpuppets.

Obviously we have no 100% systematic way to detect or prevent account sharing. The same goes for self-linking, though, and yet we consider willful, undisclosed self-linking to be pretty fucked up and not okay as well. We also consider abusive use of sockpuppets to be out of line, and I've had varyingly polite discussions with a few different people in the last year over the issue.

Contrary to whatever may be popular belief, sockpuppet accounts that we know about and that are being used for other than utterly lighthearted or e.g. sparing, legit (as opposed to abusive) askme emergency-handling or anonymization? Probably gonna get closed down when we see the problematic behavior. While we can't be 100% certain about things, we've been steadily building up our toolset for detecting fishy inter-account hijinks.

If two people are sharing an account and it never, ever comes to light, does it make a sound? I think habitual account-sharing is bad, just on principle. Buy an extra account. If $5 is a hardship, write to us and explain the situation.

I think genuinely occasional posting-for-my-wife/friend/father stuff is not so bad, particularly when it is explicitly disclosed as such. I don't think that's much of anything like what's going on in the IB/UN situation here, by UN's own admission, and I think the situation here is decidedly fucked, yes.
posted by cortex at 3:52 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Are these frogmen like guys in wetsuits or are these half-frog half-men, and if so, were they made into these horrific creatures by twisted Nazi scientists, or are these a hideous race of half-frog half-men that just so happened to find the tenets of national socialism appealing?"

Yes, all of those. They are half-man-half-frog chimera that also wear wetsuits, some of them created by Nazis and some of them coming to national socialism though a misguided scapegoating of the Jews for the tadpole collapse of '29. And when Abe Sapien fights them, it gets really hard to draw.

I only shudder to think of what those mutated bastards will do with a report on the agricultural production of Michigan. Some sort of sugar beet evil, likely.
posted by klangklangston at 4:00 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Also, the frogmen say that $5 is a hardship as Paypal is painfully bound to a monetary-exchange model, refusing to accept flies, grubs, larvae or scum in exchange for funds, and they would like their own account so that they can start posting to the green as their own sockpuppets.
posted by klangklangston at 4:03 PM on March 11, 2008

Aside from a throw-away joke sockpuppet, is there really any legitimate use? For the sake of the community's need and desire for identity security (as amply demonstrated in this thread) I'd suggest it's "no."
posted by Dave Faris at 4:07 PM on March 11, 2008

Sock puppets are great for AskMe when you have a question you don't want attached to your meatspace identity.
posted by small_ruminant at 4:26 PM on March 11, 2008

Though, due to a combination of cheapness and laziness I've just used the "anonymous" feature instead.
posted by small_ruminant at 4:30 PM on March 11, 2008

jessamyn, cortex: By u.n. owen's own admission, innocentBystander doesn't use his account anymore - she does. I'm kind of confused as to why his account's still active. Is u.n. owen really deserving of the benefit of the doubt that she won't use IB's account?
posted by Item at 4:30 PM on March 11, 2008

warning: previous comment contains ugly, awkward syntax.
posted by Item at 4:31 PM on March 11, 2008

Dave, I get the impression that you feel strongly... about something.... can you just come right out and make yourself clear? All this beating around the bush doesn't help anyone.
posted by pineapple at 4:35 PM on March 11, 2008

Is u.n. owen really deserving of the benefit of the doubt that she won't use IB's account?

It's not benefit of the doubt here so much as "waiting for a response". Shutting down an account that I'm hoping for a mefimail response from would be silly, in other words, though I rather doubt we'll see much onsite activity from IB in the interim.

Aside from a throw-away joke sockpuppet, is there really any legitimate use? For the sake of the community's need and desire for identity security (as amply demonstrated in this thread) I'd suggest it's "no."

Personally, I don't really disagree with you. In practice, we're likely to take these things on an as-they-come basis, so if what you're hoping for is a hardline declaration followed by a systematic mass-banning of known and suspected socks, you're going to be disappointed.
posted by cortex at 4:43 PM on March 11, 2008

We are all of us rough-hewn cogs (also some shitass looney borderline personality disorder psychic vampire basketcases who make even this callused wino shiver in sympathetic douche chills) in a marvelous machine (and that's fine with me).

Do you ever get that I feel for someone who's being a weirdo/jerk thing and have it battle your sincere righteous indignation? Can that be adjusted somehow?
posted by Divine_Wino at 4:47 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

(waits to hear if Jessamyn gets paid back by InnocentBystander in coupons for I Can't Believe It's Not Butter!).

HURF DURF INTERNET FRAUD ORGY!
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 4:49 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Divine_Wino, I find that the two sometimes collide, fumble about in the dark for a bit, and come back out merged together into a sort of sighing pragmatism that desperately needs a cigarette. Also: rough-hewn clogs.
posted by cortex at 4:54 PM on March 11, 2008

Best Metatalk thread ever. Glad I spent 3 days going through it and its related threads.

*inserts ILOVETHISTHREADSOMUCH.jpg*
posted by m0nm0n at 5:32 PM on March 11, 2008

I've got the exact pair Cortex, except mine say my government name burned in by a soldering iron, apparently if your grandma is Swedish you get those shits on some kind of government stipend around age five, they're wicked uncomfortable. Also yeah, I'm due three or four Camel Lights when I walk the dog.
posted by Divine_Wino at 5:38 PM on March 11, 2008

I've followed the sansgras threads and call-outs since the beginning, so it was more an issue of checking up every once in a while to see what else has transpired. Except now my strong curiosity about past scandals and to be "in" on all the in-jokes is clashing with my desire to pass my courses. Do I follow the multitudes of u.n. owen threads or do I prepare for tomorrow's presentation?

Sigh.
posted by Phire at 5:43 PM on March 11, 2008

This is freaking great! This is the like THE MEGATHREAD! Can we talk about givewell now, too?

Weee! Silenced all my life!!
posted by dirtdirt at 6:03 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Additionally, I will not be monitoring this thread, because last time, it made me pretty depressed for a long time.

Now that is total bullshit. She will be hitting reload along with the rest of us.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 6:09 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

She will be hitting reload along with the rest of us.

She probably has another "previously owned" account all ready to go and is deciding how best to deploy it.
posted by amyms at 6:14 PM on March 11, 2008

Man, Metafilter IS still enjoyable!
posted by Kafkaesque at 6:19 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Man, Metafilter IS still Kafkaesque!
posted by tkolar at 6:31 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I've been using Lentrohamsanin's account, but it's cool because he's my lived in lover. We share the same pants and everything.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 6:33 PM on March 11, 2008

PST, you should get a free pass for pretty much anything wicked you do since you sang Jingle Rock Bell. I still listen every Christmas.
posted by sugarfish at 6:38 PM on March 11, 2008

he's my lived in lover

Lived in? As in the euphemism for 'used'?

As in the kind you find in a second-hand store?

♫ Raaaaaaaaspberry beret. ♫
posted by CKmtl at 7:02 PM on March 11, 2008

Too soon!
posted by cior at 7:32 PM on March 11, 2008

cior, that's not cool. seriously not cool.
posted by miss lynnster at 7:45 PM on March 11, 2008

(but yeah, I'm a sap)
posted by cior at 7:46 PM on March 11, 2008

New Rules of Metafilter:

new rule #1. You don't talk about sansgras.
new rule #2. You don't talk about sansgras.
new rule #3. sangras can only use metafilter through a hole in a sheet.

this is all rather silly.
posted by wantwit at 7:46 PM on March 11, 2008

not cool? I donated.

It's ridiculously unfortunate timing, that's all. Perhaps something for us all to chew on, morally speaking, in light of this thread.
posted by cior at 7:48 PM on March 11, 2008

Perhaps something for us all to chew on, morally speaking, in light of this thread.

I think so- I don't think it was wrong of you to bring it to Metatalk, anyway.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:51 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I saw the nickyskye site in Projects and it broke my heart that someone so warm and gracious would find herself most in need right at the time that the un owen crap resurfaced. I hope like hell that nickyskye finds herself with an extra $250 in groceries courtesy of un owen (I'd hope even more that the original "creditors" would get their money back as well, but since I'm sure some of them are long gone I think it would be fitting if any unclaimed money were to go to someone who represents the best of MeFi rather than staying in the hands of someone who represents the worst.)
posted by stefanie at 8:02 PM on March 11, 2008 [6 favorites]

Wasn't the u.n.owen account actually opened up by someone else, too, and she assumed "ownership" of it later as well?

Bartered for a gmail address no less. Although, like apparently everything else in her life or that comes out of her mouth, I suspect that's bullshit.
posted by jerseygirl at 8:05 PM on March 11, 2008

I find it on one hand distasteful for Nickyskye to have been brought up in this particular thread. It's clear to me as a regular reader (and rather more sporadic participant) that her situation and her place in this community is nothing, nothing like certain others mentioned above. On the other hand, I didn't know about her page before, and I'm grateful that it's now got my attention.
posted by houseofdanie at 8:06 PM on March 11, 2008

PinkStainlessTail!
posted by Item at 8:14 PM on March 11, 2008

miss lynnster wrote...
cior, that's not cool. seriously not cool.

I disagree. It's too easy while wading through this muck to forget that there are genuine people in need of genuine help in the world.
posted by tkolar at 8:43 PM on March 11, 2008

Everyone needs a hug. BARKEEP! HUGS! All aroun'. and another Jameson for me.

Whatchoo lookin' at?! C'mere, gimme a hug. I won't throw up on your fav'rit T shirt, promise.
posted by not_on_display at 8:44 PM on March 11, 2008

Yo, seriously, if any of you want to do right by a fucking super righteous awesome magic special member of metafilter who isn't pulling any kind of bullshit and deserves all of our love and any kind of friendly contributions, please check this out here. That's Nickyskye and she's fucking well important.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:51 PM on March 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

I'm very glad to have seen the Nickyskye link -- I wouldn't have seen it otherwise.

Mods: can we consider it for the sidebar?
posted by scody at 9:06 PM on March 11, 2008

You people amaze me.

U,N.Owen/Innocentbystander is a real person, with feelings. Apparently she managed to piss off a bunch of you four years ago.

Four years is a long time, particularly for someone young. I'd like to see the Brand New Day policy liberally applied. And for those of you who gave her money, well, people, this is the internet and you had to know that such is always a risk-that is the nature of the beast.

I don't know and I frankly do not care who was right and who was wrong four years ago. I know that I certainly am not the same person who was banned back in 2002, and altho I am not universally beloved I still feel I have a place here. How's about we give her a chance to do likewise?

(And yes, I have corresponded with her privately, and at length-and no, I'm not sharing. But I think she deserves a chance to redeem herself. If it takes a fresh user name, whatever. I personally think they should let her keep innocentbystander especially since we all know it is her now anyway. But whatever.)

Remember, it's really pretty easy to get one's internet rep trashed whether or not it's deserved...treat her like YOU would like to be treated, folks.
posted by konolia at 9:35 PM on March 11, 2008

treat her like YOU would like to be treated, folks

But people already did that. And look where it got them.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 9:44 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

You people amaze me.

U,N.Owen/Innocentbystander is a real person, with feelings.

Yes, well, we are pretty fucking amazing.

Did you bother to read any of the many, many well-linked posts that document the fairly awesome swath this person has cut across the 'net in her very purple travels? I don't have any sense at all as you apparently do that this is anything close to a "real" person, much less one that has any meaningful feelings at all.

However, in the spirit of making this thread immortal, I think we should all send her our house keys and detailed directions to our homes and put up big colorful banners in our foyers reading "HEY THERE'S FROZEN BURRITOS IF YOU WANT!" Then in our profiles we can all include a touching story about how un owen touched each of our lives, our burritos, and our valuables.
posted by Skot at 9:49 PM on March 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

Oh, I've glanced at the pile, yes.

I have no proof that ANY of you all are real. Except for Nicky, who I have talked to. I'd rather just think the best and let the rest go.
posted by konolia at 9:56 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't know and I frankly do not care who was right and who was wrong four years ago. I know that I certainly am not the same person who was banned back in 2002, and altho I am not universally beloved I still feel I have a place here. How's about we give her a chance to do likewise?

Hmmm. No.

I swear, if there's one person here that would still fall for her manipulative bullshit after all this, it figures it'd be you.
posted by puke & cry at 10:00 PM on March 11, 2008 [6 favorites]

Frankly, konolia, I think Brand New Day only goes so far, and I think U.N. Owen is well past that point. As far as I am concerned, she is persona non grata. This is not my decision, obviously, but I think there's a point where someone has disrespected a community enough that they are best shoved out the door for good.

You say, well, maybe she's changed. And you know? You're right, and you are indeed an excellent example of that.

I lurked here for many, many years before I actually signed up, and I remember your previous incarnation. I think that banning was right, and I wasn't happy when I realized, eventually, just who "konolia" was. I thought and think that letting you back was a bad call based on the info at the time, and was far more likely to lead to further bad than not. Now, let me be clear: That hasn't happened in my opinion. If you even notice me, as I am still very much a lurker, you'll notice I am FAR from a fan of yours, but I am the first to agree that yes, you have a place here, and I'm glad you're here... most of the time ;-)

But that's hardly the most likely scenario. We don't consciously "Brand New Day" spammers, scammers, self-linkers, blatant and intentional trolls, etc., and for good reason. 99% of the time, they'll do nothing more than commit the same offenses they once did. ESPECIALLY if they are surreptitiously sneaking around a ban, knowing full well they're violating several written and unwritten site rules in the process, making it extremely clear where they feel about respecting the site.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure "konolia" never did that, and the mods (mod singular at that point?) knew who she is, and who she WAS.

U.N. Owen had her chance, and she took advantage of us. And when asked to leave? She just snuck on as another user and kept up her little masturbatory fabulist nonsense.

I appreciate where you come from, Konolia, but the U.N. Owen situation is not the bf situation.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 10:04 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

it's really pretty easy to get one's internet rep trashed whether or not it's deserved

That's an interesting point, though not one that I agree with. I've said many times that "he/she deserved it" isn't cause for crappy behavior towards people. On the other hand, I'm not inclined to extend any special courtesy to someone who seems to act with disregard for the guidelines and norms of the site. The $20 thing was a joke, I kissed that money goodbye a long time ago. However, if u.n. owen was sincere about saying she'd pay folks back eventually, then perhaps she should.

We give people second and third chances for all sorts of things but many of them involve drunkenness, major life changes, unusual crabbiness or something that was out of control that was now in control. Most of the time it involves an apology or a "gee that was messed up, sorry about that" which makes forgiveness a whole lot easier.

I'm willing to go a long way credulousness-wise for people who seem to be making an effort, who contribute as much or more than they take from the site, and who don't just seem to exist to stir shit up. Major drama members are exhausting from a moderator perspective and I guess I wind up asking "what's the upside?" in this instance. Doesn't mean people should be total dicks about it, but doesn't mean I'm going to bend over backwards to smooth everything over either.
posted by jessamyn at 10:04 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

I have no proof that ANY of you all are real.

Please stop this. Yes you do. Many of us are real people with trackable online and offline lives, addresses, contact information, photos, friends and lovers, and consistent personalities. This sort of hyperbole doesn't help anyone straighten any of this out.
posted by jessamyn at 10:07 PM on March 11, 2008 [12 favorites]

I have no proof that ANY of you all are real.

Yes you do

Well, actually that particular comment was a bit facetious....sorry.
posted by konolia at 10:15 PM on March 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm starting to get the urge to construct a fictional web persona in order to give everyone a the thrill of a MeFi bloodhound chase AND get a long, detailed, link-rich MeFi Wiki page. Of course... I might have been doing that all along. Suckers.
posted by orange swan at 10:15 PM on March 11, 2008

Let me make one more comment before I bow out and get some shuteye-in the ministry I am training in I see person after person after person with totally frakked up convoluted personal lives so when I see folks post similar things here I assume they are telling the truth-or at least that it isn't stretching things that what they are saying CAN easily BE true. And if I err I would rather err on the side of belief rather than disbelief (Unless money or safety is involved and then I do tend to try to behave with due diligence.)
posted by konolia at 10:19 PM on March 11, 2008

treat her like YOU would like to be treated, folks.

This kind of works two ways. If I'd been banned from a community for scamming money from its members, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have the gall to try and force them to accept me against their will by actually living and posting among them all that time, just as though nothing had happened. Partly because I'd be too ashamed of myself, partly because I'd be pretty damn sure that nobody would want anything to do with me.

Why anyone would actually *want* to be part of a community that regards them as a pariah, I've no idea, but it seems pretty peculiar to me. However, this I will say: secretly posting from someone else's account for four years, when you know that you've been banned doesn't actually strike me as someone that's keen to turn over a new leaf. Rather, it strikes me as the same old manipulative, over-entitled bullshit that got her into trouble in the first place.

Treat her like I'd like to be treated? Personally, if I behaved that way, I'd want people to shun me. For my own good. To give me the opportunity to start afresh with a community where I wasn't notorious for my dishonesty.

Your mileage may vary.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 10:20 PM on March 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

treat her like YOU would like to be treated, folks.

In all instances in life, the way I would like to be treated is "as awesomely as possible". Treating people awesomely who behave like douches reinforces that it's okay to act like a douche, and I'd really prefer if people didn't get the idea that acting like an ass is somehow acceptable. Rather than treat her how I'd like to be treated, I think that she should be treated fairly: that is, if you screw up AND apologize AND make a physical effort to undo the damage AND stop the behavior, then clearly you're not a douche and you can be given a second chance. If all you do is show up and say "I bet alot of you were different at 24 than you were at 20" then it doesn't even seem like you think you did anything wrong, and to treat you as awesomely as possible would only reinforce the negative behavior that you won't even own up to.
posted by 23skidoo at 10:37 PM on March 11, 2008

Forgiveness cannot be granted without contrition.
posted by Tenuki at 10:43 PM on March 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

We give people second and third chances for all sorts of things but many of them involve drunkenness

Awesome because I'm drunk right now and this thread is hilarious. I think I deserve a second chance though.
posted by ludwig_van at 10:45 PM on March 11, 2008

Er, we're not talking about throwing u.n. owen to the lions here. If she gets banned from MeFi I'm sure she can find some other place to hang out online. Or sneak back in... I so do not envy the mods here. So I'd support a decision to ban her. It's of little consequence to her and "addition by subtraction" for us. I like that we can bear and forebear with people struggling with addiction and mental health problems who sometimes don't behave well. But tolerating someone who habitually lies and scams us? No way.
posted by orange swan at 10:53 PM on March 11, 2008

cortex we've been steadily building up our toolset for detecting fishy inter-account hijinks.

All is known to mathowie and to him we must entrust the protection of our identities.
posted by James I at 10:55 PM on March 11, 2008

U,N.Owen/Innocentbystander is a real person, with feelings. Apparently she managed to piss off a bunch of you four years ago.

Well, I won't presume to speak for anyone else, but as a robotic super-ape, I say to hell with these real people and their carbon-based feelings.

treat her like YOU would like to be treated, folks.

I'd like to be treated like I'd learned my lesson, which was mostly to not embellish anecdotal doilies into lace afghans while the, I dunno, some kinda metaphorical cat what eats embroidery or something, is around.

The metaphoric cat being the detective squad here, obviously.

Anyway, away from the rhetorical torture, I was talking with another member about how prevarication and drama can take over someone's life. And I mean, yeah, doing a brief perusal of some of the anecdotes I've shared here, you'll be able to find inconsistencies, either intentional or accidental. Blame marijuana, fluid memory and an occasional shade of the truth to keep from disclosing a confidence or the source thereof.

But I remember embellishing quasi-intentionally, especially in high school. It's one of those things that gets away from you, retelling a story where something shifts from "wouldn't it have been cool if" to it happening, or something that gets blurted out, a misperception that's wrong in hindsight but more interesting than the truth. It sucks to have to correct those, to say to friends, "No, that's not actually what happened." It's even worse with some of my old buddies, because their takes on things that happened to me are now spun off into their memories as cinematic adventures, and correcting them makes their faces sink. But it's worth doing, I think. I mean, that way I don't have to feel guilty or weird, and I like to tell myself that it makes me appreciate the potential for interesting things in real life more.

And, if I might (at the bottom of a weird, long MeTa that I hope no one ever reads) humiliate myself a little bit here, I had an internet "relationship" with some girl who called herself "LA" (real name: "Lauren") who was on a Stabbing Westward AOL message board while I was in high school. We used to chat and do the weird long-distance relationship thing, except we'd never met and most of it was me being enthralled by her stories of overcoming childhood abuse and her drug addictions and how damn dirty she could be in a way that my high school brain found really compelling (I like to think that I wouldn't now, but that's arguably because I got burned). The weirdest detail that sticks out for me now is that she claimed to be on the television show "All That" on Nickelodeon, something that I suppose I could have checked out a bit more than I did.

Anyway, she was always at the center of some drama or another, and it all unraveled when she "cheated" on me with some other guy from the message board. Which is when it came out that she was, like, 14 and a liar (which made the naked pictures suddenly really creepy, even to my 18-year-old brain). Man, was I a fucking chump.

But she never came clean publicly. It was all these IMs and different stories to different people and it basically destroyed this community of about 20 people (hard as it is to imagine 20 people who cared about Stabbing Westward enough to be on a message board about them).

That's what all feels hinky about this—the lack of that moment where everything's out and public knowledge about what's going on and what different people know and, I guess, just the public acknowledgment of lying and taking the lumps that come with it. I mean, sure, Jeanette may have felt terrible about the things that people said about her here, and she may have been depressed for a long time afterwards, but that's still not the sort of Truth Commission that lets people feel like they can have unguarded moments around her again.

I dunno. Maybe it's just me.

But I'm having trouble treating her like I'd like to be treated.
posted by klangklangston at 11:08 PM on March 11, 2008 [12 favorites]

But I'm having trouble treating her like I'd like to be treated.

This is a problematic concept anyway. Hell, I'd like you all to chip in for a retirement/house on the Riviera fund for me.
posted by orange swan at 11:15 PM on March 11, 2008

Well said, klangklangston.
posted by tkolar at 11:18 PM on March 11, 2008

I'm 100% cool with treating her as I'd like to be treated. When I do something bad or stupid, please don't encourage or enable me; don't flatter me with attention for bad behavior; don't ever let me wallow in a muck of egocentric mania - and if I do, please don't ever get in there and roll around with me. If I try to take advantage of you, please kick me in the ass hard.
posted by taz at 11:39 PM on March 11, 2008 [16 favorites]

Yah, whatever the merits of the current case ... most people treat themselves like crap. The aphorism should probably be "treat others as you probably should like to be treated, but don't because you're a masochist."
posted by tkolar at 11:49 PM on March 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

I think to not embellish anecdotal doilies into lace afghans

Yeah, I'm not a "teen dominatrix with a yen for Brits" anymore, though the handle never changed. Man, those mid nineties were great for teen libertines.

konolia, most mefites, in my experience, are HELL of real. Like will-give-you-a-backrub and buy you a martini real.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:49 PM on March 11, 2008

I'm 100% cool with treating her as I'd like to be treated. When I do something bad or stupid, please don't encourage or enable me; don't flatter me with attention for bad behavior; don't ever let me wallow in a muck of egocentric mania - and if I do, please don't ever get in there and roll around with me. If I try to take advantage of you, please kick me in the ass hard.

Jebus fucking Christ on a stick, why the hell is this suddenly all about you?

*kicks taz hard for being such an egocentrist*

*then buys her a martini & gives her a backrub; in that order*
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:05 AM on March 12, 2008

(but that's just because i'm a masochist who wants to be kicked back, before getting in there and rolling around with her)
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:07 AM on March 12, 2008

UbuRoivas, martini and a backrub?

I was very interested.
/me then sees masochist comment and wishes luck to anyone who dares to try to mess around with Taz.
Taz is a badass in the nicest way.
posted by lilywing13 at 12:22 AM on March 12, 2008

badass in the nicest way sounds good!
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:25 AM on March 12, 2008

mmm... ass-punts, backrubs and early-morning martinis on the metatalk... *sings*

you-uuuuu make me feel so reeeeaaaaal
posted by taz at 12:32 AM on March 12, 2008

When the masochist says "hurt me" the true sadist says "no."
posted by Joseph Gurl at 12:49 AM on March 12, 2008 [6 favorites]

Hi. I'm here for the backrub I saw advertised?
posted by loiseau at 2:22 AM on March 12, 2008

WE CAN HAS BACKRUBS?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:47 AM on March 12, 2008

BACKRUBS ALL ROUND!

AND MARTINIS!
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:08 AM on March 12, 2008

Can you do my neck as well? It's got rather stiff sitting here and reading all this. And does anyone want the olive from my martini? Horrible things.
posted by MrMustard at 3:36 AM on March 12, 2008

As inappropriate as it is to compare nickyskye to unowen, I'm extremely glad that the projects page was posted here. I don't really go over to projects, so I'd have never seen it otherwise.
posted by Stewriffic at 4:01 AM on March 12, 2008

Wow. The thread that just keeps on giving.
posted by arha at 4:10 AM on March 12, 2008

But I think she deserves a chance to redeem herself. If it takes a fresh user name, whatever.

In addition to the other very cogent things that have been said about un owen's distinct lack of remorse or apology in this thread, I think it's worth pointing out that she did have a second chance, a chance to redeem herself. She has been posting here under a name that no one (very few) knew was her. While she didn't ask any of us for money, as far as I know, she did post excessively dramatic threads about her tragedy and trauma, which she moderated. There's no evidence that she's changed at all, she's even still trying to sell her books.

Now, I don't think that un owen set out (as in joined the site) to defraud MetaFilter before, I think it naturally developed out of the drama that she spun and the response to that drama. So far, with the InnocentBystander account (fabulous name, btw, under the circumstances), we have all of the same drama. That we don't yet have a scam doesn't indicate that un owen has changed. In fact, that we have the drama indicates that she hasn't.
posted by OmieWise at 4:40 AM on March 12, 2008

If you send money to an internet beggar, just like a beggar on the street, you shouldn't ever think you'll get it back. If you do, then you're a two-fold sucker.
posted by Dave Faris at 5:01 AM on March 12, 2008

don't ever let me wallow in a muck of egocentric mania - and if I do, please don't ever get in there and roll around with me

Metatalk: egocentric muck wrestling displays. Entry: $5, same as in town.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:30 AM on March 12, 2008

I hereby award this thread The Spool.
posted by iconomy at 6:18 AM on March 12, 2008 [5 favorites]

If we can't trust strangers on the internet, who can we trust?
posted by drezdn at 6:38 AM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

If we can't trust strangers on the internet, who can we trust?

Our governors.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:40 AM on March 12, 2008

There's two big thoughts I have about the whole thing. If the result of the first shunning depressed u.n. owen so much, why did she come back?

Secondly, if she had contacted the mods and said "hey, it's me, I fucked up in the past but I'd like a fresh start," and they knew and let her have a new account, while it wouldn't have made everyone happy, I would have understood the mods' decision. They could have kept an eye out for shit-stirring and future trouble. Instead, she "rejoined" in an underhanded way.
posted by drezdn at 6:42 AM on March 12, 2008

Finally, I wouldn't be surprised if she had other accounts here.
posted by drezdn at 6:48 AM on March 12, 2008

Well, actually that particular comment was a bit facetious....sorry.

Well, konolia, if you want to be taken seriously, maybe you shouldn't be facetious.
posted by languagehat at 6:53 AM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

treat her like YOU would like to be treated, folks.

To respond to this request in the context in which it may arise: I don't think the Golden Rule should ever be used as a blanket policy for aiding people in people avoiding personal accountability. It's possible to treat someone the way you'd like to be treated if you had duped, defrauded and abused the trust of a community - in other words, firmly and calmly but with no acceptance of their actions and with careful consideration of whether their continued participation is an acceptable outcome. Forgiveness is not the same thing as preventing appropriate consequences.

Even the Golden Rule's most famous proponent indicates that feeling bad about what you did isn't the grounds for forgiveness, nor is it permission to keep running the same scams or indulging in the same bad behavior. un owen was told "Go, and sin no more [at least to us here]," and apparently ignored the request by setting up another identity. It is possible to forgive a person, yet at the same time deplore and reject her actions.

I have a really hard time with the idea that this user fradulently took money from MeFites and has, apparently, used it to make her life better (as the litany of recent successes shows). It seems to me that a fair stipulation on any use of the account she has now would be to begin a plan of making restitution to the people who generously gave to what they thought was an important cause. That would go a long way to restoring some of the trust people generally feel in the community, which could make things a lot better in future for all of us who could at any moment find ourselves in a true crisis and wsh to seek support, financial and otherwise, from relationships built here. Trust is high on MetaFilter. Creating a payment schedule, posting it, and beginning to refund the donations user by user would go a long way toward convincing me of a good-faith effort to change, and a long way toward improving the community's sense of mutual trust and willingness to give to worthy causes.
posted by Miko at 7:05 AM on March 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Oops, meant to link the "Go, and sin no more" story
posted by Miko at 7:06 AM on March 12, 2008

konolia said: "I think she deserves a chance to redeem herself.... Remember, it's really pretty easy to get one's internet rep trashed whether or not it's deserved...treat her like YOU would like to be treated, folks. ...in the ministry I am training in... if I err I would rather err on the side of belief rather than disbelief (Unless money or safety is involved and then I do tend to try to behave with due diligence.)"

One, I think we can safely say that money is in fact involved here, so there's that.

Two, no, in fact it's not that easy to get one's internet rep trashed whether or not it's deserved. Thousands, millions? of people interact with others on the internet every single day and do not manage to create one-tenth the level of ire and outrage that this person did. She really had to work for it. It's disingenuous to try and minimize her inflammatory history at this and other sites by implying that it happens all the time and that she didn't really deserve it.

Three: with all respect due, konolia, your position is clearly one of a person of a certain level and flavor of religious faith. In that case, the Golden Rule and granting the benefit of the doubt, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that a person hasn't changed or still intends to do bad things or what-have-you, are surely the best courses of action... for you. Or someone who prescribes to your brand of religion.

But while it might be what works for you, it's not going to work for everyone, because we don't all operate on the same belief system. Explaining that this is what you have chosen to do and why is one thing, but you're not going to catch many flies here by suggesting that All Good People would forgive and forget and let bygones be bygones.

Lastly, as drezdn basically just pointed out, this person has always had the Brand New Day option. Always. Anyone can rejoin MeFi under a new name, and even a new IP if they want to go far. All they have to do is get here and act right. That IB/UN hasn't been willing or able to do so says more about her than it does about MetaFilter.

Postscript: my gut tells me that the age thing is a lie. I don't believe she was 20 then or is 24 now. I haven't combed the histories, mostly because most of the sites where she was active are offensive to me, usually from a design perspective, so I can't be arsed. But as far as I can tell, we don't know anything to be legitimate or factual about this person, and therefore clinging to the plank of "well, she was so young and stupid then, people can mature" seems irrational to me. (Though, if anyone can demonstrate a place where her age was "proved" to some sort of standard that holds up to common sense, I'll retract.)

Post-post-script: This is totally a Historical Thread, Best of MetaTalk. We start by trying to suss out sansgras, who doesn't pass the sniff test because of the previous antics of posters like u.n. owen and internet scammers like Kaycee Nicole... and then, as if summoned like Beatlejuice, it is revealed that "u.n. owen" has been posing as another user and has been secretly walking amongst us for years.

Most importantly: it is a microcosmic proof, to me, that even though I have grown "too old for this shit" in my decade online, and despite my belief that I have carefully selected internet spaces to spend time where Teh DRaMa!!!¡¡ doesn't live... that it will always live, no matter the space, because there will always be people who cannot resist the siren song of trying to be important or win cred among a bunch of faceless strangers by lying and asking for attention. Not even MetaFilter is safe.

So there's my afterschool-special-style Moral Takeaway.
posted by pineapple at 7:20 AM on March 12, 2008 [14 favorites]

So who all is going to the wrap party?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:30 AM on March 12, 2008

Excellent comment, pineapple. Wow.
posted by orange swan at 7:34 AM on March 12, 2008

Oooh! Pick me!

Excellent comment, pineapple. I hope if IB is following this thread zealously as many of us believe she is, she'll get the point that actions, not time, heal all wounds.
posted by Phire at 7:34 AM on March 12, 2008

Being laid up with flu for a few days has me following this more closely than regular day to day activities would allow, so after reading IB's recent posting history, I got to say, ick.
Is she a phone sex worker? Did a "client" buy her a new sex toy?

I would like to think that people here are trying to communicate something, to connect with others, and also make me laugh. (I gotta say that whole nazi frogmen thing, pure genius)
I don't like too many postings thrown in just for the sake of someone's personal drama.

Now imagine I have a world-weary voice (post flu Suzanne Pleshette-esque voice, in fact), and I say, yes I have done things that I am not proud of, have had to reavaluate things, make changes, apologize. So I have some sympathy for someone going through it - but I'm just not feeling it in this case.
posted by readery at 7:41 AM on March 12, 2008

"HEY THERE'S FROZEN BURRITOS IF YOU WANT!" Then in our profiles we can all include a touching story about how un owen touched each of our lives, our burritos, and our valuables

i have Skot's burrito. in my pants.
posted by quonsar at 7:46 AM on March 12, 2008

summoned like Beatlejuice

dhoyt, dhoyt, dhoyt!!!!
posted by mygothlaundry at 7:46 AM on March 12, 2008

Amen taz. Stupid should hurt, my own stupidity even more so.
posted by Skorgu at 7:54 AM on March 12, 2008

This thread has everything: epic highs! Wallow-in-filth lows! A denouement or two, and of course, the opportunity to help Nickyskye, whose struggles I myself relate to (having had a baby sister with thyroid cancer at 19, girl, you have my sympathy and soon to be some money/gifts).

I dub thee, legendary thread.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 8:18 AM on March 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Sockpuppetry and identity shenanigans really are a scourge on Metafilter, and the sooner we crack the nut and come up with a way to prevent it, we will replay this passion play every few months. But, judging by the glee some of you show for this sort of stuff, I expect that solving the problem will have social impediments, too.
posted by Dave Faris at 8:33 AM on March 12, 2008

I'm always amazed how visceral the reaction to konolia entering a thread can be here.

konolia: I like beets.

fifty commenters: Well, YOU WOULD SAY THAT WOULDN'T YOU YOU FILTHY RELIGIOUS TYPE! YOUR SAVIOR WAS A HAMSTER AND HIS MOTHER SMELT OF ELDERBERRIES!

konolia: I'm just saying that beets are delicious and I'm happy Jesus made them.

fifty commenters: BEETS ARE EEVL YOU BIGOT

konolia: Well, I stand behind that comment because it's in the Bible.

miko: Let me interject here a thoughtful, decent-and-in-order comment rebuking konolia for suggesting that beets are even in the Bible, because they're not, and anyway, while I appreciate that you like beets, you can't assume the rest of the world does. [134 favorites +]

fifty commenters: YEAH YOU SHOW HER BEETS IS EEVL LET'S KICK HER OUT FOR LIKING BEETS AND BEING A BIGOT BUT MAINLY FOR LIKING BEETS

jessamyn: Look, folks, been there, done that, can we all move on?

fifty commenters: AAAAAH NO FAIR

cortex: Honestly guys. Chill and have a delicious beet-flavored doughnut.

fifty commenters: MMM YOU KNOW BEETS REALLY ARE DELICIOUS! CURSES! FOILED AGAIN!

konolia: And they're the color of Jesus' blood that he shed on the cross.

fifty commenters: YEARRRRRGHH!!!!!
posted by dw at 8:34 AM on March 12, 2008 [55 favorites]

This thread has everything: epic highs! Wallow-in-filth lows! A denouement or two, and of course, the opportunity to help Nickyskye

It even already has that graphic you linked to.
posted by OmieWise at 8:35 AM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

dw said: "I'm always amazed how visceral the reaction to konolia entering a thread can be here."

I wouldn't say this one has been visceral... nor would I say that it's merely entering a thread that causes the reaction. Seems to be the entering a thread and prescribing or proscribing behavior based on her personal religious beliefs, which ends up generating all the response.

Still, funny summary though.
posted by pineapple at 8:49 AM on March 12, 2008

Let me interject here a thoughtful, decent-and-in-order comment

Man, one day I need to just go apeshit. No telling when.
posted by Miko at 8:51 AM on March 12, 2008 [18 favorites]

the sooner we crack the nut and come up with a way to prevent it, we will replay this passion play every few months.

We know who most of the sock puppets are (we think) and most of the time the problems stem from something else that just has sock puppetry as a side issue. With sansgras, for example, the issue isn't sock puppetry but general community distrust. With the u.n. owen thing, the problem has more to do with intentional deception and misuse of community resources. We have a policy on sock puppetry that works well most of the time. We also allow users to be pretty anonymous. I think the anonymity issue is generally more the problem than sock puppetry, though I don't think it's enough of a scourge that it needs to change the way we do things here. Seriously, do you have a suggestion along these lines?

Many of the big freakouts in Meta over the last maybe six months have had nothing to do with sock puppetry or identity stuff at all.
posted by jessamyn at 8:51 AM on March 12, 2008

Seems to be the entering a thread and prescribing or proscribing behavior based on her personal religious beliefs

She did not say, I feel this way because of my personal religious belief. She simply gave her opinion on the subject of this thread. Nothing she said was off-topic, it was the responses that brought in all the other baggage. Some of you really need to let go.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:53 AM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: I need to just go apeshit.
posted by Skot at 8:55 AM on March 12, 2008

Seems to be the entering a thread and prescribing or proscribing behavior based on her personal religious beliefs, which ends up generating all the response.

but of course, if she entered a thread prescribing or proscribing behavior based on a personal preference for lesbian sado-masochistic scatology, the response would be overwhelmingly favorable.

i like beets.
posted by quonsar at 8:59 AM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

She simply gave her opinion on the subject of this thread. Nothing she said was off-topic, it was the responses that brought in all the other baggage.

While I agree that there was nothing overtly religious about her comments, her tone was one of righteous reasonableness, but she was being entirely unreasonable in her interpretation of u.n. owen's actions here. The kind of misreading she made is strange, unless one reasonably attributes to konolia a desire to express her personal morals and convictions through her stance re. u.n. owen, in which case it makes much more sense.
posted by OmieWise at 9:01 AM on March 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

We know who most of the sock puppets are

Not if we have a double agent feeding you bad ~~doughnuts~~ info.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:10 AM on March 12, 2008

Beets suck.

Turnips rule.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:15 AM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Few expected during that initial discussion that the Great Beet Wars of 2010 would leave over 1.6 billion dead and over a third of the world's land mass uninhabitable by either beet or man...
posted by Krrrlson at 9:16 AM on March 12, 2008 [4 favorites]

That's not the only comment I'm talking about.

She did not say, I feel this way because of my personal religious belief. She simply gave her opinion on the subject of this thread. Nothing she said was off-topic, it was the responses that brought in all the other baggage. Some of you really need to let go.

Nor did I say that's what she did here, if you'll review my comment responding to dw. Although I don't agree that "you people amaze me," which smacks of pious judgment, is "simply giving her opinion."

Nor did I ever imply that she was off-topic -- although, it doesn't take much of a leap to suggest that if one wants to say "in my ministry we do things like this so at MetaFilter I act like this," it is basically stating "I feel/behave this way because of my personal religious belief."

dw appeared to be speaking in general, and I responded in general; I stand by my comment that "the entering a thread and prescribing or proscribing behavior based on [konolia's] personal religious beliefs [is what] ends up generating all the response." In general. Wish and hope for it to be so but this particular thread doesn't exist in a vacuum.

konolia clearly loves to reference her faith and belief; fair play to her, etc. etc. What I don't get is the perspective that reads to me as "...and no one can have an opinion or feeling about her tendency to do that." I'd also argue that if one is a person who wants to flaunt one's ministry at MetaFilter even despite a long and colorful posting history filled with people not appreciating your style of religious proselytizing, actually that's how the baggage gets brought into the thread.
posted by pineapple at 9:20 AM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

fifty commenters: YEARRRRRGHH!!!!!

Questions of accuracy aside, I have to admit that I'm always pretty entertained by thread recaps.
posted by cortex at 9:23 AM on March 12, 2008

Nothing she said was off-topic

So? It's not immune from criticism either, which you seem to be suggesting everything she says should be. Just because konolia has been unfairly vilified for her religion does not make her a MetaFilter Saint whose every word should be accepted in grateful silence. She has a right to state her opinion that we should all give u.n.owen a break, and we have a right to state our opinion that she's full of shit (for reasons entirely unrelated to her religious beliefs).
posted by languagehat at 9:30 AM on March 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Seriously, do you have a suggestion along these lines?

Seriously, he just likes being a grump.
posted by languagehat at 9:30 AM on March 12, 2008

a little religious proselytizing provides a nice balance in the midst of a tsunami of secular proselytizing.
posted by quonsar at 9:31 AM on March 12, 2008

I'd like my religious proselytizing to come with a side of pickled beets, please.

mmmmm.....beeeeeeeeets.
posted by rtha at 9:34 AM on March 12, 2008

When life hands you beets, you make borscht.
posted by Krrrlson at 9:35 AM on March 12, 2008

do you have a suggestion along these lines?

No. Like I said, it's a nut that needs cracking, but you would know better than I that there's no foolproof method of preventing it. UN Owen, for example, would have skirted a rule about one u.i.d, one paypal account. And tracking IPs is only but so practical these days with mobile computing. I'm at as much of a loss as to how to deal with it as you are. I guess I would start by banning all the sockpuppets you know about, since no one has come up with a reasonable use for them besides the rare askme that is too embarrassing even for an anonymous submission. But I also realize I'm an extremist about the issue.
posted by Dave Faris at 9:54 AM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

While I agree that there was nothing overtly religious about her comments, her tone was one of righteous reasonableness but she was being entirely unreasonable in her interpretation of u.n. owen's actions here.
I think that's overstating it- I've read the comment several times (that's the one we're talking about, right?) and it reads as a reasonable opinion on the subject to me, though one easy to disagree with.

Yeah, I'm going to have to say that as a person with no konolia/bunnyfire related baggage, her comment doesn't seem to be much more than a reasonable call for compassion and the suggestion that four years might have changed something in a person.

Except the first line.

The first line ("You people amaze me.") is pretty much a personal attack on the posters to this thread.

I believe I can reasonably expand the statement to: "The opinions that are being expressed in this thread are so far out of line with my expectations that I am amazed. Furthermore, I am not just amazed by the opinions expressed, but by the very nature of the people who could express those opinions." This is the kind of stuff that gets people in a huff.

I'm guessing that what konolia meant was "Some of the opinions being expressed here amaze me." That's nice and specific, doesn't lump every poster in the thread into the same bucket, and keeps the focus on the opinions instead of the people. But the very fact that I read it that way is why konolia's "tone" has never particularly bothered me.

And in truth, I suspect the fact that other readers can't get past konolia's tone has a lot more to do with their personal history with her than any real outrage at the way she expresses herself. I suspect that even if she were to be more specific and less personal there would still be a certain percentage of people here calling her out on everything she wrote.
posted by tkolar at 9:56 AM on March 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

And thanks for that dismissive interjection, Languagehat. It's comments like that that make metafilter so great.
posted by Dave Faris at 9:57 AM on March 12, 2008

How much more human suffering will it take until we realize that only a professional-looking white background to this website will make these problems go away.
posted by chinston at 10:02 AM on March 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

And does anyone want the olive from my martini? Horrible things.

Try a Gibson.

And can I just say that it was a MeFite who brought me around to beets? I'd always hated the damned things, from years of vile holiday dinners where they were served, but Mandyman roasted 'em with a little olive oil and some herbs and they were amazingly delicious.

So I guess Mandyman shouldn't be banned.
posted by klangklangston at 10:02 AM on March 12, 2008

I guess I would start by banning all the sockpuppets you know about, since no one has come up with a reasonable use for them

Have you not met Kettle or Pot? I'm always happy to see them make an appearance.
posted by quin at 10:07 AM on March 12, 2008

I suspect the fact that other readers can't get past konolia's tone has a lot more to do with their personal history with her than any real outrage at the way she expresses herself. I suspect that even if she were to be more specific and less personal there would still be a certain percentage of people here calling her out on everything she wrote.

While this wasn't directed specifically to me, I would like to address it in the terms of the parts of my comments that were directed at konolia.

I wasn't around for bunnyfire. What I know about all of it is from a historical perspective is the stuff that gets referenced ex post facto, like in this MeTa.

What I didn't like about her tone was the suggestion that she knows best for us all. In several places, in this comment, we are outright told how to act, presumably because she has inside information and has a better handle on what is the right way to behave with compassion.

That's not offensive to me because konolia's religious, but because I think it's rude to suggest that any one person knows what's best for all of MeFi. It's even more irritating when it's coming from someone who has been discouraged in the past from posting comments where she declares herself right and true no matter what.

I tried to be very gentle in my "we don't all feel the way that you do" response to her, and maybe my mistake was in framing that within a "your perspective is probably informed by your religion" note. But I do not see what I wrote at all as outrage, my personal baggage with her, or me calling her out unreasonably. I realize others might not see what I see, though.

But it's fairly important to me to point out that I don't care if she worships a god made of beets and guano, and celebrates annually at the Guano Beet God Festival and wants to share her juicy, guano-y testimony with you. I just don't like being finger-wagged and scolded, as if we're all kindergarteners who can't play nice.
posted by pineapple at 10:17 AM on March 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

MetaFilter: Wants to share her juicy, guano-y testimony with you.
posted by Mister_A at 10:27 AM on March 12, 2008

Also, is there any sort of guano that is not of batly origin? Weirdos want to know.
posted by Mister_A at 10:28 AM on March 12, 2008

I just don't like being finger-wagged and scolded, as if we're all kindergarteners who can't play nice.

awwwww! mommy will hug and make it all better.
posted by quonsar at 10:34 AM on March 12, 2008

There's a soy-based substitute you can get called "Guan-Nope". They sell it a Whole Foods. It's not bad, but 1:1 replacement in recipes hasn't worked out great for me so far.
posted by cortex at 10:34 AM on March 12, 2008 [6 favorites]

Encyclopedia Britannica says that seabirds and seals also make it.
posted by Dave Faris at 10:36 AM on March 12, 2008

Man, this thread just keeps on giving...
posted by goo at 10:39 AM on March 12, 2008

Guano (from the Quechua 'wanu', via Spanish) is the droppings of seabirds, bats, and seals.
posted by Partial Law at 10:45 AM on March 12, 2008

Boobys and Cormorants
posted by adamvasco at 10:46 AM on March 12, 2008

*doffs hat* to Partial Law.
posted by adamvasco at 10:48 AM on March 12, 2008

And thanks for that dismissive interjection, Languagehat.

Not dismissive, just descriptive. You clearly do enjoy being a grump, otherwise you wouldn't do it so constantly.

It's comments like that that make metafilter so great.

Read up on glass houses sometime.
posted by languagehat at 11:19 AM on March 12, 2008

if she entered a thread prescribing or proscribing behavior based on a personal preference for lesbian sado-masochistic scatology

I wouldn't be offended by two konolias, one cup.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 11:23 AM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

precisely my point.
posted by quonsar at 11:59 AM on March 12, 2008

Not dismissive, just descriptive. You clearly do enjoy being a grump, otherwise you wouldn't do it so constantly.

So, site your sources, mister. Look at my posting history. Demonstrate "constantly."
posted by Dave Faris at 12:05 PM on March 12, 2008

So, site your sources, mister. Look at my posting history.

Exactly so. Your posting history is the site of his sources.

And yeah, you do the drive by grump thing a lot.
posted by tkolar at 12:06 PM on March 12, 2008

Hey Dave! Thanks for the great guano 411. Also thanks to the rest of ye. It's too bad that this thread will never reach the arbitrary milestone of 600 comments, though.
posted by Mister_A at 12:35 PM on March 12, 2008

Is that because you're a quitter, Mister_A?
posted by pineapple at 12:41 PM on March 12, 2008

(Can't believe that worked. I never get the milestone-comment-number.)
posted by pineapple at 12:41 PM on March 12, 2008

Woot woot woot! 600 comments!! Pineapple, you've won an array of harp seal, vampire bat, seagull, and booby guano!
posted by Mister_A at 12:47 PM on March 12, 2008

Thank y'all, thank you so much! I personally believe, that U.S. Americans, are unable to do so, because uh, some, people out there, in our nation don’t have maps... and uh… I believe that our education, like such as in South Africa, and the Iraq, everywhere like such as… and, I believe they should uh, our education over here, in the U.S. should help the U.S. or should help South Africa, and should help the Iraq and Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future. For us.
posted by pineapple at 1:05 PM on March 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Oh, and pineapple?

I HATE beets.
posted by konolia at 1:17 PM on March 12, 2008

Oh, there you go, making value judgments and oppressing everyone with them. You beetamentalists just want to come in our kitchens and tell us what vegetables we can and can't eat.
posted by dw at 1:28 PM on March 12, 2008

And I bet YOU are a cilantro eater! Heathen.
posted by konolia at 1:32 PM on March 12, 2008

You people amaze me.

True, people do strange things. Like complaining about the community and leaving in a huff only to return a week later.
posted by Dennis Murphy at 1:34 PM on March 12, 2008

*Looks forlornly at beet and bean terrine with cilantro, weeps.*
posted by Mister_A at 1:37 PM on March 12, 2008

This thread will only be complete when someone leaves in a big huff. Who will it be?
posted by cior at 1:41 PM on March 12, 2008

I hate people who diss cilantro. I don't know why everyone hates it. All you people who think it tastes like soap are genetically defect. Cilantroooooooooooo!

(was that huffy enough? I can pretend to leave.)
posted by Phire at 1:43 PM on March 12, 2008

Screw you guys, I'm outta here!
posted by grouse at 1:44 PM on March 12, 2008

OK, I'm back.
posted by grouse at 1:44 PM on March 12, 2008

The gas mileage on the huff was terrible. These days I leave in a Snit.
posted by Miko at 1:46 PM on March 12, 2008 [12 favorites]

*Looks forlornly at beet and bean terrine with cilantro, weeps.*

Um, you gonna eat that? I'll swap you this plate of beans.
posted by rtha at 1:46 PM on March 12, 2008

The highlight of this thread for me? Learning of Klangklangston's Stabbing Westward fandom.*

*I'll cop to liking their "hits."
posted by drezdn at 1:46 PM on March 12, 2008

I could give a fig about cilantro preferences, but I'm pretty fucking tired of all this anti-soap rhetoric. If you don't like it, don't eat it, but some of us like a little hygeine with our food. Meddling jerk-ass [SOAPIST]s.
posted by cortex at 1:54 PM on March 12, 2008

Some of my perceived finger-wagging tone probably comes from the fact I raised three children to adulthood and am a grandma to boot. So, the finger, sometimes it wags automatically. It's a mom thing, people.

It's funny. My mom doesn't go on the internet and constantly tell people how outraged she is and how ashamed of themselves they should be. Are you sure it's not a you thing? Because I'm pretty sure it's a you thing. Have you given any serious thought to NOT doing it? Because it really doesn't seem like it.

Carry on.

The entire time I was reading your comment I kept thinking "oh! konolia's going to apologize for her judgemental tone! what a relief! and then you didn't, which is also relieving in its own way since I don't like surprises.
posted by shmegegge at 1:54 PM on March 12, 2008 [5 favorites]

I thought people were being a bit too rough and mean in regarts to UN Owen. Why should I apologize for that opinion? It might be a wrong opinion, but it's mine, and I'm rather fond of it.
posted by konolia at 2:14 PM on March 12, 2008

You know, I really have to agree with the point that, while konolia's phrasing was a bit "I have all the answers, kids", it surely got made into a much bigger thing than it would have been had it been posted by someone else.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:16 PM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hitler's moustache! This has been an action-packed couple of episodes for Metatalk. What starts out as a creepy voyage into the world of pro-ana ends up unmasking the secret identity of a longtime Metafilter contributor! She would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for those meddling kids. And not only that, but in another recent episode, we discover that airntz has been making the calls from inside the house in the form of princeofpersiatz! (Seriously, I had just done a google search for airntz the other day to find out if any closure had ever happened there.)

I picked the right day to start sniffing glue, that's for sure.
posted by UKnowForKids at 2:19 PM on March 12, 2008

I thought people were being a bit too rough and mean in regarts to UN Owen. Why should I apologize for that opinion?

Honestly, the opinion isn't really the problem, though I understand that you need to keep framing the issue that way in order to allow you to sidestep any meaningful self-reflection in the matter. It's more the incessant self-righteousness that evidently knows no bounds, coupled with the smug holier-than-thou tone that I suspect folks take exception to, especially given that your posting history illustrates that your "do unto others" credo has its certain glaring limits.

But do carry on pretending that you're being victimized for your beliefs.
posted by scody at 2:25 PM on March 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

it surely got made into a much bigger thing than it would have been had it been posted by someone else.

That's true, but it's, er, a cross she has to bear. If you're going to spend a significant amount of time pissing people off with ex cathedra judgments, you have to take the consequences.
posted by languagehat at 2:27 PM on March 12, 2008

Why should I apologize for that opinion? It might be a wrong opinion, but it's mine, and I'm rather fond of it.
posted by konolia 10 minutes ago

I never said you should apologize for your opinion. But, in truth, you're not going to apologize for anything regardless of how much I explain myself, so it's a moot point. good luck with the finger wagging. be sure to let us know if any of us are your children or grandkids so we can start paying attention to what you think about things.
posted by shmegegge at 2:33 PM on March 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

especially given that your posting history illustrates that your "do unto others" credo has its certain glaring limits.

Well, U.N. Owen is probably straight, so there's a clear difference there.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:39 PM on March 12, 2008

That's true, but it's, er, a cross she has to bear. If you're going to spend a significant amount of time pissing people off with ex cathedra judgments, you have to take the consequences.

A fair point. Speaking for no one but myself, I guess I just don't see this particular comment as egregious as some others apparently do. Maybe I'm just missing something, but take that as you will. Likewise with Jessamyn's reaction to what, to me, was obviously a light and silly "how do I know any of you are real?"
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:40 PM on March 12, 2008

So, the finger, sometimes it wags automatically. It's a mom thing, people.

shmegegge has already run with this quote elegantly - but is it possible, konolia, that you're just missing the message?

Some of us indulge the "mom thing" when it's our moms doing the "mom thing".

Otherwise we generally prefer to at least aim for a more grown up relationship thing.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 2:45 PM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

"The highlight of this thread for me? Learning of Klangklangston's Stabbing Westward fandom.*

*I'll cop to liking their "hits." "

The drum sound on the first album (Ungod) is really nice, and when I was in high school, I didn't realize how inane the lyrics were. I mean, "I think I woke up screaming/ I had a dream that I still loved you"? And then as time went on, I got to go through the phases where they got popular and I was annoyed at all the new folks who were only into them because they thought that the members were hot, or whatever, and then their follow-up (Darkest Days), which had a couple good songs and a lot of sub-NIN mopery, and then reading up on the backstory and being like, man, this whole album's about the breakup of one relationship? I can totally understand why she dumped his whiny ass. (Technically, that's an observation that a friend of mine made, but I've appropriated it because as soon as he said it, it was clear that it was a platonic truth he had grasped).

And then slowly realizing that not only had that album been kinda crappy on the whole, but that all of their prior albums were kinda shallow and crappy, and that most industrial music was kinda shallow and crappy. Then Stabbing Westward put out one more album, which my brother bought me for Christmas and it was so amazingly terrible that hearing it only heightened my guilt over giving it a luke-warm reception when I unwrapped it in front of him.

But yeah, from about 14-years-old to about 19-years-old, I loved that band and met all sorts of people from all over the country through their mailing lists and message boards. Thank God that the other band that I had a similar message-board-and-mailing-list fanaticism about was Nirvana, who, while not what I'd listen to all the time, at least aren't as totally embarrassing. The only thing that SW has going for them on that front is that they're not well-remembered and that I can still look down on people who were fans of Sister Machine Gun.

Christ, I remember deriding Gravity Kills as a Stabbing Westward rip-off band.
posted by klangklangston at 3:07 PM on March 12, 2008

Look upon my recipe, and despair.
posted by CKmtl at 3:10 PM on March 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

Despair is right. I just threw up in your mouth, a little.
posted by pineapple at 3:15 PM on March 12, 2008

i am so going to eat a tasty hamburger today, with beets on it, naturally.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:16 PM on March 12, 2008

What I have learned today:

1. That sometimes, people do NOT pick up on things said with a sense of humor.
2. That if someone somewhere has an opinion different from one, then, by jingo, SOMEONE must be judgmental!
3. That if I respond conversationally to a comment, oh, my goodness, I must have felt attacked!!!!!!! Or victimized!!!!! Oh NOES!

And somewhere, in the vast hollows and caverns of the Internets, a plate of beans is being overthought.

Too bad images have been disabled, this would be a perfect time for some cat macros. Anybody want a cheeseburger? Or a bukkit?
posted by konolia at 3:34 PM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Look upon my recipe, and despair.
posted by CKmtl at 6:10 PM on March 12 [1 favorite +] [!]

Now THAT?

Is EVIL.
posted by konolia at 3:35 PM on March 12, 2008

What I have learned today:

posted by konolia at 6:34 PM on March 12
posted by shmegegge at 3:41 PM on March 12, 2008 [5 favorites]

Look upon my recipe, and despair.

Oh my god, that sounds fantastic.

After I graduated from college, I moved to Northampton MA, and couldn't get a job. Ended up working in dining services at Smith College, where every house (aka dorm) has its own kitchen and dining room. The cook for the house I worked in made the most delicious pickled beets I have ever had. I hadn't been a fan of sweet pickled anything until that point, but the first time she broke out a jar of her homemade pickled beets, I was an instant convert.

If there is a god, I would like to thank hir for beets. (Other stuff, too, but that'd be a really long list, and I'd leave something off, and you guys would yell at me, and then I might get in my Snit and drive away.)
posted by rtha at 3:58 PM on March 12, 2008

In his house at R'lyeh beety Cthulhu waits dreaming.

I don't mind beets, but those are abominations.
posted by CKmtl at 4:00 PM on March 12, 2008

roast beets + tangerine + onions + arugula + balsamic viniagrette = yum
posted by small_ruminant at 4:10 PM on March 12, 2008

konolia said: "What I have learned today:

1. That sometimes, people do NOT pick up on things said with a sense of humor.
2. That if someone somewhere has an opinion different from one, then, by jingo, SOMEONE must be judgmental!
3. That if I respond conversationally to a comment, oh, my goodness, I must have felt attacked!!!!!!! Or victimized!!!!! Oh NOES! "

But this one, I totally did pick up on the humor. This was hilarious! Comedy Gold!
posted by pineapple at 4:13 PM on March 12, 2008

Has the thread been rickrolled yet?

Seriously, when is this going to end? What is the purpose? What are we all here waiting for?
posted by cior at 5:14 PM on March 12, 2008

Seriously, when is this going to end? What is the purpose? What are we all here waiting for?

Dude, remember that thread where we thought sansgras might be some kind of kaycee nicole - like fiction? That was awesome. Whatever happened with that thread?
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 5:17 PM on March 12, 2008

Ended up working in dining services at Smith College

Five College food service workers REPRESENT. [I worked at Hampshire's]

Likewise with Jessamyn's reaction to what, to me, was obviously a light and silly "how do I know any of you are real?"

Remember please, I am the humorless mod.
posted by jessamyn at 5:32 PM on March 12, 2008

Five College food service workers REPRESENT. [I worked at Hampshire's]

Me too! SAGA.
posted by OmieWise at 5:34 PM on March 12, 2008

Hey, I visited Hampshire often for parties and debauchery. And I do have to say, opening the food hall to serve tater tots at 3am during the Halloween party, while it must suck for the people working there, was much appreciated by me and my friends visiting from our lame college in PA.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:47 PM on March 12, 2008

Remember please, I am the humorless mod.

I once saw Jessamyn straight-face Buster Keaton through a plateglass window.
posted by cortex at 6:05 PM on March 12, 2008 [4 favorites]

I washed dishes at UMass Amherst!
posted by Evangeline at 6:28 PM on March 12, 2008

*High-fives jessamyn and OmieWise*

I actually really liked working at Smith. I liked my co-workers a lot, the students were a huge source of entertainment and enjoyment, and I got two excellent meals a day. And I loved living in Northampton.
posted by rtha at 6:29 PM on March 12, 2008

Oh, hey!

*High-fives Evangeline*
posted by rtha at 6:38 PM on March 12, 2008

Hey, rtha, what house?
posted by LobsterMitten at 6:46 PM on March 12, 2008

I washed dishes at UMass Amherst!

Uh mah gah, me too!
posted by tristeza at 7:10 PM on March 12, 2008

Oh this is weird. I lived in Greenough. I was only there for one semester (quarter?) my junior year. I went there on the National Student Exchange program. You pay in-state tuition at your home school (University of Alabama for me) and spend one semester or one year at an out-of-state college. This must have been 1988.

There was a conveyor belt, and my job was to separate out the glasses and put them in racks. Sometimes we'd get so overwhelmed we'd just start tossing dishes onto the floor. The water would be up to our ankles by the time the shift was over!
posted by Evangeline at 7:16 PM on March 12, 2008

LobsterMitten: Northrop, '89-90ish.
posted by rtha at 7:22 PM on March 12, 2008

So what, now this thread is turning into an episode of Lost?

Oh my god, we're all minor characters from each other's pasts!
posted by tkolar at 7:49 PM on March 12, 2008

Come to think of it we've had con games, mistaken identities, Good and Bad people, nicknames, parent issues, redemption, sacrifice, and plenty of secrets to go around.

This thread *is* an episode of Lost. All we need to do is work some references to the numbers in and we can submit it as a script for next season.
posted by tkolar at 7:55 PM on March 12, 2008

Whatever happened with that thread?

The locals say they're all still in there... and sometimes, late at night, you can still hear their voices.

OOOOOOOOooooooooooooo
posted by juliplease at 8:35 PM on March 12, 2008

Thanks for the recipe CKmtl.
posted by arse_hat at 9:22 PM on March 12, 2008

Oh my god, we're all minor characters from each other's pasts!

It's true. The totally awesome Slack-a-gogo was my ex-husband's best man at our wedding.
posted by scody at 9:26 PM on March 12, 2008

rtha: mmm, warm fuzzies.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:35 PM on March 12, 2008

Turns out I'm sleeping with the wife of one of the guys who runs this joint.
posted by cortex at 9:40 PM on March 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

cortex, you dog!
posted by scody at 9:44 PM on March 12, 2008

Wait, Jessamyn is a man? And s/he has a wife?
posted by tkolar at 9:45 PM on March 12, 2008

I washed dishes at Williams, down the road.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 9:52 PM on March 12, 2008

Wait, Jessamyn is a man? And s/he has a wife?

No to both, but I would be willing to entertain offers on the second part there.
posted by jessamyn at 9:54 PM on March 12, 2008

As of right now, this thread appears twice in my "recent activity", both right after Joseph Gurl's comment. It will gradually grow to take over the whole mefi experience... it's like the night the stars went out.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:00 PM on March 12, 2008

Ok, it went away.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:06 PM on March 12, 2008

#666! HAIL SATAN!
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 11:01 PM on March 12, 2008

A mefi-related small-world story: I've recently gotten to know a local mefite, who: used to work with one of my best friends; went to the same college (a year apart) as my sweetheart; and was once married to someone I knew in high school.

I was at a meetup a month or so ago talking to this MeFite over some beer, and it was only after like an hour or two of talking about random crap that we figured out that we went to the same college 10 years apart. And she was responsible for hijinks that were well-established college history by the time I got there.
posted by jewishbuddha at 11:55 PM on March 12, 2008

I would be willing to entertain offers on the second part there.

Ok, I just put up a craiglist ad for ya, let us know how it goes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:27 AM on March 13, 2008

Jess, if you - in your infinite librarian wisdom - can help me out with this quandry, I will get down on bended knee. <3>

also, look: ROSES.

..................................
......... , . - . - , _ , .......
......... ) ` - . .~ ' `( .......
........ / . . . .`\ . . \ ........
........ |. . . . . |. . .| ........
......... \ . . . ./ . ./ .........
........... `=(\ /.=` .........
............. `-;`.-' ............
............... `)| ... , ........
................ || _.-'| ........
............. ,_|| \_,/ ........
....... , ..... \|| .' .............
....... |\ |\ ,. ||/ .............
.... ,..\` | /|.,|Y\, ............
..... '-...'-._..\||/ .............
......... >_.-`Y| ..............
.............. ,_|| ...............
................ \|| ...........
................. || ..........
................. || ...........
................. |/ .........

posted by numinous at 7:48 AM on March 13, 2008

numinous: no idea. I find citation nitpickery to be the height of prescriptive nonsense. I understand that there are times people have to do it, but it's not something I know anything about and I'd be looking it up when I got to the library (or Google) same as you.
posted by jessamyn at 8:08 AM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

shorter numinous: HOPE ME @>--'--.-`---
posted by cortex at 8:11 AM on March 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

Lollerz all round. And numinous, with an unusual or irregular cite, I'd just make sure that it's clear what the source is, is all.
posted by Mister_A at 8:20 AM on March 13, 2008

But I require perfectionnnnnnnnnn! Actually, I need this for an immediate citation, but also because my current research (and hopefully my thesis!) is couched in the examination of religious/economic intersection, so this will undoubtedly be coming up again.

BRB INTELLECTUALLY AMBUSHING CAMPUS EDITORS.

also: that is some great editing, cortex. can you help me?
posted by numinous at 8:38 AM on March 13, 2008

tkolar: "Oh my god, we're all minor characters from each other's pasts!"

Indeed! The Bellman and I went to the same high school, but not at the same time. He was (and is) good friends with a girl I also was (and am) good friends with. Do you know how hard it was to figure that out? Answer: not very. Anyway, it would be cool if there was a list of everyone's real names somewhere -- for people who use their names in their profiles, that is, nothing privacy-invading. And if you were in a Facebooky, social app-y mood, you could skim through it and see if there was anyone you recognized. And then you'd... um... say "Hi," I guess.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:03 AM on March 13, 2008

Do you know how hard it was to figure that out? Answer: not very.

Good point. If this was actually an episode of Lost it would have taken three seasons, two pregnancies, and at least one violation of the laws of physics to sort that out.
posted by tkolar at 9:14 AM on March 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

Of people that I didn't convince to join the site, one mefi member worked on the same really small student newspaper as me, other than that I haven't run into anyone else I knew in meatbombspace.
posted by drezdn at 9:15 AM on March 13, 2008

Come on, people, we're not going to get to 700 this way. Quit slacking and uncover some more malefactors.
posted by languagehat at 11:32 AM on March 13, 2008

The phrase "gal at change" is contained within languagehat, which leaves a leftover "u", which sounds like un owen, oh yes it doesssssss.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:25 PM on March 13, 2008

FACT: "gaul at change" eliminates even the hanging "u" issue.
FACT: languagehat knows more about the French language than a red-blooded American has any right to.

You do the math.
posted by cortex at 12:33 PM on March 13, 2008

Well, Sys Req got "Poison Arrow" by ABC stuck in my head.

You think you're smart… Stupid, stupid
posted by klangklangston at 12:38 PM on March 13, 2008

You can get "rex c to" from cortex, so LH has obviously released the hounds now that the secret is out.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:45 PM on March 13, 2008

Oh my god, we're all minor characters from each other's pasts!

Well, except me. I'm not cool enough to hang with the kids in Massachusetts.

So, having never seen Lost, if I have no background connections with any of you, am I part of that Dharma Project thingy, or am I about to get eaten by a polar bear?
posted by dw at 12:49 PM on March 13, 2008

Yes.
posted by drezdn at 12:59 PM on March 13, 2008

The phrase "gal at change" is contained within languagehat

I don't c what you're talking about.
posted by dersins at 12:59 PM on March 13, 2008

languagefat (lol) = a full gaol agent.

...

NARC!
posted by CKmtl at 1:01 PM on March 13, 2008

So, to try to make 700, I'm going to throw out the theory that sansgras is u.n.owen.

The both have obsessions with weight, sex, and moderating their posts. They both post to metafilter. They both have less than 10 letters in their username, etc. Prove me wrong internet!
posted by drezdn at 1:02 PM on March 13, 2008

Hah! Just more evidence of his essential stinking Frenchness: Brandon Blatcher has discovered that languagehat is really languagechat!

Declaw, I say, De Claw.
posted by OmieWise at 1:02 PM on March 13, 2008

am I part of that Dharma Project thingy, or am I about to get eaten by a polar bear?

Well, just pray you're not Leslie Arzt.

Kerpow.
posted by miss lynnster at 1:04 PM on March 13, 2008

Plus, (unless someone memailed her) what brought her attention to this rambling thread? On top of that sansgras backwards is sargsnas which is nearly Norwegian for "to own" which sort of sounds like owen.
posted by drezdn at 1:05 PM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

dude, this is freaking me out!

Sansgras - without fat
Un Owen - without Owen. There was a kid with a slight weight problem in my high school! OMFG!
posted by dirtdirt at 1:20 PM on March 13, 2008

I am so on the other side of the looking glass right now i forgot to mention that that kid, the slightly husky one, was named OWEN!!!!
posted by dirtdirt at 1:22 PM on March 13, 2008

If anybody wants to take up a real owen-related science projects, I'd suggest an orthographic review of the InnocentBystander posting history to see if two distinct modes of writing can be sussed out. Comments explicitly identified as [IB's wife] could be taken as a baseline corpus for her; comments from before her big meltdown could be taken as a baseline for him. Your assignment: ID the poster of all remaining IB comments based on what you can gather from the writing itself.
posted by cortex at 1:28 PM on March 13, 2008

languagehat is really languagechat!

MROWWR!

*shits in OmieWise's shoes*
posted by languagehat at 1:31 PM on March 13, 2008

(For example, I noticed when doing some research the other day a propensity toward emphasis using CAPITALIZATION, as well as a possible idiosyncratic use of *bounding asterisks for emphasis* that was not necessarily the more [most?] common mefi pattern of Erikative-like *description of action taken* stranded verb-phrase characterizations. I didn't really dig into either of these, nor did I pin them on one or the other of the two folks involved, but there are at least analyzable artifacts like that.

Though, of course, if they're a close couple and sharing computer time, there's the reasonable chance that some of these tendencies could become assimilated in either direction over time, thus muddying the forensic waters a bit. But still!)
posted by cortex at 1:33 PM on March 13, 2008

(Also, the character string "ill!)" is kind of a crazy mess of verticle lines.)
posted by cortex at 1:34 PM on March 13, 2008

|||!
posted by klangklangston at 1:44 PM on March 13, 2008

Cortex, of course, if anyone follows through on your suggestion, it needs to be turned into a greasemonkey script that automatically inserts "[Innocentbystander's Wife]" when owen typing is detected.
posted by drezdn at 1:47 PM on March 13, 2008

You know what that is?

Ill!
posted by dersins at 1:47 PM on March 13, 2008

oh btw
posted by cortex at 1:53 PM on March 13, 2008

posted by cortex at 1:53 PM on March 13, 2008

My least favorite club!
posted by dersins at 1:53 PM on March 13, 2008

So, speaking of LOST, I read on a spoiler site that we'll learn tonight that Ben is Vincent's biological father.

ZOMG SPOILER ALERT
posted by UKnowForKids at 1:53 PM on March 13, 2008

I didn't really dig into either of these, nor did I pin them on one or the other of the two folks involved, but there are at least analyzable artifacts like that.

Relatedly, cortex, all artefacts are palimpsests with infinite layers. Here, settle down--you comfy?--I have a lot of theories on this, and I want to bounce some of them off of you . . .
posted by Skot at 2:02 PM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Though, of course, if they're a close couple and sharing computer time, there's the reasonable chance that some of these tendencies could become assimilated in either direction over time, thus muddying the forensic waters a bit

I don't see why- or how. Stynxno and I share computers- I use his, he uses mine, but that doesn't link how we say what we say on the site. I can't imagine two differing styles fusing into one simply because of the "real life" nature of their relationship.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:07 PM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

There he goes, abusing his admin powers again. Rise up, MetaFilter peons! Storm the barricades and reclaim the img tag!
posted by languagehat at 2:19 PM on March 13, 2008

I don't see why- or how. Stynxno and I share computers- I use his, he uses mine, but that doesn't link how we say what we say on the site. I can't imagine two differing styles fusing into one simply because of the "real life" nature of their relationship.

Give it time. You'll soon be finishing each other's posts.
posted by dw at 2:45 PM on March 13, 2008

TPS, I disagree. I don't mean to imply that UN and IB would totally converge, stylistically, but some creeping assimilation of this or that bit of typography wouldn't surprise me one bit. My writing style has not been static over the last few years, and what changes I've adopted reflect in part what I've consciously liked or subconsciously imitated in those around me. Why would that not hold just as true, if not more so, for folks not just sharing a website but in a close relationship?

That's not to say it's a given; maybe you and stynx have adopted none of one another's phrases or style tics since you've been together—neither intentionally nor accidentally, earnestly or ironically, gladly or despairingly. I can't say (at least, not without doing a bunch of research into your respective commenting histories), but I'd be surprised if there weren't some things.

(The fact that I occasionally unselfconsciously use as an intensifier "hella", a word I more or less loathe and actively rejected for years when e.g. my sister was using it daily, is a case-in-point for the porousness of one's supposed language barriers. But I may be a bit of a sponge, linguistically; I don't know.)

Now, things like novel typographic tricks I would expect to be even more liable to lead to assimilation of observed behavior. I'd wager that where people feel a strong sense of (and even unspoken obligation to) the idea that their choice of words is part of their stylistic/expressive identity, there's less strong, less explicit a sense of identity in how folks choose to emphasize* their words in type. Or, at least, that a strong, stubborn sense of typographical identity isn't likely to be in place as soon: someone already comfortable and set in their manner of "talking" (out loud or on paper or via keyboard) may be less set in the specific sorts of characters and keystrokes and codes they use to pick out the key bits of what they're saying.

All speculation, admittedly; I haven't formally studied any of this. But stylistic assimilation is something I very much, however unstudiously, believe is a (perhaps not universal, and/or perhaps largely invisible to those to whom it happens) real and common phenomenon.

*or emphasize or "emphasize" or emphasize or *emphasize* or emphasize¿
posted by cortex at 2:48 PM on March 13, 2008

Relatedly, cortex, all artefacts are palimpsests with infinite layers.

I smell a Big Big Question.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:48 PM on March 13, 2008

TPS, I disagree. I don't mean to imply that UN and IB would totally converge, stylistically, but some creeping assimilation of this or that bit of typography wouldn't surprise me one bit. My writing style has not been static over the last few years, and what changes I've adopted reflect in part what I've consciously liked or subconsciously imitated in those around me

I know that conversation styles change over time. But just because two people have face time does not necessarily mean their online activity will intertwine. I don't know that Marc (Stynxno) and I cross paths much on Metafilter- he's often mentioning a post to me that I hadn't seen at all, and vice versa. Our interests are different (he's more on the blue, I'm more on the green, we meet on the grey), and I don't follow his activity very closely. Therefore, I don't think that I would consider him an influence moreso than the people whose work I actually read on a regular basis (shoutouts to my pals on the green) simply because we're together in "real" life. I'd be interested to hear how it works for other couples.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:58 PM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Fair enough. One of the things I'm presupposing is that IB and UN may have spent a fair amount of time computing together in a context where they'd see one another's text; I don't know if I really stated that explicitly above, and I don't know for sure that that's even the case, but that's part of my reasoning here.

If you and Stynxno don't really read each others words in any more than a normal proportion to the words of any other users or authors online; if you don't spend more effort and more attention to the things written by one another that you do read than you do to things written by other people; if there's no mapping of verbal expressive tics to writing; no extra one-to-one exposure of one's writing to the other (vetting each other's drafts of a letter or a comment or a post, writing a lot of email to one another, etc): then, yeah, it seems like something that wouldn't be likely to apply as a couple-specific phenomenon above the normal baseline assimilation of other people's writing in general.
posted by cortex at 3:11 PM on March 13, 2008

I'd be interested to hear how it works for other couples.

My wife and I were both on the same forum for a while. One day, I said something in frustration that violated the unwritten double-sekrit TOS and there was a big, long discussion about whether I should be banned or not. I left. My wife followed minutes later, pissed at the pitchforks they would be waving at HER HUSBAND.

IOW, it was a total disaster.

So, now, we don't frequent the same groups, save one baseball blog where I am a regular commenter and she's a lurker and sometimes commenter. Entirely by choice. Not sharing the same web space saves us the emotional investment for other problems.
posted by dw at 3:12 PM on March 13, 2008

If you and Stynxno don't really read each others words in any more than a normal proportion to the words of any other users or authors online

We really don't, and it always surprises me when people assume that we do- like when people assume he makes posts related to celebrity gossip because I want him to or I tell him to. Nothing of the sort; I have about as much to do with his posts or comments as I do with the posts or comments of any other Mefite I correspond with regularly (The poster formerly known as Hermitosis would often run stuff by me, but no one holds me accountable for his stuff). And like dw illustrates, it's probably better that way.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:19 PM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'd be interested to hear how it works for other couples.

My wife reads the site at different times than I do, and it's always a source of amusement to me when I'm reading a comment, and I find myself totally agreeing with the commenter on some strange or arcane topic, only to scroll down and see that it was something that she said.

Apparently the same thing happens sometimes when she reads my stuff.

We mostly just use the site in a "didja see that one thread about the thing today?"

I don't think our writing styles are much alike, but I'm not a good judge of that kind of thing. I know that she tends to stay better on topic and make less indirect threats at random figments of the imagination.

Which is good, I suppose.
posted by quin at 3:35 PM on March 13, 2008

Hey! Bring back the .img tag for ALL! Please, of purty please!
posted by ericb at 3:37 PM on March 13, 2008

We really don't, and it always surprises me when people assume that we do- like when people assume he makes posts related to celebrity gossip because I want him to or I tell him to.

Well, I don't really associate the latter with the former; attending to one another's writing is a lot more natural-seeming to me than e.g. compelling one another to post this or that by proxy.

But, I dunno. It doesn't surprise me that people would assume couples who are both active online and active to some extent in the same places online would be exposed to one anothers writing. (Then again, since I tend to expect that, it's not surprising that I'm not surprised by such an assumption. I eat my own tail, I know.) I reckon that there's two general things that could be said:

1. Two people who spend time writing/commenting on the same site(s) and who are also in a close personal relationship are on average more likely to attend to one another's writing in detail than two people who write/comment on the same site(s) but have no other relationship.

2. Coupledom may have polarizing and magnifying effects on the site-sharing (and comments-reading/-responding) pragmas of the two people: they might either be much more attentive to one another's activities on a given site, or they might pointedly be less attentive (or even mutually exclusive) in the sites they spend time on—in either case as a direct result (happenstance or explicitly enforced) of their personal relationship.

If I'm going to defend my speculation that UN and IB spent time proportionally greater time reading each other's text and were thus exposed to a greater-than-normal chance of stylistic assimilation, I'd have to do it with the above framework in mind, I suppose.
posted by cortex at 3:38 PM on March 13, 2008

"I'd be interested to hear how it works for other couples."

My, um, verbosity here has, I think, quieted my girlfriend somewhat. I tend to be, um, outspoken, and she tends to be, um, more reserved. Also, she thinks I can be a dick on the internet when, man, I'm just keepin' it rizz-eal.

Also, man, Kate, what's up with the retarded black girl on ANTM? She ALSO looks like Tootie, but is arguably the dumbest girl EVAR on ANTM.

And one thing that's been bringing Amy and I no end of mirth is pretending that the theme of this cycle is literacy—every time that scroll comes across with "Tyra Mail," the stilted shout-along makes it too easy to pretend that they're all now just learning to read.
posted by klangklangston at 4:33 PM on March 13, 2008

"Dumbest girl EVAR on ANTM"? That's a tight competition, dude.
posted by pxe2000 at 4:49 PM on March 13, 2008

I eat my own tail, I know.

Are you aware that that's against the law in seventeen states and prohibited by most religious traditions? ARE YOU??
posted by languagehat at 5:00 PM on March 13, 2008

Like you wouldn't believe! She makes that weird blonde from the last cycle sound like Foucault.

Oh, and since (I hope) this thread has totally degenerated: Here's an ILX thread that I'd FPP if I were only a little more OK with being BALETED immediately.
posted by klangklangston at 5:00 PM on March 13, 2008

Wowie. Wowzers. The prose is something else, too:

"ALright Nas take off the sweat pants and your question is what person have you fucked in the music business that surprised you the most?"
Nas took off his sweat pants and was a little embarrassed cause his dick was super hard from Method Man's story.
"Let me think...truthfully I have to say R. Kelly."

Best all-rapper embedded-narrative strip-poker-truth-or-dare slashfic erotica EVAR.
posted by cortex at 5:07 PM on March 13, 2008

But TPS, you don't share accounts, which probably leads to less interaction. I think it really depends on how much you use the computer to communicate. For example, I rarely talk to my boyfriend online when we're in the same city, but I facebook my roommates all the time. It depends on the relationship.

Also, can we talk about the ANTM make overs? They were HORRIBLE this year. Oh god. The horse tail? The cheap weaves? They made weird-talking Hawaiian into an albino?
posted by fermezporte at 5:10 PM on March 13, 2008

Seriously, that is what Chaucer would be writing if he was alive today and completely, completely fucked up on bad drugs.
posted by cortex at 5:10 PM on March 13, 2008

I'm pretty shocked that Lauren is still on the show but her picture this week was pretty good.
posted by Stynxno at 5:10 PM on March 13, 2008

I'd be interested to hear how it works for other couples.

My ex-boyfriend once said that he basically thought that people on MeFi were a bunch of assholes and flipped out that I asked an AskMe question about him and his bad habits. When we split up, he asked me to change his username and I did.

I'm sorry, what was the question again?
posted by jessamyn at 5:12 PM on March 13, 2008

The question is what person have you fucked in the music business that surprised you the most?

Truthfully I have to say Jeff Tweedy.
posted by cortex at 5:14 PM on March 13, 2008

"Best all-rapper embedded-narrative strip-poker-truth-or-dare slashfic erotica EVAR."

I loved the bit about the guy not bein' gay or nothin', but he'd totally fuck Usher.

"When we split up, he asked me to change his username and I did. "

So what was Cortex's username before that?
posted by klangklangston at 5:17 PM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Also, can we talk about the ANTM make overs? They were HORRIBLE this year. Oh god. The horse tail? The cheap weaves? They made weird-talking Hawaiian into an albino?"

Yeah, they're caught in the last days of '80s nostalgia, though the skinhead is starting to totally try to rock the '90s again. I mean, high-waisted pants? Those look great on my mom.

The weird-talking Hawaiian is now known as Powder at our house. We're waiting for her magnetic powers.
posted by klangklangston at 5:20 PM on March 13, 2008

I would just like to say that I have to get an abstract in by midnight and I am _still_ reading this thread. If I have a total meltdown, do you think we could get to 1000?
posted by LittleMissCranky at 5:27 PM on March 13, 2008

Very possibly.
posted by jerseygirl at 5:33 PM on March 13, 2008

Also, man, Kate, what's up with the retarded black girl on ANTM? She ALSO looks like Tootie, but is arguably the dumbest girl EVAR on ANTM.

You mean Staaaaaceeeeey Annnnnnn? I actually don't hate her so much, probably because I feel so sorry for her with that mop haircut they gave her. Awful. I would give the dumbest girl ever award to the "Hawaiian"- I put that in quotes because I don't want to blame Hawaii for the way she talks- who the hell taught her how to talk like that? I didn't know it was possible for someone born in America to end up sending Eastern European. I really really REALLY hate "punk rock" Lauren. Haaate. HAAAATE.

I agree that most of the makeovers this year were just horrendous. I thought the now-departed UES Bitch Allison looked much better as a brunette than as a redhead, I think Claire looks better but still awful with her Sinead O' Connor do, I think white girls look ridiculous with weaves, because they never blend in with their natural hair properly and none of them seem to understand how to care for them. I actually kind of like Marvita's Horse Tail look, though, and hope that she's final two with Fatima (who better catch up her posing with her gorgeous face or I'll be ticked).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:39 PM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

I would just like to say that I have to get an abstract in by midnight and I am _still_ reading this thread. If I have a total meltdown, do you think we could get to 1000?

It would help if you confessed to being Kaycee and/or dhoyt.
posted by languagehat at 5:41 PM on March 13, 2008

The question is what person have you fucked in the music business that surprised you the most?

Oh simple, Kim Thayil.
posted by jessamyn at 6:34 PM on March 13, 2008

You were all, like, "But Kim's a girl's name and you've got long hair!"

I really really REALLY hate "punk rock" Lauren. Haaate. HAAAATE.

Really? I find her journey from observing the horrible shit women are expected to do for fashion, through letting them do it to her, and finally to her doing it to herself, incredibly captivating. Plus, she's inept, and that's punk rock.
posted by klangklangston at 7:09 PM on March 13, 2008

jessamyn: "Remember please, I am the humorless mod."

Sting was very convincing as you, I thought, mathowie played by Phil Daniels was a treat, and Leslie Ash in the role of cortex... wow. The recumbent Vespas were so cool, but did mathowie really have to ride off this thread at the end? If only his mum hadn't found the stash of blue n owens...
posted by jack_mo at 7:10 PM on March 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Things I learned today:

1. James Brown likes the hotpants.
2. This little guy

Sans quoi? March 10, 2008 5:30 AM Subscribe

Sans quoi?
March 10, 2008 5:30 AM Subscribe