"Dear Doormat:posted by zarq at 8:47 AM on August 15, 2012 [45 favorites]
Please take the following steps, in order:
1. Stop being a doormat.
2. Get a lawyer."
1610s, from L. hystericus "of the womb," from Gk. hysterikos "of the womb, suffering in the womb," from hystera "womb" (see uterus). Originally defined as a neurotic condition peculiar to women and thought to be caused by a dysfunction of the uterus. Meaning "very funny" (by 1939) is from the notion of uncontrollable fits of laughter. Related: Hysterically. citeposted by cjorgensen at 11:52 AM on August 15, 2012
Lexica:I made the mistake of telling a frightened sixteen year old "Sorry. You probably didn't see me coming," in order to let her know I wasn't mad at her for turning in front of me and causing a collision. Her mother arrived and tried to turn that into a confession of guilt - without telling us. I had assumed we were all on the same page - it was pretty much physically impossible for this to have been my fault - bet as soon as the police arrived an hour later her first words were, "It's his fault!" and then accused me of changing the story when I protested.
"The first part is changing, in some jurisdictions — saying "I'm sorry" is not considered a confession of guilt (unless the person goes on to say something like "I totally didn't see you" or "it was all my fault")."
No. That would be unreasonable.posted by Drastic at 3:40 PM on August 15, 2012 [9 favorites]
schmod: There have been a few threads where, in my opinion, a pile-on ends up adding an unfair/unnecessary male-negative tone to the discussion.This. I completely agree with OP's premise that this place does seem to have a strong anti-male stance- or to put it another way, a fierce wind blowing against even hinting that somewhere, any man might actually suffer or not have a perfect "privileged" life because of his testicles. If you were foolish enough to suggest that, you'd be shouted down by a cadre of MeFites accusing you of "making it all about men", "mansplaining", etc, and whose script clearly states that all women suffer impossibly, and all men are triumphant and living high on the hog because patriarchy, oh and also, poverty, and income inequality, and also enforced gender roles in third world countries that none of us have ever even visited.
Unless there are some very glaring comments that were deleted, this was not one of those threads, and I don't think that it's an overwhelming problem on Metafilter. I've only seen it happen once or twice here.
Green with you: Honest disagreement is not gaslighting.I completely agree. Not agreeing: most everyone who uses the term "gaslighting", as if any honest disagreement or attempt at nuancing is a conspiracy to silence women's voices.
the young rope-rider: To see you throw that back in their face like you're being persecuted is so classically you. Always the victim, no matter what. Shine on, dude. Shine on.So you're saying I wear the mantle of victimhood? Teapot, kettle.
Sidhedevil: I want to know where men are living that they see that "the pendulum has swung too far" because as a woman, I'd love to spend some time there.Honestly? Seattle, the Capitol Hill neighborhood (historically gay-friendly and youthful), and working at companies like Microsoft that take sexual harassment very seriously and are populated by people far less likely to engage in bro-ish behavior, and who avoided the testosterone-steeped upbringing that apparently affected these unnamed men perpetrating evils on the world.
Underscoring this point is the fact that there is something that calls itself a Men’s Rights Movement, but it consists of nothing but knee-jerk anti-feminism. It is made up primarily of angry, alienated men who have fully bought into the myths of hegemonic masculinity and gender roles, and not found the success and happiness that the myths implicitly promised. Since feminism is the only movement around that is attempting to dismantle those myths, they conclude that feminism is the cause of their unhappiness. If not for those meddling feminists, things would be okay. They would argue that this is a mischaracterization, but a thorough examination of their arguments reveals that this is, in fact, their sole intellectual basis. Any analysis of any issue that does not begin and end by blaming feminists, or preferably all women, is immediately discarded. Thus, lacking the social analysis tools feminists pioneered, they can accomplish nothing but surly misogyny and occasional outbreaks of violence. The authors of this book spent quite some time attempting to find MRAs who could be engaged in a constructive manner, but eventually gave up. If men’s rights are to be addressed on any kind of serious level, it will have to be by feminism.posted by Forktine at 8:53 PM on August 15, 2012 [20 favorites]
KathrynT: My husband and I, between us, have a combined twenty-plus years at Microsoft, and I have witnessed appallingly, appallingly sexist behavior there. From the interviewer who asked if I was getting married soon, because (as he told me straight up to my face) he didn't want to have someone who was going to leave to have children, to the GPM who kept (yes, more than once) hiring strippers for the ship parties, it just really is laughable to me that this is the example of the place where the pendulum has swung too far.Huh, see I haven't seen that stuff there. At tech companies I've been at, they have "How to interview" training, where they explicitly tell you not to ask things about age, or family life, or children, etc which could be troublesome if you say "no hire". Keep it professional and focused on demonstrable skills and past work related to the job, etc. Isn't... that a good thing? Which divisions where you in that these things were being done- and what did you say or do to stop it or call it out? I have never seen a place at Microsoft where someone would hire strippers for a ship party- jesus, everyone knows that'd get you fucking fired. Honestly, you're basically telling me something that sounds like science fiction!
grouse: I have to wonder what the makeup of Microsoft would be like in a world hincandenza would think was fair? Maybe split the meager gains women have made there in half—drop from one-quarter to one-eighth female employees, and maybe make the sole female senior executive work part-time?Yeah, really scary, because that's totally what I said! Jesus christ, why can't you be more like Kattullus and try to engage someone in good faith? I appreciated and liked that comment, because for starters it assumed I was a human being, who isn't a sociopath or a monster, and is probably not anti-woman. I know, crazy huh?
Scary indeed.
The (500) Days of Summer attitude of “He wants you so bad” seems attractive to some women and men, especially younger ones, but I would encourage anyone who has a crush on my character to watch it again and examine how selfish he is. He develops a mildly delusional obsession over a girl onto whom he projects all these fantasies. He thinks she’ll give his life meaning because he doesn’t care about much else going on in his life. A lot of boys and girls think their lives will have meaning if they find a partner who wants nothing else in life but them. That’s not healthy. That’s falling in love with the idea of a person, not the actual person.And in the thread, currently the top response is a guy reacting to that and saying he's been acting that way, and he now gets that he should stop. So normally, that would be a great thing to link to, right. The Problem is male behavior - here is a guy explaining male behavior in a way that clearly has had an effect on guys who are exhibiting what is basically a form of creepy behavior. And it is propelled by the media. I was alluding to things like that in the thread, linking videos and scripts, which is standard Metafilter behavior, but it was not well received at all. My thought process is the same thing - the problem is male behavior, I recognize some of the influences that lead people to have these warped and creepy conceptions of how to be, I can point that out and then I or anyone else who reads it can essentially see right through a creepy person's personality and call it what it is, hopefully reaching current creeps and creeps in the making/choosing. I never shouted down any women, I never said women's experiences were invalid or that it was their fault or anything like that at all. But in some of these threads this pretty typically fine metafilter behavior is causing a problem.
But I have seen moderators make decisions (mostly involving comment deletions) based on their own personal values and perceived values of the community. I dunno, maybe y'all need to make decisions like that to keep the piece. It's your job, not mine, I ain't gonna tell you how to do it.How else is any mod, not just here, going to make decisions other than on "their own personal values and perceived values of the community"? Other than banning straight up spammers, there will always be a subjective element involved.
Another thing that strikes me as weird is how the mods here will weigh in on topical/opinionated discussions. I don't think it's weird or bad or unkosher or anything, but if I ran a site like this, I'd probably try to avoid it. Whether you like it or not, when a mod says something, it always carries extra weight. Especially when the mods are as visible as they are here.It strikes me as one of the things that make this place great, that the mods in general behave just like other users and carry their modness lightly, so to speak. I never get the impression that a cortex or a taz or whoever speak as mods in any discussion, except when they're acting within their remit. For me, the difference between when they're speaking in their official capacity and when they're just shooting the breeze like the rest of us has always been clear.
Men are more conservative in facial movement and body contact. However, they do tend to be unreserved in sitting styles: sprawling, stretching and spreading out. The intensity level for women drops for the sitting position -- they tend to draw in, keeping arms and legs close to their bodies....The goal for men, however, depends upon the task. Want to appear in charge? Use the body to control the discussion space.
Men take up space, lots of space. They’re taught to spread arms and legs all over the place, make wide gestures, power through crowds. They’re taught to expect everyone to get out of their way and be affronted when that doesn’t happen.
One way to indicate acceptance of one's place and deference to those of superior status is to follow the rules of "personal space." Sommer has observed that dominant animals and human beings have a larger envelope of inviolability surrounding them -- i.e., they are approached less closely -- than those of lower status.18 Various authors have subsequently shown that this rule applies between men and women, with women both having smaller personal space than men and tending to yield space to men when the two sexes come into proximity.19 And women's time, like their space, can be invaded readily.I don't have time to search up more links, but gendered communication also takes in the use of the body in space and the messages it tends to send. There's also an underlying confidence, which might arise from the widely mutually supported sense of group dominance we call "privilege," that the person taking up excess space is entitled to take up that space.
Oh I "close up" as soon as anyone needs or is near the space I'm in. I never recline my chair on a flight, because I know how annoying and painful it is for the person (like me) behind you. It never even gets to the "be polite" point because I just withstand the pain and "close up" almost immediately.You are not the problem. Your behavior does not match the behavior that's being criticized. You are, if anything, being so considerate of the people around you that it's causing problems for you.
Awkwardly-large (in whatever dimension) people who are aware of others around them are obviously aware of others around them. There's an enormous difference between a dude who's taking up a seat and a half because he thinks he's entitled to it, and a dude who's taking up a seat and a half because his knees can't go forward-facing in the space between rows. Your body language makes it obvious.Similarly with people who have physical issues that affect how they sit. Somebody who's taking up two seats but who's holding a cane or looks like they're dealing with pain is pretty clearly not doing it to be a jerk.
I don't think it's even necessary to introduce the question "Is he a rapist" into the dynamic. If I am on the bus reading a book (and I am always reading a book. I take the bus because I can read on it, which buys me an extra hour of study time every class day over other transit methods), then it would be courteous of a stranger not to assume that his or her desire to chat with me, or flirt with me, or pick me up supercedes my desire to read my book.And here:
To a great many people, an unsolicited and blatantly sexual sexual message is threatening. Let me break down some reasons why: the person issuing the "invitation" is loudly breaking several boundaries of widespread social interaction, e.g., we don't usually yell at strangers, we don't usually trumpet sexual interest, we don't usually try to jump from strangerhood into sexual relationships. A person who disregards these pretty basic social boundaries may not respect other social contracts, including the prohibitions against touching strangers, beating up strangers, and raping strangers.And here:
It's the cheerful willingness of intrusive strangers to disregard these cues and clues that puts me on my guard. If a stranger disregards or misses a whole series of socially accepted clues, I start wondering what other clues and social boundaries they will disregard or miss. I get wary --- not so much of their intent as of their ability to gauge another person's boundaries.And here:
[this Kate Harding thread on the subject] points out that the male-privilege of expecting female attention in public is not solely expressed in lurid catcalling or other sexual attention, but also in the more innocuous guise of, for example, the little old man who thinks you should chat with him and let him pat your hand rather than reading your book or listening to your iPod.And here:
As I pointed out above, my perception of risk goes up sharply when the person trying to get my attention has already ignored my strong social cues indicating that I don't want to engage with him. (These cues are the focus of the linked article, too.) If a stranger is willing to ignore widely respected social guidelines simply because he desires the pleasure of my attention, I am very wary of him. If he is oblivious to or disrespectful of these socially agreed upon boundaries, I wonder what other boundaries he will ignore.It seemed to me that that was the overwhelming sentiment women expressed in that thread: A) that strangers --- mostly men --- frequently ignore the common social or conversational cues that we wish to avoid engaging with them and insist upon receiving some attention; B) it's reasonable to wonder if someone who so insistently or unknowingly blows past those socially agreed-upon boundaries will also ignore other, more crucial boundaries and cause us harm.
Durn Bronzefist: How about we listen to each other? No? No good? Alright then. Laters.
No. No good. Not about this. I'm deadly serious. This is a one of the main problems of the conversation we're having here, and of any conversation between (some) men and (most) women about rape and rape culture.
We don't have to listen to you; you have to listen to us. Nothing you have to say has any bearing on how we have no choice but to live our lives in a world you don't live in. You might be the best guy ever--a saint of a human being--but nothing you say to us on this topic makes any kind of difference in our experiences in a culture in which misogyny is so unbelievably ingrained that men (and some women) don't know or see about 90% of it until they bother to look really, really closely. Again, I recommend this discussion.
Men don't get a pass on feeling uncomfortable in this conversation. You should feel uncomfortable. When confronted with an involved and complex discussion of racism, I learned very quickly that I did not have the right to counter what POCs were saying with "but but but" and "I'm not like that" and "well, but you should also listen to me--shouldn't we listen to each other, after all?" That's the classic derail in which I try to make their discussion about their lives into a discussion about me, which is what you and several others here are trying to do. What I had the right to do was shut up and listen to them, and ask questions about what I didn't understand, so that I could learn about their world--a world that I don't live in. You can bet your ass that I was uncomfortable. But I also became so much more aware of the pervasiveness of racism in our society--so much more than I could possibly have imagined. Beyond anything I might have thought I'd known. So yeah, I don't have to listen to you about your thoughts about where I live, because You Don't Live Here.
You don't want to face the fact that you quite probably don't understand what we're talking about, and would rather be glib or smug? Nothing we can do about that, but that makes you a great big part of the problem. You clearly have no desire to do the work required to gain serious understanding, because then you'd have to admit that you're wrong.
But it is obvious that you would rather not entertain the notion that you might learn things that will make you uncomfortable--that, or you truly believe that women should have to listen to what men have to say about women's lives in a discussion of something only women can, and do, experience. If that's the case, as you say, laters.
posted by tzikeh at 3:05 PM on October 8, 2009 [66 favorites -] [!]
My issue with the concept of "rudeness" as it relates to conversations like these is that I find many, many sexist* statments, no matter how "politely" expressed, to be inherently insulting and hurtful. There's no polite way to say that women aren't good at taking care of children**, for example. It's just never going to be polite. I find it understandable to respond to statements like those with rudeness. That's life in a social setting--insult a bunch of people, and they're going to be pissed off and act like they're pissed off, and that includes the occasional snarky comment.And I wish we, as a community, could start thinking about what tolerating sexist microaggression from certain community members does for whole other populations of community members, no matter how "politely" those microaggressions are phrased. Particularly when addressing those microaggressions leads to the justifiably hurt members of those sub-populations to be labeled as "bullies," as happened in this thread and has happened in the past.
if there was a thread about racism and a bunch of white people jumped in and started problematizing racist white people's behavior and trying to figure out why they thought the way they did and what was the best way to combat that and end racism, well I'd turn a darn cartwheel.and
I'm saying if people think that black folk want to talk about the problems but would react adversely to a bunch of white people coming into a thread and talking about how racist white people think, in an attempt to attack and end racism, I believe those people would be wrong. It doesn't happen to work the same way.I agree that those sound like valuable conversations to have. They are not the only conversations to have.
posted by inigo2 at 7:47 AM on August 15, 2012 [96 favorites]