Can we close signups now? December 1, 2004 8:01 AM   Subscribe

Can we close the door now? I'm genuinely happy to have some new blood, but here's the problem. Pretty much everyone who's been reading the site with their noses against the glass has been let in. Hereafter, we're going to get a bunch of folks who happen to be wandering by, and know nothing of how things are done around here. (I don't know if that's the case with notmtwain, I'm only using his/her post as an example because it glares so.) We can always open it up again later, but can we have a moratorium on new users? Just for now? Please?
posted by jpoulos to Etiquette/Policy at 8:01 AM (129 comments total)

(Damn. That word "folks" was supposed to have [bushism] tags around it. I don't actually talk like that.)
posted by jpoulos at 8:04 AM on December 1, 2004


Few bad apples.
posted by Stan Chin at 8:05 AM on December 1, 2004


*tries to look stern and fearful of the future of MeFi, covers face and busts up laughing*

That post just has to be a joke. A post about spewing that spews and spews. Please tell me this was done on purpose.
posted by Shane at 8:07 AM on December 1, 2004


I guess the question would be: how much is it worth to Matt to go through and delete worthless threads like the above mentioned and how much is it worth to him to have users complain about the new people that don't know what "." means. If that's worth a few hundred dollars a month to keep the new user registration open and for joke threads like above to appear a few times a week, then we have the answer.
posted by Arch Stanton at 8:07 AM on December 1, 2004


2000 new users and, what, five bad n00b posts so far? That's still 1995 potentially valuable and interesting new folks.

Perhaps on their way to their first post the new users could be forced to read a FAQ and click a button that says "I accept the fact that if I violate any of these no-nos I will be given an atomic wedgie by the cool kids."
posted by bondcliff at 8:13 AM on December 1, 2004


OMG, i've missed the best post evar. There's no way that kid was serious. The bright lights are fading slowly into the abyss, subjugated by irrelevant questions about vibrating, double posts, and linking to websters?!

I'm with jpoulos. Mefi is getting so common.
posted by naxosaxur at 8:22 AM on December 1, 2004


hotdamn, that was good.
posted by poopy at 8:22 AM on December 1, 2004


And if they don't know what an atomic wedgie is, they can look it up.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 8:23 AM on December 1, 2004


I contend that the front page of metafilter is better with the new blood, a lot better.

(I can delete the speed bumps along the way, it's my job)
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:27 AM on December 1, 2004


Please hammer, don't hurt 'em. I think the newbies are doing fine.
posted by angry modem at 8:31 AM on December 1, 2004


I agree with Matt. They have their learners permits, they'll learn to drive this crazy thing... eventually.
posted by terrapin at 8:29 AM on December 1, 2004


It's unpossible that this wasn't a joke... A pretty nicely set up guffaw, as well - scattering a few comments here and there beforehand that sounded just vanilla enough to be convincing. I don't know which is funnier, though - notmtwain as the real deal, or as smartass mefiosi.
posted by taz at 8:30 AM on December 1, 2004


What Stan said. And Matt. Remember the summer of 2002 when it was just an insane Noobfest when the 15s and 16s came flooding in? They were going nuts, much more than now. I can't remember exactly but Stan might have even been part of that group. It seemed like it was the end of MeFi, but it shook out just fine, and some of them made this place a lot more interesting. Give them some guidance about topics, double posting and how to search the archives, and cut them some slack. Things will be OK.

Dictionary Guy may just be hopped up on goofballs. Check out his recent blog post.
posted by planetkyoto at 8:39 AM on December 1, 2004


It was bad formatting, not someone setting the house on fire.

This is a little too "there goes the nieghorhood," for my taste.
posted by jonmc at 8:43 AM on December 1, 2004


mathowie, how about increasing their front page post initial waiting period by a few weeks, so they can further digest the appropriate level of discourse? I also suggest setting a new waiting period for commenting because I've witnessed so many comments that are completely incongruent with the topic, and you can substantiate that the motive is to just mark the thread.

I really thought that most of the newbies had been familiar lurkers to metafitler, but i'm finding it's not the case. There are many voices that apparently are completely unfamiliar with meta guidelines and protocol. We've been such a tightly organized website for such a long time, that the smallest infringement resonates loudly. It’s jarring, but hopefully not inauspicious.
posted by naxosaxur at 8:44 AM on December 1, 2004


Remember the summer of 2002 when it was just an insane Noobfest when the 15s and 16s came flooding in?

I'm one of those insane 15s, but I'd like to point out that I have an old 5,000-series username I utterly forgot about when I signed up as a 15K. I should have pointed that out when the "old boys" were jumping on "newbie" me ;-)

...hopped up on goofballs...

Great phrase, but in my nitpickin' opinion it works best (and sounds most authentically vintage) as "all hepped up on goofballs."
posted by Shane at 8:46 AM on December 1, 2004


It wasn't "just bad formatting"--it was bad formatting of completely idiotic content, followed by angry self-defense in the thread.

Just sayin'.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:48 AM on December 1, 2004


jonmc, I didn't think it was so funny because of the formatting (but. nice touch!), I thought it was funny because it was a link to Webster's.

But I love all the new traffic in the old neighborhood! The old girl's getting perky again.
posted by taz at 8:49 AM on December 1, 2004


As a noob, let me reply:

There is a difference between lurking and participating. As a lurker, I did not read all the comments as closely as I am starting to do now. There's a difference between familiarity (which is achievable as a lurker) and intimacy (as a full participant). I will admit to posting inane stuff at the wrong time in the wrong places. I've made all the noob mistakes, and have been rightfully hammered for them. It's part of the learning curve.

It's a cliche, but think back to when you were noobs. Were you as brilliant and witty then as you are today?
posted by Doohickie at 8:52 AM on December 1, 2004


"Hereafter, we're going to get a bunch of folks who ..know nothing of how things are done around here."

Oh man that is pricless.

Where's my banjo ma?
posted by Frasermoo at 8:53 AM on December 1, 2004


That "kid" is 47. I agree, he could not have been serious - no one is that clueless. I think he was poking fun at MeFi's established order and rules. His post had a real Kibo flavor to it.
posted by caddis at 8:54 AM on December 1, 2004


Awesome, Doohickie. Glad to see the learning curve didn't scare you away. Looking forward to having you around.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 8:57 AM on December 1, 2004


I'd bet $5 he was serious.

I agree with matthowie that the front page is improved. And if he wants to keep the borders open, we're going to have to get used to mistakes like these. There will always be someone newbier than thou.

matt - is it possible to send out a welcome email to the $5 crowd with the most basic do's and don'ts of MeFi included? That might help.
posted by papercake at 9:01 AM on December 1, 2004


I didn't think it was that funny. Kibo is way, way funnier. But, tastes will vary.

There's nearly three-thousand new users. Relative to what it was like when only 150 of us hopped on the train back in April, I'm terribly impressed with these new people. I think they're great. It's amazing there hasn't been much, much worse.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:02 AM on December 1, 2004


It's a cliche, but think back to when you were noobs. Were you as brilliant and witty then as you are today?

"Let me tell you the story of another 'loser'..." -- Animal House
posted by inksyndicate at 9:11 AM on December 1, 2004


Yeah. Last April we got that Ethereal Bligh jerkface and everything went straight to hell.

Good thing that guy doesn't post anymore.
posted by neckro23 at 9:12 AM on December 1, 2004


is it possible to send out a welcome email to the $5 crowd with the most basic do's and don'ts of MeFi included? That might help.

A good idea; however, you also have to remember how overwhelming it is to try to absorb all the information on MeFi. Like I said, you look at it differently depending on whether you lurk or participate. You have to realize that noobs (like myself) might not be able to find the answers right away (witness my dumbass question about Contribution Index on another thread- I went to the right page, but didn't scroll down enough to find the definition... so I asked on the thread and DrJohn "politely" advised me to find the answer on my own). It takes a while to know whether to look at About MeFi, or Wiki, or New User Helps or whatever.

And personally, if I get hammered a few times, I will remember all this stuff better than if I try to read and memorize an email. There's no real harm done in humiliating a noob, and it's the quickest way to make us learn. I accept the discipline, master.....
posted by Doohickie at 9:14 AM on December 1, 2004


It's amazing there hasn't been much, much worse.

Thank Mister Lincoln for that.

Or possibly Monsieur Laurier plus the exchange rate.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 9:14 AM on December 1, 2004


Hi! My name is LunaticFringe, long-time lurker, first time poster, and I'd like to say that I have been trying to get on this forum for years (two, I think) and it made my day when I was able to signup! (yes, I'm pathetic)

My experience is that some of the most n00bish posters can, with much flaming and daily beatings, be turned into an intelligent poster.
posted by LunaticFringe at 9:16 AM on December 1, 2004


so I asked on the thread and DrJohn "politely" advised me to find the answer on my own

That wasn't actually meant as a jab at you. See, there was this guy who posted a link to Webster's dictionary, and... oh, forget it.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 9:16 AM on December 1, 2004


Yes, I know about that; clicked that link at the top of the page. Nevertheless, I took it as a jab at the time, went back to the page about Contribution Indexes and found the definition tucked all the way down at the bottom of the page. I intend on buying a thicker skin with my paycheck this week. I should be better, then.
posted by Doohickie at 9:25 AM on December 1, 2004


Well said, Ethereal Bligh - given the vast hordes, there's only a few folk dicking about (and to be perfectly honest I don't see much difference between the dicking about done by new members and the practiced dicking about of the elderly).

And the front page is definitely improved - I keep having to roll over usernames to see if it's an old hand showing the way with a well-done post, or a new person showing that they've done their research before splashing out the five dollars. (Or maybe its just that the election is over.)

Personally, I admire their guts and gumption - despite popping by every day, I've only posted twice, since 2002, out of raw fear of having missed an obscure Meta-dictum ;-)
posted by jack_mo at 9:25 AM on December 1, 2004


Wow. That dictionary thing is kewl! I think the nOObs are doing great.
posted by xammerboy at 9:27 AM on December 1, 2004


I surely don't want these snotty young folk messing up my country club. Who do they think they are, anyway?
posted by xmutex at 9:30 AM on December 1, 2004


NotMTwain, if you wanted everybody to know who you are, you've achieved that. But generally, it works better to wait till you have something really good to post.

A certain percentage of the n00bs are bound to be asshats; maybe it's not so bad if they out themselves promptly.

It has occurred to me that open enrollment with only a $5.00 fee might be appealing to people who want use MeFi as a soapbox (even more than the rest of us opinionated people). Anybody know if Matt looks at the referrer logs for the new user pages? A large group from, say, lgf, might be worth noting.
posted by theora55 at 9:34 AM on December 1, 2004


This is a little too "there goes the nieghorhood," for my taste.

This isn't about "there goes the neighborhood."

I welcome the new blood wholeheartedly. And I completely understand that people will make mistakes and it takes time to get acclimated to this place. All I'm saying is the new noobs will be different from the old noobs. They likely won't have any idea what they're getting into, and things could get a whole lot worse. We could very well get a whole bunch of people who don't realize there's anything wrong with blatant self-linking or quadruple posting. And if we're not going to close signups, we should at least be aware of that.
posted by jpoulos at 9:38 AM on December 1, 2004


Well, before it was closed for a long time, membership was just like that -- people could happen by and sign up. And I'd say we got lots of good members that way. (Some speedbumps, too, but we tend to deal with those via regular beatings and MeTa callouts.)

Heck, I just happened into the place, and I don't think I piss on things too often. I'm pretty sure you just happened into the place too, j-po. I just read the site for a while before I signed up.
posted by Vidiot at 9:47 AM on December 1, 2004


All I'm saying is the new noobs will be different from the old noobs. They likely won't have any idea what they're getting into, and things could get a whole lot worse. We could very well get a whole bunch of people who don't realize there's anything wrong with blatant self-linking or quadruple posting.

Maybe there should be a list of basic rules and etiquette that they'll be forced to read before finalizing signup, like a user agreement for software, maybe?
posted by jonmc at 9:49 AM on December 1, 2004


i don't think anyone said that having new blood wasn't a good thing; i think the point was just that, since all the people who had been "looking in the window" waiting to sign up have presumably already done so, everyone henceforth will have arrived here as a mostly brand-new user, not a lurking newbie, and will not have the level of familiarity with the site that our most recent wondrous new users have.

i'm not sure what i think about this, and it's ultimately up to matt, but i really do like the practice of getting a whole FLOOD of new users at once so that we can answer the common questions, get it all out of the way, and go from there. that is only accomplished, as far as i know, by opening signups for a little while, then closing them until next time. it's clear we're all more than happy to get to tell all the newbies how to behave and what to say where, but i feel like if signups remain open, that job will become a permanent part of being a metafilter user. i mean, we're mostly very understanding and happy to answer newbie questions, and there have been a lot of great "this is how things are done" posts, but i really feel like if the doors stay open indefinitely, there should at least be a more central source of answers for these common questions and stricter posting/commenting delays so that people who are BRAND new can get a taste of the community before they just jump right in.
posted by pikachulolita at 9:49 AM on December 1, 2004


jpoulos has very valid apprehension about keeping membership open, and similar reservations that I’ve experienced myself. He's clearly anticipating inevitable melees that cannot be avoided if mathowie keeps membership open. I think the best solution is to get a better faq/posting/commenting guide, and to lengthen the waiting periods to post and comment. My biggest concern is that all the annoying triple-posts and stupid novice questions will drive away the veterans, which would be detrimental to the community. Please don't leave, Mr. Veteran McFartyPants.
posted by naxosaxur at 9:57 AM on December 1, 2004


there should at least be a more central source of answers for these common questions
Start a section in MeTa called "Noobie Central, where no question is too dumb". Having nearly completed my initiation, I would be happy to staff it for a while. Those who aren't patient can avoid the place, and those who are welcoming and patient can help out the new folks. Out of several thousand posters, you would think one or two would voluntarily stop by Noobie Central on a regular basis. Lots of discussion boards have sections like that.
posted by Doohickie at 10:05 AM on December 1, 2004


there should be a list of basic rules and etiquette that they'll be forced to read before finalizing signup, like a user agreement for software, maybe?

Because people always read the EULA. Always.
posted by rocketman at 10:08 AM on December 1, 2004


Well, before it was closed for a long time, membership was just like that -- people could happen by and sign up.

This is true, but the site didn't have the visibility it has today.

Plus, there are "security" risks. Does anyone remember the Camgirl Invasion of '01? Suppose it had be EL-JEE-EFF. Back then, even Dear Leader said "I'm glad the new user signups are off. I thought the invasion of the camgirls was a bit nutty, but a truckload of angry new members with an agenda to run into the ground could have been a lot worse. "
posted by jpoulos at 10:12 AM on December 1, 2004


Kibo is way, way funnier. But, tastes will vary.

Kibo is way, way funnier. But tastes vary much like bananas and toothpaste.
posted by Shane at 10:14 AM on December 1, 2004


(Actually, my first link there doesn't point to the camgirls incident, but something else. I can't find the camgirls thread(s).)
posted by jpoulos at 10:15 AM on December 1, 2004


(Here it is. I shut up now.)
posted by jpoulos at 10:17 AM on December 1, 2004


Plus, there are "security" risks. Does anyone remember the Camgirl Invasion of '01?

I remember the flying monkey invasion of '05. Sometimes it's all I can remember. The blood, the napalm-stench, the oozing stickiness of bananas underfoot that sucked some of our boots right off our feet. And the shrieking!

"EEEEEEK! EEEEEK! EEEEEEK!"

Bananas and toothpaste...

Is this what they call PTSD?
posted by Shane at 10:20 AM on December 1, 2004


So is naxosaxur's catchphrase calling someone "Mr ____Pants"?

Also, I think we should send a delegation to ark and ask Kibo to join.
posted by kenko at 10:27 AM on December 1, 2004


Did anyone actually look for more than a second at the site the link on that post goes to? It ain't the websters.com that everyone and their mother uses, and I've never seen it before.

It seems to be a personal site from a college professor that's a pretty big word freak (and I mean freak in a good way). Personally, I found the websters-dictionary-online.org site to be pretty interesting - a good example of what a web dictionary should be as opposed to what we've come to expect one to be (and what it seems most people assumed it to be from just a cursory at the link). This websters-dictionary-online.org appears to be a meta-dictionary that includes not just a word's definition, but it's translations into a dozen or so languages, biblical references, general usage frequency broken down by parts of speech, frequency of use on web pages, and a bunch of other cool stuff, along with the expected usage examples, antonyms and crosswords. And if you highlight any word on the page and type "D", you get a pop-up definition of that word.

The wording and format of the post was truly horrible, but I think the site linked to is worthy of discussion as part of the best of the web, and a site on the web that I wouldn't have known about if mr. notmtwain hadn't posted it here on metafilter.
posted by dchase at 10:30 AM on December 1, 2004


metafilter: the practiced dicking about of the elderly
posted by quonsar at 10:36 AM on December 1, 2004


Because people always read the EULA. Always.

True enough. But if we made it binding somehow, as in violate these precepts enough times and your outta here, it could be effective.
posted by jonmc at 10:42 AM on December 1, 2004


i was highly amused by the deletion reason. bad formatting can be easily fixed by the admin, as can a fouled up link or what have you. blaming the deletion on formatting is wimping out. or just mean.
posted by quonsar at 10:43 AM on December 1, 2004


He pasted direct from a post in his blog, hence the format thing.
It was lame, but then so is he now, having broken his leg last week.
Send flowers.
posted by apocalypse miaow at 10:47 AM on December 1, 2004


Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me(fi),
I lift my lamp beside the golden door
posted by johnny novak at 10:52 AM on December 1, 2004


Meanwhile, 'blog' is Merriam-Webster's Word of the Year.
posted by liam at 11:01 AM on December 1, 2004


quonsar has just accused somebody else of being mean. I have no response to that - I'm just pointing it out. Anyway, dchase, maybe you're right - I've known about this site for a while, but maybe it's not so well known.

So, I formally apologize for being amused and hereby retract my amusement.
posted by taz at 11:03 AM on December 1, 2004


I think the best solution is to get a better faq/posting/commenting guide, and to lengthen the waiting periods to post and comment. - naxosaxur

There's always room for improvement, but the wiki and the current FAQ are sufficient if you read them both. The FAQ can be scanned quickly, perhaps too quickly, and the wiki consulted first before asking a question (just like google is a good thing to consult before asking metafilter).

A little consideration goes a long way. But I don't think consideration can be taught by extending the waiting period or creating other barriers like comment waiting periods, Mefi EULAs, etc.

Like many cultures or subcultures with a sense of membership (and sometimes an offer of it): people on both sides need to be willing to accept the acculturation process, or close the doors again.

On preview: jonmc the EULA-like measures would be good for kicking people to the curb after they've messed up. Not to say it is without merit from the initial and formalized punitive message standpoint: first things first - our way or the highway. But is that the kind of place you want MetaFilter to be? Or, feel it needs to become to protect what you've come to cherish?
posted by safetyfork at 11:05 AM on December 1, 2004


bad formatting can be easily fixed by the admin, as can a fouled up link or what have you.

Sure it can, but why should it? There isn't exactly a shortage of people with things to post. If someone cannot figure out how to format something they should spent some more time reading the site.
posted by timeistight at 11:05 AM on December 1, 2004


Great posts. I am left with only one question. What's a n00b?





Let the feather ruffling begin. I am only kidding.
posted by Lola_G at 11:07 AM on December 1, 2004


True enough. But if we made it binding somehow, as in violate these precepts enough times and your outta here, it could be effective.

Ummmm... there is a statement in the New Users page that says, "...all new users have a one-time $5 charge, to help defray these costs. Keep in mind this is a donation towards the server, and not a purchase. If you sign up an account to pimp your product, act like an ass, or generally just do things that break the guidelines you will be booted and there will be no refunded donations."
posted by Doohickie at 11:10 AM on December 1, 2004


What's a n00b?

Check my profile. Under "Occupation".
posted by Doohickie at 11:11 AM on December 1, 2004


are there as many new users as people keep claiming? matt pointed out elsewhere that the number increments when they register, but they don't get to play 'til they pay (and implied the pay-up rate was about 1 in 4, iirc).

also, dchase makes a good point.
posted by andrew cooke at 11:17 AM on December 1, 2004


>>So is naxosaxur's catchphrase calling someone "Mr ____Pants"?

kenko, are you masturbating while you read this? Ms. Bitchy McCuntyPants? WTF is this about? If you have a problem, don't air your grievances inappropriately and randomly into a completely unrelated thread. But just stop it already. You’re boring. I’m yawning.
posted by naxosaxur at 11:20 AM on December 1, 2004


I contend that the front page of metafilter is better with the new blood, a lot better.

Absolutely. And so are the comments inside. But then, we knew that they would be...didn't we?

We could very well get a whole bunch of people who don't realize there's anything wrong with blatant self-linking or quadruple posting.

You mean just like we did for most of the site's life before the doors were barred? I think we'll survive.
posted by rushmc at 11:29 AM on December 1, 2004


Thanks for all your kind words. I was really excited about the Websters Dictionary Online site and I did think that it was a lot different than the other online dictionaries I had seen. My encounter with it really did result from my lookup of the word spew and I was totally overwhelmed with the volume of information that was thrown at me. I had written about it on one of my blogs last fall but haven't gotten many people to that particular site.

I have been patiently waiting to become a poster to Metafilter for a long time and I apologize for having violated the norms and conventions. I was somewhat surprised after having waited so long that the fee was only $5 and suggest that you increase it to $50 to accomodate the inevitable aggrevation that comes with admitting new members.
posted by notmtwain at 11:30 AM on December 1, 2004


Were you as brilliant and witty then as you are today?

Whatever MetaFilter he's reading; I want it.
posted by nthdegx at 11:31 AM on December 1, 2004


Someone's knocking at the door
Somebody's ringing the bell
Someone's knocking at the door
Somebody's ringing the bell
Do me a favor, open the door and let 'em in

posted by SpaceCadet at 11:39 AM on December 1, 2004


I would go so far as to say that there are fewer wilfully ignorant knuckleheads to have come out of the November 3000 than from the April 150.

And I believe that if there were an invasion of a mob with an agenda, we'd be able to take their money and absorb them pretty quickly. Don't let those 800-comment threads on the one-topic wacko sites intimidate you.

We will not have Matt's Magic Sorta-Working Discourse Machine shut down by ignorant idiots, wherever they come from or for whatever reason. And the relative civility and erudition of the November 3000 reinforces that in my mind.


Now. Ms. Bitchy McCuntyPants?
I think I have a costume for next Hallowe'en!
posted by chicobangs at 11:40 AM on December 1, 2004


Fucking spewing n00bs.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 11:42 AM on December 1, 2004


qoou plo
qoou mau

two username suggestions...
posted by andrew cooke at 11:42 AM on December 1, 2004


But if we made it binding somehow

jonmc, I first read this as "...made it blinding somehow..." which would actually solve a lot of problems.
posted by papercake at 11:43 AM on December 1, 2004


would you like to buy a pencil, papercake?
posted by jonmc at 11:44 AM on December 1, 2004


Ms. Bitchy McCuntyPants

That should annoy me, but instead it makes me giggle.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:47 AM on December 1, 2004


Got one, thanks.

=====-
posted by papercake at 11:48 AM on December 1, 2004


"Fucking spewing n00bs."

Hey, at least it's not a quote and a link to the day's lead NYT story.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 11:50 AM on December 1, 2004


notmtwain - glad you showed up here; I'm sorry I thought your post was a joke (really). The problem with the $50 idea, is that a lot of people in a lot of countries find even $5 to be quite difficult, and may not even have a way of transferring money (no credit card). So as it is, at least some of those people can either afford that much/have a way to pay that much online/can find someone willing to pay it for them.
posted by taz at 11:56 AM on December 1, 2004


No keep the n00bs coming. I laughed so hard at that thread that I cried. That was awesome, and will provide fodder for in-jokes for years.

(Hee. He said retardulousness!)
posted by SpecialK at 12:00 PM on December 1, 2004


The problem with the $50 idea, is that a lot of people in a lot of countries find even $5 to be quite difficult...

I just figured the $5 was some small arbitrary amount to prevent random people from showing up and talking about stabbing commies until they got banned. That the amount isn't $50 is that it's difficult to justify in charging such a high amount for something that while is a great community, is really just a spectacularly well made blog.
posted by Arch Stanton at 12:04 PM on December 1, 2004


Bring 'em on.

Has anyone else noticed that since the influx of new users MeFi suddenly works again? I haven't seen our buddy Jrun in quite some time, the front page has compelling content, there are lots of high numbers for those so inclined to pick on... this is a bad thing?
posted by cedar at 12:25 PM on December 1, 2004


Heh. Welcome to the life of every other community on the internet with even semi-open registration.
posted by darukaru at 12:26 PM on December 1, 2004


Geez, Arch Stanton. Don't you know there's millions of people out there who have computers and broadband, but they just don't have the five bucks to pay for an account. I propose a Universal Access tax on all existing users to pay for access all those who are too cheap to cough up can't afford the five bucks.
posted by keswick at 12:26 PM on December 1, 2004


I haven't seen our buddy Jrun in quite some time,

Chicken/Egg. Matt jacked up the server a few weeks ago. Which is why he opened up signups.

the front page has compelling content,

the election's over
posted by jpoulos at 12:28 PM on December 1, 2004


Tell it like is, keswick! These people are just playing poor. Pay no attention!

/mr. FreeiPods Idjitpants
posted by taz at 12:46 PM on December 1, 2004


jpoulos: This isn't directed at you but I wonder how much of the reservations about newbies aren't based in the fear of being supplanted. There are several (as in, more than a few but less than many) people who have invested years into developing a MeFi persona.

We have the snarky guy, the pedant, the gay guy, the conservative, the anarchist... usually more than one in any pigeonhole but eventually someone gayer, snarkier or more knowledgeable is going to come along.

Despite the occasional flurry of new members this has essentially been a closed community for quite some time. I keep hearing about allowing the noobs time to settle in and adjust to the community norms... fuck that, let's change the norms. They're going to outnumber us soon so we may as well go with the flow and let things take their natural course. Who knows, it may even be better.
posted by cedar at 12:47 PM on December 1, 2004


I wonder how much of the reservations about newbies aren't based in the fear of being supplanted.

I don't know. Nothing is going to keep quonsar from being quonsar. There is a fear, though, that the character of this community--which is something else we've all worked to develop over several years--could go away. The site may have its flaws, but at least it's not livejournal.

Is this how the conservatives feel about teh gheys?
posted by jpoulos at 12:57 PM on December 1, 2004


Ooh! Can I be "the Professor"?!?

(I sure don't want to be "Gilligan"!)
posted by Doohickie at 1:03 PM on December 1, 2004


Were you as brilliant and witty then as you are today?

Whatever MetaFilter he's reading; I want it.


Well, getting nasty didn't seem to work; I thought maybe flattery was worth a shot, but you saw through me.
posted by Doohickie at 1:04 PM on December 1, 2004


cedar, i think the existing members have been extremely tolerant of the newbie fuck-ups during the past three weeks. I mean, the majority of comments in newbie support threads are lenient and didactic...even straying nauseatingly close to that {{{hugs}}} thing on sites that-shall-not-be-named. To adhere to a 'frat mentality'...there's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of intimidation to deter self-linking, double-posting, and general ass-wankery.
posted by naxosaxur at 1:04 PM on December 1, 2004


It amazes me how worked up people get when new folk penetrate a closed community. Relax, the new folks will figure everything out; the outrage level is far too high in general. I think the new group is overall a success. Frankly, I hope some of the old chuckleheads get fed up and leave, so we can have some new jerks help keep us from getting bored.

fuck that, let's change the norms

let's not and say we did.
posted by norm at 1:07 PM on December 1, 2004


I look forward to the day when comments in every thread eclipse five hundred and I am finally forced to stop desperately seeking attention from the cool kids on metafilter (hi shane! *toes ground)*
posted by The God Complex at 1:22 PM on December 1, 2004


I don't really like being high-profile. I particpate here now as my main online community, and I'm me. Which is a little different than other people, and, I suppose, sometimes annoying. I suppose I have to admit that I like it a little bit that regular mefi lurkers might recognize who I am. But, on the other hand, "Ethereal Bligh" isn't actually me, really. So, on the whole, part of why I'm so happy with the newbies is that I'm hoping I won't stick out as much. Partly my earnestness is what I think seems different about me—the long-time mefites are pretty jaded and a lot of the discourse is really about, well, something besides what it's ostensibly about. But a lot of the new users are painfully earnest. Which I think is great. So, anyway, my feelings are almost exactly the opposite of what cedar is postulating. On the other hand, I think cedar is probably partly right. It is important for a good number of people to be high-profile, "essential" members of a community. Really, there's nothing wrong with that. People hang out here for different reasons.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:28 PM on December 1, 2004


promises to never ever ever {{{{hug}}}} anyone here or to never violate the mefi cardinal sins like double posts, self linking and newsfilters :)
posted by squeak at 1:33 PM on December 1, 2004


(I sure don't want to be "Gilligan"!)

I'd prefer to be the millionaire, myself.
posted by jonmc at 1:33 PM on December 1, 2004


Just two cents from someone who was on the sidelines when people were still wearing flannel, but only now decided to noob it up:

I think in terms of optimizing content, the best approach would be to open up the site to new users every so often -- say for a week each season, or biannually. No need to keep it a secret. Just that way, the folks chomping at the bit can rush the gates, and we can then close shop and wait for the new batch of onlookers to join in. If you're looking to get active folks that want to be a part of the community, I think that would work best...

But of course the place will do just fine either way, and if you ask me, it's been better on the whole since us whippersnappers joined.

That reminds me.... What's the deal with all the lone periods I keep seeing?
posted by drpynchon at 1:42 PM on December 1, 2004


I look forward to the day when comments in every thread eclipse five hundred and I am finally forced to stop desperately seeking attention from the cool kids on metafilter (hi shane! *toes ground)*

*ignores TGC, too cool for everyone*

*kidding*

Aww, you just think I'm a cool kid 'cuz I (e-)hang with t r a c y.

(I sure don't want to be "Gilligan"!)

I'm not cool ... I'm Gilligan!

Just two cents from someone who was on the sidelines when people were still wearing flannel

I still wear flannel. You got something against flannel, take it up with me jonmc.
posted by Shane at 1:47 PM on December 1, 2004


{{{{{n00bs}}}}}
posted by t r a c y at 1:51 PM on December 1, 2004


BTW, JRun farted in my general direction yesterday. Briefly.
posted by A dead Quaker at 2:00 PM on December 1, 2004


Uh, can we not have any more newbies please? Pretty please?
posted by u.n. owen at 10:37 AM EST on December 1


Heh, what you traded a gmail invite for that account 4-5 months ago? What a hypocrite. At least these people paid $5 and are not here looking for content to steal for their job...
posted by Dreamghost at 2:03 PM on December 1, 2004


It was lame, but then so is he now, having broken his leg last week.

*hands apocalypse miaow Comment of the Week award*

Ms. Bitchy McCuntyPants

*hands naxosaxur Coinage of the Month award*

I gotta say, that thread was worth it for the cathartic laughter it provided. And Doohickie is a good sport and an example for all n00bs.
posted by languagehat at 2:03 PM on December 1, 2004


that post might have been the worlds best troll.
posted by dabitch at 2:12 PM on December 1, 2004


If anything, we have been a great source of material these past few days.

n00bs, stand up and take a bow.

Can we talk about something else now?
posted by Lola_G at 2:14 PM on December 1, 2004


Holy heck, I started reading through this thread with the same "the deleted FPP was shite" perspective, but, after checking out the link, it really is something. Notmtwain's post doesn't make clear the contents (it sure looks like it's just pointing to the regular Webster's that is online), but the Webster's Online is pretty damn impressive.

As such, I'd just say: Notmtwain, don't format things funky, and try to anticipate people's reactions to your phrasing (as it was, I suspect most if not all folks would assume the link was to the usual Webster's online, not some funky steroided up superversion).

As for the greater issue at hand, I think the question isn't so much "are newbies good / bad", but "Now that we've let in the lurkers and longtime readers, should we close the gates for a while to prevent random bypassers from entering"? We probably won't get much constructive discussion from the first question, but the second has a bit more promise.

Personally, I think it is somewhat of a good idea. I agree with pikachulolita: "i really do like the practice of getting a whole FLOOD of new users at once so that we can answer the common questions, get it all out of the way, and go from there. that is only accomplished, as far as i know, by opening signups for a little while, then closing them until next time. it's clear we're all more than happy to get to tell all the newbies how to behave and what to say where, but i feel like if signups remain open, that job will become a permanent part of being a metafilter user."

Maybe a rolling signon day (open signups for one day each month, thereby getting all the lurkers from the month but only one day's worth of random people). Or, though it's absolute hell on matt: Don't put anything about signups on the page (or make it vague), and only the people who've read enough to A) Realize mathowie is the leader, B) Find mathowie's email addy, and C) Send an email requesting membership, could be added.

Either way, I don't think it's a critical issue, but pikachulolita's point that showing people the ropes is easy in batches, but not continuously, is quite valid.
posted by Bugbread at 2:41 PM on December 1, 2004


I may be forgetful, but I remember having to wait a month before I spewed forth ...
posted by feelinglistless at 2:49 PM on December 1, 2004


I wouldn't want to make mathowie's life that miserable, bugbread.

Actually, I don't think there's a problem with continuously open memberships, but I do think having posting (and commenting) waiting periods is a good idea ... there's a waiting period when you buy a gun, there should be a waiting period before you go off half-cocked on the front page of MeFi or AxMe. The waiting period should be made very painfully clear.

Now, I also think that, on the revamped signup page, there needs to be a big box saying: "IF YOU BREAK THE RULES YOUR ACCOUNT MAY BE CANCELLED WITHOUT REFUND. These are the rules. This is additional suggested reading."

I also think that there should be some people whom (And, I'm sorry for suggesting this, Matt, because I know you've been against it in the past ... but this is in a limited sense) have proved that they've been really good sports and helped shovel some of the crap for the past several years on this site, and who should be given limited mod powers and contact powers over the new users, new being defined as in the first two weeks of membership (so one week of not being able to fpp and one week of being able to.). Kind of like the welcome wagon. The welcome wagon users would be randomly assigned to the new user when the new user joins, and they can moderate the posts of new users and contact them directly even if they've chosen not to publish their email addresses. That way the new users are given personal guidance by volunteers as they're becoming accultured, they don't clutter up the site, and we don't have endless "n00b" posts like "what does the . mean?" on meTa ...
posted by SpecialK at 3:13 PM on December 1, 2004


spew
posted by moonbird at 3:33 PM on December 1, 2004


oh man, i would hate to be the one assigned to someone who went buck-wild the first week he got to post. "no! DON'T POST THAT! what are you thinking?! oh jesus now you're on metatalk GET DOWN FROM THERE!"

thanks for the shoutout, bugbread! i think the only flaw in my argument might be that people are more likely to ask silly/easily searched questions if they know it's "newbie season" and their behavior likely won't be held too strongly against them. i'm not sure how true that is, but it seems logical, at least. at least in my classes, when the professors are condescending and treat the students like they're stupid, students tend to behave stupidly and don't ante up to the challenge. what do y'all think about that, our esteemed newer users? is that on the money or is it condescending?
posted by pikachulolita at 3:41 PM on December 1, 2004


bugbread... bugmenot

Coincidence? I don't think so.

Burn him, burn him I say.

You know, just in case.
posted by cedar at 3:43 PM on December 1, 2004


That's still 1995 potentially valuable and interesting new folks.

Yeah, n00bs have posted some awesome posts in the last couple days.
posted by BradNelson at 4:06 PM on December 1, 2004


Now is it possible that someone... not me, could repost the link to the Webster's Online Dictionary? (I wouldn't dare.) I first got on to Metafilter through a My Yahoo content posting and I would like a few more of the millions of Yahoo users to know more about this amazing site.

Thank you.
posted by notmtwain at 5:17 PM on December 1, 2004


That dictionary has no words for this.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 6:11 PM on December 1, 2004


is that on the money or is it condescending?

I would say condescending...but no.

apologies to Doohickie in advance, just don't make us look bad anymore ;-)
posted by rooftop secrets at 6:17 PM on December 1, 2004


I would go so far as to say that there are fewer wilfully ignorant knuckleheads to have come out of the November 3000 than from the April 150.

Premature conclusion. I'm sure many are cleverly lying low and biding their time...

We have the snarky guy, the pedant, the gay guy, the conservative, the anarchist...

Wait, am I the pedant? Cuz I really preferred being the sanctimonious guy if it's all the same to you...
posted by rushmc at 7:10 PM on December 1, 2004


Wait, am I the pedant? Cuz I really preferred being the sanctimonious guy if it's all the same to you...

I wanna be the conservative for a while. It looks like fun.
posted by jpoulos at 7:11 PM on December 1, 2004


I wanna be the conservative for a while. It looks like fun.

We'll mail you a seersucker suit, a straw hat and some cigars.
posted by jonmc at 7:17 PM on December 1, 2004


is that on the money or is it condescending

Maybe a little condescending. Think it is understandable though, worried that with 2000+ new users the walls are going to cave in. Going out on a limb: I think some are nervous about us (also think some of the new users are just as nervous about you). Ever since there has been new user sign ups there have been a number of helpful posts directed towards new users. (and yes, I read them and the FAQ, the wiki).

I'd rather be judged on my own screw ups and not because of anyone else's. Will now sit back and wait for the day when no one really cares I joined up on 11/18. :)
posted by squeak at 7:57 PM on December 1, 2004


The new users are supposed to be nervous of us. We are, after all, long of the Gods, that breed of the era of Elite Rare Openings, and were gazed upon with mute admiration by the Lesser Mortals, prior to these dire times of public, commercial registration.

And whatnot.

So far, MeFi has been livier, with better silliness and better conversations. I like the new system.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:41 PM on December 1, 2004


oh, get over yourself! :-)
posted by quonsar at 9:09 PM on December 1, 2004


I wanna be the conservative for a while. It looks like fun.

You should try being a centrist for a while. You think EVERYONE's stupid and overblown. (Actually, I find it refreshing...)
posted by SpecialK at 9:23 PM on December 1, 2004


Special K: Hee. He said retardulousness!

He? HE????? I THINK NOT.

(Ovaries 4 life.)
posted by fricative at 9:28 PM on December 1, 2004


We are, after all, long of the Gods, that breed of the era of Elite Rare Openings

So who do I need to sacrifice in order to avoid the wrath of the fire breathing, smoke belching gods around here?
posted by squeak at 10:27 PM on December 1, 2004


For better or worse, I think I was one of the few fools let in here before the tent fell down over the entrance two years back. I've really enjoyed the new FPP's, and have also enjoyed the hazing. It's felt like Animal House in ASCII, and I've also gotten some cool new links. BEST OF BOTH ENTERTAINMENTS. I love all of it and am really happy some new ideas and interests are on the FP. Also, the closed thread that this thread refers to is great, as well.

This is one of the best communties on the net, especially when it's in conflict. I go to other Msg boards and feel my intelligence draining by the sentence. People are much dumber elsewhere and not challenged. There's a growing curve, you have to appreciate that. But people who want to be here not only become better writers and communicators but they also add value to this crazy science fair show. And come on, we all noobed once.
posted by Peter H at 10:34 PM on December 1, 2004


High and Horse are two words that come to mind from several contributers that just happened to be near a computer on April 1
Seven months ain't too mature in my mind. Lets listen to some of the "old farts" about their views on our invasion
posted by adamvasco at 10:51 PM on December 1, 2004


(Damn. That word "folks" was supposed to have [bushism] tags around it. I don't actually talk like that.)

While we're at it can we also have a moratorium on typo corrections? In a year or two of lurking I've seen the older generation doing that a lot, and it's not necessary.
posted by mono blanco at 4:44 AM on December 2, 2004


Or, though it's absolute hell on matt: Don't put anything about signups on the page (or make it vague), and only the people who've read enough to A) Realize mathowie is the leader, B) Find mathowie's email addy, and C) Send an email requesting membership, could be added.

I tried that shortly after missing the April window. I even tried emailing troutfishing and amberglow and a few others to see if they knew of a back door. I got nothing back from Matt, and sympathetic but nevertheless ineffective responses from one or two others.

Now, I also think that, on the revamped signup page, there needs to be a big box saying: "IF YOU BREAK THE RULES YOUR ACCOUNT MAY BE CANCELLED WITHOUT REFUND. These are the rules. This is additional suggested reading."

The New User page currently says,

"all new users have a one-time $5 charge, to help defray these costs. Keep in mind this is a donation towards the server, and not a purchase. If you sign up an account to pimp your product, act like an ass, or generally just do things that break the guidelines you will be booted and there will be no refunded donations."

I think it's basically covered. In any online community, it is understood that users who break the rules can be punted. The thing is, when there is an influx of noobs, there is a bit of a grace period (thank God!) to account for the learning curve, when Matt does not as strictly enforce the rules. Also, breaking actual "rules" is grounds for canceling someone's account, but most of what people are complaining about are breaking the social mores of the community. That is most effectively dealt with by gentle abuse and harrassment by the oldtimers.

As for the suggestion of providing extensive background material, face it, people just won't read through all that, at least not right away. After all, posting is fun, reading background material isn't. Some people pick up on the norms quickly, some need to be, well, educated by the other members.

If you want to get people to read through some of the background material before joining, make the New User page the first page in a kind of hyperlink treasure hunt where people have to visit several pages that best instruct a person what MeFi is all about before finally getting to the signup page.

But in the end, one can lurk for years and still not totally grasp the full impact of the place. I learned more making a few posts in the last few days than I did in a couple years of lurking.
posted by Doohickie at 6:34 AM on December 2, 2004


While we're at it can we also have a moratorium on typo corrections? In a year or two of lurking I've seen the older generation doing that a lot, and it's not necessary.

Indeed. Several times I've thought to collate the dozen or so samples that occur any given week and mock hell out of 'em all. It's rare indeed that the mistake was so egregious as to require correcting.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:20 AM on December 2, 2004


Um, while the point is well taken, I think the "correction" in question was meant humorously.
posted by languagehat at 2:21 PM on December 2, 2004


2000 new users and, what, five bad n00b posts so far?

Only five? Which five? And please show us how they were worse than five random posts by y'all old-timey folks. (And yes I do talk that way; Bush is really a preppy New Englander who copies us'ns, recall.) I do appreciate your willingness to continue taking new applications for this elite club here, but still.


That's still 1995 potentially valuable and interesting new folks.

Please don't susc1be me to that lsit.

And dammit, I'm still giving myself headaches trying to construct an "FPP" debut that'll be at least half as culturally significant as that animal dildo thing. (Why are there no sex dolls made like balding chubby middle-aged Guinness guzzlers, anyway?)
posted by davy at 6:58 PM on December 3, 2004


It seems kinda funny, but at the same time kinda sad. I've been following the posts here for a while now, without being able to post or respond, and one thing that really stands out is how much people bitch about the quality of other people's posts, and how Matt would approve or disapprove. But I haven't seen Matt really interfere much at all. Do you people really have nothing better to do than act like the mall security guards?
posted by c13 at 7:58 PM on December 6, 2004


one thing that really stands out is how much people bitch about the quality of other people's posts

But my first post did suck (I've been thinking of how I could have done it better), and most of my comments, here and in the Blue Pages, are lame as poo too. So it's a great comfort to me to know that most other people's posts and comments suck too, and that so many people agree there's so much crap on here; to paraphrase Alice Cooper, it makes me feel right at home.
posted by davy at 9:08 PM on December 7, 2004


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